התמלול המלא של Transformative Coaching

2023 in Pittsburgh, and Karen Gonzalez Rice and I decided to pitch 72 00:04:06,220 --> 00:04:11,429 a birds of a feather session, which POD attendees may know more about. 73 00:04:11,430 --> 00:04:13,409 They're very informal conversations. 74 00:04:13,419 --> 00:04:17,029 They usually take place first thing in the morning on one of the conference 75 00:04:17,029 --> 00:04:23,109 days, and they're opportunities for people to informally discuss something 76 00:04:23,110 --> 00:04:25,469 that's of sort of emerging interest. 77 00:04:25,669 --> 00:04:29,810 And so we pitched a birds of feather session on coaching. 78 00:04:30,139 --> 00:04:35,899 Kitty was in the group of attendees that day, and she was already working with 79 00:04:35,930 --> 00:04:42,469 Katie Linder and her coaching program for academics, and so within a couple of 80 00:04:42,479 --> 00:04:47,999 months after that November conference, the four of us had kind of connected and 81 00:04:48,009 --> 00:04:53,540 expressed interest in doing an edited collection and put together a call for 82 00:04:53,540 --> 00:04:55,939 proposals, and we were off to the races. 83 00:04:56,269 --> 00:04:56,669 KRISTIN: Excellent. 84 00:04:56,669 --> 00:04:58,939 And who's the intended audience for the book? 85 00:04:59,399 --> 00:05:02,589 KITTY: Well, it's really interesting, because we started out thinking that 86 00:05:02,589 --> 00:05:05,719 this book was going to be mainly for other coaches working in higher 87 00:05:05,719 --> 00:05:10,890 ed, or possibly people who we call coaching curious, just those who are 88 00:05:10,890 --> 00:05:14,640 wondering what coaching is about, and maybe if they want to become a coach. 89 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:18,819 But it was really interesting as we started to talk to potential collaborators 90 00:05:18,959 --> 00:05:23,400 and contributors, our vision of what this book could be really expanded, 91 00:05:23,410 --> 00:05:27,729 and we realized that coaching has applications that really go beyond what 92 00:05:27,729 --> 00:05:34,279 we had initially proposed, so while the most obvious audience would be those who 93 00:05:34,449 --> 00:05:38,589 support faculty and staff in higher ed, that's to say, people like educational 94 00:05:38,589 --> 00:05:43,800 developers, or maybe even folks who work in HR, several pieces relate directly to, 95 00:05:43,830 --> 00:05:48,879 for example, faculty roles like chairing a department, or even teaching, and so 96 00:05:49,190 --> 00:05:54,039 we ended up adding some other chapters to have a more capacious vision of what 97 00:05:54,179 --> 00:05:59,030 coaching could do in higher ed, so we have chapters from mid-level administrators, 98 00:05:59,230 --> 00:06:04,040 we have some other chapters for people working in different parts of higher 99 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:08,100 ed, like instructional design, and I guess I would say our real wish for an 100 00:06:08,110 --> 00:06:13,719 audience, our sort of shadow audience, is upper-level administrators who hold the 101 00:06:13,719 --> 00:06:19,010 purse strings and can really hopefully have an opportunity to see how coaching 102 00:06:19,019 --> 00:06:22,989 might benefit their institutions and those working in them, and how it might 103 00:06:22,990 --> 00:06:26,890 be deployed throughout the university, but I think our overall takeaway here 104 00:06:26,890 --> 00:06:32,199 is that coaching is a really nimble way to support individuals at a complex 105 00:06:32,239 --> 00:06:34,019 moment in higher ed and the world. 106 00:06:34,529 --> 00:06:34,899 KRISTIN: Excellent. 107 00:06:35,450 --> 00:06:39,030 JOHN: How did you select the authors of the chapters of this book? 108 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:44,789 SUSAN: We circulated our call for proposals widely among all of the 109 00:06:44,820 --> 00:06:49,039 coaching networks that the four of us were already a part of, and 110 00:06:49,039 --> 00:06:51,019 encouraged them to share freely. 111 00:06:51,149 --> 00:06:56,029 One reality that we recognized in seeing the need for this book was that there 112 00:06:56,059 --> 00:07:00,810 aren't that many… there really aren't any… formal organizations for those 113 00:07:00,810 --> 00:07:06,369 who work in coaching in higher ed, and so it had to be sort of a grassroots 114 00:07:06,559 --> 00:07:14,199 solicitation, and we got a really generous, lovely set of submissions 115 00:07:14,580 --> 00:07:20,469 that then we got together, talked about where there might be some topics that we 116 00:07:20,470 --> 00:07:25,470 wanted to see, but no one had submitted on, recruited a few more people who we 117 00:07:25,470 --> 00:07:31,369 knew had expertise in those areas, and overall we're just super excited to have 118 00:07:31,509 --> 00:07:35,809 almost 30 contributors, or maybe a little more than 30 contributors to the book. 119 00:07:36,079 --> 00:07:38,819 KRISTIN: Yeah, I was struck in looking through the book at both the 120 00:07:38,820 --> 00:07:42,960 unified voice, but also the really personal voices in it, and having 121 00:07:42,970 --> 00:07:46,539 that many contributors gives you an opportunity to have a lot of different 122 00:07:46,540 --> 00:07:48,459 voices in a kind of personal way. 123 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:50,699 The book is divided into six sections. 124 00:07:50,699 --> 00:07:53,649 You were talking previously about all the different aspects 125 00:07:53,649 --> 00:07:54,919 that you wanted to bring in. 126 00:07:54,989 --> 00:07:58,560 Can you give us an overview of what kind of thing is addressed in each section? 127 00:07:58,769 --> 00:07:59,890 KITTY: Sure, I'd be happy to. 128 00:08:00,070 --> 00:08:04,179 We start with a section on the foundations of coaching, which 129 00:08:04,199 --> 00:08:08,330 is really an introduction to what coaching actually is and is not. 130 00:08:08,500 --> 00:08:11,350 Susan just referred to the fact that sometimes coaching isn't even 131 00:08:11,350 --> 00:08:15,069 really

well defined, and can even have a questionable reputation, 132 00:08:15,410 --> 00:08:16,839 depending on who you're talking to. 133 00:08:16,839 --> 00:08:20,369 So, this book, in the intro, we really established the norms of the 134 00:08:20,369 --> 00:08:23,069 International Coaching Federation, which is where most of us have been 135 00:08:23,069 --> 00:08:27,299 trained, or we've been trained in with organizations that are adjacent and use 136 00:08:27,300 --> 00:08:32,059 some of those same principles, and that is defining coaching as a collaborative 137 00:08:32,059 --> 00:08:36,089 process between a client and a coach to support the client in reaching goals. 138 00:08:36,779 --> 00:08:41,329 And then the second part is about growing coaching skills, and it really 139 00:08:41,330 --> 00:08:46,230 explores how to develop some of the essential skills and competencies that 140 00:08:46,239 --> 00:08:50,799 we associate with coaching, and how those can support folks in higher ed. 141 00:08:51,110 --> 00:08:55,510 So we talk about cultural awareness, we talk about knowledge of the 142 00:08:55,510 --> 00:09:01,530 profession, and we also talk about ways we can support the entire spectrum 143 00:09:01,530 --> 00:09:03,709 of neurodiversity with our clients. 144 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:08,660 The next section is about applying coaching skills to specific scenarios, 145 00:09:08,690 --> 00:09:13,849 and so we really explore how coaching can be used in teaching, research, and 146 00:09:13,859 --> 00:09:19,200 leadership positions, and a subsequent section talks more about coaching 147 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:24,770 for specific audiences, so we look at coaching for folks who are in roles 148 00:09:24,779 --> 00:09:29,519 like senior administration or student affairs, instructional technology, 149 00:09:29,680 --> 00:09:33,470 and also people who may just be having certain experiences in higher ed, for 150 00:09:33,470 --> 00:09:35,459 example, those experiencing burnout. 