התמלול המלא של Evolving in Photography through Personal Projects with David Julian

--> 00:04:36.593 but as soon as I would get my slides back as it were, cause I was shooting transparency film and negative film at the time, I would be able to look at them and say that didn't work. 00:04:36.593 --> 00:04:37.324 That didn't work. 00:04:37.324 --> 00:04:38.084 And that didn't work. 00:04:38.084 --> 00:04:38.913 What did I do wrong? 00:04:38.913 --> 00:04:41.324 And so it was a process of self teaching. 00:04:41.324 --> 00:04:46.108 Through my memory more than through having metadata, which, of course, no one had back then. 00:04:46.658 --> 00:04:47.009 Right. 00:04:47.235 --> 00:05:01.625 so yes, I would say that today, with all the information online and cameras that give you such quick, instant feedback of your work, it's not as hard as it seems, and I think a lot of people put fear in front of the actual learning process. 00:05:01.625 --> 00:05:03.596 as a teacher, I teach quite a bit. 00:05:03.596 --> 00:05:08.593 my belief is that It's very easy to learn if you let yourself learn it. 00:05:09.278 --> 00:05:11.228 going to write that down because I absolutely love that. 00:05:11.228 --> 00:05:13.048 It's easy to learn if you let yourself learn it. 00:05:13.048 --> 00:05:18.858 going back to when you first got those prints back from when you were shooting film and you were like, that doesn't work, that doesn't work. 00:05:18.858 --> 00:05:26.442 Was there a common theme for things that you typically wouldn't, I don't want to say wouldn't get right, but that you would want to be better in your images? 00:05:26.997 --> 00:05:29.666 Yes, I would underexpose my images routinely. 00:05:29.666 --> 00:05:38.576 And I think it was that I was told by somebody that the best way to expose Kodachrome was slightly underexpose it. 00:05:38.576 --> 00:05:39.297 And 00:05:39.377 --> 00:05:49.454 it turned out that I was taking that far too seriously, and I was underexposing it by a stop or stop and a half, which is unrecoverable, because at the time, of course, we were not working digitally. 00:05:49.454 --> 00:05:52.684 And I was making slide film, which meant that's what you get. 00:05:52.684 --> 00:05:54.363 There was no enlarger. 00:05:54.363 --> 00:05:55.463 There was no digital. 00:05:55.463 --> 00:05:59.983 I mean, there was no optical or chemical process by which I could correct for that at the time. 00:05:59.983 --> 00:06:05.107 So I started to learn about pushing and pulling film, and basically, I began bracketing. 00:06:05.107 --> 00:06:06.502 And that's really what saved me. 00:06:06.502 --> 00:06:16.721 And I thought, okay, I'm gonna go through a lot of film, but it gave me a lot more keepers and I started to realize what it was that I needed to do better, in terms of my exposures. 00:06:16.721 --> 00:06:25.766 And really started to see us a landscape, if it were, or macro, and say, okay, this is going to require that I overcompensate just a little bit here and there. 00:06:26.555 --> 00:06:32.949 Okay, so when you would see those

photos and you would see that they were underexposed, that's a pretty, I think, easy thing to understand. 00:06:32.949 --> 00:06:34.119 these are too dark, right? 00:06:34.119 --> 00:06:35.608 And that I need to introduce more light. 00:06:35.608 --> 00:06:39.009 for you, was it, were you reading a meter wrong? 00:06:39.009 --> 00:06:40.218 what do you think that disconnect was? 00:06:40.488 --> 00:06:47.048 Well, part of it was that I realized that, I was really quite taken by the polarizing filter that I purchased. 00:06:47.048 --> 00:06:50.139 And that you cannot polarize every situation. 00:06:50.139 --> 00:06:52.238 Especially when you're polarizing into shadows. 00:06:52.238 --> 00:06:57.759 Especially when you're polarizing people of color and doing portraiture in, what I'd call less than ideal light. 00:06:57.759 --> 00:06:59.028 Such as the rainforest. 00:06:59.028 --> 00:07:02.129 This is where I started to really do my most seminal work at the time. 00:07:02.129 --> 00:07:04.944 And so I simply learned, okay, you can't do that. 00:07:04.944 --> 00:07:09.944 You can't polarize certain skin tones unless there's quite a bit of light to compensate for that or else. 00:07:09.944 --> 00:07:13.947 it takes out the shine and the things that make people look three dimensional. 00:07:13.947 --> 00:07:19.086 So it was just a matter of trial and error and honestly, there's no substitute for trial and error. 00:07:19.086 --> 00:07:25.310 A lot of people feel that error means bad and the word trial and error doesn't mean bad person. 00:07:25.310 --> 00:07:29.490 It means a bad photograph and there's a huge difference and I may be. 00:07:29.490 --> 00:07:40.651 Sounding a little too psychological here, but from, I don't know, 26 years of teaching, I think what I've learned is that some of the big barriers that people put up about learning are really a fear of not being good. 00:07:40.651 --> 00:07:43.851 And good isn't as important as do. 00:07:43.851 --> 00:07:45.242 Keep doing, doing, doing. 00:07:45.732 --> 00:07:47.632 Plus, what is good, right? 00:07:47.632 --> 00:07:50.122 it's hard to define in something that's objective. 00:07:50.122 --> 00:07:50.661 Yeah, exactly. 00:07:50.661 --> 00:07:53.891 now that, you've been shooting for, quite a number of years. 00:07:53.891 --> 00:07:56.271 and you've had quite a bit of experience of your belt. 00:07:56.271 --> 00:08:09.391 I'm always interested to hear, like when you look back at those first photos, obviously some of them were underexposed, but aside from that, was there anything in those photos that if you were to look at them today, if say a student brought them to you, you would say, These are amateur photos. 00:08:09.834 --> 00:08:12.115 Well, gee, I think all my photos were amateur photos. 00:08:12.115 --> 00:08:12.543 Well, of course. 00:08:12.543 --> 00:08:13.394 Because no one paid me to make them. 00:08:14.074 --> 00:08:19.545 I guess, I mean, like, what, what were those elements that were

in the photos that would stand out to you today as amateur photos? 00:08:19.795 --> 00:08:26.194 In my mind's eye right now, I'm recalling some of my earliest work, which I actually still have, and it was not getting close enough. 00:08:26.194 --> 00:08:29.084 it wasn't a matter of not having the right lens. 00:08:29.084 --> 00:08:33.269 It was a matter of me physically not having the right lens choosing to be closer to my subject. 00:08:33.269 --> 00:08:38.287 And I think that that was a little bit of my own fear of confrontation and looking through a camera. 00:08:38.287 --> 00:08:43.187 And maybe it's from growing up and having people put cameras in my face a lot during parties and whatever. 00:08:43.187 --> 00:08:45.307 And I felt a little bit more resistant to that. 00:08:45.307 --> 00:08:49.187 So getting close, learning your exposure triangle and. 00:08:49.187 --> 00:08:51.354 Getting out and keep doing it and doing it and doing it 00:08:51.504 --> 00:08:51.913 mm hmm. 00:08:51.913 --> 00:08:59.980 what were some of those first things that you were photographing because you mentioned at one point like the Amazon so like tell me how your journey through photography Progressed and where it took you. 00:09:00.570 --> 00:09:01.360 Oh boy here goes. 00:09:01.360 --> 00:09:02.730 We're gonna dive into a rabbit hole there. 00:09:02.730 --> 00:09:26.371 We go you know I really love surrealist painting growing up and The camera gave me a chance to try to do things that were a little off color or a little bit different than the National Geographic photographs that I highly revered and put on pedestals and my actual goal was to go to places that I'd seen in these magazines sometime in my life and photograph, but I knew that until I did that, I needed to also express myself. 00:09:26.371 --> 00:09:31.787 So the camera gave me a place where I could take a walk on the railroad tracks of a extinct railroad and. 00:09:31.787 --> 00:09:37.197 Massachusetts, where I grew up and see what was there, see what had been cast off or left on the tracks. 00:09:37.197 --> 00:09:44.697 And so I made a lot of photographs of odd things, junk, a lot of people would call it and people would say, why are you photographing garbage? 00:09:44.697 --> 00:09:47.267 You know, there's all these people out there and landscapes. 00:09:47.267 --> 00:09:51.236 Well, it's because I actually think it's interesting to see what people cast off. 00:09:51.236 --> 00:09:53.754 And so those were some of my earliest photographs. 00:09:53.754 --> 00:10:03.601 That and, taking portraits of schoolmates, trying to do sports, but failing terribly at it because I didn't know enough about the game to make the right, to make, make the right decisions. 00:10:03.601 --> 00:10:12.024 But I think that the camera gave me a place, it gave me a reason to walk alone in the woods and really see more deeply what I had been passing by. 00:10:12.024 --> 00:10:21.677 So my earliest photographs were a combination

