התמלול המלא של 223: Kim Malone Scott - Using Radical Candor To Be A Great Boss

going to be a great boss. 72 00:04:12.900 --> 00:04:15.710 You know, that's not what moves people down on the 73 00:04:15.759 --> 00:04:19.810 care personally dimension. And who starts out their career thinking, 74 00:04:19.829 --> 00:04:22.589 you know, I'm not going to tell somebody when they've 75 00:04:22.629 --> 00:04:24.649 screwed up. I'm just going to let them make the 76 00:04:24.689 --> 00:04:27.230 same mistake over and over and over again and then 77 00:04:27.310 --> 00:04:30.459 fire them for it. Like that's not the intention that that. 78 00:04:31.040 --> 00:04:34.459 that managers have when they become managers. And yet it happens. 79 00:04:34.560 --> 00:04:36.540 Both those things happen all too often. 80 00:04:37.660 --> 00:04:37.920 Yeah. 81 00:04:38.480 --> 00:04:42.639 Interestingly, I have found great bosses in my career, Kim, 82 00:04:42.740 --> 00:04:48.639 who I deeply respected, who were not afraid to let 83 00:04:48.660 --> 00:04:50.620 me know when I messed up and tried to help 84 00:04:50.660 --> 00:04:54.519 me and coach and also cared about me personally. And 85 00:04:54.560 --> 00:04:59.060 so I, in effect, I love them and I realize 86 00:04:59.100 --> 00:05:01.420 that they were willing to challenge me. So can you 87 00:05:01.480 --> 00:05:05.060 be both highly respected and highly liked? 88 00:05:05.620 --> 00:05:07.000 And should you care as a boss? 89 00:05:07.800 --> 00:05:11.509 You can be. And when you're really lucky, you are. 90 00:05:11.529 --> 00:05:15.290 When you're really lucky, not only are you liked by 91 00:05:15.730 --> 00:05:18.290 your team, you love your team and they love you. 92 00:05:18.930 --> 00:05:22.009 But if you set that as your goal, by the way, 93 00:05:22.089 --> 00:05:24.230 when I say love, I mean it in the appropriate 94 00:05:24.269 --> 00:05:26.389 sense of the word. I'm not talking about things that 95 00:05:26.430 --> 00:05:27.709 destroy marriages. 96 00:05:27.930 --> 00:05:28.100 Me too. 97 00:05:28.720 --> 00:05:31.800 But we do spend more time at work than in 98 00:05:32.180 --> 00:05:34.670 any other part of our lives. So we may as 99 00:05:34.730 --> 00:05:38.370 well have relationships that have real meaning for us at work. 100 00:05:39.089 --> 00:05:41.029 And in fact, I would say at the very heart 101 00:05:41.129 --> 00:05:44.550 of being a good boss is a good relationship with 102 00:05:44.610 --> 00:05:49.970 each employee. The problem comes when you start to seek 103 00:05:50.189 --> 00:05:54.930 popularity as a leader, as a boss, rather than doing 104 00:05:54.959 --> 00:05:57.329 the right thing for your people. There's a big difference. 105 00:05:57.470 --> 00:06:00.730 This is true, by the way, in any relationship, not 106 00:06:00.769 --> 00:06:05.230 just in the boss-employee relationship. When you put how the 107 00:06:05.329 --> 00:06:10.069 other person is going to feel about you ahead of 108 00:06:11.670 --> 00:06:15.350 your obligation to tell them when

their work isn't good enough, 109 00:06:16.269 --> 00:06:18.829 and that they need to improve it, then all of 110 00:06:18.889 --> 00:06:21.829 a sudden you're not worried about the other person. You're 111 00:06:21.870 --> 00:06:25.329 not caring about the other person. You're caring about your 112 00:06:25.370 --> 00:06:30.839 own reputation. And that's what's so dangerous. Johnny Ive tells 113 00:06:30.899 --> 00:06:34.259 a really good story about this. He said that Johnny Ive, 114 00:06:35.220 --> 00:06:39.620 who's the chief design officer at Apple, said that one 115 00:06:39.680 --> 00:06:42.610 time he was doing a design review with Steve Jobs 116 00:06:43.089 --> 00:06:47.810 and the team had not prepared adequately. The work wasn't 117 00:06:47.860 --> 00:06:52.019 good enough. And Steve said so in no uncertain terms. 118 00:06:52.540 --> 00:06:56.000 And after the meeting, Johnny said, why did you have 119 00:06:56.060 --> 00:07:01.060 to be so harsh on the team? And Steve said, well, 120 00:07:01.079 --> 00:07:03.709 why didn't you, did you think the work was good enough? 121 00:07:03.790 --> 00:07:05.990 And Johnny said, no. And he said, why didn't you 122 00:07:06.069 --> 00:07:10.350 tell them? You are just vain. You wanted to be liked. 123 00:07:11.250 --> 00:07:14.189 And Johnny kind of shook his head when he told 124 00:07:14.209 --> 00:07:17.689 the story and said, I was terribly cross because I 125 00:07:17.750 --> 00:07:21.120 realized that Steve was right. And this happens to all 126 00:07:21.139 --> 00:07:23.959 of us. I mean, we do. It's a fundamental human 127 00:07:24.000 --> 00:07:27.620 desire to be liked. But sometimes that desire gets in 128 00:07:27.660 --> 00:07:30.319 your way of doing what's best for the other person 129 00:07:30.379 --> 00:07:32.689 long term. There's sort of a short term, long term 130 00:07:32.730 --> 00:07:35.569 problem here. In the short term, you may say something 131 00:07:35.610 --> 00:07:38.850 to somebody that stings a little bit or even really 132 00:07:38.930 --> 00:07:41.370 upsets them. But it's important for them to know. 133 00:07:43.980 --> 00:07:47.420 You share a story in the book about something I 134 00:07:47.459 --> 00:07:51.980 personally went through where, particularly when I was a newer manager, 135 00:07:52.699 --> 00:07:57.639 boss of people, I wanted to be respected and liked. 136 00:07:57.680 --> 00:08:01.259 I just brought it up already. And sometimes you skew. 137 00:08:01.370 --> 00:08:04.649 And if you're newer, I think this might be more common, 138 00:08:04.689 --> 00:08:08.149 I guess. But you skew on the side of Not 139 00:08:08.209 --> 00:08:11.439 wanting to make them upset with you as Johnny. I 140 00:08:11.459 --> 00:08:13.399 believe some people do. Others just want to come in 141 00:08:13.420 --> 00:08:15.920 there and turn the place upside down, which. 142 00:08:15.839 --> 00:08:16.360 Is another part. 143 00:08:16.879 --> 00:08:20.029 And so I learned quickly that I had to learn 144 00:08:20.050 --> 00:08:22.050 this from others who helped me, who had been there 145 00:08:22.069 --> 00:08:25.930 before me, that feedback truly is a gift that you 146 00:08:25.970 --> 00:08:28.399 need to be giving on a regular basis. And sometimes 147 00:08:28.480 --> 00:08:33.240 it's critical feedback. And that is what they deserve. And 148 00:08:33.340 --> 00:08:36.279 as the boss, you need to give that. And I 149 00:08:36.820 --> 00:08:39.299 actually still mess this up from time to time, I know, 150 00:08:40.000 --> 00:08:42.960 because you feel like I want to. 151 00:08:42.940 --> 00:08:45.639 Be a good dude, I want to be liked. 152 00:08:46.940 --> 00:08:50.750 But in reality, they need that tough feedback to help 153 00:08:50.809 --> 00:08:53.450 them improve. Can you share the story about when you 154 00:08:53.610 --> 00:08:57.169 made this mistake earlier in your career as a new CEO? 155 00:08:57.909 --> 00:09:01.610 Sure, absolutely. So I had just hired this guy. We'll 156 00:09:01.649 --> 00:09:05.289 call him Bob. And I really liked Bob. He was funny. 157 00:09:05.309 --> 00:09:08.279 He was charming. He would do stuff like one time 158 00:09:08.320 --> 00:09:11.539 we were at a manager off-site and we were playing 159 00:09:11.639 --> 00:09:15.820 one of those ridiculous get-to-know-you games that takes forever. Everybody 160 00:09:15.879 --> 00:09:18.039 hates it, but nobody wants to be the jerk who 161 00:09:18.080 --> 00:09:23.269 says this is an utter waste of time. And so 162 00:09:23.429 --> 00:09:27.269 Bob said... you know, I've got a great idea and 163 00:09:27.330 --> 00:09:30.240 it'll be way faster. Why don't we just go around 164 00:09:30.279 --> 00:09:34.000 the room and tell what candy our parents used when 165 00:09:34.059 --> 00:09:37.389 potty training us? Weird, but fast. So we all did it. 166 00:09:37.759 --> 00:09:39.960 And then for the next 10 months, every time there 167 00:09:40.000 --> 00:09:42.740 was a tense moment in a meeting, Bob would whip 168 00:09:42.820 --> 00:09:45.039 out just the right piece of candy for the right 169 00:09:45.080 --> 00:09:48.610 person at the right moment. So anyway, we found Bob 170 00:09:48.769 --> 00:09:52.330 charming and funny. We liked working with Bob. One problem. 171 00:09:53.350 --> 00:09:57.820 Bob was doing terrible work, absolutely terrible work. I couldn't 172 00:09:57.860 --> 00:10:01.519 understand it because he had this amazing resume. He had 173 00:10:01.840 --> 00:10:04.740 all these great accomplishments under his belt. But when he 174 00:10:04.779 --> 00:10:07.610 would hand something into me, there would be shame in 175 00:10:07.679 --> 00:10:11.470 his eyes. He knew it wasn't good enough. I learned later, actually, 176 00:10:11.529 --> 00:10:14.649 the problem was that Bob was smoking pot in the 177 00:10:14.669 --> 00:10:17.269 bathroom a couple of times a day, which maybe explained 178 00:10:17.289 -->