151 00:09:35,950 --> 00:09:39,359 And then we have a section on coaching the career cycle, where we focus 152 00:09:39,410 --> 00:09:45,989 on how coaches can help develop or help others develop vitality in the 153 00:09:45,989 --> 00:09:47,980 different stages of their careers. 154 00:09:48,279 --> 00:09:52,019 So that one's a little more faculty focused, although not exclusively so, 155 00:09:52,660 --> 00:09:57,380 and then our last section is about group, team, and peer coaching materials, 156 00:09:57,509 --> 00:10:01,859 and that section we think about how we can scale coaching to reach more 157 00:10:01,860 --> 00:10:06,989 people than just a typical one-on-one individual interaction, so we think 158 00:10:06,989 --> 00:10:11,419 about how coaching can play a role in organizational transformation, or how we 159 00:10:11,419 --> 00:10:14,079 can use coaching to develop community. 160 00:10:14,459 --> 00:10:19,699 KRISTIN: I appreciated your use of the term coaching curious, because I think 161 00:10:19,709 --> 00:10:25,580 having that variety of topics really gives people a chance to see the range with 162 00:10:25,580 --> 00:10:27,940 which coaching can be used in higher ed. 163 00:10:28,299 --> 00:10:32,089 JOHN: What led you to see coaching as a useful framework for faculty 164 00:10:32,089 --> 00:10:33,890 and staff development in higher ed? 165 00:10:34,139 --> 00:10:39,959 SUSAN: Well, I had begun my academic career working in writing centers, 166 00:10:40,119 --> 00:10:47,680 and in that field the writer is always given the agency and autonomy to be 167 00:10:47,680 --> 00:10:52,929 in charge of their own work, and you work with the peer tutors, or the peer 168 00:10:52,930 --> 00:10:59,399 consultants, as they're called sometimes, to respect the control of the output 169 00:10:59,439 --> 00:11:04,130 to the student, and so when I first learned about coaching, I immediately 170 00:11:04,130 --> 00:11:10,679 recognized a similar kind of ethos, which is different than mentoring and different 171 00:11:10,699 --> 00:11:15,199 than consulting, and different from therapy in an important way that maybe 172 00:11:15,199 --> 00:11:21,090 we can address later, but mostly in that a mentor or a consultant is someone who 173 00:11:21,119 --> 00:11:27,299 has the knowledge that they're planning to impart to the person being mentored, 174 00:11:27,709 --> 00:11:34,269 whereas coaching respects the client or the coachee as the expert in their 175 00:11:34,269 --> 00:11:39,909 own situation, and the person who the answers really need to be drawn out from. 176 00:11:40,199 --> 00:11:44,390 And so I also connected with it as an educational developer, and thinking 177 00:11:44,390 --> 00:11:49,159 about active learning, because telling people what to do just doesn't work, 178 00:11:50,099 --> 00:11:56,650 [LAUGHTER] as wise as it may be, and telling them about the knowledge or 179 00:11:56,650 --> 00:12:00,950 skills you want them to develop is just not as effective as allowing 180 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:07,959 them to come to those realizations for themselves, and so I saw the value in it. 181 00:12:08,469 --> 00:12:12,670 I was already committed to its usefulness in learning, and coaching, 182 00:12:12,869 --> 00:12:16,550 in the end, is a lot about the learning process of the client. 183 00:12:16,879 --> 00:12:20,869 KRISTIN: And John didn't mention, but I'll say, I'm a clinical psychologist, 184 00:12:20,939 --> 00:12:23,809 that's my background, so I'll just double down on what you said there. 185 00:12:24,070 --> 00:12:24,120 [LAUGHTER] 186 00:12:24,549 --> 00:12:25,689 SUSAN: Yes, thank you. 187 00:12:25,939 --> 00:12:28,829 KITTY: And I would also say that coaching for educational developers, 188 00:12:28,829 --> 00:12:30,949 coaching is kind of in the air anyway. 189 00:12:30,950 --> 00:12:37,149 There's a really canonical article from 2011 by Michael Palmer and Deandra 190 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:41,090 Little, which

is called “A coaching-based framework for individual consultations,” 191 00:12:41,129 --> 00:12:46,280 and a lot of us use that, and I used it for years to help me be a better 192 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:52,099 consultant when folks come in for specific pedagogical reasons, or even just to 193 00:12:52,099 --> 00:12:56,859 talk about career questions, and so I was already using some of those principles, 194 00:12:56,889 --> 00:13:01,229 and so it was a really exciting opportunity to develop those coaching 195 00:13:01,229 --> 00:13:03,189 skills and really take them further. 196 00:13:03,650 --> 00:13:07,809 KRISTIN: Beyond some of the iconic articles in the field, your book cites 197 00:13:07,819 --> 00:13:12,469 several studies concerning the impact of coaching in workplace settings. 198 00:13:12,629 --> 00:13:14,940 Tell us a little about the research foundation here. 199 00:13:15,349 --> 00:13:19,030 KITTY: Absolutely, so we have a very short literature review in the 200 00:13:19,030 --> 00:13:23,850 book that will point you to some helpful resources that talk about 201 00:13:23,979 --> 00:13:26,209 what coaching is and how it works. 202 00:13:26,519 --> 00:13:30,380 In particular, there are two meta analyses, one that came out in 2016 203 00:13:30,380 --> 00:13:35,510 and one that came out in 2023 that have both looked at the literature 204 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:40,050 to demonstrate how coaching is an effective workplace intervention, and 205 00:13:40,459 --> 00:13:44,370 more specifically, what that could mean is that coaching has been linked in the 206 00:13:44,370 --> 00:13:50,459 research to things like greater optimism, work-life satisfaction, engagement in 207 00:13:50,459 --> 00:13:56,429 work, productivity for workers, and it's also been studied in terms of how 208 00:13:56,430 --> 00:14:00,029 it can improve management skills for those who are in supervisory roles. 209 00:14:00,610 --> 00:14:04,999 So, there's a recognition there that more research is needed, that it's really an 210 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:09,379 evolving field and has become more and more common in the workplace over the 211 00:14:09,379 --> 00:14:14,779 past 20 years, but there's also a lot that's very promising there, and I would 212 00:14:14,779 --> 00:14:20,419 just say that what it really does for me is confirm the positive results that we 213 00:14:20,419 --> 00:14:25,179 tend to see firsthand as coaches in our sessions, or even those of us who've been 214 00:14:25,179 --> 00:14:29,029 coached ourselves, so it sort of confirms that anecdotal evidence that we already 215 00:14:29,029 --> 00:14:31,449 had, that it's a very powerful practice. 216 00:14:32,179 --> 00:14:32,329 KRISTIN: Thank you. 217 00:14:32,929 --> 00:14:36,330 JOHN: Your book title uses the word “transformative.” What makes 218 00:14:36,349 --> 00:14:41,099 coaching transformative rather than simply supportive or developmental? 219 00:14:41,809 --> 00:14:45,769 SUSAN: Yeah, we address in the introduction just briefly the fact 220 00:14:45,769 --> 00:14:51,389 that the word transformative is more than just an adjective for a number 221 00:14:51,390 --> 00:14:58,300 of theories of leadership, and we want to signal with that word that we are 222 00:14:58,540 --> 00:15:04,490 taking a particularly open approach to multiple different ways of thinking about 223 00:15:04,509 --> 00:15:11,179 transformation, but I can say about the way that coaching, in particular, signals 224 00:15:11,180 --> 00:15:16,219 transformation to me comes from one of the leaders in the field, Marcia Reynolds. 