התמלול המלא של What Are Educators Missing About Flashcards? | Andrew Cohen

00:05:02.247 You know, and it occurs to me, um, I didn't tell you I was gonna ask this, but the question that pops into my brain is, do you all have any w- data for, of the people who use Brainscape, how many of them have neurodivergent diagnoses? 00:05:02.737 --> 00:05:11.466 I don't think you would, but it suddenly occurred to me like, oh yeah, it's really good for especially like ADHD brains to have super convenient tools 00:05:12.589 --> 00:05:19.740 We don't ask that much data of our users for, for privacy reasons and just for, uh, you know, ease of, of onboarding reasons. 00:05:19.959 --> 00:05:40.459 But we have a lot of anecdata, uh, from users who have written, you know, public reviews, uh, on the App Store, on Trustpilot, and emails to us saying, you know,"I, I have ADHD, and Brainscape finally, you know, forced me, uh, to focus on my studies, or at least, you know, when I'm, when I'm flagging, when I'm, I'm no longer 00:05:40.596 --> 00:05:41.096 उहं। 00:05:41.490 --> 00:05:44.439 or, or progressing, uh, as much as I have been. 00:05:44.439 --> 00:05:55.069 You know, telling me when to take a break, helping me break my studies into, into, you know, chunks." Um, I've had parents, uh, that have written to us, um, saying similar things. 00:05:55.069 --> 00:06:12.920 I've had people who have autism or their parents have autism that suddenly Brainscape became, uh, a vehicle for their obsession in some random subject like plants or, uh, or rockets or something that they just became s- obsessed with, and suddenly they're studying thousands of flashcards about. 00:06:13.290 --> 00:06:21.670 Um, so yeah, you know, uh, the, the concepts that Brainscape is based upon, uh, apply to anybody of any, any age, shape, 00:06:21.711 --> 00:06:21.870 Mm-hmm. 00:06:21.939 --> 00:06:32.829 neurodivergence, and, you know, they're, they're maybe not the sexiest concepts in the world compared to a lot of gamification, uh, and other, you know, cool AI whiz-bang things that are, that are in vogue. 00:06:33.189 --> 00:06:37.259 Uh, but, uh, you know, good cognitive science knows, knows no boundaries. 00:06:38.343 --> 00:06:48.773 Well, and I feel like you've just given those of us who are academic and executive function coaches for, let's just say, students with autism, a really hot tip. 00:06:48.783 --> 00:07:01.002 Like, if they're struggling to study in ways that we know are effective, maybe set up something like Brainscape for them with something they really do wanna learn and something they really do wanna memorize. 00:07:01.033 --> 00:07:03.723 I think that's actually brilliant and hadn't occurred to me. 00:07:04.569 --> 00:07:10.199 Build, build the muscle with something that they love, and then they'll be able to parlay it to the things that they, you know, have to study 00:07:11.069 --> 00:07:18.718 So is, so we know-- Well, we shouldn't assume actually that people listening know what retrieval practice or spacing is. 00:07:18.728 --> 00:07:29.098 So can

you give us a brief, brief, brief, many are, but can you give us just a quick science of learning 101 about the tenets that Brainscape is built on, and then we're gonna get into all the other stuff? 00:07:29.987 --> 00:07:30.197 Sure. 00:07:30.197 --> 00:07:37.468 So retrieval practice is just the, the act of actually having to retrieve some concept from memory instead of just passively reviewing it. 00:07:37.918 --> 00:07:49.898 Uh, so the way that, you know, most people reflexively study, even, even when you have given them good, uh, advice on how to study, they fall back on just passive rereading your notes, rereading what you highlighted, reading out loud. 00:07:50.307 --> 00:07:54.927 Uh, whereas retrieval, um, might be, you know, multiple choice questions. 00:07:54.927 --> 00:07:56.577 It might be, you know, kinda fill in the blank. 00:07:57.067 --> 00:08:00.997 Uh, Brainscape uses what I call the, uh, the trifecta. 00:08:00.997 --> 00:08:07.197 I- I've called it before the Holy Trinity of learning principles, but I got in trouble for using that phrase at a Catholic school 00:08:07.992 --> 00:08:08.492 okay. 00:08:08.697 --> 00:08:14.697 presentation, so the trifecta of, of learning principles: active recall, metacognition, and spaced repetition. 00:08:14.697 --> 00:08:25.067 So active recall is a form of retrieval practice, but instead of just, you know, recognizing the right answer on multiple choice, you're thinking of the answer from scratch as you would on a flashcard, right? 00:08:25.067 --> 00:08:26.088 Think of the answer, flip it. 00:08:26.447 --> 00:08:28.728 Metacognition, thinking about thinking. 00:08:29.088 --> 00:08:31.887 Uh, so how well did I really know that flashcard? 00:08:31.887 --> 00:08:34.567 With paper flashcards, you know, you put it in the easy pile or the hard pile. 00:08:34.908 --> 00:08:45.628 In Brainscape, you're rating yourself on a scale of one through five on each flashcard, how well did I know that, and then using that self-rating to determine how soon should I see this flashcard again. 00:08:46.075 --> 00:08:46.095 Yeah. 00:08:46.158 --> 00:09:00.668 know, the hard ones come up really soon, the easy ones a lot less so, uh, and that's spaced repetition, which turns out to be the single most important factor in how well you're gonna retain information, more important than any of the other tactics. 00:09:00.668 --> 00:09:08.307 You know, m- mnemonics or telling stories or emotion, all those things might be helpful in, in some degree, but nothing is more important than spaced repetition. 00:09:08.307 --> 00:09:22.437 So with, with the active recall, metacognition, and spaced repetition constant loop, every flashcard you're exercising each of those principles, uh, you're compounding the, the speed and retention of learning, uh, over the medium and long term 00:09:23.558 --> 00:09:33.448 And I feel like there are other tools out there that do the spaced repetition piece, and it seems to me that what's special

about yours is that metacognitive questioning in the middle. 00:09:33.448 --> 00:09:39.278 Is that true that that's sort of the main thing that you all add, or is there something else that I'm not seeing that you all add? 00:09:39.961 --> 00:09:41.812 Yeah, I think that's a big differentiator. 00:09:42.221 --> 00:09:50.272 Uh, but in most other platforms, spaced repetition might be a feature that is, that is sprinkled on. 00:09:50.562 --> 00:09:54.922 You know, maybe there's, uh they've got, they've got some videos, they've got some practice questions. 00:09:54.932 --> 00:10:01.361 Once in a while, something that you got wrong, you know, last week, you know, might come up because it's got, you know, a good algorithm built in. 00:10:01.731 --> 00:10:05.022 Uh, Brainscape, the product is spaced repetition. 00:10:05.032 --> 00:10:15.351 The, the very thing from the ground up is all your knowledge broken down to fundamental building blocks that that are bite-sized, that can actually be repeated. 00:10:15.662 --> 00:10:27.211 All the stats in Brainscape, all the learning journeys, uh, you, you know, your streaks, the number of cards you have overdue, your what you have to do today, is all based in the wrapper of spaced repetition. 00:10:27.402 --> 00:10:36.062 And so what we're, what we're doing in the process, we're really teaching you how your own brain, how your own learning and memory works, so that you're able to take better charge of it. 00:10:36.081 --> 00:10:42.211 And yes, through, through the metacognitive self-assessment is, is, you know, the, the mechanism by which we put it in your hands 00:10:42.630 --> 00:10:58.100 Now, I feel like some more savvy listeners might say,"Wait, if you're assessing how well you knew it or you think you knew it, how-- Isn't that the illusion of knowing?" So I think the timing of when you ask how well they knew it is important there. 00:10:58.140 --> 00:10:58.581 Yeah? 00:10:58.874 --> 00:11:01.224 Yeah, no, you, you actually bring up an interesting point. 00:11:01.264 --> 00:11:10.624 And back in 2007, uh, when this Brainscape was actually, uh, grew out of my graduate research at Columbia University, 00:11:10.849 --> 00:11:11.109 Oh, 00:11:11.254 --> 00:11:18.663 I presented at, uh, Janet Metcalfe's, uh, metacognition lab over on the, the psychology side, um, of, of Columbia. 00:11:19.144 --> 00:11:33.943 And, you know, one of her biggest, uh, criticisms of Brainscape's interface, and it, and it still is by the way, the, the, the same interface, uh, today, is that we ask how well did you know this after having shown the user the answer, not before. 00:11:34.283 --> 00:11:42.153 And you would be correct that the illusion of knowing, uh, would suggest you should ask before you've shown the answer. 00:11:42.153 --> 00:11:43.283 So I'm gonna ask you a question. 00:11:43.303 --> 00:11:48.403 I'm gonna ask you on a scale of one to five, how well do you think you're gonna know the answer, right? 