00:10:19.710 all that candy. But anyway, I didn't know any of 179 00:10:19.750 --> 00:10:21.769 that at the time. All I knew was that Bob 180 00:10:21.789 --> 00:10:24.149 would hand something in to me with shame in his eyes. 181 00:10:24.710 --> 00:10:27.860 And just trying to be nice, just trying to buck 182 00:10:27.940 --> 00:10:31.740 Bob up, I would say, Bob, you know, you're so awesome. 183 00:10:31.759 --> 00:10:34.299 The whole team loves working with you. You're so smart. 184 00:10:34.679 --> 00:10:37.200 This is a great start, but maybe you could make 185 00:10:37.220 --> 00:10:40.519 it a little better. And of course, he never did. 186 00:10:41.399 --> 00:10:47.250 And eventually the inevitable happened. And I realized that if 187 00:10:47.330 --> 00:10:49.889 I didn't fire Bob, I was going to lose half 188 00:10:49.929 --> 00:10:52.389 my team because they were all having to correct his 189 00:10:52.450 --> 00:10:55.799 work and fix his mistakes and really redo a lot 190 00:10:55.820 --> 00:10:58.399 of what he should have been doing. And so I 191 00:10:58.480 --> 00:11:02.139 sat down to tell Bob how things stood, to have 192 00:11:02.159 --> 00:11:05.659 this conversation that I should have begun 10 months previously 193 00:11:05.679 --> 00:11:09.309 and And when I had finished, Bob pushed his chair 194 00:11:09.350 --> 00:11:11.769 back from the table. He looked at me right in 195 00:11:11.809 --> 00:11:14.490 the eye and he said, why didn't you tell me? 196 00:11:16.090 --> 00:11:18.809 And as that question was going around in my head 197 00:11:18.870 --> 00:11:21.889 with no good answer, he looked at me again and 198 00:11:21.929 --> 00:11:25.710 he said, why didn't anyone tell me? I thought you 199 00:11:25.730 --> 00:11:29.529 all cared about me. And that to me was the 200 00:11:29.649 --> 00:11:33.590 worst moment of my career because I realized that I 201 00:11:33.649 --> 00:11:37.000 had failed Bob in a bunch of different ways. I 202 00:11:37.029 --> 00:11:40.799 had failed to solicit feedback from him. Maybe I was 203 00:11:40.840 --> 00:11:43.500 doing something that was driving him so crazy he was 204 00:11:43.539 --> 00:11:45.940 forced to toke up in the bathroom. But I didn't 205 00:11:45.960 --> 00:11:47.679 know about it because I never asked him. I never 206 00:11:47.899 --> 00:11:50.799 asked him to criticize me. And I never asked him 207 00:11:50.899 --> 00:11:53.220 to praise what was going well. So I had no 208 00:11:53.299 --> 00:11:56.820 idea what was going on in Bob's mind. I also 209 00:11:56.960 --> 00:12:01.230 failed to give him praise that would really let him 210 00:12:01.259 --> 00:12:03.470 know what was genuinely good. The kind of praise I 211 00:12:03.490 --> 00:12:05.590 gave him was really just a head fake or some 212 00:12:05.629 --> 00:12:09.049 kind of emotional salve. And I failed to tell him 213 00:12:09.070 --> 00:12:12.870 when his work wasn't nearly good enough. And probably worst 214 00:12:12.950 --> 00:12:17.340 of all, I had failed to create the kind of 215 00:12:17.440 --> 00:12:20.899 environment in which everyone would tell Bob what was truly good, 216 00:12:21.299 --> 00:12:23.759 but also tell Bob when he was going off the rails. 217 00:12:24.379 --> 00:12:28.909 And because I had made these mistakes, I'm now firing Bob. 218 00:12:29.389 --> 00:12:32.490 And that's the worst thing about being a manager is 219 00:12:32.529 --> 00:12:35.409 that nobody really teaches you what to do. And so 220 00:12:35.450 --> 00:12:39.039 you learn your biggest mistakes on the backs of other 221 00:12:39.100 --> 00:12:42.379 people And that's really what prompted me to come up 222 00:12:42.440 --> 00:12:47.110 with this radical candor framework to help people avoid making 223 00:12:47.139 --> 00:12:49.870 the mistake that I made. So let me describe. Can 224 00:12:49.909 --> 00:12:51.929 I take a couple of minutes and describe the framework 225 00:12:52.009 --> 00:12:54.190 so that other people can avoid doing what I did 226 00:12:54.230 --> 00:12:57.889 to Bob? Please. So the framework is this. And this 227 00:12:58.070 --> 00:13:00.730 goes for all communication at work, by the way, whether 228 00:13:00.789 --> 00:13:03.750 you're talking to your boss, your peer or your employee. 229 00:13:03.830 --> 00:13:06.009 It works up, down and sideways. But just think about 230 00:13:06.049 --> 00:13:08.990 it like this. When you're developing a relationship at work, 231 00:13:09.490 --> 00:13:12.299 you want to be radically candid. You want to both 232 00:13:12.440 --> 00:13:16.639 care and challenge at the same time. But that's hard. 233 00:13:16.940 --> 00:13:20.720 That's really hard. To make it a little bit easier, 234 00:13:20.779 --> 00:13:23.659 let's think about what happens when you fail on one 235 00:13:23.700 --> 00:13:28.519 dimension or another. So when you are so worried about 236 00:13:28.580 --> 00:13:32.490 somebody's feelings, as I was in this Bob case, that 237 00:13:32.529 --> 00:13:35.629 you fail to challenge them directly. You fail to tell 238 00:13:35.669 --> 00:13:38.730 them what's truly good and what's truly bad and what 239 00:13:38.769 --> 00:13:42.789 they're doing. I call that ruinous empathy. And that's the 240 00:13:42.909 --> 00:13:46.490 most common mistake that we make at work, both as 241 00:13:46.590 --> 00:13:50.360 employees and as managers. We do it to everybody. And 242 00:13:50.379 --> 00:13:56.399 when you fail on both dimensions at the same time 243 00:13:56.559 --> 00:13:59.529 when you neither care nor challenge. And this was part 244 00:13:59.570 --> 00:14:01.850 of what happened with Bob too. Part of the reason 245 00:14:01.889 --> 00:14:05.549 why I was so careful not to upset Bob was 246 00:14:05.590 --> 00:14:09.080 that I was afraid if Bob sort of started to 247 00:14:09.120 --> 00:14:12.519 cry or something in the office, Everybody would think I 248 00:14:12.559 --> 00:14:15.379 was a

terrible person. Everybody would think I was some 249 00:14:15.399 --> 00:14:18.259 kind of, you know, the the bitchy boss or whatever. 250 00:14:18.279 --> 00:14:21.350 And I didn't want to be that. And so that 251 00:14:21.389 --> 00:14:24.570 was also part of the reason why I didn't challenge Bob, 252 00:14:24.629 --> 00:14:26.690 not because I cared so much about him, but because 253 00:14:26.730 --> 00:14:29.809 I was worried about my own reputation and that mistake, 254 00:14:29.929 --> 00:14:32.649 which we all make from time to time. It's perfectly 255 00:14:32.850 --> 00:14:35.049 human to do it. You just have to try to 256 00:14:35.110 --> 00:14:39.070 avoid it. That mistake I call manipulative insincerity. I was 257 00:14:39.230 --> 00:14:42.240 not being sincere when I told Bob how I felt 258 00:14:42.299 --> 00:14:45.320 about his work, what I thought about his work. And then, 259 00:14:45.519 --> 00:14:48.279 of course, the other mistake that we make, we all 260 00:14:48.320 --> 00:14:51.379 make from time to time, is when we challenge but 261 00:14:51.419 --> 00:14:54.129 we fail to show we care. And that I call 262 00:14:54.250 --> 00:14:57.690 obnoxious aggression. And so when you're thinking about radical candor, 263 00:14:57.730 --> 00:15:01.049 it's really important to understand, not to judge people, don't 264 00:15:01.110 --> 00:15:04.549 use these terms to judge people, but use these terms 265 00:15:04.649 --> 00:15:09.259 to understand people. where conversations are headed. Are you moving 266 00:15:09.320 --> 00:15:13.299 towards radical candor or are you pulling your punches and 267 00:15:13.340 --> 00:15:18.289 moving towards ruinous empathy or even manipulative insincerity? Are you 268 00:15:18.370 --> 00:15:22.370 punching so hard that you're moving towards obnoxious aggression? And 269 00:15:22.409 --> 00:15:24.970 do you need to stop and attend to the other 270 00:15:25.029 --> 00:15:28.370 person's emotional reaction? Those are the questions I want to 271 00:15:28.409 --> 00:15:29.789 help people ask themselves. 272 00:15:31.179 --> 00:15:34.419 You also talk about, it's not about hierarchy or status 273 00:15:34.539 --> 00:15:37.159 or title. You need to have this go up and down, 274 00:15:37.220 --> 00:15:41.649 left and right. How do you go about, I'm thinking, Kim, 275 00:15:41.690 --> 00:15:43.049 one of the things I love about this show is 276 00:15:43.090 --> 00:15:46.990 that people often learn directly from our guests and they're 277 00:15:47.029 --> 00:15:49.950 able to implement and execute right away. They don't just 278 00:15:50.409 --> 00:15:52.830 have happy talk or happy listening in their car on 279 00:15:52.850 --> 00:15:56.210 their way to work. They can implement something and it 280 00:15:56.250 --> 00:15:59.620 could change their life, change their job. So I know 281 00:15:59.639 --> 00:16:02.110 this is a big one, but how do you create 282 00:16:02.149 --> 00:16:07.789 that culture of trust to where you empower everyone to 283 00:16:07.830 --> 00:16:11.529 show radical candor up, down, left, right, everywhere you look 284 00:16:11.590 --> 00:16:15.980 without people coming off as jerks or getting or some 285 00:16:16.000 --> 00:16:19.100 people have told me before, stay in your lane, that 286 00:16:19.120 --> 00:16:20.000 type of talk. 287 00:16:20.159 --> 00:16:22.419 How do you create a culture of that? 288 00:16:23.360 --> 00:16:26.480 So creating a culture of radical candor, the good news 289 00:16:26.740 --> 00:16:29.080 is it can be, you can do it top down. 290 00:16:29.259 --> 00:16:32.600 You can also do it bottoms up, right? So if 291 00:16:32.879 --> 00:16:37.240 you're sort of a new employee in an organization and 292 00:16:37.340 --> 00:16:41.279 you have a boss who you think is not being 293 00:16:41.340 --> 00:16:46.000 radically candid, you have some power in this situation to 294 00:16:46.070 --> 00:16:50.350 change it. And so whether you are the boss or 295 00:16:50.409 --> 00:16:53.610 the employee or a peer, the steps that you want 296 00:16:53.649 --> 00:16:57.269 to think through are basically the same. You want to 297 00:16:57.429 --> 00:17:03.090 start by asking for feedback. Don't dish it out until 298 00:17:03.129 --> 00:17:05.750 you prove you can take it. Lead by example, whether 299 00:17:05.789 --> 00:17:10.200 you're the leader or whether you're the employee. And so 300 00:17:10.220 --> 00:17:14.059 the simplest way to think about asking for feedback is 301 00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:17.660 to take the following four steps. First of all, come 302 00:17:17.720 --> 00:17:22.460 up with a go-to question. If you say to somebody, 303 00:17:22.539 --> 00:17:24.920 do you have any feedback for me? I can already 304 00:17:24.980 --> 00:17:27.279 tell you what the answer is. Oh, no, everything's fine. 305 00:17:27.299 --> 00:17:27.859 Yeah, you're good. 306 00:17:27.880 --> 00:17:31.839 Yeah, good. Yeah, people hate giving feedback. I knew that 307 00:17:31.940 --> 00:17:34.299 when I started this book. And after I've written it, 308 00:17:34.559 --> 00:17:37.519 I've learned even more how much people hate giving feedback. 309 00:17:37.599 --> 00:17:40.680 So you've got to really come up with a question 310 00:17:40.720 --> 00:17:42.930 that's going to make it hard for them to say, no, 311 00:17:44.349 --> 00:17:47.490 everything's fine. One question that I like to ask is, 312 00:17:48.240 --> 00:17:51.750 Is there anything I could do or stop doing that 313 00:17:51.789 --> 00:17:55.650 would make it easier to work for me or with me? Now, 314 00:17:57.150 --> 00:18:00.650 not everybody can ask that question. I worked with the 315 00:18:00.750 --> 00:18:04.250 CEO of OpenTable, and she said I could never ask 316 00:18:04.289 --> 00:18:07.200 that question. The question I like to ask is, Tell 317 00:18:07.240 --> 00:18:10.480 me why I'm smoking crack, right? So there's different ways 318 00:18:10.519 --> 00:18:11.140

