התמלול המלא של Ep94 Connection Intelligence w. John N Cooper

to found and drive their science boards, we started to zero in on how we could leverage improved human connection in organizations. 00:04:48.160 --> 00:04:54.480 And you know, it's been a journey of science and practice to build a platform which enhances human connection. 00:04:54.480 --> 00:05:10.000 And so over the last two years, with my great esteemed science colleagues and the science board that we've set up, we've really got to what I call the CP effect, which is a brass tacks, if people feel connected to themselves and each other, there is a performance effect. 00:05:10.000 --> 00:05:14.800 And that's my mission now, I suppose, is to explore that, but in a plural way. 00:05:14.800 --> 00:05:43.439 So it's not about a product, it's about thinking around this from the point of view of what really matters for people at work and what leaders need to do and managers could enable to improve relationships and connection, and what organizations, as they inevitably go through massive, massive change and fast with the impact of AI, how they build in human connection or connection intelligence, as I now call it, as part of their infrastructure. 00:05:43.680 --> 00:05:45.120 Did you say connection intelligence? 00:05:45.120 --> 00:05:46.000 Is that what you call it? 00:05:46.160 --> 00:05:49.199 Yeah, that's what we've sort of coined that phrase now. 00:05:49.199 --> 00:05:58.639 So it's the idea really that you can be mindful and build into an organization human connection as part of the design, as part of the infrastructure. 00:05:59.040 --> 00:06:05.439 It's interesting that you've kind of gone there over the last couple of years, because that's a similar place to the one that we've gone to. 00:06:05.439 --> 00:06:10.800 So all the research we've been doing for the book that I've been writing and very close to finishing. 00:06:10.800 --> 00:06:14.240 Well, it's finished, it's being rewritten at the moment, just some few sections. 00:06:14.240 --> 00:06:20.240 Actually, the book is all about what matters at work, in order to drive a high-performing environment. 00:06:20.240 --> 00:06:24.240 So the book's all about psychological safety, but it's the precedence of psych safety. 00:06:24.240 --> 00:06:26.160 And it is exactly that. 00:06:26.160 --> 00:06:34.240 So whilst we haven't coined connection at all in the book, we talk about interpersonal connection and our model of psychological safety is one of the core foundations. 00:06:34.240 --> 00:06:46.480 But we start with trust and the first chapters on trust and second chapters on a belonging as the foundations of psych safety and what really matters in order to drive success and high performance in organizations. 00:06:46.480 --> 00:06:47.439 So it's really interesting. 00:06:47.439 --> 00:06:51.680 We've gone down different paths, but we've kind of almost arrived at a really similar destination. 00:06:52.000 --> 00:06:52.639 It's interesting. 00:06:52.639 --> 00:07:04.480 I was talking to an old client yesterday in America who's CEO of a business called Alant, which is a sort of digital media data insight organization, is in the States. 00:07:04.480 --> 00:07:12.240 You know, he's been on a journey, has an amazing track record of turning businesses around and shooting the lights out in terms of their performance. 00:07:12.240 --> 00:07:16.800 And he's just written a book called From the Boardroom to the Barn. 00:07:17.360 --> 00:07:18.079 To the Barn. 00:07:18.319 --> 00:07:21.199 Yeah, to the Barn, which is a great title. 00:07:21.199 --> 00:07:34.319 And it's his interest in horses and horse whispering, in the sense of it's a metaphor for understanding that just in the same way as horses are tribal, social, emotional creatures, so are humans. 00:07:34.319 --> 00:07:40.720 Yeah, so are organizations, and so are leaders, custodians really of the tribe. 00:07:40.720 --> 00:07:47.279 And you know, human connection works at multiple levels, really, level of self, level of team, level of organization. 00:07:47.279 --> 00:07:56.079 And in the end, trust can't exist on its own, it needs to be in the context of the dynamic between the people, and that's human connection. 00:07:56.079 --> 00:07:58.000 Or disconnection, I suppose. 00:07:58.319 --> 00:08:10.800 Our language has always been about the fact that in order to create trust, you need to create interpersonal connection, you need to have strong personal relationships rather than professional, where we just talk about work. 00:08:10.800 --> 00:08:17.199 You mentioned that Fairo had some insight that you found helpful when you were thinking about human connection. 00:08:17.519 --> 00:08:33.840 Yeah, I think the work of Will Schutz, the American psychologist, who was foundational really to the humanistic psychology movement in the US, is absolutely profound in relation to understanding human needs and relationships. 00:08:33.840 --> 00:08:43.519 I've been lucky enough to work quite a lot with it, and it is very much a foundation of the way I look at human connection, and I think it's a model that's really worth looking at. 00:08:43.519 --> 00:08:45.679 How much do you know about it, Amanda? 00:08:45.919 --> 00:08:47.039 A FIRO B model. 00:08:47.039 --> 00:08:53.120 I'm trained and I don't think you trained us, because you used to accredit organisations, didn't you, in FIRO? 00:08:53.120 --> 00:08:55.440 I think it was Team Focus that trained me years ago. 00:08:55.440 --> 00:08:56.080 So I'm trained. 00:08:56.080 --> 00:08:58.000 Do you know what I still refer to the model? 00:08:58.000 --> 00:09:00.399 And Sarah and I both use the model in theory. 00:09:00.399 --> 00:09:06.320 We don't use the psychometric, but we often think about inclusion, affection, and control, whether it's wanted or expressed. 00:09:06.320 --> 00:09:15.519 The actual concept of FIRO and wanted and expressed needs, I think, is actually really helpful sometimes to understand the differences and dynamics between people.

