התמלול המלא של Shared, Not Gatekept (with Jeff Warne Founder New Holland Golf Club)

Hall in a much more UK model that doors are going to be open, a lot of public play, you know, geared towards that subsid from the outsider looks like it's subsidizing a lot of the membership. So actually bringing something to the states that, you know, very few other places are doing in terms of the new builds. So I'm just interested in the, you know, the eco the economics or economies behind that, because you know, it's a it's a difficult thing to do, especially with today's construction costs and build outs. so it's been definitely a project I've been paying attention to, maybe more so than a lot of the others out there. Matt Considine (05:18) Yeah, yeah. And and you know, every once in a while we get a guest on his show that is not afraid to let a take or opinion fly. I've listened to Jeff on on many a show. He's he's no stranger pod. The Professor (05:27) yeah. Matt Considine (05:28) I'm excited just to get just to to be with the man and hear hear his thoughts on on the game in general. The Professor (05:33) Always thoughtful. Matt Considine (05:35) traditions are traditions, professor. teachings. What what do you got for us, Teach? The Professor (05:40) Huh, you know, when you started this society all the way back in twenty seventeen or or whatever the official year was, obvious it'd been cooking in your head for a long time, I'm sure. Was it always New Club Golf Society? Was that always the name from the beginning? Did you play with different names? Yeah, what what what what did that look like? Matt Considine (05:58) Definitely not. definitely not. And no, I never played with the the joke that Mark and I have is it took me, you know, ten years to kind of come up with the eventual concept and about ten seconds to name it, because The Professor (06:10) Okay. Matt Considine (06:11) of of our experience at the new golf club of St. Andrews and just being a a a tribute to one of the first places that ever inspired me and and the place I was sitting at the time, having a dram of whiskey when I decided to quit my job and and give it a go. so Yeah, not nothing nothing more more thoughtful than that. The Professor (06:30) all right, that's good to know. So no name changes. Well I'm gonna give you a couple of names, see if you're familiar with them. Have you heard of Brad's drink? Matt Considine (06:37) Rads drink No, other than our pr occasional production assistant, Brad Malik, who enjoys a matcha tea every once in a while. The Professor (06:48) So that would be Pepsi Cola, originally named by Caleb Bradman. How about blue ribbon Matt Considine (06:51) Wow. Okay. Okay. The Professor (06:54) blue ribbon sports? Matt Considine (06:56) Blue ribbon sports, ESPN? The Professor (07:00) close. Nike. But then do you know where the name do Matt Considine (07:02) my gosh, yeah. The Professor (07:03) you know where the name Nike comes from? Matt Considine (07:05) the Greek God. The Professor (07:06) Yeah, the Green Queen goddess. Yep. Yep. Yep. Matt Considine (07:08) Yeah, goddess. The Professor (07:10) let me give you one more to try to let you guess and I'll run through a couple back rub. Matt Considine (07:16) Back rub is like a company's name was Back Rub. Massage Envy. The Professor (07:20) Google. so that was Google's Google's original name and Matt Considine (07:21) Come on. The Professor (07:23) they renamed it Google after ten to the one hundredth, so one followed by a hundred zeros, Google. Matt Considine (07:29) Is this is this your campaign to get us to change our name? Are you gonna come at the bagdrop next? Everyone loves the bagdrop as a name. No The Professor (07:36) I I the bagdrop original name, I think me and you, I don't remember we brainstormed that together a long time ago through text or whatever. With the bagdrop's never leaving. No, but all sorts of famous Matt Considine (07:45) Yeah. The Professor (07:46) names out there. I'll give you a couple other ones. Kibble, that was originally Netflix's name. Abracadabra, so Cadabra. That was Amazon. lawyer. The lawyer didn't like it. Said so I thought it sounded a little too much like cadaver. So change it to Amazon eventually on that one. Pequad was Starbucks originally. shout out to Moby Dick. Obviously, Starbucks has kept the theme with the the mermaid on the on the title. U totem. I Matt Considine (08:11) Yeah. The Professor (08:11) became 7-Eleven. 7-Eleven because of open 7 to 11. So literal name for their opening hours. one last one. Marathon, not the gas station. Matt Considine (08:22) Marathon, okay. The Professor (08:24) The UK name for Snickers. So, you know, hungry, why wait? Snickers gives you energy. marathon was the UK names in some places in the United States as well. But then Snickers became the global brand brand for that. So it was actually somewhat originated as a energy bar. And true to this day, you know, Snickers is actually a great grab if you need some energy, some quick energy for an hour or two, and you're you're an active lifestyle person, having a Snickers is actually a pretty good turn if that's all that's available. Matt Considine (08:52) I think you uncovered a a fun deep dive we should add to our list of let's look at, you know, golf clubs and meaning the memberships and how names, you know, happened. Maybe our guests today might have a a thought on New Holland seems pretty straightforward to me of of how that became the case. But maybe, maybe not, maybe not. The Professor (09:10) Maybe some other options were underneath there that they wrestled with. Matt Considine (09:13) That's right. That's right. The Bagdrop Podcast and New Club Golf Society are in partnership with Titleist. And right now, Professor, I'm fresh off my recent, my most recent USGA failed bid. but I'm proud of the way we competed in our four-ball qualifier. But the thing I most definitely did not fail at in in the lead up and in the quality was my wedge game. Thanks to my SM11 wedges from

Titleist, 35 yards. 62 yards, 87, 100, 136. It didn't matter, Professor. I had the confidence with my Voke designed SM elevens to hit the number I needed. So adding Vokey design SM eleven wedges of your bag can open up a world of scoring opportunities. You gotta get fit. I have been thinking about this as we go into the fall season. One, it's just a great time to be out there. Football, all due respect, go play some golf. And while you're playing, get fit now. Don't wait to, you know, when you put the clubs away and you're gonna be rusty. Go get fit now. If you haven't got your wedges refreshed, you can do that over at titleist.com with our all new SM eleven wedges. Professor, let's get on to the show. The Professor (10:23) Let's do it. Matt Considine (10:28) Jeff Warne welcome to The Bag Drop Jeff Warne (10:32) Well, I appreciate you having me on. Matt Considine (10:34) You're no stranger to the pod. I've enjoyed listening to you on so many of them. And and both the professor and I have been really excited to to have you on here today and all the developments at New Holland. but but I've heard I've heard you s share so much about both New Holland and and all the other places you've been, most of your career here at the bridge. Palmetto, I know you have a a deep love for Palmetto saying it's one of the greatest courses and clubs in the country. what I want to know is just some of those places, it can be the ones I just mentioned or or somewhere new. What what are the what are though the things from those places that you are stealing without apology? And and put it on note. What what are you gonna take from those places and bring to your your new your new place? Jeff Warne (11:16) first of all, just listening to you the first ten minutes. I don't think you need to ask me any questions because I have I have comments on every topic that you went through. So I'd rather get to that than talk about New Holland right away. So I'm gonna jump quickly. Matt Considine (11:29) Do it. Do it. Jeff Warne (11:32) Best time for Scotland. You absolutely nailed it. There is no bad time. May is the driest month, just for the record. September Matt Considine (11:39) Thank you. Good to know. The Professor (11:39) All right. Jeff Warne (11:41) is very busy with American tourists typically. I mean I've done 60 trips over there. So I will say that even though there's been a massive influx of Americans traveling there and the the ten courses we've all heard of, you know, you'll see a guy and say, I did Ireland last year, and he rattles them off and he plays the eight marquees and then he goes, I'm doing Scotland next time and he rattles off eight and I'm like, and he probably was in a van, they drove, you know, 2,000 miles to cover every little place. There's so many areas in Scotland, Ireland, England, Wales that you can just go check into a B and B or a rent an Airbnb, which is very affordable for people, stay in that area, never drive more than an hour

and play a dozen golf courses. And it's a way better way to do it. And just like everybody else, my first trip in the early nineties, I did exactly what I'm lecturing about. I you know. probably played Waterville and Royal County down in the same trip. I wouldn't surprise me, I don't remember, but i there's so much great golf together that doesn't even get mentioned. I was just over in my annual Don Quixote attempt to qualify for the senior open, which is hard to do when you've played zero golf all summer when you're building a golf course and running another club. So I was fortunate enough to get him early tea time that seven twenty. So I was the third groove off and was not the clubhouse leader. So it was time to leave. And and that was great 'cause by ten o'clock I was on the road and could go on had the family with me and my son who caddy for my wife and we were up in Blair Gower, which is where I played the qualifier for Glen Eagles, which happens to be the last time it was there I did qualify and I played in the senior open The Professor (13:20) That's right. Jeff Warne (13:21) at Glen Eagles. So I thought, well that'll be great. I know the golf course. What I didn't remember about Glair Gowry is that it's incredibly tight, which you notice when you haven't been playing. last time I was playing well I didn't notice that at all. I was like, what what are these guys talking about? You know, I was down the middle on the green. I didn't notice all the danger around me, which I acutely noticed in both this practice round and in this particular qualifier. So we got in the car and drove down to the ferry down at the the ferry was booked because I hadn't made any short term plans 'cause I had planned on qualifying, I hadn't booked anything. So I like, where are we going? We got in the car, drove down to Troon to take the ferry 'cause I can't remember the name of the other one, which is somewhere near Prestwick. Took the eighty minute ferry ride to Erin The Professor (14:04) Mm. Jeff Warne (14:04) and stayed overnight there, which was awesome on on the island of Erin. Played Shiskin the next morning and then played Corey. It's a nine holer. Shiskin's a twelve holer. And had no advanced booking in either one. Just rocked in there and there's nobody there. and Shishkin's pretty well known. I mean, amongst geek your audience, pretty well educated geeks for lack of a better word, like all of us are. Corey, there was just literally no one there. It's an honor box and we had the course to ourselves, which was a bad thing because we had no one to follow and we didn't know where we were going. So that twenty two hundred yard nine hole course took us about three hours to figure out where we were going. so so what I'm saying is there's so many courses, but then you then we got on the ferry and this unbelievable experience on the ferry. We had a It's a 30-minute ferry from Ire from Arran over to the Kintyre Peninsula, which is where Macrahannish is,