00:11:48.423 --> 00:11:53.464 And then I show you the answer because otherwise now I've biased you by having shown you the answer. 00:11:53.924 --> 00:11:54.235 Right 00:11:54.264 --> 00:11:58.403 how well did you know it before might be, you know, require a level of, of maturity. 00:11:59.403 --> 00:12:08.683 but for usability reasons, number one, having to add a second click for every single flashcard versus 00:12:08.745 --> 00:12:09.384 much. 00:12:09.394 --> 00:12:11.063 the answer and then, and then just 00:12:11.235 --> 00:12:11.455 Yeah 00:12:11.514 --> 00:12:13.614 act of rating your confidence pro- progresses you. 00:12:13.903 --> 00:12:24.913 But, but number two, when you've, let's say, overconfidently rated yourself, you gave yourself a four, which means you don't see the flashcard for, for many days or even weeks, right? 00:12:25.783 --> 00:12:26.533 and then it comes up. 00:12:27.283 --> 00:12:31.053 Uh, well, every time you rate a flashcard in Brainscape, it, it changes color. 00:12:31.264 --> 00:12:32.693 So the four would be like green. 00:12:32.943 --> 00:12:34.464 So when it comes back, it's a green 00:12:34.856 --> 00:12:36.047 Oh, okay 00:12:36.124 --> 00:12:39.214 we're showing you, okay, here, here's a green card from, from weeks ago. 00:12:39.214 --> 00:12:40.474 We're bringing back up this green card. 00:12:41.254 --> 00:12:46.403 when you realize or you're looking at the question, you're like,"Huh, I don't know the answer, in fact. 00:12:46.780 --> 00:12:49.110 But I thought I did back in the day. 00:12:49.221 --> 00:12:49.770 Yeah. 00:12:50.240 --> 00:12:50.490 Yeah 00:12:50.683 --> 00:12:58.744 so what it forces you to do is like, huh, maybe I should recalibrate what I think it means to, to know something a four out of five confident. 00:12:58.964 --> 00:13:00.734 Maybe I should be a little bit more honest with myself. 00:13:00.734 --> 00:13:26.283 So what Brainscape is doing is helping you become a better learner and, and better understand your own illusion of learning, which is gonna not only help you learn this particular subject a lot better, but it's gonna be a skill that you take with you for everything else that you learn in your life, whether you're using Brainscape or whether you're just, you know, reviewing, uh, a document and having to, to make note of like, what should I really write down and what am I truly gonna remember? 00:13:26.504 --> 00:13:31.024 The better you understand yourself and, and your illusion of knowing, uh, the better you'll do. 00:13:31.975 --> 00:13:43.455 I love that, and it's making me think of, of, I'm making my way through Zaretta Hammond's book right now, and she talks about-- I'm forgetting the name of it, otherwise I would name it, but we'll put it in the show notes. 00:13:44.345 --> 00:13:49.274 Um, but we-- She uses the phrase metacognitive and then metastrategic, 00:13:49.823 --> 00:13:50.004 Hmm. 00:13:50.485 --> 00:14:08.585 and I really love that distinction, uh, because in my mind, I don't

actually remember in this moment if this is her definition, but metacognitive is like we're thinking about our thinking, and then being metastrategic is being strategic about the choices we make after we've done that thinking. 00:14:08.595 --> 00:14:18.634 And so it seems like, um, this is an opportunity not only to notice but then to adjust one's actions accordingly in a metastrategic way. 00:14:18.850 --> 00:14:20.950 I might have to steal that term. 00:14:20.950 --> 00:14:23.429 I don't think I'd heard it before, but I'll have to read Zaretta's book 00:14:23.931 --> 00:14:27.110 Well, and are you gonna be in Toronto coming up? 00:14:27.110 --> 00:14:30.490 So you're gonna g- I won't be in Toronto, but she will be, she will be there. 00:14:31.019 --> 00:14:31.629 Oh, perfect. 00:14:31.629 --> 00:14:31.960 Well, I'll have 00:14:32.030 --> 00:14:33.870 So I think she's keynoting there. 00:14:34.309 --> 00:14:34.629 Perfect 00:14:36.893 --> 00:14:37.352 Yes. 00:14:37.403 --> 00:14:37.832 Okay. 00:14:38.082 --> 00:14:43.832 So let's, uh, talk a bit about some of the other ways people study. 00:14:43.913 --> 00:15:17.653 You mentioned mnemonics earlier, and I do know it's sort of my favorite story that when I-- in the past, when I would tell teachers that,"Oh yeah, I'm a study skills expert, and I work with students on figuring out how they can have more independence and agency in their studying," they're like-- they usually get all excited, and,"Oh, I teach study skills to my students." And if I ask more questions, inevitably the first thing is,"I have so many mnemonics that I..." If like, if I'm a science teacher or a history teacher or whatever,"I have so many mnemonics that I connect to all of those." And for them, that is study skills. 00:15:18.033 --> 00:15:26.173 So you just, for listeners, you didn't get to see, but Andrew looks very serious and sort of shook his head slightly to that. 00:15:26.182 --> 00:15:27.923 So please respond. 00:15:29.860 --> 00:15:40.399 I think mnemonics can be useful when there is a sequence that you have to remember, such as the planets, such as the, the order of operations, right? 00:15:40.399 --> 00:15:42.059 You got PEMDAS, you got all those things. 00:15:43.159 --> 00:15:46.090 there's a fixed number of those. 00:15:46.539 --> 00:16:01.960 Um, but when you start trying to come up with a mnemonic for things that weren't necessarily a sequence, it was just trying to, you know, br- bring you a trick, now you have to remember two things when you could have only had to remember one. 00:16:02.389 --> 00:16:10.970 So I remember I was, uh, in, in an anatomy class and, um, y- my teacher was trying to, to teach us the word gastric, right? 00:16:10.970 --> 00:16:12.649 It means having to do with the stomach. 00:16:13.320 --> 00:16:20.139 And she's like,"Oh, you know, if, if you have trouble remembering this," she had this little cartoon that she had sh- she, you know, doodled. 00:16:20.159 --> 00:16:24.929 She put it up

on the, on the screen, that it was a gas truck. 00:16:25.289 --> 00:16:31.549 So re- remember that, you know, your stomach, it's kinda like it's filled with gas and it's shaped as a truck, you know. 00:16:31.549 --> 00:16:33.899 If you do it this way, then a gastric is gas truck. 00:16:34.240 --> 00:16:36.820 Well, now I've gotta remember this visual imagery. 00:16:36.840 --> 00:16:48.580 Maybe it's cute and maybe, yes, we're visual learners, et cetera, but it would've been solved if I had just used good old-fashioned repetition, or as we sometimes call Gopher Brainscape, right? 00:16:48.580 --> 00:16:54.129 Like I didn't, I didn't know the word gastric meant stomach, so great, ask me again in 30 seconds. 00:16:54.129 --> 00:16:56.120 What's the word for having to do with stomach again? 00:16:56.409 --> 00:17:01.240 And then if I got it right, okay, maybe now in three minutes, and maybe then in 20 minutes, and then in hours and days. 00:17:01.570 --> 00:17:07.349 And if you're using Brainscape, that, that sequencing is just automatically built into your ongoing study stream. 00:17:07.349 --> 00:17:17.460 So if with good old-fashioned repetition, you're, you're gonna get that without having to invent additional things that are gonna, in the long run, slow you down. 00:17:17.460 --> 00:17:20.029 So that's my, my beef with, with mnemonics. 00:17:20.029 --> 00:17:27.430 I think, you know, they're cute and they might make learning a little bit more fun and engaging sometimes, but, uh, it's just, it's, uh, extra noise. 00:17:27.849 --> 00:17:30.630 What's, what's been your, uh, your issue with, with mnemonics? 00:17:31.548 --> 00:17:33.858 Yeah, I, I feel, I, exactly what you'd said. 00:17:33.858 --> 00:17:39.598 It, it's, it's extra noise for sure, especially when the teacher is the one who comes up with it. 00:17:39.929 --> 00:17:54.489 Now, if the student, I So I, if I were working with a student and they were really, they've, they've been doing spaced retrieval on their flashcards using Brainscape or not, and they're still coming up, what's the color it would be if it was Brainscape, that they're still not remembering it 00:17:55.713 --> 00:17:56.253 Red. 00:17:56.263 --> 00:17:56.604 Red, 00:17:56.838 --> 00:17:57.179 Red. 00:17:57.374 --> 00:17:57.884 green, blue. 00:17:57.884 --> 00:17:57.973 Yeah 00:17:58.199 --> 00:18:00.308 Okay, so it's consistently coming up red. 00:18:00.578 --> 00:18:06.028 Then I might say to the student,"Okay, let's get out of the digital sphere. 00:18:06.685 --> 00:18:06.925 Угу 00:18:07.348 --> 00:18:15.159 Let's move into our analog sphere." I'm holding up my hands right now to those listening,"And let's do something with it." So gastric. 00:18:15.169 --> 00:18:17.659 Let's see if we can come up with a fun way to remember it. 00:18:17.909 --> 00:18:21.028 But I would keep my mouth shut about the ideas, and I would wait for the student. 