00:09:15.840 --> 00:09:20.320 Yeah, I think it makes very simple what really goes on between people. 00:09:20.320 --> 00:09:26.559 And similarly, I was trained by Roy Charles at Team Focus back in the mid-90s, I think it was. 00:09:26.559 --> 00:09:31.840 And I loved it so much, I went to America and did the sort of full training and trained a trainer. 00:09:31.840 --> 00:09:39.840 But the the way I understand it, it really simplifies for any leader the importance of interpersonal relationship. 00:09:39.840 --> 00:09:59.519 And so it breaks down really that probably 90% of what goes on between people is down to three things: the extent to which someone wants to feel significant and included, the extent to which someone wants to feel competent, and the behavior around self-determination and control. 00:09:59.519 --> 00:10:10.320 And finally, in terms of quality of relationship, the extent to which a person feels accepted and liked or valued for who they are, and that behavior of sort of warmth. 00:10:10.320 --> 00:10:15.600 And what I like about it is it gets to the give and take of human connection. 00:10:15.600 --> 00:10:20.559 So there's what I express or give out to you, and there's what I want back. 00:10:20.559 --> 00:10:28.000 And this really helps us understand, you know, why is it sometimes that when we work with somebody early on, it's really easy. 00:10:28.000 --> 00:10:31.679 It's because we connect well, because we meet each other's needs. 00:10:31.679 --> 00:10:34.960 It also explains, you know, where things break down. 00:10:34.960 --> 00:10:47.600 So why is it sometimes that we set up a team and we just can't get to doing the work because we're incompatible, because perhaps one person wants to be in control and another person wants to be in control. 00:10:47.600 --> 00:10:49.919 And so we never really get to doing the work. 00:10:49.919 --> 00:10:53.759 We just trip up around our interpersonal needs and feelings. 00:10:53.759 --> 00:11:00.399 And so it's a really powerful lens to unpack how to improve relationships to be more productive. 00:11:00.720 --> 00:11:04.159 We talk a lot about climate being how you feel. 00:11:04.159 --> 00:11:14.480 Psychological safety is climate, not culture, and therefore how you feel in a team or in your interactions can really depend on all the dynamics around you. 00:11:14.480 --> 00:11:15.919 That was one reflection. 00:11:15.919 --> 00:11:20.559 And the other reflection is around reciprocity because we're quite simple human beings. 00:11:20.559 --> 00:11:21.679 Our brains are quite simple. 00:11:21.679 --> 00:11:24.320 We look for predictability, control, and so on. 00:11:24.320 --> 00:11:34.559 If we see Caitlin, for example, being high on expressed warmth, then we will assume that Caitlin wants that warmth back in return, but that's not necessarily the case. 00:11:34.559 --> 00:11:48.480 And I think that's what's quite interesting around that whole model of FIRO about how to build human connection using your language, is that we can make assumptions on the basis of what we see and the way people express their behaviour versus actually what they need and want in return. 00:11:48.799 --> 00:11:52.000 Yes, and humans are weird and wonderful creatures, aren't they? 00:11:52.000 --> 00:12:04.080 You know, sometimes I think our behaviour is driven, if I take an emotional intelligence perspective, I know this is something you're interested in, Amanda, from a mindset of survive and cope. 00:12:04.080 --> 00:12:12.320 So they're a bit self-disconnected and they can be a bit rigid and defensive in their behaviour, a bit brittle, and perhaps have a distorted awareness. 00:12:12.320 --> 00:12:20.159 They're picking up things they expect to see in a biased way, and they're trying to defend themselves to feel competent or okay. 00:12:20.159 --> 00:12:25.919 And other times individuals show up in a thrive, you know, the Carol Dweck sort of mindset stuff. 00:12:25.919 --> 00:12:33.120 You know, they have a growth intention, and their behaviour is coming from a place of productivity, collaboration, learning. 00:12:33.120 --> 00:12:37.279 And they're very different places that those behaviours are driven from. 00:12:37.279 --> 00:12:59.519 And I think from a human connection point of view, it's really, really interesting because at some level, most of us have a filter or an unconscious awareness, whether somebody is coming from a good place, a place of good intention, or another place with a different agenda that you can't make sense of or you can't quite relate with. 00:12:59.519 --> 00:13:05.519 And that for me is a sort of acid test of you know, when we feel connected, we know we're collaborating. 00:13:05.519 --> 00:13:12.399 There is a sense of psychological safety, but it comes from the chemistry of the trust in the relationship in that dynamic. 