התמלול המלא של The Collapse Engine: Jackrabbit Pollack

our current environment, despite where we think we may be going. 00:02:44.800 --> 00:02:48.319 I hope you enjoy this interview with Jack Rabbit Pollock. 00:02:50.080 --> 00:02:50.800 Hello, everybody. 00:02:50.879 --> 00:02:52.400 Welcome to the 10,000 year problem. 00:02:52.639 --> 00:02:59.599 I'm here today with Jack Rabbit Pollock, and we're going to talk about what happened 10,000 years ago up until now. 00:02:59.840 --> 00:03:00.400 What the hell happened? 00:03:00.639 --> 00:03:01.439 So, Jackson. 00:03:01.599 --> 00:03:02.000 Yes. 00:03:02.240 --> 00:03:06.960 We we met uh very organically on Substack, I think. 00:03:07.360 --> 00:03:28.000 Um, I think we read each other's writing and we know each other a little bit, and I'm really curious to sort of understand what's in what's going on in your head when you think about what humans used to be uh and what we are now, and so that we can sort of maybe do a better job about figuring out where we want to go. 00:03:28.319 --> 00:03:36.240 So if you can uh tell us just a little bit about sort of how you got into this space and how you started writing what you're writing on Substack, that'd be awesome. 00:03:36.639 --> 00:03:38.080 Well, I that's a great question. 00:03:38.240 --> 00:03:40.560 I thank you for not asking me for my credentials. 00:03:40.639 --> 00:03:42.000 That's that was awesome, Chris. 00:03:42.240 --> 00:03:49.120 Um, yeah, I woke up one morning and I thought, uh, why are we here? 00:03:49.280 --> 00:03:52.479 Uh and I was like, I want to know about the origin of life. 00:03:52.719 --> 00:03:54.159 That's really how this got started. 00:03:54.319 --> 00:03:58.800 And I was like, I started reading this book by this guy, Nick Lane, who is awesome. 00:03:58.960 --> 00:04:00.400 It's called The Vital Question. 00:04:00.719 --> 00:04:02.479 Definitely I would recommend it to everyone. 00:04:02.639 --> 00:04:10.639 It's really just kind of like he goes into the way that life started based, like he took an approach that was energy based. 00:04:10.719 --> 00:04:17.040 He was like, How where did the energy come from that would have generated life that could have generated life? 00:04:17.120 --> 00:04:18.319 It was really interesting. 00:04:18.560 --> 00:04:20.240 But that was just kind of like the start. 00:04:20.319 --> 00:04:23.199 I really literally woke up thinking, like, what is happening? 00:04:23.360 --> 00:04:29.040 And I realized and I found I started reading about the origin of the universe, and that was really cool. 00:04:29.199 --> 00:04:35.040 It was so cool like to find out that yes, we are actually made from stars, you know, like how awesome is that? 00:04:35.199 --> 00:04:41.600 Like there was like a supernova that blew up, and we wouldn't be here without like what the supernova generated. 00:04:41.680 --> 00:04:43.360 Like, that's just so cool, right? 00:04:43.759 --> 00:04:53.279 But then I then I started to um, you know, I started to get into like why why we're so messed up, you know, right? 00:04:53.360 --> 00:04:57.519 Like I started to have to I had to ask that question, like, what are we doing? 00:04:57.600 --> 00:04:59.040 Like, why are we so messed up? 00:04:59.199 --> 00:05:05.680 And eventually what I what I kind of iterated into was what I called a collapse engine. 00:05:05.759 --> 00:05:24.079 I'm calling it the collapse engine now, which is basically the way that our brains, our brain systems are arranged in such a way that we are we we are basically calibrated to make really bad decisions when considered in the context of the modern world. 00:05:24.240 --> 00:05:43.600 Like the modern world is is uh has been generated because of the the brain systems that organically grew through evolutionary processes and brought us into brought Homo sapiens into the Pleistocene, Pleostocene era, right? 00:05:44.399 --> 00:06:24.560 Um and so that's kind of where I'm going, where I've been going, which is you know, um, you know, um the brain systems are calibrated, they're set up for a small group of humans to work together in a particular natural environment as hunter-gatherers, and that our uh evolutionary fitness was improved by um uh by our ability to create tools and the way that we could learn from each other to make better tools, which improved our evolutionary fitness. 00:06:24.720 --> 00:06:33.199 And that was all a result of working together in groups, which was something that had been happening with hominids for millions of years. 00:06:33.439 --> 00:06:36.720 And we were evolving, you know, for tool use. 00:06:36.879 --> 00:06:42.560 We were evolving for, you know, these bigger brands that had the capacity to be able to learn and teach. 00:06:42.720 --> 00:06:54.720 This is something that I I took from um Joe uh Henrich, his uh secret of our success, really kind of lit me up a lot about like how how we got here. 00:06:55.120 --> 00:07:04.079 But basically the fundamental issue, the fundamental element of the collapse engine is our brain systems and the way that they mismatch, their mismatch. 00:07:04.560 --> 00:07:09.519 They're perfectly they work perfectly in our natural environment, right? 00:07:09.680 --> 00:07:15.360 Which is these small groups of hunter-gatherers out on in that natural environment, right? 00:07:15.439 --> 00:07:16.560 They work great for that. 00:07:16.879 --> 00:07:32.480 The problem is that we, because of our cultural advancements, right, there are our ability to innovate and create new tools, eventually what happened was we turned ourselves into an invasive species. 00:07:32.800 --> 00:07:38.240 And I write about that in the Substack post that is called What If Agent Smith was right. 00:07:38.800 --> 00:07:47.199 And uh that's really all about kind of like exploring this idea that human beings are an invasive species, an invasive species. 00:07:48.000 --> 00:07:51.519 Um and so I don't, I don't I don't know. 00:07:51.920 --> 00:07:54.240 Am I going too far afield or can I

continue? 00:07:54.319 --> 00:07:55.040 Like what do you think? 00:07:55.199 --> 00:07:56.079 No, no, no, please. 00:07:56.399 --> 00:08:03.920 And if you want, like you can remind people about that scene uh and what sort of led to that article uh before you get into the that's a good idea. 00:08:04.079 --> 00:08:12.240 So, like, so uh in The Matrix 1999 movie, I I would assume most people know about it, was so it was really a game changer. 00:08:12.480 --> 00:08:14.720 But uh if you haven't watched it, check it out. 00:08:14.879 --> 00:08:30.879 Uh, but Agent Smith, who is uh the kind of avatar of this uh global artificial intelligence that has taken over and basically dominated human beings and turned us into living batteries, whatever. 00:08:31.199 --> 00:08:52.080 But you know, as this artificial intelligence, he is having a conversation with one of the protagonists of the movie, and he is he's got he's got him, you know, he's he's captive, and you know, and Agent Smith is saying, look, you know, human beings are unlike any other creature because all they want to do is consume. 00:08:52.240 --> 00:08:54.720 No matter where they go, they consume and consume. 00:08:54.799 --> 00:08:58.000 There are virus, there are cancer on the planet. 00:08:58.399 --> 00:09:02.720 And, you know, that was not true. 00:09:02.879 --> 00:09:04.320 It was true and it wasn't true, right? 00:09:04.399 --> 00:09:08.240 Agent Smith was right because that is how human beings behave. 00:09:08.720 --> 00:09:20.000 From prehistoric times, we have actually invaded um ecosystems that we were not, we were not evolved to occupy. 00:09:20.159 --> 00:09:28.080 And when we enter into those novel, novel environments, we operate as if we are invasive, an invasive species. 00:09:28.159 --> 00:09:42.799 Because what happens with an invasive species is they are not restrained by negative feedback from their environment to prevent that prevents them from continuing to expand to you know to exponentially, right? 00:09:42.879 --> 00:10:03.120 And so um what is different about humans, we are like that, because like uh in my research I found out that the majority of living organisms would behave like an invasive species if you pick them up and put them into a novel environment. 00:10:03.600 --> 00:10:03.919 Okay. 00:10:05.200 --> 00:10:10.720 And but but the thing that's different about human beings is that we actively do that. 00:10:11.120 --> 00:10:14.159 We're we're trying to do that all the time. 00:10:14.320 --> 00:10:29.440 We're expanding and going into new environments where we can then exploit those environments, and we do that because we're able, we have because of our ability to innovate and and our tool use, right? 00:10:29.679 --> 00:10:42.799 We have a um we have set up a situation where the negative feedback from the environment that would constrain us naturally, okay, is we eliminate it from our environment. 