תעתיק 🔗
1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:01,745
Welcome to the Major Project Podcast.
2
00:00:01,753 --> 00:00:03,174
I'm your host, Orion Matthews.
3
00:00:03,183 --> 00:00:11,805
In this pod, we are learning from the people that work on projects around $1 billion, trying to tease out the lessons and learnings from these big endeavors.
4
00:00:12,334 --> 00:00:25,188
My guest today is AJ Waters, 20 years in major projects from QA estimator, Google's data centers, and AE Kahua, and now field COO for public sector at Procore.
5
00:00:25,596 --> 00:00:35,453
He is also the chief engineer behind the award-winning The Engineer Life podcast, and he may be the most traveled man in construction.
6
00:00:35,501 --> 00:00:38,742
At every conference I've been to, I think AJ has been there.
7
00:00:39,090 --> 00:00:47,473
I started this podcast with a mission to give listeners the value that I was getting from the hallway conversations at these mega project conferences.
8
00:00:47,482 --> 00:00:55,650
So I can't think of a better guest to help with that mission than someone that's been to hundreds of these kinds of conferences.
9
00:00:55,656 --> 00:00:58,140
So AJ, welcome to the podcast.
10
00:00:59,103 --> 00:01:01,926
Thank you so much, Orion, and I appreciate you having me.
11
00:01:01,926 --> 00:01:03,161
This is gonna be a lot of fun.
12
00:01:03,188 --> 00:01:13,114
I don't know if I'm quite the most traveled, but, uh, but I definitely enjoy the, uh, the ability to get out and talk with people.
13
00:01:13,121 --> 00:01:16,443
Just like you said, like, those hallway conversations are gold.
14
00:01:16,896 --> 00:01:19,649
Uh, and, and so this, this should be a fun chat.
15
00:01:20,820 --> 00:01:21,409
Awesome.
16
00:01:21,454 --> 00:01:22,656
Yeah, I'm looking forward to it.
17
00:01:22,659 --> 00:01:37,578
But before we get into the meat of it, maybe you can tell us, like how does a math and physics kid from Nebraska end up on billion-dollar job sites? That's a really good question, because I, I grew up, like, dreaming of construction.
18
00:01:37,578 --> 00:01:46,365
I was one of those kids who obviously built a lot of Lego, and, uh, and I wanted to build stadiums and be a part of major projects.
19
00:01:46,365 --> 00:01:57,382
So, when I kinda came out of school I had a, a few folks tell me that maybe I wasn't quite sharp enough to be an engineer, and that's where the math and physics came in.
20
00:01:57,410 --> 00:02:00,951
I was like, "Well, if I can't be an engineer, I'm good at math.
21
00:02:00,952 --> 00:02:02,938
I'll be a teacher, and I'll teach math.
22
00:02:03,005 --> 00:02:04,245
That'll be the way that I go."
23
00:02:04,661 --> 00:02:16,908
But what, what happened was, along the way a, the scholarship that I had earned at school provided an aptitude test, and the gentleman took us out to, uh, to Denver.
24
00:02:16,938 --> 00:02:17,999
We took a test.
25
00:02:18,905 --> 00:02:21,810
The aptitude test came back and said I'd be a good engineer.
26
00:02:22,573 --> 00:02:27,486
And, well, all right, then maybe I can, I can make this 360.
27
00:02:28,187 --> 00:02:56,039
Well, the other thing that that gentleman knew was he knew people in the construction industry, and so he connected me with a few folks that helped me refine my resume, helped me understand how to interview for internships, and that landed me uh, an internship with Kiewit my the summer after my undergrad senior year before my post-grad work, and that's what kinda started the role.
28
00:02:56,048 --> 00:03:03,529
So I g- I knew a guy who knew a guy and that, that was, like, that guilty by association in a good way.
29
00:03:05,499 --> 00:03:06,314
That's awesome.
30
00:03:06,392 --> 00:03:18,064
And then so h- would you say then you kind of fell into major projects, which is a very common story that I hear, and then just started- Yeah loving it, getting in there.
31
00:03:18,064 --> 00:03:23,717
You started on the estimating side, is that right? Kind of- Yeah, that's exactly right.
32
00:03:23,722 --> 00:03:25,719
So I was an estimator at Kiewit.
33
00:03:26,026 --> 00:03:31,761
We would do second estimates in my internship for major projects across the country.
34
00:03:31,761 --> 00:03:42,490
So the the district that I worked for, we were doing second estimates on, on 500 million and, and up power plants on infrastructure, interstate jobs.
35
00:03:42,490 --> 00:03:50,571
And so, um, I got into doing takeoff and estimating by hand, coloring up the drawings before it was on screen.
36
00:03:51,134 --> 00:04:08,029
And then when I, when I moved into the full-time work I th- it kind of was by accident that I ended up being the, the guy who would estimate the general conditions on any one of our mega projects that we were chasing.
37
00:04:08,541 --> 00:04:38,661
So and most of the time they were joint ventures, so like I, I would put together the general conditions estimate for our half, and then we'd, we'd have to go into a, a you know, an estimate review, and I'd be sitting across the table from a counterpart that was 20 years my senior trying to argue why we need this many engineers or this many porta potties or this many labor hours to clean the site, right? And, uh, and it ended up I got to travel a lot because of that.
38
00:04:38,662 --> 00:04:44,744
So that's where I got the travel bug, because most of those projects weren't based in Omaha, where I was.
39
00:04:45,103 --> 00:04:46,271
And so I...
40
00:04:46,334 --> 00:04:50,637
Those estimate reviews would be in DC, in Denver, in South Dakota.
41
00:04:50,689 --> 00:04:52,868
I got to go a lot of different places for that.
42
00:04:54,064 --> 00:04:54,410
Wow.
43
00:04:54,861 --> 00:05:09,823
Okay, and then sort of last thing about your history I wanted to ask you, you have, there's Different people go different tracks, and so you're, you're working in the major project space, and some people kind of go like, "I wanna be
Load full transcript
on the owner side," or, "I wanna be on the contracting side."
44
00:05:10,100 --> 00:05:16,966
And then there's sort of a lesser path where people go into the sort of application side or almost like the data system side.
45
00:05:16,980 --> 00:05:21,564
And I'm curious, like, you sort of chose that path with, like, Kahua and now Procore.
46
00:05:21,932 --> 00:05:25,486
You know, what made you pick that? Oh, that's a really good question.
47
00:05:25,494 --> 00:05:32,986
So in the early 2010s I was still at Kiewit, and they were overhauling all of their systems.
48
00:05:33,482 --> 00:05:41,365
And, uh, and many people were being picked to kind of go help with that as subject matter experts to review p- technologies, to roll them out.
49
00:05:41,897 --> 00:05:43,243
I actually raised my hand.
50
00:05:43,728 --> 00:05:52,015
Instead of getting voluntold, I volunteered for that and, uh, and said, "Hey, I, I kind of see this new iPhone thing and where it's going.
51
00:05:52,449 --> 00:05:58,937
It looks fun, and, uh, and I wanna go hang out with these, these folks and, and work on some tech for a little bit."
52
00:05:58,954 --> 00:06:00,921
And I fell in love with it while I was there.
53
00:06:01,458 --> 00:06:18,796
And so I kind of, instead of, you know, rolling back off like a lot of the subject matter experts did, I looked for ways that I could continue to provide value there and asked if I could stay in the technology side, continue to develop the center of excellence and things like that.
54
00:06:18,811 --> 00:06:20,744
And it was a lot of fun for me.
55
00:06:20,985 --> 00:06:25,088
I was just one of those strange cases where it was like, "Oh, that looks cool.
56
00:06:25,090 --> 00:06:26,070
Let's go try that."
57
00:06:27,568 --> 00:06:27,997
Cool.
58
00:06:28,697 --> 00:06:29,069
All right.
59
00:06:29,069 --> 00:06:31,484
Well, thanks for the history background.
60
00:06:31,556 --> 00:06:43,618
So for today's topic we're gonna be talking about major stories from the road, so not a single mega- Mm-hmm project, but really we're gonna try and capture as much of those learnings that you've gotten over the years on from conferences and things like that.
61
00:06:43,619 --> 00:06:47,533
So I'm gonna hit you with a few questions- Okay uh, and see kind of what you think.
62
00:06:47,951 --> 00:07:12,604
First one is when you walk onto a site cold, what tells you in 10 minutes that it's in trouble? So I referenced earlier a lot of the major projects that I worked on were joint ventures, right? And for me, one of the first things I notice when I walk onto a major mega project, they- if they're a joint venture and there are two different hats, right? Mm-hmm.