which people would have heard of, Macrohannish Dunes. But there's a nine-hole called Carradale that we was gonna be our first destination in. While we were on this tiny little ferry, and there's no nothing at this ferry, you just pull up this little pavement that goes down into the water, and then the ferry rips up. And if you're one minute late, you're done. Like we we were there The Professor (15:15) Mm-hmm. Jeff Warne (15:16) an hour early and there's nowhere to go. So we just sat in the car for an hour. And three minutes before there were five of us getting on the ferry. Three of us before they waved us up and of course I didn't know what I was doing. I went in the wrong direction. And you know, even with all of my Americanism screw ups, no sooner had our wheels you know, I put the parking brake on that that tick that ferry was gone. Like I'm like, whoa, that was there was no it's not like loading the new London ferry here or the Shelter Island Ferry where there was From the time I put it in gear till the time we left was maybe two minutes and that's 'cause and it would have been one minute except I had to back up. So very, very remote ferry. While we were on that ferry, which is thirty minutes and spectacular scenery. A helicopter was circling us. I'm just getting the video out and we're up on the deck up top and we're the only people up there. And the guy looks at us and says, Hey, you might want to take a step back. I'm like, Whatever. So we back up a little bit. The helicopter has a guy dangling off of it. They land the guy on the helicopter. They're just practicing maneuvers, so they're practicing rescue. So they have the guy, you know, come down the ladder onto the thing, and then by this point everybody came up or we were to watch it and then You know, they once he was safely on the thing, then they, you know, did away with the rope and then sent it back down to him to practice rescuing someone, which was pretty cool to have all that happen. Makes a thirty-minute ferry ride go really fast. So just I guess a normal day in the life in that part of Scotland. We then drove to Carradale, which is no wider than a cart path and a and a cart path at a public course, not at Augusta Country Club. It would be two cart path, it would be half a cart path at Augusta Country Club. And Thirty minute drive there. That road hasn't changed since the last time I was there in two thousand nine. And you know, Carradil's a just epic place, honor box, no one out there. You play nine holes, you haven't. So we've now played twenty-one, twenty-nine holes in one day and didn't see one American and then went to can't I'm trying to think where we stayed. We stayed in an Airbnb and near Macrahannish. So the whole time I'm going to dinner, still don't see an American. You know, it stays light there forever. So at eight o'clock we wander over to Macrahannish, haven't made a tea time. That's a well known golf course. I mean, Michael Bamberger put it on the map

in the in the nineteen The Professor (17:28) Mm-hmm. Jeff Warne (17:29) nineties. And it used to be pretty it would be like a Dornick, at least as popular as Dornick, which wasn't as popular then. And I go in there, I go, you know, little I sent you an email. early in the week, but I didn't hear back from you. And he goes, yeah, you have the PGA member. He goes, when do you want to play? I go, well, you know, we don't want to whatever works for you, but we could go really early if that helps, or really late. He goes, Well, what time do you want to go? I go, what do you got? He goes, anything you want? And I'm like, how's 915? And we get there. We're the first people off at 920. This is July 22nd, middle of the summer this year, with perfect weather, 75 degree weather. And there was a group behind us, but there was no one in front of us. So McRannish isn't busy. We went to Macrahannish Dooms after that and didn't see it. There wasn't we were the only people at that golf course. We played Dunaverty and we were ahead of a large group. That's the funny thing about Ireland. We I mean Scot I'm sorry, Scotland. We played Dunaverty, which has now been sort of made famous amongst our circles in the last say five, ten years. But we go in there and they have a big group going. I made a tea time online and we go out and just didn't bother with the pro thing. I just paid the green fee because I think it was 30 pounds. And we tee off like at 920, and there's a massive group assembling. So we play pretty quick. It's just my son and I, so we're done in three hours, and we go in to eat lunch, and it's like 11:30. Like, yeah, we can't serve you because we've got golfers coming in. And I'm like, well, we play golfers. Are we okay? And they're like, they like, no, there's too big a group. And the first group in the behind us was like on 12. I'm like, I promise we'll be done before they get here. So it became kind of an ordeal just to get lunch. And it, as it turned out, about halfway through there, they were you were right. You are the only people here. But it that's just Scotland. That's the way it used to be, unlike what Dornock has become, which is it's unfortunate that that was once considered remote because I guess that's where everybody wanted to go and become a It is anything but remote. I mean the last two times I've been there, let's just say I enjoy Goldsby a lot more. The Professor (19:29) I'll tell you what, Jeff. You're you're you're speaking to my heart here. and I feel like Jim Hartzel's about to come on to the podcast and join us. That's Jeff Warne (19:35) Jim Hartzall was what I was thinking of for Dun Aberdy. Yeah. Matt Considine (19:37) Yeah. The Professor (19:38) right. That's right. We just had Jim on recently. yeah, and he's a dear friend of mine. but to your point, you know, I'm heading over there on Sunday, and as of yesterday at 8 a.m., I didn't I don't think I had an official tea time booked. Right. I've kind of learn that lesson and as it's gone along that you're you're speaking to that hey, just getting over there and there's just so much good golf to, you know, participate in and to find that you can land or touch down and just figure it out when you when you're actually in Scotland. I want to ask you, when did that do you recall that tipping point in your golf life where you went from like, okay, I'm gonna go over there, I'm gonna do you know, the travel group and being in a in a van. to all of a sudden now you're this other version where like I'm gonna figure it out. Cause like there's a lot of people listening that are probably confused or scared of taking that approach. So like what would you teach them? Like when was that what did you learn that all of a sudden you're like, well I can just show up and it'll be fine. Jeff Warne (20:36) I don't think that's the right approach for the first trip. I think you gotta you gotta do some research, you gotta book a few big guns that you wanna play and you're gonna have to just deal with what's now a five hour round behind Americans and but you're gonna wanna pick off a famous course or two. And I would sell s I would tell somebody generally when somebody asks me, I'll give an itinerary 'cause I have just sort of pre ready to go. But if you were down in like for instance, somewhere near Troon, And you were dying to play Turnberry. You'd seen it on TV and you just had to go to Turnberry. You had to go to Trune. I'd say do it. But while you're there, play Prestwick St. Nicholas, which no one's ever heard of. They confuse it with Prestwick, which they have heard of. there's Glasgow Gales, which has changed names a few times. It was Gales Lynx, Glasgow Gales great golf course. I played a final open qualifier there. and I had played it before. And it's like all the courses. You go there and you play the L O Ts and it's fifty, eight hundred yards, and it's not a long course. And the whites were probably sixty, two hundred. I think I I'm ready for this. I'll just hit, you know, two iron all the way around, it won't be a problem. Then you get there and you find out for the final open qualifier, which is loaded with you know, there's very few spots. It's not like the US Open where there's eighty spots. There's twelve. Now it's sixteen, but at the time there were only twelve, two thousand and fourteen. And you're playing tees that are a hundred yards back on every single hole that have been purpose built that are never used for anything but that. And I was like luckily I did play an official practice round, but I wasn't going to it. I like, Whoa, it you know it's a big difference between fifty eight hundred yards from the yellows and seventy three hundred from the blue tees. So it those courses can take on a whole new life when when they have events there, which is a shame that you can't you know that's my whole rant about the scale of golf and how far the pros hit it. You know, eighty five hundred to nine thousand is

