התמלול המלא של Compassionate Courage: Kat Schooland on Leading Through Discomfort

much from like a systems perspective, very young, um, was really looking for ways that I can be helpful, which I've learned as kind of an adult, how to handle that in ways that work better for me. 00:02:49.759 --> 00:02:51.680 But really, I became a clinician. 00:02:51.759 --> 00:02:56.879 I think some of it was for my own healing and through intergenerational trauma and trying to figure out my way. 00:02:57.120 --> 00:03:05.919 And then through clinical work, you know, realized that I I have a knack, I think, for inspiring others and I really love coming alongside and mentoring. 00:03:06.000 --> 00:03:08.479 And also I get really passionate about the things I'm interested in. 00:03:08.560 --> 00:03:14.240 And so it's really cool to build a practice, build a company that is around something that I love. 00:03:14.960 --> 00:03:16.560 Yeah, thanks for sharing that. 00:03:16.719 --> 00:03:26.719 It it sounds like this was an evolution in the the thread of leadership and systems has been something that's been throughout threading its way throughout your your life and your career. 00:03:26.960 --> 00:03:45.360 Was there any particular moment or moments where that became clearer to you where you're like, you know, I love being a clinician and now I want to also grow something and I want to be the founder of something and and and help others and do the work too? 00:03:45.759 --> 00:03:46.319 Yeah. 00:03:46.560 --> 00:03:50.879 So um, I mean, I had my kids and it made a lot of sense to work for other people. 00:03:51.039 --> 00:03:59.840 And so I was really in companies and building things honestly for other people and really kind of coming alongside other people's visions. 00:03:59.919 --> 00:04:01.039 And I love doing that. 00:04:01.120 --> 00:04:01.840 It's really fun. 00:04:02.000 --> 00:04:06.479 It's also really fun to be inspired by other people and what they're kind of learning and bringing. 00:04:06.719 --> 00:04:18.319 But I found myself, I think, a little bit lost at a certain point where it felt like, hey, I think this place is awesome, but it doesn't quite fit for my skin, you know. 00:04:18.480 --> 00:04:27.279 Um, and honestly, there was a little bit of a shift in my own life where we had to pick up and move and things had to just shift in a way in direction I didn't plan. 00:04:27.519 --> 00:04:37.839 And instead of joining someone else's vision, I made the bet that, you know, I actually really would love to see what I could possibly do and step into. 00:04:38.000 --> 00:04:41.680 So I'm still at the beginnings, I feel like, of learning how to be a leader. 00:04:41.839 --> 00:04:44.079 I think there are pieces from my childhood. 00:04:44.160 --> 00:04:50.639 I've kind of always been a leader in different aspects, but to run a company is definitely a learning curve. 00:04:50.720 --> 00:04:52.959 And I've also learned though I haven't had to do it alone. 00:04:53.120 --> 00:05:08.720 I think that my hat as a clinician has also taught me well for a lot of the roles that have served within the leadership place, both in that I really have to work on the stuff that's internal in order to show up well and to continue with the vision that I want. 00:05:09.120 --> 00:05:10.879 Yeah, I mean, that's so interesting. 00:05:11.040 --> 00:05:16.720 I, you know, I was thinking about maybe other professions that don't have that, right? 00:05:16.959 --> 00:05:26.000 Where, for instance, in the type of work I do as a lawyer, it's not that we don't get feedback. 00:05:26.079 --> 00:05:26.720 We certainly do. 00:05:26.800 --> 00:05:28.800 In fact, generally it's negative. 00:05:29.040 --> 00:05:40.639 But like when you're a clinician, when you're a therapist, you you work with a supervisor in terms of you somebody that you can connect with, a sort of mentor type person, from what I understand. 00:05:40.879 --> 00:05:46.240 And so, and you're always, like you said, you're focused on always also working through your own stuff. 00:05:46.399 --> 00:06:00.079 And I think that is all such a key part of starting to become or becoming an effective and good leader, is having that own reflection back to oneself. 00:06:00.560 --> 00:06:01.199 Where am I? 00:06:01.360 --> 00:06:02.879 What do I need to work on? 00:06:03.040 --> 00:06:04.800 And how do I show up for other people? 00:06:04.959 --> 00:06:16.240 And it isn't always what we see in other areas, whether that's law or other just general corporate businesses, where there isn't that sort of internal reflection of what am I doing? 00:06:16.399 --> 00:06:20.959 It's what is everybody else doing, and how did I make them do the things that I'd like them to do? 00:06:21.199 --> 00:06:21.600 Right. 00:06:21.839 --> 00:06:22.160 Yeah. 00:06:22.399 --> 00:06:22.720 Yeah. 00:06:23.120 --> 00:06:25.360 I think that's a bit surprising to me because I forget that. 00:06:25.519 --> 00:06:33.360 I forget that sometimes when I'm in these rooms and people were having these conversations and like a mastermind situation, or you know, bouncing ideas off. 00:06:33.439 --> 00:06:44.000 And I'm not always in rooms with clinicians, and I forget that not everybody has paused and maybe thought through a little bit more of like, okay, where am I running up against some of my own internal weaknesses? 00:06:44.079 --> 00:06:49.680 You know, I know whether that be from the ability to tolerate discomfort, like that's a big piece. 00:06:49.759 --> 00:06:56.079 I think I've learned I started my career in trauma therapy again, attached to this idea of my own healing. 00:06:56.240 --> 00:07:01.600 And what I got really from that work is how to sit in discomfort. 00:07:01.759 --> 00:07:07.839 And that has served me really well, I think, as a leader, but also I think a piece too for me is letting go of control. 00:07:08.000 --> 00:07:17.279 Right now I'm at the place where we're big enough that I'm trying to delegate more and trying to include more people so that it's not always just the

cat show and other people's visions get to be a part of it. 00:07:17.360 --> 00:07:19.920 So there's really buy-in and we're creating something together. 00:07:20.079 --> 00:07:25.120 I know I shared with you a little bit that the interesting part about raising brave kids is we're a little bit of a startup. 00:07:25.279 --> 00:07:28.480 So it's not, it's not that I'm leading something that's already built. 00:07:28.560 --> 00:07:32.399 It's I'm building it while I am leading and learning to lead. 00:07:32.560 --> 00:07:36.720 And all of those pieces combined have put me also in a very vulnerable place. 00:07:36.879 --> 00:07:42.639 And so I've had to sit with that and really, I think, look towards how I manage that and navigate that. 00:07:42.959 --> 00:07:49.360 I worked with somebody who works in organizational development, and I was working with him on some some stuff. 00:07:49.439 --> 00:07:53.519 He was actually a teacher of mine, and he used the word discomfortable. 00:07:53.600 --> 00:07:54.319 And I loved that. 00:07:54.480 --> 00:07:57.279 It was like instead of just getting uncomfortable, getting discomfortable. 00:07:57.680 --> 00:07:58.480 Uncomfortable. 00:07:58.720 --> 00:07:59.600 Yeah, okay. 00:08:00.240 --> 00:08:09.759 And that's what I hear you doing, especially like you said, you're you're building the plane while flying it, and that that takes a lot of courage. 00:08:09.920 --> 00:08:14.560 It also takes a lot of, I mean, you have to be adaptable, right? 00:08:14.720 --> 00:08:18.800 Because it's like you something that you haven't anticipated because it wasn't there before. 00:08:18.959 --> 00:08:20.399 It's suddenly before you. 00:08:20.639 --> 00:08:24.319 And then there are all these people who are looking at you for direction, right? 