00:18:21.048 --> 00:18:32.959 And if they came up with gas truck, and then they drew a little truck, and then they could name the connections, I would be okay with that because it came from them, and it came after a bunch of retrieval practice. 00:18:32.959 --> 00:18:42.699 For some reason, something just wasn't sticking, so we're going to, in the, the language of the learning lab, we're gonna encode it in a new way for a moment and see if that helps it stick. 00:18:42.699 --> 00:18:48.128 So, mm, that's one thing that I'm okay with. 00:18:48.388 --> 00:18:51.338 But otherwise, yeah, it just adds too much friction. 00:18:51.348 --> 00:18:57.318 Like the amount-- What we're trying to do with retrieval practice is make it so we just have access. 00:18:57.528 --> 00:18:59.288 We just have access to the information. 00:18:59.288 --> 00:19:00.148 If we have to go,"Wait. 00:19:00.288 --> 00:19:00.568 Wait. 00:19:00.598 --> 00:19:01.009 I know this. 00:19:01.009 --> 00:19:01.318 Okay. 00:19:01.519 --> 00:19:02.669 There are five letters. 00:19:02.689 --> 00:19:03.949 I think it's the third letter. 00:19:03.949 --> 00:19:05.009 Wait, what's the first one? 00:19:05.241 --> 00:19:05.622 Yeah. 00:19:05.729 --> 00:19:24.689 story for the, for the mnemonic had something to do with Mary Had a Little Lamb, but what part of it was it?" And, you know, you've, you've used also, to use more learning lab language, so many of your working memory parking spots on simply trying to remember the mnemonic that you have very little energy left. 00:19:24.689 --> 00:19:27.548 And then once you remember it, great. 00:19:27.578 --> 00:19:37.328 But you've, you've used your energy trying to remember, rather than let's get it fluent, bring it to our mind, and then do something with it in our minds. 00:19:38.709 --> 00:19:39.409 That's my issue. 00:19:41.506 --> 00:19:42.266 Oh, amen 00:19:44.512 --> 00:19:45.343 Except shh. 00:19:46.913 --> 00:19:47.803 Holy Trinity. 00:19:49.522 --> 00:20:03.772 Um, okay, let's back up a little bit though, because, uh, when you and I were emailing about this conversation, uh, you were saying that the idea of even memorizing is controversial to some educators. 00:20:03.772 --> 00:20:16.702 And at first I was a little confused'cause I was like,"Why would memorizing be controversial?" And actually, I think I know why, but I'd rather have you explain why some, why some folks kinda get mad at you for focusing on memorization. 00:20:17.988 --> 00:20:25.198 I think the word memorization kind of entails of knowledge, right? 00:20:25.198 --> 00:20:28.847 So, you know, there, there's an interplay between knowledge and skills. 00:20:28.857 --> 00:20:31.448 There always has been in, in education, right? 00:20:31.448 --> 00:20:39.587 The, the skills being kind of the critical thinking, the application, the ability to work on group projects with, with executive functioning, and the knowledge being, you know, the facts. 00:20:39.587 --> 00:20:40.407 Do you know the facts? 00:20:41.057 --> 00:20:54.718 Uh, and they've, especially in the

last 30 years with, with the internet existing, um, been a lot of people that have said,"Now if we could just look things up on Google, what's the value in knowing things? 00:20:55.087 --> 00:21:07.778 Uh, why should we not just focus on skills, just focus on, on critical thinking?" and what they always use as kind of the example of, of the knowledge is like memorizing dates, right? 00:21:07.788 --> 00:21:10.678 That, that's always sort of the prototypical, uh, bugbear. 00:21:11.498 --> 00:21:12.988 That's just bad curriculum. 00:21:13.248 --> 00:21:20.357 Nobody should ever memorize, you know, on what date was Archduke Franz Ferdinand assassinated. 00:21:20.357 --> 00:21:21.857 That's just a useless piece of information. 00:21:21.857 --> 00:21:24.458 So yeah, that's, that's I think what people think of as memorization. 00:21:24.817 --> 00:21:46.907 But if, if you had a flashcard or a fact that was, you know, describe the significance of the assassination of, of Archduke Ferdinand or, uh, you know, what, what was the historical setting that lead- led to that, you know, being a, a big deal, you know, that's, that's critical thinking, but it's also knowledge, and it's also a fact that can kind of be flashcardified. 00:21:47.698 --> 00:21:48.728 so I think people often 00:21:49.303 --> 00:21:52.413 Sorry, I just had to f- had to take a moment with that. 00:21:52.413 --> 00:21:53.192 I like that word. 00:21:53.796 --> 00:21:54.346 Codified. 00:21:54.782 --> 00:21:56.153 No, flashcardified. 00:21:56.435 --> 00:21:57.006 cardified. 00:21:58.536 --> 00:22:10.496 Um, yeah, I, I think people often, you know, uh, conflate, um, the idea of knowledge with just what is really a, a problem of bad curriculum, and I think, you know, at the end of the day, you need both. 00:22:10.685 --> 00:22:17.086 Uh, you can't If you're a, if you're a basketball coach, uh, y- you wanna, you wanna teach shooting all day. 00:22:17.086 --> 00:22:19.105 That's where the points are made, right? 00:22:19.105 --> 00:22:21.125 That's, that's where the, the careers are made. 00:22:21.546 --> 00:22:28.766 Uh, but if you haven't taught dribbling, and if the students don't know how to dribble, they're not gonna ever have a chance to, to take shots. 00:22:28.955 --> 00:22:39.895 You can't make connections between objects or concepts in your brain if you don't actually have the s- the facts first living in your brain so that you can notice patterns. 00:22:39.905 --> 00:22:49.705 So I think the, the value is, is really, you know, can we get the knowledge acquisition part out of the classroom as much as we can and make that independent? 00:22:50.036 --> 00:22:52.885 'Cause that's what software is, is really good for. 00:22:52.895 --> 00:22:57.766 Uh, you know, whether it's Brainscape or, or some other, um, platform that's just gonna drill you. 00:22:57.766 --> 00:22:59.115 The, the, the basketball drills, right? 00:22:59.115 --> 00:23:00.576 Go, go do that on, on your own. 00:23:00.586 --> 00:23:01.135 Go dribble. 00:23:01.135 --> 00:23:06.125 Practice for hours, and then you come in, and, and now let's actually do some team drills, uh, 00:23:06.328 --> 00:23:06.628 Угу 00:23:06.895 --> 00:23:11.855 and, have debates or, you know, whatever it is that you're gonna do in class that you can only do with real humans there 00:23:12.851 --> 00:23:15.740 Does the knowing the knowledge come before critical thinking? 00:23:17.503 --> 00:23:18.794 Uh, to a large degree. 00:23:18.804 --> 00:23:21.273 I don't think necessarily has to. 00:23:21.394 --> 00:23:26.673 Um, but I, but I think, uh, the more, the more knowledge you have, the better you're gonna be able to think critically. 00:23:26.923 --> 00:23:38.544 I do happen to think, though, that the critical thinking as a, as a primer, uh, should, should perhaps come at the very, very beginning, but then you're gonna fail at it. 00:23:38.834 --> 00:23:43.013 So, um, for example, you know, ask, ask a big question, right? 00:23:43.324 --> 00:23:57.304 You are the environmental director of this town, and oh my gosh, there is this outbreak of this, you know, plague or all the, all the crops are dying or whatever it is. 00:23:58.364 --> 00:24:01.773 are you gonna, uh, you know, solve this issue? 00:24:02.203 --> 00:24:07.973 And so you're starting to critically think, but you realize, like, I actually hit a wall'cause I don't have the facts. 00:24:07.973 --> 00:24:08.844 I don't have the knowledge. 00:24:08.844 --> 00:24:12.213 I don't know, you know, what, what these pests are, et cetera. 00:24:12.334 --> 00:24:17.003 And then you're gonna have to go find the knowledge, and then the more knowledge you get, the better you're gonna be able to critically think. 00:24:17.003 --> 00:24:31.124 So I always think, you know, start with why is, is really important, but, but be prepared to fail, but at least you've given a reason why the student wants to actually learn the knowledge, and they're not just learning it in a vacuum for the sake of nothing, and then, oh, we'll apply it later. 00:24:31.443 --> 00:24:34.523 They're just not gonna care while they're, while they're in the learning process. 00:24:34.919 --> 00:24:43.858 Well, and I feel like there's a real reciprocal relationship between knowledge and higher order thinking or critical thinking or whatever we wanna call it. 00:24:43.919 --> 00:24:53.019 Uh, because yeah, I love the just-- the scenario you painted, and even just thinking about what are the buckets of knowledge that I might need to truly answer this question? 00:24:53.028 --> 00:24:53.818 That is... 00:24:54.318 --> 00:24:59.868 It's really wonderful thinking, and I even think about how, you know, three, four, five-year-olds are always asking,"Why? 00:25:00.179 --> 00:25:00.298 Why?" 00:25:00.990 --> 00:25:01.170 Vai, 00:25:01.209 --> 00:25:04.788 And they haven't even understood what you just said, and they're asking why. 00:25:05.019 --> 00:25:14.398 But it's almost I, I, I just