63
00:07:12,604 --> 00:07:22,107
Like, if, if you see multiple hard hats around the job site, different colors or what have you, then right then and there I say, "We're not a team.
64
00:07:22,117 --> 00:07:22,694
We don't even...
65
00:07:22,716 --> 00:07:24,725
We're not even wearing the same colors yet."
66
00:07:25,165 --> 00:07:43,178
And, uh, and so there's going to be some push and pull that's gonna happen, and whoever's got the, you know, extra half a percent or whatever in their side of the project is the one that's going to be trying to, uh, to force their authority, if you will.
67
00:07:43,491 --> 00:08:08,651
And so the first thing that I look for when I walk onto a me- mega project that, especially if it's a joint venture team, is, is everybody wearing the same hat? And you know, how does that flow? Like, d- is it really just that there's, like, infighting and ego and things like that, and it's really just like you're not one team and so those projects just sort of turn into political battles? They don't work that out? Yeah.
68
00:08:09,521 --> 00:08:32,609
It's, it's a just in- inherent us versus them that you never addressed out of the gate, right? And, uh, and so how can you, how can you feel like a team without wearing the same colors? Uh, it's, it's- We, did you play sports, Orion? Yeah.
69
00:08:33,159 --> 00:08:33,544
Okay.
70
00:08:33,552 --> 00:08:39,086
So when you're practicing against your own teammates, right? Right.
71
00:08:39,086 --> 00:08:55,900
And you're wearing the different color jerseys- Yeah it's a different feel than when you're all suited up in the same jersey on game day, right? Like, you go at each other in practice in, mostly in a good way, but sometimes it becomes adversarial.
72
00:08:56,161 --> 00:09:03,039
But it- Yeah feels different when you're competing against the person across from you, even when you're technically on the same team.
73
00:09:03,735 --> 00:09:10,367
And, uh, and it's, it's just natural with, uh, with us as human beings, the way that works.
74
00:09:10,421 --> 00:09:23,326
And so psychologically, getting in the same colors changes the way that you view the person next to you, even when you're supposed to be doing the same thing.
75
00:09:23,689 --> 00:09:34,235
And so I think that it goes a long way, and it's one of those intangibles that it's hard to measure, but y- you can feel it when you've been a part of it.
76
00:09:35,538 --> 00:09:35,979
Yeah.
77
00:09:36,012 --> 00:09:37,642
That's a really great way to frame it.
78
00:09:37,654 --> 00:09:49,251
There was that famous Stanford Prison Experiment too- Oh, yeah where like, where they sort of studied that with students pretending to be in prison and, um, they had to cancel it because it got too heated.
79
00:09:49,257 --> 00:09:51,918
But you're right, that, Well, that's really great insight.
80
00:09:52,292 --> 00:09:59,208
Okay, getting back to conferences, tell me a story you'd only ever tell at the bar.
81
00:10:00,019 --> 00:10:00,397
Oh.
82
00:10:01,636 --> 00:10:03,629
Shoot, I only wanna tell it at the bar.
83
00:10:03,966 --> 00:10:06,954
Um- I'm gonna crack my, uh, coffee for this one.
84
00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:07,960
Yeah.
85
00:10:07,966 --> 00:10:29,460
So I guess one of the stories that, that I tend to, to go back to is kind of the way that I ended up- Taking over the, the training lead for, um, Kiewit's technology, which is what made the shift into technology more permanent.
86
00:10:30,007 --> 00:10:37,141
And, uh, and what ended up happening, I was a subject matter expert on just the estimating platform, right? That's what we were supposed to do.
87
00:10:37,769 --> 00:10:42,771
And we were presenting at the annual meeting, Kiewit's annual meeting, stockholders only.
88
00:10:42,981 --> 00:10:44,390
I was not a stockholder.
89
00:10:44,475 --> 00:10:48,441
We're presenting And I wasn't even a presenter.
90
00:10:48,485 --> 00:10:50,809
I wasn't supposed to be talking at all.
91
00:10:51,085 --> 00:10:58,391
I was the backup, so leading up to this day we, we would rehearse every day, and there were...
92
00:10:58,438 --> 00:11:07,446
It was a two-part thing, like, the one guy would go first and another guy'd go second, and I was the backup for both of them in case somebody got sick or needed a break or something.
93
00:11:07,723 --> 00:11:09,275
So I would just watch in the back.
94
00:11:09,820 --> 00:11:13,167
I didn't actually practice live once.
95
00:11:14,002 --> 00:11:31,021
Um, and the day came, and we're going through the presentations, and we get to the lunch break, and we're at lunch, and they're like, "Hey, AJ, do you wanna take the, the first half or the next one just so that you get a chance to present?" And I'm like, "Sure, that'd be great."
96
00:11:31,550 --> 00:11:36,282
So I go up there, and I start talking, and I'm, I'm giving the first half of the presentation.
97
00:11:36,954 --> 00:11:46,774
And, uh, and I'm getting to the part where it's time to transition, right? And the guy that I'm gonna throw it to is standing in the back of the room, and he's just signaling, keep going."
98
00:11:47,274 --> 00:11:54,215
So I, I give both halves at, i- in the same talk, and we, we did four before lunch.
99
00:11:54,217 --> 00:11:55,543
We did four after lunch.
100
00:11:56,488 --> 00:12:02,782
They proceeded to let me do the last three by myself the rest of the day.
101
00:12:03,583 --> 00:12:28,049
And just so happened one of the gentlemen who came through as an attendee during one of those sessions was looking for a new lead to run the training and the rollout for the remainder of the tools after estimating, and, uh, and so that, that's what led to me taking over training for the, the system as a whole.
102
00:12:28,353 --> 00:12:37,633
So when it came time to rebuild the system and, and do the Innate thing, I knew the, the whole system, and it made sense to be one of the Innate subject matter experts.
103
00:12:37,635 --> 00:12:42,240
So it was really crazy story that it's one of those skills.
104
00:12:42,241 --> 00:12:49,330
I have this, um, unique ability to memorize songs in movies after one time hearing or seeing them.
105
00:12:49,744 --> 00:12:52,880
It's totally useless unless you like karaoke.
106
00:12:52,883 --> 00:12:52,898
Right.
107
00:12:53,317 --> 00:12:59,669
But it worked for me there because that's what I used to figure out that talk when I, I had never even rehearsed it.
108
00:13:00,407 --> 00:13:01,096
Wow.
109
00:13:01,397 --> 00:13:02,053
I think that's...
110
00:13:02,110 --> 00:13:05,846
The lesson learned there is that you never know if you're gonna get put on the spot.
111
00:13:06,271 --> 00:13:09,172
You're lucky that, uh, that, that you could nail it.
112
00:13:09,186 --> 00:13:15,302
But, uh, if there's anyone listening that's like, "Oh, I'm gonna be going and, and sitting in the back," it's like, mm, maybe not.
113
00:13:15,403 --> 00:13:17,370
Yeah yeah, better be prepared.
114
00:13:17,451 --> 00:13:17,900
Wow.
115
00:13:18,202 --> 00:13:21,208
Okay, let's try and grab some of that memory of yours.
116
00:13:21,211 --> 00:13:21,231
Yeah.
117
00:13:21,526 --> 00:13:24,276
So again, you've probably been to hundreds of conferences.
118
00:13:24,510 --> 00:13:31,489
What's one of the best presentations you saw, and why, on megaprojects? One that sticks with you.
119
00:13:31,507 --> 00:13:33,519
Oh, that's a good question.
120
00:13:33,623 --> 00:13:41,011
I saw a, a presentation once on, on a new tech, and it was, it was drone tech.
121
00:13:41,082 --> 00:13:52,064
They were doing a, a, a major earthwork project, right? And they were, they were showcasing how the drone would fly and do the quantities, right? Every day.
122
00:13:52,850 --> 00:13:54,323
And what...
123
00:13:54,948 --> 00:14:03,913
Why this was intriguing was instead of just sitting there, right, and slide after slide after slide after slide, the drone flew in.
124
00:14:04,768 --> 00:14:14,696
And they, uh, they had it scan across the top of the audience, and just run a flight pla- path in the, uh, during the presentation.
125
00:14:14,696 --> 00:14:16,140
And you could hear it, and it was...
126
00:14:17,357 --> 00:14:24,187
It distracted a little bit because it was obviously up there flying around, but for the most part you're still following along in the presentation.