00:08:25.279 --> 00:08:46.480 So what have you found out about yourself when you were faced with that type of situation where you know something that you didn't anticipate, something new has come up maybe, and you're maybe not sure how to deal with you, maybe have an inclination, but you're having to figure it out and also provide direction to the people who are relying on you. 00:08:46.799 --> 00:08:47.840 Yeah, yeah. 00:08:48.159 --> 00:08:53.440 I see a lot of I think the learnings is I feel like I own the pivot a lot. 00:08:53.759 --> 00:08:58.320 There's a lot of like, we've I'm planning to go this one direction, and then suddenly no, we're shifting. 00:08:58.480 --> 00:09:02.960 So um, trusting that I can shift, it's interesting. 00:09:03.120 --> 00:09:05.919 I specialize in anxiety and OCD. 00:09:06.000 --> 00:09:14.320 And so one thing I'm teaching constantly is how to sit in discomfort, but I'm also teaching about confidence and where that even comes from, right? 00:09:14.399 --> 00:09:29.919 And I I work with kids a lot and teenagers, and I'll often explain to them that like, hey, listen, like confidence just doesn't come from being like the best at something, it actually just comes from the belief that you can fall on your face and you know you're gonna figure it out. 00:09:30.159 --> 00:09:39.600 And that's I think what I'm trusting in a lot that like, hey, even if we pivot and we move the wrong direction or we shift, I'll figure it out, right? 00:09:39.759 --> 00:09:46.320 And one of the ways that has helped though is also really curating a team that I really strongly trust. 00:09:46.559 --> 00:09:48.399 And that has been really hard. 00:09:48.480 --> 00:10:03.200 Um, that's been incredibly hard to, you know, identifier the right people that really get this mission, um, who and and not only get the mission, but you always hear the the term, you know, find the people for the right seats also and figuring out what their strengths are. 00:10:03.440 --> 00:10:12.559 I I love that I think at one point in my company, I started getting feedback more from people. 00:10:12.720 --> 00:10:17.120 And and it was lovely because I had kind of read already a little bit of just my own research. 00:10:17.200 --> 00:10:24.399 I tend to go down rabbit holes on things that like I want to build a company that, you know, there can be vulnerability because that's gonna provide growth, right? 00:10:24.559 --> 00:10:45.120 And so being able to sit with that feedback and also see that a reframe of like, okay, this is not me failing, but it's also like an opportunity and it's also telling me that my team feels like safe enough and okay enough that we've built a culture here that they can actually speak up and share something that they'd like to be different in the way that maybe I'm engaging or that you know, the company is. 00:10:45.279 --> 00:10:47.600 And that has been so valuable. 00:10:47.679 --> 00:10:59.840 Um, and I think also pieces that make me have felt safer is like I know that like they're gonna come to me, but there are these moments before we got there that were hard. 00:11:00.000 --> 00:11:04.559 Um because I wasn't sure if, you know, hey, is this working for everybody? 00:11:04.720 --> 00:11:15.840 And I know having to sit with my own, I think, feelings of like I want to be liked and I, you know, and all of those things that I want to make sure that I'm serving, I think my clinician self too comes out sometimes. 00:11:16.480 --> 00:11:29.679 Where there's this ability to see sometimes pieces that I could lean into with my team, but that don't necessarily make sense for me as more of a director in that role. 00:11:29.759 --> 00:11:38.000 And so the shifting of roles has been also very interesting because I move in and out sometimes of my leadership positions. 00:11:38.320 --> 00:11:44.240 We have leadership management who reports to me and then manages our clinical team. 00:11:44.559 --> 00:11:49.919 And it's been amazing to see how we've been kind of the yin to my yang a little bit. 00:11:50.080 --> 00:11:53.360 I tend to be a little bit more visionary, I think, as a lot of entrepreneurs are. 00:11:53.519 --> 00:12:00.559 So

I'm filled with ideas and I'm very much like, oh, there's this thing on the horizon we could do, and I'll start a project. 00:12:00.720 --> 00:12:04.399 And I'm not as good as tying the knots on everything afterwards, right? 00:12:04.559 --> 00:12:13.519 And so it's been amazing because I have this partner in crime right now who's really good at coming back and being like, hey, Kat, we need to tie that one up before we move on to the next thing. 00:12:13.679 --> 00:12:13.840 Yeah. 00:12:14.000 --> 00:12:32.320 And so there's both this, this is something I'm excited about in my vision, but I think it's working as a team and figuring out how to really cultivate everyone's stress, strengths, and like really listen that I'm still doing, but I also think is serving me well. 00:12:32.399 --> 00:12:38.720 And that's what I've learned as a clinician, um, is really how to kind of pause sometimes and sit. 00:12:39.440 --> 00:12:58.159 Well, it sounds, I mean, and this is not something everybody does either, which is you've somehow created the space where feet people feel comfortable or at least able to, probably comfortable, to telling you, oh, you know, I don't know about this thing that we're doing over here. 00:12:58.399 --> 00:13:06.480 So what do you think you've done or has been done to cultivate that within your group? 00:13:07.039 --> 00:13:09.200 You know, I I don't know what book it was, right? 00:13:09.279 --> 00:13:18.240 We read millions of books as leaders when we feel uh feel our own imposter syndrome, but totally um, you know, I remember there was one point that I'm spending my time sometimes. 00:13:18.320 --> 00:13:21.200 We have at therapy offices, we have all these little offices, right? 00:13:21.279 --> 00:13:25.519 And and it can be very easy for clinicians just to stay behind the door. 00:13:25.679 --> 00:13:29.120 And I just made myself available a lot where I just was there. 00:13:29.440 --> 00:13:53.600 And I did that because I had to reframe for myself this space of like, hey, I could be sitting doing all sorts of like my finances or making a call or working on my marketing pieces, but it is incredibly valuable that I actually am present and make time to actually care about the lives of the people who work for me. 00:13:53.759 --> 00:13:54.000 Yeah. 00:13:54.159 --> 00:14:03.440 And so it there are times where I'm getting pulled in here and there into like, you know, hey, this conversation about maybe it's a clinical thing, but sometimes it's about somebody's dog. 00:14:03.519 --> 00:14:07.200 And and seeing both of those pieces as valuable, right? 00:14:07.360 --> 00:14:12.320 That it's not a waste of time, but it's also providing these opportunities. 00:14:12.559 --> 00:14:21.360 It's been a shift for me more so recently because I've have leadership now that is providing that a little bit more than I am, and I'm not nearly at the office. 00:14:21.519 --> 00:14:26.240 But also there's things like when I know someone's sick, I text them and go, hey, how's it going? 00:14:26.399 --> 00:14:27.840 Did you need anything from us? 00:14:28.080 --> 00:14:28.320 Right. 00:14:28.559 --> 00:14:35.840 And so really trying to think about how to actually care and know what's going on in people's lives. 00:14:36.000 --> 00:14:41.200 The other part is I tend to, I think, wear my heart on my sleeve a little bit. 00:14:41.360 --> 00:14:51.519 I I think that's also a difference in leadership that has happened too, is that the self-awareness is great, but I can't just be like, well, you know, I'm really good at being direct, not mind my words, right? 