to ask the question. 319 00:18:11.160 --> 00:18:12.440 Or is there a way to make it an open-ended 320 00:18:12.480 --> 00:18:14.680 question to say, what could I be doing to make 321 00:18:14.720 --> 00:18:17.779 it better or easier to work with me as opposed 322 00:18:17.819 --> 00:18:19.240 to a yes or no? 323 00:18:20.579 --> 00:18:25.079 Absolutely. Absolutely. That's a great suggestion. What could I do 324 00:18:25.160 --> 00:18:27.420 or stop doing that would make it easier to work 325 00:18:27.460 --> 00:18:27.720 with me? 326 00:18:27.900 --> 00:18:31.569 A lot of good companies, too, and sometimes I've employed 327 00:18:31.609 --> 00:18:34.369 an HR partner to help with this, where you can 328 00:18:34.390 --> 00:18:37.329 do start, stop, continue exercises with the boss, not in 329 00:18:37.369 --> 00:18:39.410 the room. And it'd be awesome if you could do 330 00:18:39.430 --> 00:18:40.769 it with the boss in the room and people are 331 00:18:40.789 --> 00:18:42.670 honest enough to do it. I think that would be great. 332 00:18:42.710 --> 00:18:44.039 I'd like to think I could have done that. 333 00:18:44.819 --> 00:18:45.400 But I've had it. 334 00:18:45.420 --> 00:18:47.519 Where I'm not in the room and you ask for 335 00:18:47.720 --> 00:18:50.140 whether you do it, would they have these 360 reviews? 336 00:18:50.960 --> 00:18:54.089 I really enjoy the start, stop, continue question because what 337 00:18:54.109 --> 00:18:57.430 should we start doing? What should I stop doing? And 338 00:18:57.670 --> 00:19:00.190 what do you really like that we should continue doing? 339 00:19:00.250 --> 00:19:03.349 I think that that's a kind of a three-pronged question 340 00:19:03.390 --> 00:19:06.569 that can elicit a lot of feedback if you've created 341 00:19:06.589 --> 00:19:07.759 the right culture of trust. 342 00:19:08.589 --> 00:19:11.170 Yeah, I totally agree. I think it's so, I call 343 00:19:11.210 --> 00:19:13.430 this in the book, I call this create a speak 344 00:19:13.529 --> 00:19:17.859 truth to power process. So if you are a leader 345 00:19:17.920 --> 00:19:21.380 in your organization, that's something that you can do. You 346 00:19:21.420 --> 00:19:25.099 can either use HR or some sort of consultant to 347 00:19:25.160 --> 00:19:28.910 have these start, stop, continue conversations where you gather information 348 00:19:28.950 --> 00:19:30.950 from a person's team. I think it's even better if 349 00:19:31.569 --> 00:19:36.210 you get the person's manager to have these conversations with 350 00:19:36.269 --> 00:19:39.529 the person's team. And you can do it pretty quickly. 351 00:19:39.549 --> 00:19:43.829 I describe in the book a quick and scalable process 352 00:19:43.930 --> 00:19:48.890 where you, as a leader, will talk to the employees 353 00:19:49.349 --> 00:19:52.160 of the people who work for you. It doesn't have 354 00:19:52.220 --> 00:19:54.740 to be like all the time. You can actually get 355 00:19:54.759 --> 00:19:57.119 a lot if you do this once or twice a 356 00:19:57.140 --> 00:19:58.940 year for each of the teams. You talk to the 357 00:19:58.980 --> 00:20:01.960 whole team at once. So I think that's so important 358 00:20:01.980 --> 00:20:05.980 to begin asking the question. But that's only the first step. 359 00:20:06.240 --> 00:20:09.029 Asking the question is only the first step. The next 360 00:20:09.150 --> 00:20:11.569 thing you need to do is figure out how to 361 00:20:11.710 --> 00:20:15.359 embrace the discomfort. I think we often make the mistake 362 00:20:15.430 --> 00:20:20.059 of thinking that if we just build trust, that then 363 00:20:20.180 --> 00:20:23.279 people will tell us the truth. But part of building 364 00:20:23.380 --> 00:20:27.160 trust is pulling what they really think out of people. 365 00:20:27.200 --> 00:20:31.750 And they're reluctant to tell you. And so everybody's reluctant 366 00:20:31.789 --> 00:20:34.329 to do this. So a simple way to embrace the 367 00:20:34.369 --> 00:20:40.230 discomfort is just to shut your mouth and count to six. See, 368 00:20:40.309 --> 00:20:42.150 I only made it to two and a half there. 369 00:20:43.470 --> 00:20:45.039 And when you count to six, it's got to be 370 00:20:45.059 --> 00:20:49.759 like one Mississippi, two Mississippi. It's not one, two, three, four, five, six. 371 00:20:50.160 --> 00:20:53.339 Almost nobody can endure that much silence. They will tell 372 00:20:53.400 --> 00:20:56.559 you something if you can keep your mouth shut for 373 00:20:56.680 --> 00:21:00.769 six seconds. So I really recommend that as sort of 374 00:21:00.789 --> 00:21:04.170 the second step. Now that you've dragged this information out 375 00:21:04.210 --> 00:21:07.089 of somebody, though, the third step is to listen with 376 00:21:07.109 --> 00:21:13.160 the intent to understand. not to reply. And so that 377 00:21:13.299 --> 00:21:16.380 might just mean repeating back what was said to you. 378 00:21:16.579 --> 00:21:19.859 Just to make sure I understand, what I heard from 379 00:21:19.900 --> 00:21:22.880 you is that you really hate the title of my book, 380 00:21:22.920 --> 00:21:25.069 Radical Candor. You hate the word radical and you hate 381 00:21:25.089 --> 00:21:28.630 the word candor. So I disagree with that. I love 382 00:21:28.710 --> 00:21:31.890 radical candor, but I would just state it back to you. 383 00:21:31.990 --> 00:21:33.549 Can I interrupt real quick, Kim? 384 00:21:33.690 --> 00:21:33.930 Sure. 385 00:21:33.950 --> 00:21:36.609 I know you mentioned it because I think some of 386 00:21:36.670 --> 00:21:39.460 this stuff is so on point. One of the issues 387 00:21:39.519 --> 00:21:41.640 I've seen at some point in the past of my 388 00:21:41.680 --> 00:21:45.210 career is where people make statements that they want to 389 00:21:45.250 --> 00:21:50.670 have these speak-truth-to-power moments where you can share your feedback 390 00:21:50.799 --> 00:21:54.670 and the person

who's in charge... says they're listening and 391 00:21:55.109 --> 00:21:57.210 they want to implement. And so then everyone kind of 392 00:21:57.259 --> 00:21:59.200 gets it out on the table and people actually do. 393 00:21:59.279 --> 00:22:03.160 They share some tough feedback with the boss or bosses 394 00:22:04.359 --> 00:22:06.640 and the boss kind of nods and they're there and they're, 395 00:22:06.660 --> 00:22:09.349 they're doing their thing. And then you look six months 396 00:22:09.390 --> 00:22:13.609 later and absolutely nothing has been done about what people 397 00:22:13.890 --> 00:22:16.410 had said, even if they brought solutions to the table 398 00:22:17.029 --> 00:22:20.009 in addition to their complaints. And so this is where 399 00:22:20.029 --> 00:22:22.869 I think as a leader or a boss, you think 400 00:22:22.910 --> 00:22:27.740 you're creating this culture of trust or this speak truth 401 00:22:27.779 --> 00:22:31.839 to power environment. Yet if you never follow up or 402 00:22:31.920 --> 00:22:34.759 follow through on the feedback you get, it's worthless. It's 403 00:22:34.779 --> 00:22:35.480 almost worse. 404 00:22:36.319 --> 00:22:37.619 It is definitely worse. 405 00:22:37.680 --> 00:22:38.380 To do it that way. 406 00:22:38.460 --> 00:22:42.329 And I've seen this personally happen. And at that point, 407 00:22:42.369 --> 00:22:46.869 then you just get a demoralized attitude. culture, because people 408 00:22:47.170 --> 00:22:50.349 have those moments, they air their frustrations, they hear frustrations 409 00:22:50.390 --> 00:22:52.630 of other people that they work with. And then they 410 00:22:52.690 --> 00:22:56.339 see nothing happens after all the head nods and to say, Oh, yeah, 411 00:22:56.359 --> 00:22:58.960 we'll take this back and all of that type of talk. 412 00:22:59.680 --> 00:23:01.960 And it becomes a really frustrating place. And that's when 413 00:23:01.980 --> 00:23:04.000 you start seeing attrition and things like that happen. 414 00:23:05.140 --> 00:23:08.450 Such an important point. And that's why the fourth step, 415 00:23:08.569 --> 00:23:12.650 once you've solicited feedback, is to reward the candor. Sometimes 416 00:23:12.750 --> 00:23:15.410 people think that they're doing a good job listening because 417 00:23:15.430 --> 00:23:19.369 they don't punish the candor. And that's not nearly good enough. 418 00:23:19.390 --> 00:23:21.809 You've got to actually reward it. So if you agree 419 00:23:22.309 --> 00:23:25.930 with the feedback, it's relatively straightforward. What you need to 420 00:23:25.970 --> 00:23:28.369 do is you need to fix the problem immediately. And 421 00:23:28.450 --> 00:23:31.490 you need to be very verbal about the fact that 422 00:23:31.529 --> 00:23:34.329 the reason why you're fixing the problem is that so-and-so 423 00:23:34.369 --> 00:23:37.450 brought it to your attention. And when more people bring 424 00:23:37.470 --> 00:23:40.059 problems to your attention, you're going to help fix them. 425 00:23:40.130 --> 00:23:44.200 So that's pretty straightforward. Of course, it's more complicated because 426 00:23:44.259 --> 00:23:49.410 sometimes you get feedback that you disagree with. And you 427 00:23:49.450 --> 00:23:53.119 don't want to come across as defensive or punishing the feedback, 428 00:23:53.680 --> 00:23:55.880 but nor do you want to pretend to agree when 429 00:23:55.900 --> 00:23:59.480 you disagree. That is not radical candor, nor is it 430 00:23:59.500 --> 00:24:03.940 good listening. It's manipulative insincerity is what it is. And 431 00:24:04.039 --> 00:24:09.460 so when you disagree with feedback that you've gotten, it's hard. 432 00:24:09.759 --> 00:24:11.759 And so the thing that I recommend that you do 433 00:24:11.880 --> 00:24:15.759 is you identify what's the 5% or 10% of what 434 00:24:15.799 --> 00:24:18.349 was said that you can agree with and focus on that. 435 00:24:19.069 --> 00:24:20.990 And then say, but there's some other stuff that you 436 00:24:21.049 --> 00:24:23.869 said that I really want to think about, but I'm 437 00:24:23.910 --> 00:24:25.779 not sure that I agree with you. Can I go 438 00:24:25.819 --> 00:24:28.059 away and think and then come back to you? And 439 00:24:28.079 --> 00:24:31.480 the reason to go away and think is because you do, A, 440 00:24:31.559 --> 00:24:33.480 you do want to think about it. Maybe you're just 441 00:24:33.519 --> 00:24:37.339 having a defensive reaction. And B, you're going to have 442 00:24:37.460 --> 00:24:40.440 probably a better conversation if you wait a day or two. 443 00:24:40.500 --> 00:24:44.359 But don't fail to come back. Sometimes the best the 444 00:24:44.519 --> 00:24:49.500 best reward of the candor is a fuller and more 445 00:24:49.700 --> 00:24:52.900 open description of why you disagree. Does that make sense? 446 00:24:53.109 --> 00:24:53.400 Yeah. 447 00:24:53.740 --> 00:24:55.740 I'm going to bounce around a little bit based on 448 00:24:55.789 --> 00:25:00.990 your background, Kim, if that's cool. So you've worked at Google, 449 00:25:01.990 --> 00:25:07.710 worked at Apple. You've started your own companies. You've coached CEOs. 450 00:25:07.769 --> 00:25:10.549 You've also been coached. And this is an important point 451 00:25:10.589 --> 00:25:13.920 I wanted to bring up. So you've quite accomplished. You've 452 00:25:13.980 --> 00:25:17.940 sustained excellence and yet you've also had CEO. 453 00:25:17.440 --> 00:25:19.609 Coaches or a coach for yourself. 454 00:25:19.710 --> 00:25:23.670 And I remember or I read when something happened from 455 00:25:23.690 --> 00:25:26.910 an emotional standpoint, you said, am I just some sort 456 00:25:26.930 --> 00:25:29.930 of emotional babysitter? And your coach told you, Leslie, I 457 00:25:29.970 --> 00:25:33.819 believe her name is, told you, no, it's called management 458 00:25:33.920 --> 00:25:35.240 and it's your job. And the reason I wanted to 459