00:13:12.639 --> 00:13:24.240 We were talking earlier, weren't we, Caitlin, on the other pod we were recording about microexpressions and how you may say one thing, but actually you're giving quite different signals away in that moment, and it's the signals that we pay attention to. 00:13:24.240 --> 00:13:36.320 But interestingly, our research around resilience, because it's an affect model, so our model of resilience is all about nine aspects of affect, so they're positive and negative affect. 00:13:36.320 --> 00:13:48.159 And what we found is people who get a sten 10 on any of the scales, are people who experience extreme positive emotions and rarely experience extreme negative emotions. 00:13:48.159 --> 00:14:01.279 But what we have found with some of those people who get really high scores is that they are very dismissive and discounting of people who experience low affect and they just do these throwaway, just cheer up, don't have the app. 00:14:01.279 --> 00:14:04.159 Just turn your frown upside down, stop being so grumpy. 00:14:04.159 --> 00:14:14.320 And they can't understand or acknowledge

actually what it feels like to be low, and therefore that human connection is broken because they can't empathize with what the experience is. 00:14:14.320 --> 00:14:21.039 Where we found people who score quite low on the questionnaire, arguably, if you took it at face value, could say they're low on resilience. 00:14:21.039 --> 00:14:22.639 Actually, often they're the opposite. 00:14:22.639 --> 00:14:26.320 They're people who have learned incredible techniques for coping. 00:14:26.320 --> 00:14:37.200 The neuroplasticities come into place because they know how to face into challenging moments, challenging feelings, and they're really attentive and thoughtful and considerate of those who also struggle. 00:14:37.200 --> 00:14:40.559 High score on our resilience questionnaire is not necessarily a good thing. 00:14:40.879 --> 00:14:42.399 Yeah, it's so interesting. 00:14:42.399 --> 00:14:47.600 I'm thinking about Mike and the conversation we had yesterday about boardroom to barn. 00:14:47.600 --> 00:14:53.600 He said, the funny thing is, he's also um sort of business leader and lecturer in a business school in Chicago. 00:14:53.600 --> 00:14:57.039 He said, The funny thing is, my team always want to come with me. 00:14:57.039 --> 00:15:02.240 He said, you know, we've been through thick and thin in turning around organizations. 00:15:02.240 --> 00:15:05.440 And he said, you know, we're not perfect, but we really know each other. 00:15:05.440 --> 00:15:23.039 We're deeply connected, we trust each other, we know where we have our own weaknesses, but together, because of our experience and our history, we're so deeply connected that the relationship almost overtakes the organization that we work with because we know we're effective. 00:15:23.360 --> 00:15:24.159 I really like that. 00:15:24.159 --> 00:15:30.480 I think I see that in our directors actually, because we've been together so long and we know each other so well, albeit in the organization. 00:15:30.480 --> 00:15:33.440 Unlike Mike, who's been in many Mike. 00:15:36.080 --> 00:15:39.200 Ever wonder what's really driving your team's success or holding it back? 00:15:39.200 --> 00:15:44.720 With BeTalent psychometric tools, you'll get evidence-based insights that transform potential into action. 00:15:44.720 --> 00:15:47.200 Ready to see what your team is truly capable of? 00:15:47.200 --> 00:15:52.879 Visit the CPO.co.uk to learn more about our BeTalent Resilience questionnaire and our other tools. 00:15:52.879 --> 00:15:56.399 If you'd like to take the conversation further, contact me on LinkedIn. 00:15:56.399 --> 00:15:59.679 That's Angela Malik, M-A-L-I-K. 00:16:02.799 --> 00:16:11.600 I think I've also seen in businesses particularly where people are going, well, teams are going through a really kind of challenging period. 00:16:11.600 --> 00:16:22.559 We did some research actually with one organization when we're looking into high-performing teams, and one of the things that they were saying helped that team be high performing was when they were going through that tough time, they were really there to support each other. 00:16:22.559 --> 00:16:25.519 And they almost felt they were all going into the office at the same time. 00:16:25.519 --> 00:16:26.960 They were in it together. 