התמלול המלא של Episode 189: Exploring Existence Through Pain, Willingness, and Opportunity (featuring Kathleen Kilcup)

Oklahoma City. 00:02:57.280 --> 00:03:01.039 She is the author of Between the Light and Me, a memoir of beauty and violence. 00:03:01.199 --> 00:03:04.159 You can learn more about Kathleen in the podcast notes. 00:03:04.800 --> 00:03:15.759 Before we get into today's episode, Talking Addiction Recovery is now an improved continuing education provider through IPGGC, NASW Wisconsin Chapter, and NADAC. 00:03:16.000 --> 00:03:22.080 Meaning professionals can earn CEUs just by listening to select episodes and completing a short post test. 00:03:22.400 --> 00:03:27.520 No conference, no webinar registration, no membership, no paid platform. 00:03:27.680 --> 00:03:31.280 Just the content you're already consuming, working for your professional development. 00:03:31.520 --> 00:03:35.919 Head over to www.andrewjsre.com for everything you need. 00:03:36.080 --> 00:03:38.080 Alright, let's get into Kathleen's episode. 00:03:38.319 --> 00:03:43.120 On this episode of Talking Addiction and Recovery Podcast, I want to welcome Kathleen Kilcuff. 00:03:43.280 --> 00:03:44.400 Thanks so much for being here. 00:03:44.719 --> 00:03:46.560 Thank you so much for having me on. 00:03:47.039 --> 00:03:51.439 We're going to talk about your book, Between the Light and Me, a memoir of beauty and violence. 00:03:51.599 --> 00:03:56.080 And I'm really excited to talk to you about the book and everything that I took away from it. 00:03:56.240 --> 00:04:00.719 But before we do, can you give listeners just a little bit of a background about yourself? 00:04:01.360 --> 00:04:01.759 Sure. 00:04:06.400 --> 00:04:14.719 And I have lived all over the country and served five years in the US military as a linguist. 00:04:15.199 --> 00:04:20.160 And am now mostly a mom to two little boys. 00:04:20.720 --> 00:04:26.160 But I wrote this book when my youngest son was one. 00:04:26.959 --> 00:04:30.480 Well, during his naps and late into the night. 00:04:30.720 --> 00:04:34.480 And I'm just I'm thrilled to have a chance to talk about it with you. 00:04:34.959 --> 00:04:37.199 Yeah, the book was incredible. 00:04:37.360 --> 00:04:44.720 You know, in you mention a poet, which you you the the way it is written is so poetic. 00:04:44.800 --> 00:04:48.399 You even reference poetry, you reference art in many ways. 00:04:48.480 --> 00:04:50.879 And then you say an um, is it essayist? 00:04:50.959 --> 00:04:55.680 Is that also what you uh can you refer to that, what that is? 00:04:55.759 --> 00:04:56.720 Because I don't know what that is. 00:04:56.800 --> 00:05:03.279 I'm not sure if you know listeners are aware, but I how is that different than other writing or poetry? 00:05:03.759 --> 00:05:05.439 Well, I write essays. 00:05:06.079 --> 00:05:14.240 And uh so yeah, I like to write lyric, kind of first-person essays exploring different kinds of topics. 00:05:14.399 --> 00:05:31.600 A lot of them have to do with recovery, um, or just what I think of as kind of the primary problem that human beings are