of attempts at art, versus nature, nature, nature, macro landscape, heavy into nature, 00:10:21.797 --> 00:10:22.667 heavy into nature. 00:10:22.667 --> 00:10:27.610 I think, when preparing for this interview, obviously kind of trying to dive into some of your work. 00:10:27.610 --> 00:10:36.206 I think if anybody looks at your Instagram, it's kind of difficult to put your images like in a single or even a handful of categories, right? 00:10:36.206 --> 00:10:37.485 so I'll leave it to you. 00:10:37.485 --> 00:10:40.410 Can you tell me, what do you primarily shoot today? 00:10:40.927 --> 00:10:42.876 I primarily shoot photographs. 00:10:42.876 --> 00:10:44.197 Perfect. 00:10:44.197 --> 00:10:44.876 Next question. 00:10:44.876 --> 00:10:46.517 Um, yeah. 00:10:46.517 --> 00:10:51.996 Um, it's been something in my life that I've always come up against is specialization. 00:10:51.996 --> 00:10:54.787 You know, the law of Darwinism says specialize or perish. 00:10:54.787 --> 00:10:58.397 But for me, I love to photograph so many different things. 00:10:58.397 --> 00:11:02.741 And, for me, sometimes I'm in the mood to do something about natural history. 00:11:02.741 --> 00:11:12.408 I want to make photographs of mushrooms as they come out in the fall or spring here in Seattle, or I might be interested in photographing people downtown on the street. 00:11:12.408 --> 00:11:15.068 So really, for me, I don't have. 00:11:15.068 --> 00:11:22.749 a true pull in any one direction unless I'm traveling and that usually dictates what I'm going to focus on the most. 00:11:22.749 --> 00:11:26.038 When I'm in the city, I'm photographing what's happening in the city. 00:11:26.038 --> 00:11:28.229 And when I'm in the woods, I photograph what's happening there. 00:11:28.229 --> 00:11:31.828 but people have never been able to nail me with a type of photography. 00:11:31.828 --> 00:11:36.428 I'm not a wedding photographer or an architectural photographer, but I've shot both and I love it. 00:11:36.428 --> 00:11:40.058 So a generalist, And a passionate generalist 00:11:40.599 --> 00:11:42.028 A passionate generalist. 00:11:42.028 --> 00:12:10.335 I like that I know that you know oftentimes new photographers can get stuck when it comes to figuring out like should I niche down because they're told that from everybody But then there's photographers like you there's photographers like Joe McNally who are like, no, I'm a generalist I will shoot anything that comes in front of my camera This may be a strange question But do you think that niching down comes specifically just from a business standpoint or do you think that you can still be guess I don't want to say successful cause that's a dependent on whatever your definition would be. 00:12:10.335 --> 00:12:13.004 But do you think that you can be a, proficient photographer? 00:12:13.004 --> 00:12:17.105 Do you think that you can dive deep enough into one area of photography? 00:12:17.105 --> 00:12:21.325 Do you think that you can learn enough about photography while shooting everything? 00:12:21.325 --> 00:12:24.014 I don't even know if that's a good question, but hopefully you can pull something out of that. 00:12:24.434 --> 00:12:26.965 it's actually a very well put question. 00:12:26.965 --> 00:12:33.695 And even if it may have been difficult to ask, I think what it pointed to is the fact that we don't really know how to define the word generalist. 00:12:33.695 --> 00:12:47.965 For me, when I teach students who are new to photography, as in my University of Washington course, They are not concerned with being a particular kind of photographer, so they're trying everything and I honestly think that's one of the best ways to learn. 00:12:47.965 --> 00:12:53.184 Specialization comes later when you decide this is something I'm really good at and this is something I'm drawn to. 00:12:53.184 --> 00:12:55.914 You just have to kind of answer that question inside. 00:12:55.914 --> 00:13:00.615 But I think you can become an excellent photographer by diversifying, at least at first. 00:13:00.615 --> 00:13:10.524 and trying a lot of different things because they present different situations to problem solve technically, as well as logistically with how you respond to your subject. 00:13:10.524 --> 00:13:12.683 I was basically very shy. 00:13:12.683 --> 00:13:17.754 So, uh, didn't really like facing people with my camera until much, much later in my adult life. 00:13:17.754 --> 00:13:27.153 So that determined that I would be a landscape photographer and nature photographer pretty much for life, except for when I was traveling and I'd shoot the streets as it were. 00:13:27.153 --> 00:13:45.214 But, Yeah, we all go through phases in life, phases that are Based on our environment or our families and things that happen in our life and my phase was shy turning into bold street hunter when I started to photograph in the cities by traveling, purposefully to different urban environments. 00:13:45.214 --> 00:13:56.874 think I've morphed over time, and the personal projects that I've given myself have always been very different areas of type of photography on purpose to try something new to try a photojournalistic project. 00:13:56.923 --> 00:14:06.484 When it comes to those personal projects, I love talking about personal projects cause I think it really can give insight into what people are genuinely interested in. 00:14:06.484 --> 00:14:22.524 And I think one of the things that I hear a lot from listeners of the podcast or that they are scared to take photography full time, they're scared to start charging for photography because they're worried that they're going to lose that passion. 00:14:22.524 --> 00:14:23.528 that they have. 00:14:23.528 --> 00:14:37.349 but as somebody who shoots a lot of, personal projects, is there anything that you can say to the benefit of the creativity, of the process of creating these images without being commissioned, I guess, or are you being

commissioned for your projects? 00:15:09.879 --> 00:15:11.028 it depends on the project. 00:15:11.028 --> 00:15:29.651 There are things that I spend a whole year doing on the side that I leave a set up to do when I'm doing something such as some of the fine art, projects I've done using assembled objects and telling stories with objects, but honestly, if I can address that, I feel that, Commerce and motivation have to be clearly defined. 00:15:29.651 --> 00:15:35.121 If the only reason you're using a camera is to make money, then you'd better choose something that makes money with a camera. 00:15:35.121 --> 00:15:41.761 And that's not difficult to break into and compete with, but the true passion of photography should be separated. 00:15:41.761 --> 00:15:52.396 In my opinion, from the commerce of photography at first, and I think that's one of the things that gives permission to people to try different things and see what really resonates. 00:15:52.396 --> 00:15:59.016 Because my belief is that unless you take a corporate job with photography, you're going to be best at what you're really passionate about. 00:15:59.016 --> 00:16:00.626 And you're not going to find out what that is. 00:16:00.626 --> 00:16:14.349 until you try a lot of different things and personal projects are the best way of motivating yourself to try different things without The overhead, as it were, of worrying about the income and pleasing anybody, you should only be pleasing yourself. 00:16:14.349 --> 00:16:20.242 That doesn't mean you should be getting your entire ego wrapped around the likes you get on social media. 00:16:20.242 --> 00:16:21.562 That's a huge trap. 00:16:21.562 --> 00:16:32.057 And I know that I'm not of the generation where social media is something that we were born with, but I think it's very important for people to develop healthy outlook on their work without needing the. 00:16:32.057 --> 00:16:37.918 affirmations of many, many, many people say it's good, you know, when it's good, 00:16:38.471 --> 00:16:53.727 you know, when it's good, but how cause I, okay, I'm going to challenge you there because there's people in the beginner photography podcast community who will, be shooting for a long time and I will look at their work and say that they are a proficient photographer and they will post a photo in the group and say is this any good? 00:16:53.727 --> 00:16:56.067 so where do you think that comes from? 00:16:56.520 --> 00:17:00.735 I think it comes from the inquiry of wanting verification that your work is good. 00:17:00.735 --> 00:17:13.075 I think that when a person gets a very, very small signal of excitement from looking at their own photographs because it's better than the others around it on their computer or on their light box if they're still shooting film or whatever. 00:17:13.075 --> 00:17:23.846 I think that there's a tendency for us to, to Be drawn to one frame versus another, but to still want affirmation or acknowledgement that is true

