התמלול המלא של Interview with Stephanie Zettl (Episode 189 - The Marketing Gateway Podcast)

emotions. And we know, especially on the idea of marketing and advertising and selling, is that you want to have that emotional involvement into the purchasing of services, product, whatever it is. And so having those photographs that tell that story, that get people involved, that they can picture themselves doing those things or purchasing those things are very, very important. Sean Jordan: in my qualitative research class that I teach at SUE, I always do an exercise where I show three photos and I I just pulled them off of Unsplashed, they're free licensed photos, but I have no idea who took them or for why. One is of two people sitting in a car after a wedding, one is of a little boy reading a Bible, and one is of two people kissing out in the snow. And when I show these pictures to students, I just ask them to tell me what the story is. And they always come up with these really elaborate stories for the photographs. it it's amazing to me. they'll talk about how in the wedding photograph that the guy who's sitting with the bride, you can't really see him, and he's got a hairy arm. So they assume that he's not the groom, he's the father, because only the father would have a hairy arm around his bride of a daughter. And they'll tell me the little boy is reading like a family heirloom, that this Bible he's reading is something that his grandparents gave him and that they really wanted him to know and to read. And they'll tell me the story about the couple kissing is that they it's their first kiss. They go they make up all this stuff. And what's amazing to me is that they're getting all of that from the picture. I'm not giving them any cues. I have I have no idea. I don't I don't know what the truth is of any of it. But the stories that they come up with are so deep and meaningful and often reflective of who they are as people as well. I think that's one of the powers of photography, really. Stephanie Zettl: I agree with you there. And I think the thing is, is that people, like you said, they're they're putting themselves into it in many places. And so it's it's their stor their memories, their stories, their emotions that they're actually, you know, that tells part of the story here. And also as you think about it, like it's so much easier. words can be so fact-based, you know, it's very specific. But with the photos, you have that emotional thing, like I aspect that I talked about. And it's the emotion that leads to more of a story and more of the creativity and more of the imagination and more of the what if that goes with it. So yes, definitely. that's awesome. What a great what a great exercise. Sean Jordan: It it's, one of the reasons that we have to do that is because we we do concept testing and research all the time. And I have seen great ideas with poor execution in photographs that, you know, when we put them in front of actual consumers, they don't get what the ad's about because the photograph has elements that are just completely wrong. And so I think it's really instructive that we participate in the storytelling when we look at a photograph, whether we realize it or not. Stephanie Zettl: Definitely. I the the thing that I I was thinking about that was that people people oftentimes they think that, I just need a photo of this glass, right? And so they're not thinking about the story of that glass. And people are gonna put a story to it no matter what. you know, so might as well kind of lead them down the path that you want them to tell that you want to tell with that story. but it is interesting because there will always be a story connected to it. So you have to have the strategy before you even press the shutter. Sean Jordan: That's that's so true. And I I know it can sound amazingly tedious to say, What's the story behind this class? But at the same time, people are going to add one whether you supply it or not. So it's better that you make sure the elements are there to guide them in the right direction. Stephanie Zettl: Exactly. And it's amazing also how just changing sorry, just it's amazing Sean Jordan: Well, I know go ahead. Stephanie Zettl: how just changing your your perspective on the glass, just the lighting, everything. There's so many different aspects of it that one little thing can completely change the story and means whether the photo is successful or not. Sean Jordan: Totally true. If you put some party decorations or something near it, it's gonna tell a very different story than if you put a wedding ring or something. They're gonna see a completely different story there. Stephanie Zettl: Mm-hmm. Yep. Sean Jordan: Well, I know a lot of times when people meet you, they assume that you just shoot headshots. I think I was guilty of this. And maybe some nice corporate photos, or maybe, you know, you're documenting, you know, things. But you know, I've seen your work and I know that you really go all out and you take way more than just headshots. You try to find something that really illustrates the So tell me a little bit about how you counsel your photography clients about how to think about photo sessions. Stephanie Zettl: So one of the things is that people think that I just do headshots or what I like to call corporate mugshots. and that really does show what a person looks like, but it doesn't tell you much about the personality or who they are. And I find that the people that come to me, they really want to be seen. they are passionate about what they do. They bring a lot of themselves to their work. And so by being able to present them so that people feel like they've met them in their photograph, it really opens up opportunities for people. I don't want to take just pretty pictures. I want to take photographs, beautiful photographs that actually create the opportunities, creates a return on investment in the photography services, actually does something to advance your business. And so that's probably one of the big things that makes a difference.