00:14:51.600 --> 00:14:57.120 So I have to both be self-aware, but also hold how that's going to impact others. 00:14:57.360 --> 00:15:04.960 And so there is this space for me where I both being available is great, but the other thing is I'm vulnerable. 00:15:05.039 --> 00:15:06.879 So when I mess up, I own it, I think. 00:15:06.960 --> 00:15:12.159 And that's been something that has been helpful, and as well as being regulated when other people mess up. 00:15:12.320 --> 00:15:16.960 And I think it's just taken time for people to have all of those experiences. 00:15:17.120 --> 00:15:21.279 And as they have, I think it's created this sense of safety. 00:15:21.600 --> 00:15:22.799 Yeah, that it's interesting. 00:15:22.879 --> 00:15:30.639 You know, I read a lot of books too and materials and listen to podcasts about leadership, as well as lots of other things. 00:15:30.799 --> 00:15:39.679 But on the topic of leadership, there's this idea that that you can somehow create this psychologically safe culture overnight. 00:15:39.840 --> 00:15:43.279 You know, you hear these people talking about, oh, what's the, you know, what are you going to do on day one? 00:15:43.679 --> 00:15:49.840 I'm not saying you can't do something on day one, but it sounds like this is consistent with your experience. 00:15:50.000 --> 00:15:52.559 This is relational and this takes time. 00:15:52.720 --> 00:15:55.440 You just like any relationship, right? 00:15:55.759 --> 00:15:57.840 It takes time to build that trust. 00:15:58.000 --> 00:16:09.279 It takes time to build the spaces where people feel comfortable and can trust because they've seen, oh, you know, Kat was this way five different times with different people. 00:16:09.440 --> 00:16:10.960 I suppose I could probably be that. 00:16:11.279 --> 00:16:15.840 I could probably tell her that I think this thing works or I'd like to try this thing. 00:16:15.919 --> 00:16:17.360 And what did she think about that? 00:16:17.600 --> 00:16:19.440 And so I appreciate that, right? 00:16:19.519 --> 00:16:21.840 Like this is this is a relationship job. 00:16:21.919 --> 00:16:26.399 This is not just a I'm gonna wave a magic wand and suddenly everybody feels like that. 00:16:26.720 --> 00:16:27.519 That would be great though. 00:16:28.320 --> 00:16:30.159 That would be great just to skip, skip ahead. 00:16:30.320 --> 00:16:36.639 I

remember my early days, like, gosh, I think really good example of that is I bought chairs for everyone, you know, because that's what we do. 00:16:36.720 --> 00:16:39.279 I'm like, okay, I've got to get everybody chairs so they're comfortable, right? 00:16:39.440 --> 00:16:45.440 And then I slowly noticed that somebody kept moving their chair out of the office into the waiting room, right? 00:16:45.600 --> 00:16:48.000 And I'm like, huh, how can your chair keeps heading up there? 00:16:48.159 --> 00:16:51.120 Because nobody told me that it was really uncomfortable. 00:16:51.440 --> 00:16:51.759 Right. 00:16:52.000 --> 00:16:52.240 Right. 00:16:52.559 --> 00:17:00.000 Um, and so it was, you know, it was one of the first opportunities that I had to be like, hey, like how's it going when checking in? 00:17:00.159 --> 00:17:06.240 And it wasn't right off the bat that people felt they could come to me and let me know that the chairs were a good fit. 00:17:06.400 --> 00:17:11.519 Now I think as a practice, we're at a different place, but it took time, you know. 00:17:11.759 --> 00:17:24.720 Um and and I think that place in that in-between though can be really anxiety provoking because you're also, I think, spinning sometimes, catastrophizing all the things in your head that might be going wrong or maybe you're unsaid. 00:17:24.880 --> 00:17:29.839 So I've also, I think as an anxiety specialist, I'm I'm pretty good at at helping people with rumination. 00:17:29.920 --> 00:17:38.640 So I just kind of try to do some of those skills with myself, which is really not going down the rabbit hole and just really paying attention to like what is my value right now? 00:17:38.720 --> 00:17:42.319 How do I just want to kind of keep moving forward and live my life with my feet? 00:17:42.559 --> 00:17:44.960 Yeah, I I like that approach a lot. 00:17:45.200 --> 00:17:55.920 I'm not sure that you could necessarily categorize this, but if you could describe your leadership style given everything you've just said, is there like a way that you would describe it? 00:17:57.039 --> 00:18:01.759 Yeah, I mean, I I think there's a lot of compassionate courage. 00:18:02.079 --> 00:18:07.359 Gosh, during the pandemic, I went and I did a whole course on mindful self-compassion. 00:18:08.079 --> 00:18:11.359 And more than anything, that changed my life. 00:18:11.519 --> 00:18:14.720 That changed the way that I show up with my clients. 00:18:14.960 --> 00:18:18.319 And it it it made me a better human. 00:18:18.480 --> 00:18:27.039 It has allowed me to courageously, I think, step into things because I can have a voice with myself that's much kinder. 00:18:27.200 --> 00:18:31.119 And when I have a voice with myself that's much kinder, I don't freak out on everybody so much so much. 00:18:32.799 --> 00:18:36.079 Yeah, because it's like, okay, I'm more steady, you know? 00:18:36.240 --> 00:18:45.519 Um, and I think that comes back to what we were talking about of just like there's so much internal work of even just the emotion regulation that I have to have to sit with someone. 00:18:45.680 --> 00:18:49.759 When they do come, it's wonderful they come to me, but also in my head, I'm freaking out, right? 00:18:49.839 --> 00:18:55.599 Going through, oh gosh, here are all the things that are gonna mean that we're gonna need to kind of work through. 00:18:55.920 --> 00:19:03.839 And I've learned to just pause and sit and wait and shift some of those thinkings to be more compassionate. 00:19:03.920 --> 00:19:08.559 And that I think shows up for the people who've who are in my employment. 00:19:08.720 --> 00:19:13.039 And um, it's it's something I feel very grateful that was given to me. 00:19:13.279 --> 00:19:13.920 Yeah. 00:19:14.400 --> 00:19:16.720 And you caught you called it courageous self-compassion. 00:19:17.200 --> 00:19:18.079 Courageous self-compassion. 00:19:18.319 --> 00:19:19.440 Yeah, say more about that. 00:19:19.599 --> 00:19:20.000 What is that? 00:19:20.160 --> 00:19:22.240 What is courageous self-compassion? 00:19:22.559 --> 00:19:26.480 Oh, um, I'm pretty good at doing hard things. 00:19:26.640 --> 00:19:35.039 I'm pretty also good at, you know, as much as I think I show up in a caring way for others, um I'm not scared to have the hard conversations. 00:19:35.200 --> 00:19:40.240 Um and so I know that part of that it means that we're gonna grow. 00:19:40.400 --> 00:19:53.519 Um, there's a there's a a lesson we teach kids around as they're moving through, trying to figure out anxiety that you know, we have what's called like the comfort zone, which is the space that really we don't we don't experience growth. 00:19:53.599 --> 00:19:55.279 It's everything just stays the same. 00:19:55.440 --> 00:19:56.079 Um, right. 00:19:56.160 --> 00:20:00.079 But it feels nice, it's comfy and cozy, it's recognizable in the moment. 00:20:00.160 --> 00:20:01.759 Yeah in the moment, yes. 00:20:01.920 --> 00:20:07.839 Um, and then there's a space we called kind of like the courage zone, and that's like a stepping out just enough, right? 00:20:08.000 --> 00:20:10.400 And then from there, there's a space I call the freak out zone. 00:20:10.640 --> 00:20:12.960 That's like maybe we took a giant leap, right? 00:20:13.039 --> 00:20:21.119 In a way that like our regulation system, it was maybe a little too much, and then our brain actually does shut down and it really doesn't learn because it was too big, right? 00:20:21.359 --> 00:20:26.240 So I think that's where I try to stay a lot is is that what is, you know, those moments. 00:20:26.400 --> 00:20:32.799 I mean, coming to podcasts like this, I started doing podcasts because I was like, you know, Kat, you you want to be a thought leader. 00:20:32.880 --> 00:20:38.640 Like I really love what I do and I I love my story and I love the way that I inspire others. 00:20:38.720 --> 00:20:41.119 And I can do that on an even bigger scale, right? 00:20:41.440 --> 00:20:43.359 When we say yes