from someone who's been shooting longer. 00:17:23.846 --> 00:17:28.976 And I think that's why it's very important for people to study photography, not just do photography. 00:17:28.976 --> 00:17:38.576 I think I'm almost a hundred percent self taught, but when I really think about it, am I, it's just that I may have not had an instructor, but I was not self taught. 00:17:38.576 --> 00:17:41.715 Self taught would have meant that I saw no books. 00:17:41.715 --> 00:17:43.935 I saw no museum exhibits. 00:17:43.935 --> 00:17:45.105 I saw no gallery shows. 00:17:45.105 --> 00:17:46.786 We're not really self taught. 00:17:46.786 --> 00:17:50.175 We're just simply choosing how we decide to teach ourselves. 00:17:50.175 --> 00:17:56.235 And teaching ourselves can even be by taking full college courses or many, many, many workshops. 00:17:56.235 --> 00:18:00.925 You're still teaching yourself, but you have other people to tell you, here's how I do it. 00:18:00.925 --> 00:18:03.205 Here's why this photograph is incredible. 00:18:03.205 --> 00:18:04.365 And this one's really not. 00:18:04.365 --> 00:18:06.670 It's a matter of just filtering information. 00:18:06.670 --> 00:18:09.792 But I do think it's important for people to get. 00:18:09.792 --> 00:18:11.097 Outside opinions. 00:18:11.097 --> 00:18:14.268 And that's where mentorship comes in or courses like yours. 00:18:14.268 --> 00:18:21.707 any way that you can get other eyes on your work that are educated and experienced is a very good thing. 00:18:21.707 --> 00:18:24.274 I think the trap is when people. 00:18:24.274 --> 00:18:26.914 Don't ask the right people those questions. 00:18:26.954 --> 00:18:28.954 Yeah, see, that's, difficult, right? 00:18:28.954 --> 00:18:30.855 and that's, again, something that I struggle with as well. 00:18:30.855 --> 00:18:41.627 And I think it was David Duchemin who said that, the perfect photography school would be simply one camera, one lens, like a thousand rolls of film, Don't come back until you've shot all of them, right? 00:18:41.627 --> 00:18:43.728 Don't talk to me until they've all been shot, right? 00:18:43.728 --> 00:18:49.137 there has to be this journey of self discovery and like what you like in a photo. 00:18:49.137 --> 00:19:05.238 let me ask you, because this is another thing, because I think that a lot of people like the idea of going to school or getting a course, obviously because they can have somebody who they can get feedback from, but also because it gives them a sense of direction in which And where they should go, right? 00:19:05.377 --> 00:19:05.807 Yes. 00:19:05.947 --> 00:19:18.721 So with you doing a lot of, personal projects, projects, where you come up with this idea in your head, are you giving yourself, certain constraints to follow in order to better a certain aspect of your photography? 00:19:18.721 --> 00:19:25.176 Or are you just going just for the final image and everything else kind of figure out after the fact? 00:19:25.176 --> 00:19:26.007 Does that make sense? 00:19:26.307 --> 00:19:27.909 Yeah, think I can make sense of that. 00:19:27.909 --> 00:19:51.267 I feel like I will have what I call an intention, and I will define that intention by making notes, sometimes even drawings of what I want, if I'm doing something that's based on still life that I'm going to probably make some kind of thumbnail sketches or doodles that'll give me some ideas on how I want to light something the rest of its pure experimentation on that kind of project. 00:19:51.267 --> 00:19:57.696 But if I'm learning street, I'm going to look at a lot of great street photography, decide why it is that I love that particular. 00:19:57.696 --> 00:19:58.991 Photograph for another one. 00:19:58.991 --> 00:20:15.970 And then I'm going to say I want to do work that has that kind of power and all the while I am going to post some images, but I'm not going to decide that's my endgame, is to, Oh, I'm doing this in order to get a lot of likes, or I'm doing this in order to get a lot of feedback. 00:20:15.970 --> 00:20:17.879 But it's necessary that I get some. 00:20:17.879 --> 00:20:25.065 Even at this point of my life, I'm sometimes my worst critic, so I do need someone else to say, This is actually the better photograph, not the one that you're going to post. 00:20:25.065 --> 00:20:29.101 You've chosen so it's somewhat of an emotional decision as well as a tactical one. 00:20:29.101 --> 00:20:31.451 And I love what David said. 00:20:31.451 --> 00:20:38.065 and I think he's a brilliant person to follow is that we need to keep practicing, keep practicing to keep practicing. 00:20:38.065 --> 00:20:46.744 I think the piece of that sentence that might be missing for me is we do need to show our work in order to know that we're in the right track and doing the right work. 00:20:47.587 --> 00:20:47.998 Again. 00:20:47.998 --> 00:20:48.228 Yeah. 00:20:48.228 --> 00:20:50.617 that's another thing that that's another part of the equation. 00:20:50.617 --> 00:20:54.687 It's like if, as I think it was, I feel like I'm just full of quotes on this one. 00:20:54.687 --> 00:20:59.647 Like it was the Ansel Adams or whatever, who said, there's two people in every photograph, the photographer and the viewer. 00:20:59.647 --> 00:21:00.478 It's so great. 00:21:00.478 --> 00:21:00.697 Yeah. 00:21:00.697 --> 00:21:05.597 But, I wonder sometimes, as the photographer, how much do you care about the viewer? 00:21:05.597 --> 00:21:06.962 think about that? 00:21:06.962 --> 00:21:11.603 Do you think that that matters, or is it more about you, the photographer? 00:21:11.806 --> 00:21:18.745 I think that's a really great question because it's important to, as an individual, make that decision. 00:21:18.745 --> 00:21:29.255 If you're the kind of person who's insecure enough that you feel like you can't judge your own work, or you're too harsh a judge on your own work, and you really do need someone else to say, This is a better photograph