I I find people really interesting. I love to talk to people. I love to meet new people. So I think that curiosity that I have also does really well. with the strategy part of it, getting to meet people so that when they do when it does come time for the photo session, it's very easy to photograph them as who they are, not just what they look like. Sean Jordan: It's so true. And when I think about times where photography's gone right for me, it's been when the photographer took time to talk to me and understand what what I was trying to accomplish and what kind of person I was. And the times that I've been the least happy with a photograph, whether it was a corporate mug shot or something else, has been when it was just a okay, stand in front of the background, we're gonna take your picture and then move on kind of thing. Stephanie Zettl: Exactly. I do not like doing the click click next photos as I call them because exactly that. You don't have any time to connect with anyone. And and I think that's the big thing is that you there as a photographer, even myself, you know, I I have no problem getting my photo taken, but I know that it is a a sense of vulnerability to be in front of the camera. And there has to be that connection with the photographer to actually feel like, you know, you can trust them with your personal image. And that's another huge part of my business is earning people's trust. Because if I don't have your trust, it's the session is just not going to go well. I just know it happens because when people trust you, they hide nothing from you. And so it's extremely important to be able to present someone in the way that they want to be presented, and that requires the trust. Sean Jordan: I wish I could have you come and talk to every family member I ever have that wants me to take a family photo and say, That's why the family photos don't turn out as well because we are not trusting the process here. Stephanie Zettl: You have to trust the process. Well, and and pe it's true. People have to be committed to it. it's so important that, you know, if you come in with the right attitude of this is for something that's going to advance my business or this is something that I have to need, instead of just like, I just do this. I don't want to do this. You know, it it shows up on your face. That attitude shows up in the photo. and then so in some ways it's a little bit of acting or it's a little bit of like, you know, I hope I hope that you honestly are calm and happy and enjoy the session with me. But, if you're just sitting there going, I hate this, I hate this, I hate this, you're gonna see it on the face. Sean Jordan: So true. I've experienced it. I've I've lived it. Stephanie Zettl: Yeah. I'm sorry. I'm sorry that you have because it's it's it's no no one wants to see that. No one wants to have a photo love of them because it it really is, you know, we care more about our photos than anyone else does. And you know, and so you want to have a photo that you love, that is a representation of you, that feels that it looks like you, that you have been seen. And so I feel I it just hurts me when people don't have a great experience with a photographer. Sean Jordan: I I I so appreciate that because I think that that's one of the things that really makes the humanity of photography important, you know, where we can't just delegate it to a machine. We can't just, you know, take a few reference shots and then plunk it into a generator. You know, need to have someone behind the camera that has some empathy for the human being behind or that's being being having their their picture taken. So Stephanie Zettl: yeah, there's a beautiful expression. There are two people in every photograph, the photographer and the person being photographed. And and it it's true because I as a photographer, one of the things that I studied 20, 25 years ago, one of the things I noticed was that you could have 10 people in the same situation photographing something and all the photos will look different. And of course, the reason why is because of their experiences, their beliefs, their values, everything that they think is important to them. That's going to show up in the photograph in the composition. You know, we we shoot photographs in a fraction of a second. And when you choose that fraction of a second, you're basing it on everything that you think is important. you know, values, beliefs, what's beautiful, what's not beautiful. You know, how do you want to portray this person? Do you respect this person or not? I mean, all those things go into it. So yes, there are two people in in every photograph. Sean Jordan: Well, you've really become a big part of our local AMA chapter in the last year and you've taken some incredible pictures of our board members and some of our membership. And I know those got shown off at the fall or the the April conference, excuse me, in the spring. I've seen, you know, as well some of the stuff that you've brought and shown off at some of the events we've had. And, you know, I I'm even happy hoping that that we can have a shoot with you at some point. We have this focus group St. Louis business that we're starting, and we're gonna have you do some ph photography for that, hopefully. But Tell me a little bit about what drew you to start talking to marketers and why you've hit it off so well with our local marketing community. Stephanie Zettl: I th I think the best thing about the AMA is that the people that are there are just incredibly good people. They're kind, they're outgoing, they're easy to talk to. and I love the education value that comes with the AMA. So that was one of the real reasons that originally drew me there. And then of course, with the marketing, because again, I want to be a storyteller. I started off as a photojournalist and then started my own business twenty-three years ago and now as we as we come back to the United States, I still want to be that

