התמלול המלא של Eddie Eccker found his calling.

gaps here. Okay. So I'm sorry that you've got the gap. That's the gap. My bad. I just need you to live in that tension. So Eddie is a a co founder. Co yep. So I I co founded Voyages Counseling in Colorado. we currently have five locations looking to slim it down to three. As weird as that sounds. but we do have a number of locations. We employ a number of people. We just launched in August of twenty twenty five our neurofeedback program in Lone Tree. And that is really going well. It's making a lot of differences where people get stuck in therapy or where sir therapy's kind of too slow. This helps people get a little bit more unstuck and kind of speeds up the process, which is super cool. Yeah. so we started that Just shy of fifteen years. So I think September it'll be fifteen years we started this business. Yeah. with a guy I actually went to graduate school in California with. He happened to move out here and our paths crossed again. and and we started it. Yeah. Okay. I love Neuro. I think Neuro is like the most amazing therapy. It is awesome. I I did it when I was down at Honey Lake and Right. I wish I could have like done it a little bit differently. I wish I could have done it separate from medicine changes that they were doing there. Yeah. So that I could kind of see like to what degree medicine was helping me, to what degree Neuro was helping me. But I think Neuro is incredible. Now like people watching listening probably are like, some people know, other people are like, I don't know what you're talking about. Some hibbity dibity. Yeah. no, it's it's actually really simple in in that it is based out of what would it be, like a classical conditioning, like Pavlovian conditioning. and so it's very behavioral based and it works through kind of mad science in some sense. We're reading brainwave activity and we're training the brain while watching a TV or listening to a sound or something to that effect, music, whatever. And you learn actually to control these devices, the television or the audio or both. through your brainwave activity. So essentially the base form of it is it's brain training and it trains things that are either over functioning, it trains them down in certain regions of the brain, or it trains them up in certain regions of the brain, which is super cool. And that's kind of the base understanding of it. We're giving you a stimulus, we're training the brain, and we can reduce anxiety, we can increase focus. one of the things for me, I did it like God, how many years ago? I was at Biola. so this is like twenty twenty two maybe. and I was about to get fired from a job because I that's that's a cool thing to put on the podcast. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So so I was in RA at Biola and and and I had we had the same meeting every week. Yeah. And I forgot to go repeatedly. gosh. It was at the same time, it was at the same location, very routine, which works for somebody like me with A D D, but I couldn't remember. I just get distracted by other things. Yeah. and so we my my boss at the time sat me aside and said, Hey, look, you need to figure this out. Like we're gonna fire you if you don't start showing up to meetings. Wow. And so I didn't know what to do. I went to the counseling center over at Rosemead School Psychology and I'm like, Hey, look, they wanna fire me. I can't remember to show up meetings, what's going on? And so I got the discount of getting all the testing and everything like that. And he's like, Yeah, you definitely have some raging A D D Wow And so he prescribed for me neurofeedback. And at the time it was very rudimentary. the technology's been around for a long time, maybe since the eighties. Yeah. but but in the early 2000s, late 90s, it was still very rudimentary. And I started doing that and it actually made a big difference for me. So like the example I use when I talk to people about it is when I would be in like a lecture hall or something like that, I would Just zone out. I would completely check out. I'd like float away in my mind. I'd be on the moon. And then when I started doing neurofeedback, it actually helped kind of reveal to me that I was floating away. So I had that sort of meta awareness of, I'm checking out and it gave me then the ability to then check back in because I now knew it. Yeah. Before I would just wake up at the end of class, like I had no idea what was going on. I would just wake up like, class is over, what class is this? I didn't even know where was at. Holy cow. Yeah, it was so bad. And that was part of the reason why I almost got fired as an RA because I just kept checking out. Yeah, sure, sure. So unaware of what was going on. So nerve feedback and the you know, almost getting fired was actually life changing for me because it allowed me to actually improve my academic pursuits. Yeah, significantly. So you didn't get fired? I did not get fired. I probably was not the best fit though for the job. Okay. And this was an RA job. So like it's not that big of a deal. Yeah. Yeah. That's fine. Yeah, but I still probably wasn't the best. In fact, they actually didn't hire me for the job. and that summer they didn't hire me. They called me and they hired somebody else. They they and that person didn't want to do it. They bailed, so I was like a a second stringer. Yeah. And so then they called me and I was actually a s I was actually a camp counselor up in Washington State. Okay. And so then they they hit me up and said, Hey, you wanna do this? I'm like, Absolutely. And so I drove from nine AM to four AM. The next day straight from from Silverdale, Washington to LA. Holy cow. Yeah, nonstop. I mean you were headed there anyways, but you had to get there faster. Yeah, to get there much faster. that was kind of a weird story too. I when I got to the school, it was four AM, nobody was there, no students on campus. So I just found an open window on a dorm room and I just let myself in. You broke into school. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And and then I

I slept. So the whole the whole drive I know I'm tangenting quite a bit, but the whole drive down from this from Silverdale, I was eating Tim's Cascade Jalapeno chips. That sounds awful. I was eating fast food. Yeah. I was drinking Dr. Pepper and energy drinks. Yeah. The whole way. I think I had a little bit of water on the drive. I was an idiot. Yeah. And hence I probably wasn't the best choice for the RA job. And so I'm driving down and by the time I got there, right, it's four thirty in the morning. I'm listening to metal the whole time to keep myself awake. And so I'm kinda strung out on caffeine. Yeah. And I go to sleep in this dorm room that I opened up and I still had my sleeping bag from the camp. Okay. So I still had all my stuff, but I I get in there, I sleep. And I slept shaking and shivering in a cold sweat. Basically detoxing from caffeine. my gosh. Yeah. That sounds like an expectation gap, Eddie. Have you worked through that? I love it. yeah, that was so dumb. Yeah. So I sorta want to get us back to neurofeedback, but I love that story. I can't imagine how many bathroom breaks you took coming down. So I had no shame. The side of the road was very available to me. Yeah. Is it possible that you are the the therapist with the smallest bladder? It's possible. Yeah. All right. No no further questions. Okay. Yeah, fair enough. All right. I could talk about that. Personal jokes. I'm so sorry. So all right. So neural feedback when so at Tiller we we do something different than counseling, although it feels like it, right? As a coach, I am more available than you are to 100%. really walk with people, you know, like I can go out to breakfast or dinner with a guy that I coach. Like I can like really get personal into their lives. I can help them move. I can do a lot of things to be in their lives. A counselor has less of that ava ability or availability, of course. Right. but so one of the things that I do often is like guys that I