התמלול המלא של Conversation on Selfless Leadership with Major Coleman Vivian | Veterans Day Tribute

00:03:46.632 --> 00:03:47.589 [laughter] 00:03:47.599 --> 00:03:48.949 >> And it turns out I'm too small for 00:03:48.959 --> 00:03:51.509 prison. And so, 00:03:51.519 --> 00:03:54.229 uh, no, like it's very, it's not like 00:03:54.239 --> 00:03:56.149 you see on TV. is probably a lot more 00:03:56.159 --> 00:03:58.149 boring if we're going to be honest. Uh 00:03:58.159 --> 00:04:00.710 it's very much so like 00:04:00.720 --> 00:04:03.429 advising or consulting with a lot of 00:04:03.439 --> 00:04:05.589 PowerPoint in dark rooms with no cell 00:04:05.599 --> 00:04:08.630 phones and no windows. Um but you get to 00:04:08.640 --> 00:04:10.470 do some cool things along the way. Uh 00:04:10.480 --> 00:04:12.949 and it's really just making sure that 00:04:12.959 --> 00:04:15.429 you lay out all the information a bunch 00:04:15.439 --> 00:04:17.189 across a bunch of classified information 00:04:17.199 --> 00:04:19.830 to commanders to pilots to whoever the 00:04:19.840 --> 00:04:21.270 decision makers are and so they have the 00:04:21.280 --> 00:04:22.950 full picture so they can know what the 00:04:22.960 --> 00:04:24.390 threats are to their mission and make 00:04:24.400 --> 00:04:25.830 informed decisions so that we have 00:04:25.840 --> 00:04:27.990 actual mission success. 00:04:28.000 --> 00:04:30.710 >> So out of your five deployments which 00:04:30.720 --> 00:04:34.150 one was your favorite? 00:04:34.160 --> 00:04:36.790 So sometimes deployment is a loose term 00:04:36.800 --> 00:04:38.469 where it's going to sound like, "Oh no, 00:04:38.479 --> 00:04:41.110 poor baby. You had to go to Panama and 00:04:41.120 --> 00:04:42.550 you got to be in Panama during 00:04:42.560 --> 00:04:45.430 Carnival." Like what a hard life or you 00:04:45.440 --> 00:04:47.749 go to Qatar for six months and yes, you 00:04:47.759 --> 00:04:49.189 missed some holidays, but you're there 00:04:49.199 --> 00:04:50.950 for the World Cup and so you get to go 00:04:50.960 --> 00:04:52.390 to three World Cup games at the same 00:04:52.400 --> 00:04:54.390 time. And so uh I would say my favorite 00:04:54.400 --> 00:04:55.670 deployments are probably the ones that 00:04:55.680 --> 00:04:58.150 get let me play a little bit alongside 00:04:58.160 --> 00:05:00.150 the work as well. 00:05:00.160 --> 00:05:03.350 So when you were um deployed, let's just 00:05:03.360 --> 00:05:05.590 say in the Middle East, um what were 00:05:05.600 --> 00:05:07.590 those assignments like versus the ones 00:05:07.600 --> 00:05:09.350 where you were able to go 00:05:09.360 --> 00:05:09.909 >> play? 00:05:09.919 --> 00:05:10.790 >> Yeah. 00:05:10.800 --> 00:05:13.510 >> Um so the first one was Afghanistan, uh 00:05:13.520 --> 00:05:15.909 which was a lot of counter ISIS and 00:05:15.919 --> 00:05:18.070 Afghanistan. And so that one was far 00:05:18.080 --> 00:05:20.390 more of your traditional deployment. Um 00:05:20.400 --> 00:05:22.870 we were there really working on making 00:05:22.880 --> 00:05:24.950 sure that ISIS did not spread across 00:05:24.960 --> 00:05:26.629 other parts of Afghanistan. And so it 00:05:26.639 --> 00:05:27.990 was a lot of counterterrorism work, a 00:05:28.000 --> 00:05:29.590 lot of uh strikes and a lot of 00:05:29.600 --> 00:05:31.510 operations to kind of take them off the 00:05:31.520 --> 00:05:34.070 board. Um and so that was probably the 00:05:34.080 --> 00:05:36.469 biggest most traditional deployment I 00:05:36.479 --> 00:05:38.070 did. Uh the other one would have been 00:05:38.080 --> 00:05:40.950 Qatar, which was also a counterterrorism 00:05:40.960 --> 00:05:43.990 mission, uh working through Iraq, Syria, 00:05:44.000 --> 00:05:46.310 uh and Afghanistan as well. Um the other 00:05:46.320 --> 00:05:47.830 ones were a little bit more the fun 00:05:47.840 --> 00:05:50.870 ones, if you will. Uh it was Panama and 00:05:50.880 --> 00:05:52.870 the Philippines a few times and it was 00:05:52.880 --> 00:05:54.070 ultimately training partner nation 00:05:54.080 --> 00:05:56.310 militaries to do the mission and to be 00:05:56.320 --> 00:05:58.070 able to do counterterrorism or counter 00:05:58.080 --> 00:05:59.749 disaster relief so that we didn't have 00:05:59.759 --> 00:06:01.430 to. So if something popped up in the 00:06:01.440 --> 00:06:03.670 world, it's better that people can that 00:06:03.680 --> 00:06:05.110 countries can help themselves and handle 00:06:05.120 --> 00:06:06.469 it themselves so we don't have to send 00:06:06.479 --> 00:06:08.629 our own US forces. And so those were 00:06:08.639 --> 00:06:10.550 just embedded with partner nation, 00:06:10.560 --> 00:06:12.469 training them, learning their language, 00:06:12.479 --> 00:06:14.070 doing their culture, living life with 00:06:14.080 --> 00:06:16.150 them. And it was the most exciting ones 00:06:16.160 --> 00:06:18.550 I think. So almost in essence like a 00:06:18.560 --> 00:06:19.590 train the trainer 00:06:19.600 --> 00:06:20.070 >> exactly 00:06:20.080 --> 00:06:20.790 >> type setup. 00:06:20.800 --> 00:06:22.150 >> Yeah. 00:06:22.160 --> 00:06:26.790 >> That's neat. So we're talking 11 years 00:06:26.800 --> 00:06:29.110 >> for you. When was that moment where you 00:06:29.120 --> 00:06:31.830 said I wonder what life is going to look 00:06:31.840 --> 00:06:35.029 like or what should it look like post my 00:06:35.039 --> 00:06:36.950 time in in active duty? 00:06:36.960 --> 00:06:40.469 >> Uh I think the one if any of my friends 00:06:40.479 --> 00:06:42.150 know me they're surprised I lasted 11 00:06:42.160 --> 00:06:44.950 years. Um, I think the expectation was 00:06:44.960 --> 00:06:46.790 like of my friend group, I'd be the one 00:06:46.800 --> 00:06:48.550 that was like, "Five years, I'm done. 00:06:48.560 --> 00:06:51.189 I'm out. I'm over it." Um, and I really 00:06:51.199 --> 00:06:53.670 did find fulfillment and joy along those 00:06:53.680 --> 00:06:56.230 11 years. But I would say about 2020 is 00:06:56.240 --> 00:06:58.070

