התמלול המלא של The CEO Using AI to Predict Customer Churn: Sabby Gill

00:03:28.648 I'm going to ask you the same question I pretty much ask everyone, which is to kick us off. 81 00:03:28.688 --> 00:03:29.669 What's one thing... 82 00:03:30.249 --> 00:03:33.453 that you know about leadership today that you didn't know five years ago? 83 00:03:34.434 --> 00:03:38.759 I think probably the biggest thing is the speed at which technology is moving. 84 00:03:39.860 --> 00:03:43.324 I think leadership now is very different from where it was five years ago. 85 00:03:43.545 --> 00:03:49.331 If you're not sort of taking into account the tools that are available to you to help 86 00:03:51.013 --> 00:03:52.874 lead and manage an organization. 87 00:03:54.455 --> 00:03:59.117 Because there's so much more from a, you know, one of the biggest challenges you have from a leadership perspective is time. 88 00:04:00.157 --> 00:04:01.618 It's the one thing you never get back, right? 89 00:04:01.678 --> 00:04:05.420 Once it's spent, but you always wish you had and crave more of it. 90 00:04:06.040 --> 00:04:16.191 So I think now using all the technology and the tools around it that allows you to be able to do probably all of the things that you don't necessarily like doing, right? 91 00:04:16.211 --> 00:04:22.017 Just speed up your overall element of productivity, which allows you to spend more time with your team. 92 00:04:22.417 --> 00:04:26.662 For me, that's probably the most important thing that I probably crave more of is just... 93 00:04:27.302 --> 00:04:46.288 how much more can I spend with customers how much more time can I spend with my employees and you know it's the technology tools and everything else that's probably allowed me to do that five years ago I'd probably have spent more time doing admin type tasks than what I'm doing today and that's probably the biggest thing I've learned yeah 94 00:04:47.101 --> 00:04:49.282 And we will get some sirens as we go through. 95 00:04:49.402 --> 00:04:54.703 Like regular listeners and viewers to the podcast will know that we get sirens coming past here. 96 00:04:55.323 --> 00:04:58.664 I think that's a really interesting insight. 97 00:04:59.024 --> 00:05:02.525 A question directly for you, and then maybe we'll talk about the rest of the organization. 98 00:05:03.045 --> 00:05:08.707 So the CEO of Dext, the technology that enables us to be more productive. 99 00:05:09.707 --> 00:05:22.918 I think that with the leaders that I observe applying that technology into the flow of their working patterns, I think there's a risk that we can get on the hamster wheel and go, right, well, this can automate this bit for me. 100 00:05:23.678 --> 00:05:29.183 And all of a sudden, my time that I've brought back to do all those great things has gone. 101 00:05:30.500 --> 00:05:32.561 because I'm moving on to the next thing. 102 00:05:32.721 --> 00:05:38.424 Because Claude, for example, insert other LLM, has sped that up. 103 00:05:39.264 --> 00:05:41.686 I've scheduled tasks for me that are coming back to me. 104 00:05:41.806 --> 00:05:45.908 So that can potentially make my leadership less human. 105 00:05:46.708 --> 00:05:48.350 How are you protecting that time for you? 106 00:05:48.490 --> 00:05:59.281 Yeah, look, I think it really depends on whether you're asking those LLMs to do everything or are you still using it to give it the judgment that it requires? 107 00:05:59.922 --> 00:06:01.483 Because it's so easy to be able to. 108 00:06:01.504 --> 00:06:02.645 I'll give you a perfect example. 109 00:06:03.725 --> 00:06:08.387 I send out a weekly sales bulletin to my entire team every Monday morning. 110 00:06:09.207 --> 00:06:17.930 And the thing I do is every Thursday, I get it to go look at all of my calendar, look at all my emails, look at all my Slack channels, look at everything, look at all the... 111 00:06:18.630 --> 00:06:23.471 recent client wins and produce me a summary with 300 words, right? 112 00:06:23.511 --> 00:06:26.711 And I try and keep it as short and succinct as possible. 113 00:06:27.271 --> 00:06:30.532 And then that's almost like a V1. 114 00:06:31.152 --> 00:06:38.873 From there, I am then using that as the basis for my conversation and my edits and everything else. 115 00:06:39.073 --> 00:06:46.635 If I'm not doing that bit, the first bit would have taken me, you know, a couple of hours just to try and go through and troll through all of that type of stuff. 116 00:06:48.655 --> 00:07:09.217 leadership personal judgment that you've got to put on top of it and I think there's so many people nowadays that just automatically take the end result and then just automatically have it not only scheduled but emailed and done all you know potentially sent all of that information out and I think that's absolutely the risk that you've highlighted that you've got to give it some personal judgment. 117 00:07:09.664 --> 00:07:09.844 Yeah. 118 00:07:10.384 --> 00:07:11.765 And I think that, yeah, completely. 119 00:07:11.785 --> 00:07:20.530 So that, that personal judgment, you've allowed it to do, like, it's almost like a bouncy intern, like go off and do all of that sort of stuff. 120 00:07:20.630 --> 00:07:26.353 But you need that, that experience and that discernment of like, is this actually accurate? 121 00:07:26.414 --> 00:07:27.254 Correct. 122 00:07:27.474 --> 00:07:29.895 And does this fit with my decision making process? 123 00:07:29.916 --> 00:07:30.756 Because we all know, like. 124 00:07:30.836 --> 00:07:32.678 people, it will hallucinate, right? 125 00:07:33.078 --> 00:07:34.620 Nothing will ever be perfect. 126 00:07:35.581 --> 00:07:46.593 And I probably then spend probably another five, 10 minutes just asking it questions and saying, well, actually, there's one thing you forgot, or actually, I'd like you to expand a little bit more in this particular area. 127 00:07:46.693 --> 00:07:47.734 And it will go off and do that. 128 00:07:47.914 --> 00:07:51.198 And I've given it access through, you know, to all of

my... 129 00:07:51.818 --> 00:08:10.630 different tools and you know that I already use so from that perspective I'd probably save myself a good two or three hours right a week the important thing is what am I doing with those two or three hours right so I consciously try and work out how much time have I saved by using these tools because 130 00:08:11.410 --> 00:08:15.051 By doing that, it's only then that I can justify the cost of those tools. 131 00:08:15.191 --> 00:08:22.054 As a CEO, I've got to be able to justify the spend that we have on tokens and whatever else you want to call it. 132 00:08:22.534 --> 00:08:26.716 But it's also you then become a really good example for the rest of the management team and everybody else. 133 00:08:26.736 --> 00:08:33.238 So sort of saying, well, if I can save this much time for me personally, even if you saved half of that, 134 00:08:33.837 --> 00:08:35.198 It's still a productivity game. 135 00:08:36.039 --> 00:08:37.580 And what are you doing with that time? 136 00:08:37.660 --> 00:08:44.845 And that's the bit I really want people to think about, right, is what can you do differently now that you've got back that time? 137 00:08:45.145 --> 00:08:50.709 And obviously for the customer-facing go-to-market organization, you're spending more time with customers, right? 138 00:08:50.869 --> 00:08:57.053 Ultimately, if you don't do that, then it's like, well, why are we doing it? 139 00:08:57.333 --> 00:08:59.796 Yeah, yeah, yeah, completely agree. 140 00:09:00.276 --> 00:09:14.991 And I think that role modelling, new ways of working, experimenting, I think is really valuable because actually you get to experience the wins, the risks, the opportunities, etc. 141 00:09:15.091 --> 00:09:19.155 And can share that with your management team that can cascade down across the organisation. 142 00:09:19.876 --> 00:09:20.496 How is that... 143 00:09:21.537 --> 00:09:30.959 How do you think that is changing for the better or for different the way that leadership is done at Dext? 144 00:09:31.179 --> 00:09:32.179 How do you see that changing? 145 00:09:32.679 --> 00:09:33.719 So this one's a bit different. 146 00:09:34.019 --> 00:09:37.580 I'm actually part of the founding team behind a new exclusive community. 147 00:09:37.920 --> 00:09:39.180 It's called My Spare Seat. 148 00:09:39.680 --> 00:09:44.861 And basically it's a private auction community for last minute luxury experiences. 149 00:09:45.241 --> 00:09:47.622 Michelin restaurant tables that have just opened up 150 00:09:48.222 --> 00:09:59.164 hospitality at big sporting events, Wimbledon, F1, luxury hotel stays, the kind of things that become available at the last minute because someone just can't use it anymore. 151 00:09:59.444 --> 00:10:08.106 Instead of those things going to waste, it gets posted to the group, members bid on it, highest bid wins, and someone actually gets to make use of that experience. 152 00:10:08.426 --> 00:10:14.967 It's invitation only, deliberately kept small, trusted members, exclusive opportunities, and no noise. 153 00:10:15.367 --> 00:10:16.608 If that sounds like your world, 154 00:10:18.411 --> 00:10:20.269 There's always a spare seat with your name on it. 155 00:10:25.172 --> 00:10:38.056 Look, I think what's materially changed for us is, you know, I use it for my own personal productivity, but we're also using it for getting better leading indicators, right, for a business. 156 00:10:38.276 --> 00:10:40.677 So, again, give you another example. 157 00:10:41.277 --> 00:10:48.599 One of the things that we always, one of the most difficult things is forecasting, right, a business in general. 158 00:10:49.620 --> 00:10:53.501 But giving you more data, data insights, looking at... 159 00:10:55.108 --> 00:11:05.873 previous win rates, close rates, making judgment, taking away the anomalies, really trying to also take other indicators that you wouldn't normally use, right? 160 00:11:05.893 --> 00:11:08.855 Most people use a Salesforce or a CRM or anything like that. 161 00:11:09.315 --> 00:11:14.698 And they very much rely on a salesperson going in and putting a, you know, is this deal in commit? 162 00:11:14.778 --> 00:11:15.658 Is it in a forecast? 163 00:11:15.698 --> 00:11:17.379 Is it that sort of stuff? 164 00:11:17.739 --> 00:11:21.501 But we all know certain behaviors from salespeople 165 00:11:23.278 --> 00:11:24.539 are very different, right? 166 00:11:24.619 --> 00:11:29.063 I've got salespeople who will literally put stuff in at the very last minute, right? 167 00:11:29.083 --> 00:11:32.206 We've got other individuals who will take a very long time. 168 00:11:33.767 --> 00:11:41.273 They'll put it in a certain category of forecast and then all of a sudden, you know when it's got that much probability, it's more than likely going to close. 169 00:11:41.293 --> 00:11:42.995 You know people's historical win rates, 170 00:11:43.655 --> 00:11:51.502 So I can use all the tools available to be able to say, go and look at my historical trends of certain individuals and people. 171 00:11:52.062 --> 00:11:53.483 Look at their opening pipeline. 172 00:11:53.523 --> 00:11:58.968 Look at how they've been performing and give me a judgment of where you think they're going to end up. 173 00:11:59.428 --> 00:12:06.311 And I can use that to be able to then have a conversation with somebody to be able to turn around and say, actually, I think you're under calling that number. 174 00:12:06.491 --> 00:12:12.054 Actually, you're over calling that number because historical data is now telling me and I've got data to prove it. 175 00:12:12.974 --> 00:12:16.796 Whereas I think most managers end up running pretty blind. 176 00:12:17.036 --> 00:12:19.317 They'll ask their rep, what do you think you're going to end up? 177 00:12:20.107 --> 00:12:25.589 At the end of it, they end up with something completely different and then they're constantly backtracking on, well, what went wrong? 178