225 00:15:16,779 --> 00:15:21,709 She wrote a book, I think, called Coach the Person, Not the Problem, [LAUGHTER] in 226 00:15:21,719 --> 00:15:28,469 that one of the most important questions and transformational questions in 227 00:15:28,529 --> 00:15:36,090 coaching sessions can be what makes this important, and so you're drawing out from 228 00:15:36,299 --> 00:15:42,380 the client not just a solution to their immediate problem, but something deeper, 229 00:15:42,389 --> 00:15:48,389 something that would signal a shift that is a new perspective for them, a new 230 00:15:48,730 --> 00:15:54,569 insight that might change their behaviors or even beliefs, and so in that respect 231 00:15:54,580 --> 00:15:57,069 it's more than a surface- level change. 232 00:15:57,659 --> 00:16:03,169 KRISTIN: I know that none of us are unaware that higher ed is going through 233 00:16:03,220 --> 00:16:08,620 a lot of change right now, and that we have many faculty and staff colleagues 234 00:16:08,629 --> 00:16:15,049 who are experiencing burnout, who are feeling particularly uncertain, who 235 00:16:15,059 --> 00:16:20,220 may have difficulty seeing what their future is in higher ed and aligning 236 00:16:20,220 --> 00:16:24,849 their own values to some of the changes in their regions of the country. 237 00:16:25,329 --> 00:16:30,359 Tell us a little bit about how coaching can be useful in a setting like this. 238 00:16:30,919 --> 00:16:34,620 KITTY: So I think to go back to our conversation about that word 239 00:16:35,180 --> 00:16:39,629 transformational, I would say that coaching is really particularly useful 240 00:16:39,889 --> 00:16:43,949 for people navigating transitions and change, and frankly, that's when most 241 00:16:43,949 --> 00:16:47,990 people start to seek out coaching support is when they're going through 242 00:16:47,990 --> 00:16:51,429 something where they're really not sure what to do, [LAUGHTER] they're really 243 00:16:51,430 --> 00:16:55,709 not sure where to go next, and so anytime there is a lot of uncertainty 244 00:16:55,709 --> 00:16:58,519 and change in someone's life, coaching can be a really helpful response. 245 00:16:59,169 --> 00:17:02,999 It kind of gives people back that sense of agency in some way or another. 246 00:17:03,479 --> 00:17:08,419 In terms of burnout, in particular, we have a really great chapter in our book 247

00:17:08,559 --> 00:17:13,219 by Rebecca Pope-Ruark, who wrote the book Unraveling Faculty Burnout, where she 248 00:17:13,220 --> 00:17:18,050 really explores this in terms of faculty, and in that chapter she offers some tools 249 00:17:18,050 --> 00:17:22,839 for coaches to help people rediscover purpose, compassion, connection, and 250 00:17:22,849 --> 00:17:27,409 balance, and those are the four things that she notes that are pillars of burnout 251 00:17:27,410 --> 00:17:31,489 resistance, the things that help us find ourselves when we're facing those 252 00:17:31,529 --> 00:17:34,460 challenging moments in our careers. 253 00:17:34,769 --> 00:17:40,639 And I would say more globally, as we've started to think about coaching as an 254 00:17:40,669 --> 00:17:46,529 ecosystem that could exist within higher ed, I see it as a hopeful space where 255 00:17:46,539 --> 00:17:51,669 we can actually build more humane and inclusive higher education workplaces 256 00:17:51,700 --> 00:17:57,179 that really respect the individual needs of the people who work here. 257 00:17:57,620 --> 00:17:57,960 KRISTIN: Thank you. 258 00:17:58,300 --> 00:18:02,789 JOHN: Teaching centers and faculty developers often serve a role where they 259 00:18:02,849 --> 00:18:07,519 answer questions for people, they provide models of effective teaching practices. 260 00:18:07,750 --> 00:18:11,390 They do workshops and so forth, but the coaching approach is a bit 261 00:18:11,390 --> 00:18:13,600 different than that type of interaction. 262 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:16,959 Can you talk a little bit about how a coaching approach might change 263 00:18:17,010 --> 00:18:20,809 the nature of interactions with teaching centers and what a typical 264 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:22,770 coaching session might look like? 265 00:18:23,149 --> 00:18:28,899 SUSAN: So, the most conventional kind of coaching is one on one, and so it's 266 00:18:29,169 --> 00:18:34,069 not a workshop typically, not that a workshop can't employ coaching strategies, 267 00:18:34,509 --> 00:18:40,629 but as we were discussing earlier, it's about drawing out the expertise of the 268 00:18:40,629 --> 00:18:45,999 person that they already possess, so a coach would ask: “Where are you now? 269 00:18:46,239 --> 00:18:50,149 What would be different if you achieve this change that you want to make? 270 00:18:50,270 --> 00:18:52,279 What are your options for getting there? 271 00:18:52,589 --> 00:18:56,350 What obstacles can you anticipate, and how will you respond? 272 00:18:56,500 --> 00:19:03,600 What's the first step?” And so those are each pieces of a coaching framework 273 00:19:03,689 --> 00:19:08,560 that the client has to answer for themselves, and so if you think about 274 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:13,490 it in terms of a client who might be also interested in changing their 275 00:19:13,490 --> 00:19:18,909 teaching strategies, let's say it's slower but might be ultimately more 276 00:19:18,909 --> 00:19:21,769 successful route to making that change. 277 00:19:21,919 --> 00:19:26,469 You'd have to acknowledge that it's going to take significant time and resources 278 00:19:26,470 --> 00:19:31,219 to adopt new teaching strategies and refine them, or to envision a different 279 00:19:31,220 --> 00:19:33,989 career path, or a purposeful retirement. 280 00:19:34,339 --> 00:19:39,550 And coaching is allowing you to get clear on why making that change is important 281 00:19:39,550 --> 00:19:42,519 enough to invest that time and energy. 282 00:19:42,729 --> 00:19:48,089 And so if you don't know what strategies you might want to employ, then the 283 00:19:48,089 --> 00:19:52,809 coaching conversation might include, “Let's talk about what your resources are. 284 00:19:52,939 --> 00:19:53,629 Who do you know? 285 00:19:53,639 --> 00:19:54,579 Where could you go? 286 00:19:54,759 --> 00:19:58,559 What actions can you take in order to find those things.” So again, you're 287 00:19:58,559 --> 00:20:02,510 not providing the answers, you're sort of helping the person think 288 00:20:02,510 --> 00:20:04,590 about where they want to pursue those. 289 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:10,299 KRISTIN: And I know many faculty are well versed with what an individual teaching 290 00:20:10,300 --> 00:20:14,759 consultation might feel like, but how would that differ from how a typical 291 00:20:14,879 --> 00:20:17,410 coaching session might feel or look like? 292 00:20:17,690 --> 00:20:21,880 SUSAN: It's different in that, and this is very important for clients to 293 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:28,199 understand, it's usually part of the initial meeting in which we take time to 294 00:20:28,199 --> 00:20:32,689 talk to them about their expectations and how coaching is different from mentoring 295 00:20:32,690 --> 00:20:38,539 or consulting, which is that the coach is not going to hand you the answers. 296 00:20:39,809 --> 00:20:43,110 [LAUGHTER] If that's your expectation, then this is not, 297 00:20:43,319 --> 00:20:45,169 maybe the interaction, or the… 298 00:20:45,190 --> 00:20:47,649 KRISTIN: Oh, but that would be so much easier., wouldn’t it? 299 00:20:47,649 --> 00:20:47,719 [LAUGHTER] 300 00:20:48,620 --> 00:20:49,030 SUSAN: It would… 301 00:20:49,030 --> 00:20:51,479 KRISTIN: You’d just have the magic answers on hand. 302 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:58,000 SUSAN: It would and yet, it wouldn't be as successful in leading to a lasting 303 00:20:58,179 --> 00:21:04,480 change, or growth, or learning, which is hard and takes effort on the part of the 304 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:06,740 person who's seeking out that growth. 305 00:21:07,219 --> 00:21:10,620 KITTY: And I would just add to what Susan said by saying there are times 306 00:21:10,620 --> 00:21:12,379 when coaching isn't the solution. 307 00:21:12,609 --> 00:21:18,539 Sometimes, in a pedagogical consultation, your expertise does come into play, 308 00:21:18,570 --> 00:21:22,580 that people really do want to know, like, what should I do in my