00:10:42.960 --> 00:10:46.480 So, like uh, you know, we murder any predators. 00:10:46.639 --> 00:10:57.360 We don't, that's why you don't see any tigers, lions, or bears running around in your city, because we've killed every rival predator that we don't that we feel threatened by, right? 00:10:57.519 --> 00:11:07.600 And conversely, we also have turned all the plants, all the natural environment, we've calibrated it in such a way that it provides us with all the nutrition that we need. 00:11:07.679 --> 00:11:18.639 We're not limited by the environment's ability to uh provide calories to us because our innovations have made that negative feedback, right? 00:11:18.879 --> 00:11:27.039 Where, okay, well, once I over uh you know, if I overgraze and there's no grass left, then I can't survive. 00:11:27.279 --> 00:11:28.639 I'm gonna die off, right? 00:11:28.720 --> 00:11:31.279 That's what happens to like animals in the wild. 00:11:31.440 --> 00:11:36.240 If they over, if they overeat their environment, they die off. 00:11:36.399 --> 00:11:42.799 If there's, you know, too many predators, then they, you know, if there's not enough predators, then they expand. 00:11:43.840 --> 00:11:50.720 Human beings are unique in the fact that we actively remove the negative feedback from our environment. 00:11:50.879 --> 00:11:56.799 And what that does is that turns us into a global invasive species. 00:11:57.919 --> 00:12:01.279 Um and that's that's not good. 00:12:02.399 --> 00:12:02.879 Invasive. 00:12:03.440 --> 00:12:14.240 Well, it's interesting how it's interesting how you connect, you just connected the energetics um part of it to food sources, which is basically just energy flow. 00:12:14.320 --> 00:12:26.240 It's all and and I guess the uh a kind of a a follow-up question, you know, as part of the uh the collapse engine, as you'd call it, do you think we're aware of this? 00:12:26.399 --> 00:12:45.039 I mean, because there the the sort of the question that keeps coming in my mind is like, is this insidious or or is it just well, I almost want to say, like, did the hardware get in front of the software or or are these choices that we're making, are they true choices if we don't really know the choices that we're making? 00:12:45.279 --> 00:12:55.840 And yeah, no, thanks for thank you for asking me that question, Chris, because that you what you're doing is you're getting to the heart of the matter, and that's the mismatch of our brain, the structures in our brain. 00:12:56.159 --> 00:13:10.480 This is this is the key element of the collapse engine, which is that our um older the older older parts of our brain, okay, receive information. 00:13:10.559 --> 00:13:14.320 And this is there's data about this, there's there's science behind this. 00:13:14.559 --> 00:13:46.480 The older parts of our brain, so the brains that were tip the parts of our brain that were typically it used to be called the limbic system, okay, and the basal ganglia, stuff that it's all about controlling our uh uh fundamental bodily functions, okay,

like the auto, the uh automatic stuff, like our heart rates and our lungs and and all the rest, but also like our emotions, okay, our feelings, how we feel about things, how we how we uh we tag things, we relate to things, are they a threat? 00:13:46.639 --> 00:13:48.080 Are they a friend? 00:13:48.559 --> 00:13:59.039 Those parts of our brains are much older than our cortex, the part of our brains that are that we typically identify with, right? 00:13:59.200 --> 00:14:08.000 We think of we think that we are the narrative that our cortex tells us we are, because that's what the cortex does. 00:14:08.480 --> 00:14:17.919 What the cortex does is it receives this information and then it it coalesces a coherent description of what it sees. 00:14:18.480 --> 00:14:21.039 That's that's kind of the role that the cortex takes. 00:14:21.120 --> 00:14:35.279 There's it's a big, it's a big organ, there's a lot going on there, but ultimately to to just kind of like bring it to its its key point here, you know, it it it takes all this information and then it tells us a story. 00:14:35.440 --> 00:14:36.480 It's the storyteller. 00:14:36.879 --> 00:14:42.559 It is and is that just uh not to interrupt you, but is that sort of like what people refer to when they say the lizard brain? 00:14:42.720 --> 00:14:47.039 Or like is this like the our our ancestors would be operating more out of this? 00:14:47.600 --> 00:14:47.840 Right. 00:14:47.919 --> 00:14:52.240 So that you okay, so you can interrupt me anytime you want, totally fine. 00:14:52.559 --> 00:15:06.240 But but uh but you bring up a good point, which is this idea of lizard brain, like you know, that there is there's a just very quickly, there's this triune brain model, and I bring this up because it's important to understand the context. 00:15:06.399 --> 00:15:22.879 The triune brain model is a outdated way of looking at the way that the brain works, okay, because what it did was it kind of like took the different parts of the brain and separated them out and said, like, okay, well, this is your lizard brain and this is your mammal brain and this is your human brain, right? 00:15:22.960 --> 00:15:31.440 Where it was the cortex was like the human brain, and like the mammal brain was our limbic system, and then the basal ganglia was the lizard brain. 00:15:31.759 --> 00:15:35.120 You know, it that that is not it's it's helpful. 00:15:35.200 --> 00:15:42.960 I do think it's helpful in a sense that it kind of gives you a general idea of the way that these different brain systems operate, because it's true. 00:15:43.120 --> 00:15:53.279 I mean, like, you know, these older parts of your brain are concerned with emotions, uh, patterns of behavior, uh, social status, those kind of things, right? 00:15:53.440 --> 00:16:13.840 And your cortex, the the newer part of your brain that's about like just a couple million years old, a few million years old, like that part of your brain is the part of your brain that is rational, logical, can abstract, can you can create abstract ideas, can think about time, can plan ahead. 00:16:14.080 --> 00:16:18.000 These are things that the older parts of our brains do not really do. 00:16:18.159 --> 00:16:19.120 They don't do that. 00:16:19.279 --> 00:16:27.200 The older parts of our brains don't really think about, they don't think about time, they don't think ahead in the way that we can with our cortex, okay? 00:16:27.519 --> 00:16:33.919 And this mismatch is where I believe all of our problems were originate. 00:16:34.399 --> 00:16:41.440 Yeah, I do I really do, and I I think it is a physical, it's it's actually a physical issue that we have. 00:16:41.600 --> 00:16:44.799 It's an evolutionary mismatch that we have. 00:16:45.120 --> 00:16:50.639 It is only a mismatch because of what we've done with the world around us. 00:16:50.879 --> 00:16:51.200 Okay. 00:16:51.679 --> 00:16:54.159 In our natural environment, it's not a mismatch. 00:16:54.240 --> 00:16:55.840 It works perfectly. 00:16:56.159 --> 00:16:58.399 Because think about it for a second, right? 00:16:58.559 --> 00:17:09.680 You got you have like your emotional brain, the older part of your brain that I call the visceral core, and that kind of includes all the older parts of the brain that's been around for hundreds of millions of years. 00:17:10.240 --> 00:17:24.079 That part of your brain is absolutely appropriately set up to deal with the natural environment where you don't, you're you're you have to know right away what is happening around you, and you need to immediately respond to it. 00:17:24.240 --> 00:17:32.720 So if you have a predator that's there in the bushes, you have to, you when you hear it, you have to see it, you have to respond right away. 00:17:32.960 --> 00:17:34.960 Because if you don't, you could die. 00:17:35.200 --> 00:17:36.400 You will die, right? 00:17:36.559 --> 00:17:37.440 Or you could die. 00:17:37.680 --> 00:17:42.880 And so that that part of your brain is like, I see a threat, I respond to the threat. 00:17:43.039 --> 00:17:48.240 I see a threat, I respond, I see something that I want, I need, I'm gonna respond to the thing I want or need. 00:17:48.480 --> 00:17:50.640 Meanwhile, you have this cortex. 00:17:50.799 --> 00:17:56.720 The cortex takes a lot more time to process and to work with the information it gets. 00:17:56.880 --> 00:18:00.960 Now, here's the thing that I recently found out that I find crazy. 00:18:02.480 --> 00:18:10.079 Your cortex, the again, the part of your brain that we identify with, we think this narrative that we're telling ourselves is who we are. 00:18:10.240 --> 00:18:12.000 It is the way that the world is. 00:18:12.240 --> 00:18:20.640 But here's the thing that information that your cortex is processing gets to the older part of your brain first. 00:18:20.720 --> 00:18:29.519 And that older part of your brain, Chris, tags the information before it gets to your cortex. 00:18:29.920 --> 00:18:39.519