to things like podcasts. 00:20:43.440 --> 00:20:49.440 But oh my gosh, it is hard to say yes to things like this because I could easily just stay in my comfort zone. 00:20:49.599 --> 00:20:56.079 Um, and being a leader in general has been completely out of my comfort zone in the business world. 00:20:56.240 --> 00:20:59.440 I have a two-decade career behind me as a clinician. 00:20:59.680 --> 00:21:01.039 I feel excellent there. 00:21:01.200 --> 00:21:07.440 I love when people invite me to speak on topics like OCD and anxiety and work with kids. 00:21:07.599 --> 00:21:10.079 And here I am, you're asking me to speak on leadership. 00:21:10.160 --> 00:21:24.640 And it's just like, oh, like I'm happy to do it because I'm gonna lean into that, because I can see that vision and I can have that compassionate moment with myself where I'm like, okay, even if I mess up, right, Kat, like it you were moving towards something that mattered, and that's important. 00:21:24.880 --> 00:21:35.039 So that's I guess what I would say is it's this this out of my comfort zone place that I'm willing to do because I can see the vision of where that can get me in growth. 00:21:35.200 --> 00:21:37.039 It's where I lead my team a lot too. 00:21:37.119 --> 00:21:43.599 I'm really good at projecting that vision of like, hey guys, we could get maybe here, you know, and then then my my leadership maybe slows me down. 00:21:43.759 --> 00:21:46.240 Like, okay, we'll maybe just take one step, right? 00:21:46.319 --> 00:21:48.799 Um, I really I I like that. 00:21:48.960 --> 00:21:59.759 I like that idea of sort of the comfort zone and then the this the space a little bit outside of that, not quite the freak out space, but the the the space where it's like that's okay, but we still have to have. 00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:05.920 Of what I'm taking away from you is we still have to have that self-compassion, like, yeah, it could mess up, or yeah, this could be really hard. 00:22:06.079 --> 00:22:13.680 And, you know, and I I'm I think you've you've you've done Kristen Neff's work and are familiar with her work and and self-compassion. 00:22:13.759 --> 00:22:18.240 And I love that, you know, that's like that common humanity point of like, yeah, this is hard. 00:22:18.400 --> 00:22:23.599 And like I'm not the only one currently experiencing this, or echo have ever experienced. 00:22:23.759 --> 00:22:27.680 There's probably millions of people actually experiencing this at this exact same moment. 00:22:27.920 --> 00:22:30.079 And it's gonna be okay because it always is. 00:22:30.160 --> 00:22:33.759 Like whether I mess up or not, I might learn something if I mess up. 00:22:33.920 --> 00:22:40.079 Um, or well, I'm always gonna learn something if I mess up, or I'm gonna do this great, and I'll learn from that too. 00:22:40.319 --> 00:22:51.200 And, you know, I love that that mindset, such a healthy, beautiful mindset that I actually find really hard for myself to employ on a daily basis. 00:22:51.359 --> 00:22:54.319 Or, you know, it's it's so easy sometimes. 00:22:54.400 --> 00:22:57.599 Um, I don't know if you've experienced this at different times. 00:22:57.839 --> 00:23:03.039 I'm sure you've encountered plenty of people who have, where it's like, oh yeah, that's great for other people. 00:23:03.920 --> 00:23:05.759 You should totally be self-compassionate. 00:23:05.920 --> 00:23:07.200 You you should do that. 00:23:07.440 --> 00:23:10.079 For me, uh no, I'm gonna kick my own ass. 00:23:11.200 --> 00:23:11.599 Right. 00:23:11.839 --> 00:23:14.480 And even though we know all the things, right? 00:23:14.720 --> 00:23:23.039 We know that the the the research is out there that is completely unhelpful and unproductive and counterproductive, but we do it anyway. 00:23:23.440 --> 00:23:25.200 So do you ever experience that? 00:23:25.359 --> 00:23:27.599 And if so, or have you worked with people who have? 00:23:27.680 --> 00:23:30.720 And if so, like what what's the recommendation there? 00:23:30.960 --> 00:23:32.000 Just asking for a friend. 00:23:32.240 --> 00:23:34.160 Yep, okay, yeah, gotcha. 00:23:34.319 --> 00:23:38.480 Um, you know, I I think early on, you know, very perfectionistic. 00:23:38.640 --> 00:23:39.599 I still can be. 00:23:39.759 --> 00:23:45.519 Um, you know, I have an idea, I really want it to work and I want it to be done well, right? 00:23:45.680 --> 00:23:49.359 So I think I was a lot more critical of myself younger for sure. 00:23:49.519 --> 00:23:52.880 Um, like I've fallen on my face a lot and that has helped help. 00:23:53.279 --> 00:24:10.960 Uh, but you know, those the piece I think that drives us sometimes with this not accepting self-compassion is this false belief sometimes that like by having a more critical voice, by having a more kind of like you could do better, kind of always in the background, right? 00:24:11.119 --> 00:24:12.960 That it's gonna propel us forward. 00:24:13.200 --> 00:24:16.640 And unfortunately it it does a lot of the times, right? 00:24:16.799 --> 00:24:22.880 But then, you know, when I pause with clients with it, it's kind of like, and when you got there, how did it feel? 00:24:23.839 --> 00:24:24.319 Right? 00:24:24.640 --> 00:24:30.880 Is this that that you might get to that place, but also at what cost, right? 00:24:31.200 --> 00:24:34.319 Um, does it now break down in your body, right? 00:24:34.559 --> 00:24:39.359 Um, I know I've had headaches during periods of time that were pretty intense, right? 00:24:39.440 --> 00:24:45.359 When I'm not in that space, um, maybe there's a cost to my family, I'm not as present, right? 00:24:45.759 --> 00:25:01.119 Um, I think really seeing sometimes we can get caught in this idea that this this more harsher side of us that we just kind of let loose and as we say, drive the bus is is helpful. 00:25:01.200 --> 00:25:06.480 But when we pause and actually look at it, it a lot of the times we find that it causes more pain. 00:25:07.920 -->

00:25:09.039 That's so good. 00:25:09.200 --> 00:25:10.079 I'm gonna remember that. 00:25:10.160 --> 00:25:11.599 I'll probably write it on a sticky. 00:25:11.680 --> 00:25:12.480 What is the cost? 00:25:12.640 --> 00:25:14.079 Such an excellent question. 00:25:14.400 --> 00:25:20.480 So um, whereas what is the cost of giving ourselves self-compassion? 00:25:20.640 --> 00:25:21.920 Uh, only a benefit. 00:25:22.079 --> 00:25:23.200 I don't see a cost. 00:25:23.759 --> 00:25:23.920 Yeah. 00:25:24.400 --> 00:25:25.359 Yeah, but it's hard. 00:25:25.440 --> 00:25:27.599 I mean, I think it does take a lot of practice. 00:25:27.759 --> 00:25:33.200 Um, I I always, you know, I did a little stint with more of like somatic work as well. 00:25:33.279 --> 00:25:35.680 And I I love the combination. 00:25:35.839 --> 00:25:38.240 I tend to put my hands on my heart like this. 00:25:38.400 --> 00:25:47.839 Sometimes I don't even have to say anything to myself because sometimes when I'm in one of those moments where I'm really just spiraling, right, about like all the messets I've done, all the things I'm not doing. 00:25:48.000 --> 00:25:49.279 I can't think straight. 00:25:49.599 --> 00:25:54.559 Our brains don't actually work really well to say the exact right nice thing to ourselves. 