127
00:14:25,201 --> 00:14:32,567
But the, the purpose of that was the gentleman on stage said, "Hey, look the drone's done.
128
00:14:33,322 --> 00:14:40,419
We have theoretically a brand-new set of quantities, and I never stopped standing up here presenting to you.
129
00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:43,714
Like, I never had to step out and do something else," right? Yeah.
130
00:14:43,714 --> 00:14:47,822
"The capture of the data did not interrupt my flow."
131
00:14:48,130 --> 00:15:02,827
And it was a really well-executed delivery of a point, of a very important point that, uh, that impressed me, that, hey, this is, this technology is non-invasive.
132
00:15:02,889 --> 00:15:15,695
Which is something that we all want from our tech, right? And so that one really, uh, impressed me because you think, you know,
you're just, "Oh, he's just here to show off his drone, and it's distracting," and all this stuff.
133
00:15:15,696 --> 00:15:21,088
And really what he was doing was delivering the most important point of the entire talk.
134
00:15:21,918 --> 00:15:22,238
Huh.
135
00:15:23,295 --> 00:15:24,763
Set up and take down.
136
00:15:24,805 --> 00:15:26,180
Like, uh, that's a great one.
137
00:15:26,535 --> 00:15:27,003
Okay.
138
00:15:27,125 --> 00:15:29,662
And then you've presented a bunch at these conferences.
139
00:15:29,665 --> 00:15:29,675
Mm-hmm.
140
00:15:29,679 --> 00:15:38,612
What's your personal favorite for the presentation you did? Like, what learning were you bringing? Ooh.
141
00:15:38,612 --> 00:15:38,622
So...
142
00:15:40,595 --> 00:15:41,101
That's hard.
143
00:15:41,110 --> 00:15:41,944
I have two.
144
00:15:42,333 --> 00:15:44,134
Probably- I'll take two yeah.
145
00:15:44,192 --> 00:15:52,480
My first favorite is, uh, one that I called kind of the, the, the owner's dilemma, where it, it came to, um...
146
00:15:52,861 --> 00:15:54,406
It's the whole concept, you know how...
147
00:15:54,799 --> 00:15:59,755
Finish this phrase: growth solves- All ills.
148
00:16:00,063 --> 00:16:00,439
Yeah.
149
00:16:00,468 --> 00:16:00,839
Chat, rush.
150
00:16:00,839 --> 00:16:01,207
Everything.
151
00:16:01,210 --> 00:16:01,479
Yeah.
152
00:16:01,660 --> 00:16:02,001
Yep.
153
00:16:02,060 --> 00:16:02,306
Yeah.
154
00:16:02,363 --> 00:16:03,603
Growth solves everything.
155
00:16:04,013 --> 00:16:12,748
But the second that you, like, apply that to digital transformation, it totally screws everything up.
156
00:16:12,806 --> 00:16:18,906
Like- growth causes your people to have to go work thin, learn new things.
157
00:16:19,251 --> 00:16:19,592
Get...
158
00:16:19,658 --> 00:16:29,725
Y- you have to take what could be an awesome core team on one project, and you spread them out, right? Because you need those people to make other projects awesome.
159
00:16:30,484 --> 00:16:54,290
When it comes to your processes, growth can either bloat them or expose them, right? And then when it comes to your tech, growth causes you to either not be able to scale the tech that you got or you start trying to force stuff into the tech that you have that it wasn't really meant for, which is why Excel ends up getting used for so much stuff.
160
00:16:55,014 --> 00:17:01,109
And, uh, and so growth is actually a dilemma when it comes to digital transformation.
161
00:17:01,465 --> 00:17:12,753
And so that that talk would walk through how to solve each one of those kind of issues, if you will, your pe- people, processes, and tech w- as it pertains to growth.
162
00:17:13,381 --> 00:17:15,227
Um, so that, that's one.
163
00:17:15,229 --> 00:17:23,086
And then the second one is one I, I built off of Simon Sinek's kind of famous TED Talk, Strong Opinions Loosely Held.
164
00:17:23,913 --> 00:17:30,496
So he actually stole that phrase from
a from another gentleman, but Safro, I think, was his last name.
165
00:17:31,038 --> 00:17:44,827
And the, the whole idea is, like, we've been so focused on how construction should do things that even our technology went out and digitized how we did things, right? Like the RFI, for example.
166
00:17:44,827 --> 00:17:44,837
Yeah.
167
00:17:45,189 --> 00:17:47,470
We didn't innovate the RFI with tech.
168
00:17:47,668 --> 00:17:51,363
We just made the paper form digital, right? That's all we did.
169
00:17:51,364 --> 00:17:51,684
Yeah.
170
00:17:52,244 --> 00:18:33,134
And, uh, and we never stopped and asked ourselves, "Is that actually the right thing we should be doing? Now that the paper's out of the way, what could we do instead," right? And so, um, the idea that strong opinions loosely held is w- like, we hold tightly to these strong things that we've done for so long, and it's okay to have that grounded opinion that, that, that thing that you're adamant about, but the second that you get proven that it's no longer necessary- Maybe you should let go of that stronghold and, and hold it a little looser.
171
00:18:33,137 --> 00:18:37,766
So those are my two favorite talks to really test people.
172
00:18:38,508 --> 00:18:39,685
Those are awesome points.
173
00:18:39,697 --> 00:18:40,854
Okay, I wanna take them on a...
174
00:18:41,216 --> 00:18:43,024
I wanna share a couple thoughts on that.
175
00:18:43,031 --> 00:18:47,313
So one- Okay the growth cures all ills, not always true.
176
00:18:47,335 --> 00:18:59,155
And that- Yeah I'm reminded of the, there's the CEO of, of Rakuten, uh, Hiroshi M- Mikitani, I think I'm gonna get his name wrong, and he had a concept called the rule of threes and tens.
177
00:18:59,497 --> 00:19:02,124
And so he said, "Things break in threes and tens."
178
00:19:02,129 --> 00:19:02,147
Mm-hmm.
179
00:19:02,388 --> 00:19:10,232
So when you have a two-person team and you become a three-person team, you have to throw away all your old processes and start over.
180
00:19:10,552 --> 00:19:15,787
And then when your three-person team gets to 10, you have another break, and you throw it all away.
181
00:19:15,788 --> 00:19:22,730
And then when 10 gets to 30, it happens again, and then you, you have it at 100 and then 300.
182
00:19:22,957 --> 00:19:34,562
And so, like, he was sort of talking about how things just, um, as teams grow, all the systems underneath them explode, and his view was that it happens in threes and tens, which I always thought was interesting.
183
00:19:34,857 --> 00:19:38,809
And kind of applies to mega-projects really because you're scaling up so fast.
184
00:19:39,084 --> 00:19:43,048
Right it's like you're breaking as you go really quickly.
185
00:19:43,288 --> 00:19:52,943
And it, and that makes it hard for technology to keep up and systems and people 'cause you wanna, you wanna plan it once and then kind of use the same system.
186
00:19:52,945 --> 00:20:01,804
So you don't
really plan for system breakage, process breakage, things breaking down as you scale very w- very much, I don't think.
187
00:20:01,811 --> 00:20:09,672
So that's really- Well, and what's- awesome points what's so crazy about that, right, is we plan for it operationally but not with our tech.
188
00:20:10,007 --> 00:20:31,378
Because- Yeah when you look at how we schedule projects, right, like we know there's a learning curve at the start of an operation, and we, we don't expect to get our full production in the first couple weeks of that big operation, right? And we just inherently know that there's gonna be a lear- learning curve, and we're okay that we're slow the first two or three days that we're doing something.
189
00:20:31,887 --> 00:20:48,197
But when it comes to tech and we go through that lull, that little dip, either whether we're, we're scaling up a team like you said or we're introducing brand-new tech for the first time and we're like, "Oh, we're gonna turn this on, and day one we're all gonna be more efficient."
190
00:20:48,253 --> 00:20:53,978
No, you're gonna be slower because you've never used it before, just like you are on an operation.
191
00:20:54,436 --> 00:21:01,624
And we, we just like, we inherently get that when it comes to the operations, but when we look at the tech we're like, "Oh, this is terrible.
192
00:21:01,628 --> 00:21:03,670
The tech must suck because we slowed down."
193
00:21:03,672 --> 00:21:06,345
And we're like- Yeah "No, it's the same thing."
194
00:21:07,058 --> 00:21:19,336
Why do you think people don't get that? Is it that we're selling tech to them, that it's a magic unicorn thing? Is it that people use Google, and they're like, "I, I get it instantly, and it's all great"? What's...