really what golf courses should be these days to match the scale The Professor (22:21) Mm-hmm. Jeff Warne (22:22) of what Watson and Nicholas were playing and that's pretty wonky. You know, it adds hours to the round and pretty much ruins the experience for everybody. And I'm not really sure why people can't grasp that, but I guess it's no different than if you said to me, I'm sixty three years old If you'd said to me in the mid seventies when I was becoming a pretty good junior player, if they said, Hey, we're gonna roll it back to Gutta Percha and instead of hitting it two fifty five, two sixty, you're gonna hit it two ten. So I guess that would have been the same analogy. I would go, Why are we doing this? So I The Professor (22:51) Mm-hmm. Jeff Warne (22:51) get it, but we really are and there's people out there right now going, you know, what a jerk. He wants to take my great big birth away. No, I don't. I I just am kind of bored. I'm Hey, I'm sick of watching horses get bastardized, which has been happening now for thirty years. The Professor (23:08) Yeah. Jeff Warne (23:10) It's I have zero interest in watching hit driver sandwich. And when controlling your spin is like the highest demanded skill these days. You know, it used to be who can hit a long iron. Jack Nicholas beat people by being a great driver and a great long iron player. Now it's how well can you control the spin on your seventy yard wedge. And that's a real thing and it's a real skill. But it's like watching paint dry. The Professor (23:32) Yeah, completely with you there, Jeff. And you made that comment, you know, comparing it to like rolling back to the gut of Percha. I think the big difference in today's age, we wouldn't be changing the materials. A lot of those early evolutions and golf and the distance gains were because the materials were changing and changing in ways that made golf more accessible. obviously adding distance, but longer lasting materials. In today's world, we'd be staying at the same materials if we rolled back. It'd be still be the same style of ball, the same materials in the club. So we wouldn't have that difference. Which I think makes today even more appetizing for a rollback because we don't have to go back to something that's less sustainable from a materials perspective. Jeff Warne (24:10) Yeah, that you know, the real answer was bifurcation. But The Professor (24:14) Yeah. Jeff Warne (24:15) but the tours fought it. And so now th they knew that if they they fought it bifurcation, that when inevitably the US J turn around and said rollback, that they knew that that would never happen because there's too many guys my age that like the fact that they're hitting it longer than they've ever I hit it I was pretty long hitter when I was seventeen, eighteen years old, and I hit it two sixty. And Jack Nicholas hit it two eighty. And now two sixty in Europe. I I love it when I see these charts in golf magazines and they'll talk about how

far should a seven handicap hit it and it's like They got the seven hitting a 270 and they got I'm like, what? That used to be that The Professor (24:50) Yeah, yeah. Jeff Warne (24:51) was the guy leading in driving distance when they played 7,200 Matt Considine (24:54) Right. The Professor (24:54) Right. Jeff Warne (24:56) yard golf courses in the 70s. The guy leading or in the 80s was Dan Pohl, 273 yards. which to really get off topic makes Al Geyberger's 59 by far not even close. The best 50, just Matt Considine (25:08) Yeah, Jeff Warne (25:09) not even close. on The Professor (25:10) Not even close. Jeff Warne (25:11) Bermuda Greens, 100 degree weather, 7200-yard golf course. using you know using Ballata, persimmon, a guy who hit the ball two hundred and fifty yards, two sixty if he killed it, hitting four errands into par four, shooting fifty-nine. And now it's like every other week we got a fifty nine watch. And I just can't believe that any announcer when a guy gets 100 par even bothers to say we were on fifty nine watch. Now who cares? Everybody's on fifty nine watch pretty much when they tee it up these days because most of the courses are now par 70 because they've obsoleted the par fives and it's like It's just not a thing anymore. I remember when Ron Strick shot 62-63. That like on the weekend to win a Texas Open, you know, 40 years ago. And I just that was that would be like a guy shooting fifty-three-fifty three now. It was just shocking. The Professor (25:55) Mm-hmm. Jeff Warne (25:56) And now it's just turn on the TV and that's what they're doing. And they're they're good, they're talented, they're athletic. But don't tell me Jack Nicholas wasn't athletic in nineteen sixty three when he was breaking inserts. You know, he he got shorter as he got older and he aged like everyone used to age then. But in the sixties he s he broke inserts ten in a year. So The Professor (26:12) Mm-hmm. Jeff Warne (26:13) I I would Matt Considine (26:13) So Jeff, is it is it gonna be f safe to assume then I'm checking in for my first visit to New Holland Golf Club. will you guys be supplying me with the appropriate ball and equipment I'll be playing for the day? Is it not left I can't cut whatever I bring out of my back hatchback Jeff Warne (26:28) No, I think I think we'll let you do whatever you want to do. We're not gonna get that worked up about it. if Matt Considine (26:34) I like that. I like that. I I did want to circle back on one thing 'cause I'm really curious with some w any time we get a chance to talk to someone that like yourself that has just lived a lot of lived experience in golf, both here, overseas, a bunch of different regions, even in the US. you talked about that ideal of, you know, there's so many places in the UK and Ireland you can you can park yourself and a couple buddies for a week and and every day you're able to drive to accessible and excellent golf. you you already listed a number of examples over

there. Where do you s where would be your recommendations here in the US? Is there one or two that that that i i i exist in your mind today? Cause I know there's obviously we'll get to y the private club model, kind of the UK model. But Jeff Warne (27:19) Accessible accessible golf. Matt Considine (27:21) yeah, like accessible and excellent golf. Is there is there a a place you you you would say, you know what, if if you and a couple buddies parked it in in XYZ Jeff Warne (27:29) Mm. Matt Considine (27:29) City for a week, you could play so much great golf. Jeff Warne (27:34) that because every time I've ever gotten a break or made a break or snuck away it was to the UK. you might hate this you might hate this answer, but Matt Considine (27:40) Maybe that's the answer though. Jeff Warne (27:42) I would say Myrtle Beach. It's accessible. You know, Matt Considine (27:43) Yeah. Yeah. Jeff Warne (27:46) Hilton Head, but that Myrtle Beach, you people it's gonna bad rap, you know, there used to be a hundred courses, a lot of are closing and People say, those courses are terrible. But you can find five great golf courses in Myrtle Beach. And how many do you need? You don't need a hundred. You just need on a golf trip, you need two, three, or four, or five. So just don't play the 95 that you don't like. So that would be one that I've done. I remember playing Tom Doak's I can't remember what it's called now. Heathland, which wasn't a Heathland, it was a Lynx, but they called it Heathland. And I had just gotten back from my f first trip to Ireland where I spent a month with one of my members when I worked at Long Cove. This would have been late eighties and I played Heathland. I was like, Wow, that was a really good attempt at building a Lynx course in South Carolina, all the way down to some of the South Carolina plants that he had used to sort of mimic the cool season grasses you see in Ireland. So I I don't know what's happened to that golf course if it's still there. I know there were three at that complex, but I really enjoyed Heathland. That would have been nineteen ninety, ninety one, somewhere around there. where else in the US? I would tell people to go up to Maine. I've had some great The Professor (28:51) Mm. Jeff Warne (28:51) trips to Maine, a lot of cool nine holers up there. Done that several times with my staff, gone up there in September. Now, to be fair, we're also getting on some private clubs where I'm writing the letters. But the truth is you could get on most private clubs with a nice letter. You know, you call them, you're probably not gonna, but if you write a nice letter, tell them why you want to play and give them a little flattery and talk about the history of their club. Generally you can get on, but I would say Maine would be a good spot. Blink Bonnie, there's a lot of quirky nine-holeers up there. Great little, great little place. Upstate New Matt Considine (29:24) Yeah, I think Jeff Warne (29:25) York, I think there's lot. Matt Considine (29:27) Yeah. Yeah. No, it's good that that th there there are those those places. I think the heart of my my question probably takes us to you know where we want to talk to you about, which is down in Aiken and this incredible boom of of destination private clubs that that have come up and and your work with with New Holland, which I know you're fully in the throes of right now, moving some some dirt around. The the Is Aiken gonna be one of those places, you know, where you can actually do what the professor's doing here and he's a week out and he's contacting clubs and getting his tea times together. Do you do you see that in the future for Aiken as a potential? Jeff Warne (30:02) That's a interesting question. And I also need, as it was in my notes, I needed to touch on your description of I've got some members over there that are just panicking right now when you were talking about it being open to the public. And it's a UK model. So when you go to the UK and you want to play Dunaverty on a Saturday, you're not gonna be able to book a morning tea time because they're gonna have competition, they're gonna have a members event. I don't care how unfamous the course is. They'll they might have a block of tea time for visitors at three o'clock, but so I don't want any potential member of New Holland or any listener, hopefully a potential person who's gonna play who's not a member, a visitor we call them, not the public, you know, that's what they call it The Professor (30:42) Mm-hmm. Jeff Warne (30:43) over their visitors, that you'll probably have a leg off if a member calls for you or if your pro calls for you, but you'll also be able to pick up the phone or get on the website and But there will be select blocks that don't interfere with members' play. Those blocks are gonna be bigger in July and in December, you know, early December is in there in any resort area is dead. Great time to go visit anywhere because everyone's geared. They've just come back from Thanksgiving. They've just geared up from Christmas. Now they're pleasing their boss and they're they're actually where they're supposed to be that month. So we'll, you know, you could probably play it as soon as the fr if there's no frost, you could probably get the first available tea time on December 4th. Because my members won't be that active then. But it will be all based around the members. You know, it's a members golf club with UK type access. So it's it sh generally, I mean one of the policies with the members is, and it's right there in my documents when you look at it one, is Not only are you going to understand that we're going to have unaccompanied play or visitors, but you're going to embrace it. And if you see them sitting at a table, you're going to go over and you're going to welcome and you're going to talk about your club and you're going to be proud of your club, not upset that this person, the great unwash, got to play your