classroom, 309 00:21:22,599 --> 00:21:26,359 what kind of warm-up activities should I do in my classroom, and do you have 310 00:21:26,360 --> 00:21:28,460 any ideas for me that I could use? 311 00:21:28,500 --> 00:21:31,100 And that's not a coaching conversation, that's a consulting 312 00:21:31,100 --> 00:21:32,469 conversation, and that's okay. 313 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:36,649 It doesn't all have to be about coaching, but I think that coaching skills are 314 00:21:36,700 --> 00:21:40,769 valuable, and I think to get back to Susan's point about her writing center 315 00:21:40,770 --> 00:21:47,069 work, the idea that you are seeing the person who's coming to you for a 316 00:21:47,070 --> 00:21:50,589 consultation or a coaching session, you're seeing them as someone who has 317 00:21:50,589 --> 00:21:55,899 more answers than maybe they even realize, and helping draw that out for them with 318 00:21:55,979 --> 00:22:01,719 powerful questions, and sometimes coaching tools and deep listening, that is valuable 319 00:22:01,750 --> 00:22:05,539 in a consultation too, even if it is a moment when you maybe are going to 320 00:22:05,540 --> 00:22:08,869 give somebody a more direct answer, or you're going to be like, "Here's a book 321 00:22:08,869 --> 00:22:12,639 you could take a look at, and it has all sorts of great ideas in it.” So, they 322 00:22:12,639 --> 00:22:14,649 both can be very helpful in this work. 323 00:22:14,979 --> 00:22:15,729 SUSAN: That's right. 324 00:22:16,209 --> 00:22:21,150 KRISTIN: Yeah, I like the writing center analogy, because the best writing 325 00:22:21,339 --> 00:22:26,739 teachers are helping people find their voice and express their own voice, 326 00:22:27,209 --> 00:22:28,659 they're not telling them what to write. 327 00:22:29,089 --> 00:22:32,959 JOHN: So, part of coaching involves having the clients identify their own 328 00:22:32,970 --> 00:22:37,069 goals, but one of the problems that we all have sometimes is having the 329 00:22:37,070 --> 00:22:39,399 motivation to achieve those goals. 330 00:22:39,639 --> 00:22:44,160 How can coaches help their clients remain motivated to achieve their goals? 331 00:22:44,449 --> 00:22:48,820 KITTY: Well, this is a foundational piece of what coaching does, and I 332 00:22:48,839 --> 00:22:53,650 think the first thing is that it helps people identify their values as well as 333 00:22:53,650 --> 00:22:58,469 their true priorities, which sometimes can get lost in all the doing that 334 00:22:58,470 --> 00:23:04,059 consumes so much of our time, so it taps into intrinsic motivation, which 335 00:23:04,059 --> 00:23:09,089 means that if we are able to set goals that matter to us, that helps us make 336 00:23:09,089 --> 00:23:10,960 meaningful progress on those goals. 337 00:23:11,220 --> 00:23:15,679 I think sometimes we have goals in mind and they're actually not our 338 00:23:15,679 --> 00:23:17,060 goals, their someone else's goals. 339 00:23:17,690 --> 00:23:20,899 [LAUGHTER] I mean, sometimes that has to be the way it is in our jobs and 340 00:23:20,910 --> 00:23:25,079 in our lives, but a lot of times there are ways that we can find to tweak the 341 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:29,190 goals, so that we are actually more naturally motivated to accomplish them. 342 00:23:29,839 --> 00:23:32,559 But coaching is also really helpful with project management. 343 00:23:32,660 --> 00:23:38,149 It's helpful in how to plan to find mentors and to find the help that you need 344 00:23:38,220 --> 00:23:43,239 to accomplish a goal, and what kind of resources are needed, and then it also can 345 00:23:43,239 --> 00:23:47,530 provide accountability structure, which is another thing I think, in particular 346 00:23:47,530 --> 00:23:51,600 for academics who do a lot of independent work, where deadlines are a little bit 347 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:56,460 more fluid, or sometimes incredibly fluid, depending on where you are. 348 00:23:56,670 --> 00:23:58,750 It helps kind of stay on track. 349 00:23:59,059 --> 00:24:03,689 Also, sometimes, for example, in coaching, I actually will write follow-up emails 350 00:24:03,689 --> 00:24:08,280 to people, so that's part of my support is checking in to say, “Hey, last week 351 00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:11,579 you said you were going to do this, how's it going for you, how is that going? 352 00:24:11,590 --> 00:24:15,449 And sometimes that's enough to help people kind of loop into the 353 00:24:15,459 --> 00:24:17,060 goals that they want to achieve. 354 00:24:17,549 --> 00:24:21,160 KRISTIN: And I know that faculty who have worked in a more traditional 355 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:25,099 faculty role versus ones who are working in an administrative role, where 356 00:24:25,099 --> 00:24:28,470 there's more of a team environment, will sometimes find that different 357 00:24:28,470 --> 00:24:29,989 structure also to be helpful. 358 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:33,550 So, yeah, it's finding ways to build your own structures in, yes? 359 00:24:33,849 --> 00:24:34,559 KITTY: Absolutely. 360 00:24:34,559 --> 00:24:37,299 And that's one of the other types of conversations we would 361 00:24:37,309 --> 00:24:41,849 have with a client, is: “What's going to help you keep on track. 362 00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:44,209 What do you need to keep on track?” and “How are you going 363 00:24:44,209 --> 00:24:45,680 to build that into your life?” 364 00:24:46,059 --> 00:24:49,659 KRISTIN: What role can coaching play in helping faculty and staff make more 365 00:24:49,659 --> 00:24:55,429 sustainable decisions about their time, their energy, their professional identity? 366 00:24:55,449 --> 00:24:59,270 How they can make decisions that will pay off for them in their own 367 00:24:59,270 --> 00:25:01,029 satisfaction for years to come. 368 00:25:01,389 --> 00:25:03,130 SUSAN: Yeah, thank you for that question. 369 00:25:03,220 --> 00:25:08,389 I think it's been really interesting to me over the past few years of working 370

00:25:08,389 --> 00:25:15,219 with colleagues how much it matters to have someone give you their undivided 371 00:25:15,360 --> 00:25:22,079 attention and presence for a number of hours as your coaching series evolves. 372 00:25:22,879 --> 00:25:29,610 Even when I was feeling very sensitive about my own development coming out of 373 00:25:29,610 --> 00:25:35,329 training as a coach, I would be very conscious of where I had not asked the 374 00:25:35,329 --> 00:25:41,619 best question or had fallen through the cracks of where the conversation might 375 00:25:41,629 --> 00:25:46,259 have gone and yet there was no question by the end of the conversation that 376 00:25:46,309 --> 00:25:52,289 the person was just so pleased to have had the chance to talk and have someone 377 00:25:52,300 --> 00:25:57,590 really listen to them carefully, and how desperately people needed that, 378 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:04,049 [LAUGHTER] and so I would say that the sustainable decision making is partly 379 00:26:04,360 --> 00:26:10,139 an outcome of having made the choice to invest time and energy in a coaching 380 00:26:10,139 --> 00:26:14,850 relationship, like you've already taken the first most important step, which 381 00:26:14,850 --> 00:26:21,209 is to say, I am going to carve out some time, which, as we know, time is maybe 382 00:26:21,229 --> 00:26:25,719 the most precious resource that most academics have, we're not in it for 383 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:28,719 the money, but we sure do spend time. 384 00:26:29,050 --> 00:26:35,760 So, if you've decided I'm going to intentionally dedicate an hour on several 385 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:42,750 occasions to talk through an important issue for me, then you've already kind 386 00:26:42,750 --> 00:26:47,370 of signalled to yourself that this is something you're prepared to sustain 387 00:26:47,370 --> 00:26:52,250 and be committed to, and as Kitty was saying earlier, the accountability that 388 00:26:52,250 --> 00:26:56,969 coaching provides is one of the really important things that we practice in 389 00:26:56,969 --> 00:27:02,460 between each session, and that ultimately by the time we reach the point where 390 00:27:02,460 --> 00:27:07,649 we're ready to at least temporarily bring that series to a close, t he 391 00:27:07,730 --> 00:27:12,370 person needs to have identified what their own accountability practice is 392 00:27:12,370 --> 00:27:18,220 going to involve, and so there's a sustainability priority that's kind of 393 00:27:18,230 --> 00:27:21,589 built into the coaching conversation. 