00:12:25.989 --> 00:12:26.649 Yeah. 179 00:12:26.910 --> 00:12:30.091 So we do it from every aspect. 180 00:12:30.111 --> 00:12:33.572 So I use it from a go-to-market perspective, I use it from a forecasting perspective. 181 00:12:34.052 --> 00:12:43.696 We use it to try and, you know, one of the big things that people worry about now is, you know, it's about customer acquisition and customer retention. 182 00:12:44.316 --> 00:12:49.098 How do I know who's the next customer I'm most likely to lose? 183 00:12:50.719 --> 00:13:08.511 And we've now built tools using AI that gives you predictions that says, based on the behavior of this particular customer, based on how many times they've logged in, based on how many invoices they've processed, based on how much customers have allowed and signed up to the system. 184 00:13:09.051 --> 00:13:16.377 If all of a sudden you start seeing those things drop off, by the time you get to the next renewal, you can almost turn around and say, well, actually... 185 00:13:17.217 --> 00:13:19.939 90 days before that, you knew that this was going to happen. 186 00:13:20.439 --> 00:13:34.308 So I can give insights now to all of my team that says, actually, I can give you indicators 120 days in advance, 90 days before the renewal when they get their first notice that will basically tell you who is the next most likely person to churn. 187 00:13:34.589 --> 00:13:36.370 Once they've churned, and maybe there's... 188 00:13:37.567 --> 00:13:40.430 Accounts that all of a sudden churn for no exact reason. 189 00:13:40.810 --> 00:13:41.891 You learn from that. 190 00:13:42.431 --> 00:13:43.672 Go back, change the model. 191 00:13:44.513 --> 00:13:45.494 Change your prediction model. 192 00:13:45.774 --> 00:13:46.215 Come back. 193 00:13:47.376 --> 00:13:50.979 So it's tools like that that a year ago, six months ago, we didn't have. 194 00:13:51.179 --> 00:13:52.640 Now all of a sudden we've got all of these. 195 00:13:53.421 --> 00:13:56.744 That makes a massive difference from the sales rep productivity. 196 00:13:57.124 --> 00:13:59.987 But the biggest change we've seen is the customer. 197 00:14:00.527 --> 00:14:08.451 Because now if you're my customer and I come to you and I turn around to you and say, hey, let me tell you exactly what your business looks like with Dext. 198 00:14:09.012 --> 00:14:17.016 Show you all your usage, show your productivity, show you all the two or three changes we could quickly make to make you more productive. 199 00:14:17.576 --> 00:14:23.660 That will drive revenue for you with your customers and have a better customer relationship for you with Dext. 200 00:14:24.448 --> 00:14:25.749 makes a material difference. 201 00:14:26.130 --> 00:14:33.576 Before, my team probably would have been spending a day preparing for every quarterly business review or monthly business review. 202 00:14:33.956 --> 00:14:43.905 Now it's a tap of a button, they can get the report, it gives them all the analysis,

tells them almost the script to use with their customer. 203 00:14:44.465 --> 00:14:51.932 So that element that we saved previously, I'm saving you even more, but I'm also giving you all the tools, but it's all data-based. 204 00:14:53.013 --> 00:14:55.476 that will give you all of the insights that you really need. 205 00:14:55.797 --> 00:15:07.012 Yeah, and that enables those reps, those account managers, to be more human because they're adding more value in terms of the data they can tell their customer about the business relationship they have. 206 00:15:07.032 --> 00:15:07.212 Correct. 207 00:15:07.853 --> 00:15:13.097 and can identify opportunities where they can save the money, add value, et cetera, whatever that might be. 208 00:15:13.658 --> 00:15:22.965 And I think that the transparency piece, the access to real-time data and processing, I think is really important. 209 00:15:22.985 --> 00:15:26.268 There's two bits that you've just brought up, which I'm going to underline. 210 00:15:26.288 --> 00:15:27.048 The first one is, 211 00:15:28.309 --> 00:15:32.251 My last full-time role was Head of People and Performance for a sales organisation. 212 00:15:32.791 --> 00:15:41.576 And I've sat in those forecasting meetings pre-AI proliferation, where you've got three different types of people that are forecasting. 213 00:15:41.676 --> 00:15:46.838 One is going to dramatically over-predict and be very optimistic. 214 00:15:47.218 --> 00:15:49.900 One is going to sandbag because they want to surprise you with some good news. 215 00:15:50.300 --> 00:15:54.102 And then you've got someone in the middle who's playing by the rules you want them to. 216 00:15:54.902 --> 00:16:00.564 And I've been in those Friday morning meetings where we had every Friday morning people forecasting, etc. 217 00:16:01.164 --> 00:16:04.866 And you knew who was really below, above or whatever. 218 00:16:05.486 --> 00:16:13.829 And I just remember sitting next to our CFO and he would write down a different number to what the person had forecast based on his gut or past experience. 219 00:16:13.869 --> 00:16:23.232 And what you've just described there is modeling that out to remove the gut and basically look at the behavioral intelligence of what we can see within the business. 220 00:16:23.552 --> 00:16:35.289 And the great thing about that is that if you imagine the history that you build up on that individual and the way that they behave, all three of those different scenarios. 221 00:16:35.309 --> 00:16:36.631 So you know there's somebody sandbagging. 222 00:16:37.480 --> 00:16:41.604 over time, you'll know how much they're sandbagging, right? 223 00:16:41.664 --> 00:16:43.827 And what particular deals and what particular customers. 224 00:16:43.847 --> 00:16:53.777 And there's going to be certain data points that will give you some indication that sort of says, well, actually, if you ever see this, this and this, the chances are they're going to sandbag that particular