course. it's sort of funny, I was talking to my attorney on the project about it, about unaccompanied play, and he has a friend who's a member of another private club, and and they were contemplating unaccompanied play. He said, Well, most of the people of that club aren't really worried about who plays on a Tuesday, as long as they can get themselves out on a Saturday. They're not there working Tuesday. So it can be managed. And the dirty little secret is, National Golf Lake and Shinnocox in April and May, it's about 90% non-members. You know, everyone thinks they're private. Try and go over there right now is impossible. You'd have to be with a member, but They're doing outings every single day. At the bridge, I'm doing outings. I'm having unaccompanied play. It's a little different access. You'll have to call me and write an email or have your pro write me. But there's this myth in America, and it's really come since COVID. It's gotten much more s you know all about it. You guys have a society that plays golf courses that are private. So there is access. And the idea that your club is gonna only be for members seems like good golf should be shared, not The Professor (32:56) Mm. Jeff Warne (32:57) not gatekeeped, I think. And as a member you should be proud that someone wants to come leave wherever they're from, come down and play your golf course. So I don't see it as a conflict at all. And my hope is that that's what keeps the dues down for my members. Matt Considine (33:11) There's so much I I really appreciate about your your answer. And I I the two things you said that I just think I'm gonna double click on real quick expectation setting to me. Ket Professor and I have this it's been a theme with many times on our show of how well overseas they set that expectation. Even your funny story about lunch, Jeff. You know, they're not afraid to kind of set that really clear expectation for a visitor or a member. And when you have it, boy, it's a symphony. And and the other thing he said that I just absolutely love and I don't hear this at all. the words public and private are just wrong in the context The Professor (33:46) Mm. Matt Considine (33:47) of when we talk about all this stuff. W why can't we move to member and visitor? I just don't understand why why everybody gets hung up in in that that terminology with with so many other preconceptions, right? I I that I really appreciate just just there there are members of clubs, there are visitors of clubs. And they they can coexist in a very they're both very different, but it it can work well as we've learned from paying attention overseas. Jeff Warne (34:11) It's like the treehouse when you're a kid, you know, un unless you can keep the girls out. You can't be a club and you're not a club unless there's somebody you're keeping out, right? So it little do we know that a few years later we wish those girls had did show up in the treehouse. But it's Matt Considine (34:25) Well and and

in my in my tree house in my backyard I got two older girls and man my little guy he is not Jeff Warne (34:30) Ha. The Professor (34:29) Ha ha. Matt Considine (34:31) included in a thing. I fe I don't know what it's gonna do to him, but hopefully build character. Jeff Warne (34:36) He needs he needs learn some negotiation skills, it sounds like. But Matt Considine (34:39) Does it Jeff Warne (34:41) it the so I sat down, where are we now? We're in my brain is fried. We're in September of 26. So I would say it was about a year ago. I took all my notes that I've been my ideal club that I've been planning since 2001. would write everything. I've sent myself an email and compiled all these notes. And I sat down and I said, gosh, I've I've bought this property, I'm getting ready to do a golf course, and I don't have any sort of document or brochure. So I just took the notes and just hand wrote them and then typed them in and they're just bullet points. Not necessarily in any order, just bullet points. Then I sort of organized them a little bit. This process maybe took me 40 minutes because I'm a slow typer. So we got that done and then I can't remember where I sent it first. I just put it in like a like a PDF. But not even, I'm not smart enough to put it in a PDF. I had it in a Google Doc. It eventually ended up in a PDF. And someone was like, well, you know, what do you got going on? Can you send me some stuff? I said, look, all I have is these rough notes here. And these are guys like you and I. They were like, man, this is awesome. It's all you need. I'm like, great. Matt Considine (35:42) Yeah. Jeff Warne (35:44) So it is the best litmus test I've ever come up with. It is unbelievable. Like there's there's some people that you and I might not choose as our ideal force. And I'm telling you to a person, they read this and they like, you know, you you need to have, let me get somebody to work on this for you. There's some good ideas, or let me get somebody to work in. And I'm like, no, no, no, I'm good. And they'll send it off and they'll come back. And it is awful. And it'll have the word exclusive, state-of-the-art, The Professor (36:14) Mm. Jeff Warne (36:15) private, magnificent, luxury. here's my pet peeve, manicured. And I'm just The Professor (36:21) Yeah. Jeff Warne (36:21) like, I'm just like, wow, you just took my whole ethos and just destroyed it with six words. I'm like, no, I'm good with, and it has been the best filter. I cannot tell you how many people have run it through. Like, let me help you out. And they run it through AI. It comes back with the exact same buzzwords that I just listed. And I'm like, no, you kind of missed the point here. And it's great because I've had fifteen hundred people reach out to me for information. You have to send me an email. Like a text isn't gonna I'm like send me an email because I'll lose it otherwise. I'm like they call, they're like, hey, let's talk on the phone. I'm like, nope, you need to read my doctrine before you before I'm gonna answer questions. So And I guarantee you out of that 1,500 people that there's a large majority that have looked at it and go, man, this guy's nuts. I'm not, I'm not doing that. Because it the document is basically what we're not doing. It's what we're doing, but it's also what we're not doing. We're we're not getting excited about the size of the lockers or whether the men's locker room is bigger than the women's locker room. I there's no problem there because there is no locker room. So you're gonna just you just I'm not gonna worry about stuff like that. We're gonna have great golf. We're gonna have super interesting greens, and all this has come to fruition. I wrote all this hoping we'd have great golf, knowing the site, but now I'm seeing it happen. I'm like, wow, you know, and everybody on site, I've got the construction crew applying for memberships, I got the architects applying for membership, I got golf pros applying for membership, I got so many people into industry, which are the best kind of members, because they're busy doing other things, but when they're there, they bring good people and they're very knowledgeable. So Place just sells itself. And I as you said, the word is expectations. You need to be there for the golf. You need to be inclusive of the other people that were there. If you're a single and I've got a full t-shirt, you're not going out by yourself. You're gonna make three new friends this day, or two new friends, whatever, whoever's around, and that's gonna be and then you'll never have that happen again where you're stuck as a single because you'll have friends and off this will go. And I did this at the bridge. I used to ride around. When we first opened we had forty members and if I had thirty six players it'd be thirty-four singles and a two. And I would ride around in my cart and I'd pick people up and they go, my wait, I I gotta put out again. Nope, you're going to number two. You're gonna meet Mr. Smith. 'Cause you guys can't play by yourself. You gotta meet some people and pretty soon they now they're all friends and now you look at our T sheet and it's most most well I d I don't wanna give a number here, but clubs that are expensive, very expensive. Tend to be populated with people that worked really hard to get where they are, and they may or may not have the best social skills and they may or may not be that athletic. So they get self-conscious about their golf game and they don't want to show game to everybody. And once they meet the other person, they find out that they're just like they are, they have the greatest time. And you go to our T-sheet now. I I was just looking at it last week. I was down in South Carolina, I just looked at it, so he was playing. The first sixty people, it was fifty-eight members and two guests. And this isn't the height of the summer in the resort area. That is not what's going on at the other clubs in the

Hamptons. It's member three guests. Two members, two guests, member three guests. And our members play with our members. And that's that's what makes it all work. Because if they all brought three guests, they would no one would be able to get a tea time. So it's it's camaraderie, it's getting to know people. That doesn't mean you can't bring a guest, of course not. I intend to let people want to bring seven guests, but I also want them to each time they're there to meet two or three people that next time they're planning a trip on short notice, maybe they can just pick up the phone and say, hey, I'm going down, you want to make a trip. And it wouldn't be three of their friends. It'd be part now. This is a terrible business plan for me because I could charge guest fees. So I might need to rethink that philosophy. But it's the culture is going to be a club, not a resort that people that paid money have access to. It's going to be a club. And the Palmetto is the best example of this. I'm never going to compare myself to Palmetto because there is no better than Palmetto. something to aspire to. They have a large national membership. They also have a large local membership. And if you play in a tournament there, it's 50-50. It's half locals, half you know, a of the nationals know the locals and they play within the dogfight together and it's it's not one guy bringing seven guests. It really is a club and that's the aspiration. The Professor (40:28) That's brilliant, Jeff. I think that's, you know, a million dollar question for a lot of a lot of golf course golf club runners is how do you get a membership to unify around each other, you know, and truly be a membership in a club. And yeah, you brought you brought up that sort of early deck you you've got. And I brought up the PDF. I save it. I have a whole folder full of decks from clubs, right? And I have one folder that cut that's called aspirational. And your your PDF sits in that. I'll read just a couple quick ones for Jeff Warne (40:53) Un unedited by the way, since the original sit-down, unedited. It was changed from a Google Doc to a PDF by somebody smarter than me. The Professor (40:55) Unedited, you know, the no n no sp no spa no spaces after yeah, no spaces after commas, like just clean like fully copy paste. I'll read a couple for our audience just real quick before we ask you a question. Matt Considine (41:07) And but pr Professor, before you do though, I just want to make it clear. Like when we talk about expectations, I I the professor probably sent it to me, Jeff, when I saw it. And obviously my curio I've seen a lot of proformas and so many friends who have built great clubs and and they're beautiful documents, right? And but again, with your ethos and everything you just said of what you want new Honda B, if you would have made this thing as beautiful and slick as a isn't that sending The wrong expectations. So I just wanted to call that out. How it's it's so I admirable that