than another one. 00:21:29.255 --> 00:21:31.846 Then, that's one type of person. 00:21:31.846 --> 00:21:42.001 Other people are not that fully invested in the emotion of their own work, and they have a chance to be much more open to, you Outside inquiry or outside choices. 00:21:42.001 --> 00:21:58.596 And I think that everyone who uses a camera, no matter how good they are in their own mind, or no matter how bad they are in their own mind, all they need to do is keep finding people, mentors or workshops or classes or groups or camera clubs meetups. 00:21:58.596 --> 00:22:00.385 anyway, you can interact with other people. 00:22:00.385 --> 00:22:02.096 We'll do three things for you. 00:22:02.096 --> 00:22:10.281 It'll make you a better photographer because you're around great photographers, mediocre photographers, and sometimes not so great photographers. 00:22:10.281 --> 00:22:15.026 It'll make you a better photographer because you're practicing and you're showing your work and you're getting input. 00:22:15.026 --> 00:22:20.185 It's part of the clan mentality of the human relationship to other humans. 00:22:20.185 --> 00:22:21.485 We can't be isolated. 00:22:21.485 --> 00:22:22.296 We can't be alone. 00:22:22.296 --> 00:22:26.125 that's basically walking into a box and staying there. 00:22:26.125 --> 00:22:35.806 And I think that As creative as you may feel when you're alone walking in the woods with your camera and that may be your need for solitude or space or to repair if you're peopled out. 00:22:35.806 --> 00:22:42.068 It's also important to have community and this in what you're doing, Raymond, is community. 00:22:42.068 --> 00:22:45.831 you're building exactly what people need, especially for beginning photographers. 00:22:45.831 --> 00:22:46.761 It's fantastic. 00:22:46.761 --> 00:22:48.095 That's why people are tuning in. 00:22:48.315 --> 00:22:48.774 Thank you. 00:22:48.835 --> 00:22:49.214 Thank you. 00:22:49.214 --> 00:22:50.014 They believe that. 00:22:50.659 --> 00:22:59.129 What do you think about people like Vivian Maher, who went their entire lives, without, some of her closest family knowing that she was a photographer? 00:22:59.129 --> 00:23:03.287 How do you think somebody like her becomes the photographer that she was? 00:23:03.287 --> 00:23:08.257 Do you think it's a lot of her looking at her photos, breaking them down, and then trying to be better? 00:23:08.539 --> 00:23:12.819 I would say that over time that must be what it is or must be what it was. 00:23:12.819 --> 00:23:19.376 The film doesn't show the giant piles of tens of thousands of photographs that she rejected herself. 00:23:19.376 --> 00:23:21.126 May or may not have thrown out. 00:23:21.126 --> 00:23:32.757 Um, I mean, I have a photograph somewhere on my phone of two complete garbage bags of slides that I decided to finally part with because I knew that I would never look at them again. 00:23:32.757 --> 00:23:33.529 So. 00:23:33.529 --> 00:23:35.517 think I might be straying off the question, but 00:23:36.096 --> 00:23:39.676 well, let me ask you out of those two garbage bags of slides that you threw away. 00:23:39.676 --> 00:23:43.027 How many from those roles do you think were keepers? 00:23:43.836 --> 00:23:45.970 Oh, probably one or two per role. 00:23:45.970 --> 00:23:46.869 Yeah. 00:23:46.869 --> 00:23:50.349 my hit rate was sometimes based on weather conditions. 00:23:50.349 --> 00:23:53.129 I was trying to fight it, especially if I was shooting in the tropics. 00:23:53.129 --> 00:23:55.960 And sometimes it was based on just not being connected. 00:23:55.960 --> 00:23:59.789 At the time I was making the photographs, I was just shooting cause I was there to shoot. 00:24:00.014 --> 00:24:00.474 Yeah. 00:24:00.575 --> 00:24:02.045 That wasn't connected in. 00:24:03.007 --> 00:24:03.606 Why do you think you weren't? 00:24:03.606 --> 00:24:06.253 Do you think it was, I'm sorry, I'll let you answer that question. 00:24:06.773 --> 00:24:07.693 Yeah, sure. 00:24:07.693 --> 00:24:15.003 I mean, I think I remember once going to a drag race when I first started shooting, cause I thought the action of that was something I really was attracted to. 00:24:15.003 --> 00:24:20.789 I didn't know the first thing about a drag racing or where to be or, or what lens to bring. 00:24:20.789 --> 00:24:28.355 And so I completely approached it poorly, but what I learned was maybe I'm not really cut out to do that. 00:24:28.355 --> 00:24:34.904 First of all, I feel deaf from having been there and, uh, it just wasn't something I was naturally. 00:24:34.904 --> 00:24:39.099 I didn't have that inner feeling of wow, I can't wait to get back here. 00:24:39.099 --> 00:24:44.009 Like maybe someone who's shooting pro sports for the first time just goes, my God, this is incredible. 00:24:44.020 --> 00:24:44.320 Right. 00:24:44.401 --> 00:24:50.651 but what I realized about myself and I think everyone does know this internally is what are you most attracted to? 00:24:50.651 --> 00:24:54.307 What environment, what gives you the most adrenaline or calm? 00:24:54.307 --> 00:24:55.843 what do you function best under? 00:24:55.843 --> 00:25:11.317 And it turns out that I function best under extremely calm situations, such as being alone in a fog in a meadow or by a pond, as well as being on an incredibly complexly busy street in a foreign country where I don't know the language. 00:25:11.317 --> 00:25:11.998 I function. 00:25:11.998 --> 00:25:13.883 Equally well in both conditions. 00:25:13.883 --> 00:25:16.019 And there's a lot in between that I don't. 00:25:16.420 --> 00:25:16.750 Hmm. 00:25:17.450 --> 00:25:18.549 I had a wedding with a camera. 00:25:18.549 --> 00:25:19.839 No good. 00:25:19.839 --> 00:25:22.799 It's not my thing, Yeah. 00:25:22.799 --> 00:25:26.329 I highly revere the people who make a lifestyle out of that and a good living. 00:25:26.389 --> 00:25:27.119 I'm trying to think. 00:25:27.119 --> 00:25:29.690 Yeah, I

guess, that is an interesting question to ask myself. 00:25:29.690 --> 00:25:32.029 Where do I thrive in the chaos or the calm? 00:25:32.029 --> 00:25:32.859 I think it's interesting. 00:25:32.859 --> 00:25:45.646 I think as a wedding photographer it almost becomes calming like over time because you really you know, you understand the cadence of a wedding you understand this is what's gonna happen next and you just try to go from there as long as you look for the light I don't know. 00:25:45.646 --> 00:25:47.171 you can always make the best out of anything. 00:25:47.171 --> 00:25:49.406 Anyway, back to personal projects out here real quick. 00:25:49.406 --> 00:25:57.143 When you have an idea, is it just maybe for a single image or is it for a series of images, that you want to accomplish? 00:25:57.143 --> 00:25:58.113 We'll start there. 00:25:58.440 --> 00:25:59.589 That's a good question too. 00:25:59.589 --> 00:26:01.835 I feel like I have a vision in my head. 00:26:01.835 --> 00:26:07.744 It could even be something that I dreamt, or maybe something that composited in my mind through other things I saw along the way. 00:26:07.744 --> 00:26:13.934 I have a vision of something, and I know that more than one of them would be a better story than just a single piece. 00:26:13.934 --> 00:26:18.961 That said, I have done projects where I've set up something to photograph over time. 00:26:18.961 --> 00:26:28.962 because that was part of the idea is, was the metamorphosis, and it turns out only one of those frames really was any good, and I had to go and find a different way of approaching the same subject. 00:26:28.962 --> 00:26:37.903 I think, again, it comes down to practice, practice, practice, and, image series project over, two seasons, uh, two, two projects. 00:26:37.903 --> 00:26:45.780 And I think it's always very challenging to them to commit to doing a series of anything because their life up to now has been mostly one offs. 00:26:45.780 --> 00:26:58.050 But I think that the commitment to doing something and seeing it through is a very important part of learning photography and a part of the natural experimentation that comes with following through with something. 00:26:58.880 --> 00:26:59.820 I couldn't agree with that. 00:26:59.820 --> 00:27:00.770 Anymore. 00:27:00.770 --> 00:27:08.000 yeah, seeing something finished is huge, especially when you're just trying to learn what, the buttons do on your camera. 00:27:08.000 --> 00:27:11.951 When you're able to have this idea and go out and shoot it and finish it. 00:27:11.951 --> 00:27:13.431 That is a big thing for sure. 00:27:13.431 --> 00:27:20.595 So when you have this idea, maybe could you tell me what is the most recent, project that you've been working on so that I can try to use this as an example? 00:27:21.585 --> 00:27:22.805 That's a really good question. 00:27:22.805 --> 00:27:24.004 What is most recent project? 00:27:24.004 --> 00:27:42.007 I'm currently have just moved, so I had to

put everything aside, but one of the projects that I'm doing right now is called Precious Things, and that's the working title for it, and it's actually a project that's stretching me quite a bit from my comfort zone because it's a series of portraits, and it's a series of it's actually diptychs. 00:27:42.007 --> 00:27:48.317 It's a portrait of a person holding their most coveted object, and it's a portrait of the object. 00:27:48.317 --> 00:27:59.192 In a very formal way, in other words, it's not just a snapshot of the object on a table, it's a more formally constructed portrait lit, much the same way you would if you were doing a portrait of a person. 00:27:59.192 --> 00:28:05.211 And the idea is, it's not so much the visual, it's the story. 00:28:05.211 --> 00:28:06.831 As well as the visual. 00:28:06.831 --> 00:28:09.412 So it's true storytelling, but it also uses words. 00:28:09.412 --> 00:28:15.642 In other words, it uses a short story about the person's relationship to that object and why it's so important in their life. 00:28:16.281 --> 00:28:17.301 Wow, I love this. 00:28:17.301 --> 00:28:20.001 So, for you, what is the end goal? 00:28:20.001 --> 00:28:25.841 Is there something particular that you are trying to practice to get better at in the series? 00:28:26.244 --> 00:28:28.065 Yes, it's portrait lighting. 00:28:28.065 --> 00:28:38.634 It's not something I take too naturally, and it's also working under different conditions because I'm traveling to people's homes now that, COVID is mostly behind us. 00:28:38.634 --> 00:28:41.835 I believe, I believe it'll be time to rekindle this project. 00:28:41.835 --> 00:28:49.425 I basically shelved it and, 2020 as many people shelved a lot of projects and Aside from my travel workshops and traveling. 00:28:49.425 --> 00:28:56.935 That's the thing that when I'm home, I'm going to be doing the most in fact I'm considering bringing it on the road and doing it also where I travel. 00:28:57.155 --> 00:28:58.586 Oh, that's cool That's because 00:28:58.596 --> 00:29:04.036 what better than to diversify your project with stories from people of other countries and other walks of life 00:29:04.066 --> 00:29:05.076 Yeah, exactly. 00:29:05.076 --> 00:29:10.209 Oh, that is cool so if Portrait lighting is going to be your thing to, focus on. 00:29:10.209 --> 00:29:16.463 How are you going to judge whether you did a good job or continue to need work? 00:29:16.768 --> 00:29:21.647 Well, I think by now I'm pretty good judge of my own work in terms of its technical abilities. 00:29:21.647 --> 00:29:27.107 it's going to be looking at the photograph and saying, is that the best photograph I could have made of this person and that object. 00:29:27.107 --> 00:29:35.392 But also, I have what I call a board of directors, which isn't, isn't, really a board of directors, their friends, photographers, and designers as well. 00:29:35.392 --> 00:29:40.301 who I know whose work I love and whose opinions I trust. 00:29:40.301