coach or couples that I coach. Like, hey, it feels like maybe you could use more. More than what I have to offer. Now I'm not firing you, but I I want to like build a team. And so I will often refer people to a counselor. Often it's you. Okay. I've got a few people seeing you, which is awesome. we never talk about deny anything. Okay. Yeah. That's always the standard line and I love that. We never talk about that. If you're watching that and and are worried about that, right. Eddie is incredibly professional. But you know, sometimes it's like, hey, what about a psychiatrist? What about, you know, a place like Honey Lake? You know, I I will refer out, and I've been referring a couple people towards neurofeedback. now your facility is newer, and I don't know if I've referred anyone to yours yet. But when I tell people about what neurofeedback is, I'm gonna tell you my depiction and you're gonna tell me where I'm Okay. Okay. Because I'm certain I'm wrong to some degree. Okay. So I'll judge harsh. I say it like this. So we all have neuropathways that are established in our brains. Right. And often those neuropathways are established with some false identity. Things that we believe about ourselves. That, you know, when we hear things, when we like, you know, perceive things, we think it through this neuropathway that has this false identity kind of littered in it. So for me, the longest time, my false identity was that I'm an incapable person. Like I'm being very honest here. I am an incapable person and that's like totally how I have felt for just about the majority of my life. You know? People would say like really benign things to me, like, today I'm wearing Memphis grizzly shorts. MBA shorts are my love language. And so That's how I choose to dress every day. And so someone might come up and be like, Memphis Grizzlies, huh? And the old me would like take that information, think it through my neural pathway that has this incapable thought in it, and be like, my gosh. gosh, like what an idiot. Like this guy's totally right to call me out. Like, I'm incapable of making a good decision. I'm not even a Memphis Grizzly fan. Like what a terrible decision. These shorts don't even really match well. Or like I would just start going down this line of like, what an incapable person. And they're just like nice shorts, bro, right? Right. So neurofeedback was a way to create new neuropathways that maybe weren't as or aren't as affected by that false identity. And then just technically, the other thing I describe is like we have brain waves that are just kind of all over the place. And so what they do, they put this like EEG cap on your head. Yeah, so that's for the brain map. Okay. Yeah. Well, I feel like I had it every phase of neurofeedback. Okay. And maybe they did it wrong. I don't know. Maybe you do it wrong. I doubt it. I doubt You're the constant professional, yes. so like they would you know Get the these brain waves going all over the place. Right. And what they're trying to do is lock your brain waves within a threshold. Correct. And when you go outside of the threshold, the feedback, it could be a video, it could be a video game, it could be music. Right, right. for me, there's a debate between eyes open and eyes closed that like maybe I'll get into here in a second. but the feedback says, hey, you're you're doing it right. Yeah. Okay. You're l you're keeping your brain waves within the threshold and then every time you go in they try to narrow the threshold to like train your brain more, create these new neuropathways and win at life. Right? Like is that ba I mean in in basic form, yes. Okay, good. I would say one caveat. So it's not it's not so much about one's thought life per se. Like if I'm if I'm very insecure. Which I can relate to that story too. If I'm if I'm very insecure, it's not really training my insecurity, it's training the underlying anxiety in the brain. So when you do the QEEG, that's your brain map, you're gonna identify areas of the brain

that are, let's just say, anxiety. You're gonna see very red areas of the brain, a lot of electrical activity going on there. Amplitude. Amplitude, all the language. Yeah. And when we identify those over functioning areas like anxiety, which is gonna lead to all those kind of looping thoughts, self-deprecating thoughts, that's that's where a lot of that's gonna come from is the anxiety. It's kind of paired like the anxious brain is sort of paired with narratives about ourselves. And this is where the balance of coaching or therapy with neurofeedback actually has a great interplay. Is that the the neurofeedback's gonna adjust the anxious brain and calm that down. Yeah. Whereas the coaching or therapy is gonna deal with the narratives and belief systems. Okay. So in combination, it's it's quite a dynamic duo. Yeah, absolutely. In combination. so yes, I mean most of what you said there is pretty dead on as far as neurofeedback goes, but the caveat would be it's not so much addressing the the narrative identity, it's more addressing the the literal brain functioning. Yeah. That's that's sort of supporting that narrative identity. Okay. Well you're wrong, but I I appreciate you trying. I did my best. No, you're probably right, honestly. Like that makes a lot of sense. Just my thought process is that if you are creating new neural pathways, those are fresh. Like that you don't you don't have litter along that pathway, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's that's pretty true. Is that fair? That's fair. Okay. I compare neurofeedback and and I I actually compare it a lot when I'm doing counseling with people too sometimes. I'll describe even being in the room with me and thinking through things differently is creating new neuropathways. Yeah. So in some real sense, that's kind of a natural version of like a neurofeedback. Yeah. Because I'm the feedback loop. Like I'm giving the feedback to that process. Yeah. All right, let's get into the eyes open versus eyes closed debate. Now I'm saying it that way and I don't actually know that anyone cares or things. But I feel like I'm bringing some validity to the conversation here. Okay. Now I don't think we've ever talked about this, but I am a incredible eyes closed evangelist. Like I'm an evangelist for Christ and for eyes closed neurofeedback. That that those are the two things I'm about. That's great. It makes tons of sense. Yeah, no, totally, right? So Why I love eyes closed, like I that that's what we just did in my neurofeedback setting. I they maybe gave me a choice and I was like, Well, what's better? And she suggested eyes closed. I didn't know what I was doing, right? And I didn't and she didn't give any direction on like what you're supposed to do. She's like, I don't wanna tell you what to do, but like you can pray, you can meditate, you can visualize, just kind of try th some things in your head, like focusing in different ways. To see how you get the feedback. So when your eyes are closed, I think