when for like a lot of us was a 00:06:58.080 --> 00:07:00.230 shifting. Uh, and so I think it was the 00:07:00.240 --> 00:07:02.390 combination of my granddad passing away 00:07:02.400 --> 00:07:04.629 and uh, the murder of George Floyd and 00:07:04.639 --> 00:07:07.430 became a question like what am I doing? 00:07:07.440 --> 00:07:08.790 What am I doing for black America? What 00:07:08.800 --> 00:07:10.230 am I doing for like my granddad's 00:07:10.240 --> 00:07:12.550 legacy? um I know what I'm doing for 00:07:12.560 --> 00:07:14.230 America externally, but like what am I 00:07:14.240 --> 00:07:16.070 doing for us internally? And so that's 00:07:16.080 --> 00:07:17.749 when I joined the board of the CT Vivian 00:07:17.759 --> 00:07:19.510 Foundation. It sort of kind of opened my 00:07:19.520 --> 00:07:21.270 aperture as to like what I was 00:07:21.280 --> 00:07:22.309 interested in and what I found 00:07:22.319 --> 00:07:24.790 fulfilling. And so it was a long trek 00:07:24.800 --> 00:07:28.870 from 2020 to 2025 when I got out. 00:07:28.880 --> 00:07:30.469 >> But uh that was kind of the starting of 00:07:30.479 --> 00:07:31.029 it. 00:07:31.039 --> 00:07:33.749 >> Okay. So life post service, do you see 00:07:33.759 --> 00:07:35.589 some similarities 00:07:35.599 --> 00:07:37.830 uh when you were in active duty versus 00:07:37.840 --> 00:07:41.029 now in the public service sector? 00:07:41.039 --> 00:07:43.830 >> Uh yeah, there's parts for sure. Like I 00:07:43.840 --> 00:07:46.309 think being missiondriven and values 00:07:46.319 --> 00:07:47.589 driven I think is one of the big things 00:07:47.599 --> 00:07:49.990 I've been chasing. Uh and I think also 00:07:50.000 --> 00:07:52.629 like you know you deploy with a small 00:07:52.639 --> 00:07:54.309 group of people where you it's like you 00:07:54.319 --> 00:07:55.670 against the world sort of vibe. And I 00:07:55.680 --> 00:07:57.189 think that's very much so like grew up 00:07:57.199 --> 00:07:59.029 playing soccer team sports like you know 00:07:59.039 --> 00:08:01.270 who you're going after. their job is to 00:08:01.280 --> 00:08:02.869 your job is to beat them. Simple as 00:08:02.879 --> 00:08:04.869 that. And I think that like campaign 00:08:04.879 --> 00:08:07.270 life is probably the closest mirror I 00:08:07.280 --> 00:08:08.950 got to that. It's like we know who we're 00:08:08.960 --> 00:08:10.710 trying to beat. It's a small group of 00:08:10.720 --> 00:08:13.110 us. We're exhausted. We're busted. We're 00:08:13.120 --> 00:08:14.309 tired, but we're going to run through a 00:08:14.319 --> 00:08:15.670 wall to get it done. And that's like 00:08:15.680 --> 00:08:17.749 very much so like I'm sure a lot of the 00:08:17.759 --> 00:08:19.830 vets out there can speak to like that's 00:08:19.840 --> 00:08:21.110 similar to what a deployment is like, 00:08:21.120 --> 00:08:22.629 similar to what like a small team, 00:08:22.639 --> 00:08:25.589 military team is like is one mission 00:08:25.599 --> 00:08:27.990 running through a wall to get it done. 00:08:28.000 --> 00:08:32.149 >> I I love it. So there is now 00:08:32.159 --> 00:08:35.990 uh reserve in the air force, 00:08:36.000 --> 00:08:39.110 board chair of a nonprofit 00:08:39.120 --> 00:08:41.829 and then also working uh to protect 00:08:41.839 --> 00:08:43.909 voting rights 00:08:43.919 --> 00:08:47.750 for you like walk me through a day where 00:08:47.760 --> 00:08:52.310 you let's say have to balance both hats. 00:08:52.320 --> 00:08:55.829 Uh, I would say it was week, what was 00:08:55.839 --> 00:08:57.750 it? October, 00:08:57.760 --> 00:08:59.350 I think we had a board retreat sometime. 00:08:59.360 --> 00:09:01.590 I lost track of time. October 3rd. Uh, 00:09:01.600 --> 00:09:04.230 yeah, my mom is saying three. [laughter] 00:09:04.240 --> 00:09:07.750 So, October 3rd and it was a month of 00:09:07.760 --> 00:09:09.350 where I was we were prepping for that. 00:09:09.360 --> 00:09:11.269 It was the buildup to what I ran was 00:09:11.279 --> 00:09:13.269 like our poll watcher program for the 00:09:13.279 --> 00:09:14.790 Georgia Democratic Party. So, I was 00:09:14.800 --> 00:09:18.790 deploying uh over 800 plus poll watchers 00:09:18.800 --> 00:09:21.430 across Georgia's 159 counties over the 00:09:21.440 --> 00:09:23.190 3-week period of early voting. And so, 00:09:23.200 --> 00:09:24.630 we were in that final bit of like 00:09:24.640 --> 00:09:26.470 scheduling and assigning all of those. 00:09:26.480 --> 00:09:28.870 And it landed the same weekend as the 00:09:28.880 --> 00:09:31.670 board retreat. Um, and so it was a bit 00:09:31.680 --> 00:09:34.870 of knowing when I had to not sleep, 00:09:34.880 --> 00:09:36.389 knowing when I had to look my mom, who's 00:09:36.399 --> 00:09:37.670 executive director, in the eye and like, 00:09:37.680 --> 00:09:40.710 I wish I could do it today, but I can't. 00:09:40.720 --> 00:09:42.070 um and hoping that she could help pick 00:09:42.080 --> 00:09:45.030 up some slack and looking at my bosses 00:09:45.040 --> 00:09:47.350 and like, "Hey, I know you need me to be 00:09:47.360 --> 00:09:49.509 here. I can give you everything up until 00:09:49.519 --> 00:09:51.750 this day, but that day, like, I have to 00:09:51.760 --> 00:09:53.509 be present for the board retreat." And 00:09:53.519 --> 00:09:55.750 so, it is knowing that you're going to 00:09:55.760 --> 00:09:57.910 disappoint somebody at some point and 00:09:57.920 --> 00:09:59.350 learning to give yourself a little bit 00:09:59.360 --> 00:10:00.790 of grace and that you can't be 00:10:00.800 --> 00:10:02.870 everywhere at all times. 00:10:02.880 --> 00:10:04.710 >> I think those were bars right there for 00:10:04.720 --> 00:10:06.550 all of us, managing multiple hats and 00:10:06.560 --> 00:10:07.829 having people resp that we're 00:10:07.839 --> 00:10:10.470 responsible to. 00:10:10.480 --> 00:10:14.630 I want to probe further into now your 00:10:14.640 -->