realized that in this moment, it's like, oh, the impulse to know why, and then mom or dad or whoever answers, and then you're starting,"Oh, that's a word. 00:25:14.409 --> 00:25:14.989 That's a word. 00:25:14.999 --> 00:25:15.519 That's a word. 00:25:15.519 --> 00:25:17.798 Those are all concepts I need to understand." 00:25:18.375 --> 00:25:20.445 Yeah, we're still wired to, to learn that way. 00:25:20.445 --> 00:25:23.506 I think the, the system just sort of like beats that out of us'cause 00:25:23.689 --> 00:25:23.989 हम्म। 00:25:24.016 --> 00:25:27.226 we're, so used to answering questions instead of, instead of asking them. 00:25:27.226 --> 00:25:29.435 So yeah, start with, with the asking process. 00:25:30.016 --> 00:25:37.445 And, you know, I think there's probably a lot of constructivists maybe that are even listening to this conversation who are thinking,"Well, see? 00:25:37.465 --> 00:25:43.846 Because these, these knowledge-based, uh, concepts are gonna come out through inquiry. 00:25:44.105 --> 00:25:49.865 They're gonna come out through We, we give students a project, now they're going to research'cause they care." That's where the knowledge comes in. 00:25:49.865 --> 00:25:51.655 You don't have to study it in flashcards. 00:25:51.655 --> 00:25:53.135 That's just the drill and kill part. 00:25:54.096 --> 00:26:06.036 and, and the sad reality though is no matter how great the activity was, no matter how great the instruction was, just because it was great and we learned it through inquiry doesn't magically mean it's gonna stick in our heads. 00:26:06.076 --> 00:26:06.806 And so we, we 00:26:06.982 --> 00:26:07.313 Right 00:26:07.365 --> 00:26:14.705 a, a mechanism for that deliberate retrieval and, and practice to truly, uh, encode that for the long term 00:26:15.229 --> 00:26:18.679 Well, no, I think actually the existence of AI is an example of that. 00:26:18.709 --> 00:26:23.878 I mean, how many fascinating conversations have I had with AI that were true inquiry? 00:26:23.959 --> 00:26:26.838 I had a question I was motivated to find the answer about. 00:26:26.898 --> 00:26:36.409 I stayed engaged for a half hour or an hour with whatever the question was, and then couldn't recall it later to tell my friend about it. 00:26:36.409 --> 00:26:42.239 Just,"Oh, I had this fascinating chat about XYZ, but I don't remember the details." 00:26:42.488 --> 00:26:57.738 about creating, and I don't know how this would even work, but like a, a plugin to ChatGPT or Claude or kind of all of them that would prompt you if you're learning something, uh, from it, after it told you, it would say like,"Would you like me to add a flashcard for this and throw it 00:26:57.742 --> 00:26:58.143 Ah, 00:26:58.397 --> 00:26:58.708 And we have 00:26:58.742 --> 00:26:59.182 yeah. 00:26:59.548 --> 00:26:59.698 or an 00:26:59.772 --> 00:27:00.462 Oh, wow. 00:27:00.883 --> 00:27:01.363 That would be cool 00:27:01.667 --> 00:27:02.228 so that, yeah. 00:27:02.228 --> 00:27:09.468 And then, and then if you, are studying that flashcard later, there could even be a link in the footnote, like go back to the conversation where you 00:27:09.689 --> 00:27:10.249 उहम्। 00:27:10.407 --> 00:27:15.748 you're, kind of blurring the line between the, the, the practice of knowledge and the, and the acquisition or 00:27:15.813 --> 00:27:16.423 I love that. 00:27:17.147 --> 00:27:17.397 Yeah. 00:27:17.452 --> 00:27:30.252 Yeah, and there's, there's also a fluency where I, I haven't seen the research on this, but I'm guessing it's there, that the more knowledge you have and the quicker access you have, then you can make more connections more quickly. 00:27:30.252 --> 00:27:40.403 And I imagine it's also related to overload, where you don't wanna be filling your working memory as you're thinking about things with stuff you just only kind of understand. 00:27:40.563 --> 00:27:46.413 You can do more interesting thinking if you really get it, and then you can hold more in your working memory too 00:27:47.001 --> 00:27:48.182 That's a really good point, yeah 00:27:48.817 --> 00:27:57.896 Okay, so we've got lots of different kinds of educators listening, but most of us are doing some kind of one-to-one support with students around their learning. 00:27:57.906 --> 00:28:02.676 So what have you learned about what makes the best flashcards? 00:28:05.539 --> 00:28:07.079 I used to say 00:28:07.644 --> 00:28:07.654 Hmm. 00:28:08.339 --> 00:28:11.329 they should all be bite-sized 00:28:12.381 --> 00:28:12.911 Interesting 00:28:13.410 --> 00:28:17.470 only one small concept per card. 00:28:18.529 --> 00:28:27.359 In fact, I believe a lot of our Brainscape Academy and, and advice out there still says that. 00:28:27.660 --> 00:28:38.809 And I think for most cases that, that makes sense, especially if I'm, if I'm in a flow, I'm studying, you know, a bunch of flashcards, and most of them are bite-sized, and all of a sudden I get, like, this essay or something like that. 00:28:39.940 --> 00:28:48.309 but occasionally there may be a role for large meta thinking flashcard. 00:28:48.623 --> 00:28:49.042 Mm. 00:28:49.279 --> 00:28:58.130 Um, and you know, you probably should put those type of flashcards in, in a deck of their own so that it doesn't mess up your chi if you're studying a bunch of vocab or, or something like that. 00:28:58.799 --> 00:29:07.269 Um, you know, like describe the process of how photosynthesis works and, like, pretend that you're teaching it to a five-year-old kid. 00:29:07.430 --> 00:29:09.119 That might take you minutes, right? 00:29:09.130 --> 00:29:16.339 That- that's, like, not a quick flashcard, and maybe the answer of the flashcard, maybe there's even a little micro video and, like, a whole bunch of, you know, bullets. 00:29:16.839 --> 00:29:23.609 Um, so I think what makes a good flashcard is it should be tied to a learning objective, but the learning objective could be a big one. 00:29:24.133 --> 00:29:24.492 Hmm.

00:29:24.539 --> 00:29:25.980 there are bite-sized learning objectives. 00:29:25.980 --> 00:29:33.640 There's each, each step of photosynthesis or each, you know, vocab word in photosynthesis, but then one objective is just can you describe the process? 00:29:34.179 --> 00:29:34.578 Mm-hmm. 00:29:34.670 --> 00:29:39.130 and so, you know, that- that's made me really think more broadly about what a flashcard can be. 00:29:39.450 --> 00:29:47.450 Um, I've actually been using, uh, Brainscape to, to learn guitar, and you think,"How can you le- learn guitar with flashcards," right? 00:29:48.799 --> 00:29:58.039 but you know, every, every exercise that I've learned or even song really, but even, even just a lick, even just, like, a little scale exercise, um, I write it down. 00:29:58.039 --> 00:30:01.069 E- eventually, these could be little video clips, uh, but they're, they're... 00:30:01.089 --> 00:30:05.910 I'm literally just describing what the, what the exercise is, or maybe, like, putting a little picture of tab or something. 00:30:06.400 --> 00:30:09.890 Um, and then so I'm, I'm going through flashcards as just my... 00:30:09.920 --> 00:30:13.099 It's as if it's my coach telling me what exercise to do. 00:30:13.099 --> 00:30:16.859 So I'm like,"Oh, that was a really hard drill." Like, I'm gonna give myself a one or a two. 00:30:17.210 --> 00:30:19.869 Remind me every five or ten drills to go back to that. 00:30:20.829 --> 00:30:23.720 oh yeah, that was the minor pentatonic in position A. 00:30:23.759 --> 00:30:24.710 That was pretty easy. 00:30:24.710 --> 00:30:25.980 I could do it relatively quickly. 00:30:26.210 --> 00:30:27.589 I'll give myself a four or a five. 00:30:27.599 --> 00:30:32.519 Like, remind me maybe in three months to go back to that in case I forgot it, but, but it's pretty easy. 00:30:32.710 --> 00:30:36.779 So doing that with songs, doing that with, with, with anything, and so those are not bite-sized. 00:30:36.940 --> 00:30:40.769 So but they are their individual learning objectives, so, um, yeah, 00:30:40.858 --> 00:30:41.689 And they're skills. 00:30:41.689 --> 00:30:43.878 They're not just pure knowledge, they're skills. 00:30:44.036 --> 00:30:44.695 Very good point. 00:30:44.695 --> 00:30:47.316 Yeah, you could put, you could put skills on flashcards too. 00:30:47.476 --> 00:30:52.526 And so one, one of the things, uh, I, I think you said you were gonna maybe ask me about like what goes, what type of 00:30:52.717 --> 00:30:52.896 Ja. 00:30:52.935 --> 00:30:54.306 works well on flashcards versus 00:30:54.356 --> 00:30:54.497 Ja 00:30:54.576 --> 00:30:55.395 makes a good flashcard. 00:30:55.895 --> 00:31:01.276 Um, one of the other answers that I always would give is like,"Oh, Brainscape's great for everything but math." 00:31:02.260 --> 00:31:02.500 Ah. 00:31:02.596 --> 00:31:07.455 there's really good math software out there that I like a lot that's adaptive, right? 00:31:07.455 --> 00:31:08.486 The questions get harder.