--> 00:29:46.521 And I also know, and they know that, I am not wrapped up in the yes or no, whether a photograph is good. 00:29:46.521 --> 00:29:48.692 I just want to hear what they say about the photograph. 00:29:49.461 --> 00:29:50.101 Oh, wow. 00:29:50.101 --> 00:29:50.662 That is cool. 00:29:50.662 --> 00:29:54.896 So are these Just friends of yours, just people who you trust. 00:29:54.896 --> 00:29:56.406 Did you reach out to some of these people? 00:29:56.864 --> 00:29:59.163 There are people who I've known along the way. 00:29:59.163 --> 00:30:07.344 some of them are photographers, who have reached the pinnacle of their career or past the pinnacle are now sledding towards retirement. 00:30:07.344 --> 00:30:08.293 And so they've seen. 00:30:08.293 --> 00:30:12.058 Tens of thousands of good images in their life, and they know what to look for. 00:30:12.058 --> 00:30:18.453 One is a fine artist who is not a photographer, but I really appreciate her judgment, or I should say her opinions. 00:30:18.453 --> 00:30:20.463 because she's not a photographer. 00:30:20.463 --> 00:30:23.114 She's looking at things from a much different, point of view. 00:30:23.114 --> 00:30:25.753 I would even show some of my students. 00:30:25.753 --> 00:30:28.199 the work and say, well, let's talk about this. 00:30:28.199 --> 00:30:29.898 I'm not invested in your response. 00:30:29.898 --> 00:30:31.818 What is it that you feel about this work? 00:30:31.818 --> 00:30:42.432 Because fresh young minds and then these older people who I know as well, who are more in my own vintage, I think diversity of information is really the best way of getting, going forward. 00:30:42.491 --> 00:30:44.652 You and me both, that's why I started this podcast. 00:30:44.652 --> 00:30:50.261 That is the exact reason why I started this podcast, because I want to hear everybody's opinion and why they. 00:30:50.261 --> 00:30:55.646 Shoot what it is they shoot and how because I know that there's a million ways to do something. 00:30:55.646 --> 00:30:59.109 guess I want to know does your judgment of a photo? 00:30:59.109 --> 00:31:05.778 Will it always take over for whatever anybody else says, you know, some of these people have been shooting for decades. 00:31:05.778 --> 00:31:08.668 And if they're like, David, this lighting, it's garbage. 00:31:08.668 --> 00:31:11.949 And you look at this photo and you think, I love this lighting so much. 00:31:11.949 --> 00:31:13.568 What do you decide at that point? 00:31:13.788 --> 00:31:14.338 Oh boy. 00:31:14.338 --> 00:31:21.018 Well, I would be deferring to their opinion, especially if they are known for their lighting. 00:31:21.018 --> 00:31:24.768 I can't imagine that I would actually show a photograph that was that bad. 00:31:24.768 --> 00:31:27.687 Because I'm such a harsh critic. 00:31:27.687 --> 00:31:39.815 In fact, I'm such a harsh critic that I know that I profess more than I do when it comes to, being easy on myself and, I'm very harsh, but, yeah, I think at the early stages of the project, I'll get input on the technical edge of things so that I can. 00:31:39.815 --> 00:31:46.754 Not keep making that mistake over and over and over again, because I don't really don't have the time or the leeway to keep making the same mistake over and over again. 00:31:46.754 --> 00:31:48.144 I want to know soon. 00:31:48.144 --> 00:31:49.674 I remember what Joe McNally said. 00:31:49.674 --> 00:31:53.024 In fact, I'm glad you brought his name up because he's all time favorite of mine. 00:31:53.024 --> 00:32:01.859 I think he said one time in one of the interviews that he brought images back from a paid shoot and the art director said, these all suck. 00:32:01.859 --> 00:32:02.299 Yes. 00:32:02.299 --> 00:32:03.779 Like, what, were you thinking? 00:32:03.779 --> 00:32:04.069 Yeah. 00:32:04.069 --> 00:32:08.359 And he said, that was a very harsh lesson and, one that I value very much. 00:32:08.359 --> 00:32:18.702 And that's the sign of a really good secure person is when they can hear that and still go into that and still go right back into the fire again and do it better. 00:32:18.702 --> 00:32:22.635 And I think that I just want to take a second to say that the thing that I feel. 00:32:22.635 --> 00:32:24.721 And I mentioned this at the very beginning. 00:32:24.721 --> 00:32:31.880 I think the thing that is most important for photographers learning photography to know is that the comments about their pictures are not about themselves. 00:32:32.414 --> 00:32:32.524 They're 00:32:32.625 --> 00:32:33.274 about the picture. 00:32:33.274 --> 00:32:35.254 You have to to make that separation. 00:32:35.254 --> 00:32:43.889 And if you don't make that separation, then you're not going to grow because you'll feel that someone doesn't Think that you're a good photographer, and that's not the point. 00:32:43.889 --> 00:32:45.079 That's not the point. 00:32:45.569 --> 00:32:46.420 Yeah, absolutely. 00:32:46.420 --> 00:32:47.569 I'm right there with you. 00:32:47.569 --> 00:32:53.670 but that can be challenging because we as photographers are so connected to what it is that we do, right? 00:32:53.670 --> 00:32:56.399 Like, it is our baby, we feel. 00:32:56.399 --> 00:33:01.349 so when somebody has, negative input on a photo of ours. 00:33:01.349 --> 00:33:04.170 It feels like they're talking to us. 00:33:04.170 --> 00:33:06.079 Like they're saying that we are not good 00:33:06.109 --> 00:33:07.740 because we made the photograph because 00:33:07.740 --> 00:33:08.579 we made the photograph. 00:33:08.579 --> 00:33:09.119 Exactly. 00:33:09.119 --> 00:33:10.069 even though. 00:33:10.069 --> 00:33:16.845 We may not know, you know, we may not have the technical aptitude to be able to say exactly what we wanted in that photograph. 00:33:16.845 --> 00:33:20.045 We still feel that the fact that we made it is anyway, it doesn't matter. 00:33:20.045 --> 00:33:21.927 Again, let's go back to this lighting example, right?