Your cortex, your cortex is dealing not just with the information of the world around you and processing that world, the sensory input, what you're seeing, what you're smelling, what you're hearing. 00:18:39.759 --> 00:18:47.200 It's also dealing with, it's processing information from the older part of your brain, the visceral core. 00:18:47.279 --> 00:18:49.839 So the visceral visceral core is tagging things. 00:18:50.000 --> 00:18:55.920 This is this is other, this is a threat, this is a good thing, this is a bad thing, you know. 00:18:56.079 --> 00:19:02.640 Um, your body is doing stuff, you're getting tingles on your skin, your your heart is racing. 00:19:02.799 --> 00:19:08.079 All that information also is coming to your cortex. 00:19:08.319 --> 00:19:19.119 So your cortex is never dealing with raw information and processing raw information, it's processing all that other stuff that's coming from the brain. 00:19:19.359 --> 00:19:20.640 And there's a back and forth. 00:19:20.799 --> 00:19:21.920 There is a back and forth, right? 00:19:22.240 --> 00:19:23.519 And this is an important part. 00:19:23.599 --> 00:19:31.680 And I'm not really going to get into this right now, but that key, that is the key mismatch that I believe is the collapse engine. 00:19:31.920 --> 00:19:34.880 Now, I I have to stop and say, does that make sense to you? 00:19:35.039 --> 00:19:35.839 Do you follow that? 00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:37.279 How does that sound? 00:19:37.759 --> 00:19:39.440 No, I I think so. 00:19:39.599 --> 00:19:51.359 I mean, I feel like I and I appreciate what you're telling me about the outdatedness of our brains, because I hear a lot about that, but I'm not well versed in sort of understanding the most recent thinking of how our brains work. 00:19:51.440 --> 00:20:06.720 Um, but it still sounds to me like there's kind of two important or maybe more, but at least two important sections of our brain that are communicating in some way, but I'm still a little um confused about what the mismatch is. 00:20:06.880 --> 00:20:13.759 Is it because we only process a certain amount of the information or because we're not aware of that processing? 00:20:14.160 --> 00:20:17.440 So maybe a little bit more about that just to help me get well. 00:20:20.319 --> 00:20:20.640 Okay. 00:20:20.960 --> 00:20:31.920 This is why it's it's a mismatch, and I have to kind of expand a little bit more um and to contextualize it because it is again, it's the context that makes it a mismatch. 00:20:32.079 --> 00:20:44.240 Because again, when we're out in in what would have been our natural environment, which is which you know, I that I don't have to get into that pre-historic kind of pre-civilization environment, that's different. 00:20:44.400 --> 00:20:44.640 Okay. 00:20:45.200 --> 00:21:08.880 It's a mismatch because we have created an incredibly complex system of interdependence that our visceral core, so the older parts of our brain are not evolved to be able to manage, handle, or understand. 00:21:09.359 --> 00:21:09.599 Yeah. 00:21:09.759 --> 00:21:10.000 Okay. 00:21:10.720 --> 00:21:19.759 And and so it's uh it's more the mismatch is really kind of between the modern world we've created and the the way that our brain evolved to work. 00:21:19.839 --> 00:21:20.400 Yes. 00:21:20.720 --> 00:21:22.720 Not a mismatch in our our brain. 00:21:23.039 --> 00:21:30.160 I mean, there is uh there is a right, it's like maybe the internal the internal dynamics are not mismatched. 00:21:30.400 --> 00:21:34.720 That the internal dynamics are kind of they're working the way that they're supposed to. 00:21:35.279 --> 00:21:37.279 In a in a context, in an older right, it's fine. 00:21:37.440 --> 00:21:38.319 And that's you're right. 00:21:38.400 --> 00:21:40.400 Absolutely good, that's a great distinction. 00:21:40.640 --> 00:21:43.039 It's the well, no, it's me just taking a minute to get there. 00:21:43.279 --> 00:21:51.839 Well, yeah, but then the the the mismatch really is about what we're expecting from our brains in the modern environment. 00:21:52.319 --> 00:21:54.240 That's where the mismatch comes in, right? 00:21:54.319 --> 00:21:55.440 That's where the mismatch comes in. 00:21:55.519 --> 00:21:59.519 And I want to use climate change as the key example. 00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:00.319 Okay. 00:22:00.559 --> 00:22:01.279 It's awesome. 00:22:01.599 --> 00:22:12.160 When growing up, okay, I was overwhelmed by what I saw as a willful ignorance, a dismissal of the importance of climate change. 00:22:12.319 --> 00:22:12.640 Okay. 00:22:12.799 --> 00:22:25.920 This was like, you know, starting from the 1980s, you know, it just it was I was it was outrageous that something as consequential as what we were doing to the environment and what was happening to the environment was appeared to be ignored. 00:22:26.000 --> 00:22:31.279 Not only that, that ignorance continued our entire lives, right? 00:22:32.160 --> 00:22:32.880 It's gotten worse. 00:22:33.200 --> 00:22:33.839 It's gotten worse. 00:22:34.000 --> 00:22:37.920 I just finished reading uh you know William Catton's overshoot book. 00:22:38.240 --> 00:22:43.839 He wrote that in the early 80s, you know, and he and back then he was warning, look, we're it's too much. 00:22:43.920 --> 00:22:44.720 We can't do this. 00:22:44.880 --> 00:22:45.599 This doesn't work. 00:22:45.680 --> 00:22:47.359 And he just, you know, put the numbers out there. 00:22:47.440 --> 00:22:48.000 It's brilliant. 00:22:48.079 --> 00:22:48.480 I love it. 00:22:48.559 --> 00:22:50.000 Everybody should read it. 00:22:50.480 --> 00:22:52.240 But this is the mismatch. 00:22:52.400 --> 00:22:55.119 The mismatch, let's take a look at climate change. 00:22:55.359 --> 00:23:04.720 So you have somebody who is, let's say, uh an executive, a CEO of a fossil fuel uh energy uh company. 00:23:04.960 --> 00:23:05.279 Okay. 00:23:05.920 --> 00:23:09.279 They are aware of the harm. 00:23:09.440 --> 00:23:10.400 They know

it. 00:23:10.640 --> 00:23:18.400 They did studies in the 70s that showed them that climate change was real and the consequences, and they continue to do it anyway. 00:23:18.559 --> 00:23:37.920 And this really gets to the heart of what the mismatch is about, which is your older, the older parts of your brain do not the older parts of your brain are the parts that actually move you, they are the ones that motivate you, literally. 00:23:38.319 --> 00:23:51.519 They are the parts of your brain that signal, I'm going to wave my hand, you know, I'm going to hug my loved one, you know, I'm going to like throw a punch at a person who I consider to be a threat. 00:23:51.680 --> 00:23:53.279 That is your older brain. 00:23:53.440 --> 00:23:55.359 That is not your cortex. 00:23:55.440 --> 00:24:04.720 Your cortex can recognize these things, understand these things, okay, but your cortex doesn't feel it doesn't generate emotions. 00:24:05.119 --> 00:24:12.160 Your cortex, yes, there is a back and forth, but importantly, your cortex does not generate the emotions. 00:24:12.240 --> 00:24:21.119 It's your visceral core that generates the emotions and actually the drives, oh, I'm hungry, you know, I'm I'm hungry, I'm thirsty, I'm turned on. 00:24:21.279 --> 00:24:23.359 You know, that's your visceral core. 00:24:23.519 --> 00:24:23.839 Okay. 00:24:24.720 --> 00:24:28.799 And that stuff that's right in front of you is what your visceral core deals with. 00:24:28.960 --> 00:24:38.640 Your visceral core does not understand a hundred years from now, there's not going to be any, there is there is going to be no more uh species. 00:24:38.799 --> 00:24:42.799 We've we've extinguished all these species because of our actions. 00:24:43.359 --> 00:24:46.799 Your visceral core does not understand that timescale. 00:24:46.960 --> 00:24:49.279 It doesn't work that way, literally. 00:24:49.519 --> 00:24:49.839 Okay. 00:24:51.119 --> 00:25:09.519 The only way that that kind of that kind of thinking can work is if your cortex generates an an image that it then sends to our visceral core to try and get the visceral core to be motivated to take action. 00:25:09.920 --> 00:25:10.240 Okay. 00:25:11.839 --> 00:25:13.279 Now here's the thing. 00:25:13.599 --> 00:25:16.000 For that, let's go back to that climate executive. 00:25:16.079 --> 00:25:16.400 Okay. 00:25:16.559 --> 00:25:22.720 That climate executive thinks about billions of people who are going to suffer terribly. 00:25:23.039 --> 00:25:32.480 He thinks about like the billion, you know, the millions and billions of species that are being eliminated that took millions and millions of years to evolve. 