you stuck with it because you you got the the heart in it. Go ahead, Professor. Sorry to cut you off. Jeff Warne (41:38) The same the s and I can't tell how many people that I respect and know and are icons in the industry and friends of mine and teachers, whatever they are, that I sent the PDF to sent it to someone else and it came back just polished. And I was like, that's the same guy who's gonna walk over and find some comma Bermuda that got into the sod and worry about it being a different texture on the right third of this fairway. And I I absolutely couldn't care less about that stuff. You know, Mo Moan Bermuda's Moan Bermuda. And if you if you're worried about which strain of Bermuda we got in there and one's a little different color 'cause it's been dry, you need not apply. It's just that simple. When you go to the UK, they're having a fantastic summer there. I don't know if it's a great summer for people that have to maintain those courses and regrow that grass this fall, especially if they don't have irrigation. But as a player, holy cow, you got every color going on. Even the courses that are irrigated are enjoying it. You got every color going on. And Brian Schneider was just on a crazy trip where he played a bunch of common ground golf courses and pictures were just so amazing but you're thinking about it go man they don't have irrigation where they gonna be come October they need to grow that grass back but right now it's a player's delight now are we gonna be that fiery no because we're in on Bermuda grass and we're in the southeast where it's gonna rain it's gonna take care of that but I'm just not worried about the odd weed I said to Kyle the other day we're growing in there's a lot of weeds growing in they're growing first of all they stabilize the soil So, you know, he was fretting a little bit. I said, Kyle, you you read my document. You've heard me on these podcasts. I said, as long as the the weeds aren't a concern for you, like if they're they're interfering with your coverage. I said, But the odd weed that's mowed, who can tell the difference? You know, unless it's dry and then they they they they're getting a little brown at a different rate than the grass. I said, but I want texture. I don't want a monostand. Like there's people out there that get paid a lot. superintendents to have these perfect monostone stands. And I respect that they're doing what they've been paid to do. I just don't like their golf courses. The Professor (43:43) Yeah. I mean you say it right in your document, you know, we're gonna embrace native vegetation, right? And that's gonna be yeah, that'll be celebrated, Jeff Warne (43:50) That's been the challenge. The Professor (43:53) not bulldozed and then replanted to modern conformity. I mean Jeff Warne (43:56) And and right now we're out there replanting a bunch of stuff that got bulldozed. So it meaning meaning it's not The Professor (44:00) That's Matt Considine (44:00) There you go.

Jeff Warne (44:02) as it's not as bulldozed as the wrong word. It got it gets beat up by construction traffic. not bulldozed. so it's easy to say things and then you gotta live the reality. You criticize other projects and then you live the reality, that's how that happens. There's a lot of traffic out there. The good news is a lot of this stuff when you close those roads, it's coming through the traffic, so it it made it. But what I will tell you is When I saw that property had been burned, professionally burned and thinned, it was spectacular. You could see across every hole. And I walked out as well. This is golf. I gotta have this is unbelievable. And then this new guy, me, bought it, and two years later you couldn't see your hand in front your face because that vegetation just grows like crazy. And they don't burn every year, they typically burn every two years, and I didn't burn. And you know, Kyle and I got brush hogs all winter and clearing it out and like in the winter you're like, this is great, look at it now. And then March, April, May and hit and the jungle returned. So you have got to be on top of it. we have a guy, Zach Livingston, who spent a lot of time on the forestry multure, which is more aggressive than the brushhog. And we want the native stuff down, but I want it to still be in the soil to to not erode and to grow back. And We've got it under control now, but we really had to get Zack to get down there who's an expert and get it at just the right height where it's still there. And now it just looks great. And you know, it might you could be up against the root at all. And I'm not saying you could go play golf if you're forty yards in the woods now, but it looks fantastic. But for a while there it really got away from us. We had so many other priorities and you couldn't see from hole to hole and So it's a challenge and Kyle's a busy guy and I'm not gonna be given that big a crew to maintain the golf course. So the the vegetation that we preserve, of which we've preserved an awful lot, and we reintroduce, you know, where places where it was scarred from from from clearing or construction traffic, that's gonna take a little time and we're not gonna be hitting that the ideal time because we're still out there grassing right now, so tough to grow stuff in December. But the point would be that's something more I'm gonna be taking charge of because I'll have time once we finish here it and yep and we'll get a lot slower here in the next two weeks and then I'll permanently be down there starting Halloween. But that's a that's a five, ten year project. I look at the tree farm and how great their their their vegetation is. They're six years into the project, you know, it's fantastic over there and it takes a little time to get things dialed the way you want to get them dialed. Matt Considine (46:29) Yeah, Jeff, the the thing that jumped off at me around and I love that you're getting to the realities of it and and it's fun to dream and talk about the visions of of you know, these golf these places of our golf dreams and and having the opportunity to to to try it for anybody is such a a privilege and and something obviously near and dear to your heart. But I love getting into the realities of it. The vegetation there, that's a great example of it. And something I wrote down I I knew I wanted to mention and ask you about. in the brief is a hundred as you said, a hundred percent invested in less rather than fifty percent on more. I think I know what that means, but what does that mean in the actual budget? Jeff Warne (47:04) stole that from I stole that from Kyle Harris actually our project manager Matt Considine (47:09) Really, okay. Jeff Warne (47:10) I'm not sure what it means either it just sounded good that's the only buzzword Matt Considine (47:12) I I I just it was one of those things you Jeff Warne (47:14) I have in my document it's the only correction I made Matt Considine (47:18) Well, it's one of those things that you read, you underline, you're like, Yes, it's something I I recognize, you know, we're we're spending a lot on more in golf broadly, whether it's the local community down the street or it's the local private club. And I I just love seeing it. And and then I then I'm asking myself, what does that mean in practice? And where are the guardrails? You know, is it fee structures and and member caps or you know the the the yin and yang to at all the balance of how you allocate costs and how you keep things affordable. Jeff Warne (47:50) You site selection. and that helps a lot. You know, every person that's worked on it, construction crew, architects, you know, I think they're doing a lot. I'm like, man, do we really need to move that dirt here or there or whatever? I think they're doing a lot. And they're like, This is the least we've ever done anywhere we've ever been. They to a man, they say that and I'm watching these pool, you I'm watching the dollars go across the property and here and there and And they're like, we're we're moving nothing compared to and they had a they had a budget, conservative budget, and we're only at a third they're they're projecting we're only gonna be at a third of the moot dirt they thought we would move. And most of that's because we had to dig a lake. We had we had no water on the property, so we had to big a dig a lake, which the fifteenth hole plays over, and we had to move that dirt somewhere, which became the sixteenth fairway, and didn't manage that soil perfectly and ended up with some of the clay as the sixteenth fairway. So there's always little challenges that We had sand coming out of there, but so much came out, somehow the sand didn't make it to the top of that fairway. So there's the things that happened that got a lot of smart people on the site. I'm not talking about myself, I'm talking about the people building it and managing and about sixty people running all different directions. It's hard