00:25:54.799 --> 00:26:00.400 So I've more more so these days tend to go for kind of this space of just putting my hands on my heart. 00:26:00.559 --> 00:26:05.279 And I've gone through, I think, some of the motions enough that that kind of now links it together. 00:26:05.440 --> 00:26:21.200 Um, but I I do think sometimes just giving yourself a hug, you know, that can be that can be just as powerful as going through all three steps with Krista enough of where you tell yourself, you know, I I can see how hard this is for you, and there is suffering, and it's okay. 00:26:21.440 --> 00:26:23.359 Other people are suffering too, right? 00:26:23.440 --> 00:26:24.799 And connecting us to humanity. 00:26:24.880 --> 00:26:26.720 Sometimes all those pieces feel like a lot. 00:26:26.960 --> 00:26:27.279 It does. 00:26:27.599 --> 00:26:30.880 It can just be take a breath and take a moment. 00:26:31.119 --> 00:26:32.799 And so I I very much encourage that. 00:26:32.880 --> 00:26:37.359 I know I teach a parenting class, and it's so funny because there's all these skills, right? 00:26:37.440 --> 00:26:48.720 You can learn as a parent, and I know in my own life, like I know all these skills, but the biggest skill that's I think is the most helpful sometimes is learning to just pause, breathe, and give yourself some compassion. 00:26:49.039 --> 00:26:50.240 You know, it's interesting. 00:26:50.400 --> 00:27:02.480 I just did a presentation the other week on some mindfulness techniques, and I ended up showing that what is now viral Ted Lasso scene. 00:27:02.640 --> 00:27:04.480 Have you seen this college of Ted Lasso? 00:27:04.720 --> 00:27:06.240 Oh yeah, I've seen it the viral video. 00:27:06.400 --> 00:27:09.759 I haven't watched the watched it actually, but I've seen it just go through my feed. 00:27:10.000 --> 00:27:13.359 Oh, it's this beautiful scene, and I think that's kind of what you're talking about. 00:27:13.680 --> 00:27:20.160 So neither here nor there with the storyline is other than the assistant coaches is having a day, right? 00:27:20.319 --> 00:27:27.680 I mean, it is a bit, and she has to extract herself from the situation and she's in the office and she's just sobbing. 00:27:28.000 --> 00:27:33.599 And Ted Lasso, who's the head coach, walks in and and essentially says, like, oh my gosh, what's going on? 00:27:33.759 --> 00:27:36.079 And she says, I don't even know. 00:27:36.400 --> 00:27:36.720 Right. 00:27:37.359 --> 00:27:42.240 And then he just sits next to her while she's sobbing and breathes. 00:27:43.279 --> 00:27:43.680 That's it. 00:27:45.839 --> 00:27:56.400 And it's it's sometimes so that's like what you're saying, it's that that presence that we would give to another person, which is so eventually in that scene, she she calms down. 00:27:56.559 --> 00:27:59.759 And and you can definitely hear him breathing like intentionally, right? 00:27:59.920 --> 00:28:01.200 So that she'll co-regulate. 00:28:01.359 --> 00:28:04.240 It's really very cool and very moving. 00:28:04.480 --> 00:28:13.039 But when we think about it, like when we comfort our kids, I mean, sometimes some of us want to fix something, but often at times it's just a hand on the shoulder, a hug. 00:28:13.680 --> 00:28:14.000 Right. 00:28:14.160 --> 00:28:24.000 And so that somatic response that we can also give to ourselves is so huge because sometimes we don't know what's going on, just like that coach in the Ted Lasso scene, just I don't even know. 00:28:24.079 --> 00:28:24.880 I don't know what's happening. 00:28:25.039 --> 00:28:26.480 I don't know what I need, right? 00:28:27.039 --> 00:28:31.680 Um, and so we don't have to know what we need in those moments when it's really hard. 00:28:31.759 --> 00:28:39.920 And the beautiful thing is you could be a therapist, you could be the CEO of some corporation, and you can still find a way to do it. 00:28:40.000 --> 00:28:41.440 And you can even do it covertly. 00:28:41.519 --> 00:28:52.880 You could be in a meeting and just kind of put your hand on your heart, nobody really can see, or they don't know what you're doing, or do whatever you need to do, but take a breath and nobody even needs to know. 00:28:52.960 --> 00:28:55.359 So these are beautiful techniques. 00:28:55.599 --> 00:28:56.799 Yeah, I love that. 00:28:56.880 --> 00:29:01.759 And I say that because I feel like you know, that the internet, it's so funny, it's so full of all these scripts. 00:29:01.839 --> 00:29:05.759 Like if you say this exact thing to yourself and you do all these specific words, right? 00:29:05.839 --> 00:29:09.599 And I think we can get really we we can overcomplicate things sometimes. 00:29:09.759 -->

00:29:21.039 So um, and you know, there there's another one that I love to use when I'm like spinning like that in that perfectionistic kind of thing, is this anxiety tends to live in the past and in the future, right? 00:29:21.200 --> 00:29:25.200 And so getting back to the now, I think you're you know, that mindfulness that you talk about, right? 00:29:25.279 --> 00:29:27.440 And I just go where, you know, where are my feet? 00:29:27.599 --> 00:29:28.559 Where are my feet? 00:29:28.720 --> 00:29:32.240 And bringing my attention back to my feet and pushing my feet into the floor. 00:29:32.319 --> 00:29:36.960 And these are skills I teach my my clients, I teach their parents and families. 00:29:37.119 --> 00:29:49.680 Um, it's it's something that I think is it's it's so interesting because as a therapist, a lot of times it's like we're we're working through skills, we're working through pieces, but we're also working through pieces ourselves. 00:29:49.839 --> 00:29:53.039 And you know, all the things I've learned have really benefited. 00:29:53.119 --> 00:30:06.640 And also hanging out with a six-year-old who's brave and courageous to step into something in that courage zone is like when I'm faced with it, it's like, cat, come on, you know, and so the inspiring pieces of others I think also have moved me forward. 00:30:06.880 --> 00:30:14.240 You know, I think in this is some some place of more my cultural background, I always see things as we don't have to do it alone either. 00:30:14.400 --> 00:30:16.400 And so finding, finding others. 00:30:16.480 --> 00:30:27.279 I've had a lot of wonderful coaches, wonderful people who I've sought guidance from who've really, really helped in moments when I'm really spinning and can say, hey, where are your feet? 00:30:27.680 --> 00:30:28.240 Right. 00:30:28.480 --> 00:30:28.960 Yeah. 00:30:29.200 --> 00:30:33.519 And I love that I don't know if you're familiar with Dan Harris, but he has a podcast. 00:30:33.599 --> 00:30:33.920 He's great. 00:30:34.000 --> 00:30:36.720 And he, I mean, that's one of the things he says, never worry alone. 00:30:36.880 --> 00:30:40.559 And I think he got that from Joseph Goldstein, his mindfulness teacher. 00:30:40.640 --> 00:30:43.440 And I love that because it's true, right? 00:30:43.599 --> 00:30:47.680 When we have somebody else there with us, it's like we're not, we're not alone in it. 00:30:47.839 --> 00:30:56.559 Whether it's we're anxious about, you know, what's going to happen when we get home or an interaction with a family member or something that's happening in the workplace, it doesn't matter. 00:30:56.640 --> 00:30:58.079 We don't have to do it alone, right? 00:30:58.160 --> 00:31:00.480 And in fact, it's so much better when we don't. 00:31:01.359 --> 00:31:08.799 And I wondered if maybe I could, you sort of mentioned imposterism, I think, in passing or imposter syndrome in passing. 00:31:09.039 --> 00:31:14.799 So um just kind of pivoting there, because I think