deal. 225 00:16:53.877 --> 00:16:58.562 However, if you sort of see this variant on it, then the chances are we're more than likely going to lose it. 226 00:16:59.222 --> 00:17:00.424 But what it gives you is... 227 00:17:01.164 --> 00:17:10.392 is those deals that get highlighted to me that sort of say, well, Sammy, this guy is basically telling you or this gal is telling you that they're going to win this deal. 228 00:17:10.892 --> 00:17:17.478 Here are the four data points and questions to ask them about those deals because the model is basically coming up with something slightly different. 229 00:17:17.538 --> 00:17:20.020 So it's also helping people 230 00:17:20.672 --> 00:17:26.997 the sales manager, right, with the tools and the insights that they would never have had, or they would have had to go looking for it. 231 00:17:27.517 --> 00:17:31.140 Whereas that's the time that we're really trying to save individuals and people. 232 00:17:31.681 --> 00:17:37.926 And we talk, you know, everything I've talked about is from an employee from a sales perspective. 233 00:17:38.527 --> 00:17:40.608 But I think the biggest piece for me is the customer. 234 00:17:40.628 --> 00:17:41.249 Yeah. 235 00:17:41.349 --> 00:17:41.589 right? 236 00:17:41.689 --> 00:17:53.559 Because we always worry about, well, how do I, you know, especially from a sales perspective, how do I make myself, our sales even bigger and, you know, try and close more and win rates and that sort of stuff. 237 00:17:53.959 --> 00:17:55.621 But you have to look at it from a customer's perspective. 238 00:17:55.641 --> 00:17:55.661 A 239 00:17:57.302 --> 00:18:01.163 cycle is completely different to a sales cycle. 240 00:18:02.004 --> 00:18:03.144 And how do you map the two? 241 00:18:03.484 --> 00:18:13.648 So for us, having those constant conversations, discussions, like we'll put closed plans together, but the first thing we'll do is we'll share it with the customer and turn around and say, Mr. 242 00:18:13.668 --> 00:18:16.949 Customer, here's where I think we are in the sales cycle. 243 00:18:17.069 --> 00:18:17.589 Do you agree? 244 00:18:18.589 --> 00:18:25.652 And once you've got that agreement, then you can actually then have a better prediction of what you're doing. 245 00:18:26.193 --> 00:18:29.666 And I think a lot of people tend to be inwardly focused. 246 00:18:30.287 --> 00:18:35.329 Rather than worrying about, well, what does this look like from a customer perspective? 247 00:18:35.349 --> 00:18:46.455 And that's something that we play a big part in ensuring that anything that we do has some element of buy-in from a customer, customer cycle, process perspective as well. 248 00:18:46.735 --> 00:18:46.935 Yeah. 249 00:18:47.815 --> 00:18:49.516 Yeah, it makes complete sense. 250 00:18:49.536 --> 00:18:53.158 And like, without plugging the podcast, like, it's the human in the loop, isn't it? 251 00:18:53.258 --> 00:18:56.520 Like, we're trying to create systems and processes

that allow... 252 00:18:57.715 --> 00:19:09.903 us as humans and the people in our business have richer human contact, but also not forget a lot of the stuff that can get forgotten by automating that. 253 00:19:09.963 --> 00:19:19.069 There was one bit you talked about with retention, which reminded me of an episode earlier this year. 254 00:19:19.129 --> 00:19:24.432 We had the CEO of Briazon, who are a global expansion business, Andrew Fahey, 255 00:19:25.012 --> 00:19:28.753 And he just built and they just built it. 256 00:19:28.773 --> 00:19:31.334 And I was like, are you sure you want to share this on the pocket? 257 00:19:31.354 --> 00:19:33.155 He was like, no, no, I'm really we're really excited about it. 258 00:19:33.175 --> 00:19:40.757 I want to share it with people, which was they'd looked at, you know, thinking about customer attention and doing customer reviews, etc. 259 00:19:41.258 --> 00:19:45.339 And they'd mapped out a lot of different metrics and done a lot of modeling and trialed some stuff. 260 00:19:46.039 --> 00:19:54.162 And one of the biggest things they saw that they included in their model then was how quickly people pay their invoices. 261 00:19:55.088 --> 00:20:01.790 was an interesting trigger for them within their business of, of like customer loyalty as part of that. 262 00:20:01.810 --> 00:20:04.390 And it was just really interesting to see how he, he built that up. 263 00:20:04.450 --> 00:20:08.551 So yeah, completely resonate, resonate with that as well. 264 00:20:09.391 --> 00:20:15.833 I feel like we could carry on, on, on AI and, and, and how it's helping leaders, but I'd love to run the decision sprint with you. 265 00:20:16.393 --> 00:20:16.833 Okay. 266 00:20:17.033 --> 00:20:17.593 You ready for this? 267 00:20:17.733 --> 00:20:18.334 I am indeed. 268 00:20:18.374 --> 00:20:18.554 Yeah. 269 00:20:18.574 --> 00:20:18.734 Cool. 270 00:20:18.874 --> 00:20:19.254 Okay. 271 00:20:19.274 --> 00:20:22.995 So quick introduction for, for all of our listeners and viewers. 272 00:20:23.695 --> 00:20:23.815 Um, 273 00:20:24.755 --> 00:20:31.062 We have put some of the behavioral intelligence engine that runs Ethereo into the podcast. 274 00:20:31.582 --> 00:20:38.990 So Sabby's got an opportunity now to choose one of five cards. 275 00:20:39.070 --> 00:20:41.552 They don't all say the same thing for everyone. 276 00:20:41.893 --> 00:20:42.634 One of five cards. 277 00:20:42.734 --> 00:20:46.437 Each of the cards has a different decision sprint kind of challenge on it. 278 00:20:47.038 --> 00:20:51.962 You get to read the card to yourself and then you can decide whether you want that card or not. 279 00:20:52.002 --> 00:20:52.783 You can pass once. 280 00:20:54.064 --> 00:20:56.706 Once you've once you've locked in the card, you're then going to have five minutes. 281 00:20:56.766 --> 00:20:58.327 I'll put five minutes on the timer here. 282 00:20:58.968 --> 00:20:59.829 I'll pass you the plaud. 283 00:21:00.129 -->

00:21:00.869 Excellent. 284 00:21:01.270 --> 00:21:03.171 And then you give it your very best effort. 285 00:21:04.272 --> 00:21:05.112 I have sat there. 286 00:21:05.613 --> 00:21:14.535 So last time we recorded, I sat there and we had a guest, Natalie, who came back on and she said to me, Ben, like, you need to go through this to have some empathy with us because it's tough. 287 00:21:15.096 --> 00:21:16.056 And I sat there, didn't I? 288 00:21:16.076 --> 00:21:19.097 And I answered a question, which is going to come out in a few weeks time. 289 00:21:19.977 --> 00:21:25.421 And I just realized how much pressure and how your mind empties when that clock has five minutes on it. 290 00:21:26.121 --> 00:21:27.863 So I have all the empathy in the world. 291 00:21:28.563 --> 00:21:30.985 So that's what we'll do at the end of five minutes. 292 00:21:31.445 --> 00:21:33.907 We will then send your transcript over to Josh. 293 00:21:33.987 --> 00:21:39.371 Josh will process it and we'll have a conversation about how you answer the question and how you felt about that. 294 00:21:40.231 --> 00:22:04.128 um all good all good cool okay the difficult bit is during the five minutes i can't say anything okay so i'll just look at you supporting me okay that that's all that's all we'll do right i'll give these a shuffle um and you can choose okay okay so what card just looking at your face when i chose it number have you got you've got card 295 00:22:05.552 --> 00:22:06.272 What card have you got? 296 00:22:06.292 --> 00:22:08.333 I've got card five of five. 297 00:22:08.393 --> 00:22:09.093 Card five. 298 00:22:09.153 --> 00:22:09.833 Have a read. 299 00:22:09.973 --> 00:22:11.414 It's called the reversal card. 300 00:22:11.434 --> 00:22:12.334 The reversal card. 301 00:22:18.956 --> 00:22:21.917 Let me know if you're happy with that or if you would like to choose another one. 302 00:22:23.082 --> 00:22:25.305 No, I'm happy to stick with this one. 303 00:22:25.525 --> 00:22:25.746 Cool. 304 00:22:25.846 --> 00:22:27.047 Okay, let's lock it in. 305 00:22:27.188 --> 00:22:29.731 I feel like we have to... 306 00:22:29.911 --> 00:22:34.537 Okay, I'm going to read it out so the listeners and viewers know what you've got. 307 00:22:34.577 --> 00:22:37.822 So, Savvy selected the reversal card, card five. 308 00:22:37.862 --> 00:22:38.823 The scenario is this. 309 00:22:39.744 --> 00:22:42.026 A meaningful strategic decision you've championed. 310 00:22:42.206 --> 00:22:53.175 So it could be a hire, a market choice, a product direction, a program or an operational bet that you're publicly associated with has produced mixed results at best. 311 00:22:53.275 --> 00:22:54.696 It's tanked. 312 00:22:54.957 --> 00:23:02.523 The evidence is strong enough that reversing or changing your course is defensible, but reversing it is going to be expensive financially. 313 00:23:02.543 --> 00:23:05.685 It's going to be expensive operationally and personally. 314 00:23:05.705 --> 00:23:06.246 Okay. 315 00:23:06.426 --> 00:23:09.048 And your next board meeting is in two weeks time. 316 00:23:09.688 --> 00:23:12.731 The challenge is with all of this information, what is your call? 317 00:23:13.291 --> 00:23:16.093 So let me put five minutes on the timer. 318 00:23:19.816 --> 00:23:20.396 Here we go. 319 00:23:20.636 --> 00:23:21.457 Five minutes. 320 00:23:22.157 --> 00:23:23.058 I'll put the plug there. 321 00:23:23.238 --> 00:23:24.579 That's just ready to go. 322 00:23:24.639 --> 00:23:25.320 Josh, you good with that? 323 00:23:26.060 --> 00:23:26.500 Okay. 324 00:23:26.901 --> 00:23:28.522 Your five minutes starts. 325 00:23:30.638 --> 00:23:36.040 Okay, I think the first thing we've got to do is work out which one of those strategic decisions. 326 00:23:36.060 --> 00:23:40.542 So I'm going to go based on a hire, right? 327 00:23:40.562 --> 00:23:46.004 So first thing I want to understand is what's the impact of that particular hire? 328 00:23:46.084 --> 00:23:48.985 If it's a sales leader, that's going to have a bigger impact than it would. 329 00:23:49.525 --> 00:23:53.087 than it would be if it was a non-quota carrying salesperson. 330 00:23:53.107 --> 00:23:58.970 So let's go on the basis that this is a senior sales leader, right, sales manager. 331 00:24:00.011 --> 00:24:06.054 So first thing I need to understand is what will the impact be of probably a couple of different things of 332 00:24:07.216 --> 00:24:09.298 Removing that individual from the organization. 333 00:24:10.800 --> 00:24:11.660 And there's several choices. 334 00:24:11.781 --> 00:24:16.585 So it's either remove the individual, understand the why of why hasn't it worked. 335 00:24:16.665 --> 00:24:24.233 Because obviously they've been through, somebody made a decision and that decision was probably me at some point. 336 00:24:25.254 --> 00:24:28.517 to have hired this individual for a certain reason. 337 00:24:29.037 --> 00:24:32.641 I've got to go back and understand, was there a misplaced step? 338 00:24:32.721 --> 00:24:39.507 What did I miss during that entire hire process compared to the job that they're actually doing? 339 00:24:40.148 --> 00:24:45.012 So we've got to understand, was it an incorrect fit? 340 00:24:45.233 --> 00:24:46.454 Was there something that I missed? 341 00:24:46.674 --> 00:24:47.295 Was there... 342 00:24:48.296 --> 00:24:50.858 the rationale on why they're missing their particular targets? 343 00:24:51.099 --> 00:24:53.962 Is it a personal thing for the individual? 344 00:24:54.142 --> 00:24:57.606 Because sometimes they may be great in a previous company. 345 00:24:57.646 --> 00:25:00.008 We always know that experience is one thing. 346 00:25:00.409 --> 00:25:03.552 But when you move an individual into an organization, culture... 347 00:25:04.737 --> 00:25:09.301 behaviors, different traits come out to an individual, especially when they're under pressure and those sort of things. 348 00:25:09.921 --> 00:25:17.367 So