394 00:27:21,939 --> 00:27:25,299 KRISTIN: I can imagine that some people who have not experienced coaching 395 00:27:25,299 --> 00:27:29,550 may listen to this and may think, but I have a very supportive colleague 396 00:27:29,980 --> 00:27:34,719 or partner or friend that I have these kinds of conversations with. 397 00:27:35,250 --> 00:27:38,579 What do you see as different in the coaching relationship than a great 398 00:27:38,590 --> 00:27:41,000 supportive personal relationship? 399 00:27:41,439 --> 00:27:44,530 SUSAN: That's a great question, and it's a question that I asked myself 400 00:27:44,530 --> 00:27:48,530 when I was starting the training, because I thought, “Well, you know, I 401 00:27:48,530 --> 00:27:53,460 have decent conversational skills. How hard can this be?” And then I realized 402 00:27:53,559 --> 00:27:58,539 that it's actually incredibly hard, because coaching conversations do 403 00:27:58,540 --> 00:28:01,909 not follow normal social turn taking. 404 00:28:02,139 --> 00:28:08,510 You, the coach, are not an equal, like, interlocutor in that relationship. 405 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:14,399 The client should be doing way more talking and way more thinking, and you 406 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:17,309 are posing powerful questions for them. 407 00:28:17,689 --> 00:28:24,619 And so it is not a normal conversation, [LAUGHTER] and it's hard to develop 408 00:28:25,180 --> 00:28:32,030 the skill to sort of be quiet and make space for their thinking to emerge. 409 00:28:32,030 --> 00:28:37,799 Sometimes there's long silences while you're allowing people to process their 410 00:28:37,799 --> 00:28:43,499 thinking, and that's not the typical friend or colleague kind of conversation. 411 00:28:43,909 --> 00:28:47,090 KITTY: And coaching sessions are actually very highly structured. 412 00:28:47,479 --> 00:28:53,360 We follow a pretty standard structure of every coaching conversation, so in 413 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:57,169 that sense, as well, it's different than having a good supportive friend or 414 00:28:57,169 --> 00:28:59,009 colleague, although we all need that too. 415 00:28:59,020 --> 00:29:02,879 So I certainly don't want to say that those conversations are not incredibly 416 00:29:02,889 --> 00:29:08,109 valuable, but I would say in my own experience, when I'm having a conversation 417 00:29:08,110 --> 00:29:12,699 with a colleague or friend, a lot of that is about getting advice, specific advice 418 00:29:12,699 --> 00:29:16,809 from people, which is also incredibly helpful, but coaches aren't going to 419 00:29:16,809 --> 00:29:20,930 give you that advice, they're going to draw out your own advice for yourself. 420 00:29:21,190 --> 00:29:25,009 One of my favorite coaching questions is something that Katie Linder taught us, 421 00:29:25,009 --> 00:29:28,989 which is a lot of times clients come to you and they actually expect to be getting 422 00:29:28,989 --> 00:29:34,210 advice from you, and so that's something that we sort of have to prime with our 423 00:29:34,210 --> 00:29:38,719 clients, is that we're not going to be giving you specific advice, because that's 424 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:43,550 something we're going to trust you to find yourself, but when somebody does come to 425 00:29:43,550 --> 00:29:47,840 you and they really want advice, Katie's question is, “What would you like me to 426 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:51,939 give you

permission to do?” because it turns it back on them again to say, “Hey, 427 00:29:51,969 --> 00:29:55,399 what do you really want to do, what are you looking for me to say to you that you 428 00:29:55,399 --> 00:29:59,159 want to do yourself?” which I think is a very clever question, and it's really 429 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:02,899 fun to ask it, [LAUGHTER] it's really fun to see what kind of answers you get. 430 00:30:03,109 --> 00:30:06,110 KRISTIN: And I'll add, too, that having a separate relationship, a 431 00:30:06,110 --> 00:30:10,619 coaching relationship, you don't have to worry if I say this thing, how is 432 00:30:10,619 --> 00:30:15,239 my friend going to judge me, or if I say I want to do this, am I ready to 433 00:30:15,239 --> 00:30:17,000 talk about this piece with my partner? 434 00:30:17,450 --> 00:30:21,649 There's other complexities in our long-term personal relationships that 435 00:30:21,669 --> 00:30:25,040 in a coaching relationship you don't have to worry about how are they 436 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:28,030 going to change how they see me or what is the impact of this going to 437 00:30:28,039 --> 00:30:32,859 be, where there's a reciprocal kind of emotional care where you're trying 438 00:30:32,860 --> 00:30:34,590 to take care of the other person. 439 00:30:34,590 --> 00:30:38,829 Coaching gives people an opportunity to not have to care about [LAUGHTER] 440 00:30:38,829 --> 00:30:41,909 not in the same way, to not to take care of the other person, that 441 00:30:41,910 --> 00:30:46,249 that's the time for them to think about how to care for themselves. 442 00:30:46,500 --> 00:30:47,829 KITTY: That's an incredible point. 443 00:30:47,869 --> 00:30:52,269 I think it's really, really important, and gets us back to some of the principles 444 00:30:52,269 --> 00:30:54,990 of coaching, where we are confidential. 445 00:30:55,529 --> 00:31:00,159 It's really our relationship with our clients, it is 100% between us, it 446 00:31:00,159 --> 00:31:05,019 never leaves that conversation unless it's some professional obligation, 447 00:31:05,019 --> 00:31:08,140 because someone is expressing harm or something like that, but otherwise 448 00:31:08,159 --> 00:31:12,679 it is absolutely confidential, and so people can try on things that they 449 00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:16,269 might not feel comfortable trying on with a colleague or a partner. 450 00:31:16,820 --> 00:31:20,850 JOHN: It sounds a lot like psychological counseling in many ways, doesn't it? 451 00:31:21,029 --> 00:31:23,439 KRISTIN: In just certainly non-directive approaches, there 452 00:31:23,439 --> 00:31:26,669 are similarities, and many of the roots come from the same roots. 453 00:31:26,949 --> 00:31:29,579 JOHN: One of the things you address in the book is how coaching needs 454 00:31:29,629 --> 00:31:32,480 will be different for different people at different stages of the 455 00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:33,890 career and in different roles. 456 00:31:34,290 --> 00:31:39,049 How might coaching needs differ for early career faculty, mid-career faculty, 457 00:31:39,159 --> 00:31:42,060 senior faculty, chairs, and staff leaders? 458 00:31:42,239 --> 00:31:46,130 KITTY: I would say in many ways the coaching approach doesn't change 459 00:31:46,149 --> 00:31:50,309 much with all of these audiences, because our practices are similar. 