00:25:35.259 --> 00:25:36.519 bring this up is I remember when I became a 460 00:25:36.559 --> 00:25:39.420 new manager for the first time, I was pretty young, 461 00:25:40.450 --> 00:25:44.420 and inexperienced, and there was a member of my team, 462 00:25:44.480 --> 00:25:47.390 someone I was managing who was older than me, came 463 00:25:47.470 --> 00:25:49.630 in and told me that their spouse had cheated on 464 00:25:49.650 --> 00:25:51.450 them and they were going to get a divorce and 465 00:25:51.809 --> 00:25:52.230 they didn't know. 466 00:25:52.170 --> 00:25:54.750 What to do. And how could I help? I'm in 467 00:25:54.769 --> 00:25:58.750 my twenties, not married at the time. And I'm thinking, what? 468 00:25:59.730 --> 00:26:02.049 And whenever someone says, what's the most surprising thing about 469 00:26:02.069 --> 00:26:04.109 being a manager? I always bring up that story. And 470 00:26:04.130 --> 00:26:07.690 I've had other ones, unfortunately, like that to where you 471 00:26:07.990 --> 00:26:11.289 do in some cases, almost as much of that type 472 00:26:11.329 --> 00:26:12.470 of discussion. 473 00:26:12.049 --> 00:26:12.690 With your people. 474 00:26:12.730 --> 00:26:14.730 Cause you do, as you said, you've got to care 475 00:26:14.789 --> 00:26:17.299 personally about, And you should if you're a good person. 476 00:26:18.019 --> 00:26:20.259 But that's a part of being a boss, being a manager. 477 00:26:21.240 --> 00:26:25.829 Yes, I think it's so important. All too often, people 478 00:26:26.049 --> 00:26:29.880 feel like The part of the job of management that 479 00:26:29.940 --> 00:26:32.809 is so central to it, which is listening to people, 480 00:26:32.849 --> 00:26:35.690 which is getting to know them at a personal level 481 00:26:35.990 --> 00:26:39.289 well enough that you can figure out what are the 482 00:26:39.410 --> 00:26:42.259 right opportunities for them right now, what are the wrong 483 00:26:42.339 --> 00:26:44.400 opportunities for them right now, where do they want to 484 00:26:44.420 --> 00:26:47.480 head in the future, all of that takes time and 485 00:26:47.519 --> 00:26:50.730 it takes time. getting to know the person at a 486 00:26:50.869 --> 00:26:56.079 human level. And I think very often people, even people 487 00:26:56.099 --> 00:26:59.059 who are really good managers, they enjoy that part of 488 00:26:59.099 --> 00:27:01.720 the job, but they don't view it as part of 489 00:27:01.779 --> 00:27:04.609 the job. They view it as almost like an extracurricular. 490 00:27:05.049 --> 00:27:08.769 And then when things get really busy or hectic or stressful, 491 00:27:09.369 --> 00:27:11.809 They resent having to do that part of the job. 492 00:27:11.849 --> 00:27:15.809 They resent the emotional labor of the job. But that 493 00:27:15.910 --> 00:27:18.250 is part of the work. That is part of what 494 00:27:18.309 --> 00:27:22.670 you do as a manager. And I think it becomes 495 00:27:22.750 --> 00:27:25.670

much easier to do it and to feel good about 496 00:27:25.710 --> 00:27:28.640 doing it if you remember that it's part of your job. 497 00:27:28.720 --> 00:27:32.440 It's not something you're doing just because you're a good person. 498 00:27:32.779 --> 00:27:35.460 You're doing it because it's actually part of your job description. 499 00:27:37.480 --> 00:27:40.440 Yeah, and the importance, I think, of having a coach, too. 500 00:27:41.039 --> 00:27:44.660 I don't want to shortchange that aspect. Some people, as 501 00:27:44.720 --> 00:27:47.900 I've said multiple times, I love the talk I had 502 00:27:47.940 --> 00:27:51.309 with J.J. Reddick when he said, you've never arrived, you're 503 00:27:51.369 --> 00:27:54.670 always becoming. And so even if you've accomplished some great things, 504 00:27:54.710 --> 00:27:57.529 that you still felt it important to have someone to 505 00:27:57.589 --> 00:28:00.970 help you and to coach you in your leadership role. 506 00:28:02.029 --> 00:28:05.859 Yes, the role of a coach is vital. I always say, 507 00:28:05.920 --> 00:28:08.420 people often ask me, what like, what do you talk 508 00:28:08.440 --> 00:28:11.059 to these people about? What is your job as a 509 00:28:11.200 --> 00:28:16.119 CEO coach? And there are things, being a leader is 510 00:28:16.140 --> 00:28:18.789 a very lonely job. And that's true. You don't have 511 00:28:18.829 --> 00:28:22.349 to be CEO to experience that loneliness. Being a middle 512 00:28:22.390 --> 00:28:25.869 manager can also be a very lonely job. And there 513 00:28:26.109 --> 00:28:32.089 are always things that as a boss, there's all this 514 00:28:32.250 --> 00:28:37.240 human dynamic on a team. And There are things that 515 00:28:37.259 --> 00:28:40.680 are happening that you don't want to talk to your 516 00:28:40.720 --> 00:28:42.539 boss about. You don't want to talk to your board 517 00:28:42.599 --> 00:28:48.430 about if you're the CEO because there's maybe performance problems 518 00:28:48.650 --> 00:28:53.730 or team dynamic problems, and you don't want somebody else 519 00:28:53.769 --> 00:28:55.869 to make the decision. You want to make the decision. 520 00:28:56.329 --> 00:28:58.579 So you don't really want to talk to your boss 521 00:28:58.839 --> 00:29:02.089 about these problems sometimes or your board about. And your 522 00:29:02.150 --> 00:29:05.490 spouse is sick of hearing about these problems. They really 523 00:29:05.569 --> 00:29:10.170 don't want to hear about the fight between two people 524 00:29:10.210 --> 00:29:13.609 on your team one more time. And so it's very 525 00:29:13.670 --> 00:29:17.609 helpful to have somebody who is paid to be on 526 00:29:17.650 --> 00:29:21.009 your side in these conflicts and to help you think 527 00:29:21.089 --> 00:29:24.079 through them and to hold up a mirror. Sometimes maybe 528 00:29:24.119 --> 00:29:26.720 you're considering whether or not you should fire somebody. And 529 00:29:28.480 --> 00:29:31.759 That's a hard decision. That's a really that's one of 530 00:29:31.779 --> 00:29:35.450 the most brutally hard decisions that you have to make 531 00:29:35.690 --> 00:29:39.799 as a manager. And it's really helpful to have a 532 00:29:39.839 --> 00:29:43.220 sounding board for those things. Sometimes you want to promote 533 00:29:43.299 --> 00:29:45.339 somebody and then you want to think through, is this 534 00:29:45.380 --> 00:29:47.359 the right thing for that person? Is it the right 535 00:29:47.400 --> 00:29:51.019 thing for the team? What are the unexpected consequences of 536 00:29:51.059 --> 00:29:54.349 doing this? Really helpful to have somebody to talk through 537 00:29:54.380 --> 00:29:55.390 those decisions with. 538 00:29:56.670 --> 00:29:59.089 So are you actively working with many CEOs right now 539 00:29:59.130 --> 00:30:00.190 or what's your day-to-day like? 540 00:30:01.079 --> 00:30:04.900 My day-to-day right now is I'm writing a new book 541 00:30:05.359 --> 00:30:11.069 and I am spending some time helping companies implement radical 542 00:30:11.130 --> 00:30:15.369 candor at scale. So I'm not doing very much CEO 543 00:30:15.410 --> 00:30:18.190 coaching because I find it doesn't scale. One of the 544 00:30:18.250 --> 00:30:21.960 things that that bothered me about being a CEO coach 545 00:30:22.019 --> 00:30:24.160 is that I felt I could only do it effectively 546 00:30:24.740 --> 00:30:28.359 for four or five people. And what I really wanted 547 00:30:28.420 --> 00:30:31.950 to do is help, help these ideas of radical candor 548 00:30:32.029 --> 00:30:34.789 get out into the world in a much bigger way. 549 00:30:35.789 --> 00:30:37.809 So, uh, I know we're getting outside of the book 550 00:30:37.829 --> 00:30:40.549 a little bit, but I'm curious from your perspective, uh, 551 00:30:40.670 --> 00:30:44.400 as a life changing moment, how has this book changed 552 00:30:44.440 --> 00:30:44.779 your life? 553 00:30:46.299 --> 00:30:49.259 It's so interesting. I mean, this book has taken me 554 00:30:49.299 --> 00:30:52.960 in all kinds of different directions that I'm delighted to 555 00:30:53.000 --> 00:30:56.589 go in, some of them expected and others unexpected. The 556 00:30:56.690 --> 00:31:00.049 main way that this book has changed my life is 557 00:31:00.190 --> 00:31:03.970 to really make me think at a more fundamental level 558 00:31:04.619 --> 00:31:08.480 about ways we can scale the idea of radical candor. 559 00:31:10.970 --> 00:31:14.109 It's something that a lot of people have found helpful 560 00:31:14.650 --> 00:31:17.599 to think about, but very hard to put into practice. 561 00:31:18.299 --> 00:31:21.519 And I thought at first that technology would be an 562 00:31:21.579 --> 00:31:26.400 enormous help. And it turns out that at least technology 563 00:31:26.759 --> 00:31:31.039 as I had envisioned it was not that helpful to people. 564 00:31:31.079 --> 00:31:34.359 What was much more helpful to people was

just telling stories. 565 00:31:35.380 --> 00:31:39.180 reading stories in the book, sharing stories when we do 566 00:31:39.220 --> 00:31:43.880 talks and workshops, and sharing stories with each other. So 567 00:31:44.579 --> 00:31:47.349 one of the things that's been most interesting to me 568 00:31:47.789 --> 00:31:51.430 to learn about is the power of storytelling in terms 569 00:31:51.490 --> 00:31:54.289 of changing behavior. And that's been fun. 570 00:31:55.529 --> 00:31:58.230 I noticed one of your recent talks that I was watching, 571 00:31:58.470 --> 00:32:01.880 as you called me, was you started with a. 572 00:32:01.859 --> 00:32:07.670 Story and There's something about that that I had trouble 573 00:32:09.589 --> 00:32:10.269 looking away. 574 00:32:10.730 --> 00:32:14.900 I think we're so attracted to personal stories, especially people 575 00:32:14.920 --> 00:32:15.119 who are. 576 00:32:15.119 --> 00:32:16.299 Good at telling them that. 577 00:32:17.480 --> 00:32:21.750 I think that that can be useful when you're coaching 578 00:32:22.349 --> 00:32:25.769 other people, sharing maybe some mistakes that you've made or 579 00:32:25.809 --> 00:32:30.160 you've went through that could potentially help others. Avoid making 580 00:32:30.200 --> 00:32:34.759 those mistakes. How do you use stories when you're coaching, 581 00:32:34.960 --> 00:32:37.569 giving speeches, sharing this message? 582 00:32:38.670 --> 00:32:41.029 Well, why don't we why don't I answer that question 583 00:32:41.069 --> 00:32:41.769 with a story? 584 00:32:41.789 --> 00:32:44.599 I was hoping you would do that. 585 00:32:45.259 --> 00:32:48.930 So so. For me, one of the best examples of 586 00:32:48.970 --> 00:32:51.799 radical candor, and this is something all your listeners can 587 00:32:51.839 --> 00:32:55.279 do right now. Think about that moment in your career 588 00:32:55.299 --> 00:32:58.259 where somebody gave you some feedback that was hard to 589 00:32:58.319 --> 00:33:00.730 hear but really helpful for the rest of your career. 590 00:33:00.789 --> 00:33:05.069 So here's my moment. I had recently started a job 591 00:33:05.210 --> 00:33:09.099 at Google, and I was working for Sheryl Sandberg. And 592 00:33:09.500 --> 00:33:13.740 she had me give a presentation to Google's founders and 593 00:33:13.779 --> 00:33:18.000 the CEO about the AdSense business, the online AdSense business 594 00:33:18.019 --> 00:33:21.630 that I was leading. And I walked into the room, 595 00:33:22.170 --> 00:33:26.509 and there was Larry in his– or Sergey, rather, in 596 00:33:26.589 --> 00:33:29.880 his toe shoes walking. on an elliptical trainer in the 597 00:33:29.940 --> 00:33:33.170 corner of the room. And there was Eric Schmidt, the 598 00:33:33.210 --> 00:33:35.910 CEO at the time. It was like his brain had 599 00:33:35.950 --> 00:33:38.779 been plugged into his computer. He was so deep in 600 00:33:38.819 --> 00:33:42.680 his email. And like any normal person in this situation, 601 00:33:42.759 --> 00:33:45.380 I felt a little nervous. How in the world was 602 00:33:45.440 --> 00:33:48.630 I going to get their attention? Luckily, the business that 603 00:33:48.670 --> 00:33:50.759 I was leading was on fire. And when I said 604 00:33:50.859 --> 00:33:54.099 how many new AdSense customers we had added over the 605 00:33:54.140 --> 00:33:57.019 last couple of months, Eric's head jerks up out of 606 00:33:57.079 --> 00:33:59.559 his computer to the extent that you can come to 607 00:33:59.599 --> 00:34:03.380 a screeching halt on an elliptical trainer. Sergey came to 608 00:34:03.400 --> 00:34:06.440 a screeching halt. And they said, what do you need? 609 00:34:06.480 --> 00:34:10.300 Do you need more engineering resources? Do you need more 610 00:34:10.360 --> 00:34:13.480 marketing budget? So, you know, I'm feeling like the meeting 611 00:34:13.559 --> 00:34:17.039 went pretty well. In fact, I'm feeling like a genius. 612 00:34:17.840 --> 00:34:20.679 And as I was walking out of the room, I 613 00:34:20.719 --> 00:34:23.929 passed Cheryl and I was expecting kind of a high 614 00:34:23.989 --> 00:34:26.530 five or a good job or a pat on the back. 615 00:34:26.590 --> 00:34:31.070 And instead, Cheryl said to me, why don't you walk 616 00:34:31.110 --> 00:34:33.449 back to my office with me? And I thought, oh, boy, 617 00:34:33.610 --> 00:34:36.090 I screwed something up. I have no idea what it is, 618 00:34:36.250 --> 00:34:39.590 but I'm sure I'm about to hear about it. And. 619 00:34:40.969 --> 00:34:44.090 Cheryl started by telling me the good things that had happened, 620 00:34:44.150 --> 00:34:47.010 not in a feedback sandwich kind of way, but she 621 00:34:47.050 --> 00:34:50.190 seemed to genuinely mean it. And she was also telling 622 00:34:50.230 --> 00:34:52.570 me some things that I didn't know. But of course, 623 00:34:53.210 --> 00:34:55.429 that was all very interesting. But what I really wanted 624 00:34:55.469 --> 00:34:59.469 to know was what had I screwed up? And eventually 625 00:34:59.550 --> 00:35:02.960 Cheryl said to me, you said I'm a lot in there. 626 00:35:03.199 --> 00:35:07.010 Were you aware of it? And I breathed a huge 627 00:35:07.050 --> 00:35:09.800 sigh of relief. If that was all I had done wrong, 628 00:35:10.219 --> 00:35:11.980 it didn't really matter. I was fine. I kind of 629 00:35:12.000 --> 00:35:14.480 made a brush-off gesture with my hand, and I said, yeah, 630 00:35:14.500 --> 00:35:16.420 I know it's a verbal tick. It's no big deal, really. 631 00:35:17.219 --> 00:35:20.300 And then Cheryl said, I know a really good speech coach, 632 00:35:20.869 --> 00:35:23.510 Maureen Taylor at S & P Communications. Would you like 633 00:35:23.570 --> 00:35:27.750 an introduction? And again, I made this brush-off gesture with 634 00:35:27.949 --> 00:35:30.710 my hand, and I said, no, I'm busy. Didn't you 635 00:35:30.769 --> 00:35:34.429 hear about all those new customers? And