this is related or could be related. 00:31:15.200 --> 00:31:18.480 How how do you work with that within yourself? 00:31:18.640 --> 00:31:22.079 I mean, other than it sounds like you employ self-compassion. 00:31:22.319 --> 00:31:29.119 Um, but is there anything else that that you do when you're feeling like I might just be out of my depth here? 00:31:29.359 --> 00:31:37.359 You know, or even worse, imposter syndrome is like, I'm out of my depth, I'm certain of it, and somebody's gonna find out and it's gonna be horrible, right? 00:31:38.319 --> 00:31:42.079 I mean, I think I spin just like a lot of people, like a lot of humans, right? 00:31:42.160 --> 00:31:52.480 So I know my my partner a lot of the times will definitely have those moments where it's like, oh my gosh, I know we're trying to get a lease right now, and I'm just like, it's just gonna fall apart, all the dominoes of everything, right? 00:31:52.559 --> 00:31:59.279 And so there's definitely some of that, and then inviting others to spin with me, which isn't always the most helpful, you know. 00:31:59.440 --> 00:32:11.359 So I I think sometimes I do lean on my others too to know when, hey, let's let's get a glass of tea and you want to go for a walk and maybe we talk about something else for a little bit, you know. 00:32:11.519 --> 00:32:18.480 Um, like there's a there's a place, but also after a while it it doesn't feel good anymore, right? 00:32:18.559 --> 00:32:19.599 Now we're just spinning. 00:32:19.759 --> 00:32:25.920 I think one skill I've learned is is that problem solving, we're not always problem solving. 00:32:26.160 --> 00:32:34.720 Worry is is a choice a lot of the times, but you know, and so we can choose actually and put our our intention in a certain direction. 00:32:34.799 --> 00:32:47.440 And so if there really is a problem, I can spend some time figuring out, for example, what are the steps, who are the emails I need to get out about this lease, who do I need to call, all of those pieces and talking through that and working through that for myself. 00:32:47.519 --> 00:32:54.240 I know I journal that has also been helpful, I think, to just get out sometimes some of my own internal places. 00:32:54.880 --> 00:33:02.000 But then when I close the journal, choosing to say, okay, where do I want to spend the rest of my day now? 00:33:02.240 --> 00:33:10.720 And so I think that's a skill I've learned in the anxiety work that I do, that sometimes the problem isn't actually solvable. 00:33:10.799 --> 00:33:13.119 And we have to just learn to be in the uncertainty. 00:33:13.359 --> 00:33:13.519 Right. 00:33:13.759 --> 00:33:24.000 And so I think that's that tolerating discomfort part skills-wise, and then really looking to the things that I think do bring us joy, do bring us that connection to life. 00:33:24.240 --> 00:33:28.559 For me, I know like I love really, I'm in the Pacific Northwest, it's gorgeous here. 00:33:28.799 --> 00:33:35.119 There's an aspect of just being in the woods, being with the trees that is just so incredibly grounding, right? 00:33:35.200 --> 00:33:37.279 It helps me pay attention to my feet. 00:33:37.440 --> 00:33:38.160 It helps me. 00:33:38.319 --> 00:33:40.640 The other thing I do is I think music a lot. 00:33:40.880 --> 00:33:45.599 Um, I I totally am that person in their kitchen, like just like rock it out and dancing. 00:33:45.839 --> 00:33:53.039 And my neighbors have probably seen me, you know, but it's just there's a bunch of research on just how we can move things through our body. 00:33:53.279 --> 00:33:53.839 Right. 00:33:54.079 --> 00:33:55.680 And that has also helped. 00:33:55.839 --> 00:34:08.480 So I think those are kind of two really big ones, along with just some of the more CBT-oriented stuff I do for myself of talking myself through and really letting go and moving, moving past that kind of rumination place when it's not helpful. 00:34:08.559 --> 00:34:11.280 And sometimes my partner has to has to help with that. 00:34:12.159 --> 00:34:21.920 Yeah, I was thinking about that, you know, sometimes in my own relationship, my husband and I, we climb onto, we call it the self-righteousness bus. 00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:22.960 We're really good at that. 00:34:23.119 --> 00:34:24.800 We're like, can you believe this happened? 00:34:24.960 --> 00:34:26.880 Yeah, and then yeah, and then what about that? 00:34:27.039 --> 00:34:34.079 And then it's like, but at some point it's not helpful to be on the bus together anymore because now it's going down the freeway at a hundred miles an hour. 00:34:34.320 --> 00:34:39.360 And so, oh, somebody needs to pump the brakes, I know, on this bus. 00:34:39.599 --> 00:34:46.800 And and I do also find that being outside or you know, finding something different to do to get off that track. 00:34:47.280 --> 00:34:51.760 And also the the somatic work that you're talking about, just dancing. 00:34:51.840 --> 00:34:59.119 It doesn't have to be anything, you know, deep or or uh yeah, it doesn't have to be anything deep. 00:34:59.199 --> 00:35:05.599 Um you can you can just dance, dunce, dance your butt off, sing in the shower, in the car, out loud, you know, whatever. 00:35:05.760 --> 00:35:26.480 It and I think I have read some research, and maybe you know about it or you could correct me if it's wrong, that our fascia, which runs through like all of everywhere in our body, is not actually connected to the is it the hypothalamus, the the thing that so we can't even process necessarily everything that's happening in the body. 00:35:26.639 --> 00:35:32.480 So we have to actually move or find other things that we need to do to process whatever that is. 00:35:32.559 --> 00:35:34.320 It's like we can't cognitively get there. 00:35:34.480 --> 00:35:35.199 Is that right? 00:35:36.159 --> 00:35:36.320 Yeah. 00:35:36.639 --> 00:35:40.079 I mean, cognition isn't always accessible to us, you know. 00:35:40.239 --> 00:35:40.480 Right. 00:35:40.639 -->

00:35:48.239 So it's I think and when we're in periods of stress, right, we really lean on sometimes our most practiced place, which isn't always the most adapt. 00:35:49.360 --> 00:35:49.679 Right. 00:35:49.920 --> 00:35:51.199 So I think it it is. 00:35:51.360 --> 00:35:57.199 Sometimes it's it's also just getting those routines too and practicing, knowing what what those are. 00:35:57.280 --> 00:36:02.320 I think the journaling has helped me with that too, of knowing, like, hey, this actually was useful. 00:36:02.559 --> 00:36:07.440 Um, right, when I was able to shift and do some dancing and so maybe build that in. 00:36:08.239 --> 00:36:11.440 Most therapists, we also all have therapists and they're really good. 00:36:11.599 --> 00:36:13.840 The therapists we see have to be have to be really good. 00:36:14.159 --> 00:36:15.119 They have to be really good. 00:36:15.280 --> 00:36:17.199 They gotta they gotta work around all my stuff. 00:36:17.280 --> 00:36:17.840 Oh my gosh. 00:36:18.079 --> 00:36:31.679 And I have a wonderful therapist, and and I think having that and having somebody who who sits and reflects and helps me go, hey, you know that thing you did that was useful and that moved you the direction that made sense. 00:36:31.760 --> 00:36:34.639 Um, or maybe, hey, let's let's look at a different path. 00:36:34.800 --> 00:36:42.239 I think again, it it it really takes a lot of community, I think, to to lead and to lead well. 00:36:42.880 --> 00:36:52.880 Um and I'm I think I feel really grateful for having been a clinician before I stepped into this because I think I had a lot of makings of that community already. 00:36:52.960 --> 00:36:56.320 You were mentioning as a clinician, we we have to seek supervision. 00:36:56.559 --> 00:37:00.880 So there are individuals who we're coming to and sitting with and vulnerably. 00:37:00.960 --> 00:37:07.039 I remember I had a supervisor at one point of like cried at her office, you know, just a total mess, right? 