195
00:21:19,521 --> 00:21:23,710
Why does that happen that people have that mind- It's a good question.
196
00:21:23,712 --> 00:21:31,986
I think it's a little bit of the overselling and it's also a little bit of, like, we're just not open enough to have that conversation.
197
00:21:32,304 --> 00:21:57,779
We all know it from the tech side, and even if you're in the IT department within the construction company or the owner, you know it, right? And we just, we don't have that conversation up front because maybe we're afraid that it'll risk the deal, or maybe we're afraid that people will get cold feet on the change and turn back.
198
00:21:58,351 --> 00:22:12,327
But, uh, but yeah it's definitely something that if as soon as we can get it out in the open and plan for it, just like you were saying, it, uh, it really makes things better for everyone involved as, as long as we...
199
00:22:12,779 --> 00:22:15,438
We just have to be open and honest with ourselves.
200
00:22:16,715 --> 00:22:19,716
I h- I think you're absolutely right when...
201
00:22:19,939 --> 00:22:34,416
I think p- part of the problem that I see with that is that when you're on the tech side and you are talking with someone that's operating and you know, like you know that the tech is going to 100X their company.
202
00:22:34,725 --> 00:22:46,474
There's no question if you could just get them to stop doing their operations messy and, like, get on board and actually transform themselves, the upside is massive.
203
00:22:46,483 --> 00:22:46,884
Mm-hmm.
204
00:22:46,884 --> 00:23:03,319
But people, I think tech has failed so many people because of some of the things we've already talked about, that people are really scared of committing to a change like that and, you know, and they don't really see how the organization's gonna capture the value.
205
00:23:03,854 --> 00:23:08,798
So it's like there's this problem where it's like you really want them to go through and transform themselves.
206
00:23:09,096 --> 00:23:13,644
So trying to say, "Uh, it's gonna really suck," is it's just really tough.
207
00:23:13,646 --> 00:23:20,303
It's like a personal trainer taking someone on that's, you know, it's like, "Yeah, your first like six months of training, it's gonna be horrible.
208
00:23:20,550 --> 00:23:21,969
You're gonna hate it."
209
00:23:22,328 --> 00:23:23,404
Nobody starts that way.
210
00:23:23,404 --> 00:23:26,582
It's like, look at what great body you're gonna have at the end of this process.
211
00:23:26,614 --> 00:23:31,999
But, like, the f- the initial, like, intake of getting fit or something is hard.
212
00:23:32,330 --> 00:23:34,032
Yeah, so that's, that's tricky.
213
00:23:34,155 --> 00:23:35,102
Yeah, I think you're right.
214
00:23:35,118 --> 00:23:36,252
Maybe we're overselling it.
215
00:23:36,675 --> 00:23:39,128
Yeah people aren't ready to hear, Interesting.
216
00:23:39,134 --> 00:23:50,401
Okay, well, and then w- just jumping to your other point about how people don't question systems that have been in place for a long time, uh, I'm reminded...
217
00:23:50,614 --> 00:24:01,596
I don't know if this was another Stanford experiment, but they did an experiment with animals where I think it was, like, monkeys or something, and they had the bananas in the middle of this room, and they had all these monkeys around.
218
00:24:01,617 --> 00:24:05,536
And then they would, if a monkey took a banana, they would punish it.
219
00:24:06,086 --> 00:24:11,361
And so the monkeys learned never to touch the bananas, right? And then they started self-reinforcing it.
220
00:24:11,374 --> 00:24:21,186
So it's like if another monkey, the new monkey that came into the thing tried to take the bananas, the monkey would stop him, 'cause, like, they knew that getting the bananas was bad.
221
00:24:21,761 --> 00:24:39,044
But then what they found is that a- they had, like, multiple generations of monkeys, and at, at the end they stopped doing the punishment for taking the banana, but the group would self-reinforce, and they never actually took the bananas.
222
00:24:39,054 --> 00:24:51,439
So the whole point was that, like, s- uh, systems can get in place that
are inefficient, stupid, and the group will self-reinforce those sy- those processes and never even remember why the original rule was set.
223
00:24:51,487 --> 00:24:59,150
It was like a whole new generation- Right of monkeys never had any experience of why they shouldn't grab the bananas, and they were still reinforcing that behavior.
224
00:24:59,414 --> 00:25:10,885
And I think that happens a lot in organizations which is why- For sure I think young people coming in or challengers that actually do, like, sort of the crazy monkey that grabs the banana is actually good.
225
00:25:11,091 --> 00:25:14,108
And sometimes you shouldn't punish those people too much.
226
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:26,378
If you have a team, you know, the, the, the one that's really pushing on these threads that seem inherently, you know, fixed sometimes come up with the best ideas or help you capture new things.
227
00:25:27,194 --> 00:25:45,372
Yeah, and one of the offshoots of that is, is true innovation, a true culture of innovation takes courage, number one, because you have to be willing to challenge that old school thinking, and number two, it requires the psychological safety to fail.
228
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:46,171
Mm-hmm.
229
00:25:46,171 --> 00:25:53,814
Which in construction, we're so risk adverse, we don't often give people that room to fail.
230
00:25:54,180 --> 00:26:19,072
And, uh, and to your point, that's- if we're gonna, if we're gonna allow these young people to challenge us, which we should because some of this stuff does need changed, then we also need to be okay with a little bit of failure here and there, and not just reward people who are right, but reward people who are learning.
231
00:26:19,696 --> 00:26:29,482
Because every failure is a new lesson learned, right? And so as long as it's not life-threatening, which could be some things.
232
00:26:29,589 --> 00:26:39,571
I'm not saying go out and let people fail when it comes to life safety, but if it's a new system, if it's a new process, if it's a new way of thinking, let's iterate on those.
233
00:26:39,576 --> 00:26:40,697
Let's fail fast.
234
00:26:40,697 --> 00:26:47,664
Let's see what we can do to move forward, and let's be okay with testing something and it not working.
235
00:26:49,155 --> 00:26:51,770
So I think th- this is an awesome point.
236
00:26:51,839 --> 00:26:53,275
I have a follow-up question.
237
00:26:53,475 --> 00:26:53,552
Yeah.
238
00:26:53,552 --> 00:27:01,870
But I think we're seeing some shifts maybe from all these data centers getting built out, essentially the owners are techies.
239
00:27:01,875 --> 00:27:01,890
Right.
240
00:27:02,092 --> 00:27:17,005
We probably have, there's probably a 28-year-old billionaire right now that's looking at a $10 billion construction project, and the culture of tech is fail fast, right? Like, uh, uh, Facebook's motto was like, "Move fast and break things."
241
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:19,998
Th- which is the opposite of what we're talking about in construction.
242
00:27:19,999 --> 00:27:26,671
So I'm hoping that the culture changes a little bit as a result of these new mindsets coming in.
243
00:27:27,306 --> 00:27:59,344
Why does construction have this l- lack of s- psychological safety, would you say? Well, for the longest time construction has been one of those just beat it out, tough it out, do the hard thing, right? And, uh, and there were great rewards for people who were hitting numbers, and there was a lot of not reward e- It's just been a tougher, more brutal industry for a long, long time.
244
00:27:59,608 --> 00:28:24,423
But to your point, we're seeing changes, not just the culture because of who the owners are, but the culture of because of who we need to bring into the industry if we're going to survive some of these labor numbers, right? And so, we're starting to see that shift away from just gut it out and go do your job to the, "All right.
245
00:28:24,501 --> 00:28:33,281
We do need to pay attention to the, the mental side of this for people, and, uh, and have a little bit more care and respect for one another."
246
00:28:35,416 --> 00:28:49,753
Following your point on the labor numbers, I wanna ask you about that because at the conferences that I've gone to, and it's way less than you, but maybe you can validate this, I think the demographic skews quite high on the older side.
247
00:28:50,037 --> 00:29:00,239
I s- I sort of see, like, this problem where it's like everyone is retiring that has done these mega projects, and I don't see a lot of young people joining those conferences.
248
00:29:00,259 --> 00:29:02,720
I- the ratio's gotta be pretty skewed.
249
00:29:03,236 --> 00:29:05,420
Yeah, tell me about the labor problem that's coming.
250
00:29:05,421 --> 00:29:12,953
Is that related? Yeah, I mean, it is, right? The- we're retiring more than we're bringing in.
251
00:29:13,234 --> 00:29:14,254
That's for sure.