storyteller. And I feel like marketers are the adjacent career that would be good at telling good stories. so we're all storytellers. My tool is photography, is basically what it is. but I think that the AMA does such a good job of education. It does a good job of connecting people. I have to say that Marissa and Hannah and Juan, you know, President and President elect are just are awesome people that just do such a great job of of promoting good ethical practices within the marketing industry. Sean Jordan: agreed, agreed. And we've we've had Hannah on as a guest. I need to get Marissa and Juan on here at some point, but I mean the the knowledge that they have as well as the the desire to build a community is part of why I keep coming back too. So I appreciate that a lot. Well, you know, when you're working with the AMA folks, I know you know one of the things that you have to do when you come to these meetup we we have coffee, you know, we have sometimes the lunch meetings or Stephanie Zettl: Mm-hmm. Sean Jordan: I've been bowling with the AMA or things like that, but you have to articulate why you're there and what you do. How do you talk about photography in that sense? Stephanie Zettl: Again, it goes back to the storytelling. I think also a lot of on the branding side of things, the personal branding, people want to be known. And so I definitely focus on leaders, visionaries, founders who know that the they are the heart and soul of their business and that, its success comes from people knowing about them. So one of the things I think is that being able to talk to the marketers and say, hey, we can make them show up better. in a way that definitely shows who they are and not just what they look like. so it's more compelling for their advertising, social media, website, those kind of things. The other thing is that and marketers understand that is that people are not one dimensional dimensional. They are multifaceted. And so, you know, if you're your CEO, he's also probably got a a charity that he's supporting. your CFO might have a cause that she's very dedicated to. Your CMO, you know, they also want to have great photos also because they know the value of them. But I mean, everyone in the C suite, you know, especially, you know, those leaders and those founders and visionaries, you know, they they have a podcast, they have a book, they're s on this they're speaking on on stages and things like that. So they really, really need to have something more than just one headshot. Sean Jordan: Yeah. And you've you've talked with me before about how it's good to have multiple different photographs of you that can show different sides of your personality. So that for example, if you're speaking to a not-for-profit audience that you can show one side, if you're speaking to a corporate C-suite kind of audience, you can show another side. So how do you make those distinctive enough that they're useful to the clients that you're working with? Stephanie Zettl: A good question. I think one of the things that is very helpful with that is that people is again that strategy session beforehand where we're actually talking through people through with people, where I also get to see people's personality because some people are very extroverted, loud, outgoing, happy, you know, the biggest smile they can't do a serious face if you know paid them to do it. and then there's people who are just a little bit more introverted and quiet and and thoughtful. but so it's understanding those people. First is very important, understanding what they feel comfortable with, and then adjusting it to fit their personality. So what I'm thinking about, like for a not for profit, is that you're probably going to want to lean in more to the camera and be a little bit more approachable, a little bit softer in that respect. if you are talking about a very serious challenge that is in the industry, you're going to want to be again, you don't want to have a big space. giant smiley face for that. You want to look that you're competent and in charge and powerful in that. And then of course if, you know, if you are trying to get new business, then maybe you have that nice approachable smile. Sean Jordan: Just it takes me back to when I was a senior in high school and went and got my senior pictures that, I didn't just get a a shot. I they they were staged in ways that showed off the different parts of my personality. I had one in front of a bookshelf because I like to read. I had one in my band uniform because I would play in the band. I had one where I was just sitting casually. And we don't think about that in the business world, that we need to show those different sides of ourselves. And yet, we're not just, as you said, one dimensional people who just do one thing. We Often have Stephanie Zettl: Mm-hmm. Sean Jordan: so many parts of our personality that we want others to see. Stephanie Zettl: Exactly. I don't want to shoot every single photo in an office. You know, it's it's it's it's you you you just blend in then, you know, and I I the whole purpose of getting the photographs taken with me is 'cause you want to stand out. I you want people to be like, I wanna meet this person. Sean Jordan: when you when we were showing off the AMA pictures in the spring, I noticed that quite a few of the the pictures were taken outside in St. Louis downtown. Stephanie Zettl: Mm-hmm. Sean Jordan: what was the decision in taking those there? Was it just to get that larger than life architecture or what was the story that you guys were trying to to to tell through that? Stephanie Zettl: So the reason why we chose downtown is because we wanted to showcase St. Louis, but we didn't want it to be cliche with the at the foot of the arch. the arch is, of course, a great monument. It is truly St. Louis, but at the same time, we can say we're in St. Louis without having the arch in the background. So we we chose the downtown area there that has some