for me, that's the most important thing is understanding the why and then understanding the impact of making that change. 349 00:25:17.487 --> 00:25:23.111 We all know, especially if it was a sales leader or an individual, they may already have customer relationships. 350 00:25:23.211 --> 00:25:27.815 Got to worry about the customer from a customer perspective, worry about the team underneath them. 351 00:25:28.936 --> 00:25:33.920 and what impact this will have on the team, especially if the hire had been there for a very long time. 352 00:25:35.181 --> 00:25:37.983 And one important thing is, is it recoverable? 353 00:25:39.064 --> 00:25:50.793 Is there something that I can do to intervene in order to try and either improve the situation or if it needs to be... 354 00:25:52.135 --> 00:26:01.088 and it's accepted that we remove the individual, but I need a plan or an interim plan in order to be able to worry about... 355 00:26:02.581 --> 00:26:03.962 It really goes back to that impact statement. 356 00:26:04.002 --> 00:26:08.066 Once I go to know the impact statement, then I'll potentially know the changes that I need to make. 357 00:26:08.606 --> 00:26:18.094 So I'd like to also understand what the evidence is, because we're saying that the evidence is strong enough that reversing or changing course needs to understand what the evidence is. 358 00:26:18.694 --> 00:26:20.115 Is it just numbers? 359 00:26:20.436 --> 00:26:21.096 Is it individuals? 360 00:26:21.156 --> 00:26:21.697 Is it people? 361 00:26:21.817 --> 00:26:26.601 Who's it impacting across the organization, both from the internal and from an external perspective? 362 00:26:27.602 --> 00:26:32.167 I think the most important thing is because it was my decision, I got to take full ownership. 363 00:26:32.247 --> 00:26:39.976 What can I learn through this entire process that we've got to do differently so that the next hire that I bring in isn't going to be in the same situation? 364 00:26:40.516 --> 00:26:46.963 But the remedy for me to be able to go to the board is go present a plan, which is... 365 00:26:48.625 --> 00:26:50.705 here's the why, here's what's happened. 366 00:26:50.925 --> 00:26:52.206 This is the process we went through. 367 00:26:52.226 --> 00:26:56.887 This is the reason why they were seen as a very good hire at the point of hire. 368 00:26:57.367 --> 00:26:58.767 After that, here's what went wrong. 369 00:26:59.007 --> 00:27:01.208 Here's what we've learned through that entire process. 370 00:27:01.708 --> 00:27:04.928 And here is the plan that we've now got to remedy it. 371 00:27:05.448 --> 00:27:09.649 And that could be, again, trying to put them through some performance improvement plan. 372 00:27:10.129 --> 00:27:14.390 It will be potentially a short-term interim individual person. 373 00:27:15.190 --> 00:27:16.671 Do I take ownership of it myself? 374 00:27:16.831 --> 00:27:17.911 Remove the individual and then... 375 00:27:18.511 --> 00:27:25.136 take a step

down and manage the entire team, which I've done on several previous situations. 376 00:27:26.197 --> 00:27:28.159 But I think that to me is probably the most important thing. 377 00:27:28.599 --> 00:27:29.680 It's that impact statement. 378 00:27:29.820 --> 00:27:33.944 It's understanding what the impact is from a customer, from an employee perspective. 379 00:27:34.144 --> 00:27:38.067 But it's also just making sure that we've got enough data points and evidence that we've got enough data points and evidence. 380 00:27:38.628 --> 00:27:41.491 And it's not only taking one or two individuals. 381 00:27:41.952 --> 00:27:56.669 It's almost like doing a 360, especially when it's a higher on not only the people below them, but also their peers and other other individuals across the organization that have seen the evidence that rather reinforces or potentially contradicts. 382 00:27:57.810 --> 00:28:25.938 some of it because sometimes it could be personalities and when it's things like personalities it makes it sometimes we see that happen right individuals just don't get on but that's nothing to do with that individual it's just the circumstance so can we change the situation that that individual is sort of operating it so yeah I think that's pretty much where I'd end up and I've done it within five seconds to go 383 00:28:27.733 --> 00:28:28.214 Very good. 384 00:28:28.674 --> 00:28:29.195 Very good. 385 00:28:30.636 --> 00:28:31.077 Got it, Josh? 386 00:28:31.797 --> 00:28:32.498 Success. 387 00:28:32.738 --> 00:28:33.339 Excellent. 388 00:28:33.459 --> 00:28:34.600 And we've never had to do it twice. 389 00:28:34.801 --> 00:28:35.602 So that's good. 390 00:28:35.642 --> 00:28:37.524 We can we complete the car of our run. 391 00:28:38.665 --> 00:28:40.967 First of all, initial emotional response. 392 00:28:41.027 --> 00:28:41.588 How was that? 393 00:28:44.291 --> 00:28:47.014 You can feel the pressure that you mentioned earlier, right? 394 00:28:47.134 --> 00:28:48.556 Because it's 395 00:28:50.147 --> 00:28:53.471 I suppose one thing is, would that ever be reality, right? 396 00:28:53.491 --> 00:28:55.094 That you only have that period of time. 397 00:28:56.415 --> 00:29:05.027 I think the thing it does make you do is it really does make you think on the spot very quickly. 398 00:29:05.047 --> 00:29:05.207 Right. 399 00:29:05.347 --> 00:29:05.607 Right. 400 00:29:05.627 --> 00:29:07.068 So I didn't know which scenario to choose. 401 00:29:07.108 --> 00:29:09.249 And then it was a case of you have to choose certain things. 402 00:29:09.269 --> 00:29:12.011 You have to choose what situation are you going to put yourself in? 403 00:29:12.351 --> 00:29:15.913 What example out of the because you gave me so many options. 404 00:29:16.093 --> 00:29:17.614 Yeah, it's like it's very broad, isn't it? 405 00:29:17.814 --> 00:29:18.115 It is. 406 00:29:18.295 --> 00:29:23.518 And then you have to really be specific because if I tried to answer it across all