00:25:32.720 --> 00:25:48.480 He's thinking about that, but that that thinking is overwhelmed by the visceral core, that that guy's visceral core that says, I'm getting money, I'm getting status, right? 00:25:49.119 --> 00:25:53.759 I'm I am I am I am satisfying these drives. 00:25:54.000 --> 00:26:06.000 The dopamine is flooding through my head when I think about what I'm going to make the next quarter, how the praise I will get from my board of directors, right? 00:26:06.640 --> 00:26:19.359 That is what that is what literally is being fired in that person's brain, versus okay, the abstract concepts of billions of people. 00:26:19.519 --> 00:26:22.480 Your visceral core doesn't know from billions. 00:26:23.119 --> 00:26:24.400 Doesn't know from billions. 00:26:24.960 --> 00:26:33.440 Abstractions like that, abstractions like time are not something that your visceral core can relate to. 00:26:34.000 --> 00:26:34.319 Okay. 00:26:35.359 --> 00:26:45.279 And so this this that's why I say there's a mismatch because we live in a complex world that has built itself up to be abstract. 00:26:46.319 --> 00:26:49.200 To be to be so far removed. 00:26:49.440 --> 00:27:08.160 Like what you need to do to satisfy your visceral core, okay, like I need to get shelter, food, clothes, you know, cultural, uh, you know, cultural position, all that stuff has to be satisfied by abstractions. 00:27:08.400 --> 00:27:09.759 We're fucked. 00:27:10.640 --> 00:27:11.039 Wow. 00:27:11.279 --> 00:27:12.160 Dude, I get it. 00:27:12.240 --> 00:27:19.200 I like I I I I see what it's exactly what I wanted to get out of you because now I think I understand it a little bit more. 00:27:19.279 --> 00:27:27.200 And it makes me wonder um the the abstractions of modernity. 00:27:27.359 --> 00:27:28.400 Yes, I get it. 00:27:28.480 --> 00:27:33.920 We our brains, that part of our brain isn't satisfied because it can't wrap its head around. 00:27:34.079 --> 00:27:42.799 And so I guess that means in the past, the things in front of us that made us less selfish. 00:27:42.960 --> 00:27:49.599 I mean, your CEO example is so great because it's like it's the same needs that need to be met. 00:27:49.839 --> 00:28:02.559 It's just we because we can't see the abstractions as meeting those needs, we look for the more benign the money or whatever, the these more easily definable things. 00:28:02.960 --> 00:28:16.079 But in the past, I you know, I think, and there's a lot of data, I guess, that's say we were more cooperative and more less I mean, I don't I don't I I don't like the word egalitarian, but sort of more egalitarian. 00:28:16.160 --> 00:28:34.400 And it's so the first thing I think as I as I start to peer into your wisdom a little bit is what's the difference between an abstraction like well, I want my buddy to be happy too, and an abstraction like time or space. 00:28:34.559 --> 00:28:44.480 I mean, maybe it is time or space, because I've often said humans suck at understanding time beyond like a human lifetime or space beyond like whatever you're doing. 00:28:45.359 --> 00:28:46.000 We are bad at that. 00:28:46.480 --> 00:28:47.200 We are bad at that. 00:28:49.119 --> 00:28:51.039 And you just explain and you just explain why. 00:28:51.200 --> 00:28:55.920 I mean, that's the first, that's the first thing

at time where I've like, oh, like light bulb moment went off. 00:28:56.000 --> 00:28:57.920 Like it's that mismatch. 00:28:58.640 --> 00:29:20.400 And and so it's sort of like I guess it I'm looking for like a what we might have been like in the past, what that mismatch, you know, what what the I'm struggling to get there, what the um the the abstractions that we can understand look like, and what is unique about these new abstractions that we just can't quite make meet our needs. 00:29:20.480 --> 00:29:21.359 And can we do that? 00:29:21.519 --> 00:29:27.200 Well, let's like so I have um I have these three consequences, right? 00:29:27.279 --> 00:29:37.519 Or or or three elements of the natural world that where where these brain systems were not mismatched. 00:29:38.240 --> 00:29:38.960 Okay, perfect. 00:29:39.279 --> 00:29:44.480 Localization, attribution, and unavoidability. 00:29:44.640 --> 00:29:44.960 Okay. 00:29:45.279 --> 00:29:48.240 Localization, attribution, and unavoidability. 00:29:48.640 --> 00:29:49.200 Why? 00:29:49.440 --> 00:29:54.640 Okay, because what I do, what I've been doing is I've been thinking about like how did we get here, right? 00:29:54.720 --> 00:29:58.480 Because this is I feel I feel like this is the fun, this is like the original sin. 00:29:59.359 --> 00:30:04.319 And I don't really don't take that, don't take that as a religious statement. 00:30:04.559 --> 00:30:17.359 But the original sin of our modern world is that you know, we just we think that we just like drew we we uh you know we were uh oh my god, I suck so hard. 00:30:17.680 --> 00:30:25.279 Like the what's what's the what's the um the story where like you were born on third base and you think he hit a triple, you know? 00:30:25.599 --> 00:30:26.319 Oh yeah, yeah. 00:30:26.400 --> 00:30:27.519 Like born, well, I think that's it. 00:30:27.920 --> 00:30:28.480 Born with a space. 00:30:28.640 --> 00:30:33.039 Yeah, and you know, and it's like uh, you know, that's our that's our original sin. 00:30:33.119 --> 00:30:38.960 Where we just we're just like, okay, well, because I grew up, I normalized this this world, and that's all there is. 00:30:39.039 --> 00:30:46.079 And it's like, no, it's like we came here, this all evolved, it evolved culturally, it evolved biologically. 00:30:46.240 --> 00:30:48.160 There's a reason that we got here. 00:30:48.240 --> 00:30:50.799 And so I'm just like, what is that reason? 00:30:51.039 --> 00:30:53.359 What was the pathway, right? 00:30:53.519 --> 00:31:08.880 Instead of instead of thinking, like, you know, I feel like maybe part of the problem is that we have this, like, this religion that has told us that there's like a kind of like an invisible hand that's kind of like manipulating all this, and so somehow we're just like, oh, well, there's a reason. 00:31:09.039 --> 00:31:11.359 No, there's not a fucking reason, man. 00:31:11.680 --> 00:31:17.599 It's like like this thing fell on that thing and the other thing fell on

the other thing, and then like somebody had a thing, you know. 00:31:17.680 --> 00:31:20.000 It's like, what am I gonna do with that thing? 00:31:20.319 --> 00:31:21.279 Like, I'm sorry. 00:31:21.359 --> 00:31:29.920 That's kind of it's not, it's I you know, the the word that I heard the other day was accretion, and I was like, oh shit, like that's it. 00:31:30.079 --> 00:31:33.519 We're we're accreted, you know, we're just accreted. 00:31:33.680 --> 00:31:38.640 We like to like, oh wow, I have culture and I'm so like and I can move and I can dance and I can do stuff. 00:31:38.720 --> 00:31:47.920 It's like, no, you accre we're accreted, we're accredited, like something something fell on top of another thing, fell on top of another thing, and then it like woke up and said, Hey, this is great. 00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:49.200 You know, that's what we are. 00:31:49.680 --> 00:31:50.720 Oh my god. 00:31:50.960 --> 00:31:54.000 But uh, I'm so there's a lot of I know, I know. 00:31:54.079 --> 00:31:54.799 I'm so sorry. 00:31:54.880 --> 00:31:55.839 I'm so sorry. 00:31:56.240 --> 00:31:56.880 Let me go back. 00:31:56.960 --> 00:31:57.440 Let me go back. 00:31:57.519 --> 00:32:08.240 So I want to go back, and that that was all that was all to the end of me saying, Yeah, well, I looked, I wanted to look back at Homo sapiens, where we started from and how we got here, right? 00:32:08.319 --> 00:32:18.319 And so it was like, okay, we we were hominids, we had been hominids that have been working together in small groups for millions of years. 00:32:18.480 --> 00:32:28.079 So over those millions of years, we've got this larger part of our brain, our cortex, which is which is growing and forming until it gets to be a Homo sapien. 00:32:28.240 --> 00:32:37.920 And it was it and that and it was growing and forming because you know you had these small, these small tribes of hominids that were working together in these small groups, okay? 00:32:38.160 --> 00:32:41.039 They were hunting and gathering, they were doing their thing, right? 00:32:41.279 --> 00:32:49.759 And they were surviving because they lived together and worked together intimately. 00:32:50.000 --> 00:32:52.720 I want you to, I want you to, oh, this is the thing, right, Chris? 00:32:52.880 --> 00:32:54.240 You like the book Shaman. 00:32:54.400 --> 00:32:56.240 I love the book Shaman too, right? 00:32:56.640 --> 00:32:57.039 Why? 00:32:57.200 --> 00:33:06.720 Because it got me thinking about the fact that you and I are no different biologically from those hominids that popped out as Homo sapiens. 