460 00:31:50,309 --> 00:31:54,229 We are going to ask powerful questions, we're going to be listening deeply in 461 00:31:54,229 --> 00:31:58,910 a way that empowers the individuals we work with, but coaches often develop 462 00:31:58,949 --> 00:32:04,149 expertise in a particular area, depending on where they're working and the spaces 463 00:32:04,149 --> 00:32:09,750 they're working in, and when that happens, coaches tend to see similar issues 464 00:32:09,750 --> 00:32:14,589 come up, so they become more skilled at asking the right question at the right 465 00:32:14,599 --> 00:32:18,679 time, or understanding a particular tool is going to be really useful for 466 00:32:18,679 --> 00:32:20,659 somebody in a particular career phase. 467 00:32:20,879 --> 00:32:25,579 So to your question, John, it's not unusual, for example, when I encounter 468 00:32:25,580 --> 00:32:29,919 people in their early career to be struggling with finding mentors or 469 00:32:30,309 --> 00:32:33,639 to be trying to figure out what kind of workflows are going to actually be 470 00:32:33,649 --> 00:32:37,699 effective for them as they're juggling all of the new things that they may have 471 00:32:37,699 --> 00:32:40,060 not had to juggle in graduate school. 472 00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:42,440 On the other hand, someone who's a little bit more advanced in their 473 00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:46,080 career might be thinking about legacy or thinking about retirement. 474 00:32:46,620 --> 00:32:50,470 Someone in mid-career might be just getting tenure and trying to figure 475 00:32:50,470 --> 00:32:53,489 out what's next for them after they've jumped all these hurdles and they 476 00:32:53,490 --> 00:32:56,730 finally come to the end of the hurdles and are looking ahead and saying, 477 00:32:56,730 --> 00:33:00,330 “Well, what do I do now?” So, really, I think a general coaching approach 478 00:33:00,330 --> 00:33:03,309 can help with any of those concerns, but a coach with a background in 479 00:33:03,309 --> 00:33:07,719 those areas is likely to have the tools to address a particular need. 480 00:33:08,029 --> 00:33:10,870 And so, one of the nice things about our volume is it has some great 481 00:33:10,870 --> 00:33:14,269 chapters to help both coaches and those who are kind of going through 482 00:33:14,270 --> 00:33:15,510 those different career phases. 483 00:33:17,209 --> 00:33:22,310 KRISTIN: How can coaches help faculty and staff navigate conflicts between their 484 00:33:22,379 --> 00:33:28,580 own goals, values, and commitments and institutional pressures, particularly 485 00:33:28,610 --> 00:33:32,769

in settings where coaching may be available within the institution. 486 00:33:32,989 --> 00:33:36,839 SUSAN: This is a really important question, and it's one that touches 487 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:41,839 on some things we've already mentioned having to do with ethical commitments. 488 00:33:42,099 --> 00:33:48,119 The International Coaching Federation, in fact, requires an ethics training as 489 00:33:48,129 --> 00:33:52,629 part of the credentialing process and re-credentialing process, and so for 490 00:33:52,650 --> 00:33:57,789 internal coaches this is particularly important, and as Kitty mentioned, the 491 00:33:57,790 --> 00:34:03,429 confidentiality piece is primary, but the other thing that kind of surprised 492 00:34:03,489 --> 00:34:09,840 me when I first started the training and remains really important to my sense of 493 00:34:10,279 --> 00:34:15,929 the value of doing this in higher ed is that the coach's primary responsibility 494 00:34:15,939 --> 00:34:19,040 is with the client, not the institution. 495 00:34:19,509 --> 00:34:24,410 And so, I was really kind of shocked when I asked the question in my training: 496 00:34:24,410 --> 00:34:26,480 “Well, what if the person wants to quit? 497 00:34:26,570 --> 00:34:31,989 Then what do you do?” And the response was, “Well, then you need to explore that 498 00:34:31,989 --> 00:34:38,259 with them.” This is not a place where your job is to make sure that they stay 499 00:34:38,329 --> 00:34:40,290 with the institution, no matter what. 500 00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:46,389 You're helping them think through a very difficult professional crossroads, 501 00:34:46,789 --> 00:34:52,480 and so if maintaining their affiliation with the institution is really a 502 00:34:52,500 --> 00:34:57,029 valuable and meaningful priority for that client, then okay, we know 503 00:34:57,029 --> 00:34:59,149 that that's one of our anchors. 504 00:34:59,149 --> 00:35:02,380 We're going to have to figure out how to manage this conflict in other 505 00:35:02,380 --> 00:35:07,469 ways, but if the conflict turns out to be more significant than staying 506 00:35:07,479 --> 00:35:13,100 in that job or role, then the job of the coaching partnership is to think 507 00:35:13,100 --> 00:35:15,429 about how to manage this transition. 508 00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:16,779 What would be a better fit? 509 00:35:16,809 --> 00:35:21,339 What does that look like, how are you thinking about that, and so there's a 510 00:35:21,339 --> 00:35:29,369 great chapter in the book, in particular by Chinasa Elue, that is about coaching. 511 00:35:29,559 --> 00:35:31,149 Well, let's see, what does she call it? 512 00:35:31,389 --> 00:35:32,589 KITTY: Walking the tightrope… 513 00:35:32,599 --> 00:35:35,890 SUSAN: Walking the tightrope: Coaching faculty clients who 514 00:35:35,890 --> 00:35:37,720 decide to leave the university. 515 00:35:38,390 --> 00:35:43,370 KRISTIN: And as a Dean, I will say that if someone talks with me, and there 516 00:35:43,370 --> 00:35:47,300 are faculty and staff who talk with me about their quandaries about whether 517 00:35:47,300 --> 00:35:51,829 they should stay or go, I actually see my role in a very similar way. 518 00:35:51,870 --> 00:35:53,220 I want them to be thriving. 519 00:35:53,220 --> 00:35:56,249 If they're thriving here, it's good for the institution, but if they're 520 00:35:56,250 --> 00:36:00,050 not thriving, it's not good for them, and it's not good for the institution, 521 00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:00,909 SUSAN: That's right, 522 00:36:01,090 --> 00:36:03,429 KRISTIN: But that's a very different conversation, certainly, 523 00:36:03,439 --> 00:36:04,619 than it would be with a coach. 524 00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:11,069 SUSAN: It is, and I have noticed that it's particularly difficult and regrettable 525 00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:17,570 that the system of tenure makes many people feel that there is no possible 526 00:36:17,570 --> 00:36:19,289 way for them to walk away from this. 527 00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:22,410 They grabbed the gold ring, and so, boy, they better stay. 528 00:36:22,559 --> 00:36:24,370 And so it's a life crisis. 529 00:36:24,990 --> 00:36:31,440 [LAUGHTER] And so coaching is a really wonderful tool to have to be able 530 00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:33,609 to work through that kind of crisis. 531 00:36:34,109 --> 00:36:36,949 JOHN: So, who should be trained in coaching skills? 532 00:36:37,139 --> 00:36:41,649 Clearly, from the main theme of the book, teaching center staff should be, but might 533 00:36:41,650 --> 00:36:46,090 this also be appropriate for chairs and deans and student affairs professionals 534 00:36:46,119 --> 00:36:51,079 and supervisors and peer mentors, and might it even be helpful for faculty, 535 00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:56,339 because our relationship with students is also a coaching relationship in many ways. 536 00:36:56,519 --> 00:36:59,209 KITTY: Yeah, I would say absolutely to all of those things. 537 00:36:59,369 --> 00:37:03,630 I think coaching skills are really helpful for anyone, and in particular, 538 00:37:03,759 --> 00:37:07,549 anyone in a type of role where you're being asked to mentor or 539 00:37:07,549 --> 00:37:09,719 support or guide others in some way. 540 00:37:10,029 --> 00:37:13,690 I think one of the biggest revelations for me during my coach training was the 541 00:37:13,699 --> 00:37:17,599 breadth of occasions where I found deep listening and powerful questions to 542 00:37:17,599 --> 00:37:22,229 come in handy, not just professionally, but even personally, in some moments. 543 00:37:22,389 --> 00:37:27,359 So, I think when I think of faculty members, John, as you noted, working 544 00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:31,879 with students, coaching skills can be so helpful, or if you're doing advising with 545 00:37:31,889 --> 00:37:35,879 students in any way, but I'd also say with colleagues, I think one of the things 546 00:37:35,879 --> 00:37:41,379 that I have experienced myself as a