of them, I'd have failed. 407 00:29:24.078 --> 00:29:30.182 So I think focus is is one thing that the pressure makes you do is really focus the mind. 408 00:29:30.922 --> 00:29:51.058 um and then it's like there's a thousand things going through your head um so it's like i could say this um i i think this is the right thing to say so you're you're consciously um subliminally thinking different things and probably what came out may not be the thing i was actually thinking about at that moment in time yeah um 409 00:29:51.745 --> 00:30:00.314 And quite quickly, it also allows you to be able to, when you're thinking about one thing, you're probably thinking about the next step already. 410 00:30:00.815 --> 00:30:02.316 About, okay, what's the impact of that? 411 00:30:02.497 --> 00:30:04.078 What will happen at that point? 412 00:30:04.979 --> 00:30:08.183 Okay, yeah, I made a bad hire, but that was ultimately my hire. 413 00:30:08.503 --> 00:30:11.506 So take full ownership, take accountability, those sort of things. 414 00:30:13.348 --> 00:30:18.810 Would I have got to that point straight away or would I have spent more time on show me the evidence? 415 00:30:18.990 --> 00:30:22.352 Until I see the evidence, I'm not moving to the next point. 416 00:30:22.912 --> 00:30:32.956 So, yeah, it's it's I think it's a good way of doing it because it now if I took that same scenario and did it in a five minute and then used. 417 00:30:33.916 --> 00:30:39.118 the thought process to then now I've got two weeks to map this out with a board. 418 00:30:40.879 --> 00:30:56.744 That's something that, and would I have done anything differently that I did in that five minutes that I did, that I would have done over the two week period and all it would have been is just the same stuff, but just elongated with all the evidence, having done the 360s, spoken to everybody. 419 00:30:58.665 --> 00:31:00.666 Personally, I don't think I probably would have done anything differently. 420 00:31:01.106 --> 00:31:11.769 Yeah, it's the first bit that I think, until you've sat in that chair, the arousal levels, like, you know, we talk about, in performance, we talk about like peak arousal levels. 421 00:31:11.809 --> 00:31:21.673 And I think like people have sat in that chair and you can see the emotional, it's like you're too self-aware sometimes. 422 00:31:22.293 --> 00:31:28.935 And I think what you've just described is really spot on, that you have an idea about where you're going. 423 00:31:29.815 --> 00:31:39.963 And I could see you anchoring back on maybe past experiences, your philosophy and methodologies of how you lead and how you make decisions. 424 00:31:40.564 --> 00:31:47.329 And then because you then catch a glimpse of the timer, realise you're like, you're on a show, there's no edits with this, everyone, this is it. 425 00:31:47.850 --> 00:31:48.730 It then throws you, doesn't it? 426 00:31:48.790 --> 00:31:49.691 Yeah, it did. 427 00:31:49.771 --> 00:31:51.993 And you come back and you're like, hang on, where was my train of thought? 428 00:31:52.033 --> 00:31:52.573 Where was my... 429 00:31:53.354 --> 00:32:00.298 And it's the timer that really changes everything because I looked at it, I think probably twice, I think it was like three and a half minutes. 430 00:32:00.418 --> 00:32:01.699 You've got ages. 431 00:32:01.959 --> 00:32:08.083 Then I saw a minute and 10 and then it was like 20 seconds and it was like, okay, you need to find a way of wrapping this up, right? 432 00:32:08.163 --> 00:32:08.363 Yeah. 433 00:32:08.543 --> 00:32:11.025 Just to be able to stop. 434 00:32:11.905 --> 00:32:27.945 overthinking it because that's the other thing that you can always end up doing is you know three and a half minutes I still got no stuff I'm not even halfway through but then you get to a minute and it's like well actually it's really getting close and then looking at 20 seconds it's like right now find a way of closing this out 435 00:32:28.345 --> 00:32:37.451 And I think it's, so I've used the timed element and scenario stuff with leaders across various different experiences, et cetera. 436 00:32:37.991 --> 00:32:39.672 And used it in interviews as well. 437 00:32:40.173 --> 00:32:52.241 And actually what's really interesting is the second bit that you talked about, which is, okay, if I had another go and more time, I've now got a very like concentrated effort. 438 00:32:53.081 --> 00:33:21.514 experience set of i said i would do this in that five minutes which bits would i stick with which are kind of my go-tos as a leader like those those anchor and make sense those are kind of value value-led fundamentals in terms of my approach but also there's some there's always some new stuff that comes up which is interesting it's like okay well actually i said that and i said i would do that like would i have if i hadn't had the pressure situation and the hypothetical would i actually do that over two weeks yeah 439 00:33:22.121 --> 00:33:32.975 And I think that provides a really nice thought experiment for all of us to, I mean, I'm not suggesting you go home now and go, right, next big decision for the business, five minutes and let's go. 440 00:33:33.556 --> 00:33:39.904 But I think, you know, you talked earlier about buying back some time, like using AI to buy back some time. 441 00:33:40.665 --> 00:33:55.659 I think using time really, really sensibly and sometimes on our own, you know, I'm not like Pomodoro technique, et cetera, like thinking about, right, well, I'm just going to set myself a challenge to work through this solution in a set period of time and see where I get to. 442 00:33:55.679 --> 00:33:56.540 Yeah. 443 00:33:56.860 --> 00:33:58.842 I think it's a really interesting thought experiment. 444 00:33:59.668 --> 00:34:01.730 Yeah, and I think it's probably something I'll take away, actually. 445 00:34:01.950 --> 00:34:08.658 I will try it next time I'm given a problem or something in any one

of these types of scenarios. 446 00:34:09.238 --> 00:34:12.822 Maybe I will try and time myself and just try and say, and put it all down. 447 00:34:13.943 --> 00:34:17.948 Sometimes just recording it and just being able to then listen back and say, well, actually, would I have... 448 00:34:18.388 --> 00:34:19.910 Would I have done that differently? 449 00:34:20.030 --> 00:34:21.811 Because then you can really break it down. 450 00:34:22.352 --> 00:34:29.059 And the way that you actually spent that five minutes to be able to turn around and say, well, actually, would I really have done that? 451 00:34:29.179 --> 00:34:35.185 Stop at that point and then try and put a plan together and then constantly go back and say, well, actually, I think I did miss something. 452 00:34:36.105 --> 00:34:42.208 and then be able to build it probably further out, knowing that I've got a two-week period before I see the board. 453 00:34:42.348 --> 00:34:42.709 Yeah, yeah. 454 00:34:42.869 --> 00:34:43.469 Yeah, exactly. 455 00:34:43.849 --> 00:34:44.650 Here's a question for you. 456 00:34:44.670 --> 00:34:45.090 Yeah. 457 00:34:45.370 --> 00:34:54.475 Do you have, with whatever LLM you're using, do you have a version of you built in that that you use as a thought partner at all? 458 00:34:54.495 --> 00:34:54.975 Yes, I do. 459 00:34:55.095 --> 00:34:55.355 You do? 460 00:34:55.415 --> 00:34:55.715 Yeah. 461 00:34:55.755 --> 00:34:56.836 So I use Claude. 462 00:34:56.956 --> 00:34:57.256 Yeah. 463 00:34:57.276 --> 00:34:59.277 So I basically built skills and... 464 00:34:59.337 --> 00:35:00.098 Projects and skills. 465 00:35:00.118 --> 00:35:01.758 ...used it to be able to... 466 00:35:01.858 --> 00:35:04.480 So if you think about my weekly sales update... 467 00:35:05.060 --> 00:35:05.840 It knows my tone. 468 00:35:05.860 --> 00:35:07.261 It knows how I write. 469 00:35:07.761 --> 00:35:26.450 I've thrown lots of things at it that I've previously done as town halls and communications and scripts and that sort of stuff to be able to then understand, you know, things like empathy and everything else that you that you really need to be able to do when you're a leader of, you know, we've got 400 people in the business and we're a global business. 470 00:35:26.470 --> 00:35:29.012 So you need to understand cultural differences as well. 471 00:35:29.432 --> 00:35:31.293 So when you put a global note out, 472 00:35:32.393 --> 00:35:39.596 Sometimes you forget about the fact that there's certain words in certain regions have a different tone and a different expectation. 473 00:35:40.076 --> 00:35:44.898 So I try and feed as much as I possibly can, knowing the tone and everything else. 474 00:35:45.298 --> 00:35:56.063 So when I do come up with my weekly sales bulletin, the last thing I'm doing, and I put memory on as well so it understands all the stuff that I previously did, to be able to then pull something back out again that actually... 475 00:35:56.863 --> 00:35:58.946 is me or as close to me as possible. 476 00:35:59.407 --> 00:36:05.536 And then I give it my own tone and my element of human in the loop. 477 00:36:06.658 --> 00:36:07.258 Review that. 478 00:36:07.519 --> 00:36:08.861 And then that gets fed back in. 479 00:36:09.762 --> 00:36:11.364 So next time it does it, it will learn again. 480 00:36:11.785 --> 00:36:12.946 Yeah, and it's so powerful. 481 00:36:12.986 --> 00:36:14.206 So I do the same. 482 00:36:14.366 --> 00:36:31.836 Like basically, Claude, again, projects, memory, instructions, you know, the context is, I think my context for me as a founder of Ethereum is like 97% I've used up of the context bit, which is basically for everyone who doesn't use, who should use it. 483 00:36:31.896 --> 00:36:39.300 Context is where you can drop documents and et cetera to help it understand the context of who you are and the decisions you want it to help you with. 484 00:36:39.980 --> 00:36:42.941 Um, so I'm, I'm fully aligned with you on that. 485 00:36:43.401 --> 00:36:57.144 I, um, had a conversation with a business that we're working with last week and I spoke to the COO and I said, right, before we go into this session, so they're a virtual business that like based across the Middle East, the UK and the US. 486 00:36:58.044 --> 00:37:03.286 And I said to him, right, like before we do this, this virtual session with a group of leaders, I was like, what's changed? 487 00:37:03.786 --> 00:37:09.027 I tend to do like a, what's changed the week before we've got the curriculum, the syllabus, we know what we're working on, but I was like, what's changed? 488 00:37:09.907 --> 00:37:16.492 And he said to me, he said, well, we've just rolled out Claude across all of the leaders. 489 00:37:18.013 --> 00:37:25.478 I was like, when you say just rolled out, like how, like where's everyone's kind of usability? 490 00:37:25.659 --> 00:37:26.879 Like where's their skill set at? 491 00:37:27.600 --> 00:37:29.281 And I was like, have you got projects set up? 492 00:37:29.301 --> 00:37:30.162 He was like, no, no, no. 493 00:37:30.442 --> 00:37:33.044 Like we're just chat interface. 494 00:37:33.804 --> 00:37:34.565 And this was last week. 495 00:37:34.785 --> 00:37:35.426 Yeah. 496 00:37:35.566 --> 00:37:37.387 Really successful scale up. 497 00:37:38.817 --> 00:37:40.539 I said, okay, well, I've got a suggestion for you. 498 00:37:41.060 --> 00:37:47.287 My suggestion is actually that we probably just look at building everyone's first claw project as part of the session. 499 00:37:48.148 --> 00:37:52.253 And I came on the call and I was like, right, we're just going to use like my screen. 500 00:37:52.313 --> 00:37:53.435 I'll show you what I've set up. 501 00:37:53.955 --> 00:37:57.640 And by the end of it, they'd all begun to set up their own claw projects. 502 00:37:58.115 --> 00:38:02.718 And I'm not like an AI clawed, you know, facilitator. 503 00:38:03.359 --> 00:38:06.981 But it was just, I was