Cheryl stopped. She 636 00:35:34.469 --> 00:35:37.030 looked at me right in the eye and she said, 637 00:35:37.170 --> 00:35:41.309 when you say every third word, it makes you sound stupid. 638 00:35:42.250 --> 00:35:45.699 Now she has my full attention. And some people would 639 00:35:45.760 --> 00:35:48.519 say that it was mean of Cheryl to say that 640 00:35:48.619 --> 00:35:51.280 I sounded stupid, but it was the kindest thing she 641 00:35:51.300 --> 00:35:54.000 could possibly have done for me at that moment in 642 00:35:54.039 --> 00:35:57.389 my career. By the way, she wouldn't have said it 643 00:35:57.429 --> 00:35:59.969 that way to anybody else on her team because everybody 644 00:36:00.070 --> 00:36:03.239 else on her team were better listeners than I was. 645 00:36:03.599 --> 00:36:06.780 They weren't quite as bullheaded, but she knew those were 646 00:36:06.820 --> 00:36:09.139 the words she had to say to get through to 647 00:36:09.199 --> 00:36:12.019 me in order to get me to go see the 648 00:36:12.579 --> 00:36:15.159 S & P Communications. When I did, and I watched 649 00:36:15.219 --> 00:36:18.630 a video of myself presenting one of life's more painful 650 00:36:18.750 --> 00:36:24.460 experiences— I learned something important. Cheryl wasn't exaggerating. I really 651 00:36:24.539 --> 00:36:29.550 did say, um, every third word. And this was news 652 00:36:29.670 --> 00:36:31.769 to me. And it was news because I had been 653 00:36:31.789 --> 00:36:37.489 giving presentations my entire career. I had raised $ 35 million 654 00:36:38.300 --> 00:36:40.670 giving presentations. I thought I was pretty good at it. 655 00:36:41.340 --> 00:36:45.139 And this got me to thinking, why had nobody else 656 00:36:45.239 --> 00:36:47.980 told me? It was as though I'd been walking through 657 00:36:48.039 --> 00:36:51.300 my whole career with my fly down and nobody had 658 00:36:51.340 --> 00:36:54.519 had the common courtesy to tell me. So why had 659 00:36:54.559 --> 00:36:58.369 nobody told me? And what made it so seemingly easy 660 00:36:58.570 --> 00:37:01.150 for Cheryl to tell me? And that was when I 661 00:37:01.190 --> 00:37:04.670 realized that there were these two aspects to being a 662 00:37:04.710 --> 00:37:10.269 good boss. One is caring personally. I knew Cheryl cared 663 00:37:10.389 --> 00:37:13.710 about me as a human being. When I moved from 664 00:37:13.730 --> 00:37:17.409 New York to California and didn't know anybody, she, knowing 665 00:37:17.449 --> 00:37:19.909 that I loved to read, invited me to join her 666 00:37:19.949 --> 00:37:22.789 book group. When I had a family member who was sick, 667 00:37:22.969 --> 00:37:27.070 she said, make sure that you go home right now. 668 00:37:27.349 --> 00:37:30.289 I'm going to come up with a plan to cover 669 00:37:30.409 --> 00:37:32.969 you while you're out. And don't count it as vacation. 670 00:37:33.050 --> 00:37:35.289 Just take the time you need to be with your family. 671 00:37:35.329 --> 00:37:38.360 That's the most important thing right now. And it wasn't 672 00:37:38.400 --> 00:37:40.019 the sort of thing she did just for me. She 673 00:37:40.039 --> 00:37:42.320 did that sort of thing for everyone, all of her 674 00:37:42.340 --> 00:37:44.699 direct reports, everyone who worked directly with her. So we 675 00:37:44.800 --> 00:37:48.360 all knew that she had our, more than had our backs. 676 00:37:48.440 --> 00:37:51.849 She really had our growth in mind. But because she 677 00:37:51.869 --> 00:37:55.739 had our growth in mind, she wasn't, She wasn't going 678 00:37:55.780 --> 00:37:57.940 to pull her punches when we screwed up. She was 679 00:37:57.960 --> 00:38:00.219 going to let us know very clearly. She was going 680 00:38:00.239 --> 00:38:03.260 to challenge us very directly. And that, to me, is 681 00:38:03.599 --> 00:38:07.500 sort of the essence of radical candor and of good management. 682 00:38:08.280 --> 00:38:09.300 Wow, what a great boss. 683 00:38:10.039 --> 00:38:11.820 Yes, I was very, very lucky. 684 00:38:12.360 --> 00:38:15.099 She seems to have done okay for herself. 685 00:38:15.780 --> 00:38:18.920 Yes, yes, she has. Yeah. 686 00:38:19.920 --> 00:38:24.619 Thinking about the hiring process, my dad told me early 687 00:38:24.639 --> 00:38:27.300 in my career, he's my number one mentor in life, 688 00:38:27.380 --> 00:38:30.559 and he's the best. And he told me, you'll become 689 00:38:31.219 --> 00:38:35.340 rich and famous within this company, within whatever company you 690 00:38:35.380 --> 00:38:39.079 work for, if you get it right. And the most 691 00:38:39.139 --> 00:38:41.619 important decision you'll make is who you decide to bring 692 00:38:41.659 --> 00:38:47.099 into the business, who you decide to hire. And understand 693 00:38:47.139 --> 00:38:51.280 the qualities you're looking for, understand why, most importantly, why 694 00:38:51.300 --> 00:38:53.389 you're looking for, and then figure out a way to 695 00:38:54.389 --> 00:38:59.210 find that out through whatever interview process you create. And 696 00:38:59.250 --> 00:39:01.610 some of the things that you talk about are personality 697 00:39:01.630 --> 00:39:04.909 and drive and the characteristics you're looking for, motivations, career aspirations, 698 00:39:04.969 --> 00:39:08.130 and not necessarily about education or titles or experience. 699 00:39:09.179 --> 00:39:10.039 On paper. 700 00:39:10.280 --> 00:39:12.880 And also, it doesn't necessarily mean that you won't be 701 00:39:12.900 --> 00:39:16.079 a good manager if you haven't had direct reports in 702 00:39:16.099 --> 00:39:19.219 the past, because that's not always an indicator whether or 703 00:39:19.260 --> 00:39:21.929 not someone is or isn't or couldn't be a great boss. 704 00:39:22.489 --> 00:39:27.670 Can you expand on that aspect of hiring, promoting, just 705 00:39:27.690 --> 00:39:30.409 the importance of that aspect of of. 706 00:39:30.570 -->