252
00:29:14,588 --> 00:29:23,601
I would agree that I do see, um, more people my age and older than I see my age and younger at conferences.
253
00:29:23,949 --> 00:29:31,768
However, I am inspired by some of the people that I am seeing at conferences that are younger.
254
00:29:32,020 --> 00:29:39,858
The younger folks that are coming with energy, are coming with cool ideas, are coming with great stories.
255
00:29:40,311 --> 00:29:48,355
And so there are pockets where I see contractors empowering younger folks quicker.
256
00:29:49,365 --> 00:29:56,968
A lot of times it's out of necessity, but those folks are stepping up to that occasion and delivering.
257
00:29:57,013 --> 00:30:15,897
And so while it's not at the level or pace that I'd like to see in all cases, I am inspired by some of the, some of the shift that I'm seeing, and the, the younger folks that I do find at conferences definitely are the types of people that can take us to that next generation.
258
00:30:17,462 --> 00:30:19,712
Well,
okay, let's role model for them for a minute.
259
00:30:19,712 --> 00:30:19,722
Okay.
260
00:30:19,780 --> 00:30:22,981
Psychological safety here 'cause you're on a public podcast.
261
00:30:23,875 --> 00:30:27,543
What's a failure that you've caused? Oh, boy.
262
00:30:29,402 --> 00:30:39,811
Like I could go back to an actual job site and actual estimating outside of the tech 'cause I've done a, a bunch of failures with the tech, but let's talk just straight projects.
263
00:30:40,416 --> 00:30:40,586
Yeah.
264
00:30:40,684 --> 00:30:53,367
One, one of the first estimates that I was the lead estimator on was a, uh, was an addition to a hotel, and we were adding like eight stories above the parking garage that was gonna extend the hotel.
265
00:30:54,217 --> 00:31:09,354
And the drawings, when we did the preliminary estimate, the drawings for the concrete, it was post-tension concrete, one of the structural drawings said floor seven and eight, right? Like, there was a drawing for every floor except that one.
266
00:31:09,372 --> 00:31:11,120
It said floor seven and eight.
267
00:31:11,990 --> 00:31:21,932
And I caught it the first time we did the preliminary takeoff, and I duplicated that page in on-screen takeoff, which doubled up the quantities, right? And we got everything done.
268
00:31:23,281 --> 00:31:38,166
Well, we moved from conceptual estimating into design estimating into the final number, and we're doing, the concrete, we're self-performing it, so this matters, right? And, uh, and at, by that time it was a full estimating team.
269
00:31:38,166 --> 00:31:39,141
I was the lead estimator.
270
00:31:39,165 --> 00:31:57,649
Someone else was doing the self-perform estimate, and I, I totally missed the fact that we didn't have page seven and eight, or floor seven and eight- Oh, no duplicated again, right? Everybody missed it, but I take full responsibility as the lead estimator.
271
00:31:57,968 --> 00:32:03,252
Our, our form work number was right because it came from a sub.
272
00:32:03,781 --> 00:32:09,783
Our, In, uh, we were just off on material, and we were off on labor.
273
00:32:10,351 --> 00:32:11,323
And we didn't know.
274
00:32:11,342 --> 00:32:14,327
Like, we didn't even notice, right? Everything went in.
275
00:32:14,999 --> 00:32:23,905
They're, uh, they're through, like, floor four and I get a phone call from the job site, "Hey, we're burning through quantity on the concrete and we can't figure out why."
276
00:32:24,332 --> 00:32:27,674
And we start digging in and sure enough, there it was.
277
00:32:28,647 --> 00:32:31,278
We skipped a whole floor on concrete material.
278
00:32:31,595 --> 00:32:46,963
Luckily, we had a good contingency on that job and we were able to cover it, but that was a major fail that, uh- Oof that I caused, and I, to this day, people don't let me live that one down.
279
00:32:47,551 --> 00:32:48,264
Oh, man.
280
00:32:48,332 --> 00:33:00,152
So you, did you just straight up, you got the call, you saw it, you were like, lay back in your chair and just walked- Yeah down the hallway and tell your boss, like, "This is it"? Yep.
281
00:33:00,187 --> 00:33:00,653
Yeah.
282
00:33:00,653 --> 00:33:00,663
Yeah.
283
00:33:00,905 --> 00:33:01,691
It was, it was.
284
00:33:01,693 --> 00:33:04,615
It was one of those where I was like, "Here it is.
285
00:33:05,111 --> 00:33:08,749
We're missing an entire floor, uh, when it comes to the quantity."
286
00:33:08,936 --> 00:33:12,610
We got lucky because it didn't affect the form work.
287
00:33:12,808 --> 00:33:17,089
It's really just the purchase and some hours for the labor.
288
00:33:17,536 --> 00:33:20,865
Um, we have this bucket of contingency.
289
00:33:21,129 --> 00:33:23,346
It more than covers it, thankfully.
290
00:33:23,417 --> 00:33:30,341
Like, a lot of things went right so that we didn't lose our shirt on that particular operation.
291
00:33:30,759 --> 00:33:39,299
But, uh, but yeah, it was one of those where within an hour I knew what was wrong from that phone call when they said, "Hey, we're burning through quantity.
292
00:33:39,305 --> 00:33:44,400
Can you look at it?" And yeah, you walk into the office and go, "Well, here's what happened."
293
00:33:45,541 --> 00:33:45,722
Yeah.
294
00:33:45,722 --> 00:33:51,998
What's your advice for someone that might be listening to this that just realized they made a big screw-up? Like- Yeah.
295
00:33:51,998 --> 00:33:54,281
Own it how to make that go well? Yeah.
296
00:33:54,357 --> 00:33:56,557
The worst thing you can do is try to cover it up.
297
00:33:56,637 --> 00:33:57,210
Own it.
298
00:33:57,546 --> 00:33:58,888
Explain what happened.
299
00:34:00,074 --> 00:34:01,299
"Here's what I learned.
300
00:34:01,972 --> 00:34:08,423
Here's how to s- here's how we move forward," right? So, like, come, come to the table with some options to move forward.
301
00:34:09,051 --> 00:34:09,836
Own the mistake.
302
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:10,557
Tell the truth.
303
00:34:10,596 --> 00:34:12,429
That's the easiest way to get past it.
304
00:34:12,804 --> 00:34:18,802
And, uh, and it's, it's way better than trying to cover it up or trying to blame someone.
305
00:34:19,052 --> 00:34:28,693
The worst thing is blaming someone else, um- Yeah which, uh, which I could have easily done, right? I could have easily pointed at the self-performing estimator and gone they missed it."
306
00:34:29,416 --> 00:34:29,718
Yeah.
307
00:34:29,718 --> 00:34:35,101
"What do you want me to do?" But no, that was my responsibility as the lead estimator to, to double check that work.
308
00:34:35,101 --> 00:34:38,810
And so yeah, it's- Don't...
309
00:34:38,879 --> 00:34:41,123
Just take ownership of it, move forward.
310
00:34:41,203 --> 00:34:45,008
It, what is it? The book Extreme Ownership, right? Mm-hmm.
311
00:34:45,028 --> 00:34:50,056
In every situation you played a role, just, uh, accept that role and move on.
312
00:34:51,102 --> 00:34:57,890
You know, the best one of the things I've noticed on this podcast interviewing people is n- nobody ever blames anyone.
313
00:34:57,937 --> 00:35:07,430
I've never gotten a story out of some of these successful, talented people in the mega-project space that, where they're like, "Oh yeah, and then this other guy screwed me over, blah blah blah."
314
00:35:07,746 --> 00:35:17,322
So it's like the the tip that I'm left with is like you said, like blame and is like a cancer inside these organizations.
315
00:35:17,362 --> 00:35:17,383
Mm-hmm.
316
00:35:17,383 --> 00:35:23,188
And you will end up getting fired over it because- Right the leaders that run them, that's their number one flag.
317
00:35:23,190 --> 00:35:26,625
If they're watching someone and you're a blamer, it- you're marked for death.
318
00:35:27,128 --> 00:35:29,523
And then the second is bad news early.
319
00:35:29,716 --> 00:35:37,905
If you hide or obscure information to try to smooth out something that is an obvious problem, that's another death mark.
320
00:35:38,258 --> 00:35:43,017
Like those- Yep two things I think will kill your career faster than anything else in this business.
321
00:35:43,773 --> 00:35:45,018
Agreed, 100%.
322
00:35:46,205 --> 00:35:46,482
Okay.