to come up with exactly that. We got a little out ahead of our skis by because we were so far ahead. Original plan was to do eleven holes and then come back. not open the other seven and then come back in like February, March, grub those and then get them irrigated and ready to plant, come May 15th, be ready to go with all that. And like, man, we're so far ahead, let's just go ahead and open these holes up and grub And now we're like scrambling, my gosh, we gotta get grass on these cause winter's coming. And you know, basically September 30th is sort of the end of the growing season. So we're spending a lot more money right now on sod than if we just sprigged it. But it turns out the property's got a lot of steep spots and we needed to sprig an awful lot of it anyway. And I'm like, you what, we're gonna have to sprig it anyway, let's just do it now, which creates a cash flow problem. You're spending money that you planned on receiving in the winter for memberships, and suddenly you're accelerating your expenses. But I think it's the right thing to do and it's gonna keep us well ahead of schedule, you know, a year from now when we're open, we'll be open, not So, but there's nothing as perfect and nothing is as simple as you thought it would. But I will say there was nothing but pleasant surprises until say two to three weeks ago. And now we've had a little we're just back down to reality. We're just down to pleasant. But we were literally nothing had gone bad until three weeks ago. And it's all solvable and sod is a great panacea. The Professor (50:17) Jeff, well I'm I wanna circle back on this realities, things in terms, you know, the the economies that are at play here. And you mentioned, you know, this thing two, three weeks ago, changes to finances. I'm most passionate about, you know, your teaching. Yeah. Jeff Warne (50:31) Changes my finances. It doesn't change any and it it's you know, there's it is what it is. The Professor (50:35) That yeah, and that's one of those things I wonder, like have you felt Matt Considine (50:37) Ga you gotta have a founder willing for that, that's for sure. I know that's true. The Professor (50:40) have you felt pressure throughout any of this process to shift away from the UK model? Because as you've gotten in the realities and be like, man, that my like maybe gotta I gotta bend a little bit rather than being eighty twenty, I'm gonna be seventy, thirty. You know, what's that tension look like for you as the person getting this off the ground? Jeff Warne (50:57) No, because the UK model I can shift as you should s like let's say that let's just say every single person listens to this podcast and joins in the next three weeks. And I'm a full club in April, which is, you know, not gonna happen. Let's just say that were to happen. In April it's it's the week before Masters and I'm book solid and and you call up and you wanna play, I'm gonna be like, I I I I can't, I got members. So I c I can be completely f it's only on a space availability basis. So if I don't have that space availability, it means I'm hitting and out of the park with membership. If I do have that space availability, I can fill it with people that want to play the golf course. So there's total flexibility to it. So I have promises made to the members, but I don't have any promises made to to people wanting to play the golf course in April. If we have space available, we'd love to have you, but it My members have taken up all the times, you you're gonna get a non-prime time. There's no golf course in the world that you can't go play at three o'clock in the afternoon, especially in April. It doesn't get dark till eight. And a perfect example of that is Palmetto during the Masters. They sell their tea times out to non-members. I'm a member there, and I go play there at four o'clock during the Masters, and there's no one in front of me, and I finally catch them on about the 15th hole, which happens to be where Palmetto comes back to the clubhouse. The Professor (52:17) huh. Jeff Warne (52:17) And it's perfect. So th there's just no matter how busy you are, there aren't people playing golf that late in the afternoon. They have dinner plans, they have whatever plans. And I'm not worried about that at all, other than my obligation to my members to have them within reason have access to the golf course. Yeah, you probably can't call two days before and get a Friday morning tea time the week before or the week after the matches. You'll probably need to plan that a little bit like any club. Matt Considine (52:45) Jeff, it have you you've been around s so many great clubs for for decades. What have you seen a shift in this? Because I think what you're describing is so logical that you could, you know, have that yield management if there's availability, you know, to to allow for visitors and and that's a new revenue line. But I think what that requires is is kind of a different psyche or a different maybe it's a a different culture. of how we look at memberships and and frankly, membership sales. You know, the things that have sold memberships in the US for a long time is typically exclusivity and, you know, ha scarcity having the thing that that not everybody has access to, but overseas it's been it's been different. Have you seen that change? Jeff Warne (53:27) If you if you want to join a club because it's exclusive, you should join somewhere else. There's plenty of options in the Aiken area. And I would just say to you, that's non negotiable. That doesn't mean you're not gonna you're gonna be blocked from getting to tea. That doesn't mean the course is gonna be overrun. But it also means that on a Sunday afternoon and we're, you know, say we're booked solid from eight o'clock till one thirty. That doesn't mean I'm not gonna have two groups that play at two fifteen, which are gonna totally not interrupt your game at eight thirty. But it doesn't it doesn't mean by any

stretch you're gonna call and you can't get a tea time because it's full of UK model people in the morning. That's not that's not the model at all. It's a shoulder season and or availability. Just the same as UK clubs do it. The Professor (54:16) Do you think, Jeff, that that's gonna become a more popular approach in the US over time? because a lot Jeff Warne (54:23) It already is. The Professor (54:24) of clubs right now reject that approach or just don't want it. But I I feel like it's yeah. Yeah. Jeff Warne (54:27) Well, because of COVID, they they they their their status quo got reestablished during the recession, so they took on a ton of members and now now they're all issue here in a second. they're they all got into golf. And so their members they had four hundred members and now their model needs to be two hundred because all of their kids play golf. That model got set up during the recession. Those people got to a place where they can play golf. Now their kids play, their wife's plays. Suddenly their membership has more than doubled. So they can't take on the unaccompanied. I'm starting from zero. So I can set my number based on, look, 200 members might be the all I need. We might be busy enough with that. The dues come in and we're having some shoulder season the unaccompanied play. That may be all we need. If a recession hits, I might need 500. You just never know. Matt Considine (55:14) Yeah, it it's it's it's a I'll never forget I I was over in St Andrews and actually a former captain of the R and A, we were talking about this topic and he said to me, My membership is no less important because you got to play the old course today. And and I think Jeff Warne (55:31) Exactly. Matt Considine (55:32) you know, your your your answer is in practicality. And and I like what what I'm also hearing 'cause you're so close to it, Jeff, with with obviously New Holland, but other clubs as well, that there's an it sounds like it's also just it's not about everyone who's in the market for a golf membership is the candidate. It's there's enough of the people you're describing because of how much outreach you've had around this, i you see a big demand for it as well, that there's people that want this type of membership. Jeff Warne (56:01) Well the the document just tells you what we're doing. And there's Matt Considine (56:04) Mm-hmm. Jeff Warne (56:05) people that I'm sure get it and don't reply back 'cause they're like, I got lot of other choices in acon I'm gonna do that. Although those choices are drying up. I mean old Barnwell's full, tree farm Matt Considine (56:13) Yeah. The Professor (56:14) So The golf course. Let's turn our attention to that. That's obviously anybody that knows, I get so mad at country clubs. Your asset is a golf course. And so many country clubs start operating in different ways that they think their assets are these other things. It's like, no, if you don't have a golf course, you don't have a country club. Tell us about New Holland. Tell us about the golf course. Like what is it that, like, hey, if every member left Jeff Warne (56:32) Yeah, I The Professor (56:36) tomorrow, you're still gonna have visitors one to come there. Jeff Warne (56:39) When I first walked on the property, I mean I've been looking. This isn't the first property. This is probably the hundredth property I've been on and For instance, the land that's a tree farm I walked on in twenty fifteen and every property in that area I know pretty well and this one I just kept driving by 'cause it from the gate doesn't look that it does now because we've built a bar and we've cleared it out and you can see into the property, but you couldn't before. So the property is first and foremost so different. the tree farm's right across the street. It is a great property, my first love. and that was the one that got away and we all had that high school. school girlfriend that we thought was the one and then we met our wife and like what was I thinking? And the tree farm's a great property, it's a great golf course. But this property is so different than anything that's getting built today. It the scale of the ups and the downs and the ridges and the punch polls and the things that Most people, if they're fortunate enough to be architecture geeks like us, has been on a golf course that's under construction. And they have all these fancy renderings and you see the rendering, that's what this hole's gonna look like. they're gonna put a bunker there, they're gonna put a bunker there. And you see the rendering. But when you walk around it, you're just like, you don't know a green from a bunker from a fairway because they haven't done it yet. Anyone who plays golf pretty seriously on New Holland could not only lay out a good golf course, but they could see where it needs to be laid out. It is it's all right there. Like people that come on that property try to write me checks. And I'm like, wait, wait, got an application process. You know, I need to we need to go look. I can't tell you how many people have tried to hand me a check on that property, or have handed me a check because I already knew them and it was just like, hey, I want you to see the property, I want you to be comfortable before. you do it and that is not anyone's issue. They might have an issue with exclusivity, with me, with the weather, anything, but the property is they are, everyone's all in there. So the golf is smaller scale. We've left a lot on the property. we've left an awful lot of trees. That may or may not inhibit our ability to grow grass in certain places, in which case we'll remove those trees. But you'll never know till you tried. So the scale is very, very different. There are wide open prairie holes that were there. The previous owner meadowed about 40 acres. There's stunning holes, big wide fairways. You're playing up and over a blind shot. You got a 75-yard wide fairway. You're down the trees. You

know, the first hole looks so intimidating. And I kept saying we gotta clear a little more than you go down and you measure, and it's 80 yards wide fairway, but it looks intimidating because of all the trees that are down there. And their dog legs, there's up and over. There's punch bowls. If you see it, you're sold. It's just that simple. And and by the way, right now it's a construction site. And there's some, you know, you see my Instagram pictures and people like, man, we're gonna open in October. I'm not sending you the holes that are dirt. I'm sending you the holes that look good because I'm trying to sell you a membership. But it there's plenty of holes right now that are shaped, but they haven't been grasped yet, and they're they're a ways away. And we're frantically going around this week. We'll have triple team on sod getting going, but we're not gonna play Meaningful golf this year in November. There might be some guys out, there might be four holes that you can go play as a member in December. But we're opening a year from now as far as eighteen holes ready to play golf, great condition, good greens, good fairways. But you can see it, especially now with the grass on the ground. But even before the grass was on the ground, when the trees had simply been cleared, you could see the golf. The green sites are so natural that Everybody that comes here is excited, including, like I said, the people that are building it, they all want to join. And as much as we've talked about culture on this program today, I still think that's the most important. the golf course is gonna be better than the culture. And I hope that the cultures attend. That's that's a tricky one, that's management. can see the golf course, I see the people that are building and I see the land and the condition, like any new golf course, will be a new golf course. But in time, and it may take us more time than other places because we're we we're trying to gravitate towards more natural and not clearing it out with a bulldozer and then reseeding it and planting it. And in some cases we that didn't work. So we we are gonna have some bare spots and we're gonna have we're gonna look like a construction site for another nine. 10 months. That's the nature of the beast with a new golf course. But I can't tell you how excited the people working on that project. The hours they're working are insane. construction company is building three courses right now: 21 Club, the Gilroy, which are both great projects. The Gilroy is probably the closest thing to ours as far as scale and topography and trees. And they're all working seven days a week. They're going right off their jobs. Those are wrapping up to us. Plus, the construction Company happens to be the construction company for Augusta National. They have a little bit going on in the summer. So these are busy people sacrificing their time, and you'd The Professor (1:01:06) Mm. Jeff Warne (1:01:06) think they'd be angry and upset