00:39:31.840 Being a boss? 707 00:39:32.800 --> 00:39:37.659 Yes. One of the most important decisions that you make 708 00:39:38.699 --> 00:39:42.079 is who you hire. These are the people who are 709 00:39:42.139 --> 00:39:45.360 either going to make you successful or contribute to your failure. 710 00:39:46.000 --> 00:39:50.420 And as another piece of wisdom from my CEO coach, 711 00:39:50.500 --> 00:39:55.050 Leslie Koch, was if you're not dying to hire that person, 712 00:39:55.510 --> 00:40:00.110 don't hire them. It's so tempting when you have, quote unquote, 713 00:40:00.210 --> 00:40:02.949 a hole on your team, when you have this body 714 00:40:02.989 --> 00:40:05.250 of work that needs doing, you need to hire somebody 715 00:40:05.309 --> 00:40:08.969 to do the work. It's so tempting to to hire 716 00:40:09.070 --> 00:40:12.440 somebody who you're not dying to hire because you're dying 717 00:40:12.500 --> 00:40:15.860 to get this work done. But in the immortal words 718 00:40:15.940 --> 00:40:18.780 of Steve Jobs, it's better to have a hole than 719 00:40:18.820 --> 00:40:24.059 an asshole. So you want to hire great, great people, 720 00:40:24.139 --> 00:40:27.159 people who you're dying to hire because really if you're 721 00:40:27.179 --> 00:40:31.329 not dying to hire that person, if you have reservations 722 00:40:31.610 --> 00:40:34.369 or sort of you're not so sure about this or that, 723 00:40:35.469 --> 00:40:37.349 it's not going to get better. The next day is 724 00:40:37.369 --> 00:40:39.030 going to be worse than the first day. And the 725 00:40:39.070 --> 00:40:40.679 third day, you know, it's going to go in the 726 00:40:40.699 --> 00:40:42.559 wrong direction. And the same is true, by the way, 727 00:40:42.860 --> 00:40:45.860 of choosing a boss when you're choosing a job. If 728 00:40:45.880 --> 00:40:48.849 you're not dying to work for that person, don't take 729 00:40:48.889 --> 00:40:51.889 the job. So I think that's really important. But I 730 00:40:51.929 --> 00:40:56.980 think another mistake that that managers make is they think 731 00:40:57.219 --> 00:40:59.340 the only thing they have to do is hire great 732 00:40:59.380 --> 00:41:01.559 people and then they get and then just get out 733 00:41:01.599 --> 00:41:06.079 of their way. And I was once talking to Dick 734 00:41:06.119 --> 00:41:09.570 Costolo about this phenomenon and he burst out laughing and 735 00:41:09.590 --> 00:41:11.869 he said, yeah, that would be kind of like my 736 00:41:11.929 --> 00:41:15.250 saying to my wife that You're doing a great job 737 00:41:16.250 --> 00:41:19.449 raising those children. I don't want to micromanage. I'm just 738 00:41:19.489 --> 00:41:21.460 going to not come home for dinner for the next 739 00:41:21.460 --> 00:41:27.400 20 years. That wouldn't work out so well. Saying all 740 00:41:27.440 --> 00:41:29.940 I have to do is hire the right people and 741 00:41:29.960 --> 00:41:33.190 then never spend another minute with them is sort of 742 00:41:33.250 --> 00:41:35.530 like saying all I have to do is marry the 743 00:41:35.570 --> 00:41:38.510 right person. and then never spend another minute with them. 744 00:41:38.590 --> 00:41:41.070 That's not how you build a relationship. So you've got 745 00:41:41.090 --> 00:41:42.889 to hire the right people, but you also have to 746 00:41:42.969 --> 00:41:47.139 invest the time becoming a thought partner to each of 747 00:41:47.199 --> 00:41:51.619 those people who you hire. You can't just ignore them. 748 00:41:52.239 --> 00:41:55.820 Yeah, you hear that so much of people saying hire 749 00:41:55.840 --> 00:41:57.539 the right people and just kind of let them do 750 00:41:57.579 --> 00:41:59.780 their thing. The one thing, though, that Steve Jobs and 751 00:41:59.820 --> 00:42:02.159 Apple said is we hire people who tell us what 752 00:42:02.179 --> 00:42:04.300 to do, not the other way around. 753 00:42:04.760 --> 00:42:07.989 Yes, yes. You don't want to micromanage them. You want 754 00:42:08.010 --> 00:42:11.469 to listen to them. The way I think that you 755 00:42:11.570 --> 00:42:15.710 achieve results, the best results on a team, is you 756 00:42:15.730 --> 00:42:19.570 do it collaboratively. And that means that you don't tell 757 00:42:19.610 --> 00:42:22.119 people what to do. Telling people what to do doesn't work. 758 00:42:22.610 --> 00:42:25.510 You listen to them. You work with them to help 759 00:42:25.550 --> 00:42:28.369 them clarify their thinking. I think in the case of 760 00:42:28.409 --> 00:42:31.289 James Damore, he did not have a boss who helped 761 00:42:31.329 --> 00:42:34.300 him clarify his thinking. And it got him into a 762 00:42:34.320 --> 00:42:37.539 lot of trouble and got Google into a lot of trouble, frankly. 763 00:42:37.579 --> 00:42:40.300 It's a sad failure of radical candor. So you want 764 00:42:40.340 --> 00:42:42.760 to listen to them. You want to help them clarify 765 00:42:42.780 --> 00:42:48.219 their thinking. Another word of wisdom from Johnny Ive is 766 00:42:48.280 --> 00:42:52.719 that new ideas are fragile. Part of your job as 767 00:42:52.739 --> 00:42:55.800 a boss is to create a private space where people 768 00:42:55.840 --> 00:42:59.409 can come to you with new ideas and flesh them out, 769 00:42:59.530 --> 00:43:02.150 clarify them. So you want to listen to the thinking. 770 00:43:02.170 --> 00:43:05.489 You want to clarify it. Then you want to open 771 00:43:05.550 --> 00:43:07.750 it up to debate. You want to get the ideas 772 00:43:07.949 --> 00:43:11.190 of the whole team on these, the thoughts of the 773 00:43:11.230 --> 00:43:15.269 whole team on these new ideas, on these suggestions, on 774 00:43:15.289 --> 00:43:19.469 these changes that people are recommending. And then only after 775 00:43:19.510 --> 00:43:24.579 you've gone through that listen, clarify, debate process is it 776 00:43:24.699 --> 00:43:27.320 safe to make a decision. And your job as

the 777 00:43:27.360 --> 00:43:31.760 boss is very often not to be the decider. Your 778 00:43:31.800 --> 00:43:34.679 job as the boss is to make it clear who 779 00:43:34.719 --> 00:43:38.219 the decider is, to push decisions into the facts, to 780 00:43:38.300 --> 00:43:42.360 help the people who work for you build that decision-making muscle. 781 00:43:43.690 --> 00:43:46.369 And having made a decision, now you've got to make 782 00:43:46.409 --> 00:43:49.199 sure that you're bringing everybody along, that the rest of 783 00:43:49.239 --> 00:43:51.579 the team is persuaded. And then you've got to make 784 00:43:51.679 --> 00:43:56.199 sure that you get to execute. So often, managers think 785 00:43:56.260 --> 00:43:59.679 they have to just zoom right past all those steps 786 00:43:59.840 --> 00:44:02.940 to execution. But you've got to take the time to 787 00:44:02.980 --> 00:44:04.860 go through those steps, but you also need to make 788 00:44:04.909 --> 00:44:07.730 sure they don't take so long that people don't have 789 00:44:07.769 --> 00:44:11.070 time to execute. And then, of course, most painful of all, 790 00:44:11.190 --> 00:44:13.550 you've got to learn when you're right and when you're wrong. 791 00:44:13.650 --> 00:44:16.510 Sometimes you will have made the wrong decision or you 792 00:44:16.530 --> 00:44:20.570 will have executed poorly. And you've got to have the 793 00:44:20.610 --> 00:44:24.369 self-honesty to recognize that. And then you've got to start 794 00:44:24.409 --> 00:44:29.380 listening all over again. So it can feel sometimes slow 795 00:44:29.460 --> 00:44:32.769 and frustrating as a boss, but It's really important to 796 00:44:32.829 --> 00:44:35.409 make sure that you remember that your job is not 797 00:44:35.449 --> 00:44:38.769 to be the decider. Your job is not to tell 798 00:44:38.809 --> 00:44:41.369 people what to do. Your job is to create the 799 00:44:41.409 --> 00:44:45.210 conditions where people can achieve results collaboratively. 800 00:44:47.219 --> 00:44:52.280 Kim, one of the problems currently going on today that 801 00:44:52.320 --> 00:44:56.329 I've seen and heard is is people with these jammed 802 00:44:56.409 --> 00:44:58.190 up schedules of back to back to back to back 803 00:44:58.210 --> 00:45:01.010 to back meetings with no time to sit and think 804 00:45:01.090 --> 00:45:05.260 and reflect and learn from both success and failure. And 805 00:45:05.909 --> 00:45:10.179 I pulled a great quote from a phenomenal book in 806 00:45:10.219 --> 00:45:12.300 addition to yours that I'm reading about the Wright brothers. 807 00:45:13.079 --> 00:45:15.659 And this is people who are witnessing and watching how 808 00:45:15.699 --> 00:45:18.880 the Wright brothers worked down. They're from here in Dayton, Ohio, 809 00:45:18.900 --> 00:45:21.840 where I'm from, but they worked down in also North Carolina. 810 00:45:21.860 --> 00:45:25.090 And they said, We couldn't help thinking they were just 811 00:45:25.190 --> 00:45:28.130 a pair of poor nuts. They'd stand on the beach 812 00:45:28.210 --> 00:45:33.050 for hours at a time just looking at the birds flying, soaring, dipping. 813 00:45:33.489 --> 00:45:35.239 We thought they were crazy, but we just had to 814 00:45:35.280 --> 00:45:37.320 admire the way they could move their arms this way 815 00:45:37.360 --> 00:45:39.820 and that and bend their elbows and wrist bones up 816 00:45:39.860 --> 00:45:42.940 and down just like the birds. Orville said learning the 817 00:45:43.019 --> 00:45:45.519 secret of flight from a bird was a good deal 818 00:45:45.920 --> 00:45:48.820 like learning the secret of magic from a magician. The 819 00:45:48.880 --> 00:45:52.829 fact that they took time, they sat back, to analyze, 820 00:45:53.010 --> 00:45:56.539 to think, to not just be back to back to 821 00:45:56.579 --> 00:46:00.500 back on building the plane, but trying to understand maybe 822 00:46:00.539 --> 00:46:02.539 a better way to build the plane. And I thought 823 00:46:02.559 --> 00:46:05.300 this relates so well to leaders who are jammed up 824 00:46:05.360 --> 00:46:09.010 and never take time to think. And I'm curious from 825 00:46:09.030 --> 00:46:12.130 your perspective, from Radical Candor, from being a great boss 826 00:46:12.170 --> 00:46:17.389 of how you build in this time to reflect, to learn, 827 00:46:17.570 --> 00:46:19.309 to think so that you can improve. 828 00:46:20.289 --> 00:46:24.130 Yeah, a couple of really important suggestions here because it is, 829 00:46:24.969 --> 00:46:28.889 especially now, we just do not give ourselves enough time, 830 00:46:29.150 --> 00:46:32.760 quiet time to think. We don't, we've always got stuff 831 00:46:32.800 --> 00:46:35.360 coming at us. One of the things that I really 832 00:46:35.559 --> 00:46:40.050 admire that Dick Costolo did is he put two hours 833 00:46:40.170 --> 00:46:42.610 of think time in his calendar, an hour in the morning, 834 00:46:42.670 --> 00:46:45.630 an hour in the afternoon, every day. And he really 835 00:46:45.789 --> 00:46:49.099 didn't let that time get interrupted, no matter what kind 836 00:46:49.139 --> 00:46:52.820 of crises were burning. And believe me, there was always 837 00:46:52.860 --> 00:46:58.190 a crisis burning Twitter. So I think having the discipline 838 00:46:58.349 --> 00:47:02.400 to create space in your big chunks of time, like 839 00:47:02.440 --> 00:47:06.639 an hour. Sometimes when I'm writing a book, I need 840 00:47:07.239 --> 00:47:10.679 three two-hour chunks every day. That's six hours a day. 841 00:47:10.719 --> 00:47:13.630 That's pretty hard to get that much think time. I 842 00:47:14.130 --> 00:47:17.789 think that's really important. When I was coming up with 843 00:47:17.809 --> 00:47:23.150 the Radical Candor framework, I spent several months just debating 844 00:47:23.550 --> 00:47:29.309 which words for each of the axes and which words 845 00:47:29.349 --> 00:47:32.909 for