there's probably no other options for feedback outside of music. Right. Absolutely. So maybe electro shock could be a thing. But I mean we're working on getting cattle prods attached to our neurofeedback so that way if they're outside of the threshold, they just get zapped. Yeah. That feels a little unethical, but I'm sure you're gonna work that out. I'm sure it's fine. Yeah, okay. That's so good. But like in the eyes closed, I found this thing that works for me. Okay. And I'm not gonna probably fully depict it right now because like it's probably too big and too boring for people. But I found this thing that I call like prayerful meditation. Okay. There's this thing that I used to do when I was a kid. All right. This is really like weird and vulnerable, but like I used to when I was like upset or like Off kilter, I would like rub my eyes. And I would love to do that. Cause have you ever like rubbed your eyes? Yeah so much that you get like this, yeah, the static, the yeah, the colors, the shapes, and it just feels very mystical. When I was a kid, I would love doing that because I felt like I was being transported maybe to heaven. Like if I could just do that hard enough, yeah, that I maybe could see God. Now I know that that's weird, okay, but I was a kid, don't judge me. Well, I mean your parents were drug dealers, right? So they were giving you a lot of acid or something. Is that what it was? No, that is not factual. Okay. they were a lot of things, Eddie. But not that. Not drug dealers. Okay. So so I found this thing that like somehow I was able to lock in and get that same sensation without rubbing my eyes. Okay. That's great. And when I s found that thing, You know, the girl that was running it was like that, whatever you're doing, do that, because I was getting a lot of music. Like Perfect. I was locked into the threshold. And so what I love about that is, you know, like I I just did that every time. You know, I've got reports before, mid and after, and it's like clearly showing improvement of amplitude and coherence and words that I have no idea what they mean, but it looks cool and pretty on a graph, right? It's so pretty. It's so pretty. Okay. That's what we're going for. That it's absolutely paramount prettiness. So like, but why I love eyes closed is I could literally sit here and close my eyes. And just bring it back. Me a moment. It's coming. Okay, there it is. Like for real, I'm seeing that same thing happening. Like it like it takes me sometimes a minute to get there, but it's something that I can just do. That's awesome. Any time of the day, every day. And I don't get the feedback, but perhaps I'm doing something very therapeutic. I mean it's therapeutic in that it's comforting me, it's calming me, whatever. But maybe maybe I'm creating new neural pathways. Is it possible? Well you're you're you're tr what what is it? So when when we do neurofeedback we when you mentioned the Q E E G. That's a full like cap that goes on the brain. It measures everything going on. That's how we get all of our reports and assessments of what's really happening. When we when we do neurofeedback, the the protocol sessions, we do a specific node that we place on the on the head, on the scalp with like a conductive gel. And then we train only that region. We train that region usually I don't know if we're doing to be honest with you, I don't know if we're doing a lot of eyes closed. We are doing a lot of eyes open though, because most of it's feedback that way. But the premise is always the same and probably what you're learn what you've learned to do is actually control that specific region of the brain. Yeah. And adjust its functioning, which is what you're learning in neurofeedback is how to control a specific region. Sure. Which is really crazy. It is. And you can then you can control specific regions of the brain. Consequently, when you do that, you will likely create new neuropathways, especially if you're doing that. like let's say it's in an anxiety provoking situation. Yeah. And then you control that region even on your own. Well, you're now creating new associations and new neuropathways in that new anxiety provoking situation, which is super cool. Yeah. So it is super cool. So did I win the debate? Yeah, I mean, I'm totally out. I guess Fokea. I mean, Eyes Open is cool. I had her name was Sessie, I believe, and she was really cool and and we kind of became friends during the twelve something sessions. Yeah. I think I did. And on my last day I was like, Hey, could could I try Eyes Open? Right. Like I just wanna know what that's like, you know, maybe that would help me like depict it to people that I might refer it to or whatever. And sure. and so for them they had this video game. And it looked really cool. It was like Tony Hawk's skateboarding or something. And like you know, when you were locked into the threshold, Tony would get on the skateboard and do tricks and ollies and like yeah, like hit a half pipe or something. It was like, okay, this this is awesome. Yeah. But then when you were outside of the threshold, the feedback would stop. Tony would get off the skateboard and just tap his foot and wait for you. It actually gave me a lot of anxiety. I'm like, please, Tony, get I wanna I wanna see you skate. Like it was the crazy. That's really interesting. So then when you went eyes closed, it didn't it didn't impede your process. It did not. Interesting. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. So I I think there's other ways of eyes open that are less jarring like that. But You're you're you're right though. There we're we're noticing that with some of the people that we work with that certain processes like the eyes open, but like maybe watching a movie and controlling the dimness of the screen or the volume of the movie is creating some kind of anxiety. So we're actually going to be getting the games to see if maybe that has a different effect. And then don't even waste the money.

Don't waste the money. Just do eyes closed, Jim's right. Yes, dude, I settled the d the debate. Voyages, neurofeedback only does eyes closed. Sorry guy, if you want eyes open, we ain't doing that. No, it's done. Jim's right. Yeah. He's our he's now our advisor. Am I on the board? Suddenly we and we have one now because you're on it. Okay. We didn't have one. This is a board meeting. Welcome to the Welcome to the Voyage Counseling board meeting. This is Jim. these are the minutes from the last meeting. There are no minutes, there was no meeting. I love it when you play those scenarios out. It's my favorite. just quick check in. Do you need to go to the bathroom? No, dude. I'm I swiggle. Okay, good. Yeah. We're doing great. Yeah, we're doing great. All right. If the ADD the body still moves, you know. Yeah, I love that. Just do whatever you need to. Yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna do whatever I want. Okay. So you feeling comfortable so far? Are we good? We're good. Okay. I haven't heard much NPR voice out of you. Yeah, you're you got me out of it. Okay, that's good. Yeah, yeah. Okay, let's do a plug real quick while I'm on that. Well, I mean we've we've plugged Voyages Counseling. Yeah. Is there an N PR thing that I poked at earlier that you'd like to plug? I also do the Voyage cast. The Voyage Cast. That sounds interesting. It's an extension of Voyages Counseling. It's where we provide help beyond the office. Ooh, I know. I can't even get into NPR mode. You just go into a dip right into it. Thank you, Eddie. That's really great. You're welcome. Okay, so So in the in in the Voyage cast we do like or I do topical episodes on therapy-related things. and then Tons of relationship stuff is what a a lot of my focus is on. and then we do interviews of different people. And it's interesting because it's mostly interviews of people that have just reached out to me over the years. Yeah. Yeah. So in the beginning we we did find other people that re that we reached out to. It was a lot larger. We had more kind of host people in it, but it's evolved, people left, now it's just me running the show, just like you. Yeah. Here we go. Yeah. how how did my episode when you had me on, how did it do? With ratings, Eddie. He's trying to shame me. Did it do well? It was the it was the highest rated show we've had. Wow. Yeah. Huh. Having a hard time believing that. That's weird. It must be some kind of delusion of yours. entering into. Eddie has famously invited me onto the podcast one thousand times without ever actually trying to have me on the podcast. Yeah. It's the A D D. I get you. Dude, it's so bad you don't even understand. When I was a kid, it it took me probably fifteen years to remember my best friend from childhood. Took took me probably that long. Well maybe not fifteen. It probably took me mm, nine years I'm thinking to to remember his birthday. Okay. And I've known I knew him since first grade, all the way through High school, a little bit into college. We're still friends today. Awesome. So I've known him my whole life, pretty much. I