thinking like in that moment, what was the most important thing that's going to be valuable for them? 504 00:38:07.722 --> 00:38:09.903 I just had to kind of pull some of the wool away from their eyes. 505 00:38:09.963 --> 00:38:13.486 And at the end of it, they were like, oh, and we could use this. 506 00:38:13.586 --> 00:38:14.787 We could use this for sales. 507 00:38:14.847 --> 00:38:17.529 We could use this for, you know, customer success, et cetera. 508 00:38:17.549 --> 00:38:17.809 I was like. 509 00:38:18.638 --> 00:38:18.898 Yes. 510 00:38:19.538 --> 00:38:21.940 Like you need to, you need to spend some time over here. 511 00:38:22.320 --> 00:38:22.940 We did exactly. 512 00:38:22.960 --> 00:38:27.482 So at the beginning of this year, we actually rolled out Claude to every single employee in the entire organization. 513 00:38:27.502 --> 00:38:29.463 We gave everybody Claude. 514 00:38:29.603 --> 00:38:34.506 Then we put them through training, um, through some basic Claude 101 and, um, 515 00:38:35.226 --> 00:38:40.027 basic understanding co-work, projects, scheduling, those sort of things. 516 00:38:40.527 --> 00:38:44.388 And then on top of that, we also then created AI champions by function. 517 00:38:44.829 --> 00:38:55.871 So these are individuals that have got even further training, people who are actually interested in learning the tools, because that's the most important thing is actually don't just give it to people and expect them to use it. 518 00:38:55.992 --> 00:38:57.792 You want people who are actually interested, 519 00:38:58.152 --> 00:39:26.152 really experience but most importantly curiosity right because they will be the ones who can literally change the prompts move stuff around scheduling activities and so we built AI Champions by function so anybody in the entire organisation who wants to build something because we all know that you know when we're giving everybody a set number of tokens and there's always people who turn around and say well I need more tokens Fable 5 yeah 520 00:39:27.232 --> 00:39:27.953 I need more tokens. 521 00:39:27.993 --> 00:39:33.597 And it's like, well, actually, do you really need more tokens or do we just need to sit down and work out exactly what you're doing? 522 00:39:33.617 --> 00:39:38.421 And that's what the AI champions are doing is then sitting down with somebody and say, well, actually, there's a better way of doing this. 523 00:39:38.501 --> 00:39:40.002 Actually, let me show you. 524 00:39:40.442 --> 00:39:42.404 It's not a case of let me do it for you. 525 00:39:42.584 --> 00:39:47.167 That's something that we're really trying to ensure doesn't happen. 526 00:39:47.668 --> 00:39:48.908 If somebody just turns around and says... 527 00:39:49.729 --> 00:39:50.870 Don't worry, I'll just do it for you. 528 00:39:51.010 --> 00:39:53.031 It's like, no, let me teach you how to do it. 529 00:39:53.412 --> 00:39:58.395 And if you don't have that teach element, then you'll just get to a