323
00:35:46,482 --> 00:35:48,446
Well, thank you for sharing that failure story.
324
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:53,152
While we're on the topic you've been in digital transformation for 20 years.
325
00:35:53,583 --> 00:36:00,432
Uh, maybe we can tell the audience, why does digital transformation fail? Oh, gosh.
326
00:36:00,508 --> 00:36:00,973
It's a tough one.
327
00:36:02,180 --> 00:36:08,555
My, my easy answer, the CliffNotes answer is we get the order wrong.
328
00:36:09,017 --> 00:36:21,931
Okay? So in my personal opinion, digital transformation, the reason that the people process technology framework works is because we do it in that order.
329
00:36:22,740 --> 00:36:30,158
You get the people right first, then you figure out the processes, then you pick the tech last.
330
00:36:31,282 --> 00:36:38,010
Why do digital transformations fail? Because we picked the tech and then tried to shove it down the people's throat, right? Or something of that nature.
331
00:36:38,266 --> 00:36:54,422
Or we, we decided that we needed to revolutionize this one process, and we went out and got the tech, and we never once asked the people who had to use it what they thought, right? So- Yeah if you mess up the order of operations, the digital transformation fails.
332
00:36:54,497 --> 00:37:10,299
And by golly, put the people first because regardless of what that new shiny tech looks like to an executive in a boardroom, like, "Oh, that's the dashboard I need," or, that's the process that we want," or, "The workflow that..."
333
00:37:11,712 --> 00:37:27,216
The person pushing the buttons out in the field makes it look that way, and if you didn't ask them if it's harder or twice the work or triple the entry or whatever, and, uh, and you find out after the fact, it's never gonna get adopted.
334
00:37:30,376 --> 00:37:30,724
Said.
335
00:37:31,511 --> 00:37:32,151
Well said.
336
00:37:33,141 --> 00:37:37,985
Uh, so you're saying tech was never really the hard part, it's the people? Yeah.
337
00:37:37,985 --> 00:37:37,995
Yeah.
338
00:37:37,995 --> 00:37:38,754
It's always the people.
339
00:37:38,851 --> 00:37:39,109
Yep.
340
00:37:39,117 --> 00:37:40,080
It's always the people.
341
00:37:40,527 --> 00:37:47,423
Well, this gets into, like You w- you wrote this great article, The 28 Rules for- Oh, boy Building Smarter, which I think that was in this list.
342
00:37:47,821 --> 00:37:53,157
So which of those 28 rules, which one do you think you've broken before? Oh.
343
00:37:53,157 --> 00:37:57,587
And what's a s- what's a lesson on that? So that's actually pretty easy.
344
00:37:57,754 --> 00:37:59,643
Slow is smooth, smooth is fast.
345
00:38:00,389 --> 00:38:00,938
Mm.
346
00:38:00,938 --> 00:38:04,233
Uh, I tend to hurry.
347
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:09,347
Not because, like, I- I'm in a hurry, like I just like to work fast.
348
00:38:09,347 --> 00:38:10,547
Like, I just like to go, go.
349
00:38:11,091 --> 00:38:19,351
And, uh, and so I have a real problem with the slow down a minute let's pause, let's- Yeah double take and figure this out.
350
00:38:19,851 --> 00:38:20,838
I'm just like, let's move.
351
00:38:20,838 --> 00:38:27,823
Let's figure let's fail fast," right? All those things where could have avoid the fail alt- alt- altogether if I paused for a minute.
352
00:38:27,982 --> 00:38:34,726
And see, even I'm talking too fast to, to get out some of this- That reminds me- So- Yeah, go ahead.
353
00:38:35,383 --> 00:38:36,216
No, that was it.
354
00:38:37,111 --> 00:38:41,715
Uh, it just reminds me, there's this, uh, story I think they tell this to, like, Marines or something.
355
00:38:41,716 --> 00:38:45,771
But there was, like, a submarine that was sinking, and there were these people in it.
356
00:38:45,946 --> 00:38:50,876
You know, and they needed to, like, get into a different compartment, and they only had like 60 seconds to do it.
357
00:38:51,322 --> 00:38:53,227
And so it's like, "You're gonna die.
358
00:38:53,593 --> 00:38:56,017
You have 60 seconds to sort this out."
359
00:38:56,326 --> 00:39:04,900
And they're, like, turning this crank, you know, those, like, metal door things, and it's like, "Oh my God, it's not working," right? 'Cause it's like there's some problem.
360
00:39:05,471 --> 00:39:10,906
And but they're training, what they were t- about this, like, uh, slow is smooth.
361
00:39:11,161 --> 00:39:17,543
So they, they realized, like, "I'm panicking," and they took 15 seconds of, like, breathing.
362
00:39:18,170 --> 00:39:19,836
So they're like, "Let's slow down for a second."
363
00:39:19,841 --> 00:39:20,758
So, like, you're gonna die.
364
00:39:20,759 -->
00:39:26,948
You just took 15%, 20% of your life, and they slowed down, and then they realized, they're like, "We gotta turn it the other way."
365
00:39:27,503 --> 00:39:29,538
And they turned it the other way- Mm and they got saved.
366
00:39:29,554 --> 00:39:34,446
And it's like, that's an example I think of, like, how, yeah, slow is smooth, smooth is fast.
367
00:39:34,447 --> 00:39:45,177
Like, y- organizations kind of need that behavior too on these mega-projects sometimes of, like, stop, think, meditate, and then decide what you're gonna do.
368
00:39:45,673 --> 00:39:46,046
Yeah.
369
00:39:46,266 --> 00:39:46,580
Yep.
370
00:39:46,763 --> 00:39:48,302
And I mean, you're absolutely right.
371
00:39:48,302 --> 00:39:50,524
I stole that phrase from the Marines.
372
00:39:50,896 --> 00:39:53,449
Uh, they're the ones who are famous for it, there you go.
373
00:39:53,647 --> 00:39:53,947
Wow.
374
00:39:54,647 --> 00:40:00,648
Well, on your 28 rules, you also wrote that truth on a project is a moving target.
375
00:40:02,383 --> 00:40:10,076
Can you tell me a little bit about that? What's true today is not necessarily true tomorrow.
376
00:40:11,153 --> 00:40:11,653
Mm.
377
00:40:12,146 --> 00:40:15,364
A perfect example is a drawing revision.
378
00:40:17,507 --> 00:40:25,327
So if the drawing gets revised, what was true today is all of a sudden not true.
379
00:40:25,989 --> 00:40:39,147
And so truth, when we always talk about the single source of truth- Yeah is a moving target, and we've gotta make sure that we're connected in a way that we're always on target.
380
00:40:39,579 --> 00:40:43,740
So it's, it's an argument for the, the, the...
381
00:40:43,911 --> 00:40:56,810
It's an argument for the single source of truth, and that being a, an important piece, but also everyone having access to it.
382
00:40:57,591 --> 00:41:38,140
Because if that single source of truth, if anyone has limited access to where the updated drawing is or where the updated change order is or where the updated RFI is, if anyone is missing access, truth to them is no longer truth, right? And so what is true to me is not true to you if you have a different view of it, and that instantly causes conflict and, uh, and trouble and rework, right? And so truth on a project is a moving target, and we all need to be connected to that moving target in a positive way.
383
00:41:39,918 --> 00:41:42,246
This is where I guess an interesting question on that.
384
00:41:42,247 --> 00:41:52,559
I find, I think you're right, obviously, but I feel like that runs up against this problem where there's sort of two problems with getting the truth out to everybody.
385
00:41:52,905 --> 00:41:56,038
First problem is a tech problem, where it's like your...
386
00:41:56,321 --> 00:42:18,634
if your product, your source of truth is licensing per seat, all of a sudden you're like, "Okay, I need to get the truth out to procurement," but, like, they only need to get the truth
four times a quarter, so it's not worth giving them access, so we'll just send them an Excel file, and now they're, like, part of the truth decay, truth lag because you didn't wanna pay for a seat 'cause seats cost so much.
387
00:42:19,016 --> 00:42:32,036
And then there's sort of also this issue of, like, organizations where you're like, "Okay, well, we outsource procurement to this other guy, this other team, and so, like, they don't really have network access because...
388
00:42:32,214 --> 00:42:32,952
So they're, they...
389
00:42:32,986 --> 00:42:35,263
We can't give them access to our source of truth.
390
00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:38,414
We're gonna, like, email it to them, blah, blah, blah."