believe it's July twenty second. Okay. Ooh, coming up. Yep. Let's go. Yep. It could be the twenty first. I think just text him early in the week and say, Happy birthday week Yeah. That's the play there. Yeah, it's so bad. So I'm I'm a lot better than I used to be, but yeah, when it comes to dates, when it comes to like spelling words in order, like the letters getting him they all get jumbled in my head. Yeah. I just I just cannot hold on to it. So when I was a professor for a little while it was my students in the beginning would would have some concern about me in my competence because I couldn't spell words interest properly. And so Usually by the end of the class everybody figured me out and they understood that I'm not totally incompetent. But but I yeah, spelling just wasn't my jam. See it's interesting because I feel like you actually have an impeccable memory. there are things that you recall while we're in session that you're like, Hey, I feel like six years ago you told me about this thing and I'm like, Yeah, I mean that's definitely true. How what? How do you know that? Like It's a weird memory, man. Like with some things, dates, spelling words properly, certain things like that, I I am the worst. When it comes to like my clients' life and their world for whatever reason, maybe it's just that everybody's story is kind of interesting to me. it really sticks. And once I get talking to somebody, it starts kind of all coming back together. because I really don't take notes. so I have no way to reference those things it just comes back. That's amazing. Yeah. That's really cool. Which is weird because I always thought growing up that I was kind of, you know, dumb. So I never thought that, you know what I mean? Well let's transition there because you know, I kind of loosely refer to the gap cast as the most authentic corner of the internet. Yeah. Okay. and so we've only had one other episode. was Pretty authentic. Anderson and I sharing a really hard story. That's awesome. And something you know all about that we've we've talked about extensively for a while here. So I I I wanna ask about your personal expectation gap experience. Now I know you might need to keep something shrouded, just for professional dignity or something. but I'm gonna mostly keep my clothes on for. That's actually helpful. So I'll keep it very shrouded. For the record, the gap cast is no shirt, no shoes, no service. So yeah, thank you. So perfect. Yeah, yeah. Great. So I'll be very authentic for you. Thank you. But i if if you could Let's go. That's great. That's great. Okay. So w I know that you really have struggled with ADD and like I probably have like dyslexia. I probably have dysgraphia, which is a type of difficulty in ex expressing one's thought in like written form. Yeah. Or organizing that thought. And and I've talked to you before about my difficulties in writing even and why I need

certain tools because I just struggle to get those thoughts out. but yeah, like i in school, I mean, I remember all the way back to even first grade where my parents pled with the school board to let me move on. And then they did in second grade to let me move on. Because I d I did nothing. I mean, when I say nothing, I mean I literally showed up in the class. I didn't even know it was happening. Wow. I did literally nothing. but I didn't underst I I guess looking back, like I didn't I didn't understand what was really happening. Like none of it made any sense to me. I couldn't I couldn't grasp the concepts. And I think in like second grade they had me in this weird experimental like immersion class anyways, where it was like half the class was taught in Spanish. So I just sat with my buddy Marcos under the piano and he taught me bad words in Spanish. So that's all we did in Spanish class. Nice. Good job, Marcos. Dude, he was the best. Yeah. He was awesome. He was a total cowboy too, which is crazy. Like he could do the roping and everything and like all the tricks. Super cool, dude. Wow, fascinating. Yeah, yeah. Fascinating. Yeah, no caps there. No gaps there. So so moving on though, like I I mean I I I f did fairly nothing. Like I I pretty much did nothing in in school, even through high school. I did have a lot of tutoring. but because I struggled so much, because I failed classes so often or or almost failed classes often, I really did believe that I was stupid. I believed that I was slow, I believe that I was less than such that I was even and this is this was like a hard one, but eventually I kind of came to own it. but when I was a kid in high school, everybody kinda knew. Like it wasn't lost on people when I'm in class and I'm like, Hey, I don't know what's going on, raising my hand, like what did you say? And everybody's like, Eddie, come on, like pay atten you know what I mean? So even the other students, even my friends, everybody knew that like I was not an academic type. Yeah. And so I had this nickname because my name's Eddie was special Ed. gosh. no. And that that could have gone sideways, but I kind of knew too. Like I knew that this wasn't my jam. And so I I even got like a handicapped shirt with a symbol on it. And I just wore that. I just owned it. I just owned it. And it was my it was my way to deal with it. Yeah. You know, and and not kind of beat myself up too much. Because I I could not figure out how people were understanding what was going on in in a classroom. I could not figure out how somebody could read a book and understand or remember anything. Like I could read the same book. It might take me longer, but I could read it and have no idea the words I read. But I read all of the words, but none of it stuck. Yeah. at the time, this is in the nineties, I mean, you know, Sparks Notes, I think, or Cliff Notes were popular back then. that saved me a little bit. But it wasn't really until I got into college that things started shifting and turning around for me. but to make it through my academic life in high school, I mean I lied, stole, cheated my way through every step of the way. Wow. I was an incredible manipulator with s with teachers, and I was very clever at at cheating. I won't say how I did it 'cause I don't want to give anybody tips. I assumed it was statute of limitations. You're still kind of within it or something. No, no, no. Outside of that, I I'm pretty sure it's been a long time. so but but I just don't want you know, I don't want to give anybody ideas on like how to cheat really well because I'm so good at it. And I I'll get into that in a minute. But on on how that actually benefited me later. more than just making it through high school, which I wasn't supposed to make through. I I wasn't supposed to graduate. I had a teacher that that liked me. And gave me the D instead of the F that I deserved, so I could just graduate. Wow. And I'm pretty sure he had the kind of thought of like, you know, this guy's not this isn't for him. Like we're just gonna move him on. Was there just you know. Was there a thought that maybe he just didn't want you back next year? Didn't want to deal with No, like I was I was always like I I wasn't a troublemaker. Yeah, no, I didn't So I was a guy. Of course you were. No, I wasn't inter I mean, like I I s I would say there are certain moments where I created some c some chaos and trouble, but you know, I was a teenager. so I I made it out of high school and then the next step was for me to go to like a community college. No one was gonna look at me academically. There was no chance. And I had no real sense of what I was gonna do, to be honest with you. I mean, I kinda had a sense that maybe counseling was a was a career path for me. because I had no other skills. Like I was really deeply insecure. I had no I didn't know I was good at anything other than h hanging out with people. So now I do that for a living. Professional professional hangout or person, you know. So I I basically chose that as a path. but you know when you look at my SATs and you looked at all the placement testing scores, you know, I basically spelled my name right. So when I started college, I had to literally start from the very beginning. So I started in grammar school all over again when I went to community college. Now you're not talking like Billy Madison. You didn't have two weeks and No, I didn't I didn't actually go to like an elementary school. Yeah, good. Yeah, 'cause that would have been super weird. and you know, I was an adult, so that would have been yeah. Yeah. So but they had classes for people like me at this at this school and fortunately I wasn't and surprisingly I wasn't the only one in the class. So that was a little bit affirming that I wasn't the only idiot. okay. And then the only class lower than mine in as English goes was a was English as a second language. So people who literally didn't know how speak English. Wow. That