00:33:07.039 --> 00:33:08.559 We we're the same, right? 00:33:08.799 --> 00:33:10.319 So what changed? 00:33:10.960 --> 00:33:13.279 Well, I I don't want to get there yet. 00:33:13.440 --> 00:33:14.880 Sorry, I jumped ahead. 00:33:15.759 --> 00:33:21.920 But but you know, like so we have these we have these small groups where we're working in, okay? 00:33:22.000 --> 00:33:28.079 Like, and these are people we're around them all the time, every single day. 00:33:28.400 --> 00:33:38.000 Imagine being in a small group of like 20 to 20 to 50 people, not even that large, probably, because the the the larger part is probably bands that were nearby, right? 00:33:38.079 --> 00:33:44.960 So you have a small group of people, maybe let's say 20, and you know them from the time you're fucking born. 00:33:45.119 --> 00:33:47.359 You know these people, you know everything about them. 00:33:47.519 --> 00:33:51.119 You see them have sex, they probably have sex in front of you. 00:33:51.440 --> 00:33:53.759 You know, you're having sex with them. 00:33:53.920 --> 00:33:57.200 It's like, you know, they're there, you know, are you clothed? 00:33:57.359 --> 00:33:58.240 I mean, probably not. 00:33:58.400 --> 00:34:00.160 I don't know why you would be, right? 00:34:00.319 --> 00:34:12.960 You know, and you're eating, you're your survivor, your your literal survival, your literal survival is dependent on working together in this group with these people that you are intimately connected with. 00:34:13.119 --> 00:34:16.719 Of course, our brains got really big because why? 00:34:16.960 --> 00:34:27.280 Because the culture that arises from those individual nodes of of perspective of of minds, okay, needed to interact. 00:34:27.360 --> 00:34:34.719 They needed, and so those interactions must have been very complex, they might they were intimate relationships, right? 00:34:36.400 --> 00:34:43.519 An important part of that, this is where, and this is where localization, attribution, and unavoidability come in. 00:34:44.480 --> 00:34:55.119 Because why everybody knew intimately knew that they were working together, they had to work together for their survival, for their survival. 00:34:55.280 --> 00:34:58.159 This wasn't optional, this wasn't like a nice to have. 00:34:58.639 --> 00:35:02.639 It was like it was a this was their survival, okay, those bands. 00:35:03.519 --> 00:35:10.320 And if somebody acted in a selfish way or a way that put them at risk, they could see that. 00:35:10.480 --> 00:35:14.159 They saw that happening literally because they could literally see it. 00:35:14.559 --> 00:35:18.079 You know, you were not you were not getting that far away from each other. 00:35:18.559 --> 00:35:21.440 So like they it was they were there, they were right there. 00:35:21.519 --> 00:35:23.039 You could see what was going on. 00:35:23.199 --> 00:35:25.119 Why do you why did you hoard that? 00:35:25.360 --> 00:35:27.039 Why aren't you sharing that? 00:35:27.599 --> 00:35:31.440 Well, that's and again, and what's the other attribution? 00:35:31.920 --> 00:35:44.400 So, first of all, because you're new you're close to a person, you can see what they're doing, and you can attribute it's not ambiguous, it's not abstract, it's not up for it's not up for question. 00:35:44.559 --> 00:35:45.760 I saw you steal that thing. 00:35:45.840 --> 00:35:47.039 What are you talking about?

00:35:48.079 --> 00:35:48.719 Yeah. 00:35:49.840 --> 00:35:50.320 Right. 00:35:50.639 --> 00:35:52.480 It's so it's attributable, okay? 00:35:52.639 --> 00:35:54.960 And then you have the lack of of avoidability. 00:35:55.039 --> 00:35:55.920 You can't get away from it. 00:35:56.239 --> 00:35:59.760 It's like, well, like what I I can't let you get away with this. 00:35:59.920 --> 00:36:03.519 Because if you get away with this now, you're putting us at risk. 00:36:04.000 --> 00:36:10.000 You need you need to know that you either stop this shit or you're gonna get you're gonna get excommunicated, you're out. 00:36:10.400 --> 00:36:13.599 And back then, that meant you were probably gonna die. 00:36:14.239 --> 00:36:14.880 Right? 00:36:15.199 --> 00:36:21.840 And so people had a really, really high incentive to want to conform to that, right? 00:36:21.920 --> 00:36:25.760 So the idea, so this is this is my kind of like concession to you. 00:36:26.000 --> 00:36:29.519 You don't even have to worry about thinking of it as egalitarianism. 00:36:29.760 --> 00:36:30.800 You know, this is the thing. 00:36:31.039 --> 00:36:34.159 People who are anti-egalitarian call themselves realists. 00:36:34.320 --> 00:36:36.000 No, they're just assholes. 00:36:37.920 --> 00:36:56.079 The realism, the realism is that for like hundreds of millions of years, more than likely, definitely at least a hundred million, 150 million years, human beings were egalitarian by nature because they had to be. 00:36:56.480 --> 00:37:04.000 That was something that not only was culturally bred into us, but it was also evolutionarily uh bred into us. 00:37:04.079 --> 00:37:30.639 I want to go back to Hein uh Henrich and his book A secret or A Secret or The Secret of Our Success, where he really kind of digs into that and he really points out human beings are what what he considers to be our real specialness, or what makes us so unique is the fact that we can teach and learn, that we can pass on information from generation to generation in a way that essentially hacks evolution. 00:37:30.880 --> 00:37:32.239 That's what that is. 00:37:32.639 --> 00:37:49.679 If you're if you're if you're in the natural world and you are an animal that finds a particularly advantageous strategy, okay, that will be passed on through your genes because that's that's a tendency like that you have accreted. 00:37:49.760 --> 00:37:51.039 It's just fallen on. 00:37:51.440 --> 00:37:51.760 Okay. 00:37:53.039 --> 00:38:12.320 But what what what the human, what the human innovation, like the human uniqueness really was was that it was that we were able to actually do a an end around where we could like pass on these innovations, these changes, these updates without having to wait tens of thousands of years, hundreds of thousands of years, you know. 00:38:13.679 --> 00:38:16.239 Man, yeah, I I couldn't agree more. 00:38:16.320 --> 00:38:21.119 And you uh just sort of laid it out much more eloquently than I had it in my

head. 00:38:21.199 --> 00:38:21.840 I appreciate that. 00:38:22.000 --> 00:38:22.719 You've thank you. 00:38:22.960 --> 00:38:25.679 You've helped me work through a couple of things that I they're great. 00:38:25.760 --> 00:38:26.880 I I wait, yeah. 00:38:27.039 --> 00:38:42.719 Um, but it's it what makes me think of is natural selection, of course, because I've always speculated that cooperation and living in groups like that occurred because that's what worked, because that's how natural selection works. 00:38:42.960 --> 00:38:49.760 The groups that were doing that had a higher probability of survivorship and passed their genes on it all. 00:38:50.400 --> 00:39:03.920 And so certainly what we see out there in the world, of course, we can't see it, but we you know, most of the evidence suggests that these bands were beneficial and that living in a group is prefer prefer preferable to living singularly. 00:39:04.239 --> 00:39:11.440 But it it brings me back to that same question of um of intent, you know. 00:39:12.079 --> 00:39:14.960 And you you you mentioned this, I can't remember how you said it. 00:39:15.119 --> 00:39:17.280 We oh, you said we hacked evolution. 00:39:17.440 --> 00:39:32.320 So it's I have this sort of idea that natural selection became a non-natural selective force when we um with the onset of tools and technology, and this is a classic argument. 00:39:32.480 --> 00:39:42.239 It's like it's natural, I'm a natural humans are natural, so if I want to extract all of the oil from the planet and burn it off in one big giant party, then that's natural, right? 00:39:42.480 --> 00:39:44.239 Some people will argue that that's the way it is. 00:39:44.480 --> 00:39:51.360 Beavers making dams is is natural, but it it fucks up an ecosystem, you know, arguably. 00:39:51.519 --> 00:39:56.880 Uh so it's like, are we intentional did are we were we aware of this? 00:39:57.199 --> 00:40:08.800 You know, were we aware because it almost sounds like that's what you're suggesting, that we might have been aware that we were hacking evolution and artificially selecting the evolution. 00:40:08.960 --> 00:40:09.280 Yeah, right. 00:40:09.360 --> 00:40:11.119 No, and again versus the LCD. 00:40:11.360 --> 00:40:13.360 No, thanks for calling thanks for calling me on that. 00:40:13.440 --> 00:40:23.920 You know, I'm not calling it no no no, because I tend to I tend to uh go for the low-hanging fruit and the kind of like the the phrase on the movie poster, you know. 00:40:24.079 --> 00:40:30.239 So like, you know, hacking evolution, you know, that sounds like you know, that sounds like a superhero power, you know. 00:40:30.320 --> 00:40:32.880 So I kind of well that makes you that's what makes you a good writer. 