radical candor at first radical candor was just tough love, 846 00:47:33.030 --> 00:47:36.909 which doesn't, which doesn't sound nearly so good. And I 847 00:47:36.949 --> 00:47:39.239 felt crazy about it at the time, but it was 848 00:47:39.320 --> 00:47:44.940 not wasted time. So sort of like feeling that having 849 00:47:44.980 --> 00:47:48.039 a conversation with someone who works for you about their 850 00:47:48.059 --> 00:47:52.119 divorce or, or their sick kid or whatever, that's not 851 00:47:52.179 --> 00:47:55.309 wasted time. So I think just giving that the time 852 00:47:55.369 --> 00:47:58.590 and space that it deserves to think is really important. 853 00:47:59.030 --> 00:48:01.369 And then there's also just creating a little bit of 854 00:48:01.510 --> 00:48:05.469 slack in your schedule. I think when I have talked 855 00:48:06.090 --> 00:48:10.570 to leaders at every level of organizations and so many 856 00:48:10.650 --> 00:48:14.849 industries and people in different countries, the reason the best 857 00:48:14.949 --> 00:48:19.519 feedback always happens in these two-minute impromptu conversations is And 858 00:48:19.579 --> 00:48:24.219 the most common reason why those conversations don't happen is 859 00:48:24.260 --> 00:48:27.099 that you see something happen in a meeting. You want 860 00:48:27.119 --> 00:48:29.980 to talk to the person, but you're late for your 861 00:48:30.019 --> 00:48:33.510 next meeting. You're hungry and you have to pee. And 862 00:48:33.550 --> 00:48:36.230 now you've got this fourth thing to do, right? All 863 00:48:36.269 --> 00:48:40.329 in the non-two minutes, you're late for your next meeting, right? 864 00:48:40.610 --> 00:48:43.769 Not only do you not have two minutes, you need 865 00:48:43.769 --> 00:48:48.400 10 and you've got negative three. And so figuring out 866 00:48:48.559 --> 00:48:51.869 how either to create the mental space, to be willing 867 00:48:51.929 --> 00:48:54.369 to be late to the next meeting, to be willing 868 00:48:54.510 --> 00:48:56.610 to hold it for a few more minutes before you 869 00:48:56.650 --> 00:49:00.269 go to the bathroom and to prioritize that conversation is 870 00:49:00.949 --> 00:49:03.800 one approach. And that was the approach I took. It 871 00:49:03.840 --> 00:49:06.960 was really sort of a psychological creating the mental space 872 00:49:07.019 --> 00:49:09.750 for it, being willing to be late afterwards. being willing 873 00:49:09.869 --> 00:49:14.119 to delay eating or going to the bathroom because this 874 00:49:14.159 --> 00:49:18.329 conversation was so important. Another thing that I really admire 875 00:49:18.369 --> 00:49:20.659 that a lot of leaders have tried is to create 876 00:49:20.739 --> 00:49:26.619 slack time in the schedule. So 30-minute meetings all are 877 00:49:26.639 --> 00:49:31.389 25-minute meetings and hour-long meetings are all 50-minute meetings. And 878 00:49:31.739 --> 00:49:34.690 that can be very helpful in terms of just creating 879 00:49:34.809 --> 00:49:38.349 a little bit of space and slack in your schedule 880 00:49:38.849 --> 00:49:42.130 to think or talk. Because it's hard and it's important. 881 00:49:42.610 --> 00:49:46.210 Yeah. Kim, I'm sure you get this a lot now, 882 00:49:46.369 --> 00:49:50.010 so I want to ask it still. But when somebody 883 00:49:50.289 --> 00:49:52.190 who's at any point in their career, I don't want 884 00:49:52.250 --> 00:49:53.949 to just say people earlier in their career, but they're 885 00:49:53.969 --> 00:49:58.630 looking to progress. Anyone can define this differently, but they 886 00:49:58.650 --> 00:50:01.269 want to put together a great career. And without going 887 00:50:01.289 --> 00:50:05.659 into semantics as to defining that, And they say, what advice? 888 00:50:05.699 --> 00:50:07.760 You've been able to do this in a number of 889 00:50:07.780 --> 00:50:11.420 different ways. Worked at great companies, worked for yourself, started companies. 890 00:50:11.699 --> 00:50:15.639 You've really done a lot. And they come to you 891 00:50:15.780 --> 00:50:19.110 and I get these types of emails too. So I'm 892 00:50:19.250 --> 00:50:22.070 curious to hear what you'd say. What are the top 893 00:50:22.230 --> 00:50:25.469 pieces of career advice you'd give to someone as they're 894 00:50:25.510 --> 00:50:28.409 looking to build and grow and create a great career? 895 00:50:29.789 --> 00:50:32.420 I think one of the most important things you can 896 00:50:32.480 --> 00:50:36.619 do is... Quiet all the advice that you're going to 897 00:50:36.659 --> 00:50:40.260 get about building a great resume. You don't want to 898 00:50:40.320 --> 00:50:44.179 build a great resume. You want to build a great life. 899 00:50:44.440 --> 00:50:48.530 And so take some time. Find somebody who you can 900 00:50:48.590 --> 00:50:52.769 have the following career conversations with. In an ideal world, 901 00:50:52.969 --> 00:50:55.809 your boss would do this for you. But if your 902 00:50:55.829 --> 00:50:58.750 boss is unwilling, find a mentor or a friend or 903 00:50:58.789 --> 00:51:02.340 a colleague or a parent who Find someone who will 904 00:51:02.380 --> 00:51:06.900 have these conversations with you. This is my co-founder, Russ Laraway, 905 00:51:06.960 --> 00:51:11.719 developed a great career conversation methodology. And the first conversation 906 00:51:11.760 --> 00:51:14.449 you want to have is just, even if the person 907 00:51:14.530 --> 00:51:18.809 knows you well, just taking 45 minutes, maybe an hour, 908 00:51:18.829 --> 00:51:22.429 to sort of recount your life story to the person. 909 00:51:23.250 --> 00:51:26.210 And in an ideal world, if you find a good 910 00:51:26.349 --> 00:51:31.789 conversation partner on this life story conversation The person will 911 00:51:32.110 --> 00:51:34.550 sort of ask you about pivots, but you can do 912 00:51:34.590 --> 00:51:38.929 this for yourself as well. Zero in on those changes

913 00:51:39.010 --> 00:51:42.570 that you made in your life and try to understand 914 00:51:42.840 --> 00:51:48.860 from those changes what really motivates you about work. What 915 00:51:48.980 --> 00:51:54.579 is it that you value at work? And if you 916 00:51:54.659 --> 00:51:59.510 start by just asking yourself what are your values– you're 917 00:51:59.530 --> 00:52:03.090 not going to– it's too abstract of a question. And 918 00:52:03.250 --> 00:52:06.150 you're not going to get the same texture. Whereas I'll 919 00:52:06.210 --> 00:52:08.889 give you an example that I share in the book. 920 00:52:08.929 --> 00:52:13.050 There was a woman I was talking to, and she 921 00:52:13.130 --> 00:52:15.750 told a story about a time when she went to 922 00:52:15.829 --> 00:52:19.510 New Orleans with her family. And her father, who had 923 00:52:19.550 --> 00:52:23.480 maybe had a couple of milk punches into the afternoon– 924 00:52:23.849 --> 00:52:26.469 noticed that she was about 12. She was kind of 925 00:52:26.530 --> 00:52:31.820 glancing into a strip club. And there's a woman on 926 00:52:31.840 --> 00:52:38.179 the pole. And her father turns her face towards the 927 00:52:38.260 --> 00:52:40.840 strip club. And he says, do you see that woman 928 00:52:40.880 --> 00:52:45.010 in there? She makes more money every night than your 929 00:52:45.050 --> 00:52:47.989 mother makes in a year. Her mother was a teacher. 930 00:52:48.849 --> 00:52:53.440 And the woman at this moment... looked at her father 931 00:52:53.519 --> 00:52:56.349 and said, I am going to make more money than you, dad. 932 00:52:56.809 --> 00:52:59.989 So if she had said financial independence or making a 933 00:53:00.010 --> 00:53:02.429 lot of money was a core value, you kind of 934 00:53:02.489 --> 00:53:05.280 wouldn't have felt that sympathetic with her. But when she 935 00:53:05.320 --> 00:53:10.960 told that story, like now you understood her drive to 936 00:53:11.300 --> 00:53:16.059 do very well financially. And so I think by sharing 937 00:53:16.079 --> 00:53:18.659 your life story, you get the texture of what really 938 00:53:18.719 --> 00:53:21.900 matters to you and why. So that's conversation number one. 939 00:53:22.340 --> 00:53:27.050 Conversation number two is think about your dreams. Like imagine 940 00:53:27.090 --> 00:53:30.690 your life at a moment when you've got everything you 941 00:53:30.909 --> 00:53:34.829 ever thought you wanted. And imagine several different scenarios. Almost 942 00:53:35.010 --> 00:53:38.889 nobody knows what they want to be when they grow up. 943 00:53:39.269 --> 00:53:42.070 And those who do, those who have those kinds of vocations, 944 00:53:42.130 --> 00:53:44.090 they confuse the heck out of the rest of us. 945 00:53:44.610 --> 00:53:50.719 It's You know, there's different dreams that we all have. 946 00:53:51.179 --> 00:53:54.619 So give yourself the space and the freedom to dream 947 00:53:54.679 --> 00:53:58.760 those dreams,

to kind of put some color on those dreams. 948 00:53:59.380 --> 00:54:02.280 And then make sure, take a moment to make sure 949 00:54:02.300 --> 00:54:05.730 that the dreams and the values are in alignment. If 950 00:54:05.869 --> 00:54:08.929 one of the things that really motivates you is creating 951 00:54:09.030 --> 00:54:13.269 something from nothing, make sure one of your dreams is entrepreneurial. 952 00:54:14.289 --> 00:54:18.329 Then take some time to come up with a plan. 953 00:54:18.769 --> 00:54:21.800 Imagine what are the skills that you need to develop 954 00:54:22.389 --> 00:54:28.260 to achieve each dream and think about where you are 955 00:54:28.340 --> 00:54:32.750 in the development process of those skills and How can 956 00:54:32.789 --> 00:54:35.210 you begin to develop those skills? Can you change your 957 00:54:35.250 --> 00:54:37.670 current role a little bit so that you learn something 958 00:54:37.690 --> 00:54:41.380 that's taking you a step in the direction of your dreams? 959 00:54:41.519 --> 00:54:44.980 One of my favorite stories that Russ Larraway tells is 960 00:54:45.000 --> 00:54:50.119 he was. managing a woman who was selling DoubleClick ad servers. 961 00:54:50.320 --> 00:54:52.920 And one of her dreams was to own and operate 962 00:54:52.940 --> 00:54:57.920 a spirulina farm. So like you can't imagine that her 963 00:54:58.059 --> 00:55:02.590 job selling DoubleClick ad servers was gonna have anything to 964 00:55:02.610 --> 00:55:06.030 do with owning and operating a spirulina farm. But it 965 00:55:06.090 --> 00:55:09.829 turned out that one of the important skills she needed 966 00:55:09.889 --> 00:55:13.610 to develop to achieve that dream was to learn how 967 00:55:13.630 --> 00:55:16.829 to be a better manager. And in fact, she had Russ, 968 00:55:17.010 --> 00:55:19.550 one of the best managers at Google, teaching her how 969 00:55:19.590 --> 00:55:21.710 to be a good manager. She was also in Sheryl 970 00:55:21.730 --> 00:55:25.389 Sandberg's organization. So all of a sudden, this job, which 971 00:55:25.429 --> 00:55:29.030 had seemed sort of meaningless to her, was very meaningful. 972 00:55:29.159 --> 00:55:31.239 It was taking her a step in the direction of 973 00:55:31.320 --> 00:55:34.699 her dreams. So figure out like how can you adjust 974 00:55:34.719 --> 00:55:37.980 your role so that you're learning things that are taking 975 00:55:38.019 --> 00:55:40.070 you a step in the direction of your dreams. Who 976 00:55:40.110 --> 00:55:42.289 are the people you can meet and talk to who 977 00:55:42.329 --> 00:55:44.449 are going to help you take a step in the 978 00:55:44.489 --> 00:55:48.070 direction of your dreams? What are the things you can learn, 979 00:55:48.110 --> 00:55:50.409 the books you can read, the classes you can attend 980 00:55:50.829 --> 00:55:53.289 that are going to help build those skills? And I 981 00:55:53.349 --> 00:55:57.530 think thinking more broadly about your career and avoiding the 982 00:55:58.159 --> 00:56:03.300 kind of narrow promotion obsession, resume obsession is the best 983 00:56:03.340 --> 00:56:05.679 thing you can do to build a career that's going 984 00:56:05.699 --> 00:56:08.159 to really get you where you want to go in life. 985 00:56:08.679 --> 00:56:10.739 Yeah, you don't have to go about checking boxes. 986 00:56:11.500 --> 00:56:11.800 No. 987 00:56:12.000 --> 00:56:14.139 Or if you're going to check them, create them for 988 00:56:14.280 --> 00:56:17.750 a good, meaningful reason. And when you oftentimes have heard 989 00:56:17.829 --> 00:56:19.469 someone say, well, I took that job because I thought 990 00:56:19.489 --> 00:56:22.130 I would look really good on my resume. Some of 991 00:56:22.150 --> 00:56:25.349 their priorities are backwards. And maybe they're listening now. 992 00:56:25.369 --> 00:56:27.880 They've done that. And maybe I'm sure people have. 993 00:56:28.719 --> 00:56:29.420 We've all done it. 994 00:56:29.500 --> 00:56:29.889 I get it. 995 00:56:29.940 --> 00:56:30.900 We've all made those mistakes. 996 00:56:30.920 --> 00:56:31.659 Yeah, we've all made it. 997 00:56:31.719 --> 00:56:33.619 And so it's just time to take a step back 998 00:56:33.679 --> 00:56:35.460 and think and maybe watch the birds a little bit. 999 00:56:35.989 --> 00:56:39.610 As Wilbur and Orville did. So Kim, I love this talk. 1000 00:56:39.849 --> 00:56:41.030 We're going to have to do it again because I 1001 00:56:41.070 --> 00:56:45.420 have tons more notes, but this was really, I just 1002 00:56:45.460 --> 00:56:49.300 appreciate the energy and intellect you bring to the conversation. 1003 00:56:49.340 --> 00:56:51.219 And I want to thank you for putting this book out, 1004 00:56:51.610 --> 00:56:53.869 making us aware of radical candor. I think this could, 1005 00:56:54.369 --> 00:56:56.630 It already has changed many people's. 1006 00:56:56.369 --> 00:56:58.750 Lives all over the world, and I want to acknowledge that. 1007 00:56:58.789 --> 00:57:00.650 And I appreciate you doing that. 1008 00:57:00.989 --> 00:57:01.769 One more question, though. 1009 00:57:01.789 --> 00:57:05.230 When you saw somebody with a podcast with the title 1010 00:57:05.329 --> 00:57:10.570 of Learning Leader in the email, what was the first 1011 00:57:10.650 --> 00:57:12.969 thought that came to mind when you saw that phrase, 1012 00:57:13.070 --> 00:57:14.030 Learning Leader? 1013 00:57:15.349 --> 00:57:18.590 It is so important for leaders to be learners and 1014 00:57:18.630 --> 00:57:21.969 not knowers. So I think it says a lot. The 1015 00:57:22.010 --> 00:57:26.369 learning leader is the leader who listens, who doesn't try 1016 00:57:26.429 --> 00:57:28.989 to tell people what to do. So I love the title, 1017 00:57:29.369 --> 00:57:30.030 Learning Leader. 1018 00:57:30.929 --> 00:57:32.239 Thank you. I appreciate that. 1019 00:57:32.800 --> 00:57:36.900 And I'm a firm believer in that aspect of you've 1020