point where people will just stop using the tool. 530 00:39:59.075 --> 00:40:04.379 Because curiosity is ultimately, I think, probably the biggest thing that we found in our AI champions. 531 00:40:04.919 --> 00:40:13.065 And it's amazing how quickly they get to understand, but how much all of a sudden they free up the time 532 00:40:14.161 --> 00:40:17.685 to be the champion because they're using the tool to do other stuff. 533 00:40:17.725 --> 00:40:21.288 So it's not a case of all of a sudden we found extra time for them to be a champion. 534 00:40:21.709 --> 00:40:33.922 It's just that because they've mastered the tool a lot better, they've actually provided efficiency in their day-to-day that actually says, actually, I can spare an extra hour every day or a day a week to go and actually, hey, 535 00:40:34.712 --> 00:40:35.533 Ben, how's it going? 536 00:40:35.693 --> 00:40:36.453 Let me help you do it. 537 00:40:36.553 --> 00:40:38.835 What were you currently working on from a project perspective? 538 00:40:39.355 --> 00:40:41.596 What's your biggest pain point at this precise moment? 539 00:40:41.796 --> 00:40:44.178 Sitting down with you and saying, actually, Ben, there's a way of doing that. 540 00:40:44.198 --> 00:40:46.439 Let me show you how you would do that. 541 00:40:46.619 --> 00:40:50.202 Open up your Claude, show me, you know, and then have you 542 00:40:51.837 --> 00:40:55.460 create your skills, create all the context, create all of that stuff. 543 00:40:55.480 --> 00:40:58.763 So, and it's materially made the difference. 544 00:40:58.783 --> 00:41:09.313 So a lot of the stuff I was referring to earlier, some of this stuff is from individuals that have never ever been exposed to AI tools, but all of a sudden have a passion for it. 545 00:41:10.294 --> 00:41:12.916 And you've got to find those change agents within the organization. 546 00:41:13.056 --> 00:41:16.119 And that's what for us has made the biggest difference. 547 00:41:16.459 --> 00:41:43.638 yeah i spent 22 years running leadership workshops people left the room inspired but six weeks later nothing had changed in how they were managing their teams nobody was measuring the only thing that counts behavior and this is why we built ethereo ethereo develop works where your managers already work in microsoft teams slack outlook and google it measures how they actually lead and then coaches them in the moment in your language 548 00:41:43.838 --> 00:41:46.683 Privacy first, patterns, never content. 549 00:41:46.803 --> 00:41:49.127 Check it out at getetherio.com. 550 00:41:54.216 --> 00:42:07.920 It feels to me like the businesses that are really accelerating across a whole spectrum of metrics right now are full of people who are eager to learn. 551 00:42:08.560 --> 00:42:08.780 Yeah. 552 00:42:08.860 --> 00:42:17.282 Right now, there is a moment that I don't think that there hasn't been for ages where everyone has an opportunity to learn something that's completely novel for everyone. 553 00:42:18.002 --> 00:42:23.084 And I think you're right in terms of creating the right access to the right resources, the right tools. 554 00:42:24.645 --> 00:42:35.315 making it accessible, but people understanding the why and those internal change champions agents who are able to teach and that I completely align with. 555 00:42:35.335 --> 00:42:36.536 It's not do for you. 556 00:42:36.596 --> 00:42:39.979 It's not here's the checklist of how to create a project. 557 00:42:40.860 --> 00:43:04.710 it's it's teach but i think it's that sparking of the curiosity yeah um it's super cool josh waved at us did you see him uh i didn't i was i was obviously concentrating on this it's a very cool conversation i feel like we can talk for ages about it um but we're not sponsored by claudia on the podcast okay okay you did mini jazz hands you did mini jazz hands um should we have a look at your score okay 558 00:43:05.350 --> 00:43:05.590 Yeah. 559 00:43:05.731 --> 00:43:08.714 And this is the bit where everyone goes like this, either this grip. 560 00:43:09.334 --> 00:43:09.715 Okay. 561 00:43:10.636 --> 00:43:11.016 You're in. 562 00:43:11.036 --> 00:43:11.376 You're in. 563 00:43:11.436 --> 00:43:11.757 Okay. 564 00:43:11.897 --> 00:43:12.097 Right. 565 00:43:12.117 --> 00:43:13.098 Savvy, let's have a look at your score. 566 00:43:15.621 --> 00:43:16.982 Oh, okay. 567 00:43:17.363 --> 00:43:18.684 Okay. 568 00:43:18.704 --> 00:43:20.106 32, 32. 569 00:43:20.306 --> 00:43:25.471 So the architect, let's have a look at your strengths. 570 00:43:25.591 --> 00:43:27.934 So have a read of your strength and then have a read of your watch out. 571 00:43:36.418 --> 00:43:38.144 Okay, that's fair. 572 00:43:39.228 --> 00:43:42.077 Okay, so what's your initial feedback? 573 00:43:44.458 --> 00:43:46.179 Look, on the strength, I think that's true. 574 00:43:46.619 --> 00:43:51.342 One thing I always like to do is get a good understanding of exactly what the issue is, right? 575 00:43:51.382 --> 00:43:54.383 And what the problem is, rather than jumping to conclusions straight away. 576 00:43:54.983 --> 00:43:59.225 I probably in my mind, I've got an idea of what I think the outcome is going to be. 577 00:43:59.686 --> 00:44:01.747 But I want to find a way of reinforcing it. 578 00:44:01.847 --> 00:44:08.490 So evidence, data, getting an idea of every multiple views. 579 00:44:09.750 --> 00:44:16.132 rather than because sometimes one person could turn around and say, well, this isn't going to work, this individual, go back to the scenario. 580 00:44:16.793 --> 00:44:19.514 This isn't the right hire, we made a mistake, etc. 581 00:44:20.574 --> 00:44:22.355 But that could be one person's view, right? 582 00:44:22.495 --> 00:44:27.917 Getting a holistic view from multiple sources, I think, for me is key. 583 00:44:27.957 --> 00:44:31.138 So that rather than jumping straight is... 584 00:44:33.074 --> 00:44:34.876 Yeah, I'd say it was spot on. 585

00:44:35.376 --> 00:44:37.838 And I think you're the architect element. 586 00:44:37.858 --> 00:44:42.382 So we talked earlier, five minutes, like contrived situation. 587 00:44:42.982 --> 00:44:47.807 And I think the architect archetype, I could see you orchestrating. 588 00:44:48.967 --> 00:44:49.928 the play you were going to make. 589 00:44:50.408 --> 00:45:06.394 And I think for me, what the intelligence engine has kind of seen is you've operated at your level in terms of, right, these are all the parameters, which comes into the trade-off articulation and the strategic clarity bit. 590 00:45:06.414 --> 00:45:08.795 I think your strategic clarity was really strong. 591 00:45:08.815 --> 00:45:10.956 You could see actually what's the impact of this. 592 00:45:11.916 --> 00:45:20.788 I think in the five minutes, what the engine is looking for, it's like, right, well, actually, did you go into making an actual call? 593 00:45:20.929 --> 00:45:21.730 Yeah. 594 00:45:22.250 --> 00:45:25.294 And, or were you operating at this level? 595 00:45:26.216 --> 00:45:26.396 Yeah. 596 00:45:26.656 --> 00:45:27.137 And, yeah. 597 00:45:28.053 --> 00:45:42.163 And I actually think for you, the way you use the time, you were definitely at that discernment, architecting in terms of discernment, rather than going, right, this is what I'm going to do, and these are the parameters. 598 00:45:43.764 --> 00:45:49.167 So I think, you know, it talks about the watch out, you know, never actually naming the actual call. 599 00:45:49.868 --> 00:45:55.332 I think that that plays into probably the way you approached the question 600 00:45:56.785 --> 00:46:00.086 But also potentially your leadership style. 601 00:46:00.506 --> 00:46:04.506 So what I got from the way you answered in terms of your leadership style was very fact-finding. 602 00:46:05.207 --> 00:46:10.087 Like how do I get across all of these facts before I make the decision? 603 00:46:10.107 --> 00:46:13.508 And as you said, you've got two weeks, not five minutes. 604 00:46:13.748 --> 00:46:15.548 Correct. 605 00:46:15.709 --> 00:46:23.130 Which is interesting on the watch out because when it says you never call out, never made the actual call, 606 00:46:24.072 --> 00:46:25.534 I'm not sure if I would, right? 607 00:46:25.815 --> 00:46:32.204 Even after hearing that, I think if we did it again, I still wouldn't make the call because I don't have the evidence. 608 00:46:32.585 --> 00:46:33.846 I haven't got all the fact finding. 609 00:46:34.027 --> 00:46:34.928 I haven't got everything. 610 00:46:35.329 --> 00:46:39.294 But what I do have, I've got a two week period, but what I do have is a plan. 611 00:46:39.895 --> 00:46:43.577 By the time I get to the board meeting, I would have made a decision for it. 612 00:46:44.037 --> 00:46:52.460 But in that five-minute period, I don't have enough to be able to make the call on, and this is what we're going to do. 613 00:46:52.480 --> 00:46:56.782 We're either going to reverse the decision or we're going to continue with the hire. 614 00:46:57.222 --> 00:47:04.726 Because going back to the strength is, otherwise what I am doing then had the watch out happened, 615 00:47:05.570 --> 00:47:12.537 I'd have made the decision in the five minutes by turning around now to you and saying, I'm going to reverse it, but I don't have any evidence. 616 00:47:12.777 --> 00:47:14.879 I haven't done all the call. 617 00:47:14.899 --> 00:47:17.602 So for me, it's sometimes, you know, I think you're right in that. 618 00:47:18.483 --> 00:47:28.566 I'm orchestrating and I know exactly what the plan is and I know the outcome that I need to get to, but I need all of the information and evidence. 619 00:47:28.846 --> 00:47:30.587 Otherwise I will make a snap decision. 620 00:47:31.547 --> 00:47:33.088 And that's not what we wanna do. 621 00:47:33.688 --> 00:47:33.908 Right? 622 00:47:33.928 --> 00:47:43.751 And I think the bit that the challenge, the scenario is pulling against your approach in was about, where is it? 623 00:47:43.951 --> 00:47:45.192 The evidence is strong enough 624 00:47:45.752 --> 00:47:48.514 the reversing or changing your course is defensible. 625 00:47:49.515 --> 00:47:57.322 So I think that's the bit in there where the question is pulling against your desire to know everything. 626 00:47:57.842 --> 00:47:57.982 Yeah. 627 00:47:58.382 --> 00:48:04.327 And I think the thing I would say there is that, you know, when it says the evidence is strong enough, but from whose perspective? 628 00:48:04.728 --> 00:48:05.849 Because I have, because... 629 00:48:06.529 --> 00:48:10.794 Because I'm being given the scenario, it's like the evidence is, but show me that evidence. 630 00:48:10.874 --> 00:48:15.378 And once I have the evidence and I agree with the evidence, then it's easy to make the decision. 631 00:48:15.418 --> 00:48:24.208 If I had the, I still got two weeks, during that two-week period, we'd have a review of that evidence. 632 00:48:24.268 --> 00:48:28.712 Again, it comes down to, especially when it comes down to these types of things, 633 00:48:29.873 --> 00:48:35.760 it will, different situations put you in a different mode of leadership, right? 634 00:48:35.780 --> 00:48:44.048 So in a five minute period there I'm probably, you know, process from a leadership perspective just understanding the process, here's what I would do etc. 635 00:48:44.589 --> 00:48:48.693 But once I've got all the evidence then you're into an entirely different type of leadership which is 636 00:48:49.714 --> 00:48:50.635 Now you've got to make a decision. 637 00:48:50.975 --> 00:48:53.456 Okay, based on all of this, I know what the decision is going to be. 638 00:48:53.856 --> 00:48:57.238 And then you build the story around, okay, now I can go to the board. 639 00:48:57.258 --> 00:48:57.998 I've got all the evidence. 640 00:48:58.038 --> 00:48:58.699 I've got everything. 641 00:48:59.159 --> 00:49:08.544 Now I can go to the