00:40:33.119 --> 00:40:36.400 Well, no, because uh well and I only say that because I've thought about that. 00:40:36.480 --> 00:40:41.440 And I, you know, and I think natural selection isn't we're not aware of it happening. 00:40:41.599 --> 00:40:55.039 And and and in truth, to go back to something where you mentioned before, it's like I feel like Descartes got a little bit before the horse with this complex, more modern, um, nuanced thinking ability. 00:40:56.000 --> 00:40:58.079 We don't, we still haven't mastered that, right? 00:40:58.159 --> 00:41:06.880 We still haven't figured out how to fit that into modernity because it still fits into this old system, right? 00:41:07.360 --> 00:41:18.559 Uh being the system, the the extrinsic, the external environment has changed and we didn't change with it, or or we didn't figure out how to work in that environment. 00:41:18.800 --> 00:41:29.360 So I I guess maybe thoughts on the non-natural part, because why didn't, for example, we keep up with the evolution of modernity? 00:41:29.519 --> 00:41:36.719 You know, was it because modernity is non-natural forces that we imposed on the world that shouldn't be there? 00:41:36.880 --> 00:41:38.079 Like such an important question. 00:41:39.679 --> 00:41:41.280 Well, I mean, what yeah, what are your thoughts on that? 00:41:41.440 --> 00:41:42.400 That's a really important question. 00:41:42.639 --> 00:41:43.199 Why the ministry? 00:41:43.599 --> 00:41:44.400 Absolutely, absolutely. 00:41:44.639 --> 00:41:52.800 No, it's uh it's it's really an important question because I think that it really gets to the heart of you know what what can we do, right? 00:41:52.960 --> 00:41:53.599 What can we do? 00:41:53.760 --> 00:41:55.840 Who are we and what can we do? 00:41:56.159 --> 00:42:17.119 Because, you know, um and it also it also kind of harkens back to the the was Agent Smith right article because you know um it's also it's I mean it's also kind of sad, Chris, honestly. 00:42:17.199 --> 00:42:38.960 Uh you know, when I when I start to really kind of dig into this, it gets really sad because the idea of what it is or isn't natural, you know, and when you look at the world we are living in today, like there is this almost like a noble savage that we want to that we want to kind of like cling on to. 00:42:39.360 --> 00:43:03.519 Um and I I talk about the noble savage in that article and our myth mythologizing of that pre-civilizational uh human where you know we want to kind of believe that like, oh yeah, you know, human beings, man, they used to be just like in touch with nature and they were totally vibing, you know, with the plants and the animals, and it's like we never hurt each other. 00:43:03.840 --> 00:43:05.199 No, that's not how it was. 00:43:05.519 --> 00:43:15.280 Sorry, I hate to break it to you, but yeah, no, Chaka from uh land of the lost well didn't it didn't happen that way, right? 00:43:15.440 --> 00:43:32.639 So um, you know, one of the one of the sad things that I found out about when I was like digging into the to the to the archaeological history, the uh the the ancient history stuff is that like you know, human beings before civilization would extinct you know whole animal

populations, of course. 00:43:32.719 --> 00:43:36.000 They you know they would come they would come into a new environment. 00:43:36.159 --> 00:43:43.760 Australia is a great example, or um, and they would just like murder like all these animals and they disappeared. 00:43:43.920 --> 00:43:47.920 And there's like, you know, there's there's arguments that, oh, it wasn't all human beings. 00:43:48.000 --> 00:43:59.760 It's like, look, bro, you know, yeah, maybe in specific instances there's ambiguous evidence, but when you take it as a whole, you cannot argue the fact when human beings showed up. 00:44:00.800 --> 00:44:02.239 Animals went extinct. 00:44:02.400 --> 00:44:04.000 Like that's just a fact. 00:44:04.320 --> 00:44:14.960 And you know, I think that the the the overarching kind of uh I just think that it tells a story that's very that's very clear if we're willing to accept it. 00:44:15.039 --> 00:44:27.519 And I think that when you look at the way that we operate today in this world, and especially with my collapse engine idea, it seems pretty clear to me that, like, yeah, sorry, that that this idea of a noble savage just doesn't exist. 00:44:27.599 --> 00:44:28.800 But what does that mean, Chris? 00:44:28.960 --> 00:44:34.559 Going back to your question about natural, not natural, what it means is that this is natural. 00:44:34.880 --> 00:44:36.079 This is natural. 00:44:36.320 --> 00:44:38.480 This is this is an accretion. 00:44:38.880 --> 00:44:41.360 This is just stuff falling on top of each other. 00:44:41.519 --> 00:44:45.360 And then like we call it a thing because that's what our brains do. 00:44:45.519 --> 00:44:49.360 Our cortex calls a thing something because that's what it does. 00:44:49.599 --> 00:44:51.360 But it's yeah, what difference does it make? 00:44:51.679 --> 00:45:00.559 Yeah, yeah, you know, and it's like so it's like we are natural and and we're naturally murdering the planet, is what we're doing. 00:45:00.719 --> 00:45:19.519 You know, we're we're murdering the the environment that we were born into um because that is the way that we're that's how we are using our naturally evolved biology, you know, and the culture that we created out of that, it is what it is. 00:45:19.679 --> 00:45:23.760 Like, I don't know what it was that happened that created the agricultural revolution. 00:45:23.920 --> 00:45:36.000 I don't know what was that particular, that one moment in time where a group or band went from horticulture to agriculture, where they were just like, we're gonna stay right here. 00:45:36.159 --> 00:45:37.199 I don't know what happened. 00:45:37.360 --> 00:45:37.840 Why? 00:45:38.079 --> 00:45:39.039 Because that was it. 00:45:39.199 --> 00:45:42.800 That was when it ended, that was when everything started to really go downhill. 00:45:42.880 --> 00:45:45.119 I uh that's that's my that's my theory. 00:45:45.679 --> 00:46:08.239 Well, no, I think I think you know, since you mentioned that, I think people are generally in agreement that that shift, however it happened, because you know, Graeber and Wingro talk a lot about how there were probably hundreds, maybe hundreds of thousands of years where we were going in and out of nomadic and agrarian sort of behavior, but at some point there was a lootable surplus. 00:46:08.400 --> 00:46:12.639 I think Luke Kemp, uh the guy who wrote a book, make coined that term. 00:46:12.880 --> 00:46:25.760 You know, once we had a surplus, not only not only fueled our brains to go through the process you were just talking about with language and you know culture, uh just exponentially, um, but also power. 00:46:25.920 --> 00:46:26.159 Right. 00:46:26.239 --> 00:46:42.639 Once there was lootable wealth wealth, there was some way of like if you could hoard it, then that created a structure that I think you know kind of what you're saying is was inevitable, not only just inevitable, but but a natural consequence of the way things occurred. 00:46:42.800 --> 00:46:47.360 I think I think that's I don't know, fairly well agreed. 00:46:47.519 --> 00:46:52.559 I'm sure there are alternative explanations, but that seems to be the status quo, the paradigm. 00:46:52.800 --> 00:46:54.320 Well, I think the different elements are there. 00:46:54.559 --> 00:47:08.079 I think that those the the elements of that story are there, but I think like kind of weaving that all together you know in this way, I don't think is necessarily, you know, I don't think you're gonna see it on the uh headline of the New York Times. 00:47:08.159 --> 00:47:09.679 I don't think you know what I'm saying? 00:47:10.000 --> 00:47:12.960 Yeah, and it's and it can't be as simple as agriculture, right? 00:47:13.039 --> 00:47:36.559 I mean, it's like I remember um when I was writing my PhD dissertation, uh, which was basically trying to include all of the variables I could possibly think of in a model and then parsing out which ones were the most related, with the um the independent variable being uh the biological health of an aquatic ecosystem. 00:47:36.719 --> 00:47:38.880 And what were all the possible things? 00:47:39.039 --> 00:47:44.719 And most people would say at the time that the paradigm was agriculture, urban land use. 00:47:44.880 --> 00:47:52.239 When you take a forest and humans come in and convert it to a farm or they convert it to a city, all the biota gets fucked. 00:47:52.320 --> 00:47:57.440 I mean, and so, but I'm like, yeah, but what's the causal agent? 00:47:57.679 --> 00:48:01.599 What are the mechanisms through which these insults are delivered? 00:48:01.679 --> 00:48:12.159 And a friend of mine goes, Yeah, you know, if you build a house, the bug in the stream doesn't go, oh shit, there goes the neighborhood, you know, which is kind of the the scene that we're saying now. 00:48:12.239 --> 00:48:21.519 It's like, oh, because we decided to grow crops, we got, you know, from my writing, Egypt, or we got um nuclear warheads. 00:48:22.079 -->