391
00:42:38,416 --> 00:42:42,560
So there's, like, there's sort of these two structural problems with getting the truth to people.
392
00:42:42,561 --> 00:42:50,770
One is, like, product licensing models and fees- Mm-hmm and then, and then this also this organizational security constraints.
393
00:42:50,770 --> 00:42:51,893
Like, h- what do you think about...
394
00:42:51,908 --> 00:43:02,677
How do you sort those out? That's, so that's exactly why you make the statement the truth is a m- moving target and everyone needs access to it.
395
00:43:03,149 --> 00:43:12,945
So your ex- What you're explaining are some of the issues that have brought us to this point.
396
00:43:13,608 --> 00:43:23,611
Now the solves are a lot of people have gone to unlimited licensing, right? So that unlimited licen- unlimited licensing model, some people don't like it.
397
00:43:23,619 --> 00:43:24,866
Some people prefer the seats.
398
00:43:24,931 --> 00:43:36,762
Now your target is a lot harder to track, right? Um- Yeah it's led to the conversation around digital twin, right? Like, that's what people are trying to get to when they, when they talk about a digital twin.
399
00:43:37,192 --> 00:44:02,743
But then you talk about the stakeholders, right? And who gets access in where the system's at, and this is a whole nother topic that we don't probably have time for today, but it's created the data wars, or what I'm calling the data wars because of data ownership, right? Because which system is the actual truth, and who owns it? Does the owner? Yeah.
400
00:44:02,784 --> 00:44:20,100
Does the contractor, right? Whose system is the actual source of truth, and how are we gonna fight over whose ownership that is? Because at the end of the day, the owner wants all that when the project's over, and they need the actual truth when the project's done.
401
00:44:20,493 --> 00:44:28,869
And, uh, and so we've gotta play this kind of balance of who's allowed in, who's not allowed in, who's, whose system is it.
402
00:44:29,292 --> 00:44:35,955
At the end of the day, how are they connected with one another, right? So, like, some of the technologies are starting to figure this out.
403
00:44:36,522 --> 00:44:38,613
I think IFC was the first thing.
404
00:44:38,629 --> 00:44:44,097
BIM went, "All right, we're gonna have a single file type no matter the authoring platform."
405
00:44:44,103 --> 00:44:44,120
Yep.
406
00:44:44,443 --> 00:44:47,693
And IFC kind of was the first thing that headed that direction.
407
00:44:48,044 --> 00:44:54,396
Now the platforms are starting to connect themselves a little bit, and I think that, uh, that's gonna help a lot.
408
00:44:56,423 --> 00:44:57,495
I, my mind's blown.
409
00:44:57,495 --> 00:45:00,156
The data wars is a great way to describe that.
410
00:45:00,460 --> 00:45:09,731
And then I think there's even a, there's even, on that data war, there's another a- an insidious other actor of the tech platforms themselves.
411
00:45:09,787 --> 00:45:10,077
Yep.
412
00:45:10,077 --> 00:45:12,921
It's like, okay, they're trying to figure out how to monetize your data.
413
00:45:12,922 --> 00:45:26,745
If you're hosting your information somewhere, it's like are they using it to train their AI models? How much access are they gonna give you to your own data? 'Cause if they give it all, then maybe you just ingest it all and vibe code your own system at this point.
414
00:45:27,002 --> 00:45:28,311
Like, so there is another...
415
00:45:28,809 --> 00:45:32,572
There's, like, m- there's multiple people involved in the data wars.
416
00:45:32,768 --> 00:45:34,479
And I think that one of the trick...
417
00:45:34,611 --> 00:45:40,776
One of the reasons why, if anyone's listening to this and they're like, "I see the data war, but it's been, it's been a multi-generational...
418
00:45:40,808 --> 00:45:42,408
It's a war, it's a forever war."
419
00:45:42,689 --> 00:45:47,751
It's like the thing that's gonna cause this to go into open warfare, in my opinion, is AI.
420
00:45:47,751 --> 00:45:48,227
Mm-hmm.
421
00:45:48,227 --> 00:46:03,214
Because what we're seeing is, as people are like, "Okay, I wanna use MCP, you know, connect my AI models to my information," you- you're sort of seeing organizations realize that data strategy and AI strategy are the same.
422
00:46:03,218 --> 00:46:03,234
Yes.
423
00:46:03,608 --> 00:46:10,387
And so trying to figure out, if you're an executive, you're like, "How are we gonna leverage AI?" It's like, okay, well, you better win the data wars.
424
00:46:10,682 --> 00:46:14,431
Because if you don't win your data war your AI strategy is bombed.
425
00:46:14,441 --> 00:46:14,452
Yeah.
426
00:46:14,730 --> 00:46:27,973
And so because of that, I think executives are starting to realize it which is gonna, over the next 24 months, create open discussion around this data war situation much more than it has in the past.
427
00:46:28,791 --> 00:46:53,587
Yeah, and I think that's why it's so important, like if you're an owner and a contractor in today's environment, the fact that the platforms themselves are starting to talk to one another so that you don't have to duplicate the data in both persons' system so that you both have ownership of
the data, that is going to be vital as we move forward with AI.
428
00:46:53,596 --> 00:46:54,453
You're exactly right.
429
00:46:54,470 --> 00:46:57,178
If- it's just like the people process tech thing.
430
00:46:57,207 --> 00:47:01,583
If you don't get the data right first, the AI's just gonna be faster at being wrong.
431
00:47:02,295 --> 00:47:02,592
Yeah.
432
00:47:03,094 --> 00:47:12,032
And also, the, the truth m- point that you made when you're like, "Okay, what is true to who?" And it's a moving target.
433
00:47:12,408 --> 00:47:16,116
You also have to like add another actor in there, which is your AI models.
434
00:47:16,373 --> 00:47:16,392
Mm-hmm.
435
00:47:16,392 --> 00:47:32,841
So like my example is like people are now thinking about FID-ing a project, and this is, for project control teams, this is a nightmare 'cause it's like, okay, you send your, PowerPoint awesome deck to the executives, like, "Here's your monthly status of the project, risk, cost, schedule, boom."
436
00:47:33,124 --> 00:47:34,697
And it looks beautiful as a PDF.
437
00:47:35,408 --> 00:47:52,528
I believe executives today are taking that PDF and also getting an email from their CFO about where the finances are at, maybe last month's, who knows, grabbing that, throwing it into, Claude, and then also maybe like some other information, reports from the field.
438
00:47:52,548 --> 00:47:59,821
Who knows, right? They'll like grab a folder of data and throw it all together, and then AI will generate whatever it wants.
439
00:47:59,832 --> 00:48:03,125
So, so it's like the truth has to be curated a little bit.
440
00:48:03,129 --> 00:48:03,144
Yeah.
441
00:48:03,212 --> 00:48:17,227
And if you have people just randomly grabbing stuff and throwing it in, it sort of breaks project control's value to the project if they- Mm-hmm can't get a handle on like how people are using AI to have these conversations.
442
00:48:17,236 --> 00:48:34,084
So, so if you have truth lag, you have duplicate data, you've got Excels floating around everywhere, you don't have a single source of truth, and then you layer AI on top which is what's happening, I think the executives are gonna start thinking that they have- insights that aren't actually true.
443
00:48:34,126 --> 00:48:38,636
They're actually like- Right getting fragmented, sort of this, this used to be true, but it's not.
444
00:48:38,660 --> 00:48:47,135
And the, the problem is AI can take all this what would we would call garbage data and actually make it look amazing.
445
00:48:47,141 --> 00:48:56,604
So it's no longer like- Oh, yeah garbage in, garbage out, where you're like, oh, combine cost and schedule, and you throw in something from finance that's three months old, and it's like obviously wrong.
446
00:48:56,648 --> 00:48:59,930
You're like, oh, the forecast line doesn't have, there's no actuals here.
447
00:48:59,939 --> 00:49:03,405
Something like that, AI will just fill, AI will make it look right.
448
00:49:03,747 --> 00:49:05,985
And that's- Yep the insidious trap.
449
00:49:05,994 --> 00:49:14,258
It's garbage in, sh- you know, poisonous sugar cookies out that look- Yeah delicious and will kill you.
450
00:49:14,486 --> 00:49:14,833
Yeah.
451
00:49:15,061 --> 00:49:22,128
Yeah, that's the thing is it always, it looks like an incredible answer, and it's incredibly wrong.
452
00:49:22,163 --> 00:49:22,521
Yep.
453
00:49:22,624 --> 00:49:22,967
Yeah.