beautiful distinct architecture. And we just kind of took a walk. And because we had 12, 12 to 14 people there, it was nice to be able to have everyone's photos look a little bit different, but at least be complementary also. I I want things to coordinate without being matchy matchy. So that was one of the reasons why we chose the area. Sean Jordan: you could have just done in front of the arch with gooey butter cake and toasted ravioli and emo's pizza and everybody would have gotten the idea. Stephanie Zettl: Yes. a gooey buttercake probably would have made the portrait session a little bit better. But next time. Next time. Sean Jordan: That that's true. Well, I think I've told you before, I I'm an amateur photographer. I mainly like to take pictures where I I have more of a journalism background myself. I like to take things that are candid, that use natural light. But I know that when I am shooting something, I tend to think about three things. Okay, so I think about light, I think about composition, and I think about that right moment to snap a shot. And I I really like to take pictures of animals. So I'll go to the zoo and try to grab pictures of animals, but I don't want them to be Just picture of an animal. I want them to be a picture that shows something about that animal animal's personality, right? Because that's not boring. And I don't want them to be boring. So I know you've got a lot of thoughts like this in your head when you're thinking about doing photography and when you're working. So help me understand a little bit what is a professional photographer thinking and what are they working towards when they're in the middle of a photo shoot? Stephanie Zettl: So so what you describe there is just having that dynamic photo and having life in it. And there's basically, I mean, composition is definitely a part of it. I always laid it down to two things, light and life. So you have to have that dynamic life experience within the photograph, but also you have to have some really good lighting on it because you can have a really beautifully lit photograph, which usually is a corporate mugshot, but it has no life to it. so it's doesn't have, it's not dynamic. So what I'm always looking for, especially when I start, is the lighting because we all want to live in the pretty light. it's the lighting that makes us it's flattering to us and it is dynamic in that people it draws people attention. The lighting is in the right place because your eye is automatically drawn to the brightest spot in a photograph. So you want to make sure the lighting is in the right place there. And then I'm looking for that life, that spark, you know, being able to get someone to truly be themselves in front of the camera. Because when even even if you are enjoy getting your photograph taken, there is still a little bit of nerves when you walk in. And so it's just getting that relaxation. So your shoulders drop and then the true self comes out. And it's such a beautiful thing to see, you know. And then, you know, certain people have as we're working together, you know, you see that spark, that mischievousness, or maybe a little bit of a laugh or something like that. So I'm always looking for things that are tells of who a person is. Sean Jordan: and I've had professional photographers tell me that like when someone's self conscious or when they get up in their head about how they're gonna look or how they're gonna present themselves, that they're the hardest people to shoot because you're not getting those real moments. And he one of the guys I talked to told me he has to really calm people down and get them comfortable so that they can Stephanie Zettl: Mm-hmm. Sean Jordan: get those fun moments. So I know you've mentioned some of the techniques that you use already, but Are there any tried and true things? you I think back when I was a kid and the, the photographer in those family studios would have a little squeaky toy or whatever to try to get Stephanie Zettl: I'm speaking. Sean Jordan: the kids to smile, right? What what do you do with corporate clients to get them to to unwind a little bit? Stephanie Zettl: I don't have a problem being ridiculous even with corporate clients. it was funny because I actually had a squeaky toy in my bag left over from something else I was doing and it was at a corporate event and they were being a little too serious. And I was like, please don't make me bring out the squeaky toy, and they like laughed about it. I was like, okay, fine, we're bringing out the squeaky toy. And yeah, it's hilarious. Anyhow, wouldn't do that on most cases, but it went well on that one. I think the big thing is is really truly just Being curious and interested in people and and having an interest in people, I think it's something that I naturally am. So it's it's it's one of my greatest strengths that I don't necessarily didn't necessarily acknowledge until recently is that I just am curious about people and I want to know about them. And when people are able to talk about themselves and they're able to talk about what they're passionate about and excited about and what they're looking forward to, like you don't think about the photos anymore. You're not worried about that anymore because you get to talk about what you're passionate about, what you've spent your life trying to build. And I mean, I'm excited about it because I it's usually something pretty amazing that they're working on. And so it just kind of builds and it just is a beautiful thing of just people get relaxed, they feel comfortable, and they just shine. Sean Jordan: It just sounds so the opposite of what I think a lot of us think about when we think about having our picture taken. We, you know, it it sounds relaxing and fun and engaging and and ultimately that's what's gonna get relaxing, fun, engaging kind of photos, right? Stephanie Zettl: Yes, yes. you I think part of the other thing is because I've been a photographer