00:48:23.920 You know, that's not the cause. 00:48:24.079 --> 00:48:26.239 And I think we're at the point where we're sort of digging. 00:48:26.320 --> 00:48:27.760 What we're doing here is digging into that. 00:48:28.079 --> 00:48:30.880 Yeah, and I mean it makes it makes sense that you would think that, right? 00:48:30.960 --> 00:48:35.679 I mean, because like you can you can see it looks like, okay, well, this thing happened and then that thing happened. 00:48:35.760 --> 00:48:37.360 So, you know, that's the cause. 00:48:37.519 --> 00:48:38.960 But what's what how's that go? 00:48:39.039 --> 00:48:43.760 It's like causality isn't like correlation isn't causation. 00:48:44.079 --> 00:48:47.519 And I think, and that's kind of like the the danger of that kind of thinking. 00:48:47.599 --> 00:49:05.599 And I think this is what we get at with, you know, I think when we start to look at what I'm describing as the dynamic of these small groups versus larger populations and how this kind of translates into where we're at today, I think that's where we start to really see that mechanism. 00:49:05.840 --> 00:49:12.480 Like what what are those what are those underlying forces that are driving the stuff that we're seeing? 00:49:12.880 --> 00:49:13.119 Right. 00:49:13.360 --> 00:49:17.760 Yeah, and I think you've again elegantly laid out several of them today. 00:49:17.920 --> 00:49:26.960 But each each iteration of this kind of these kind of discussions, I think gets us closer to understanding uh what happened. 00:49:27.039 --> 00:49:52.480 Because I don't I don't know how and and and you know, the the sort of one of the last questions I have for you is how you maintain a positive attitude about this thing, because on the one hand, you know, we're on a we're on a sinking ship and it's it's hard to take all that we've said in any other context besides you know, we're we're shitting where we eat or we're burning down our house or you know, whatever the metaphor is. 00:49:53.039 --> 00:50:01.519 Um but I and and and to a point you made earlier, I used to be very noble savage about this. 00:50:01.679 --> 00:50:12.079 You know, I actually thought when I went into the woods where there was still woods, like um in a national forest or something, I actually thought those trees had never been cut. 00:50:12.719 --> 00:50:22.000 And through my education, I would learn, you know, that some of those trees were only 40, 50 years old and had been clear cut and was a field, you know, and had been harvested many times. 00:50:22.320 --> 00:50:22.400 Right. 00:50:22.559 --> 00:50:22.800 Yeah. 00:50:22.960 --> 00:50:34.159 Uh and so yeah, once once that and I don't think there's any way of going back to some uh naively utopian fantasy of how we used to live. 00:50:34.960 --> 00:50:36.480 And that's and that's been an evolution. 00:50:36.559 --> 00:50:42.800 I mean, this is only recently for me that I've sort of come to Jesus with these things and sort of said, Oh wait, I've

been really wrong. 00:50:42.960 --> 00:50:52.000 Uh but it does beg the question of sort of like how do we find the optimism uh to continue moving forward? 00:50:52.079 --> 00:50:54.719 And what you know, what does that look like? 00:50:54.880 --> 00:51:09.280 What does how does understanding who we were help us can it even help us sort of um make the change that changes that might be necessary to get to some future right? 00:51:09.679 --> 00:51:12.719 Yeah, as the at the next level of accretion, do we have any controls? 00:51:14.639 --> 00:51:20.719 And I, you know, I think that um I I can only speak from my personal perspective as far as that goes. 00:51:20.880 --> 00:51:27.119 I don't offer any suggestions on what's what next steps are. 00:51:27.280 --> 00:51:28.159 Like I don't do that. 00:51:28.320 --> 00:51:28.719 I can't. 00:51:28.800 --> 00:51:42.480 I have I have ideas, but I don't offer because I think that what we are what people like you and I are really getting at is something that is incredibly profound. 00:51:42.800 --> 00:51:49.119 It is game-changing as far as I'm concerned, and it's something that needs to be really sat with. 00:51:49.280 --> 00:51:55.760 I think it's something that needs to be meditated on, I think it's something that really needs to be considered and internalized and processed. 00:51:56.000 --> 00:52:06.800 Uh and um because in a lot of ways, because for the reason that we were talking about earlier, that I do think that this is natural. 00:52:06.960 --> 00:52:08.559 I think this is nature. 00:52:08.960 --> 00:52:13.280 The horrors are part of nature. 00:52:13.440 --> 00:52:26.400 I mean, like our brain is capable of un what we would like to think were unimaginable horrors, were uh, but it's also capable of absolutely some sublime achievements, right? 00:52:26.480 --> 00:52:32.559 I mean, like being able to, you know, listen to music and to see a sunrise and appreciate music. 00:52:32.800 --> 00:52:33.840 Appreciate, yeah, right. 00:52:33.920 --> 00:52:43.199 I mean, it's like really beautiful, wonderful things that operate simultaneously with the the horrors that we are experiencing that we're we're reviewing, right? 00:52:43.679 --> 00:52:44.800 So how do we deal with that? 00:52:44.960 --> 00:53:00.320 Well, I think my the what keeps me going is that I'm so excited about this research because I feel like I feel like I'm getting closer and closer to really understanding the operating system, like what our operating system is. 00:53:00.480 --> 00:53:08.559 And you know, one when you get to the core code, then you can, you know, you can really kind of like you can work with it and you can't rewrite it. 00:53:08.719 --> 00:53:11.519 That's not really what we can't do that, right? 00:53:11.679 --> 00:53:17.760 We we what we can do is we can see how what those programs are, how they work, and what we can do with them. 00:53:18.480 --> 00:53:32.400 So it's kind of like, you know, for like a for example, is, you know, my personal journey has been I realize that I think of myself as the cortex, right? 00:53:32.559 --> 00:53:40.800 I think of myself like I'm I'm this narrative that I have spun over the course of gener like the course of decades. 00:53:40.960 --> 00:53:44.880 You know, I am this this story that I told myself. 00:53:45.039 --> 00:53:46.639 And it all it's all in here, right? 00:53:46.719 --> 00:53:59.280 So I I was thinking as I'm starting to do this research, I'm like, what if I can just get, I can figure out a way where I can my cortex can basically tell my visceral core what to do. 00:53:59.440 --> 00:54:01.119 And it's like, dude, stop. 00:54:01.519 --> 00:54:01.840 No. 00:54:02.800 --> 00:54:09.599 I I the the person who I think I am is no less that visceral core. 00:54:09.840 --> 00:54:18.639 Because the person that I am are the patterns of behavior, the feelings, the the the impulses that have driven me my whole life. 00:54:18.880 --> 00:54:21.280 Like that's all, that's all who I am. 00:54:21.519 --> 00:54:25.199 It's I'm I'm not a narrative of like this is what I should do. 00:54:25.440 --> 00:54:26.719 That's a narrative. 00:54:26.880 --> 00:54:33.760 That's a that's an arbitrary set of metrics that that were culturally imprinted on me. 00:54:33.920 --> 00:54:35.199 That's what that is. 00:54:35.599 --> 00:54:38.960 And and it's not as important as we think it is. 00:54:39.199 --> 00:54:46.719 You know, my my goal right now is to like really embrace and appreciate that older part of my brain. 00:54:46.960 --> 00:54:52.880 And to and also to recognize that the value systems that I have are not are not natural. 00:54:53.039 --> 00:54:57.119 They're they're not like they're not written in stone, they're not handed down from God. 00:54:57.280 --> 00:55:01.199 They are they are accepted value systems, right? 00:55:01.360 --> 00:55:10.960 And and it's like, you know, one of the things that I'm kind of like that I've really kind of comforted myself with is to consider alternative value systems. 00:55:11.119 --> 00:55:29.840 Like, for example, Chris, you know, I'm like, well, you know, what if instead of thinking about like liberal, like the liberal good and bad kind of ideas and metrics, um, what if I instead kind of like experiment with the thought of what's the carrying capacity of the planet? 00:55:30.079 --> 00:55:30.400 Right. 00:55:30.480 --> 00:55:39.599 And like what would what would that carrying capacity be with human beings and what you know and at what level of technology, right? 00:55:39.679 --> 00:56:00.079 You know, and like kind of thinking about like, okay, well, maybe instead of instead of you know having some kind of like a culturally, a culturally created metric or moral, maybe I can start thinking about things in a in a in the the same way that I've been investigating like the the collapse engine. 00:56:00.159 --> 00:56:04.320 You know, it's like what what is it that that we're here for? 00:56:04.480 --> 00:56:09.039