00:10:15.750 personal life. 00:10:15.760 --> 00:10:16.710 >> Probe away, sir. 00:10:16.720 --> 00:10:18.317 >> Oh, this is getting good, y'all. 00:10:18.327 --> 00:10:20.069 [laughter] 00:10:20.079 --> 00:10:21.670 >> But 00:10:21.680 --> 00:10:23.990 you're in a unique place. And I say that 00:10:24.000 --> 00:10:28.069 from upbringing, right? Um, you had a 00:10:28.079 --> 00:10:30.710 really good upbringing. We tend to like 00:10:30.720 --> 00:10:32.389 your parents, you know, a little bit 00:10:32.399 --> 00:10:32.710 here, 00:10:32.720 --> 00:10:34.310 >> right? 00:10:34.320 --> 00:10:36.470 It's fine. But because of the 00:10:36.480 --> 00:10:38.790 upbringing, it puts you in diverse 00:10:38.800 --> 00:10:41.110 environments. 00:10:41.120 --> 00:10:43.670 You weren't, you know, having to 00:10:43.680 --> 00:10:46.069 struggle like, you know, another person 00:10:46.079 --> 00:10:48.150 who may be, you know, who might look 00:10:48.160 --> 00:10:50.710 like you. You had opportunity given to 00:10:50.720 --> 00:10:53.590 you. We're talking private education. 00:10:53.600 --> 00:10:57.190 We're talking Air Force Academy, you 00:10:57.200 --> 00:10:59.190 know, 00:10:59.200 --> 00:11:02.790 yet and still you said, "I've got to do 00:11:02.800 --> 00:11:05.350 something." What is that moment? 00:11:05.360 --> 00:11:07.509 Especially the the young people I talk 00:11:07.519 --> 00:11:10.389 to, they feel like 00:11:10.399 --> 00:11:12.470 what's everybody tripping about like 00:11:12.480 --> 00:11:15.509 what's like life is good like you know I 00:11:15.519 --> 00:11:18.710 got friends I'm doing this like for you 00:11:18.720 --> 00:11:20.949 what was that moment that out of all the 00:11:20.959 --> 00:11:22.710 and we could say it the privilege that 00:11:22.720 --> 00:11:26.069 you've had throughout your life you said 00:11:26.079 --> 00:11:29.750 I want to give back and make a tangible 00:11:29.760 --> 00:11:33.030 difference. 00:11:33.040 --> 00:11:34.470 I did not think that's the personal life 00:11:34.480 --> 00:11:35.590 question you were going to ask. So, this 00:11:35.600 --> 00:11:37.670 is easy. I was like, I don't know where 00:11:37.680 --> 00:11:40.870 Vince is going. Um, I don't think it was 00:11:40.880 --> 00:11:43.910 like a a single moment. I think it is 00:11:43.920 --> 00:11:46.069 something that was like 00:11:46.079 --> 00:11:49.110 >> practiced around me throughout my entire 00:11:49.120 --> 00:11:50.710 life. Like my 00:11:50.720 --> 00:11:52.550 >> Yeah. Like my parents are people who 00:11:52.560 --> 00:11:54.389 give back. Like if anyone needs 00:11:54.399 --> 00:11:56.150 something from my parents, they do it. 00:11:56.160 --> 00:11:58.630 And they are very willing to say yes to 00:11:58.640 --> 00:12:00.470 just about anyone for just about 00:12:00.480 --> 00:12:03.030 anything. boundaries of course, but like 00:12:03.040 --> 00:12:04.710 they're very generous people and I've 00:12:04.720 --> 00:12:06.389 seen them

like pour into other people 00:12:06.399 --> 00:12:08.949 despite themselves. I've seen them um 00:12:08.959 --> 00:12:10.710 choose an act of service and a life of 00:12:10.720 --> 00:12:12.790 service to via the military. I grew up 00:12:12.800 --> 00:12:15.430 with my granddad who was also like chose 00:12:15.440 --> 00:12:16.949 the more humble route in many ways 00:12:16.959 --> 00:12:18.710 instead of like piggybacking from the 00:12:18.720 --> 00:12:20.790 civil rights on to like politics or to 00:12:20.800 --> 00:12:22.870 like you know corporate or any of the 00:12:22.880 --> 00:12:24.389 other things. I think he lived a life of 00:12:24.399 --> 00:12:26.310 service. And so I think it was very much 00:12:26.320 --> 00:12:29.990 so practiced for me over time, shown to 00:12:30.000 --> 00:12:32.230 me. And so I think it just became a 00:12:32.240 --> 00:12:33.910 practice of sacrifice and a practice of 00:12:33.920 --> 00:12:37.110 service that became a discipline. Uh and 00:12:37.120 --> 00:12:38.470 you know, you wake up, you blink, you're 00:12:38.480 --> 00:12:40.389 like, "Oh, this is who I am because this 00:12:40.399 --> 00:12:41.990 is what I've been taught and what I've 00:12:42.000 --> 00:12:45.030 been doing for a long time." model. You 00:12:45.040 --> 00:12:48.550 know, I'm I'm thinking of the parent and 00:12:48.560 --> 00:12:52.069 even the grandparent who especially if 00:12:52.079 --> 00:12:54.710 they hang around our church are having 00:12:54.720 --> 00:12:57.829 real conversations and they're not I 00:12:57.839 --> 00:13:00.069 don't think burying their kids' heads in 00:13:00.079 --> 00:13:01.670 the sand as it were. 00:13:01.680 --> 00:13:03.269 >> Only when we misbehaved. 00:13:03.279 --> 00:13:04.069 >> We 00:13:04.079 --> 00:13:05.269 >> only when we misbehaved. 00:13:05.279 --> 00:13:08.470 >> Yes. Buried in the We're not going to 00:13:08.480 --> 00:13:09.990 talk about that today. It's kind of 00:13:10.000 --> 00:13:12.550 recorded. 