00:16:26.960 --> 00:16:32.960 And so I guess that also then probably opens up another tangent around hybrid working potentially and face to face. 00:16:32.960 --> 00:16:48.000 But it was just it's interesting you said that because it's made me think actually, yeah, it's that really kind of understanding what each other are going through and supporting each other is such a pinnacle for also just creating that connection and thinking when you know, when we do finish the project, we can look back and we can say, Well, we got through that, we can laugh about it. 00:16:48.320 --> 00:16:50.320 Clarity and purpose, that's really important. 00:16:50.559 --> 00:17:22.400 And and really the predicate for the research we've been doing was the Schutz FIRO and latterly the human element, expanded FIRO theory, which in essence showed through evidence-based research, really, particularly in the military, that when you get compatibility in terms of behaviour and feelings amongst teams, then you get about 25% higher performance output from those teams than teams who have low compatibility interpersonally. 00:17:22.400 --> 00:17:33.759 So that compatibility performance effect or connection performance effect is essentially saying it's not about the capability, the intelligence, the personality. 00:17:33.759 --> 00:17:42.240 This is about the chemistry, the connections between people to work together and build something bigger than the sum of its parts. 00:17:42.240 --> 00:17:46.160 And so that's the exam question for me is how do we grab hold of that? 00:17:46.160 --> 00:17:54.240 Because not only is it about performance, it's also about feeling good, feeling human, feeling part of something and feeling healthy. 00:17:54.240 --> 00:18:01.279 It's extraordinary, really, as you look at some of the recent science around social prescription, for example. 00:18:01.279 --> 00:18:12.559 It turns out connecting with your neighbours, being part of local organizations that are doing good is a much better way to manage your health. 00:18:12.559 --> 00:18:19.680 In other words, connecting with people is really good for your state, for your hormones, for your immune system. 00:18:19.680 --> 00:18:22.319 And the opposite is also true. 00:18:22.319 --> 00:18:30.640 The science shows that people die younger if they're disconnected and their health problems escalate if they don't have human connection in their lives. 00:18:30.880 --> 00:18:33.519 I think you've just articulated that so beautifully. 00:18:33.519 --> 00:18:36.880 I love what you just said because I couldn't agree more. 00:18:36.880 --> 00:18:41.599 I like your language around chemistry, it's the interconnections between

people that's the most fundamental. 00:18:41.599 --> 00:18:47.279 As a business, we talk a lot about we're not a personality house, we're not an aptitude business. 00:18:47.279 --> 00:18:48.880 There's a good reason for it. 00:18:48.880 --> 00:18:52.960 We don't believe they're the differentiators of success for organizations. 00:18:52.960 --> 00:19:06.880 We actually believe it's about the things that we're focusing our energy on, which is around the environment we create, the teams we create, the health of the people, hence resilience, what energizes them and what brings them together, and also that cognitive diversity. 00:19:06.880 --> 00:19:13.680 One of the things that's quite interesting about what you have just said is that connection almost felt like a bit like harmony. 00:19:13.680 --> 00:19:17.680 One of the things we always talk about is that we don't necessarily want harmony. 00:19:17.680 --> 00:19:22.960 We want to actually be uncomfortable quite a lot in order to challenge each other. 00:19:22.960 --> 00:19:25.200 So that cognitive diversity is really key. 00:19:25.200 --> 00:19:27.920 But you can't have that unless you've got trust, of course. 00:19:27.920 --> 00:19:30.000 So can I take us down another part? 00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:31.200 I was gonna do that too. 00:19:31.279 --> 00:19:32.240 So you might be stealing. 00:19:32.240 --> 00:19:34.559 Yes, you stole, I was gonna say. 00:19:34.559 --> 00:19:36.559 We're on the same page though. 00:19:36.559 --> 00:19:37.680 Um we are, we are. 00:19:37.680 --> 00:19:38.559 I guess the question, yeah. 00:19:38.559 --> 00:19:48.720 Well, I was just I'd love to hear your perspective, John, in terms of you know we are in the age of AI and what are you seeing and what are you thinking in terms of human connection and how AI is inhibiting that. 00:19:49.119 --> 00:19:59.839 I'm thinking as a consultant, as a practicing psychologist, I'm thinking it is absolutely extraordinary and unprecedented what's happening. 00:19:59.839 --> 00:20:21.599 I think it's absolutely radical, and I think many of us haven't quite got our heads, hands, and hearts around what this really means for us in life and in particular in work, how we do work, how much trust we put into using AI, what it means for us in terms of the way we do relationships. 00:20:21.599 --> 00:20:23.920 It's just extraordinary. 