Like going back to like my very original kind of inspiration, like what is life? 00:56:09.199 --> 00:56:11.119 Like, how did we how did we get here? 00:56:11.199 --> 00:56:13.679 You know, and like what does that what does that really mean? 00:56:13.840 --> 00:56:26.000 And I feel like that that is really where uh what I'm getting at with this, with this interrogation of like our brains and culture and how it works together, how we got here, why we make the decisions that we do. 00:56:26.239 --> 00:56:42.400 And it's giving me this, it's giving me this opportunity to really kind of like reevaluate like what what's important, what matters to me, what's important to like my community, what my community is, what it means to be like a steward of nature. 00:56:42.559 --> 00:56:46.800 You know, that's a big thing for me, is like stewardship, sustainability. 00:56:46.960 --> 00:56:48.800 What does sustainability mean? 00:56:49.039 --> 00:56:50.159 Is that important to me? 00:56:50.239 --> 00:56:51.280 Why is it important to me? 00:56:51.360 --> 00:57:09.760 You know, it's like these are the these are the things like I feel like we've basically built a whole world on a foundation of air, a foundation of like marshmallows, you know, and I and I feel like what what I'm doing is I'm trying to really say like where's the ground? 00:57:09.840 --> 00:57:10.960 What's the fundament? 00:57:11.280 --> 00:57:15.599 You know, like like Sapolski likes to say like it's turtles all the way down. 00:57:16.320 --> 00:57:31.920 And uh, you know, but but even that it's like okay, well, I just I want to know what if if I can see those turtles, like even though it's it's a layer built on layer, like okay, that's fine. 00:57:32.159 --> 00:57:56.960 But I would like to actually kind of like basically say, like, at a certain point, I'm gonna go back to a particular layer and see the way that those layers built on each other, and I'm gonna try and kind of maybe I can build a moral core that is that is that is in alignment with with the way that things have have moved and matured naturally. 00:57:57.440 --> 00:58:06.400 I don't know if that sounds like the the ramblings of a unibomber or not, but that no, you know what that sounded like that whole end part was one of the most beautiful things I've ever heard. 00:58:06.480 --> 00:58:23.039 It sounds like a manifesto, like um, like a recipe for the next step between one sitting with it and not which I do, I'm very guilty of not doing, and sort of jumping to a dopamine driven conclusion of some sort. 00:58:23.119 --> 00:58:24.480 Like, I need the answer. 00:58:24.719 --> 00:58:30.000 I mean, I think the first step is if you're doing that, you probably should that should be like a red flag. 00:58:30.159 --> 00:58:30.400 Yes. 00:58:30.639 --> 00:58:32.239 Like, okay, you need to stop doing that. 00:58:32.400 --> 00:58:33.760 And why do you need to stop doing that? 00:58:33.840 --> 00:58:36.079 It's because you need to listen more. 00:58:36.239 --> 00:58:46.079 Uh, and then yeah, I mean, what everything that you said that followed that, I thought was at least four or five additional hour-long discussions. 00:58:46.400 --> 00:58:46.800 Wow. 00:58:47.039 --> 00:58:48.079 And I'm glad we have it. 00:58:48.480 --> 00:58:49.599 That is really moving, man. 00:58:49.679 --> 00:58:50.800 Thank you so much for saying that. 00:58:50.880 --> 00:58:51.280 I appreciate it. 00:58:51.440 --> 00:58:54.719 I I I mean, I've I mean, it was like I was watching an artist paint. 00:58:54.880 --> 00:58:56.480 I mean, I don't know how you did that. 00:58:56.800 --> 00:58:58.320 Um, yeah, that was really cool. 00:58:58.400 --> 00:59:01.440 And I and I'm really glad that we have it. 00:59:01.679 --> 00:59:05.280 Uh, and I think it's a good place to end because it was so eloquent. 00:59:05.360 --> 00:59:07.440 I think people should sit with what you said. 00:59:07.679 --> 00:59:13.679 Although my um intuition is to want to dig into all of it, you know, piece by piece. 00:59:14.000 --> 00:59:16.079 Can I like can I comment on that really quick? 00:59:16.320 --> 00:59:26.480 Yeah, because I did I actually have another sub my first substack post that I posted was about how Madame Curie or Marie Curie uh is my is my house cat. 00:59:27.440 --> 00:59:28.800 And this is what I mean. 00:59:29.119 --> 00:59:31.199 My house cat drives me crazy. 00:59:31.280 --> 00:59:31.599 Okay. 00:59:32.079 --> 00:59:33.280 I got her up the street. 00:59:33.360 --> 00:59:36.400 She insisted on she come on coming home with me, and I gave in. 00:59:36.559 --> 00:59:38.079 She totally she got me. 00:59:38.239 --> 00:59:42.159 I brought her home, and she is out of control. 00:59:42.320 --> 00:59:44.480 Like she runs everywhere all the time. 00:59:44.639 --> 00:59:48.000 All the shit, I gotta tell you, there's food everywhere. 00:59:48.239 --> 00:59:53.119 You would not know it, but according to her, there is food everywhere, and she's gonna find it. 00:59:53.280 --> 00:59:55.519 Okay, and so she's like, oh, is it? 00:59:55.679 --> 01:00:01.599 She's like crying, she's like and running and and knocking things over, making me crazy. 01:00:01.920 --> 01:00:18.719 And you know, I and I first I for some god-awful reason, I suddenly thought of Marie Curie and the and the way that you know she was determined to kind of like find out about radium, you know, radium was her thing, man. 01:00:18.800 --> 01:00:23.280 And so she was just like, I'm gonna figure it out, figure it out, figure it out, figure out where is it, where is it? 01:00:23.519 --> 01:00:25.760 And and it killed her, right? 01:00:25.840 --> 01:00:27.199 I mean, you know what happened, right? 01:00:27.280 --> 01:00:33.760 It's like she totally it murdered her because she was just what was more important to her than her her safety, right? 01:00:33.920 --> 01:00:38.000 Was that she was gonna dig into that whatever it was, man. 01:00:38.400 --> 01:00:43.039 And you know, and I think that's maybe that's part of our I think maybe that's just part of life. 01:00:43.199 --> 01:00:51.119 Like I feel like that's kind of life, and when I look at when I look at my cat Mouse, I call her Mouse, you know, that's what I see. 01:00:51.360 --> 01:00:53.599 I see Mary, I see Marie Curie, right? 01:00:53.679 --> 01:00:56.960 I see Curie kind of like, I'm digging, I'm looking, I'm looking. 01:00:57.039 --> 01:00:57.599 Where is it? 01:00:57.679 --> 01:01:06.480 It doesn't matter whether there's it's there or not, she's just got to keep looking, you know, and even if it means that she's gonna like she ends up killing herself. 01:01:06.559 --> 01:01:10.480 My I mean, my cat, Jesus, you see the things that she knocks over makes me nuts. 01:01:11.280 --> 01:01:12.719 But it's that kind of thing, right? 01:01:12.800 --> 01:01:15.519 Where it's just like we're driven, we're driven, we're driven. 01:01:15.679 --> 01:01:18.880 You know, we need to keep looking, we need to keep looking. 01:01:19.519 --> 01:01:20.480 That's awesome. 01:01:20.800 --> 01:01:23.119 Jag rabbit, I don't know what to say. 01:01:23.280 --> 01:01:25.760 Thank you very much for sharing your wisdom with us. 01:01:26.000 --> 01:01:27.199 Oh, it's my pleasure, man. 01:01:27.280 --> 01:01:27.599 Thank you. 01:01:27.679 --> 01:01:28.719 Uh thank you, Chris. 01:01:28.800 --> 01:01:37.519 I mean, I really I'm so grateful to you for like you know wanting to talk, and I feel like this is a wonderful conversation, and I'm I'm I'm just feel really blessed. 01:01:37.679 --> 01:01:40.480 And um, yeah, I look forward to the next one. 01:01:42.639 --> 01:01:45.199 Thank you for listening to the 10,000 year problem. 01:01:45.679 --> 01:01:47.039 I'm Chris Bercher. 01:01:47.199 --> 01:01:58.159 Here you'll find weekly interviews rotating with solo episodes about who we were 10,000 years ago so we can understand who we are now and who we want to be in the future. 01:01:58.480 --> 01:02:07.039 If you like what you're hearing, please subscribe to the podcast and visit our Substack at the 10,000 Year Problem for longer form essays on these subjects and more. 01:02:07.519 --> 01:02:09.760 10,000 Years brought us here. 01:02:10.079 --> 01:02:13.280 The next chapter is ours to write.