for so long. I'm not the very best photographer out there. I'm a very good photographer, but I know my technical skills very well. And so I don't have to think about that. And all I have to do is think about the person in front of me. And it's it's a it's a skill set that I didn't realize was so important. Sean Jordan: So true, so true. And might as well go into this next topic now because it's it's the topic of the day and that's AI, right? So we have these AI tools that are getting a lot more sophisticated and it's becoming easier and easier to just, you know, take a good picture of yourself. You can upload it into an image generator and then tell the program what you want and it can create something new. But you know, personally I feel like it's never gonna be as good as having another human being working with you to get a great picture. And I think AI is best used as a tool in photography for maybe fixing what's already there, maybe, extending a little bit of the background or something, but not inventing new photos that never happened. So I'm gonna ask you, what's your take on using AI and photography? Where's it useful? And where do you feel like a human's gonna do a better job? Stephanie Zettl: So I'm never going to say you should never use AI because there are maybe some cases that you need to, but you do need to know like the actual consequences of using AI. One of the things is like you don't remember this photo actually being taken. You weren't there. You have no memory of it. So it is kind of a lost memory in that respect. because as we just explained, there is that, at least working with me, there is that conversation that goes on. There is that understanding, there's that strategy, there's a lot of pieces that go into it so that you have that memory around that photograph. So I think that that's really important. Second thing is that AI gets better and better and better. you know, the beautiful images out there. I think they're still soulless. I I think that you really miss the personality of the person in those photographs. and they look a little too perfect. And I also were realizing that the next generation and even even our generation is that they don't want it to be as perfect. Like we were ooh, Photoshop, let's retouch everything. Looks let's look airbrushed. And now we're like, you know what? I'm okay with my 11s, you know, my my little wrinkles here between my eyebrows. You know, because it's like that's who I am. I've earned this, I'm it's real, it's human. I think there is a true connection to being human. Now not that I wouldn't soften those wrinkles, but I don't want to be airbrushed out to be something that I'm not. And I think a lot of people are starting to realize that. And that's one of the reasons why AI, that's a consequence of AI that people need to understand. the other thing I believe is that when it comes to AI, a lot of people I think I just saw a yesterday I saw statistics that said fifty two percent of people prefer an AI image over a one that was taken a real taken one taken by a photographer. Sean Jordan: Mm-hmm. Stephanie Zettl: but once they figure out that it's AI, 58% of it of people lose trust and lose engagement with that photograph. So there is a huge risk that if people figure out that this is an AI photograph of you, that you are going to lose trust. and I think that that's the big thing is that it is an investment and Photography is always expensive, and I don't mean just in dollars. it is expensive in the amount of time, preparation, you're making yourself vulnerable, being in front of the camera. This is expensive. So, in that case, when you go into it, you have to realize the expense that you are going to incur to do it. But the benefit of it is that you're going to gain more trust, more credibility, you're gonna have those memories, you're gonna have those experiences. And all these things build confidence. and I think that's the other thing, is a lot of people like, well, I don't like getting my photo taken. You know, I hear that all the time, and I understand it because it hasn't always been a pleasant experience. But in the process of it, of getting your photo taken, if you're working with a good photographer, there are a lot of good photographers in St. Louis. If you're working with a good photographer, you're going to gain confidence of being on camera, being in front of the camera. And so by doing that, you are able to build your confidence, your presence, your personal brand. All of these things are very important. And it's the thing that's gonna differentiate ourselves in the market. Sean Jordan: I couldn't agree more. And, just going back to some of the things we've talked about, if we're going to remember the story of what we see, we're going to be more confident about showing that photograph to others, maybe