00:31:08.486 --> 00:31:10.836 And so yeah, Brainscape is, is kind of for knowledge. 00:31:11.885 --> 00:31:31.546 but when I was just touring the UK, where, you know, we have a lot of schools that are, that are using Brainscape school-wide in the UK, uh, some of the, the departments and teachers who were most enthusiastic about Brainscape, whose students had spent like hundreds of hours in the product over, you know, the couple years that they've been shepherding them through, were the math teachers. 00:31:31.905 --> 00:32:12.546 And I'm like,"How are you using Brainscape for math?" And they were literally, they were taking photos of the whole math, like the word problem or whatever, uploading the photo into Brainscape, it could be geometry, whatever, and then they would tell their students with their little like whiteboards,"Do the work, show the, show the part, and if you, depending on how well you, you got the answer, when you reveal it in Brainscape, rate your confidence in that, then erase the whiteboard and go on to the next flashcard." I'm like,"There's gotta be a better way." But they, they were so obsessed with the Brainscape confidence-based repetition algorithm to drive the students to deliberately be practicing their math problems that they prefer Brainscape to, to all this great, you know, math software, Spark Math, like one of the things that they were using. 00:32:12.546 --> 00:32:16.346 So yeah, I mean, I think skills, to, to your point, skills can 00:32:16.436 --> 00:32:16.676 Uhum, 00:32:17.346 --> 00:32:22.665 in, in a flashcard as long as, you know, you're really kinda breaking down what's the learning objective I'm trying to accomplish here. 00:32:23.462 --> 00:32:27.272 Well, we're now talking about two of my favorite things, which is flashcards and whiteboards. 00:32:27.282 --> 00:32:30.702 So I just have to say I got a little excited there. 00:32:30.990 --> 00:32:31.859 queen alert 00:32:34.702 --> 00:32:44.292 And in-- So I use something called the study cycle to tell students this is everything I think you need to know about the very complex science of learning in three steps. 00:32:44.772 --> 00:32:51.472 And when I draw the study cycle at the bottom, I sometimes draw a basket, sometimes I draw a book. 00:32:51.472 --> 00:32:52.772 It kind of depends on what I draw. 00:32:52.972 --> 00:33:05.103 But I say,"This..." If, if it's the basket, let's say,"This is your container of all the knowledge and skills that your teacher wants to get into your body and brain." And I always use the word skills. 00:33:05.133 --> 00:33:13.143 Even though I know when students hear me teach it, and even when educators hear me teach it, they hear mostly the knowledge word and not the skills word. 00:33:13.153 --> 00:33:35.432 And so I'm really excited by what you're saying because it is a way to, to really have the flashcards, um, direct your full study process, not just your memorization process, but your rehearsal of the skills that your teacher is needing you to show, whether it's guitar or whether it's can you solve this whole math problem. 00:33:35.442 --> 00:33:37.893 I think that's really exciting. 00:33:38.752 --> 00:33:49.153 So I feel like our next conversation needs to be about what does it take if you are a student-- I mean, you mentioned that teachers can create flashcard decks for their students. 00:33:49.682 --> 00:33:59.603 And but if you are a student yourself or if you are a coach of students, what, what goes into creating a deck? 00:33:59.613 --> 00:34:02.153 How time-consuming or how hard is it? 00:34:02.153 --> 00:34:04.363 'Cause I imagine there's a little friction at the beginning 00:34:05.913 --> 00:34:09.003 If you're using AI, it's, it's relatively straightforward. 00:34:09.224 --> 00:34:18.574 Uh, you could upload pretty much any type of, of notes or lesson material and, and it's scary good, uh, how, how well the flashcards spit out. 00:34:18.594 --> 00:34:21.164 And it's, it's not just using, you know, ChatGPT's prompt. 00:34:21.173 --> 00:34:21.523 It's... 00:34:21.914 --> 00:34:29.583 Brainscape has actually spent years refining these prompts with, with our own data and our own guidelines of what makes a really good flashcard in Brainscape. 00:34:29.583 --> 00:34:33.724 So we're, we're breaking down the, the question and answer into their, their primary part. 00:34:33.724 --> 00:34:36.474 We're putting, you know, supplementary information into footnotes. 00:34:36.474 --> 00:34:38.023 We're bolding keywords, et cetera. 00:34:38.753 --> 00:34:44.213 Um, and, uh, that, that sort of sets you up, uh, really, really nicely for, for spaced repetition. 00:34:45.164 --> 00:34:55.204 now one of the, um, very valid, uh, concerns about that is that by letting AI make the flashcards for you, are you taking away, 00:34:55.784 --> 00:34:55.894 Right. 00:34:56.403 --> 00:34:57.373 interrogation, 00:34:57.755 --> 00:34:58.125 Right 00:34:58.414 --> 00:35:01.634 important, um, part of, of learning deliberately too. 00:35:01.679 --> 00:35:01.929 Mm-hmm. 00:35:02.224 --> 00:35:15.403 Um, and so, uh, in using AI, if you are gonna, gonna use AI to, to speed up the process,'cause I get it, like the, the barrier of making all your own can, can just be a barrier to getting started to begin with, so I get that you'd wanna use AI. 00:35:15.893 --> 00:35:18.293 Um, but you should keep a couple of things in mind. 00:35:18.293 --> 00:35:35.293 Number one, make sure that you're reviewing the information really, really well,'cause not only could AI make mistakes, um, it could, it could perhaps ask things in a way that's maybe different than how your teacher had, had said it in class or, you know, than, than the original notes. 00:35:35.664 --> 00:35:45.054 And so by, by reviewing the flashcards before you just accept them and, and then start studying them later, uh, you're, you're still using a little bit of elaborative interrogation, right? 00:35:45.054 --> 00:35:48.824 The, the

higher level Bloom's Taxonomy, um, evaluation of the content. 00:35:49.684 --> 00:36:03.583 Um, and then more importantly, make sure that you're still taking all that time that you saved from not having to make the flashcards and use that time to actually study those flashcards more spread over a longer period of time. 00:36:03.583 --> 00:36:08.023 So the, the reason I was actually at ResearchEd, the conference that we were just at, you know, in St. 00:36:08.023 --> 00:36:18.324 Louis this weekend, uh, was presenting a study that Brainscape did using a lot of, uh, data of Brainscape users who had either used AI to make flashcards or made flashcards manually. 00:36:18.733 --> 00:36:19.873 And we found that those who 00:36:20.125 --> 00:36:21.885 And manually within the app. 00:36:22.025 --> 00:36:23.554 I just wanna clarify that. 00:36:23.605 --> 00:36:23.885 Yeah. 00:36:23.938 --> 00:36:24.327 thank you, for 00:36:24.465 --> 00:36:24.625 Yeah. 00:36:24.717 --> 00:36:25.097 Yeah, yeah. 00:36:25.215 --> 00:36:25.394 Yeah. 00:36:25.728 --> 00:36:26.197 digitally. 00:36:26.744 --> 00:36:26.945 Yeah 00:36:27.268 --> 00:36:28.958 Uh, on, on a keyboard. 00:36:30.458 --> 00:36:40.807 it turned out that those who made their flashcards with AI actually studied those flashcards less than those who had made them themselves. 00:36:41.297 --> 00:36:57.708 And, you know, we, we kinda dug into the reasons there, and there's a psychological bias when you use AI, and you probably get this whether you're ChatGPT, you know, help explain this to me, that fact that you use such a magical technology that, that real- I mean, it's mind-blowing, as we all know. 00:36:57.708 --> 00:37:01.998 It, it almost creates the illusion that because I used magic, I must... 00:37:02.018 --> 00:37:03.387 it must have stuck in my head, so 00:37:03.697 --> 00:37:03.936 Угу. 00:37:03.958 --> 00:37:07.297 don't need to actually, uh, study these as much. 00:37:07.297 --> 00:37:10.318 It's almost like a moral licensing that, like, AI did the work for me. 00:37:10.951 --> 00:37:11.280 Right. 00:37:11.418 --> 00:37:15.757 because you didn't have the, the effort of making the flashcards, you need to study them even more. 00:37:16.077 --> 00:37:32.668 So, um, you know, use Brainscape's, uh, stats, or if you're a coach out there and you're, and you're making flashcards for or with one of your students, uh, use Brainscape stats to really guide you to spread your studying over time, and there's a lot of different stats that help you build those habits. 