00:13:12.560 --> 00:13:15.829 But but what advice would you say to 00:13:15.839 --> 00:13:19.350 parents who on one hand want to protect 00:13:19.360 --> 00:13:22.470 their children from the ills of society 00:13:22.480 --> 00:13:25.590 but on the other hand have a desire to 00:13:25.600 --> 00:13:27.350 make sure that they have informed 00:13:27.360 --> 00:13:34.230 children in a society. 00:13:34.240 --> 00:13:35.670 >> Yeah. I mean that's a hard one. I am not 00:13:35.680 --> 00:13:37.829 a parent and so I think take this with 00:13:37.839 --> 00:13:39.590 whatever grain assault that it comes 00:13:39.600 --> 00:13:42.629 with. Uh, I think that like kids are 00:13:42.639 --> 00:13:44.310 smarter and more resilient than what we 00:13:44.320 --> 00:13:46.710 give them credit for. And you can put 00:13:46.720 --> 00:13:48.870 them in a bubble all you want, but 00:13:48.880 --> 00:13:50.230 eventually that bubble's going to get 00:13:50.240 --> 00:13:52.470 popped. And I think it's like how you 00:13:52.480 --> 00:13:55.110 give them small doses uh, and how you 00:13:55.120 --> 00:13:58.069 like the the way the conversation looks 00:13:58.079 --> 00:14:00.389 changes over time. Like the first 00:14:00.399 --> 00:14:01.990 conversation about like you're black and 00:14:02.000 --> 00:14:03.829 cops might treat you different when 00:14:03.839 --> 00:14:05.590 you're 10 looks very different from how 00:14:05.600 --> 00:14:08.069 you have it when you're 18. Um, and I 00:14:08.079 --> 00:14:10.150 think that finding the way to add nuance 00:14:10.160 --> 00:14:12.389 as it goes. But like to pretend that the 00:14:12.399 --> 00:14:13.829 world is different and the world is safe 00:14:13.839 --> 00:14:16.470 and the world is pretty. I mean, it's 00:14:16.480 --> 00:14:18.710 not. But that's also why like you build 00:14:18.720 --> 00:14:20.230 them up because you want them to help 00:14:20.240 --> 00:14:22.790 make it prettier and better and a little 00:14:22.800 --> 00:14:24.790 more like less terrible for the world. 00:14:24.800 --> 00:14:26.629 And so like they can't fix something if 00:14:26.639 --> 00:14:28.870 they never get told it's broken. 00:14:28.880 --> 00:14:30.949 >> That's really good. No, that's I mean we 00:14:30.959 --> 00:14:33.509 I wanted the perspective of someone who 00:14:33.519 --> 00:14:35.670 grew up in it and what worked and what 00:14:35.680 --> 00:14:37.990 registered and what what rang home for 00:14:38.000 --> 00:14:40.150 you. Let's go even further into your 00:14:40.160 --> 00:14:40.949 personal life. 00:14:40.959 --> 00:14:43.269 >> I'm ready. 00:14:43.279 --> 00:14:47.350 >> Your friend group is ultra diverse. So 00:14:47.360 --> 00:14:50.949 even in all of this to till today like 00:14:50.959 --> 00:14:52.790 you have one of the most diverse friend 00:14:52.800 --> 00:14:56.629 groups that I know in light of 00:14:56.639 --> 00:15:00.069 everything that's going on. How do you 00:15:00.079 --> 00:15:02.710 and how do you all maintain 00:15:02.720 --> 00:15:06.150 friendship, genuine friendship 00:15:06.160 --> 00:15:08.389 in the midst of so many differences? 00:15:08.399 --> 00:15:11.990 >> Yeah, I think it probably really the 00:15:12.000 --> 00:15:13.750 diversity of like the quality of the 00:15:13.760 --> 00:15:15.350 friends. Like I think you know there are 00:15:15.360 --> 00:15:17.110 friends that are work friends, friends 00:15:17.120 --> 00:15:18.470 that are drinking friends, friends that 00:15:18.480 --> 00:15:20.550 are whatever, soccer friends. Um, I 00:15:20.560 --> 00:15:22.230 think like a lot of my military friends 00:15:22.240 --> 00:15:25.030 that really locked in was in Miami, 00:15:25.040 --> 00:15:28.790 which was my 2019 to 2022 time frame. 00:15:28.800 --> 00:15:30.710 Um, and I think it's also when I decided 00:15:30.720 --> 00:15:34.470 to stop curbing some of my opinions. And 00:15:34.480 --> 00:15:36.310 I think I chose like post George Floyd, 00:15:36.320 -->

00:15:37.350 I was like, I'm going to be as black as 00:15:37.360 --> 00:15:39.110 I want to be. And either you can get on 00:15:39.120 --> 00:15:40.790 board or you can get out of the way. And 00:15:40.800 --> 00:15:42.230 I think that like when you start being 00:15:42.240 --> 00:15:44.389 the fullness of who you are, you invite 00:15:44.399 --> 00:15:46.069 people to be the fullness of who they 00:15:46.079 --> 00:15:47.670 are. And so like now you're not getting 00:15:47.680 --> 00:15:49.189 shallow friendships. And I think when 00:15:49.199 --> 00:15:52.230 you guys choose to sort of like say the 00:15:52.240 --> 00:15:54.230 thing out loud and ask the questions and 00:15:54.240 --> 00:15:55.910 not be like tiptoe around things, it 00:15:55.920 --> 00:15:57.670 lets you figure out who's the ride or 00:15:57.680 --> 00:15:59.670 die and who's not. And so I think part 00:15:59.680 --> 00:16:01.749 of the shift was just me. Uh I think 00:16:01.759 --> 00:16:03.189 part of the shift was like a lot of 00:16:03.199 --> 00:16:04.870 society started asking questions. And so 00:16:04.880 --> 00:16:06.389 we all kind of leaned into that. But I 00:16:06.399 --> 00:16:08.790 would say like post that I probably have 00:16:08.800 --> 00:16:10.790 some of the like the best friendships 00:16:10.800 --> 00:16:12.949 that I've had. And like it is they are 00:16:12.959 --> 00:16:14.949 different. I got friends from Missouri 00:16:14.959 --> 00:16:18.629 who hunt, who vote liberal, who I have, 00:16:18.639 --> 00:16:19.910 you know, black friends who grew up in 00:16:19.920 --> 00:16:21.590 New York. I have Asian friends who grew 00:16:21.600 --> 00:16:24.230 up in California. Uh, and yet we all 00:16:24.240 --> 00:16:27.110 find a way to kind of ask ourselves the 00:16:27.120 --> 00:16:29.350 dumb questions and make sure that we're 00:16:29.360 --> 00:16:30.629 just saying it because it's easier to do 00:16:30.639 --> 00:16:32.949 that than to put our heads in. 00:16:32.959 --> 00:16:36.470 >> That's good. That's good. So, I'm I'm 00:16:36.480 --> 00:16:39.749 going back to that 2019 2020 period for 00:16:39.759 --> 00:16:45.110 you. To me, what I'm sensing you say is 00:16:45.120 --> 00:16:48.870 there was a time of I'm in leadership, 00:16:48.880 --> 00:16:51.430 but I want to also have a life of 00:16:51.440 --> 00:16:53.269 service. 