00:33:21.927 --> 00:33:29.240 you said that you're going to, try to get information, or that you're going to try to get technical information before so that you don't waste your time. 00:33:29.240 --> 00:33:36.480 So you're reaching out to, your mentors, your group, your board member, to say, Hey, this is a project that I'm going to work on. 00:33:36.480 --> 00:33:37.951 would you guys do this? 00:33:37.951 --> 00:33:40.201 Or do you have any input specifically on, lighting? 00:33:40.490 --> 00:33:43.191 Yes, I would ask for input on lighting in a heartbeat. 00:33:43.191 --> 00:33:46.530 the students in my commercial program are amazing. 00:33:46.530 --> 00:33:53.100 They have been learning lighting for two years and they have access to a full studio and some very, very good equipment. 00:33:53.100 --> 00:34:02.975 that is not what I have, so I would definitely want opinions from a variety of people from someone of their vintage to someone who's older and has used, lighting for quite a number of years. 00:34:02.975 --> 00:34:04.625 And I'm not invested. 00:34:04.625 --> 00:34:09.276 if I thought I knew enough not to ask them the questions, then I wouldn't ask them the questions. 00:34:09.276 --> 00:34:11.356 It's clearly that I'm open to the answer. 00:34:11.356 --> 00:34:13.036 Otherwise, why ask the question? 00:34:13.036 --> 00:34:13.996 Right. 00:34:13.996 --> 00:34:27.164 And if you're showing your work to people, I'll just say one thing that I catch people doing when I start working with a new mentoring student or a student in my courses or workshops, is when you put your work out there in front of people, don't make excuses for it. 00:34:27.164 --> 00:34:29.394 Just put the work out there in front of them and listen. 00:34:29.394 --> 00:34:30.336 Just listen. 00:34:30.336 --> 00:34:35.806 Don't say, oh, well I could have done this better, but you know something, forget all that conversation. 00:34:35.806 --> 00:34:36.976 Just put the work out there. 00:34:37.277 --> 00:34:47.596 So is the point of that just to take in all the information and then give it time to digest and separate from our own ego in the photo and then readjust. 00:34:48.070 --> 00:34:54.190 Yeah, and it's also, to let the person, first of all to honor their time and to let the person know that. 00:34:54.190 --> 00:34:55.400 You're vulnerable. 00:34:55.400 --> 00:35:00.800 that's the most important word I can say is you're allowing vulnerability by saying, is this photograph good? 00:35:00.800 --> 00:35:02.490 Or what can I do better? 00:35:02.490 --> 00:35:08.358 And if you're allowing for that by going for the question to begin with, then don't make excuses for what it is. 00:35:08.358 --> 00:35:21.701 That's like saying in a conversation to someone you've just met at a party, well, I had a really difficult life, but You just don't start a relationship or conversation or a learning environment with a pile of things that are your own personal. 00:35:22.630 --> 00:35:44.173 I'm thinking about this and, I'm trying to imagine because I'm sure that there are times where, man, I feel like I'm doing the worst job, with these questions right here because I feel like everything that you're saying to me, I'm almost trying to find, example like in which you could find the opposite, I guess, because, to understand how great something is, we almost have to know, like, where it came from. 00:35:44.173 --> 00:35:44.833 You know what I mean? 00:35:44.833 --> 00:35:47.213 so where do you think then that comes in? 00:35:47.213 --> 00:35:48.353 where do we introduce that? 00:35:48.353 --> 00:35:51.213 I've had a really difficult life, part of the equation. 00:35:51.804 --> 00:36:07.347 Well, it may have been a little bit of a stray from the reality of it, but, if a student sends me 12 images and then we're on Zoom looking at them and I have a chance to digest them a little bit beforehand and then we're going through them on a screen share and he or she says, well, the weather wasn't that good. 00:36:07.347 --> 00:36:10.547 So this is this and this is this is okay. 00:36:10.547 --> 00:36:13.177 So what you're telling me is that. 00:36:13.177 --> 00:36:26.893 You yourself feel insecure about whether these will be good because you know you had some hardships along the way, or you know things weren't ideal, and I can hear that and say to myself, okay, I should really take that into account. 00:36:26.893 --> 00:36:29.373 But really, what we're here to learn about is what's in the frame. 00:36:29.373 --> 00:36:36.322 yes, there's a little bit of conversation, and I may say, can you tell me what you were doing when you made these photographs? 00:36:36.322 --> 00:36:36.902 And then. 00:36:36.902 --> 00:36:40.893 Let's not talk about each photographs problems before we even talk about the photograph. 00:36:41.012 --> 00:36:41.543 Gotcha. 00:36:41.543 --> 00:36:45.246 Okay, that's a much better example than what I had heard. 00:36:45.246 --> 00:36:45.846 I apologize. 00:36:45.846 --> 00:36:54.603 I don't comprehend words as as fast as maybe I should especially For being a podcast host you would think that I would be better at that back to the whole personal projects thing. 00:36:54.603 --> 00:36:57.032 I want to know, like, what for you is the end goal? 00:36:57.032 --> 00:37:06.262 I understand that learning either a new skill or, practicing something and becoming a better photography is the ultimate end goal, but for your photo. 00:37:06.262 --> 00:37:07.623 what's the end goal for that? 00:37:07.623 --> 00:37:12.313 Is it to print and, put on the wall behind you and then it's done or what? 00:37:12.588 --> 00:37:13.739 That's a really good question. 00:37:13.739 --> 00:37:20.596 I think it's very important that I say a few things about what I see as beneficial in doing personal projects. 00:37:20.596 --> 00:37:25.436 The end game would be, in my opinion, to share it with the world, right? 00:37:25.436 --> 00:37:27.925

Otherwise, you're an island making work for yourself. 00:37:27.925 --> 00:37:33.050 And there's people with Thousands of pounds of photographs like that in their attics and basements. 00:37:33.050 --> 00:37:36.690 And I myself have a garage full of things I have not shown the world. 00:37:36.690 --> 00:37:42.389 But I think that it's important to say that you're doing a personal project because you want to share something about yourself. 00:37:42.389 --> 00:37:45.918 You said something very important at the very beginning of this podcast. 00:37:45.918 --> 00:37:52.862 And I think that what I took from that is a photograph is both about what's in front of the camera and the person behind the camera. 00:37:52.862 --> 00:37:55.211 That's not how you phrased it, but that's the takeaway. 00:37:55.211 --> 00:38:03.731 And so, if you're doing a personal project, it's partly to investigate and explore something and the adventure of exploring something you are drawn to. 00:38:03.731 --> 00:38:08.492 And in doing so, you're going to naturally tell your story to other people. 00:38:08.492 --> 00:38:10.211 I care about this. 00:38:10.211 --> 00:38:18.192 vase full of flowers and I'm going to photograph it with true belief and passion towards my love for flowers and vases. 00:38:18.192 --> 00:38:22.971 And I want other people to see what I see when I light them that way, or to show them that way. 00:38:22.971 --> 00:38:27.485 It's the true spirit of sharing and art is meant to be seen by more than the person who created it. 00:38:27.485 --> 00:38:34.550 Even if it's not art yet, the word arts very heavy, you know, that means something is really successful or not. 00:38:34.715 --> 00:38:36.244 Yeah, that is beautiful to think of. 00:38:36.244 --> 00:38:50.654 okay, let's think of this, this possible of a full of flowers right there, and talking about the way that you want to light it When you do end up shooting something, do you have a very concrete idea of, I know exactly what needs to be captured and I'm going to capture it this way? 00:38:50.654 --> 00:38:55.514 Or how much experimentation are you doing, while shooting to discover new things? 00:38:56.016 --> 00:39:03.516 I think because I commissioned photographs for a long time as an art director, I had a vision of what needed to be done and what I was hiring someone to do. 00:39:03.516 --> 00:39:07.065 That has been hard to break past a lot of the time. 00:39:07.065 --> 00:39:21.706 So if I have a visual in my mind and I have something I want to achieve, if I'm too rigid in my expectations of what that should look like and what the process should be like, then I will let go of the potential of something to naturally evolve. 00:39:21.706 --> 00:39:42.253 Organically grow from that idea into something better than that idea and that's called iteration in my opinion and one must start out with a vision, but to know that that visions basically fuzzy and possibly going to go away as they experiment and organically see what actually happens the process of of feedback of what you just saw. 00:39:42.253 --> 00:39:51.862 What if I change this, that little interior or internal conversation is the thing to pay attention to when doing personal projects, not, am I achieving my vision? 00:39:52.773 --> 00:40:03.623 So we're not trying to be different just for the sake of being different, but listening to what voice in our head is saying, well, what if we just tried this a little bit different and then dive deeper into that? 00:40:04.059 --> 00:40:05.119 That sounds about right. 00:40:05.119 --> 00:40:07.317 Yeah, think that everyone. 00:40:07.317 --> 00:40:15.202 knows somewhere along the line that when they were a child and they scribbled on paper and mommy said, Oh my God, that's so amazing. 00:40:15.202 --> 00:40:18.302 They know at that moment that they felt something good. 00:40:18.302 --> 00:40:18.753 Yes. 00:40:18.753 --> 00:40:27.590 If you were instead told, well, can you try that with a little bit more blue, then you would have had a different experience and maybe you would have learned. 00:40:27.590 --> 00:40:31.525 The first thing you do isn't the last thing you're doing on paper. 00:40:31.525 --> 00:40:37.355 it's part of that conversation of saying, If I keep experimenting, I'll only learn more. 00:40:37.355 --> 00:40:41.434 And if I go too far away from my original vision, I can always pull it back. 00:40:41.434 --> 00:40:45.644 But to have the experience of variation, much like when you're shooting. 00:40:45.644 --> 00:40:50.474 I tell students, if you're attracted to something and you're out photographing, Keep shooting it. 00:40:50.474 --> 00:40:51.735 Make variations. 00:40:51.735 --> 00:40:53.434 put your body in different positions. 00:40:53.434 --> 00:40:55.565 Don't just stand there with a zoom lens and try different. 00:40:55.565 --> 00:41:03.610 focal lengths, or different apertures or different speeds, but move yourself around and see how many different ways you can connect to that subject. 00:41:03.610 --> 00:41:07.759 And that's the iteration that I do with my personal projects as well. 00:41:07.759 --> 00:41:15.489 and I may show some of those early iterations to people, or I may not, I may just discard them myself and say, Oh wait, this one feels best. 00:41:15.489 --> 00:41:24.009 Now that I've realized that, Oh yeah, I want to have less light around the subject because I want more of a glow or something like that. 00:41:24.009 --> 00:41:26.119 There's a response that we see. 00:41:26.119 --> 00:41:29.190 And we need to pay attention to the messages in that response. 00:41:29.579 --> 00:41:33.130 Is it the same when knowing when to be done? 00:41:33.849 --> 00:41:35.110 Oh boy, that's a hard one. 00:41:35.110 --> 00:41:37.179 I'm terrible at knowing when to be done. 00:41:37.179 --> 00:41:37.519 Same. 00:41:37.519 --> 00:41:40.179 I think that first of all, I get lost. 00:41:40.179 --> 00:41:45.369 and I just want to keep