former faculty member is we're not always good 547 00:37:41,379 --> 00:37:44,969 at talking to each other, we're not always good at listening to each other, we're not 548 00:37:45,009 --> 00:37:48,849 always good at asking the right questions of each other, and so those skills can 549 00:37:48,959 --> 00:37:50,849 be applied in all sorts of contexts. 550 00:37:51,679 --> 00:37:54,430 KRISTIN: What mistakes should campuses avoid when they first 551 00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:55,799 try to introduce coaching? 552 00:37:56,690 --> 00:38:00,359 SUSAN: In the beginning of the book, we have a couple of chapters. 553 00:38:00,399 --> 00:38:06,489 These are Katie's on how to seek out certified training programs, 554 00:38:06,679 --> 00:38:10,070 what questions to ask, what are all of the options you might 555 00:38:10,070 --> 00:38:12,079 consider, and for what reasons. 556 00:38:12,379 --> 00:38:13,919 But training is key. 557 00:38:14,229 --> 00:38:19,389 So I hope that our book is an important contribution to people who 558 00:38:19,389 --> 00:38:23,960 are at the coaching curious stage, but I wouldn't want someone to read 559 00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:29,800 our book and then decide, okay, we're ready, [LAUGHTER] let's do it. 560 00:38:29,929 --> 00:38:35,650 There's some very important standards that we want coaching professionals to be 561 00:38:35,650 --> 00:38:43,680 able to meet and uphold, and institutions can also look into outsourcing, just like 562 00:38:43,750 --> 00:38:45,880 with any other professional development. 563 00:38:46,330 --> 00:38:50,700 The imperative to develop your own internal coaches doesn't have to be where 564 00:38:50,700 --> 00:38:57,119 you start, and in the corporate sector, executive coaching has been a thing for 565 00:38:57,119 --> 00:39:02,519 a long time, and I think upper-level administrative leaders get a little 566 00:39:02,529 --> 00:39:08,629 bit of that because they fall into that kind of executive identity, but what 567 00:39:08,630 --> 00:39:16,059 we're really hoping to do is democratize this resource, and so where deans or 568 00:39:16,209 --> 00:39:23,109 provosts or others who have control of institutional budgets might be interested 569 00:39:23,209 --> 00:39:29,029 in whether coaching could be a useful way to help people who could benefit. 570 00:39:29,209 --> 00:39:31,229 I think there are other places to begin. 571 00:39:31,509 --> 00:39:36,500 KRISTIN: Yeah, I think the influence of kind of corporate leadership coaching 572 00:39:36,509 --> 00:39:43,099 has been a positive in many ways, because people see it, they see the value, 573 00:39:43,099 --> 00:39:47,099 they think, “Well, if that's something that is a given in those settings, and 574 00:39:47,099 --> 00:39:51,059 people will pay a lot of money for it in those settings, that it must have 575 00:39:51,070 --> 00:39:56,569 actual value.” So that people who are not responsive to the research foundation 576 00:39:56,570 --> 00:40:01,839 may be responsive to that argument. Instead, I think the first time I hired 577 00:40:01,839 --> 00:40:06,179 a coach for someone was 15 years ago, saying, "Look, you have great leadership 578 00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:11,029 capacity and skill, but it's not something that you're able to bring out. 579 00:40:11,369 --> 00:40:13,599 Let's see if a coach can help bring that out.” 580 00:40:13,949 --> 00:40:17,659 SUSAN: Oh, thank you for saying that, Kristin, and if I could just add something 581 00:40:17,659 --> 00:40:24,300 else about ways we would prefer not to see coaching implemented is as remediation. 582 00:40:24,769 --> 00:40:29,559 Your impulse was to see someone who has great leadership potential, because 583 00:40:29,579 --> 00:40:34,629 coaching is about where are you now and where do you want to go, and I would 584 00:40:34,629 --> 00:40:41,479 love to h ear more from you about how you see therapy and counseling as distinct 585 00:40:41,649 --> 00:40:46,409 from that kind of orientation, because my understanding, or the way that I 586 00:40:46,629 --> 00:40:52,460 explain it to my clients, is that if we get to a place where you seem unable 587 00:40:52,460 --> 00:40:58,019 to move past something that happened to you in the past or some conflict you 588 00:40:58,020 --> 00:41:02,409 had with someone in the past, and we just keep being drawn back to this issue 589 00:41:02,419 --> 00:41:07,519 that clearly needs to be resolved or healed in some way, then I'm going to 590 00:41:07,519 --> 00:41:12,799 make a referral to you to a professional counselor, a professional therapist. 591 00:41:12,970 --> 00:41:18,689 A coach should be trained to recognize when referrals are the appropriate action. 592 00:41:18,899 --> 00:41:22,480 KRISTIN: Absolutely, absolutely, and of course it depends on 593 00:41:22,489 --> 00:41:24,200 the therapeutic approach. 594 00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:29,039 Some therapeutic approaches focus more on skill building as well, or someone may 595 00:41:29,039 --> 00:41:34,050 not have developed the skills that they need to really thrive in interpersonal 596 00:41:34,050 --> 00:41:38,430 relationships, for example, or they may have significant substance abuse 597 00:41:38,430 --> 00:41:43,290 backgrounds, or there may be all kinds of things going on, and a great therapist is 598 00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:49,079 tooled to be able to handle complexity and to be able to recognize how those complex 599 00:41:49,109 --> 00:41:54,299 pieces act together and help somebody move forward in their lives and their goals. 600 00:41:54,619 --> 00:41:58,039 I certainly would think that the ultimate goal is very similar. 601 00:41:58,490 --> 00:42:03,910 We're all trying to help people in education as well identify the things that 602 00:42:04,219 --> 00:42:10,700 they see as really valuable in their lives and the capacities that they can see that 603 00:42:10,709 --> 00:42:17,999 they have to live a meaningful and joyful life, that is our goal across

the board. 604 00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:20,940 I'm sure that is the goal of many of our faculty as well, with the 605 00:42:20,940 --> 00:42:22,129 students that they work with. 606 00:42:22,219 --> 00:42:25,100 We just take a somewhat different approach in doing so. 607 00:42:25,529 --> 00:42:29,209 I'm also thinking that listeners may have one other question. 608 00:42:29,459 --> 00:42:33,670 You may have gotten them really excited, so can I ask the question, if someone 609 00:42:33,670 --> 00:42:39,559 is looking for a good coach, what might you suggest in how they could find one. 610 00:42:40,209 --> 00:42:44,530 KITTY: Well, I would say one thing to know about coaches is that most of them 611 00:42:44,659 --> 00:42:51,199 do a free half an hour consult with their coaching practice, so there's nothing 612 00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:57,389 lost if you find someone who looks interesting to you, and you just want to 613 00:42:57,400 --> 00:43:01,720 have a conversation to see if you vibe with that person and their approach. 614 00:43:02,159 --> 00:43:03,929 In terms of finding a coach. 