00:16:53.279 --> 00:16:56.550 Talk to me about that formation of those 00:16:56.560 --> 00:17:03.350 two things together. 00:17:03.360 --> 00:17:05.669 I don't know that it ever split. I think 00:17:05.679 --> 00:17:08.549 that like the military gave me gave me 00:17:08.559 --> 00:17:10.150 leadership where I got to like directly 00:17:10.160 --> 00:17:12.630 affect people's lives. Like I've walked 00:17:12.640 --> 00:17:15.429 troops through divorces, through 00:17:15.439 --> 00:17:17.669 domestic abuse, through alcoholism, 00:17:17.679 --> 00:17:19.829 through uh through a lot of different 00:17:19.839 --> 00:17:21.189 things. And I think that is a very 00:17:21.199 --> 00:17:23.189 unique specific type of service. Like 00:17:23.199 --> 00:17:25.990 it's a very tangible touch. Um but I 00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:27.990 would say like you take it past that and 00:17:28.000 --> 00:17:30.070 the military 00:17:30.080 --> 00:17:32.230 the focus right now is counter China. 00:17:32.240 --> 00:17:34.470 And do I love America being on top? 00:17:34.480 --> 00:17:36.390 Absolutely. Is it the thing that gets me 00:17:36.400 --> 00:17:38.070 up in the morning every day? Really 00:17:38.080 --> 00:17:40.070 isn't. Um it's like I call it a 00:17:40.080 --> 00:17:41.510 sufficing ice cream cone. We just want 00:17:41.520 --> 00:17:42.789 to be we want to be number one because 00:17:42.799 --> 00:17:44.710 we're used to being number one. Um and 00:17:44.720 --> 00:17:47.830 so it stopped being fulfilling in terms 00:17:47.840 --> 00:17:49.590 of that type of service. So the oneonone 00:17:49.600 --> 00:17:51.909 service were good. The like holistic 00:17:51.919 --> 00:17:54.549 systematic service less so. And so I 00:17:54.559 --> 00:17:55.830 think that's kind of what shifted is 00:17:55.840 --> 00:17:58.390 like I wanted to do my job to be a 00:17:58.400 --> 00:17:59.750 service that could touch people's lives 00:17:59.760 --> 00:18:01.510 personally but also like felt like I was 00:18:01.520 --> 00:18:03.590 feeding into a system and like a 00:18:03.600 --> 00:18:05.110 particular mission that brought me 00:18:05.120 --> 00:18:06.390 value. 00:18:06.400 --> 00:18:09.990 >> So in this journey from outside looking 00:18:10.000 --> 00:18:14.630 in you leave your good government job 00:18:14.640 --> 00:18:16.310 >> that we do 00:18:16.320 --> 00:18:19.669 >> and you go get education and go get your 00:18:19.679 --> 00:18:23.029 masters at Harvard. I have to say that I 00:18:23.039 --> 00:18:24.470 have friends who went to Harvard. I just 00:18:24.480 --> 00:18:31.990 wanted to say that you all [laughter] 00:18:32.000 --> 00:18:34.630 and then you come back 00:18:34.640 --> 00:18:39.270 almost like you wipe the slate clean 00:18:39.280 --> 00:18:42.070 because again, you know, to know Coleman 00:18:42.080 --> 00:18:45.110 is to know someone you would not know 00:18:45.120 --> 00:18:46.789 all the things that he's accomplished. 00:18:46.799 --> 00:18:49.750 He's not leading uh his his life like 00:18:49.760 --> 00:18:51.909 I've done this, I've done that. So you 00:18:51.919 --> 00:18:53.510 in essence left all of what you 00:18:53.520 --> 00:18:55.190 accomplished before and you said I need 00:18:55.200 --> 00:18:58.470 to figure out this new life. How has 00:18:58.480 --> 00:19:01.909 that journey been? 00:19:01.919 --> 00:19:03.510 >> It's 00:19:03.520 --> 00:19:05.510 it messes with the mind a little bit. I 00:19:05.520 --> 00:19:08.470 think it's a struggle to at least for me 00:19:08.480 --> 00:19:11.029 uh one it's like a lot of identity work 00:19:11.039 --> 00:19:13.110

like the military is an allconsuming 00:19:13.120 --> 00:19:16.230 institution and you I cut my hair a 00:19:16.240 --> 00:19:17.430 certain way because of them. I didn't 00:19:17.440 --> 00:19:19.029 grow facial hair because of them. I 00:19:19.039 --> 00:19:20.789 didn't have a phone on me 20 most of the 00:19:20.799 --> 00:19:22.950 workday because of them. Like it changes 00:19:22.960 --> 00:19:24.549 and shifts like how you show up in the 00:19:24.559 --> 00:19:26.230 world. So to remove yourself from that, 00:19:26.240 --> 00:19:27.590 you got to figure out like what was the 00:19:27.600 --> 00:19:29.750 Air Force's and what was mine and kind 00:19:29.760 --> 00:19:31.029 of work through that. So I think that's 00:19:31.039 --> 00:19:32.789 number one is just the woo woo identity 00:19:32.799 --> 00:19:35.270 work of it all. Um the practical side 00:19:35.280 --> 00:19:37.590 was like I had to take steps back to go 00:19:37.600 --> 00:19:39.350 forward. And I think that was the hard 00:19:39.360 --> 00:19:42.310 part of I had I had a steady paycheck. I 00:19:42.320 --> 00:19:45.553 had benefits and I was like okay bye. 00:19:45.563 --> 00:19:47.750 [laughter] And so like how far back am I 00:19:47.760 --> 00:19:49.510 willing to go in terms of like the the 00:19:49.520 --> 00:19:51.110 amount of leadership and experience I 00:19:51.120 --> 00:19:53.590 had um and control I had if we're going 00:19:53.600 --> 00:19:57.909 to be honest and probably power too 00:19:57.919 --> 00:19:59.750 and then how much money am I making and 00:19:59.760 --> 00:20:02.150 so how far back am I willing to go to 00:20:02.160 --> 00:20:03.430 then go forward and I think it's a 00:20:03.440 --> 00:20:05.510 balance of like figuring out my value my 00:20:05.520 --> 00:20:08.390 worth and being able to chart like a 00:20:08.400 --> 00:20:10.390 progressive path forward and I don't 00:20:10.400 --> 00:20:11.909 know that I always got it right but I 00:20:11.919 --> 00:20:14.230 had really good friends and I had family 00:20:14.240 --> 00:20:15.350 who let 00:20:15.360 --> 00:20:18.230 live in their house while I was figuring 00:20:18.240 --> 00:20:20.470 it out and not pay rent. And so like I 00:20:20.480 --> 00:20:21.909 think I was blessed to have people who 00:20:21.919 --> 00:20:23.430 kind of pushed me forward and spoke life 00:20:23.440 --> 00:20:26.150 into me so that I didn't devalue what I 00:20:26.160 --> 00:20:27.270 was worth and they'd be like, "Bro, 00:20:27.280 --> 00:20:28.870 that's not the job for you. Like you're 00:20:28.880 --> 00:20:30.789 better than that." Um but then willing 00:20:30.799 --> 00:20:32.390 enough to say like, "You need to take 00:20:32.400 --> 00:20:34.390 this job because like it's got something 00:20:34.400 --> 00:20:36.230 that can push you forward." 00:20:36.240 --> 00:20:38.789 >> So good. Now I want to add a footnote. 00:20:38.799 --> 00:20:42.470 I'm talking to a single man, 00:20:42.480 --> 00:20:46.789 well educated with no kids, and he's 36 00:20:46.799 --> 00:20:48.310 years old. 00:20:48.320 --> 00:20:49.110 >> 34. 00:20:49.120 --> 00:20:50.230 >> Oh, sorry. Your 00:20:50.240 --> 00:20:53.750 >> time 34. His His brother's 36. 00:20:53.760 --> 00:20:54.549 >> No, that's true. 00:20:54.559 --> 00:20:55.830 >> Yeah. 34. 00:20:55.840 --> 00:20:56.710 >> Did my parents pay you? 00:20:56.720 --> 00:20:59.110 >> I just wanted to put that out there. 00:20:59.120 --> 00:21:01.909 >> Did my parents pay you for that moment? 00:21:01.919 --> 00:21:03.990 >> Do you need to say paid for by Alan Joe 00:21:04.000 --> 00:21:04.390 Vivian? 00:21:04.400 --> 00:21:07.190 >> Paid for. [laughter] 00:21:07.200 --> 00:21:08.950 >> Yeah. 00:21:08.960 --> 00:21:10.149 She thought that was the best part of 00:21:10.159 --> 00:21:10.549 the interview. 00:21:10.559 --> 00:21:13.029 >> I [laughter] know, right? 00:21:13.039 --> 00:21:14.789 >> Who said single men don't come to 00:21:14.799 --> 00:21:18.070 church? 00:21:18.080 --> 00:21:21.990 But now we're in 2026 00:21:22.000 --> 00:21:23.590 and 00:21:23.600 --> 00:21:25.669 I'm going to take people behind the 00:21:25.679 --> 00:21:27.990 scenes to something that you 00:21:28.000 --> 00:21:30.710 orchestrated. I think part of your 00:21:30.720 --> 00:21:33.510 counter intelligence background cuz 00:21:33.520 --> 00:21:36.950 didn't I read that you informed doctrine 00:21:36.960 --> 00:21:38.950 in Central America? 00:21:38.960 --> 00:21:42.470 >> Uh I helped write doctrine for counter 00:21:42.480 --> 00:21:43.990 China, counter Russia. 00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:46.630 >> Oh. And then you But no, you advised 00:21:46.640 --> 00:21:47.830 >> I did. Yeah. Yeah. 00:21:47.840 --> 00:21:49.430 >> Tell me about that. 00:21:49.440 --> 00:21:53.990 >> Uh so ultimately I went to Panama for 00:21:54.000 --> 00:21:56.070 two months. Two months. And we trained 00:21:56.080 --> 00:21:58.710 them up on how to do like 00:21:58.720 --> 00:22:00.710 from aircraft like counter narcotic 00:22:00.720 --> 00:22:02.710 missions for surveillance and also like 00:22:02.720 --> 00:22:04.149 counter disaster relief. So if a 00:22:04.159 --> 00:22:06.310 hurricane hit that's their institution 00:22:06.320 --> 00:22:07.909 that kind of helps support and help save 00:22:07.919 --> 00:22:09.750 lives and things like that and so we 00:22:09.760 --> 00:22:11.510 help train them on like how we do it and 00:22:11.520 --> 00:22:12.870 so that they could replicate it based 00:22:12.880 --> 00:22:15.110 off of like whatever whatever tools they 00:22:15.120 --> 00:22:17.190 had. Uh and it was really weird because 00:22:17.200 --> 00:22:21.669 I was 26 to 28 time frame. I can't do 00:22:21.679 --> 00:22:24.070 math. So, we're gonna give us a range. 00:22:24.080 --> 00:22:25.590 And I think the highest level 00:22:25.600 --> 00:22:28.310 intelligence personnel in in Panama 00:22:28.320 --> 00:22:29.669 brought us in and asked like, "Hey, 00:22:29.679 --> 00:22:32.230

should we buy this million-doll aircraft 00:22:32.240 --> 00:22:34.310 to do this mission?" And I looked 00:22:34.320 --> 00:22:36.310 around. I was like, "Are we we're 00:22:36.320 --> 00:22:38.390 talking to me?" Like, you you want you 00:22:38.400 --> 00:22:40.390 want my opinion? Like, sir, there are 00:22:40.400 --> 00:22:42.470 much smarter people, but that was like 00:22:42.480 --> 00:22:43.590 kind of the position you get thrust 00:22:43.600 --> 00:22:45.590 into. And so, I gave him an answer of 00:22:45.600 --> 00:22:47.270 like, "I don't think you need it. I 00:22:47.280 --> 00:22:48.630 think you guys can do with what you're 00:22:48.640 --> 00:22:50.230 doing with what you got and just improve 00:22:50.240 --> 00:22:52.710 on that." and like maintain that and 00:22:52.720 --> 00:22:54.310 that's what they went with. Do I know 00:22:54.320 --> 00:22:56.149 that I was the only voice in his head? 00:22:56.159 --> 00:22:58.390 No. But the fact that 26-year-old me got 00:22:58.400 --> 00:23:01.029 to look at, you know, a very grown man 00:23:01.039 --> 00:23:03.830 with a very high, you know, access for 00:23:03.840 --> 00:23:05.990 his government and be like, "No, dog, 00:23:06.000 --> 00:23:08.149 that's not it." And he listened was wild 00:23:08.159 --> 00:23:09.990 to me. 00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:12.230 >> And that's leading when you're not the 00:23:12.240 --> 00:23:14.950 one out in front. And and 00:23:14.960 --> 00:23:16.390 >> that's leading when you shouldn't be the 00:23:16.400 --> 00:23:18.630 one out in front, [laughter] 00:23:18.640 --> 00:23:20.390 >> but you are. 00:23:20.400 --> 00:23:22.789 and you're thrust into to that role. So, 00:23:22.799 --> 00:23:25.110 we fast forward to this election cycle 00:23:25.120 --> 00:23:26.549 working with the Georgia Democratic 00:23:26.559 --> 00:23:30.549 Party. Um, there was a commercial that 00:23:30.559 --> 00:23:31.590 went out. I don't know how many of you 00:23:31.600 --> 00:23:34.549 all saw the early voting commercial with 00:23:34.559 --> 00:23:38.789 Bernice King and Martin 00:23:38.799 --> 00:23:41.029 and that means we didn't do enough. 00:23:41.039 --> 00:23:42.710 >> Oh, they don't want to raise their hand 00:23:42.720 --> 00:23:44.310 in church either, but no, I didn't see 00:23:44.320 --> 00:23:47.909 it. No. How did that commercial and and 00:23:47.919 --> 00:23:50.310 of course Al Vivian was in there too as 00:23:50.320 --> 00:23:55.029 the children of those who were the the 00:23:55.039 --> 00:23:57.590 trailblazers for voting rights. How did 00:23:57.600 --> 00:23:59.350 that happen? 00:23:59.360 --> 00:24:02.149 >> Yeah. So for the folks who didn't see 00:24:02.159 --> 00:24:05.350 it, uh ultimately we wanted to do a push 00:24:05.360 --> 00:24:07.590 for people to early vote. Uh very 00:24:07.600 --> 00:24:09.669 nonpartisan. It was more like a PSA and 00:24:09.679 --> 00:24:11.909 we wanted people to know that like the 00:24:11.919 --> 00:24:14.149 best way to exercise your right to vote 00:24:14.159 --> 00:24:16.310 and avoid hiccups like you're at the 00:24:16.320 --> 00:24:17.909 wrong polling precinct and can't make it 00:24:17.919 --> 00:24:20.310 back is to vote early. Um, and so we got 00:24:20.320 --> 00:24:22.149 asked to come up with some ideas to 00:24:22.159 --> 00:24:24.230 pitch and uh, a lot of them were very 00:24:24.240 --> 00:24:26.230 silly but some of them were serious and 00:24:26.240 --> 00:24:27.909 this one was the serious one is that we 00:24:27.919 --> 00:24:29.669 live in Georgia and we live in Atlanta 00:24:29.679 --> 00:24:31.430 which is one of the cradles of the civil 00:24:31.440 --> 00:24:33.669 rights movement and so we wanted to pull 00:24:33.679 --> 00:24:35.669 on that legacy especially in this moment 00:24:35.679 --> 00:24:39.110 in this time uh kind of push forward uh, 00:24:39.120 --> 00:24:40.789 those voices to kind of urge us to 00:24:40.799 --> 00:24:44.390 continue that fight. And so I they 00:24:44.400 --> 00:24:45.990 accepted the pitch from me and then they 00:24:46.000 --> 00:24:48.390 told me to cast it. And so I had to run 00:24:48.400 --> 00:24:50.630 around trying to get a hold of Martin 00:24:50.640 --> 00:24:52.630 Luther King the third and Bernice King. 00:24:52.640 --> 00:24:54.630 My dad was easy. I woke up and said, 00:24:54.640 --> 00:24:56.630 "Hi, do you want to do this?" Um, and 00:24:56.640 --> 00:24:58.470 Andrea Young. And so like these are 00:24:58.480 --> 00:25:00.310 people whose parents did incredible 00:25:00.320 --> 00:25:01.669 things, but who are also doing 00:25:01.679 --> 00:25:03.750 incredible things themselves. And so it 00:25:03.760 --> 00:25:05.990 kind of got honestly it got stalled. I 00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:07.590 got a yes from my dad. I got a yes from 00:25:07.600 --> 00:25:08.950 Andrea Young. And I couldn't get a hold 00:25:08.960 --> 00:25:10.950 of anybody else. and we kind of lost 00:25:10.960 --> 00:25:13.269 funding for it. And then one Sunday I'm 00:25:13.279 --> 00:25:15.830 sitting in a coffee shop and I get a 00:25:15.840 --> 00:25:18.230 phone call from no caller ID. I answer 00:25:18.240 --> 00:25:19.750 it and it's Bernie King. 00:25:19.760 --> 00:25:20.070 >> Wow. 00:25:20.080 --> 00:25:22.149 >> And she's like, "If you can find if you 00:25:22.159 --> 00:25:23.430 can do it in this window, we can make it 00:25:23.440 --> 00:25:25.909 happen." And turns out when you say 00:25:25.919 --> 00:25:28.070 Bernice King is down, the party starts 00:25:28.080 --> 00:25:29.830 moving a little bit. [laughter] 00:25:29.840 --> 00:25:32.149 And so, uh, from there, I thought it was 00:25:32.159 --> 00:25:33.669 just going to be that. And that same 00:25:33.679 --> 00:25:35.909 day, MLK the third's assistant called 00:25:35.919 --> 00:25:37.909 out of nowhere after go like two weeks 00:25:37.919 --> 00:25:39.669 of no reply. And so it just like lined 00:25:39.679 --> 00:25:42.230 up with four four giants being willing