was the only class lower than mine. So I really started when I say I started from the beginning, I started from like elementary school and I had to redo everything for those first two years of college. So consequently I took every summer class, every winter course, everything just so I could catch up. and then I went to I transferred over to Viola University, which was crazy because I didn't choose any other college. I didn't I didn't actually I was so ignorant about the process. I didn't know you should choose multiple schools. Yeah. So I just picked one and I applied and I got in. and I got in on academic probation and I'm pretty sure maybe some of the reason why they let me in was because I was a male and they needed more males at the school. That was my suspicion. Beautiful. I I'll take it. I don't care. Yeah, all means possible. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I went there and Things started connecting a little bit more for me academically. but the juxtaposition of people who were highly intelligent, very academically savvy. I mean, you know, even today we have some of the world's greatest philosophers who teach, at least in an adjunct position, yeah at that school, which is crazy to think about. And I'm like, why am I here? And so it was a very difficult program. I mean, I I graduated with like a two point eight five in my undergrad. and so then my master's program, I did the same thing. Again, I was super ignorant. I didn't know you were supposed to apply to multiple programs. I just applied to the one that I thought might take me, which is one that didn't require entrance exams. Interesting. Yeah, because there was no way. If there was an entrance exam, I was not gonna you know what I mean? Of course. I was not I don't I didn't do well on tests. I'm like a deer in headlights with tests. and so then I got into that school and then they they brought me in on academic probation, they liked the interview with me. and then when I got there in my master's program, I'm like, my gosh, this is it. Like this is this is what I'm meant to do. Like everything came to life for me. You know, it all started making sense. Things started clicking for me. and I I did really well there. I mean, for me, I've never had like a 4.0, you know, kind of average in my life. even there, but I had like a 3.75 when I graduated. Dang. but the hardest, the weirdest part for me, talking about like identity and expectations and like how we make it through this world, like When I I I'll never forget this. I'm sitting there on graduation day and I'm thinking to myself, like, let's just move this thing along because I did not want them to take my diploma from me. Because I thought that maybe like I was gonna get found out or something. Like I still couldn't believe that I earned this. Even though it was making sense for me, even though I was I was learning by all accounts, I still didn't believe that I deserved this. And so I was wanting it just to end. Like let's just move this thing on, like get it done. Cause I couldn't believe it. and so, you know, time goes on and I start working professionally. actually I started working professionally even before I was in graduate school, doing like monitor vegation and stuff like that. But I started working in a counseling center in a psychiatric hospital and I started feeling it out and it it felt more kind of natural and normal to me. I don't think I still trusted myself. intellectually, actually until I started this business, Voyages Counseling. so just shy of 15 years ago, I remember sitting in sessions trying to be the therapist. so if anybody's ever been in a therapy session, there's that kind of common motif of how a therapist sort of should act or typically behaves. and none of that made sense to me. so I couldn't do it. And I was really insecure. I'm like, maybe this isn't for me. You know? And I started this business with Matt and I'm like, what what am I doing? You know, maybe I'll just and for a while in my life I worked at Starbucks. I'm like, maybe I'll just go back to Starbucks and you know, I'll just work my way up into corporate or something like that. And I just couldn't I still couldn't quite believe that I was competent, capable, and that this was for me. and so one day I s I basically said, like, I've got nothing to lose. I have very little clients at this point in my life. I've been fired by people because probably because I was too inauthentic in the room, to be honest. and so I basically said, Forget it. I'm just gonna be Eddie and we're gonna see what happens. Wow. I'm rolling the dice. Yeah. You know? and I did. And my caseload started growing. People started learning about me. I started getting referrals. Yeah. You know, I started doing better than I'd ever done in my life. And then I started believing, well, maybe I actually have something to offer. Sure, yeah. but it took me forever to believe and undo that kind of special ed sort of mentality of like, you know, you're just not capable. Yeah. and so as time's gone by, now I'm in this field, what, nearly twenty years, in various different capacities. And and and I was even a professor for a little while too, which was mind blowing to me. That's crazy. That was nuts. I remember, I'll never forget that too. I'm sitting I in, you know, if anybody's ever gotten anxious and got the runs, you know, I'm in that like position right before a four hour class that I gotta teach. no. On the integration of psychology and theology, which I love the topic, and I learned about it a lot in Biola, and I studied and I prepared and I'm like super stoked about this class. It's definitely my jam. I love the topic. So I'm sitting there getting ready to teach this class and I'm like, man, my stomach is turning. And so I go into the bathroom and, you know, to save everybody, you know, a little bit. I won't go into the details, but it was rough. And so I'm sitting there on my phone texting my closest friends who knew me growing

up. They knew me in high school. They knew who I was back then. And I'm like, guys, you're not gonna believe this. I'm about to teach a class at a university. Yeah. And they're like, Who is this? New phone, who dis I know, right? They didn't know who this was. You know, and I was just as shocked as they were. And so then I start teaching the class and I'm insecure as can be 'cause I can't spell and I can't figure out how to, you know, but I know the topic well and I know it well enough to teach it, I think. And so then it was a four hour class that I taught. There was four hour night classes through Colorado Christian University. And you know, I'm teaching this class and I just could not believe that I'm teaching this class. It made no sense to me. This acl academic delinquent, literally in a lot of ways, is now teaching at a university. and what's interesting though, like how all things kind of come together, my ability to, let's say, cheat my way through school in my high school years, taught me how to do it well. Mm. So I wouldn't be caught. Yeah. Well, in college, even at Christian universities People still plagiarize and she you caught a lot of punks, didn't you? my gosh, you cannot play the