working on it because I think that there's just one more thing I haven't tried. 00:41:45.369 --> 00:41:49.313 There's also the, this is a big one, the word perfectionism. 00:41:49.313 --> 00:41:54.083 many of us keep tunneling into something because we feel it's not perfect yet. 00:41:54.083 --> 00:41:59.423 And I'm totally guilty of that even though I, I profess for people to let go of perfectionism. 00:41:59.423 --> 00:42:05.197 You know, listen to David Dushman, he's got podcasts about it. 00:42:05.197 --> 00:42:08.117 I assign those to my students that required listening. 00:42:08.266 --> 00:42:09.786 So how do we get over that though? 00:42:09.786 --> 00:42:19.521 How do you know that balance between, wait, wait, I'm really close, or I'm just spending way too much time to not get much more return on this? 00:42:19.980 --> 00:42:30.940 I think that's maturity and just learning through experience, how much time you're wasting or how much energy and to sit, get away from the camera for a bit and go somewhere else. 00:42:30.940 --> 00:42:35.380 and just say, why am I pounding that nail further into the wood? 00:42:35.380 --> 00:42:36.300 It's already there. 00:42:36.300 --> 00:42:37.567 am I done yet? 00:42:37.567 --> 00:42:53.101 should I just say, This is really has achieved my vision and my vision will always keep changing if I keep poking at it but shouldn't I move on to something else or cross train myself with a different kind of photography and That's what I try to do is have two different things going on at once if not three. 00:42:53.721 --> 00:43:02.211 Oh, wow So is it fair to say then that no photo will be perfect But at some point you just have to let go of the reins and move on to the next thing 00:43:02.650 --> 00:43:07.516 Well, I think that gets into an existential question about perfection. 00:43:10.346 --> 00:43:10.596 But 00:43:10.646 --> 00:43:16.836 honestly, there are some photographs I made in the series a long time ago on a six by seven transparency film. 00:43:16.836 --> 00:43:18.806 And, it was a very exacting process. 00:43:18.806 --> 00:43:20.887 That was the largest camera I could work with at the time. 00:43:20.887 --> 00:43:31.626 And, When I look back on them now, I realize that the iterations that I did in order to get to those photographs were the important part of the process because they ended up differently than what I originally planned on doing. 00:43:31.626 --> 00:43:33.456 I even sketched out what I wanted to do. 00:43:33.456 --> 00:43:35.867 it was like a self assignment. 00:43:35.867 --> 00:43:46.146 But when I look at the ones that I feel now are the best photographs, it's because I let go at one point and said, that is as close as I'm going to get with that. 00:43:46.146 --> 00:43:47.481 And it's good enough. 00:43:47.481 --> 00:43:50.072 And when I show it to other people, they don't know what's missing. 00:43:50.072 --> 00:43:50.851 Yeah. 00:43:50.851 --> 00:43:51.931 I know what's missing. 00:43:51.931 --> 00:43:59.742 yes, I could have lit That wing feathered a little bit better on that bird's wing that I posed next to this group of objects. 00:44:00.036 --> 00:44:07.233 I'm writing that down because the fact that people can look at a photo and not know what's missing Sorry, I cannot they weren't there at once right? 00:44:07.233 --> 00:44:07.893 Yeah, exactly. 00:44:07.893 --> 00:44:21.402 weren't there They don't know but still I think it's that perfectionism that holds so many people back when they I don't think that the goal in most of photography is to be perfect, but it's simply to do. 00:44:21.402 --> 00:44:33.625 And if you just do, you're going to be better than, I mean, 99, you're gonna be better than a hundred percent of the photographers who don't do, who are so focused on the perfectionism that they never get even to the point of doing. 00:44:33.625 --> 00:44:39.904 And that's something that I struggle with, where it's like when I come up with an idea, I try to come up with the perfect plan. 00:44:39.904 --> 00:44:41.315 and it never goes according to plan. 00:44:41.315 --> 00:44:45.735 So then I try to plan out an even more perfect plan and then that doesn't go according to plan. 00:44:45.735 --> 00:44:50.907 And it's hard to still, get the momentum to continue to go. 00:44:50.907 --> 00:45:02.277 So for people like me, and I would say people like yourself who are focused on that perfectionism, is there any advice that you have to help us encourage to continue to just do? 00:45:02.762 --> 00:45:04.601 I hope I can answer that correctly. 00:45:04.601 --> 00:45:05.451 I feel that 00:45:05.681 --> 00:45:06.322 it doesn't have to be a 00:45:06.322 --> 00:45:06.862 perfect answer. 00:45:06.862 --> 00:45:07.311 Yeah. 00:45:07.311 --> 00:45:07.561 Right. 00:45:07.561 --> 00:45:07.831 Right. 00:45:07.831 --> 00:45:08.701 It doesn't have to be perfect. 00:45:08.701 --> 00:45:11.561 there's so many things that come to my mind on that question. 00:45:11.561 --> 00:45:17.378 one of them is that, you will learn the most by, and this is nothing I've dreamt up making mistakes. 00:45:17.378 --> 00:45:18.438 They're not mistakes. 00:45:18.438 --> 00:45:20.317 That's not the right word. 00:45:20.317 --> 00:45:41.014 They are just simply the process of evolving and I don't mean evolving like you're involving as a person, but evolving as a person who sees and evolving as a person who also knows when to let go and evolving as a person who knows that, that the snapshot of the moment of that process, Will look different than the snapshot of that moment. 00:45:41.014 --> 00:45:42.974 Two seconds later of that process. 00:45:42.974 --> 00:45:54.934 You are evolving, you are learning, you are maybe not achieving your expectation, but letting go of those expectations is a huge part of learning photography and just keep doing it. 00:45:54.934 --> 00:45:56.264 Keep doing it. 00:45:56.264 --> 00:46:04.304 I think everyone who's listening to this

podcast should watch videos by people like Jay myself. 00:46:04.304 --> 00:46:05.869 Santa Fe workshops. 00:46:05.869 --> 00:46:08.213 Phenomenal place to do workshops. 00:46:08.213 --> 00:46:14.353 they put out a series of photographs called, I think inspiration by put on by Santa Fe workshops. 00:46:14.353 --> 00:46:16.583 And one of my favorites is by Jay. 00:46:16.583 --> 00:46:17.103 Myself. 00:46:17.103 --> 00:46:20.284 And he just has some beautiful gems to talk about there. 00:46:20.284 --> 00:46:26.079 And he talks about the thousands of photographs that were no good, that he thought was, were good. 00:46:26.079 --> 00:46:34.480 And everyone has had that kind of conversation, but you have to let go of your own expectations of what each photograph needs to be. 00:46:34.480 --> 00:46:37.309 And just know that you're getting better and getting better and getting better. 00:46:37.309 --> 00:46:38.869 I'm not sure I even answered your question. 00:46:38.869 --> 00:46:43.659 I tripped into another thought, but that's my rabbit hole way of being. 00:46:43.659 --> 00:46:48.355 I think that it's just a really good idea to know when to get out of your own way. 00:46:48.837 --> 00:46:49.697 That's a hard thing though. 00:46:49.697 --> 00:46:50.577 And to enjoy 00:46:50.597 --> 00:46:51.248 the process. 00:46:51.248 --> 00:46:51.487 Yeah. 00:46:51.487 --> 00:47:02.936 I think the better, thing to ask yourself is not, Are these photographs perfect, or are these photographs excellent, even, or to judge that is, am I growing as a photographer by making these? 00:47:03.086 --> 00:47:15.891 Wow, yeah, and I feel like, we're once again, getting into existential ideas here, but knowing, if you're going to grow from these photographs again, because I feel like every time I take a photo, of course, I'm going to be a better photographer, right? 00:47:15.891 --> 00:47:19.981 Every photo that I take, the goal is to be better than the last photo that I took. 00:47:19.981 --> 00:47:27.181 So on top of that, how can we ensure that the answer is yes and not no. 00:47:27.552 --> 00:47:31.067 Well, I actually Don't go about my photography that way. 00:47:31.067 --> 00:47:33.817 I don't expect each photograph to be better than the last. 00:47:33.817 --> 00:47:40.266 I expect that each time I decide to get up off my butt and go out making photographs, I'll be better than if I'd stayed home. 00:47:40.266 --> 00:47:45.226 I feel that I could make lots and lots of terrible photographs by just deciding to leave the house. 00:47:45.226 --> 00:47:48.027 But I feel better for having tried. 00:47:48.027 --> 00:47:54.331 And I feel better if I Make one photograph that I even keep, and I'm a ruthless editor. 00:47:54.331 --> 00:47:58.262 I mean, you people are amazed at how few photographs are in my Lightroom catalog. 00:47:58.262 --> 00:47:59.351 It's like, what? 00:47:59.351 --> 00:48:00.501 Are you kidding me? 00:48:00.501 --> 00:48:02.581 It's like, no, I treat it like film.