00:20:24.240 --> 00:20:26.960 And what do you think are going to be the biggest impact, John? 00:20:27.279 --> 00:20:35.839 So I've thought about this quite a lot, and I'm lucky enough to work with some people in the space who know a lot more about it than me. 00:20:35.839 --> 00:20:48.400 One of the colleagues I've got in the Thomas faculty, which we sort of we're building out this ecosystem of many partners that are interested in human connection in the workplace, is Mark Zaya Saunders. 00:20:48.400 --> 00:20:56.000 So Mark wrote the famous book Time Boxing, which is all about how you use your time well to be productive. 00:20:56.000 --> 00:21:05.440 And latterly has bless him, he's moved to uh Spain, partly because of his interest in playing competitive paddle tennis, partly because of the climate. 00:21:05.440 --> 00:21:09.119 But he has a an outfit now called AI in the wild. 00:21:09.119 --> 00:21:18.559 And what AI in the wild does is get a gauge on monitor through vast amounts of data what are people actually doing with AI. 00:21:18.559 --> 00:21:24.160 His Harvard Business Review article last year was about this, it's the one that went viral. 00:21:24.160 --> 00:21:30.960 So it was the revelation that most people use AI for mentorship, companionship, friendship. 00:21:30.960 --> 00:21:36.559 And he's just about to publish one year later what's happened, and it's not dissimilar. 00:21:36.559 --> 00:21:44.880 So people are leaning into AI, weirdly, as if it's a friend, as if it's it's a relationship, which is another thing in itself. 00:21:45.200 --> 00:21:46.160 That's so interesting. 00:21:46.160 --> 00:21:48.559 I've never used AI in that way. 00:21:48.559 --> 00:21:53.839 I use it to check my thinking, to build on my thinking, to expand. 00:21:53.839 --> 00:21:55.200 Have you ever used friend? 00:21:55.200 --> 00:21:59.279 Um I mean to share one all the time, all the time. 00:21:59.440 --> 00:21:59.599 No. 00:21:59.599 --> 00:22:09.759 Um I do actually have a very close my one of my best friends uses it for that reason as a friend or just a soundboard, you know, various situations outside of work. 00:22:09.759 --> 00:22:19.200 And they find it quite useful because I guess it's sparking some different perspectives or ideas and things like that in a different way to obviously how you wouldn't work. 00:22:19.200 --> 00:22:22.640 But yeah, I think I use it more in the work capacity rather than outside. 00:22:22.640 --> 00:22:27.279 To be honest, I use it a lot and just to say, you know, how long do I need to boil my egg for? 00:22:27.279 --> 00:22:29.200 That sort of thing. 00:22:30.799 --> 00:22:31.680 Critical questions. 00:22:31.680 --> 00:22:33.839 It's like an extra pair of hands, isn't it? 00:22:33.839 --> 00:22:35.119 Sort of in a box, Google. 00:22:35.119 --> 00:22:36.000 It's an extra brain. 00:22:36.000 --> 00:22:55.839 What I think is also really interesting is how organizations are talking about AI and their desire for people in the business to use AI is incredibly varied, from very unsophisticated to super sophisticated and prescriptive. 00:22:55.839 --> 00:23:04.559 But in the end, people are doing exactly what they want to do with AI under the radar to make their working lives easier. 00:23:04.559 --> 00:23:08.640 It's a really curious cocktail, I think, that's emerging. 00:23:09.039 --> 00:23:19.119 It's interesting that I would have thought people would have been more embarrassed about using AI, or organizations would have been more prescriptive in saying we don't want you to use AI. 00:23:19.119 --> 00:23:20.880 And the opposite

has been the case. 00:23:20.880 --> 00:23:29.039 Actually, our clients are encouraging us to use AI, and they're looking for us to be progressive and have AI in our solutions. 00:23:29.039 --> 00:23:33.440 And it's not seen to be a dirty thing or an naughty thing to be using AI. 00:23:33.440 --> 00:23:34.880 Actually, it's seen to be sensible. 00:23:34.880 --> 00:23:38.319 Strategic strategic to actually challenge our thinking. 00:23:38.319 --> 00:23:42.480 So that for me is the biggest surprise, I suppose. 00:23:42.480 --> 00:23:49.039 I think the fear, my fear, and I said this on a previous pod when we were talking about AI with Simon from Vodafone. 00:23:49.039 --> 00:23:58.319 My fear is that because our bodies adapt to the environment and to our situation, that one day we're going to be walking around as pinheads, we're going to have tiny little heads on big bodies. 00:23:58.319 --> 00:24:03.519 Because actually our brains have shrunk because we've given all of our knowledge to Claude or to Gerald. 00:24:03.519 --> 00:24:05.039 And we have none left ourselves. 00:24:05.039 --> 00:24:06.160 We can't answer a question ourselves. 