that they're working these hours, and all they talk about is how much they like being a part of the project. They want to join. The owner of the construction company is on board. He wants to buy memberships for all these guys. So it's just shocking to me and very encouraging but amazing that it isn't just a business to these people, it's also a passion. If they're as passionate. design. Matt Considine (1:01:27) Jeff, there there's we certainly love to talk about culture on this show, culture of clubs, culture of different countries and golf. And I couldn't agree more. You know, the course is is always gonna be as important. It's the thing that people are coming for and and it but it also the course can impact the culture. And this might not be the best way to ask a question, but I've definitely heard you more than anybody else talk about, you know, try to catchphrase it here, firm but slow. We're talking to you at an interesting time now. How's that coming to grips? It might be a little early, but is firm but slow Jeff Warne (1:02:01) Going to Matt Considine (1:02:02) still panning out? Jeff Warne (1:02:05) Well, that's way too early. Right now it's being heavily irrigated to keep alive at a hundred and two degree temperature. So it's super soft and slower than slow 'cause, you know, it's sod. So it's yeah being cut at it's probably being cut at three quarters of an inch right now. So you we're we're miles away from that. You gotta get the grass to grow before you start giving it different cultural practices and and right now literally we're trying to keep it all to get it to grow and to keep it alive in the heat. Bermuda loves heat, so that's the time to grow grass, but you know, we have a lot of grass to put down still. Matt Considine (1:02:36) Yeah, it's it's I I think it's it's such a good example of a decision that's being made for the course that'll maintain or impact the culture of your club. And I'm wondering what other examples around the golf course do you think will do that? Jeff Warne (1:02:49) Interesting question. I want to back up on the other one. Firm can be achieved very quickly on greens because they don't have any root structure. You're going into a sand base. Most new golf courses have firm because they don't have any thatch yet. So they're too firm. They're rock hard. So I don't we're not going to have any problem mean you know having firm greens in the beginning. Every new course has that generally too firm. So you know, Brian's charge was told that, hey, these greens aren't going to run that fast, so I need a lot of slope in them. The Professor (1:03:14) Yeah. Jeff Warne (1:03:15) And as I look at them, I'm always worrying there's not enough slope. And what's happening is they're starting to grow. I'm starting to see the slope come alive. It's like I couldn't see it in the dirt and with the early sprigs. And I'm starting to see it now. The greens will run at the speed that makes the most sense for the greens. So if they need to run at 11, they will. If they need to run at nine, they will. So then you can play golf and have interesting pins. Modern golf is being run backwards. You've got all these interesting old school courses that were built a hundred plus years Ago and they're forcing modern agronomy on them, fast greens, so overall stip meaning fast. And then they're having to retrofit those greens because suddenly that 5% slope doesn't work on that classical golf course. And no one says your greens are too fast. They all that greens goofy. that green, I put it off that green twice last week. we gotta The Professor (1:04:00) Uh-huh. Jeff Warne (1:04:00) we get we need more pin placements. Like they just invented that term. They don't need more pin placements, they to slow the greens down. So it's mind-numbing. To watch otherwise intelligent people come to that inclusion that suddenly your 120-year greens don't work anymore. So I have to rebuild this green rather than just raise the, you know, raise the height that'll run at 10 or 11 rather than 13 or 14. 15, 16 now are real numbers. That used to be a joke. People, greens are 15. Those are really. I've played the bridge when it's 15. It's Twenty will be twenty will be out there in our lifetimes. And that'll be the most boring green you've ever played. It'll be a pool table and all our greens are twenty. They're they're better. I'll be No, your greens are terrible. They're just fast. Because they have to be terribly designed to be played at a twenty. They have to be flat. They have to be a pool table. So you know, no one thought pros would be hitting at 350. They are. No one thought they would get greens at twelve. No one certainly thought they'd get them to fifteen, but they are fifteen at places at times now. So I don't see twenty as being out of the problem at all with all the research and the time and the talent that goes into creating that, I certainly see that. So whatever our greens wind up, you know, Brian's a great architect, but he doesn't know exactly what greens those need to be. When he built Sabonic, he was told they would run at nine. Well they run them at 13. So people complain and call the greens goofy. They're not goofy. They're being run at the wrong speed for the design that he built. The Professor (1:05:23) Jeff, I love this topic about green speeds because yeah, I'm with you that we've just we neuter the interest of a golf course because, hey, in my opinion, give me interesting golf greens and it's gonna be an interesting golf course. I don't care what happens from T to green. If the greens are interesting, that will make for an interesting golf course. And I think a lot of the Scottish golf courses prove that. But I want to ask a more personal question to you on this topic. You've been in the game forever. You obviously have thought Deeply about the game. Was there ever a moment in your life where you were, hey, green speeds, let's get them faster? I love fast greens.

Cause I know as a player, when I was a player, I always putted green speeds well. Like, so give me a 15, 14, 13. And that's when I was a great putter. Nine eights, I'm just an average putter. So when I was in my playing career through college, I'm like faster greens, smoother greens, faster greens, smoother greens. But now I'm becoming you, where I'm like, man, Golf cour golf is boring because we have to build pancakes and pin everything on a half percent or less grade. Jeff Warne (1:06:24) Well we all want smoother grades. I don't think there's any controversy there. Faster's relative. So I went to work at Long Cove in nineteen eighty eight and I had been playing golf up in Athens. I'd been working at Athens Country Club. and they had bent greens which were I realized I was a good putter when I went to college. Because growing up on very grainy Bermuda greens it probably stint at six, I would miss two four footers around, maybe a three footer and a four-footer, because if you had a bad stroke into the grain on a grainy Bermuda green, it's not going in. Whereas on Bent, you hit the heel a bit, it'll go right in. So it's relative. So I went I left Athens Country Club where they were faster than I'd ever seen. And I went to Long Cove, they had some serious undulations on those greens, a lot. Of which have been neutered since. And Pete Dyes sort of response to TPC where he softened it little bit. And those greens ran eight. And I just couldn't believe how fast they were. Eight was the number. And I was like, man, there are real greens out there that run ten. Where are those and how do they play golf there? But there was a ton of slope, there were seven-degree slopes in Long Coast Greens and lot of tiers and plateaus. And now you find a green that still has tiers, but it's a flat tier. You might go up a five. Five degree slope, but you come to a place where there's only one degree of slope, or you putt down to a place that's only one degree slope. And the thing about fast greens is super tennis want to keep their job. You have a golf tournament, you play the med open, you play whatever. You you putt downhill. They're never going to put a pin where that ball won't stop. In other words, if you just The Professor (1:07:50) Mm-hmm. Jeff Warne (1:07:51) set it in motion, I mean, I mean just breathe on it. Eventually it's going to settle near the hole because they know if it rolls ten feet by, everyone's going to come in and Complain about that. So, my argument is those fast greens are incredibly easy because all I have to do is set it in motion. It's a lot harder to hit the putt the right distance than it is to set it in motion. But give me that so that same pin. Let's say we we're here at the bridge, we just played our golf year two days ago, our big pro member, best player pros in the section. my first round of golf at the bridge this year, and the greens were lightning. And there were putts that you just set in motion, and the greens were probably. be running 14 and they would settle at the hole. But if you went out the next day where they kind of eased them up a little bit and didn't roll them and now they were running at 12, if you just set it in motion, you're going to leave it three feet short. So now you need The Professor (1:08:37) Mm-hmm. Jeff Warne (1:08:38) to have the judgment to give it enough to get it to the hole, but not so much that it goes ripping by. So good players, good putters love fast greens because they know that no one's ever going to put them where you just can't keep it on the green so then they're just they get their pace right. They're going to make a lot it's easier for good put I love I've always been a great putter. I love fast greens. The bet the tournaments I've won have always been on the fastest greens. I'm not saying build a golf course with slow greens and with slow putts. I'm saying build a golf course where the stemp is lower but the s the slopes support it. The slopes need to support what the speed speed of the green is so that I could have a twelve footer with eight feet of break. But not a twelve foot or with eight feet of break that the higher I go, the more it gathers speed and goes off the green. I can't keep it on the golf course. So I just want these old classic courses to match the speed without blowing up their greens. That's all I'm saying. As you said, they're neutering good greens. And the argument is like, look, if a green's at 14 and it has two degrees of slope, it's going to break just as much as a green at eight that has four degrees of slope. So they say, that's no different until you hit a chip or a pitch or an approach. Now I've driven it on the left side and I've got a bad angle and that green slopes away from me two degrees because my screens are fourteen. If that green slope's away from me five degrees because they run at eight, that really impacts my second shot. So what's happened is putting hasn't changed that much with stems. It's your approaches and your pitches and your shots without spin, a shot out of the rough, they're really affected by the neutering of the slope. You drive it out of position, you're hitting to a green slope and away from you five degrees, and you can't put spin on it, you really have an angle problem. But if it's only two degrees, I have way less of an angle problem. I probably Matt Considine (1:10:16) Jeff, we could keep you here all day, my friend, but we know we're catching at a very, very busy time. and so I I'm gonna I'm gonna ask our our our last question. and we're gonna have you back, I hope, to talk about New Holland and and the updates in the future, but there's so many other things we'd love to dive in with you. But I I I'm curious of this because you you mentioned we we did talk a lot about culture and you mentioned how important it is to to be a club. you know, not not a a destination course, but to be a club and you you've been on this mission for geez, what,