board and turn around and say, based on everything I've done, based on the historical evidence, based on this, that, and the other, which I absolutely support, agree, and everything else, this is the call I'm going to make. 642 00:49:08.977 --> 00:49:09.157 Yeah. 643 00:49:09.718 --> 00:49:26.809 And I think that's the beauty slash challenge of the decision sprint is that it doesn't allow you the parameters to approach it outside of that confined environment. 644 00:49:26.829 --> 00:49:35.855 And as you rightly said, like actually running this sort of exercise as a leader in a business yourself to be able to have a play with it and go, OK, cool. 645 00:49:35.875 --> 00:49:37.597 Well, like, actually, I like that bit. 646 00:49:38.157 --> 00:49:40.719 I like that bit of what I can take away from it. 647 00:49:41.059 --> 00:49:43.521 But ultimately, it's why we still want humans leading humans. 648 00:49:43.541 --> 00:49:43.801 Yeah. 649 00:49:45.122 --> 00:49:45.322 Yeah. 650 00:49:45.403 --> 00:49:48.705 I think that that underlines this, that actually there's leadership is. 651 00:49:49.225 --> 00:49:53.729 So my CTO, when we met, I trained him as a leader. 652 00:49:53.749 --> 00:49:54.810 He was in a software business. 653 00:49:54.830 --> 00:49:55.530 I trained him as a leader. 654 00:49:56.091 --> 00:50:00.114 And we were having dinner one night on the program. 655 00:50:00.514 --> 00:50:05.438 And he said to me, Ben, I think for me, leadership is where science meets art. 656 00:50:06.315 --> 00:50:08.438 And he said, in that respect, it's a bit like Leonardo da Vinci. 657 00:50:09.198 --> 00:50:12.863 Like, without the science of Leonardo da Vinci's work, the art wouldn't have been as good. 658 00:50:13.463 --> 00:50:16.427 And without the art, his science would have been seen by anyone. 659 00:50:16.547 --> 00:50:21.453 And I think that's the important part to kind of mention here as well. 660 00:50:22.494 --> 00:50:22.975 No, that's fair. 661 00:50:23.255 --> 00:50:24.376 That's fair. 662 00:50:25.097 --> 00:50:25.738 And look, there's a... 663 00:50:27.257 --> 00:50:35.682 there's learnings, right, from this to be able to go back and actually read the scenario properly, right? 664 00:50:35.782 --> 00:50:44.027 So that whole, you know, now you've pointed it out around the fact that the evidence is strong enough for you to be able to make a decision and that. 665 00:50:44.628 --> 00:50:47.830 I probably didn't, there's certain things you always end up disregarding. 666 00:50:47.950 --> 00:50:49.591 I disregarded that element of it, right? 667 00:50:49.651 --> 00:50:51.152 Because I went straight to... 668 00:50:52.275 --> 00:50:56.157 okay, this is about, yes, there's evidence, but do I agree with the evidence? 669 00:50:56.177 --> 00:50:56.577 Have you seen it? 670 00:50:56.597 --> 00:50:57.437 Have you supported it? 671 00:50:57.477 --> 00:51:01.719 So sometimes you may end up overthinking it, right? 672 00:51:01.859 --> 00:51:06.100 And

in that scenario, I probably said, well, actually, I need to see the evidence. 673 00:51:06.621 --> 00:51:11.022 And sometimes as a leader, you've got to delegate that element of it. 674 00:51:11.643 --> 00:51:17.325 So if I delegated that and people have come to me and said, there's enough evidence, I probably shouldn't have questioned it. 675 00:51:17.919 --> 00:51:19.861 Yeah, and I think I agree with you. 676 00:51:20.141 --> 00:51:23.625 And it's very like your humility there is fantastic. 677 00:51:23.645 --> 00:51:33.634 I think the selected scenario that you created, the sales leader that you probably made the hire on, I think that just pulls you into it, doesn't it? 678 00:51:34.135 --> 00:51:37.998 That actually I need to see the evidence because I made the hire. 679 00:51:38.259 --> 00:51:39.580 It's a senior sales leader. 680 00:51:40.160 --> 00:51:42.343 And so I think that pulls you closer to, 681 00:51:42.903 --> 00:52:08.651 to it emotionally morally etc which probably means that you weren't able to then at the same time delegate and say cool i've got i i will take that at face value yeah that's absolutely spot on because you know in my own head i'm thinking about a certain scenario and and that exact scenario where i did do the hire um but i was emotionally tired because it was my hire yeah all right so you don't you don't ever want to see if you're a 682 00:52:09.451 --> 00:52:15.655 if you're a general manager of a business or a sales manager and you've made a bad sales hire, that's on me, right? 683 00:52:15.695 --> 00:52:16.816 That's on nobody else. 684 00:52:17.977 --> 00:52:28.204 And you will always be emotionally tied to that because in theory, what's happening now is people are questioning your judgment and your managerial leadership in relation to having done that. 685 00:52:29.865 --> 00:52:32.988 And that's the last thing any individual ever wants to have happen, right? 686 00:52:33.088 --> 00:52:36.050 Is anybody questioning your abilities? 687 00:52:36.370 --> 00:52:37.351 And in effect... 688 00:52:38.351 --> 00:52:47.902 that's what they were doing or this scenario was doing and providing evidence that says, well, actually, Sabi, you did make a bad hire and we've got all the evidence to show that it was a bad hire. 689 00:52:48.636 --> 00:52:51.217 You're still going to turn around and say, show me the evidence. 690 00:52:51.237 --> 00:52:53.397 Yeah, because it's like massively confronting, isn't it? 691 00:52:53.557 --> 00:52:54.877 Like completely, completely. 692 00:52:56.218 --> 00:52:56.558 Enjoy it? 693 00:52:57.418 --> 00:52:57.838 Wonderful. 694 00:52:58.098 --> 00:53:05.600 No, really, it does make you look at things slightly differently, right, from that perspective. 695 00:53:06.640 --> 00:53:10.321 And there's probably a few areas there that, looking back, 696 00:53:13.780 --> 00:53:17.303 you've got to let go on certain things. 697 00:53:17.803 --> 00:53:23.988 So yeah, I've taken a couple of things away and probably look at things slightly differently, right? 698 00:53:24.088 --> 00:53:29.252 Just making sure that delegation, I think, is one of the things that we were talking about there. 699 00:53:29.312 --> 00:53:30.653 And do you need to be 700 00:53:31.856 --> 00:53:35.058 try not to be so emotionally involved. 701 00:53:35.619 --> 00:53:39.281 And I think sometimes in leadership, it's so easy to do that. 702 00:53:39.361 --> 00:53:45.306 How do you break the difference between emotion and proper decision-making and judgment? 703 00:53:46.026 --> 00:53:57.955 And the two are so closely linked when it was your personal decision in the first place to have made a decision that everybody is now calling a mistake. 704 00:53:58.815 --> 00:54:00.897 And that is something that... 705 00:54:02.028 --> 00:54:10.735 I don't know if it's human nature that that will always happen, but I've got to find a way of sort of breaking that mould. 706 00:54:10.775 --> 00:54:12.377 I think it's a fantastic reflection. 707 00:54:12.397 --> 00:54:13.798 I think it's one for everyone. 708 00:54:14.178 --> 00:54:15.159 I think it is human nature. 709 00:54:15.820 --> 00:54:20.764 You know, like just receiving feedback full stop that is constructive, that is developmental. 710 00:54:21.404 --> 00:54:27.490 I think the first bit in everyone's mindset, no matter how good they are at receiving feedback and how growth mindset they are, 711 00:54:28.190 --> 00:54:32.593 to go, ouch, like that, that, that grates a bit. 712 00:54:32.633 --> 00:54:36.475 And then you can put your training into practice and go like, like help me understand more about that. 713 00:54:36.555 --> 00:54:38.857 But look, I've loved having you on the show. 714 00:54:38.937 --> 00:54:40.718 I think, I think it's been a fantastic episode. 715 00:54:40.878 --> 00:54:42.379 Thank you for sharing so much. 716 00:54:43.119 --> 00:54:45.360 And yeah, look forward to maybe having you on again. 717 00:54:45.701 --> 00:54:46.301 Excellent, Ben. 718 00:54:46.561 --> 00:54:54.386 And thanks again for allowing me to get some insights that I probably wouldn't have had before coming on the, on the podcast. 719 00:54:54.826 --> 00:54:55.186 No worries. 720 00:54:55.787 --> 00:54:55.987 Thanks. 721 00:55:13.571 --> 00:55:13.591 .