player. I was a master. And this is before you had you know, like we were just starting to get in the universities, these AI programs or whatever that could kind of run the run the paper through the internet. I didn't need it. I could just read it and I knew exactly what they were doing. You know. It was too easy for me. So did you throw the hammer down? yeah, so bad. man. I crushed him. Dude, I bet you some of your teachers gave you grace. They knew. I don't think they ever read my papers. I'd put weird stuff in my papers just to see if they would. I'd put I'd put like monkey raft just like randomly in a sentence, you know, just to see if they would catch it. Classic. Because I had the sense, like I always like I don't know, maybe I always had the sense of like reading people, but like I I kind of had a sense that my My teachers in high school weren't reading my papers. Yeah. And so I would just put random stuff in there. Yeah. You know, just to see what they were see if they were reading it. You know, and I'd tell my buddy, I'm like, hey, look what I put in there. Yeah. And I'm like, let's see if they catch it. That's unreal. And they never did. I love that so much. So I was testing the teachers to see what they were see if they were paying attention because then it then I could just do anything I wanted. Yeah. If they weren't paying attention, I could just turn it in. Did you just give away a way to choose? I did, I Is that my bad. Yeah, you i is that a red herring? What is that? You're throwing something in there to test. I don't know what that would be called. I don't I don't know. Just test I actually don't know what a red herring is for the record. Yeah, I think it's like a false thing. We'd have to look that up. Yeah. Do you want to look it No. No. So I'm so I'm in college and I'm like grading these papers and these students are just the worst at cheating. yeah. You know? Like they're not even trying, you know, at cheating. Like if you're gonna cheat, like Put some effort into it. You know what I mean? Like, don't cheat, right? But like do the work, learn. But like it, I don't know, because of my past, I was really, really good at finding it. And I would just crush their papers. Wow. And I would even write like, You got this from, you got this from. These don't connect. If you had just quoted this or and cited it, I would not have marked you down. And then I would write things like fifty percent of your paper are direct quotes from. And then I would give them the sites for their thing. There was no way to dispute it. Wow. Yeah, I was like quite the investigator. Yeah. You know. But I think part of me too is part of the reason why I like counseling, is I like the puzzle. And so like when they presented me a bad paper or whatever, it was a puzzle for me to read and to figure it out. and so yeah. And is that why I'm your favorite client? Yeah, mostly. Okay. Mostly that's it. Yeah. Because you're like the hardest puzzle on the plane to figure out. I mean, we'd be puzzling so hard over here. So it's crazy. I love that we can have fun like that. Yeah. well and that that actually brings up the thought too. Like that's one of my like when I made that shift in counseling is I I decided I'm just gonna be myself and part of that's I'm silly. Yeah and I'm weird and I say some crazy things sometimes in our sessions and in all of my sessions. And You know, I've definitely been fired by people for being myself. Yeah. which is which was actually really hard from an insecurity standpoint. Yeah. Of course. and and I thought maybe I was a bad person or doing something wrong. And I I just realized over time that, you know, really none of that matters. I'm just not gonna be everybody's brand. Yeah, sure. And that's perfectly reasonable. You know, I can't be. but yeah. Well, I can resonate with that. I mean I I've told you stories about things that I have done in coaching and I'm very animated. I am trying to be fully myself. I mean it's part of the the pledge of authenticity. Right. Right. Like I'm asking people to be authentic authentic and I'm gonna not ask them to do something I'm not willing to do. So you know, I yeah. Yeah, I'm weird. Like I'm gonna be kinda weird. And and I I love that. And that's that's exactly my consideration as well. I don't I don't know that I did consider that as much when I first started just kind of letting Eddie out of the box. but it did play out such that I am modeling in real time like what it means to be just a real person. Sure. You know, we're all just human beings in these rooms and it doesn't have to be weird. Like we can have fun, we can laugh at the insanity of life. You know, so much of the world is crazy and funny and we need to find that. Yeah. Yeah. I love that.

So Eddie, how how How did you overcome such a sizable expectation gap? Because I mean it it seems like to me it affected every part of your life and just about, yeah. Yeah. And it threatened your future. And I mean, gosh, man. So I think you know, my my wife, to be honest with you, always saw the potential in me. she saw it. She saw what I couldn't. And I think she was always a Just a steadfast figure in pushing me. Whenever I would doubt myself, she would be such a good encourager. I always thought she would have been a great therapist because she was always so very intuitive and thoughtful and aware. And so she was a very good encourager. But the other thing, I think, you know, just what would it be? Like slowly chipping away at the realities, like pushing forward anyways, and slowly chipping away at those beliefs by just doing something. So, you know, like. Believing that I'm an academic delinquent, but yet teaching at a university. In fact, I taught at two universities. and and just by the very nature of doing the job taught me that maybe I know something that they don't. Yeah. Maybe I have value to bring. And one of the things I realized when especially when I was teaching too, that I the value that I brought is I brought real life to the room. You know, when you when I let Eddie out of the box, so to speak, I I brought my real self and I just did that to teaching as well. Yeah. and I think that made a difference because I started seeing myself differently. and I got reasonably good reviews from my students. I had a few that were not so happy with me, but you know, like like I said, I'm not everybody's brand. but mostly I got good reviews from my students. I got a decent review from one of my from one of the deans who was reviewing my classes, making sure I was a competent professor. I got good reviews from her. and so it it reinforced what I didn't know actually. It reinforced that I was competent and capable of this. Like I really didn't know that I could do this. So I was just doing and winging it. kind of hoping that I could make it through, but then people were telling me that you're doing a good job. So I assumed then that maybe the new evidence presented to me is counter to the beliefs and narratives that I had that I wasn't good enough. the new evidence is not supporting that belief anymore. doing You know, look looking at my caseload and over the years, over this last roughly fifteen years at Voyages Counseling, you know, I I get a lot of referrals. I get a lot of people coming in, I get a lot of people coming in from the community who talk about me on Facebook or talk to their friends about me. and that's that's really the the biggest honor too, is that people trust me in that space so much that they would send others to me. and so I don't take that lightly, but it's also a really big compliment that maybe I am doing something right. Maybe I am making a difference. Yeah. You know, and then over the years, unsolicitedly, I've had a