twenty-five years? in twenty twenty-five more years, what is the scene gonna be at New Holland that tells you and your team that you've achieved, you know, that vision for that for this club? Jeff Warne (1:10:59) Well you've just unpacked a lot there, but so if I don't answer the original question, nudge me back. But first of all, we're running around. There's a lot of difficult things happening on the site right now. We were well ahead of schedule, we've had some challenges, we're still ahead of schedule, not as far as we were. A lot of management, a lot of egos, a lot of things have happened in any great project. So that takes a lot of time, a lot of emails, a lot of texts, a lot of phone calls while I'm here running a busy club. And it's a challenge. It's the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. It's also the most fun thing I've ever done in life. But that is easy compared to what I'm gonna face the next however many years building that culture. Let's hope it takes five. Because the golf course I've got an expert like Brian Schneider. I've got Kyle Harrison expert. The Professor (1:11:38) Mm-hmm. Jeff Warne (1:11:39) I have his team. I have, you know. Gray, one of our shapers, Greg Carlton, who's there. These guys are experts and I have ideas, but I'm not an expert, so I went up by and that's a great idea. Or no you can't do that because this is why you can't do that. really okay. Yeah we can do it but we'll have to drain it different. Or you know Kyle back, yeah we can do that but it costs more. So these experts I can bounce ideas. Culture, who who do you go for culture? Where do you where's the culture consultant? So it's easy to talk a big game about the culture but A pro writing a nice letter of recommendation for his member. Me playing 18 tolls with him at Palmetto. Okay, they faked it for four hours. I don't know. You know, you so do you really know your new members? You think you do. So there's training, there's hopefully there's a lot of selection. There's finding out their preferences, there's questions on my application. You know, Burra comes up a lot. that's the course that most of my people, the most number of people that are members is Burrough of every place that we've The Professor (1:12:33) Wow. Jeff Warne (1:12:33) come up with. Yeah, so and somewhere in Charleston's probably second 'cause that's where an awful lot of people are coming from, is Charleston and Charlotte. So Culture's gonna be tricky. That's gonna be a full-time job. I mean, building the bridge culture took a long, long time. And that culture's changed since COVID. so many I I mentioned it earlier. 180 members is our cap. We used to have 210 bags in the bag room. Now we have six hundred and four. Same number, same number, but we have kids. We have spouses. those four kids that were soccer stars suddenly play golf. All of that's happened. So that you know the culture's changed here a lot. Not necessarily for the better, but from what it was. It's just different. Not for the worse or the better. It's just different. And every club has to face that. I have the opportunity to do that from scratch. However, things could change. We could have a recession. The number that we need could go up or down, depending on that, or things could boom even more, and people are founding on my door. So culture is very, very tricky to come up. Now that led me into your original question, which I can't remember what. it was but what was it where do we see yourself in twenty five years so I just Matt Considine (1:13:33) Yeah, what would be the scene? Like paint a picture of the scene in twenty five years, it tells you that was that was done. Jeff Warne (1:13:40) so I just went to we just hosted the Golf here twenty five years and Mike Sweeney, who's the heir apparent to take over as director of golf when I leave here December thirty-first. I'll still have a role consultant, teach up here if I'd like in the summer. But Mike's gonna be the director of golf. And so I said, Mike, I've got a couple of crises down in South Carolina. I'm gonna be gone Monday and Tuesday, and it's for the foundation. Mike has run the foundation, so really it's his tournament anyway. It's a pro member benefiting the foundation that he and I have run together. I'm like, Mike, you know what to do. You've got all your foundation, you know, ducks on a just manage the bridge and so he's he he's giving the closing speech, you know, the the awards and he's you know praising all the sponsors and he's a heck of a speaker and he's giving all the stuff and he I got to hear my own obituary at my own like it was at my own funeral because he talked about me. And I'm like, well I'm not dead, you know, it is the whole description of me and it was really nice to hear someone say something nice about you while you're alive because usually they're saying those things at your funeral and and Sixty three is pretty young to walk away from a job. So I feel fortunate I'm able to walk away on top here and with the bridge being a huge success and booming and having a great The Professor (1:14:47) Mm-hmm. Jeff Warne (1:14:48) success or take over as opposed to me just being there a little too long and you know they kinda propped me up in a corner where they're just waiting for me to die so the next guy can take over or ultimately this happens to a lot of guys, they get a little tired and they they get retired by the club. They're like, hey, this isn't working. So it's really nice to leave on the top. So so leading to our next twenty five years. I'm gonna pick a shorter timeline since I'm 63, let's say 20, where I'm still avidly out there playing, you know, carrying my bag or pushing a cart. I'm hoping you can come down on a plane from Philly or Boston or there's nonstops right into Columbia. Morning flight, show up on the tee, get in the dog fight, have two people that you know and a third you didn't know, or you come down and it's you and you and your

brother-in-law who doesn't know anybody and you get him into a game and suddenly he saying, you know, what do I have to do to be a member, you know? And there's a waiting list and he's got to talk to the right people. And so I wanted to be a thriving club like Palmetto. And I I always go back to Palmetto. But that anyone who's out there listening, this is not a marketing pitch. I'm not a rich, wealthy guy. Wasn't a rich, wealthy guy. I joined Palmetto. It was the greatest thing I ever did. You just pay the money. It wasn't much money. So there was that I joined Southampton Golf Club. It's the greatest thing I ever did up here. That There are there are years when the dues there about ten thousand dollars a year. My one round cost me ten thousand dollars. But being a part of a club, there's no here I am talking to the guys who have a club for people not in clubs. So The Professor (1:16:10) Ha ha. Jeff Warne (1:16:11) it has been Matt Considine (1:16:11) hey, it's a it's a it's it's shifted to about seventy thirty, Jeff. So about thirty percent still are. Jeff Warne (1:16:15) Okay. Well good. Everyone's well after today it'll be ninety ten. So Matt Considine (1:16:19) Yeah you go. Jeff Warne (1:16:21) it's yeah, people might say, I don't like it, they're stuffy, they're snotted, they have all these rules. Public golf is great. Some of my best rounds, my the the course I play up here the most is Gold Hill. It's a nine home uni. I've got 500 rounds under my belt over the last 30 years. That's where I'm where we host our staff championship, which I spent all night working on last night. So public golf is near and dear to my heart, but you generally have to bring your own game. At a club, you can be one of the guys or one of the gals, play with a group, bring new people into that group. My goal is to make that group big, where everybody's in the group and everyone's in the club. So culture, that's where I want to be. in 25 years is if if it's something some compared to Palmetto in 30 years that would be a heck of a compliment. Matt Considine (1:17:02) Well I I I'm definitely inspired, Jeff, by the by the conversation. I didn't know which way we would take it. I know we could have gone a a bunch of different ways today. There's a a lot more what we wanna hear from you on. So I do hope you'll join us in the future. But just wanted to thank you for joining us today and and and sharing what you have. on on such a busy schedule that you're on. I I also want to know who your assistant is and if they're available whenever you retire, 'cause it seems like you're able to manage more in golf than than most most people I've I've encountered. Jeff Warne (1:17:32) You know, COVID changed all that. Our staff doubled in size, and so it's it's much more people with so many more roles. And I was gone in South Carolina, I showed up here and it was it would have been Mike's first tournament to run. And our my head pro who was the head pro to run, he happened to be in Scotland doing a f a photo shoot for Golf magazine. So the heir apparent ran the whole thing and it went off without a hitch, you know, pretty with a incredible speech. And I just kind of wanted to be in the background and it was great to watch him thrive and flourish and watch him because he's a rising star, Mike Sweeney, and it's gonna be, you know, another the bigger question is where's the bridge gonna be in twenty five years? And I think they're a good hand. Thank you. Matt Considine (1:18:09) Well, thank you again for being with us. Professor, thanks to you for your hard-hitting questions as always. And to everybody out there who listens to this show on a weekly basis. Thank you guys for being a part of it. If you're new to the bag drop be a subscriber. That would help us. if you don't want to subscribe, we good rate the show. If you enjoyed the conversation we have with Jeff today, that's actually a small and simple gesture that goes a long way in in helping the professor and I dedicate some time to try to make this show. and our conversations and our research as good as possible, if you want to connect with either our guest, Jeff Warne of New Holland Golf Club, we'll put his info in in our show notes, as well as the professor and myself. We will catch you guys on the next one.