00:37:07.199 --> 00:37:10.559 And and really leaning that direction. 00:37:10.719 --> 00:37:13.039 I I I had before I stepped here. 00:37:13.199 --> 00:37:18.559 And so when I stepped into leadership, what I did was I basically was like, okay, who's my board? 00:37:18.719 --> 00:37:20.000 Who's gonna be on my board? 00:37:20.239 --> 00:37:30.320 And so I've just tried to cultivate these these relationships that yeah, I can cry with when I need to, and I can be a mess and I can freak out with and they keep me keep me going. 00:37:30.400 --> 00:37:38.079 And my team has also become part of that, that where they give me feedback, they keep me going, they get excited about the stuff I get excited about. 00:37:38.400 --> 00:37:38.639 Yeah. 00:37:38.880 --> 00:37:39.760 You know, it's interesting. 00:37:39.840 --> 00:37:47.519 I had this like I was listening, I went on a run this morning and I was listening to a really good podcast, and I I love I love it. 00:37:47.599 --> 00:38:03.119 And I think that the therapist that they had on was very interesting, but I kind of bristled at first because she seemed to be suggesting that you should only go people overuse therapists, that that if you don't have a diagnosis, like maybe you don't actually need a therapist. 00:38:03.199 --> 00:38:07.599 And I was like, gosh, I I just don't agree with that at all. 00:38:08.239 --> 00:38:32.639 I think probably everybody could use a therapist or if not or just a coach or, like you said, a board, as it were, like a group of people that you can take things to that you know is not AI, is not gonna be a sycophant and agree with everything, is gonna provide you with support and presence and also maybe some difficult conversations sometimes, right? 00:38:33.440 --> 00:38:39.840 Um, so I'm I'm screwed grateful that you you you are signing off on my way of things. 00:38:39.920 --> 00:38:40.480 I appreciate that. 00:38:40.800 --> 00:38:42.480 Yeah, yeah, no, it it is. 00:38:42.639 --> 00:38:45.519 I think it's I think we've always as humans have that though, right? 00:38:45.679 --> 00:38:48.159 Like we always talk about how like community has shifted. 00:38:48.239 --> 00:38:50.400 Now we're more in these silos, unfortunately. 00:38:50.559 --> 00:38:55.760 I know some of my best work as a clinician is when I've had a team of even other providers, right? 00:38:55.840 --> 00:39:04.480 Who can kind of have doctors and teachers and parents, and we're all coming together to really figure out how to move the needle on something that we care about. 00:39:04.719 --> 00:39:11.760 And so, you know, I I see a lot of the systems work that is involved in running the business is a lot of that. 00:39:11.920 --> 00:39:21.360 And I'm grateful to it because oh gosh, if I had to figure out all the financial everything and have that hat and the hat and marketing and the hat and HR, it's a lot. 00:39:21.599 --> 00:39:24.079 Um I'm yeah, you need a team. 00:39:24.159 --> 00:39:24.320 Yeah. 00:39:24.559 --> 00:39:25.199 You need a team. 00:39:25.280 --> 00:39:25.920 You need a team. 00:39:26.079 --> 00:39:26.320 Yeah. 00:39:26.960 --> 00:39:27.840 What would you say? 00:39:27.920 --> 00:39:46.639 I guess I'm wondering if there are any stories of any particular leaders or any particular leaders that come to mind, whether they're people you know or people you've read or um people who have passed who have particularly, I don't know, either helped you or inspired you in some way. 00:39:49.679 --> 00:39:53.519 I mean, my grandpa pops up into my head as as kind of the thing. 00:39:53.840 --> 00:40:03.599 My grandpa was this, I don't know, he just had this like you know, those people you sit with and they just have this this presence that's just steady. 00:40:04.000 --> 00:40:10.800 And he didn't have a lot of like, he didn't need accolades and you know, and he didn't come from he didn't have a big old education or anything. 00:40:11.039 --> 00:40:14.639 And yet he if he saw a need, he

would feel it. 00:40:14.800 --> 00:40:20.559 If he saw something, even if it was outside of like the typical norm, he was okay. 00:40:20.800 --> 00:40:24.719 There's a you know, I think a legacy of his that I I always think of. 00:40:24.880 --> 00:40:38.639 And he there he lived in East LA and there was this high school there that had a big old beautiful rose garden in the front, but it would been there forever, and unfortunately they had no money, I guess, and weren't keeping it up. 00:40:38.719 --> 00:40:41.280 And so there's just these rose bushes that aren't blooming. 00:40:41.440 --> 00:40:51.920 And my grandpa was a gardener, and so he just kind of sought it by himself to just go and um I think respond to a problem. 00:40:52.079 --> 00:40:58.239 And so he showed up and he showed up consistently, and nobody asked him, and he kept going. 00:40:58.480 --> 00:41:09.280 And there are rose bushes now in front of that beautiful high school, and they continue to take care of them, even though my grandfather has passed, and it brings beauty to the neighborhood and the community. 00:41:09.519 --> 00:41:22.960 And so I think that's you know, when I think about being a leader of like tending the gardens around me of and how do I grow them and inspire others and what I leave for my legacy in the community, I think that's who comes to mind. 00:41:23.360 --> 00:41:24.480 That's a beautiful story. 00:41:24.719 --> 00:41:25.840 Thank you for sharing that. 00:41:26.000 --> 00:41:49.119 Um it makes me think of, and you know, I don't certainly expect you to nerd out with me on different leadership theories, but one comes to mind, which is servant leadership, is just what that sounds like, and kind of what you aspire to do in a way is you know, how what is the need here, and how do I, how do I serve it and how do I be present for it? 00:41:49.199 --> 00:41:51.920 And I think that's such a I don't know. 00:41:52.079 --> 00:41:52.639 You agree? 00:41:52.800 --> 00:41:54.559 Do you you feel like that's where you're at? 00:41:54.800 --> 00:41:56.880 Yeah, yeah, I've tried, you know. 00:41:56.960 --> 00:42:02.960 I think it's I spent all these years learning, and I think we we always say as therapists, we are the tool, right? 00:42:03.119 --> 00:42:17.039 And so there's so much that I've tried to work through and try to figure out now well, how do I how do I make that reach bigger than just a one-to-one client relationship that I can actually we lost a lot of child therapists over the pandemic? 00:42:17.119 --> 00:42:19.679 It was very sad, and people got burnt out. 00:42:19.920 --> 00:42:22.079 It was hard to, I think, transition to online. 00:42:22.400 --> 00:42:27.519 And so, you know, we're still building back, and so I can be a part of that. 00:42:27.679 --> 00:42:36.639 I can be a part of, I know in the OCD world, it typically takes seven years for someone to get a diagnosis, 14 years for them to access evidence-based treatment. 00:42:36.800 --> 00:42:43.199 And I have a skill set there, and it feels really good to be able to train more people and to make an impact. 00:42:43.360 --> 00:42:49.199 And and yeah, my grandpa inspires me because if I'm gonna leave something, it's it's you want to find what you can give back, I think. 00:42:49.280 --> 00:42:50.400 And that feels good. 00:42:51.039 --> 00:42:52.480 Yeah, that's so beautiful. 