00:24:06.160 --> 00:24:06.880 We can't think about it. 00:24:07.039 --> 00:24:08.079 No creative thinking there. 00:24:08.480 --> 00:24:09.519 No creative thinking. 00:24:09.519 --> 00:24:11.519 We just go, oh, I've got a question. 00:24:11.519 --> 00:24:13.119 I don't need to think about it. 00:24:13.119 --> 00:24:15.599 I can just answer it through one of my systems. 00:24:16.000 --> 00:24:29.200 I think that's a very real risk that people get lazy and the quality of conversation thinking around the way it's used is lacking, and it sort of becomes a problem because you get sort of rubbish in, rubbish out. 00:24:29.200 --> 00:24:35.759 I've had the science board look at this quite a lot, and there's no doubt work is going to change very radically. 00:24:35.759 --> 00:24:48.079 I was with a client last week, and towards the end of this workshop, which was about organizational design, I found myself saying, I never imagined I would be in this sort of conversation. 00:24:48.079 --> 00:24:52.880 What you've just said to me is in essence, we've got two choices. 00:24:52.880 --> 00:25:02.720 We can rebuild this software platform using humans, and it will cost us about 1.5 million US dollars, and it will take about three months. 00:25:02.720 --> 00:25:17.039 Or we can use Claude, it will cost us $200, and we can have it done in 48 hours with the aid of two humans that will cost us about $100,000, and who will oversee it ethically. 00:25:17.039 --> 00:25:26.640 And I think every shareholder in every business around the world right now is waking up to the efficiency gains that they can get from deploying AI. 00:25:26.640 --> 00:25:38.559 And every worker is now wondering how can I use more AI to be more effective, or what's the risk to me personally and my future at work? 00:25:38.559 --> 00:25:40.319 It's an extraordinary thing. 00:25:40.640 --> 00:25:43.039 It is, and we're using it a huge amount in our business. 00:25:43.039 --> 00:25:52.000 We have a closed system, so we use it ethically, we use it appropriately, of course, because... blimey, Sarah would have our guts for garters if we didn't. 00:25:52.000 --> 00:25:58.400 But we're encouraging the team to because of that exactly that innovation, efficiency, challenging our thinking. 00:25:58.400 --> 00:26:01.519 But also it's just we are learning as well as we're going. 00:26:01.759 --> 00:26:04.720 It's a brilliant way to learn because it democratizes everything, doesn't it? 00:26:04.720 --> 00:26:04.960 Really? 00:26:04.960 --> 00:26:08.000 And it it allows you to achieve so much more. 00:26:08.000 --> 00:26:10.559 I mean, I think about this a lot. 00:26:10.559 --> 00:26:17.039 So Luke McKeever, our CEO, is just releasing a paper now this week called Automated Capitalism. 00:26:17.039 --> 00:26:20.079 He's on the International Talent Forum as a speaker. 00:26:20.079 --> 00:26:32.000 It's a futuristic look at what could happen to humanity if the AI march goes forward without us building in the ethical frameworks and the human part into organisations. 00:26:32.000 --> 00:26:41.839 There's a doomsday potential scenario, but for me it's more about how could we use AI to enhance human connection and enhance human effectiveness. 00:26:41.839 --> 00:26:58.400 It can help us be more effective in the way we do human connection, but we have to build it in at the outset, otherwise it's likely to displace human connection because there are so many communications, aren't there, from so many different channels in an abundant way. 00:26:58.400 --> 00:27:01.920 The thing that differentiates us is the human relationship. 00:27:01.920 --> 00:27:09.279 And we have to think about building this in early, or the horse will bolt and we'll be left with something we hadn't planned for. 00:27:09.599 --> 00:27:14.799 Could you give me an example, John, of how AI could help with human connection? 00:27:14.799 --> 00:27:25.519 Because I would think it would do the opposite, because people are working in isolation, answering the questions themselves with the help of Claude or Gerald, as we call it, internally. 00:27:25.519 --> 00:27:27.759 Rather than me going to Caitlin, I'll just go online. 00:27:28.160 --> 00:27:28.720 Or do you think? 00:27:28.720 --> 00:27:29.519 Or yeah. 00:27:29.839 --> 00:27:31.359 Yeah, um, I can. 00:27:31.359 --> 00:27:34.319 Um I mean I use it myself now in that way. 00:27:34.319 --> 00:27:46.880 So if I do a coaching session, I get consent to record it, and then I will run it through AI afterwards and ask it to give me feedback on how I've come across, how I've connected, what I could do better next time. 00:27:47.359 --> 00:27:49.839 Self-development could you do better next time, John? 00:27:52.240 --> 00:27:56.559 Have a clearer plan and stick to the objectives. 00:27:57.759 --> 00:27:58.400 Nice.