454
00:49:24,742 --> 00:49:25,525
Oh, man.
455
00:49:25,599 --> 00:49:29,238
Okay, last question for you on your list of the 28.
456
00:49:29,629 --> 00:49:31,285
The vacation test.
457
00:49:31,684 --> 00:49:32,925
Most teams fail it.
458
00:49:32,932 --> 00:49:43,213
What is the vacation test, and why, why do people fail it? So the vacation test is like a, um, a, it's a systems question.
459
00:49:43,673 --> 00:49:48,092
It tests how well your systems are and really your leadership in general.
460
00:49:48,396 --> 00:49:57,885
If you can't walk away and your team operate without you, your systems are broken, and your leadership is not transferable.
461
00:49:58,390 --> 00:50:00,418
And so that's what the vacation test is.
462
00:50:00,418 --> 00:50:09,647
If you can't take a week off of work and everything still runs smoothly, then you have a systems problem and a leadership problem.
463
00:50:09,647 --> 00:50:14,921
And so it's, it's both personal and organizational, uh, which is interesting.
464
00:50:15,197 --> 00:50:20,362
And that's why I like that test because it points powerfully at two different things.
465
00:50:21,709 --> 00:50:23,006
That's a really great one.
466
00:50:23,059 --> 00:50:29,951
Like, how would you see someone do The vacation test, like if you have a standup with your team, that might be a good idea.
467
00:50:29,952 --> 00:50:32,353
You could be like, "AJ's vacation test.
468
00:50:33,165 --> 00:50:37,281
Could any one of us leave right now for a week, or would we be screwed?" Yeah.
469
00:50:37,281 --> 00:50:41,843
Is that kind of a nice way to maybe just try out the vacation test? It is.
470
00:50:41,845 --> 00:50:50,321
I mean, it's- Hopefully you get a chance to take a week vacation to test it, right? Um, that, that's the ideal way to do it.
471
00:50:50,584 --> 00:51:00,453
And, uh, and so but, yeah, the Essentially a way to test it would be, like, pick someone in your weekly standup and say, "All right.
472
00:51:00,490 --> 00:51:08,706
This week you don't get to do your normal job," and pick the second person, "You don't get..."
473
00:51:08,747 --> 00:51:10,812
And swap them, right? Right.
474
00:51:10,817 --> 00:51:15,349
Like, You're gone this week, so you can't do any of your typical tasks.
475
00:51:15,349 --> 00:51:21,167
We're all gonna pick up the slack, and someone else is gone this week and you're gonna do all their..."
476
00:51:21,218 --> 00:51:25,266
Y- you know, you kind of swap it out and make sure that, that
people can operate without.
477
00:51:25,274 --> 00:51:35,298
But ideally the best way- Yeah, yeah To test it is to just practice it, to take time off, to renew, to refresh and to avoid your email.
478
00:51:35,504 --> 00:51:44,095
This is another, this is probably another one that I fail at really badly because I'm not very good at avoiding email even when on vacation.
479
00:51:44,485 --> 00:51:49,992
I get pretty good at responding at at not responding to stuff that's not necessary.
480
00:51:50,339 --> 00:52:06,071
But, like, I'm a zero inbox guy, so at the end of every day when the kids have gone to bed and I'm sitting in wherever we're at by myself, I'm clearing out all the spam and the crap that I don't have to respond to so at least I don't come back to 1,000 emails.
481
00:52:06,071 --> 00:52:08,463
I come back to 100, you know? Yeah.
482
00:52:08,463 --> 00:52:16,701
But, uh, I'm not very good at this one, but the At least the team is operating without me having to, like, make decisions.
483
00:52:18,038 --> 00:52:18,444
Yeah.
484
00:52:18,985 --> 00:52:20,518
No, that's It's a great tip.
485
00:52:21,100 --> 00:52:39,887
So as you looking at your 28 rules and thinking about all the conferences you've been to, do you have one takeaway that you would want this audience to to leave with today? Some, some little nugget of information that you'd love for someone to grab onto.
486
00:52:40,907 --> 00:52:45,719
So I'll go back to construction's very risk-adverse.
487
00:52:46,801 --> 00:52:56,582
And, uh, and you, you mentioned kind of blame and, uh, and hiding things being, like, death sentences to careers.
488
00:52:58,067 --> 00:53:10,873
One of the things that I've noticed or at least experienced is what is a, can be a, a rocket ship for a career is take- being willing to take risks.
489
00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:19,967
Volunteering for crazy, right? Like that one project that sounds like it's gonna be a horrible project.
490
00:53:19,976 --> 00:53:23,144
It'll be awesome to build, but it's gonna be like a bear.
491
00:53:23,145 --> 00:53:29,986
We got a tight schedule, bad budget, logistical nightmare, whatever it might be, right? And volunteering for that.
492
00:53:30,512 --> 00:53:38,262
Or taking something as crazy as, you know, your company's gonna overhaul their entire tech system and say, "Hey, that sounds fun.
493
00:53:38,327 --> 00:54:06,288
I wanna go do that," right? Like, what I get most inspired by when I'm at conferences is a lot of times the people who are up on stage sharing a success volunteered to do something crazy or risky or that wasn't a sure thing- Yeah and it paid off, right? And, uh, and so that's one thing that I, I'd say I've learned over the course of the years is that being willing to, to do crazy.
494
00:54:07,104 --> 00:54:13,280
And then when crazy fails, going back to the being honest about it.
495
00:54:14,075 --> 00:54:23,221
Like, most of the stuff that, that I talk about at conferences, most of the stuff that I, I write about in blogs are things I've done wrong.
496
00:54:23,650 --> 00:54:24,322
They're failures.
497
00:54:25,086 --> 00:54:34,456
And here's what we learned, right? So just being okay with saying I'm talking right now because I just screwed up a lot.
498
00:54:34,731 --> 00:54:40,074
I screwed up more, more often and I was willing to admit what I learned.
499
00:54:40,177 --> 00:54:41,466
Like, here's what happened.
500
00:54:41,907 --> 00:54:52,129
And my goal is, is to hope that you don't have to screw up the same way," and that's why I share it, right? So you don't have to step on the same landmine that I already blew up on.
501
00:54:53,999 --> 00:54:54,641
Awesome.
502
00:54:54,832 --> 00:54:58,873
And I, uh, we're gonna link to all of your awesome content, including your podcast.
503
00:54:58,883 --> 00:55:04,789
Uh, which can't wait to, uh, share with the audience, and to come on it, which thank you for the invite.
504
00:55:04,804 --> 00:55:05,253
Yeah.
505
00:55:05,289 --> 00:55:05,685
Yes, sir.
506
00:55:05,693 --> 00:55:08,064
We'll be, we'll be doing this episode on in reverse.
507
00:55:08,367 --> 00:55:08,789
Wow.
508
00:55:09,427 --> 00:55:22,603
We'll include links to your podcast, of course, on the website and down below so anybody listening to this can, uh, you know, hit the website button and queue up an episode of The Engineer Life Enginerd Life.
509
00:55:22,956 --> 00:55:23,090
Yeah.
510
00:55:23,108 --> 00:55:24,452
Um, that sounds great.
511
00:55:24,471 --> 00:55:29,583
That's good Uh, yep, just make your project a little bit better every day by listening to an episode.
512
00:55:29,939 --> 00:55:35,244
AJ, thanks for joining us, sharing your expertise, offering up your podcast.
513
00:55:35,562 --> 00:55:41,566
In s- if the audience wants to find out more about you, is LinkedIn the best way to connect? Yep.
514
00:55:41,662 --> 00:55:43,356
Yeah, I would reach out on LinkedIn.
515
00:55:43,380 --> 00:55:47,058
I'm open to messages all the time.
516
00:55:47,166 --> 00:55:48,595
I love to hear from people.
517
00:55:48,640 --> 00:55:53,109
I'll respond as fast as I can, so it's usually less than a few days.
518
00:55:53,148 --> 00:55:57,355
But yeah, hit me up on LinkedIn, AJ Waters, super simple.
519
00:55:58,933 --> 00:56:02,838
AJ, thanks so much for taking the time to join today.
520
00:56:02,989 --> 00:56:03,993
Really appreciate it.
521
00:56:04,607 --> 00:56:05,383
Thank you, Orion.
522
00:56:05,383 --> 00:56:06,308
This was awesome.
523
00:56:06,475 --> 00:56:07,500
You did a great job.
524
00:56:07,865 --> 00:56:11,348
I love your podcast, and I'm super excited to be a part of it.