00:25:42.240 --> 00:25:44.950 to film uh on a very quick turnaround. 00:25:44.960 --> 00:25:46.470 One of my co-workers used to work for 00:25:46.480 --> 00:25:49.350 Spikeley. And so she got the production 00:25:49.360 --> 00:25:51.269 side together and we got and my boss got 00:25:51.279 --> 00:25:54.549 a $15,000 budget and the little trio of 00:25:54.559 --> 00:25:56.310 misfits were able to pull it all 00:25:56.320 --> 00:26:02.710 together. 00:26:02.720 --> 00:26:05.750 So as we close today, I've got two 00:26:05.760 --> 00:26:08.710 questions. The first one is, what would 00:26:08.720 --> 00:26:11.510 you say to veterans in this room who are 00:26:11.520 --> 00:26:13.430 still trying to figure out life after 00:26:13.440 --> 00:26:19.430 service? 00:26:19.440 --> 00:26:21.669 I think one is a little bit of patience. 00:26:21.679 --> 00:26:23.190 Like give yourself a little bit of grace 00:26:23.200 --> 00:26:25.430 and patience in the moment. Like I think 00:26:25.440 --> 00:26:27.269 I did 11 years and that's like some 00:26:27.279 --> 00:26:29.269 undoing that I'm still undoing and 00:26:29.279 --> 00:26:31.110 figuring out who I am now. And there's 00:26:31.120 --> 00:26:34.070 bestes I will say things I'm like, "Oh, 00:26:34.080 --> 00:26:35.750 that that was the air force in me." And 00:26:35.760 --> 00:26:38.149 I let all of that go. So, I think the 00:26:38.159 --> 00:26:39.750 longer you do, the more time you do, 00:26:39.760 --> 00:26:42.470 there's like less to like relearn about 00:26:42.480 --> 00:26:44.149 yourself. I think give yourself the 00:26:44.159 --> 00:26:45.750 space and the time and the grace to like 00:26:45.760 --> 00:26:49.190 unlearn and learn again. Um, and then I 00:26:49.200 --> 00:26:52.630 think say yes to a lot. You only know in 00:26:52.640 --> 00:26:54.149 the action, you only figure things out 00:26:54.159 --> 00:26:56.070 as you're like doing. And so, you can 00:26:56.080 --> 00:26:57.430 sit, you can ponder, you can journal, 00:26:57.440 --> 00:26:59.990 and that is good. But you can also do 00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:02.390 and learn like, oof, I didn't like that. 00:27:02.400 --> 00:27:04.310 On to the next one. O, I like that. 00:27:04.320 --> 00:27:06.710 Let's dig into this more. And so I think 00:27:06.720 --> 00:27:10.470 uh yeah, say yes. And then the 00:27:10.480 --> 00:27:12.390 government gives a lot of benefits to 00:27:12.400 --> 00:27:14.549 vets. And I know a lot of times pride 00:27:14.559 --> 00:27:16.470 gets us in the way of not saying yes to 00:27:16.480 --> 00:27:19.909 them. Like oh I walk just fine. Oh, I'm 00:27:19.919 --> 00:27:21.909 healthy. Oh, I'm all these things. Like 00:27:21.919 --> 00:27:24.230 there are other vets who need this more. 00:27:24.240 --> 00:27:26.549 And I feel that and I agree with that at 00:27:26.559 --> 00:27:28.310 many points in my life. But like if 00:27:28.320 --> 00:27:30.070 they're offering benefits, do the 00:27:30.080 --> 00:27:33.190 research and say yes to them because uh 00:27:33.200 --> 00:27:35.029 don't leave food, money, or anything 00:27:35.039 --> 00:27:37.190 else on the table if you don't have to. 00:27:37.200 --> 00:27:39.990 >> That's good. And then for our 00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:43.350 congregation, what is your hope that we 00:27:43.360 --> 00:27:50.230 remember during this Veterans Day week? 00:27:50.240 --> 00:27:51.830 I think I touched on it a little bit and 00:27:51.840 --> 00:27:53.430 I think there is something about 00:27:53.440 --> 00:27:56.070 Veterans Day that can feel maybe a 00:27:56.080 --> 00:27:58.470 little bit inaccessible to the average. 00:27:58.480 --> 00:27:59.909 Like I think there is something 00:27:59.919 --> 00:28:01.830 remarkable about someone giving their 00:28:01.840 --> 00:28:03.510 life, putting their life on the line on 00:28:03.520 --> 00:28:05.510 behalf of others, but I think there's 00:28:05.520 --> 00:28:07.430 also something that is like and like 00:28:07.440 --> 00:28:09.909 that's not me. I've not been in a true 00:28:09.919 --> 00:28:12.630 combat situation. Um and so sometimes I 00:28:12.640 --> 00:28:15.510 feel even unworthy of like the mantle 00:28:15.520 --> 00:28:17.350 that is Veterans Day. But I do think 00:28:17.360 --> 00:28:19.510 there something special that can be 00:28:19.520 --> 00:28:21.510 repeated by anybody and that's like a 00:28:21.520 --> 00:28:23.830 discipline of sacrifice. I think that 00:28:23.840 --> 00:28:25.909 there's something very simple about 00:28:25.919 --> 00:28:28.230 dying to yourself a little bit on behalf 00:28:28.240 --> 00:28:30.470 of somebody next to you or on behalf of 00:28:30.480 --> 00:28:32.310 a greater institution. And so like like 00:28:32.320 --> 00:28:34.549 I've said for us that's you know how you 00:28:34.559 --> 00:28:36.149 wear your hair, how you can paint your 00:28:36.159 --> 00:28:37.909 nails if you're a woman, like when you 00:28:37.919 --> 00:28:39.750 have to show up to work, uh not having 00:28:39.760 --> 00:28:42.149 your phone in you all day. Um, but 00:28:42.159 --> 00:28:44.789 that's also, you know, a parent doing 00:28:44.799 --> 00:28:46.310 something on behalf of their kid, a 00:28:46.320 --> 00:28:48.070 teacher staying a little bit later and 00:28:48.080 --> 00:28:49.750 buying their own supplies. And so I 00:28:49.760 --> 00:28:52.789 think there's ways to practice sacrifice 00:28:52.799 --> 00:28:54.470 as a discipline so that when you get to 00:28:54.480 --> 00:28:57.350 the big thing, it's easy and it's what's 00:28:57.360 --> 00:28:58.549 in you and not something that you have 00:28:58.559 --> 00:29:00.630 to like meet the moment for. And so I 00:29:00.640 --> 00:29:02.149 think we're all a little bit better off 00:29:02.159 --> 00:29:04.070 as a society, as a church, as a 00:29:04.080 --> 00:29:06.789 community when we practice the 00:29:06.799 --> 00:29:08.870 discipline of sacrifice a little bit 00:29:08.880 --> 00:29:10.310 more often. 00:29:10.320 --> 00:29:16.360 That's good. That's so good. Amen.