615 00:43:04,339 --> 00:43:09,219 I would look for someone who has an ICF credential personally, just because 616 00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:13,269 having gone through that training, I know that it's quite rigorous and quite 617 00:43:13,269 --> 00:43:17,529 demanding, and the people there have been trained quite a bit with ethics, 618 00:43:17,549 --> 00:43:20,699 and they're trained to recognize the difference between therapy and coaching, 619 00:43:20,699 --> 00:43:22,229 and know where their limits are. 620 00:43:22,729 --> 00:43:24,910 So, I would definitely look for that as well. 621 00:43:25,389 --> 00:43:28,939 And I might just ask around a little bit to see if anybody you 622 00:43:28,939 --> 00:43:30,709 know has had a great experience. 623 00:43:30,709 --> 00:43:34,839 I know that's how I found my career coach that I had back in the day, that 624 00:43:34,839 --> 00:43:37,719 I had a really excellent experience with, which was one of the things that 625 00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:39,319 got me into coaching in the first place. 626 00:43:39,369 --> 00:43:43,080 So, Susan may have some better advice than I do on that one. 627 00:43:43,279 --> 00:43:46,360 SUSAN: No, I think you answered that really nicely. 628 00:43:46,539 --> 00:43:54,429 There is, I believe, a coach finder tool on the ICF website that would be the whole 629 00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:59,389 breadth of coaches all over the globe, so that may be a deeper dive [LAUGHTER] than 630 00:43:59,389 --> 00:44:01,229 you'd want to do right at the beginning. 631 00:44:01,660 --> 00:44:07,319 KRISTIN: And I'll also double down on a short consult session is a great idea. 632 00:44:07,509 --> 00:44:10,599 Sometimes people just don't jive, and it's no reflection. 633 00:44:10,599 --> 00:44:14,609 The coach may be a fabulous coach, it doesn't mean that the person requesting 634 00:44:14,610 --> 00:44:17,709 coaching is all screwed up because they didn't jive with this coach. 635 00:44:17,709 --> 00:44:21,319 Sometimes there's just not a connection, and it's not a reflection on either 636 00:44:21,319 --> 00:44:24,859 person, but it's worth that first conversation to say, "You know, this just 637 00:44:24,860 --> 00:44:29,120 didn't seem to go. I'm going to just try again,” because having a good connection 638 00:44:29,129 --> 00:44:30,830 can provide a really good foundation. 639 00:44:31,170 --> 00:44:31,729 SUSAN: That's right. 640 00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:34,890 And coaches are typically very generous. 641 00:44:35,060 --> 00:44:41,819 I have also had other coaches make referrals to people who might be 642 00:44:41,830 --> 00:44:45,669 better suited, for example, when I was seeking out mentor coaches 643 00:44:45,780 --> 00:44:49,629 for my re-accreditation, and I appreciated that generosity. 644 00:44:50,369 --> 00:44:53,449 KRISTIN: Tell us about your experience of writing the book. 645 00:44:54,189 --> 00:45:00,130 SUSAN: I would really like to praise our contributors to this volume, not 646 00:45:00,139 --> 00:45:08,239 least of which for being the most organized, well-managed time writers 647 00:45:08,299 --> 00:45:13,050 that I think have ever existed in a co-edited collection of this size. 648 00:45:13,139 --> 00:45:20,980 It was such an interesting experience to work with people who all sort of work with 649 00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:26,220 other people about time management issues and writing, because they were on it. 650 00:45:26,489 --> 00:45:33,469 No one had to be repeatedly nudged into getting their submission in. 651 00:45:33,509 --> 00:45:39,699 It was a really smooth process, and it was such an enjoyable experience to work with 652 00:45:39,729 --> 00:45:46,929 Kitty and Katie and Karen, because four people is a nice group as a editing team. 653 00:45:47,019 --> 00:45:52,909 When one of us had a life got in the way of being able to keep our balls rolling, 654 00:45:52,919 --> 00:45:57,779 the other three people would always pick up the slack, and so I think we were 655 00:45:57,779 --> 00:46:04,200 able to make incredibly smooth progress on getting this book to the press. 656 00:46:04,650 --> 00:46:07,429 JOHN: We always end with a question, what's next? 657 00:46:08,209 --> 00:46:12,849 SUSAN: I am actually heading full force into this coaching world. 658 00:46:13,019 --> 00:46:17,599 As of this summer, I'll be leaving my role as a director of Center for Teaching 659 00:46:17,599 --> 00:46:22,909 and Learning to focus on coaching for individuals and for organizations, in 660 00:46:22,909 --> 00:46:28,299 addition to the speaking engagements and workshop facilitating that I have 661 00:46:28,299 --> 00:46:33,019 been so honored to do with a number of universities, my focus on active 662 00:46:33,019 --> 00:46:37,699 and embodied learning and my coaching practice specifically offers an 663 00:46:37,699 --> 00:46:43,950 embodied approach, because I

like to conduct outdoor audio only sessions, 664 00:46:44,020 --> 00:46:50,109 in which clients can be walking or enjoying some fresh air to develop new 665 00:46:50,129 --> 00:46:52,519 perspectives and spending time outside. 666 00:46:52,849 --> 00:46:53,589 KRISTIN: Excellent. 667 00:46:54,039 --> 00:46:59,199 KITTY: And for me, I'm sort of in the midst of a lot of reflection 668 00:46:59,199 --> 00:47:03,719 and planning for the academic year here at the University of Richmond. 669 00:47:04,259 --> 00:47:09,799 So, I've been particularly busy thinking about ways to 670 00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:11,479 support folks in our mid-career. 671 00:47:11,750 --> 00:47:16,890 We revamped our early career support programs with the Provost Office last 672 00:47:16,890 --> 00:47:21,709 year, and this year we're starting to focus on mid-career folks, so really 673 00:47:21,729 --> 00:47:27,049 post-tenure, or for those not in a tenure-line position, more advanced 674 00:47:27,099 --> 00:47:34,830 teaching associates, and so I last year did a group coaching with the Associated 675 00:47:34,830 --> 00:47:39,060 Colleges of the South across all the schools of that consortium, and we're 676 00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:42,149 going to do one here at UR next year. 677 00:47:42,150 --> 00:47:45,520 So, I've been working a lot on that and thinking about group coaching 678 00:47:45,549 --> 00:47:49,339 and how we can apply that more effectively in my institution. 679 00:47:50,299 --> 00:47:51,480 KRISTIN: Sounds so interesting. 680 00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:52,779 JOHN: Thank you both. 681 00:47:53,010 --> 00:47:56,920 It's great talking to you again, Susan, and it's nice meeting you, Kitty. 682 00:47:57,049 --> 00:47:59,299 I really enjoyed reading through your book. 683 00:47:59,299 --> 00:48:01,589 It's a really nice collection of resources. 684 00:48:02,189 --> 00:48:03,099 KITTY: It's been a pleasure. 685 00:48:03,829 --> 00:48:04,920 SUSAN: Well, thank you. 686 00:48:05,459 --> 00:48:09,510 Been great to be featured on Tea for Teaching, because it's a little 687 00:48:09,540 --> 00:48:14,230 outside of the normal topics, and so we're so happy to spread the word. 688 00:48:14,529 --> 00:48:17,759 KITTY: And I've been a fan of Tea for Teaching forever, so it's so exciting 689 00:48:17,779 --> 00:48:19,850 to finally make it on the show. 690 00:48:19,860 --> 00:48:19,920 [LAUGHTER] 691 00:48:21,539 --> 00:48:24,299 KRISTIN: Well, I would love to hear about the group coaching and how 692 00:48:24,299 --> 00:48:26,779 that goes, [LAUGHTER] but that's just putting in a listener request. 693 00:48:28,430 --> 00:48:28,480 [LAUGHTER] 694 00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:36,100 [MUSIC] 695 00:48:38,489 --> 00:48:41,249 JOHN: If you've enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe and 696 00:48:41,250 --> 00:48:45,289 leave a review on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast service. 697 00:48:45,849 --> 00:48:50,390 To continue the conversation, join us on our Tea for Teaching Facebook page. 698 00:48:51,339 --> 00:48:53,959 REBECCA: You can find show notes, transcripts and other 699 00:48:53,959 --> 00:48:56,289 materials on teaforteaching.com. 700 00:48:57,320 --> 00:48:59,289 Music by Michael Gary Brewer. 701 00:48:59,290 --> 00:49:03,290 [MUSIC]