00:57:36.940 --> 00:57:39.480 never arrived, you're always becoming. And I think that's a 1021 00:57:40.780 --> 00:57:43.420 Big aspect of being a learning leader. And I appreciate 1022 00:57:43.440 --> 00:57:45.519 you sharing. Where would you send my listeners to learn 1023 00:57:45.559 --> 00:57:46.480 more about you online? 1024 00:57:47.659 --> 00:57:51.019 Online, you can go to RadicalCandor.com or you can listen 1025 00:57:51.079 --> 00:57:55.010 to the Radical Candor podcast, which is about how not 1026 00:57:55.050 --> 00:57:57.349 to hate the boss you have or be the boss 1027 00:57:57.389 --> 00:57:57.769 you hate. 1028 00:57:59.130 --> 00:58:00.949 I love it. Well, Kim, thanks so much. 1029 00:58:00.989 --> 00:58:03.170 Again, I meant it when I say I want to 1030 00:58:03.210 --> 00:58:06.030 continue our dialogue as we both progress because I love 1031 00:58:06.090 --> 00:58:09.210 what you're doing and I want to continue us talking. 1032 00:58:09.940 --> 00:58:12.389 I really look forward to it. It's a fun conversation. 1033 00:58:12.610 --> 00:58:13.289 Awesome. Thanks, Kim. 1034 00:58:13.969 --> 00:58:15.530 Okay. Thank you. Bye-bye. 1035 00:58:17.530 --> 00:58:19.989 This episode of The Learning Leader Show is over, but 1036 00:58:20.010 --> 00:58:22.179 we have plenty more to keep you locked in until 1037 00:58:22.239 --> 00:58:26.739 next time. Head over to learningleadershow.com for more information and 1038 00:58:26.780 --> 00:58:31.360 to request your favorite entrepreneur, CEO, world-class athlete, or anyone 1039 00:58:31.400 --> 00:58:34.059 else that inspires you. You can also talk to Ryan 1040 00:58:34.079 --> 00:58:37.380 directly by reaching out to him on Twitter at RyanHawk12. 1041 00:58:37.940 --> 00:58:39.980 Thanks again, and we'll see you next time on The 1042 00:58:40.039 --> 00:58:40.889 Learning Leader Show. 1043 00:58:48.010 --> 00:58:50.750 This episode is brought to you by my friends at 1044 00:58:50.849 --> 00:58:55.219 Callaway Golf. Callaway's business and marketing approach has turned heads 1045 00:58:55.280 --> 00:58:57.519 over the last several years, helping the company make a 1046 00:58:57.559 --> 00:59:00.860 dramatic turnaround from losing millions of dollars per year to 1047 00:59:00.900 --> 00:59:04.769 being a leader in the industry. Products like the GBB 1048 00:59:04.969 --> 00:59:09.530 Epic Driver, Steelhead XR Irons, and Callaway's Chrome Soft are 1049 00:59:10.260 --> 00:59:14.219 Ball are aimed at avid golfers looking for premium performance. 1050 00:59:14.239 --> 00:59:17.139 And the coolest part about this partnership is we're doing 1051 00:59:17.159 --> 00:59:21.159 a giveaway. Yes, we're giving away the number one selling 1052 00:59:21.199 --> 00:59:25.929 driver of 2017, the GBB Epic Driver. All you have 1053 00:59:25.969 --> 00:59:30.550 to do is put your favorite leadership quote pulled from 1054 00:59:30.590 --> 00:59:35.409 an episode of The Learning Leader Show on Twitter or Instagram. 1055 00:59:35.429 --> 00:59:38.530 So pull your favorite leadership quote that any of the 1056 00:59:38.610 --> 00:59:42.159 greatest leadership minds over the last three years from The 1057 00:59:42.199 --> 00:59:45.420 Learning Leader Show has said. Quote them on Twitter or 1058 00:59:45.500 --> 00:59:51.800 Instagram and tag my name, at RyanHawk12, at RyanHawk12 on 1059 00:59:51.900 --> 00:59:56.380 Twitter or Instagram. My team will gather all of the 1060 00:59:56.440 --> 00:59:58.840 quotes and you can enter as many times you'd like. 1061 00:59:58.860 --> 01:00:00.780 The more times that you enter, the better chance you 1062 01:00:00.800 --> 01:00:03.840 have of winning. And over the course of a few months, 1063 01:00:04.000 --> 01:00:06.039 we will gather them all and then we will draw 1064 01:00:06.059 --> 01:00:08.530 a random winner. And my friends at Callaway will send 1065 01:00:08.550 --> 01:00:10.929 you the GBB Epic Driver. 1066 01:00:10.989 --> 01:00:12.010 Thank you so much. 1067 01:00:12.050 --> 01:00:15.250 I look forward to seeing all of your great responses 1068 01:00:15.369 --> 01:00:18.349 on Twitter and Instagram at RyanHawk12. And thank you to 1069 01:00:18.389 --> 01:00:19.969 my friends at Callaway Golf. 1070 01:00:23.780 --> 01:00:24.289 Are you still there? 1071 01:00:24.969 --> 01:00:25.730 Yep, still here. 1072 01:00:26.510 --> 01:00:31.630 Thank you so much. That was so good. I'm really 1073 01:00:31.650 --> 01:00:34.159 appreciative of you just being able to dive deep, tell 1074 01:00:34.280 --> 01:00:37.159 great stories. As I mentioned before, I think the story 1075 01:00:37.260 --> 01:00:41.079 aspect is huge when it comes to speeches, to keynotes. 1076 01:00:41.460 --> 01:00:44.940 And I noticed that you never use um or fillers. 1077 01:00:45.000 --> 01:00:47.840 So that speaking coach must have seriously had a big 1078 01:00:47.900 --> 01:00:48.550 impact on you. 1079 01:00:48.860 --> 01:00:51.489 SMP communications had a really big impact. I do. 1080 01:00:51.530 --> 01:00:53.289 How did they do it? What did they do? What's 1081 01:00:53.329 --> 01:00:54.690 a quick thing they did? I should have put this 1082 01:00:54.710 --> 01:00:56.230 in the episode, but what's a quick thing they did? 1083 01:00:56.849 --> 01:00:59.769 You know, the key thing that they taught me was 1084 01:00:59.809 --> 01:01:02.840 that the reason why I say um is that I'm 1085 01:01:02.980 --> 01:01:04.199 uncomfortable with silence. 1086 01:01:05.099 --> 01:01:06.960 Ah, okay. Or you're not prepared. 1087 01:01:07.019 --> 01:01:09.519 Some coaches have told me that, like, If you're not 1088 01:01:09.559 --> 01:01:13.199 fully prepared, you might say like or um or you know. 1089 01:01:13.260 --> 01:01:16.280 And I do all those things, unfortunately. But that's what 1090 01:01:16.380 --> 01:01:17.900 people have shared with me. 1091 01:01:18.059 --> 01:01:18.579 What do you think? 1092 01:01:19.320 --> 01:01:24.619 I think

that can happen. But I don't think that usually, 1093 01:01:24.800 --> 01:01:28.760 even if you are prepared, you'll often say um. At 1094 01:01:28.800 --> 01:01:32.360 least I did. Even if I was incredibly well prepared, 1095 01:01:32.539 --> 01:01:38.699 I would say um. And the reason was that Sometimes 1096 01:01:38.780 --> 01:01:42.840 there is a natural silence. Even when you're prepared, sometimes 1097 01:01:42.860 --> 01:01:45.880 you need to just gather your thoughts. Or sometimes you 1098 01:01:45.920 --> 01:01:49.619 need to wait for a reaction. And if you're not 1099 01:01:49.940 --> 01:01:54.500 comfortable with silence, you don't give yourself the space to 1100 01:01:54.639 --> 01:01:59.679 either collect your thoughts or wait for an audience's reaction. 1101 01:01:59.760 --> 01:02:02.699 It's sort of like it's a form of not listening 1102 01:02:03.019 --> 01:02:05.719 to the audience as you're talking, if you say, um. 1103 01:02:06.480 --> 01:02:07.300 Yeah, it makes sense. 1104 01:02:08.090 --> 01:02:10.960 Well, you do it really well and tell the story. 1105 01:02:11.019 --> 01:02:12.980 And obviously, it probably is a combination of all the 1106 01:02:13.039 --> 01:02:15.820 reps you get speaking and podcasting and everything like that 1107 01:02:15.860 --> 01:02:16.619 and the interviews you do. 1108 01:02:16.659 --> 01:02:19.920 But I appreciate it. I really do. I'll be sure. 1109 01:02:20.099 --> 01:02:23.619 Is there anything that we missed or anything that we 1110 01:02:23.639 --> 01:02:25.460 did that you didn't like or what did you think? 1111 01:02:26.139 --> 01:02:28.840 No, I felt really good about the conversation. I felt 1112 01:02:28.889 --> 01:02:31.849 like I rambled a little bit a couple of times. 1113 01:02:31.969 --> 01:02:32.329 It was good. 1114 01:02:32.510 --> 01:02:34.820 That's why podcasts are great because you can You can 1115 01:02:34.860 --> 01:02:36.300 go deep on topics and I love this. 1116 01:02:36.320 --> 01:02:39.400 So I would be honest with you. I promise you're 1117 01:02:39.420 --> 01:02:41.579 the one person I can't lie to. I can't lie 1118 01:02:41.599 --> 01:02:43.239 to anybody, but I can't be too nice. 1119 01:02:43.260 --> 01:02:46.710 I have to be candid with you, but no, I'll 1120 01:02:46.750 --> 01:02:49.769 be sure when we get this one put together, slap 1121 01:02:49.889 --> 01:02:51.809 on an intro and outro, I'll be sure to let 1122 01:02:52.210 --> 01:02:54.269 you and your team know and send you a note 1123 01:02:54.329 --> 01:02:56.030 when it goes live. 1124 01:02:57.849 --> 01:03:00.199 We'll give it some social media love. And if you, 1125 01:03:00.639 --> 01:03:03.079 if you can put a link to the podcast, uh 1126 01:03:03.280 --> 01:03:05.219 book on amazon that would be awesome. 1127 01:03:05.039 --> 01:03:07.639 Oh yeah i have show notes at learningleader.com so i'll 1128 01:03:07.659 --> 01:03:09.280 make sure that all the show notes are there as 1129 01:03:09.340 --> 01:03:12.280 well as within apple podcast stitcher all that stuff that 1130 01:03:12.480 --> 01:03:14.260 uh it is right in there a link to to 1131 01:03:14.300 --> 01:03:16.659 get to get the book and i've already been recommending 1132 01:03:16.719 --> 01:03:19.590 it been a book of my mindful monday emails i 1133 01:03:19.610 --> 01:03:22.710 send out to my my community so i i'm a 1134 01:03:22.750 --> 01:03:24.650 big big fan kim so it was cool for me 1135 01:03:24.690 --> 01:03:25.829 to be able to have this one with you. 1136 01:03:26.349 --> 01:03:29.590 Well thanks so much really really enjoyed the conversation. 1137 01:03:29.269 --> 01:03:31.210 Awesome all right thanks kim okay 1138 01:03:31.230 --> 01:03:32.840 Take care okay bye Bye-bye.