00:37:33.128 --> 00:37:45.398 Um, and, you know, finally, if, if you're a younger student, and younger can mean a lot of thing, you know, whether it's, uh, study skills young or, you know, age young, uh,'cause a lot of people don't really learn how to study well until they're older. 00:37:45.398 --> 00:37:56.197 But it is really helpful to have an experience studying lots of well-made flashcards first before you're unleashed to make them. 00:37:56.628 --> 00:38:11.277 Um, and so if you've never really studied a lot of flashcard, hundreds of flashcards, uh, you know, for a topic, uh, you probably should, whether it's using AI or whether it's using, you know, pre-made flashcards, which is another, you know, source of not having to make them yourself. 00:38:11.768 --> 00:38:15.137 Um, but just use, use a lot of good flashcards first. 00:38:15.137 --> 00:38:22.967 Kinda like if you're gonna be a musician, you need to play a lot of covers of great musicians who have made stuff first before you're writing your own. 00:38:22.987 --> 00:38:23.697 So, um, 00:38:23.869 --> 00:38:28.048 And even listen to a lot of, listen to a lot of covers before you even play them 00:38:28.057 --> 00:38:30.768 to a lot first, then play the covers, then make, make your own. 00:38:30.768 --> 00:38:31.088 So, 00:38:31.677 --> 00:38:32.067 Ja 00:38:32.088 --> 00:38:35.538 shame in using AI, uh, to sort of offload the, the creation work. 00:38:35.538 --> 00:38:42.657 It will speed up a lot, but really make sure you still do the work'cause the learning, the real learning always happens deliberately, and 00:38:42.684 --> 00:38:43.494 Ja 00:38:43.588 --> 00:38:46.318 to be in the, in the studying and rating of those flashcards. 00:38:46.972 --> 00:39:00.682 So, um, this makes me think, and so any Learning Lab members, Anti-Boring Learning Lab members out there listening to this podcast right now, please remind me that I am about to say what I'm about to say, which is that I think we should put together... 00:39:00.682 --> 00:39:03.682 And I don't know, Andrew, maybe you could help us with this if you thought it were a good thing. 00:39:03.682 --> 00:39:08.922 But we should put together some kind of a deck of different kinds of flashcards. 00:39:09.983 --> 00:39:23.742 There wouldn't be too many of them, but maybe even just 10 different kinds of flashcards that we could use in our coaching to have students analyze, like work with and analyze to feel like what makes a good flashcard question. 00:39:23.742 --> 00:39:43.822 And anyway, I, I think it's brilliant what you just said, and if you're going to be working with students around improving their study skills, yeah, a little analysis of what makes an impactful card, and then analysis of the process with somebody else's information that you already know or kind of know might be better 00:39:43.871 --> 00:39:52.251 article on the Brainscape Academy actually that Brainscape's learning coach, Thea, put together that sort of shows, uh, you know, good flash- or bad flashcard, good 00:39:52.704 --> 00:39:52.885 Ah, 00:39:52.931 --> 00:39:53.092 right? 00:39:53.264 --> 00:39:53.585 aha. 00:39:53.672 --> 00:39:55.322 at these and, and, and what's wrong with it. 00:39:55.351 --> 00:39:58.871 So it could be a good, good asset for any coach to sit with a student 00:39:59.036 --> 00:39:59.407 Ja 00:39:59.501 --> 00:40:05.161 you know, really think critically about, uh, you

know, how, how to make yourself successful with retrieval practice 00:40:05.360 --> 00:40:08.590 Well, if you look and find that, we'll put the link in the show notes'cause 00:40:08.737 --> 00:40:09.088 Awesome. 00:40:09.451 --> 00:40:11.820 that would be, useful for people, I think. 00:40:12.521 --> 00:40:18.601 Okay, that totally distracted me from, um, what I was going to ask next. 00:40:18.610 --> 00:40:22.090 So let me just look at my, uh, list for a moment. 00:40:22.101 --> 00:40:25.621 Oh, well, at some point I did wanna ask you, so maybe this is the next thing. 00:40:25.650 --> 00:40:31.081 When-- Like, are, are paper flashcards still useful and needed? 00:40:31.411 --> 00:40:32.771 Like, what role does 00:40:33.019 --> 00:40:40.099 for, younger kids, um, I, probably don't want them using, you know, that many devices, at least not on their own. 00:40:40.349 --> 00:40:47.769 You know, we- Brainscape does have early childhood, uh, education flashcards, uh, for, for kids as long- as young as, like, three, right? 00:40:47.769 --> 00:40:53.039 We've got and careers and sight words and letters and numbers and stuff like that. 00:40:53.449 --> 00:40:57.699 Um, but you know, that's, that's really kinda made for you to sit with your parent, and you're 00:40:57.744 --> 00:40:58.125 उहं। 00:40:58.559 --> 00:40:59.099 together. 00:40:59.099 --> 00:40:59.340 It's, 00:40:59.565 --> 00:40:59.824 उहं। 00:40:59.849 --> 00:41:01.219 not kinda like a fun kid game. 00:41:01.550 --> 00:41:08.219 Uh, but for the most part, um, I think, yeah, anything that, that gets kids off of phones and, and on the analog is, is great. 00:41:08.530 --> 00:41:18.150 Um, and also, you know, Brainscape in particular, I can't speak for other, you know, Quizlet, Kahoot!, you know, other, other, uh, companies that are sort of in the flashcard space. 00:41:18.619 --> 00:41:28.429 Um, but Brainscape in particular best or, or is, I guess, most successful when you have a lot to learn, right? 00:41:28.429 --> 00:41:31.860 So you're in a, a science class, a history class. 00:41:31.869 --> 00:41:36.769 There might be, you know, hundreds of flashcards worth of information, uh, to study. 00:41:36.769 --> 00:41:41.269 If you've got 30, you know, flashcard, you know, 50, uh... 00:41:42.320 --> 00:41:45.889 How many multiplication table flashcards could there possibly be, right? 00:41:45.920 --> 00:41:47.050 You know, dozens. 00:41:47.530 --> 00:42:01.710 Um, the, the benefits of, of the optimal spaced repetition algorithm compared to what you might do manually by putting things into piles or working with your parent or something, uh, aren't, isn't that much greater with Brainscape versus the others. 00:42:01.719 --> 00:42:04.659 So, um, yeah, I'd, I'd still play with the manual things. 00:42:04.659 --> 00:42:09.219 But if you've got a lot to, to learn, especially if you're, you know, even higher education. 00:42:09.219 --> 00:42:13.340 I don't know how many of your, your clients are, you know, nursing or doctors or lawyers. 00:42:13.896 --> 00:42:14.666 Absolutely 00:42:14.940 --> 00:42:22.530 oh my gosh, yeah, Brainscape just be an order of magnitude more compounding, uh, benefits of learning, uh, compared to analog. 00:42:22.972 --> 00:42:30.413 Which is one reason why Brainscape has super taken off in the UK is'cause they have the GS- GCSEs or whatever, however you say it, 00:42:30.708 --> 00:42:31.027 yeah 00:42:31.583 --> 00:42:33.523 the A levels, right, that they have to prepare for. 00:42:33.523 --> 00:42:36.413 So they really do have a very massive amount of information. 00:42:36.413 --> 00:42:38.862 So also AP students here, 00:42:39.307 --> 00:42:39.568 Yeah. 00:42:39.652 --> 00:42:41.202 might be an example. 00:42:41.753 --> 00:42:42.023 Yeah. 00:42:42.572 --> 00:42:54.472 Um, I remember what I wanted to say before when you were talking about AI flashcard-- AI-generated flashcards inside Brainscape, uh, creating the sense in the student that like,"Oh, look at that. 00:42:54.652 --> 00:42:55.193 I did that. 00:42:55.202 --> 00:42:56.532 They look great." Look, 00:42:56.630 --> 00:42:56.929 Угу 00:42:57.603 --> 00:43:04.213 I, I think there's, yeah, an additional thing where it's like, I did that because you asked the, the AI to do it. 00:43:04.213 --> 00:43:09.353 You feel you did it even though the thinking itself was done outside of your head. 00:43:09.643 --> 00:43:14.213 I've noticed that in myself when I'm engaging with AI that I do, I feel proud of myself. 00:43:14.552 --> 00:43:20.523 Even like a, a picture that I generated, I feel proud of myself for generating a picture, but I didn't do anything. 00:43:21.123 --> 00:43:21.423 Yep 00:43:22.643 --> 00:43:34.583 But the other piece I wanted to say is it's not all that different than what I've seen in students when back in the day when we were just making paper flashcards is you'll be like,"Oh, I have so many flashcards I have to make. 00:43:34.583 --> 00:43:38.463 Let me sit and watch TV and just make all the flashcards." And so you're mindless. 00:43:38.472 --> 00:43:40.623 Like you're like,"Oh, here's the word, here's the definition. 00:43:40.623 --> 00:43:40.882 Okay. 00:43:40.882 --> 00:43:41.143 Okay. 00:43:41.143 --> 00:43:48.713 Here's the word." And you're just copying, and you're paying attention to The Cosby Show is what I was watching back in the day when I was making my flashcards. 00:43:50.302 --> 00:43:55.362 And it's a similar kind of mindlessness, and then you're done, and you're like,"Oh my God, I just studied. 00:43:55.393 --> 00:44:00.753 I just studied for an hour and a half," when all you did was watch TV and make your big stack of flashcards 00:44:00.768 --> 00:44:07.398 probably also depends, and that, that's actually a, a great point to, to bring it back to the generation of, of flashcards. 00:44:08.918 --> 00:44:16.918 if what you're doing is just making vocab flashcards, word definition, you're probably copying from, you know, a glossary