00:27:58.400 --> 00:27:59.680 Okay, noted. 00:28:00.480 --> 00:28:05.759 Rather than iterate and go off in different directions according to the individual's energy. 00:28:05.759 --> 00:28:09.279 But I do think you know it can be used at a very pragmatic level. 00:28:09.279 --> 00:28:26.640 For example, if you ask an AI to tell you what it knows about you, about your personality, about your style, and how you could be better at doing relationships with colleagues, it will give you some sound advice and you can peg it up to the next level. 00:28:26.640 --> 00:28:32.559 Because if you've got a bit of data about your colleagues and you're meeting them, the AI will brief you. 00:28:32.559 --> 00:28:34.880 Last time you met, this is what happened. 00:28:34.880 --> 00:28:48.559 Remember, Amanda's style is direct and positive, and she enjoys an agenda, and your style is a bit more fluid, John, and ideas-oriented, and so a productive meeting might look like this. 00:28:48.559 --> 00:29:10.240 Or perhaps if we were forming a team for a project, we might get the AI to enable the team in a team bonding session early on, and to get us to think about how we can do connection faster, get there sooner, and where the blocks or obstacles might be in our styles based on our personality scores, for example, and our connection styles. 00:29:10.240 --> 00:29:16.400 So there are ways to sort of harness it as a pair of hands to think about how I do relationships better. 00:29:16.720 --> 00:29:17.519 I like that. 00:29:17.519 --> 00:29:24.000 I wonder if I would be able to do that now, put it in just from all the searches I've done, how we would be described. 00:29:24.319 --> 00:29:35.039 But I also think it's funny because you could argue that if you ask the AI, there's almost a sense of you might not have a bad relationship with the AI, but this is assuming you've got a good relationship with the AI. 00:29:35.039 --> 00:29:41.039 So when it's telling you, okay, you know, think about how you can come across, you've got no kind of defensiveness. 00:29:41.039 --> 00:29:51.839 Whereas if you were speaking to a real person and there was maybe some history there and they're kind of guiding you, there might be more of a barrier because of that relationship you have with that person. 00:29:51.839 --> 00:29:54.000 So you might be less inclined to take their advice. 00:29:54.000 --> 00:29:59.839 So I think that's a roundabout way of saying that in a way, yeah, I guess with the AI, there isn't that history. 00:29:59.839 --> 00:30:02.079 You probably just think I like this AI. 00:30:02.079 --> 00:30:03.359 Does that make sense? 00:30:03.359 --> 00:30:08.240 Yeah, I mean, well, it's it's it doesn't, it doesn't. 00:30:08.319 --> 00:30:18.559 And to Mark Zaunders' insights on this, you know, there are hundreds of millions of people using AI in this companionship, mentorship, therapeutic type way. 00:30:18.559 --> 00:30:36.319 I mean, a few weeks ago I was involved in the Cheltenham

festivals and have an amazing, I'm a patron, a science festival and a literature festival, and I met an author of a book, a lady uh who's a single mum, and had written a book about how she'd incorporated Claude into the family. 00:30:36.640 --> 00:30:36.960 Okay. 00:30:37.440 --> 00:30:43.039 So in the absence of the father, Claude was very much part of their family unit. 00:30:43.039 --> 00:30:45.759 So two children, a mum and Claude. 00:30:45.759 --> 00:30:55.200 And the book goes on to describe how valuable it all was in providing facilitation for the family to have better conversations and better connection. 00:30:55.200 --> 00:30:56.640 It's really quite extraordinary. 00:30:57.039 --> 00:30:57.599 Goodness. 00:30:57.599 --> 00:31:01.200 So, what does all of this mean then, John, for organizations? 00:31:01.200 --> 00:31:04.799 What's the practical takeaway for the people who are listening? 00:31:05.200 --> 00:31:08.000 Well, clearly change is coming and coming fast. 00:31:08.000 --> 00:31:24.079 Humans need to think about how they embrace and use AI well, and how organizations need to think about how they recognize human talent, look after it, keep it connected and nurture it. 00:31:24.079 --> 00:31:35.920 And I think for me, at a practical level, the real issue is we know from Gallup surveys about engagement that the vast majority of the workforce are already disengaged. 00:31:35.920 --> 00:31:42.720 And I think the exam question really for organizations is how do I reduce the cost of disconnection? 