talking about it, letting it speak for us in a way. But also the people that are looking at it are going to put something into it too. And if it looks authentic and it looks real, and in fact it is real, but we can we can even talk about why it is, they're gonna have more confidence and and trust in it and also Take more away from it than if it's just something that was generated because we thought it looked cool. And I I I just think there's so much value in. Stephanie Zettl: Truly, For example, one an example would be if you're taking photographs of your team working together. a lot of people use stock photography for that, where they have people who are very, very beautiful with perfectly straight teeth and glowing bright eyes. and they're beautiful photographs, but at the same time, it doesn't have the trust of showing people working in your office, working together, the collaboration. And that's the thing is is like people are looking at things. the The things that aren't said but are seen because they can see, if you're working with your coworkers, they'll be able to see like how you're interacting. you

know, are you is there camaraderie there? Are you working together closely? And it's these little unspoken things that actually get picked up in the photo. And like you said, they start telling stories because they're gonna be like, I bet he's a really bad boss. Like he doesn't seem very good about like, you know, talking to his employees. Or vice versa, he's the best boss ever because look how they're all joking and having a great time and actually collaborating on an issue. And so these are kind of the things that we have to work through is to make sure that those stories that get created in people's minds actually match the company. Sean Jordan: It's so true. I having done concept testing, I have seen that exact scenario happen where someone's in a picture. It might be like a dad and a son, and people assume the dad is abusing the son. And it it's not in the picture at all. I don't understand where they're getting it from, but they're taking some cue that says that the son looks uncomfortable and the dad is is is too domineering. And it's just it's it's wild how a photo, which often is a stock photo in those situations, can communicate that kind of a story to people and yet It is because it's not the photo itself, it's the context in which we're showing it to them and trying to get them to put a story on it. they're they're seeing something different. And again, I think it's where a a photographer can really guide the process because a photographer can see sometimes those things and can kind of draw out, well, this is how I see this and this is how you could use this. That that's such a useful explanation. Stephanie Zettl: Yes. And this is why you want to work with a photographer who is conscious of being the storytelling because there's a lot of photographers out there that are technicians. They're very good. They can work a camera. They can make a beautiful photograph. But if they if they are not con conscientious about having that story being told, you're you're gonna end up with stuff that you can't use. Sean Jordan: 100%. Well, it's been a great conversation. I've really enjoyed talking with you about photography. it's it's one of those things that I'm passionate about as a just someone who enjoys it and you know who occasionally every now and then gets to take a good picture himself, but you get to do it all the time and you're so good at it. But you know, one thing I always ask guests to do at the end of the show is to plug anything. We're all marketers, we're all plugging things all the time. So here's your chance. You can plug anything you want, go for it. Stephanie Zettl: I I love to take people's photographs. I will always be a photographer. So I would love opportunities to photograph more people in the St. Louis area, especially those people who are building incredible things. So you can check out my website at Zettelphoto, Z-E-T-T-L-P-H-O-T-O dot com. And then connect with me on LinkedIn because there's a lot of great stories that I'm telling over there on LinkedIn. Sean Jordan: Very true. And in fact you've been upping the anteeth in terms of doing some didn't you do some video storytelling and things like that on there? Stephanie Zettl: A little bit, but mostly mostly still still working with my with my still photographs, but we'll see. We'll see what the future holds. Sean Jordan: That's fantastic. And of course, we'll have all of Stephanie's contact information in the show notes as well. Stephanie, thanks so much for being on. It's been such a pleasure. Stephanie Zettl: Thank you so much. I've really enjoyed it and the conversation. You're always such a great conversationalist. Sean Jordan: Right back at ya. Wow, that was just yet another fascinating conversation. And I am so grateful to Stephanie for being on the Marketing Gateway. Thanks, Stephanie. Can't wait to see you and all of the things that you're going to do in the future with the great photography that you do. And by the way, folks, I love having on our local St. Louis marketing community. So if you are part of it, if you are doing a marketing job of any sort, you should come on the Marketing Gateway. And you can do that by going to the Marketing Gateway.com and clicking the sign up to be a guest button. And I'd love to talk with you and see if you can come on be on the show anytime because we want to continue to learn from each other and this incredible marketing community we have here in St. Louis. So thanks so much for listening. I'm Sean in St. Louis. This has been the Marketing Gateway and we will see you next time.