or something like that. 00:44:17.297 --> 00:44:22.418 So even, even making those flashcards manually, manually, whether it's writing them or 00:44:22.643 --> 00:44:23.052 Uhum 00:44:23.108 --> 00:44:27.478 into Brainscape, um, it's not really elaborative interrogation. 00:44:27.478 --> 00:44:33.068 You're not really processing the information in a way that, uh, is gonna be, uh, an added benefit. 00:44:33.068 --> 00:44:36.617 So yeah, scan, scan a PDF of your, of your 00:44:36.740 --> 00:44:37.210 Mhm 00:44:37.248 --> 00:44:39.347 or something like that, or, or upload a CSV 00:44:39.503 --> 00:44:39.983 Mm-hmm. 00:44:40.248 --> 00:44:40.777 just as good. 00:44:41.143 --> 00:44:41.452 Right 00:44:41.467 --> 00:44:45.677 you're, if you're taking long form lesson content, right? 00:44:45.677 --> 00:44:52.487 You're taking a textbook and you're thinking,"Okay, those four paragraphs of, of information, I can make one flashcard for that. 00:44:52.487 --> 00:44:53.867 What was the main idea here? 00:44:53.867 --> 00:44:59.818 What was..." Like, if I were to condense that into one question with one main answer and, like, three bullets, that's, that's real thinking. 00:44:59.818 --> 00:45:05.478 And so, you know, that, that's gonna be hard to do while you're watching TV, and even if you do, it's, it's, it's worthwhile. 00:45:05.478 --> 00:45:11.998 So yeah, thinking through the type of flashcard, um, and you know, how, how important is it for you to do the 00:45:12.300 --> 00:45:12.820 उहम। 00:45:13.498 --> 00:45:16.657 uh, is, is a part art, part science situation. 00:45:16.731 --> 00:45:24.820 I, I appreciate you sharing that because that elaborative interrogation process that you just described is what in the Learning Lab we call honing your notes. 00:45:25.065 --> 00:45:25.306 Угу 00:45:26.021 --> 00:45:29.331 we have a distinction between notes and then quizzable study tools. 00:45:29.331 --> 00:45:37.621 But the ideal is as students get better and better and better with their skills around study skills, you can do both at the same time. 00:45:37.621 --> 00:45:45.521 So a flashcard is what I would call a quizzable study tool, but you can also be smart about how you hone your notes onto your flashcards. 00:45:45.780 --> 00:45:49.190 So you're not just doing it in the same order that the teacher's doing it. 00:45:49.190 --> 00:45:56.891 You are creating-- You're seeing your own categories, and main ideas, and clumping and chunking in different ways. 00:45:57.630 --> 00:46:04.181 And taking a moment, even if you have AI creating them, to then just say, like:"Yeah, how did this-- did this work? 00:46:05.210 --> 00:46:08.701 How did it go?" Before you move on to the next flashcard. 00:46:08.721 --> 00:46:12.340 That to me is similar to when students are working with paper flashcards. 00:46:12.360 --> 00:46:20.641 Instead of just writing the list down, every one, before you write it on your flashcard, you'll say to yourself:"Okay, what does this term mean?

00:46:20.731 --> 00:46:31.420 Do I know this?" So you're using the making of flashcards as a retrieval practice, and whether that's happening analog or whether it's happening digitally on Brainscape, it's still an important moment. 00:46:31.653 --> 00:46:36.693 paraphrase, the, the definition maybe or something that, that forces you to process it a little bit 00:46:37.052 --> 00:46:37.483 Yeah. 00:46:37.793 --> 00:46:38.193 Yeah. 00:46:38.603 --> 00:46:58.443 So, like, just minutes-wise, let's just say a kid is really,"Oh my God, this test, we just got the date for the test, and it's two weeks from now, and I'm feeling so overwhelmed." And a, a coach is thinking like,"Well, let's set him up with some flashcards and see if we can do that." Is two weeks, first of all, too short a runway for a test? 00:46:58.682 --> 00:47:00.083 W- does it need a longer runway? 00:47:01.753 --> 00:47:04.123 It depends, and that's so funny that you just bring that up. 00:47:04.123 --> 00:47:15.014 We just published an article in the Brainscape Academy, and we can throw that in the, in the old show notes, uh, that has a calculator, a l- nice little slider, uh, that, that helps you determine... 00:47:15.014 --> 00:47:23.244 And it, it's, it's less about, um, is this enough runway and more about whatever your runway is, it's gonna be a fact of life, right? 00:47:23.244 --> 00:47:25.804 You have a test coming up and today's the day you started thinking about it. 00:47:27.884 --> 00:47:33.793 how much do you have to study each day with good spaced repetition to be ready instead of, you 00:47:33.817 --> 00:47:35.547 Mm-hmm. 00:47:35.813 --> 00:47:42.983 And so if you, if you've studied even just a little bit in Brainscape, we already can, uh, calculate for you, well, here's your pace of mastery. 00:47:42.994 --> 00:47:45.653 You're mastering this, this subject at, you know, 00:47:45.679 --> 00:47:46.539 Oh, cool. 00:47:46.614 --> 00:47:47.963 hour or something like that, right? 00:47:48.289 --> 00:47:48.608 Yeah 00:47:48.634 --> 00:47:54.074 your pace, you, you just put it into this little calculator, and you put a little slider of, well, how many days left until my test? 00:47:54.074 --> 00:47:58.023 And it's gonna say,"You need to study, you know, 17 minutes a day," or something like that. 00:47:58.153 --> 00:48:03.664 And it needs to be every day because if you miss a day, now it's, now suddenly it's gonna be 20 minutes or 25 minutes. 00:48:04.063 --> 00:48:06.273 Uh, so you might wanna pad it or something like that. 00:48:06.284 --> 00:48:11.503 So yeah, go ch- check out, check out our calculator if you are using Brainscape or if your students are using 00:48:11.677 --> 00:48:12.086 Ja 00:48:12.114 --> 00:48:15.523 you can, you can give really good guidance, uh, to help pace yourself 00:48:15.994 --> 00:48:16.114 Yeah. 00:48:16.525 --> 00:48:17.724 And is there a cost? 00:48:18.065 --> 00:48:18.954 I mean, there is a cost. 00:48:18.985 --> 00:48:20.264 People pay for Brainscape, right? 00:48:20.264 --> 00:48:20.994 So what is the cost? 00:48:22.320 --> 00:48:23.739 Uh, well, freemium. 00:48:23.809 --> 00:48:24.769 Uh, so you 00:48:24.820 --> 00:48:25.081 Aha 00:48:25.280 --> 00:48:27.340 you, can make your own flashcards in Brainscape. 00:48:27.369 --> 00:48:30.119 You can share with other people in Brainscape. 00:48:31.170 --> 00:48:33.369 you can track all your, all your 00:48:33.628 --> 00:48:34.088 Şöyle bakalım. 00:48:34.219 --> 00:48:35.690 your spaced repetition in Brainscape. 00:48:36.070 --> 00:48:41.139 You, you will hit paywalls if you, um, wanna use a lot of AI to make flashcards. 00:48:41.139 --> 00:48:41.360 I think 00:48:41.487 --> 00:48:41.887 Aha 00:48:42.440 --> 00:48:47.289 two or three, uh, uploads worth of AI-generated flashcards, and then, and then you'll need to upgrade. 00:48:47.730 --> 00:48:56.000 Um, adding like images or media to your flashcards just'cause we need, we need a credit card to identify you, uh, in case you're abusing uploading 00:48:56.793 --> 00:48:57.572 उहम्। 00:48:57.820 --> 00:48:59.010 pages, if you know what I mean. 00:48:59.659 --> 00:49:15.590 Um, and, uh, if you're a school or a, or a teacher and you want dashboards of, of stats of how all your students are doing or, uh, extra privacy rights for, for all your, uh, all your data and things like that, then, then we'll do school licenses. 