few people, maybe three over the last couple of years, reach out to me completely out of the blue. they're now living in different states. And they're just like, Hey, I just wanna let you know like you really changed my life and and you made a difference for me. And those are those are a little bit difficult, you know, for me to to hear that because The expectation for the clinician is that that's not my privilege. My my job is to go do the work. It's not my privilege to to get that feedback 'cause I'm not here for that feedback. I'm here to make a difference to the degree that I can and t and to the degree that I understand how to do it. And on occasion people have come back and told me these things and that's shocking to me, to be honest with you. even a little bit still, 'cause there are times where I still, you know, I'm I'm a very reflective person, so Even after sessions, I'll still question, you know, what I'm doing, my motivation, where I was, you know, in line, where I was maybe out of line. So I'm always kind of self anal analyzing, but it's no longer it used to be that kind of a self deprecating kind of self analysis. It's no longer that. Mainly because I've been getting good feedback. And it's like, I have a new narrative now. Yeah. That maybe I'm doing something good. But I think to your to your question of like how did you get from here to there, to be honest with you, I think I just kept moving forward. I just kept doing it. Yeah. And it and I kept getting different feedback and different feedback and different feedback. And you know, I don't know, maybe I just chose right to. Yeah. because there was really no other there was no other academic option for me. I mean I that feels like you're overstating it, but I understand. At the time at the time when I was in it, like I didn't I didn't know where else to go. Yeah. You know, it was kind of this or the trades. And I already had at seventeen, I already had kind of a bad back, so I'm like Maybe that's not a good option for me. And then I was asthmatic. So I'm like, maybe the military's not gonna work. So I don't know. Yeah. So I I was, I don't know. I felt like this was and actually to go to go back in time a little bit, when I was when I was 18, I was at a camp and I was dating this girl and I was talking to her sister at this camp. And the conversation went really well. She was struggling with some things. And I'm like, hey, maybe this is what I'm supposed to do for a living. yeah. You know, it just like occurred to me to have that awareness and Yeah. I mean I kinda just put one foot in front of the next. Yeah. I mean there's a lot of things, you know, with the ADD comes interest in everything that's shiny. and so so I had a lot of interests in things, but I didn't have any belief of competence in anything other than that one moment at a camp. I'm like, well, maybe that's the right right path. Okay. I love that. Yeah. So a few things I hear you saying is like leaning into feedback and getting support. I know your wife has been a big source of support for you. And I wouldn't normally know my counselor's wife. But we have kind of a unique story. We do, yeah. So Alicia does this infusion every other week. And in our first meeting, I was telling Eddie about this therapy that she gets and he's like, where does she do it at? And I I told him and he's like, Okay, like what floor? Like do you know the place? Yeah, my wife works there and we realized right away that his wife was my wife's favorite nurse. And there was a lot of great nurses. Love all of you from back then. But like yeah, I mean that was that was wild. So she undoubtedly is great support for you. she's the best. Yeah. Yeah, she's the best. So anytime I would get anxious, overwhelmed, fearful, whatever, yeah, you know, I could go to her, I could vent, I could break down, I could go through whatever feeling. And she would just say, remember, yeah, you've gotten through this before. And she would always reframe it, clarify, and show me the error of my thoughts. Yeah. It's awesome. Eddie, that's so good because that takes a lot of courage sometimes. Men aren't historically good about that. No, we're the worst. Right. Yeah. And I I think it's a shame, you know. Like one of my premises is is if we're gonna become fully formed disciples of Christ, we have to lean into authenticity, authenticity with God. and authenticity with others, the shape of the cross suggests it. Amen. I and, you know, you're you're choosing to do it. you know, I I know that you live by a code of ethics in in counseling, but you do therapeutically share authentically in in counseling and I I just see how that has actually helped you. Yeah. you know, another concept about the expectation gap is is that You know, we experience disappointment, dissatisfaction, and distress in the middle of any gap. And those are things we just shouldn't walk alone in. So again, shout out to you for seeking that support. I mean, probably others, not just your wife, but yeah. Yeah, there was there were other like moments or hints or nods along the way, but you know, some of it was just like to be honest with you, some of it was like I d I don't know what else to do. So I guess this is where I'm going. Yeah. You know, and then I think I have a hard time saying that like my faith necessarily actually had anything to do with that right away. Actually where I want to go. Yeah. I ha I have a hard time with that because I I feel like my my engagement with God was more passive in terms of seeking out guidance in that. I think at certain points, like before we moved to Colorado and before I started this business, you know, I I heard two words from God was trust and wait. But it wasn't very specific like, hey, this is the job you should do. Yeah. You know, I feel like maybe that was spoken to me just through those different encounters and different engagements. You know, there there was actually a moment when I was at Biola where a

peer of mine, you know, we were doing like a mock therapy thing and she looks at me, she's like, Eddie, like you really need to do this for a living. You know, I'm like, okay, I guess so. Yeah. Like I didn't I didn't know what to make of that. You know, but from a faith standpoint, like, I don't know, I it j it seemed like a good path. But I don't think I heard anything specific. Yeah. If that makes sense. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think like when you share about, you know, that high school girlfriend's sister at Camp. Right, right. Like I think, I believe that the Holy Spirit put a spotlight on you did a good job there. Pay attention to that. Like that that's a fair point because I wasn't terribly self aware in a lot of a ways. So that was that was a good moment of like kind of that meta awareness of myself of like, hey, notice what you're doing right now. This is you might be good at this. Yeah. Because normally I don't notice anything like that. Yeah. Especially back then. Especially back then. Completely oblivious to what's I that's why I struggled in school. Sure. Because I just couldn't make sense of it. Yeah. But that was a moment of clarity. So that's fair. That's a good point. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. all right. I could go on and on. I'm enjoying this a ton, but at some point we need to get this to it. I know what point that should be though. Yeah, I mean probably do a five hour pod. Yeah, we just keep going. Yeah. It's fine. I'll cancel my day. I'll cancel my day. There's a lot of disappointed people that are getting emails and texts right now. no, let's go ahead and begin to wrap this up. I undoubtedly would love to have you back on at some point. Talk about maybe more specific things. I will probably have you on before you have me on. Okay. I mean that's that just happened. Yeah. Yeah, you had me on before. Well, I mean a second time. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Maybe even three times. Who knows? All right, Eddie. do you wanna play a game? Okay. All right. This isn't really a game, it's just the lightning round. Okay. It's a test. You know, I told you I'm a deer in headlights with this stuff. We're just gonna go quick. We're gonna blitz you with some things, and I need like gut reactions. I need you to Just really I'll try to be as appropriate as possible. Okay. Wow. Yes. That it might be hard for you. All right. Just quick, easy questions, no big deal. In and out or culverse. In and out. You're wrong about culvers. Unbelievable. You're terrible person. Yeah, you're just wrong. Guys, guys, in and out. I cannot say enough terrible things about culvers. I know. It's a terrible place. It's good that you said that. Yeah. You have terrible things to say about culverts. I knew you were gonna say in and out. It's not All your fault because you grew up in California. I did grow up there, yeah. So it's un sometimes unfortunate, but yeah, you know your terribleness comes naturally. Okay. But I will often tell people, like, if you like in and out, what is wrong with you? You live in a world where culverts exist. Like, come on, bro. All right, keeping this moving. Counseling or therapy? Like what language do I prefer? Yes. That's tough, dude. I actually prefer counseling, I think. Okay. Therapy feels just overly clinical. Yeah. And I'm so casual about my approach to things a lot of times that therapy feels intense or harsh. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I actually kind of assumed you'd say that, but you know, sometimes I'm like, is he my counselor? Is he my therapist? I don't know. You know? I'm not a psychologist. That I know. Because I don't have a PhD. Yeah. You know, I wanted one, but I figured out that you don't need one. So that's perfect. All right. Individual or couples. Hmm. Which do you prefer? that's a really good question. man. The lightning round never disappoints. Dude, that's hard. That's a hard that's hard. I don't I don't even know how to answer that. I I love working with couples because there's a lot of dynamics in play. It's very interesting. You get when one person says something, you get the reactions from the other. And I love that interplay. individuals though, like sometimes people are much more vulnerable to say all the thoughts they have to say instead of they have maybe some curated thoughts in couple sessions. Yeah. so that can be really interesting. but it's all I mean, yeah. I don't know. I like it. I don't know how to answer that. Okay. That's fair. All right. Does my hair make me look cool and relevant or just oddly emo? It's a little emo today. It is. It's a little emo today. when you freshly got it cut a little while ago. I'm due. Yeah, you are due. Okay. I noticed those things. Yeah, I appreciate you. All right. On a scale from one to ten, how much do you hate telehealth? That's tough. I I do kind of hate telehealth. Yeah. maybe like an eight, I hate it that much. I can't say quite a ten because there are times where it feels like that was that was good, it was useful. Yeah. Maybe maybe in the vein of usefulness it's very useful, but man, I I prefer having a person in the room. Yeah, sure. I way prefer that. Totally. It's way better. But honestly, I love like I don't have to have like the secure line thing going, right? So I just use Zoom. Yeah. And you know, it's nice in the way that like there's a lot of flexibility. Like I can coach people anywhere. Anywhere, yeah. I can be anywhere. You know, like this summer we'll take some trips and I'll be like, Hey, sorry, you're on Zoom today. Yes. Which is that's awesome. Yeah. I mean you mentioned that earlier, like the difference between therapy and and or counseling. And coaching. Coach. And there there is a real advantage to coaching because you can be involved in a way that you know, therapists can't be. there there are some, you know, my mind always goes to the ethical risks of it. there are some risks that people don't always account for in the coaching world that they should. but I I love the idea that you

can do coaching kind of from anywhere and counseling you can as well, but I think even clients to the telehealth question. I feel like clients don't like telehealth. Yeah, sure. They prefer in person. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. and you are you only licensed in Colorado or do you have a multi state deal? I used to be licensed in California too, but I realized I was never moving back. So yeah, I let that go. I didn't want to pay the money. I thought about getting licensed in Florida. I'm still kind of working on it, but just just to expand. Kind of a telehealth market. And I have clients who've moved out there that want to still see me. Sure. but that's very complicated. Yeah. and so I thought about it, but I have to rely on California to get documentation to me. Yeah, you're never getting that. Yeah, I'm probably never gonna get licensed in Florida because of California. all right, we kinda chunked up the lightning round with that that got mine. My bad. I'm so distracted. I'm new at podcasting, Eddie. I have a lot to learn. Yeah, kinda. Like I'm this is my second episode. What? Yes. You're so good at this. I'm so good. You are fantastic. I have a lot to learn still, but we're gonna get there. All right. this is the most important question I will ask you today. Okay? That's such an inappropriate response to that. Okay. Who would do better at stand up? You or me. You. I think it's you. I really do. I think it's you. That's all I needed to hear. Yeah, yeah. I I think I would freeze up. Because I I need a conversation. Yeah. To get me to going. You can just go. I I I need the conversation. Yeah. You know, like if the stand up was the conversation, maybe I could do that. but you know, who knows what's gonna come out of my mouth if I'm letting myself just rip. That's not always a good thing. Well, if you do stand up, I could be in the crowd and heckle you and we could have that conversation. I would love to be really good. I mean so much. gosh, this has been fun, Eddie. You are amazing. You really are special, but not in that way. I appreciate it. Okay. I I I'm gonna restate what I said at the beginning. You are the legend behind the man. Well thanks. Okay. I appreciate that. You've helped me in real ways, immense ways. Man, I've I got some real gaps and some real hurts and I I I have loved over the years that I could trust you with all of it. so so plug it. Like Where do people go if they are interested in not therapy but counseling with Eddie Ecker? So if they want to come in, the best approach is to go to the website voyagescounseling.com, that's V O Y A G E S counseling dot com. if you want the podcast, you can find that also on the website, as well as I have a blog on there and I have a bunch of articles, probably a hundred and thirty-five plus articles on there that I've written. I actually just put one out today. in response to a client. He had a question. So I'm like, I'll just write an article on it and then I put that on there. so tons of information on the website, Voyages Counseling dot com. the podcast is the Voyage cast. and that can be found anywhere podcast can be found. and when I do it, when I actually launch it, I'll let you know. But I am working on an a book or two. And so yeah. I'm trying to catch up to you, Jim. Man, I'm starting the process of three, so let's get there. I know, I know. But I haven't even published one and I'm already on two. Man, that is impressive. The ADD brain. Dude, it's so wild. It you don't want to be in there. It's like a bunch of cats running around. Have you ever seen the movie Inside Out? Actually, no. Someone told me the other day I'm Inside Out. But there's a scene where it shows the internal kind of world of a cat and it's just a bunch of cats like walking on this like board that controls the other cat. gosh. Yeah I mean and sometimes that's kind of the ADD brain. Like we don't have people in there. We just have cats running around. So it's a great illustration illustration. well Eddie I'm really grateful for you. Glad you could bring your at insights today. Absolutely I hope someone was encouraged by what you shared and I don't I don't I don't know how to sign these things off. I mean I guess I just turned to the camera and I'm like, hey Can we just wave? Goodbye. Thank you for coming to the Gapcast. I love you.