00:42:52.639 --> 00:42:59.280 I was thinking about, um, you know, I was gonna ask you if you would be willing to share some of your values, but I think you have. 00:42:59.440 --> 00:43:26.559 Uh, you know, maybe we haven't named them, but that you you have these values and that you you do your best to lead with from those values to assure that what you're continuing to build here aligns, aligns with those values, which is to to fill a need, to it sounds like to not only grow your practice for the sake of growing the practice, but because there is a need, you know, and and you're trying to fill that need and you're excited about doing that. 00:43:26.719 --> 00:43:28.159 So I love hearing that. 00:43:29.679 --> 00:43:38.800 So as we round things out here, is there anything that that you were hoping to talk about that we didn't get a chance to talk about? 00:43:39.199 --> 00:43:46.719 Oh I mean, I think we covered a lot of ground. 00:43:46.880 --> 00:44:07.920 I think some of the the interesting places that I think I'm sitting with is more about the entrepreneurship leading, which feels different, I think, than leading because I've led, I've been to the directors and I've I've done supervision with others, I've grown other people, um, and I loved it, but I did it underneath somebody else's hat, right? 00:44:08.000 --> 00:44:12.400 And so this is the first time I'm leading, and it that leadership actually feels very different. 00:44:12.559 --> 00:44:15.280 It's feels a lot more scary, a lot more risky. 00:44:15.440 --> 00:44:19.199 There are days where I wake up and I'm like, okay, I'm just gonna burn it all down, you know. 00:44:19.280 --> 00:44:23.039 And you know what's amazing is my team goes, we'll burn it down with you, Kat. 00:44:24.639 --> 00:44:25.599 We're all in it together. 00:44:25.760 --> 00:44:25.920 Great. 00:44:26.159 --> 00:44:27.119 We're all in it together. 00:44:27.280 --> 00:44:31.840 Um, and so you know, but it's it's different, it has a different flavor. 00:44:32.000 --> 00:44:41.519 I think the the the flavor sometimes, something I've been sitting with too is sometimes some of building something also means it's not so exciting. 00:44:41.679 --> 00:44:43.039 Like I love the exciting part. 00:44:43.119 --> 00:44:50.880 I love the like, okay, we got a new place and you know, we're furnishing it, we're hiring, and we're growing, but there's also just the steady place. 00:44:51.119 --> 00:44:53.360 Um I don't do so great things. 00:44:54.559 --> 00:45:01.920 Um I have to, I call my therapist a little bit more there because the steadiness, it doesn't give

me the like the dopamine hits that I want. 00:45:02.079 --> 00:45:07.599 It doesn't kind of provide me with the reassurance that, like, hey, we're we're we're moving the needle, right? 00:45:07.760 --> 00:45:18.320 I have this idea of of this beautiful, rich, um, you know, raising brave kid that is the place for OCD and anxiety across Oregon and California. 00:45:18.800 --> 00:45:21.199 And I really can see it. 00:45:21.920 --> 00:45:26.880 Oh, I can't just make that jump all the time because we have to do it in a way that works. 00:45:26.960 --> 00:45:31.519 Like we were talking about not everything happens right off the bat overnight. 00:45:31.760 --> 00:45:34.239 Um, there's there's just a steadiness. 00:45:34.400 --> 00:45:37.599 And so that's the place I've been in more lately. 00:45:37.760 --> 00:45:44.480 Um, you know, there have been different pivots I've tried and they haven't worked, and it's or different things that have made haven't made sense. 00:45:44.559 --> 00:45:46.480 So I haven't decided to pursue. 00:45:46.639 --> 00:46:02.880 And so there's really just this steady and almost continuing on making raising brave kids as effective and aligned with our mission as we possibly can, so that when an opportunity does arrive, we can move and move well. 00:46:03.199 --> 00:46:03.440 Okay. 00:46:03.760 --> 00:46:13.119 But that in between is is hard, especially as a visionary, I think, as I tend to be a little bit more um where I really want to use that hat more. 00:46:13.280 --> 00:46:15.119 Um that that could be hard. 00:46:15.440 --> 00:46:16.800 It's discomfortable. 00:46:17.039 --> 00:46:18.320 It's discomfortable. 00:46:18.480 --> 00:46:20.239 Yeah, it's discomfortable. 00:46:20.880 --> 00:46:21.440 Yeah. 00:46:21.760 --> 00:46:26.960 Um well, this podcast, people who listen to it love, love, love books. 00:46:27.199 --> 00:46:34.719 Uh, and so if you wouldn't mind share sharing either what you're reading or what you would recommend listeners read, it doesn't matter. 00:46:34.800 --> 00:46:44.079 It could be fiction, it could be nonfiction, it could be a short article, it could be anything that comes to mind that you're like, you know, I really love this thing that I read recently. 00:46:44.480 --> 00:46:52.320 Yeah, one is there is a Substack for female founders that I've really come to love. 00:46:52.480 --> 00:46:53.599 I met her at a conference. 00:46:53.760 --> 00:46:55.440 Her name is Mia Burke. 00:46:55.920 --> 00:46:56.239 Okay. 00:46:56.719 --> 00:46:59.440 And it's called Fabulous Female Founders. 00:46:59.519 --> 00:47:02.400 And I've I've found that to be just very lovely. 00:47:02.639 --> 00:47:10.880 She does really great examples through like tennis and for teenage kids, but it also kind of all comes back to just I think running a company, and that's been lovely. 00:47:11.039 --> 00:47:16.159 And then there's a book, I think Dan Coyle, it's called Culture Code. 00:47:16.239 --> 00:47:23.599 It's very real old, but I really loved that in trying to build the understanding of our team and how do I facilitate. 00:47:23.920 --> 00:47:27.679 And then the last one that I think a lot of people suggest is like radical candor. 00:47:27.840 --> 00:47:40.639 I think that has also been an excellent one to know like, hey, we have to have hard conversations and sit in the discomfort and how to do that well while also creating psychological safety. 00:47:41.039 --> 00:47:56.000 Yeah, and it's something that I mean, we could have a whole separate podcast about how that's not happening that much in this culture, the way that we have it with social media and texting and just, you know, uh this challenge of having these difficult conversations. 00:47:56.079 --> 00:48:03.280 So I think that's a all of those are fantastic suggestions, and I will hopefully find them and I will put them in the show notes. 00:48:03.519 --> 00:48:12.800 Um finally, if someone's interested in you, the work that you do, raising brave kids, all the things that that you're steeped in, how do they find you? 00:48:13.119 --> 00:48:17.599 Yeah, you can go to our website, www.raisingbrave kids.com. 00:48:17.760 --> 00:48:21.199 We're also on Instagram, so we're raisingbrave.kids. 00:48:21.599 --> 00:48:23.280 And then you can find me on LinkedIn. 00:48:23.360 --> 00:48:26.719 I always love when people reach out and are interested in following what we're doing. 00:48:26.880 --> 00:48:28.159 And yeah, it's been a pleasure. 00:48:28.400 --> 00:48:29.440 Well, thank you so much. 00:48:29.599 --> 00:48:32.239 I will definitely put those all in the show notes as well. 00:48:32.400 --> 00:48:41.280 It's been lovely taking the time to spend some time talking about leadership and your practice and your values and all that you have to offer, really appreciate it. 00:48:41.360 --> 00:48:43.280 And hopefully get to talk again soon. 00:48:43.679 --> 00:48:44.000 Absolutely. 00:48:44.800 --> 00:48:45.920 All right, take care, everyone. 00:48:46.719 --> 00:48:47.440 Thank you. 00:48:56.320 --> 00:48:59.760 Thank you for spending this time with me on the Fully Mindful. 00:48:59.920 --> 00:49:08.400 If something in this conversation would help your team, whether that's the team in the office or the team at home, pass the episode along to someone you lead with. 00:49:08.559 --> 00:49:13.679 Follow the show wherever you listen and leave a rating or a review so more leaders can find it. 00:49:13.920 --> 00:49:18.719 For workshops, programs, and practices, visit thefulymindful.com. 00:49:18.960 --> 00:49:22.559 Until then, lead with presence and take good care.