00:49:15.610 --> 00:49:17.280 But yeah, Brainscape, totally free 00:49:17.405 --> 00:49:17.755 Great. 00:49:17.820 --> 00:49:18.489 to get started. 00:49:18.829 --> 00:49:19.280 We give, 00:49:19.355 --> 00:49:19.775 And I love 00:49:19.949 --> 00:49:21.119 for free than, than others. 00:49:21.119 --> 00:49:21.400 Yeah. 00:49:21.949 --> 00:49:30.239 Yeah, and the fact that AI is limited means that you have to be thoughtful about is it worth it right now to try using AI, and I like that. 00:49:30.829 --> 00:49:39.429 You just brought up images, and that made me think because I'm just such a fan, again, of the analog and, and the analog and the digital combined. 00:49:39.798 --> 00:49:40.909 How easy might it be? 00:49:40.909 --> 00:49:47.989 Let's say I do want to, um, there are a bunch of complicated words, and I do want to draw some images to help me remember them. 00:49:48.438 --> 00:49:54.119 How easy is it for me to do my own drawings and upload those into my flashcards? 00:49:54.340 --> 00:49:58.840 As easy it is to push the photo button and, uh, and upload it right there, yeah. 00:49:59.139 --> 00:49:59.309 You 00:49:59.387 --> 00:49:59.657 Great. 00:49:59.677 --> 00:49:59.956 Cut 00:49:59.980 --> 00:50:01.349 mobile, app or, or web app 00:50:02.045 --> 00:50:14.974 'Cause that could be a really wonderful process for a student is to have their, their whiteboard, again, one of my favorite words, in front of them, and have the things that they're trying to make into, into-- Well, let's just say even a more complex answer. 00:50:14.974 --> 00:50:20.664 Maybe can I draw a

diagram that's gonna represent these four paragraphs on this page? 00:50:21.065 --> 00:50:32.699 And then do it on your whiteboard, clip a picture, put it in, and, um, move on I love a good collaboration between digital and analog. 00:50:34.891 --> 00:50:35.072 Very 00:50:35.378 --> 00:50:42.259 I have one more question I do wanna ask you, but, um, is it, is it just brainscape.com? 00:50:42.259 --> 00:50:44.159 Is that where we wanna send folks to go? 00:50:44.739 --> 00:50:49.659 Sure, brainscape.com or if you wanna go to the mobile app first, Brainscape on any of the app stores 00:50:50.297 --> 00:50:50.746 Awesome. 00:50:50.757 --> 00:51:00.547 Go play with it, y'all, and let me know how it goes, or send me pictures or screenshots of the cool flashcards that you or your students are making. 00:51:01.356 --> 00:51:11.617 Um, the last thing that I just wanna talk about,'cause you and I at ResearchEd sort of had a moment, uh, at the table when we were sitting together, where we were talking about that gap. 00:51:11.637 --> 00:51:17.317 Like, why is it so hard to get schools to want to improve student study skills? 00:51:17.806 --> 00:51:23.896 And, uh, you're-- I mean, we both are in such different worlds, and yet we're both experiencing that same issue. 00:51:23.907 --> 00:51:32.547 Like, a lot of the people who come to me are people who already work one-to-one with students, see the gap, and have time once a week for an hour a week to work with students on that gap. 00:51:32.577 --> 00:51:46.976 But it's hard to get teachers and administrators in schools to see that improving study skills actually helps students become more independent learners, and they can collaborate better with their teachers around the learning. 00:51:46.987 --> 00:51:48.456 At least that's my perspective. 00:51:48.797 --> 00:51:52.987 So what else do you wanna layer into this conundrum here? 00:51:53.465 --> 00:51:56.235 It's just nobody owns the problem, right? 00:51:56.235 --> 00:52:20.505 If you're a science teacher or an English teacher and you think you're a great instructor, and maybe you are, and you're, you're creating all the right exercises in class and you, and you deliver the, the information, your, your tests are really well aligned to what the material is, um, you have the right mix of, of knowledge and skills, all the things, um, it's not your job to make sure the students know how to study on their own, right? 00:52:20.505 --> 00:52:21.826 They should have learned it last year. 00:52:21.826 --> 00:52:22.266 They should have 00:52:22.329 --> 00:52:22.699 Mhm. 00:52:22.965 --> 00:52:28.786 in, homeroom or in elementary school or whatever, or their parents should have taught them, or the students can get together in a study group. 00:52:28.976 --> 00:52:30.565 It's just nobody owns the problem. 00:52:31.204 --> 00:52:31.635 Mm. 00:52:31.985 --> 00:52:42.996 and if you were to tell a, a teacher, you know,"We need to, we need to give your students better, better study skills," or, or even in Brainscape Sc- I mean, we often fight a, an uphill battle. 00:52:43.376 --> 00:52:56.215 You know,"We're gonna, we're gonna help your students do, uh, better on their independent studies." Uh, th- there's almost like a, like a threatening, like,"Are you saying that my instruction isn't good enough that my students can just go home and review what my 00:52:56.445 --> 00:52:57.344 Interesting. 00:52:57.695 --> 00:52:58.306 or what, what their 00:52:58.414 --> 00:52:59.144 Interesting. 00:52:59.425 --> 00:53:11.896 shouldn't that be enough, uh, for the test?" But you and I both know the students are gonna go home, and they're gonna reread their notes and, and reread what they highlighted and call it studying, and then, and then wonder why they're bombing their exams and not remembering anything a week later. 00:53:14.012 --> 00:53:19.713 Yeah, I think that's fascinating that it's really hard to see who's owning the problem there. 00:53:19.992 --> 00:53:29.523 It also makes me think the word study is kind of like the word review, and there are other words like it that we feel like have meaning, but actually have no meaning at all. 00:53:29.523 --> 00:53:31.262 What's the action behind studying? 00:53:31.262 --> 00:53:31.992 There are so many. 00:53:32.393 --> 00:53:42.233 And so I often say, like a parent can ask a kid,"Did you study?" And a teacher can say,"You need to study." And the student says,"I studied, I studied." But is anybody communicating anything? 00:53:42.242 --> 00:53:45.543 And nobody's taking responsibility for their part of that process. 00:53:45.833 --> 00:53:57.373 Yeah, and that, that's one, one of the things that, uh, is kind of our selling point for, for s- teachers and schools is that Brainscape actually shows you a dashboard of how much time each student 00:53:57.528 --> 00:53:57.909 உம் 00:53:58.213 --> 00:54:00.804 across how many different days and what their mastery is. 00:54:00.804 --> 00:54:17.153 So, uh, you know, they, they get a bad grade on the test, the, the parent comes in and yells at the teacher, says,"My kid studied." And I say,"Oh yeah, well let's look at this dashboard, and, uh, looks like Johnny only studied five minutes when I said, you know, 10, 10 minutes a day for the next two weeks." So, um, 00:54:17.179 --> 00:54:33.958 Which can be u- useful for coaches too, just to say if you're working on study habits with a student and want some data to put in their habit tracker that I also train folks how to use with students, uh, you, you get some concrete data that can be graphed and probably is graphed inside Brainscape. 00:54:35.358 --> 00:54:35.818 All right. 00:54:35.838 --> 00:54:37.028 Well, thank you, Andrew. 00:54:37.059 --> 00:54:38.949 This was such a fun conversation. 00:54:38.958 --> 00:54:41.798 Everyone, please go check out Brainscape, and I really meant it. 00:54:41.818 --> 00:54:54.719 Uh, people DM me on LinkedIn with pictures of things sometimes, and so I think if you do set up a, a Brainscrape-scape flashcard deck and think,"This was a really good question," I wanna see it, so send it to me on LinkedIn. 00:54:55.322 --> 00:54:55.501 Yeah, 00:54:55.559 --> 00:54:56.588 And then I'll forward it to you 00:54:56.672 --> 00:54:58.601 on our own profile and make you famous. 00:54:58.601 --> 00:54:59.362 You'll, you'll go viral 00:55:00.157 --> 00:55:00.717 There you go. 00:55:00.836 --> 00:55:01.327 Right. 00:55:01.336 --> 00:55:02.827 Viral on flashcards. 00:55:02.836 --> 00:55:03.257 Yes. 00:55:03.277 --> 00:55:04.347 May it be so. 00:55:05.626 --> 00:55:07.476 All right, take care everyone 00:55:08.034 --> 00:55:08.503 Thank you