00:31:42.720 --> 00:31:52.880 So, how do I understand it and how do I do something about it so that humans that are in the organization journeying through change become more connected? 00:31:52.880 --> 00:32:02.960 Because if they can be more connected, they are the differentiator that will keep the organization sustainable above and beyond the progress of AI. 00:32:02.960 --> 00:32:17.359 They are the heart, and I think at a practical level, therefore, we need to measure connection at individual, team, and culture level and diagnose, understand how we're doing and how we benchmark against other organizations. 00:32:17.359 --> 00:32:19.440 So, connection index, if you like. 00:32:19.440 --> 00:32:26.240 And at a personal level, I think we all need to remember that as we journey through change, we've got to keep human connection alive. 00:32:26.240 --> 00:32:41.920 My daughter yesterday came back after doing her GCSE art day- one, bless her, and told me just about at the start of it, one of her peers in the class was in a terrible state and essentially looked disconnected and anxious. 00:32:41.920 --> 00:32:45.839 And my daughter Lila went over to her and just said, Are you okay? 00:32:45.839 --> 00:32:48.880 And the response was no, I'm not, and tears. 00:32:48.880 --> 00:32:55.200 And my daughter literally physically connected with her, put her arms around and said, Look, it's gonna be okay. 00:32:55.200 --> 00:33:08.720 This came to light last night at dinner because the girl who Lila doesn't really know very well Snapchatted her and sent this lovely message all about human connection and how much difference it had made. 00:33:08.720 --> 00:33:12.799 So that human touch, you know, so important at a practical level. 00:33:12.799 --> 00:33:19.920 Remember, we're human, AI is gonna help you, but you've got to put time in, particularly managers and leaders, to the human. 00:33:20.160 --> 00:33:20.880 I love that. 00:33:20.880 --> 00:33:23.200 John, that's a brilliant way to the point of the story. 00:33:23.200 --> 00:33:24.640 I love the story to end. 00:33:24.640 --> 00:33:31.279 I think that's a great reminder, isn't it, to make sure we connect with people who matter, whether it's at work or at home. 00:33:31.279 --> 00:33:42.960 I think if we go back to that research you referred to at the beginning, that we are more likely to live happy, long lives if we have great human connections and friends. 00:33:42.960 --> 00:33:47.680 But the more we're isolated from our friends and family, the less likely that's to be the case. 00:33:47.839 --> 00:33:49.440 I think it's a pillar of resilience. 00:33:50.000 --> 00:33:56.400 Yeah, I love that point about chemistry as well, you know, that the chemistry of the group and the connections that people have. 00:33:56.400 --> 00:33:57.680 I think it's so fundamental. 00:33:57.680 --> 00:34:00.240 So this has been a real something that's been great for me. 00:34:00.240 --> 00:34:03.200 It's really helped me think about what really matters for people. 00:34:03.200 --> 00:34:04.319 So it's been really good. 00:34:04.319 --> 00:34:04.880 Thank you, John. 00:34:05.200 --> 00:34:05.759 Thank you, Amanda. 00:34:05.759 --> 00:34:07.839 It's great to connect with you both. 00:34:07.839 --> 00:34:18.320 I hope we can connect more around this human connection movement that I'm sort of sparking and a summit that we've got planned in 2027. 00:34:18.320 --> 00:34:22.159 Very much hoping that Be Talent and Zircon might be involved. 00:34:22.159 --> 00:34:22.880 Please. 00:34:23.199 --> 00:34:24.159 Yeah, that'd be great. 00:34:24.159 --> 00:34:24.800 Yes, please. 00:34:24.800 --> 00:34:26.639 Especially as our thinking so aligned. 00:34:26.639 --> 00:34:30.480 We may use slightly different language, but I think the essence is pretty much the same. 00:34:30.800 --> 00:34:31.360 Well, thank you. 00:34:31.360 --> 00:34:32.400 Thank you, John, as well. 00:34:32.400 --> 00:34:35.760 From going from a listener to now being a guest on the podcast. 00:34:35.760 --> 00:34:36.719 I hope you enjoyed it. 00:34:36.719 --> 00:34:37.840 We definitely did. 00:34:38.159 --> 00:34:40.000 Yeah, congratulations on the podcast. 00:34:40.000 --> 00:34:40.960 It's very cool. 00:34:41.199 --> 00:34:42.000 It is very cool. 00:34:42.000 --> 00:34:42.639 You're right. 00:34:42.639 --> 00:34:47.840 And thank you, everyone, who listens and subscribes, and shares, and shares feedback with us. 00:34:47.840 --> 00:34:50.960 I hope you all have a wonderful and successful day.