00:48:02.581 --> 00:48:04.721 I don't shoot that much when I shoot. 00:48:04.721 --> 00:48:07.922 And unless I'm shooting wildlife that's moving or something that's moving. 00:48:07.922 --> 00:48:09.777 And I edit ruthlessly. 00:48:09.777 --> 00:48:16.306 I actually do this process where I select all the photos, I hit X and then I deselect the ones that I'm keeping. 00:48:16.306 --> 00:48:21.826 So you mark them all, every single photo is a reject . And then you choose a photo to, and I longer and I go back and I go, okay, 00:48:21.831 --> 00:48:23.266 that one hit the U Keith. 00:48:23.266 --> 00:48:23.896 The un reject. 00:48:23.896 --> 00:48:25.186 Un reject, unre, reject. 00:48:25.186 --> 00:48:30.117 And then all those that I hit, go to a. Collection and I go and review those later. 00:48:30.117 --> 00:48:37.067 And that way I'm just making my process a lot more ruthless and I'm less likely to have a lot of chaff that I have to hold on to. 00:48:37.226 --> 00:48:38.016 Oh my goodness. 00:48:38.016 --> 00:48:39.157 I'm going to have to try that. 00:48:39.157 --> 00:48:40.396 That sounds so interesting. 00:48:40.396 --> 00:48:44.086 Cause it, you know, I think everybody's so used to doing it the exact opposite way. 00:48:44.086 --> 00:48:44.976 everything's a keeper. 00:48:44.976 --> 00:48:46.447 Now I have to pick which ones are bad. 00:48:46.447 --> 00:48:54.519 And obviously professionally shooting weddings, I'm willing to bet that that's going to cut down the number of photos that ultimately ended up getting edited and delivered by a ton. 00:48:54.519 --> 00:48:58.177 but also I struggle with, you know, just photographing the kids. 00:48:58.177 --> 00:49:05.282 Cause it's like, even if a photo is not technically a great photo, I think just emotionally as a parent, I'm just like, Oh, but I love this photo. 00:49:05.282 --> 00:49:06.322 I'm just going to go ahead and keep it. 00:49:06.322 --> 00:49:10.315 But if I go ahead and mark them all as rejects, it's really going to force me to pick better photos. 00:49:10.315 --> 00:49:10.824 That's great. 00:49:10.824 --> 00:49:16.255 David, we're at the end of our time here and I feel like this just blew by at a million miles an hour. 00:49:16.255 --> 00:49:20.469 So, I want to, first and foremost, thank you so much for coming on and sharing everything that you have. 00:49:20.469 --> 00:49:27.514 This has been a very fun, conversation, even though I've, I feel like I probably did a terrible job and pushed you a little bit too hard in several places. 00:49:27.514 --> 00:49:34.063 But before I let you go, can you share with listeners where we can find out more about you and your work online? 00:49:34.436 --> 00:49:35.177 Oh, thank you. 00:49:35.177 --> 00:49:42.534 first of all, I really enjoyed the process and yes, I think I rabbit holed many of your questions, so I apologize for that, but I think we met in the middle and said some great things. 00:49:42.603 --> 00:49:42.974 Yes. 00:49:43.023 --> 00:49:44.744 you can find me at davidjulian. 00:49:44.744 --> 00:49:45.204 com. 00:49:45.204 --> 00:49:46.494 expect that there's a lot of. 00:49:46.494 --> 00:49:49.798 Drop down menus that you have to go through to see who I really am. 00:49:49.798 --> 00:49:55.989 And, there's also a link there that goes to my blog, which hosts my workshops and, other articles that I've written. 00:49:55.989 --> 00:50:02.208 we do have some really good workshops coming up and I just want to attract people to check them out and see whether there's something that resonates. 00:50:02.208 --> 00:50:07.045 Doing a workshop, called the art of intentional travel and street photography in Maine coming up. 00:50:07.045 --> 00:50:08.365 That's one of my favorites to do it. 00:50:08.365 --> 00:50:12.509 Main media workshops, as well as going back to Cuba in December. 00:50:12.509 --> 00:50:15.034 this will be my eighth time bringing people to Cuba. 00:50:15.034 --> 00:50:16.543 So I'm very excited to do that. 00:50:17.844 --> 00:50:20.304 I want to thank David so much for coming on the podcast. 00:50:20.304 --> 00:50:21.413 I have three big takeaways. 00:50:21.413 --> 00:50:33.623 One, to embrace personal projects for growth and creativity, undertake those personal projects, that you are thinking of that you want to explore so that you can, find new and different areas of photography to, to do. 00:50:33.623 --> 00:50:38.230 Develop your own skills, use personal projects as an opportunity to learn. 00:50:38.230 --> 00:50:53.168 they're so great I mean David shared about how his personal project where he's photographing both Person and the object that is most dear to them What he's doing is he's using that to become an opportunity to grow his skills with lighting That's perfect. 00:50:53.168 --> 00:50:57.028 also the importance of seeking feedback and learning from others. 00:50:57.028 --> 00:51:07.105 David has, a board of trustees, you know, a place that he feels safe to share his work with trusted friends and photographers, or like David, designers. 00:51:07.105 --> 00:51:11.777 Which allows him to receive just valuable feedback and improve upon his technical skills. 00:51:11.777 --> 00:51:22.726 Maybe you don't have a mentor, but you can always join the, free and private beginner photography podcast community to learn from experienced and fellow photographers, to gain that different perspective. 00:51:22.726 --> 00:51:23.846 And of course you can. 00:51:23.846 --> 00:51:27.072 Join the community over at beginner photopod. 00:51:27.072 --> 00:51:28.641 com forward slash group. 00:51:28.641 --> 00:51:33.762 And then lastly, to let go of perfectionism and embrace trial and error. 00:51:33.762 --> 00:51:44.001 Ooh, this is a hard one, to accept that mistakes are just part of the learning process and do not actually define your abilities as a photographer. 00:51:44.001 --> 00:51:50.402 So just focus on, continual practice and experimentation rather than striving for perfection in each. 00:51:50.402 --> 00:51:53.653 I really hope that you enjoyed today's interview with David. 00:51:53.653 --> 00:51:59.364 I would love to hear your biggest takeaway again, in the free and private beginner photography podcast community. 00:51:59.364 --> 00:52:03.523 So come join us, ask questions, connect and even get feedback on your work. 00:52:03.523 --> 00:52:07.643 And again, you can join by heading over to beginner photopod. 00:52:07.643 --> 00:52:10.713 com forward slash group that's beginner photopod. 00:52:10.713 --> 00:52:12.163 com forward slash group. 00:52:12.163 --> 00:52:18.128 So until next week, remember the more that you shoot today, the better of a photographer you will be tomorrow. 00:52:18.128 --> 00:52:18.909 Talk soon. 00:52:19.768 --> 00:52:24.208 Thank you for listening to the beginner photography podcast, keep shooting, and we'll see you 00:52:24.239 --> 00:52:24.878 next week.