faced with, which is how to obtain a real relationship, a functional relationship with reality. 00:05:31.839 --> 00:05:33.600 So I write a lot about that. 00:05:34.800 --> 00:05:36.160 Yeah, that's amazing. 00:05:36.319 --> 00:05:40.240 And your your book has so much uh amazing references. 00:05:40.399 --> 00:05:44.800 You even talk about where where this came from uh as well. 00:05:44.959 --> 00:05:55.279 I wanted to ask you, there's a I don't know if this came in the recovery world for addiction, but there's this this saying that is well known that wherever you go, there you are. 00:05:56.000 --> 00:06:07.439 And when I read your book, I could not help but think about that because as I read your book, it was basically the chapters were divided up based on where you were. 00:06:07.759 --> 00:06:25.600 Like you talked about all the places that you've been and that you were at during the time, and it got me to think we often talk about this in the addiction space where, well, you can't hide from your addiction, you can't just move away and do all that. 00:06:25.759 --> 00:06:33.600 But yet in other places in life, we talk so much about well, you gotta go out there and explore, you gotta go out there and discover. 00:06:33.680 --> 00:06:40.959 But if you have an addiction, it's almost seemed like as you're avoiding, you're you're you're you're trying to run away from your problems. 00:06:41.360 --> 00:06:47.680 I'm curious when I say that, you know, wherever you go, there you are. 00:06:47.839 --> 00:06:56.319 And as you wrote in your book about the different places you've been and lived in your experiences, where's some of the truth to that? 00:06:56.480 --> 00:07:00.720 Where's also some of the misleading parts of that saying? 00:07:01.040 --> 00:07:17.519 Because you were going to so many different places, and yet I imagine it wasn't always about escaping or or not experiencing, but at the same time, that there was a lot of things going on that may have been, I need to get out of here or go somewhere else. 00:07:17.680 --> 00:07:18.480 Where am I with that? 00:07:18.560 --> 00:07:22.879 I'm curious your thoughts based on how you divide up the chapters. 00:07:23.439 --> 00:07:25.680 Oh man, that's a great question. 00:07:25.839 --> 00:07:30.399 Um, I actually think I have that line in the book at some point. 00:07:30.480 --> 00:07:36.959 Uh, I say it's a at a point when I had not yet heard those words, but they were still true of me. 00:07:37.360 --> 00:07:43.439 Um, yeah, so I was raised in a family that uh moved constantly. 00:07:43.600 --> 00:07:52.399 I went to 12 schools between Kate, kindergarten, and 12th grade, and um, I think seven states and many houses. 00:07:53.120 --> 00:08:08.319 Um, and one of the things that I don't think anyone ever told me, but that I just intuited was that the next move was going to be the solution to the problems that I faced in the pr in my present condition. 00:08:08.560 --> 00:08:21.920 And so there's always this kind of hope glimmering on the horizon that that somewhere new, a new community, if only I could find the right place, the most beautiful place, the culture that fit me, the people that would fit me. 00:08:22.480 --> 00:08:32.000 Um and then later on as an adult, you know, the educational program that would fit me or the job that would fit me, or sometimes still just the place that would fit me. 00:08:32.240 --> 00:08:36.960 I was looking for a place where I could become myself. 00:08:37.120 --> 00:08:46.720 And I think that's where the the lie enters in and why it's so important for people like me to hear that line, wherever you go, there you are. 00:08:47.120 --> 00:08:54.720 Um because there was no place that could fix me, no group of people different from the people I was presently around. 00:08:54.799 --> 00:09:10.799 What I needed to do was sink into exactly where I was and grow exactly where I was, which and I love the way you um you you made it a little more complex by saying that isn't always true though, is it? 00:09:11.039 --> 00:09:20.879 Um because I also, at least in my own life, and I'm sure this is true for other people, um, there are other reasons to move and there are other reasons to sort of seek adventure. 00:09:21.200 --> 00:09:46.000 And as much as I um did b have that sort of uh almost subconscious belief that I would become myself when I found the right place, I also had a deep hunger for experience, for adventure, for putting myself in um challenging circumstances so that I could learn more about the world and about myself. 00:09:46.159 --> 00:09:52.639 Um and I think that was kind of a a good in some ways that there that wasn't I wasn't running from, I was running towards. 00:09:52.720 --> 00:09:54.399 And maybe that's the difference. 00:09:54.720 --> 00:09:56.159 Um yeah. 00:09:56.559 --> 00:10:09.200 Out of any of the places, yeah, I just I'm just like looking at all these, you know, from you know, Alaska, Utah, Germany, Hawaii, back to Germany, Texas, Oregon. 00:10:09.279 --> 00:10:12.559 Like, does any place stand out more than others? 00:10:12.720 --> 00:10:21.679 Does any place have any stronger tie or connection when you think about the the overall story that you wrote? 00:10:22.639 --> 00:10:25.360 Um in some ways, no. 00:10:25.759 --> 00:10:30.320 Uh partly because I I didn't ever have really a sense of place. 00:10:30.639 --> 00:10:36.559 Um and so my sense my identity was tied less to place and more to people. 00:10:36.720 --> 00:10:42.639 But I did spend the sort of golden years of childhood between the ages of six and eleven in Alaska. 00:10:42.879 --> 00:10:59.200 And I think because of that, I've been I was imprinted by sort of the Alaskan landscape, the sort of rugged Alaskan mentality and that culture, um, maybe more than any other place. 00:11:00.000 --> 00:11:06.960 Uh and I do, I just and I have my whole life just loved wilderness and wild spaces. 00:11:07.039 --> 00:11:20.399 And I think

that childhood where I had a huge like I don't know how many acres it was, but this there was a giant forest at the end of our road with moose and rat rabbits and all kinds of wild creatures down there. 00:11:20.559 --> 00:11:21.919 And that's where I grew up. 00:11:22.000 --> 00:11:25.360 I played in the woods and uh and loved it. 00:11:25.679 --> 00:11:27.759 So maybe I'm maybe I should say Alaska. 00:11:28.000 --> 00:11:28.720 Yeah, Alaska. 00:11:28.879 --> 00:11:40.080 But I think it's a good point you mentioned because even in part of your book, I highlighted if I thought of it at all, home seemed to be a place I'd never been, the sort of thing a person could spend a whole life looking for. 00:11:40.159 --> 00:11:47.600 And I think that captures so much of all these places, the search for a place that may have felt like home. 00:11:48.000 --> 00:11:54.320 And a lot of people can, and I don't even think we talk enough about people who move a lot, and for various reasons. 00:11:54.480 --> 00:12:02.559 Some people move because of um, especially like younger, like kids moving for jobs because parents' jobs are moving because of military. 00:12:02.799 --> 00:12:09.600 I can't tell you how often that comes up when I'm working with someone, and it's like we don't really sit with this a lot. 00:12:09.840 --> 00:12:33.120 We we kind of move on to the what may have happened as a result, or like what was the impact, but we don't always sit with when we hear someone who's moved around and they've had seven schools in one year or five states in two years, like we don't I don't know if everyone's really comfortable having that sit with what that is like. 00:12:33.519 --> 00:12:36.480 Yeah, but that's that's significantly impactful. 00:12:37.360 --> 00:12:38.320 I think so. 00:12:38.639 --> 00:13:05.600 Um yeah, I uh I think that it was inside and like there were some good things about it for me, and that is that I learned pretty early on that people are people wherever you go, and they're good people and like mean people, and nothing really changed, like not only do I not particularly change a lot based on my context, but people are people wherever you go. 00:13:05.679 --> 00:13:11.600 But I think that there's a loss there, um, which is a stable sense of community. 00:13:11.919 --> 00:13:19.279 Being known um and knowing people over a lengthy period of time is such a good. 00:13:19.679 --> 00:13:25.360 Even if I mean I have friends who grew up in small towns and they would tell me it's not always good. 00:13:25.840 --> 00:13:37.840 But I think that there is some something uh about being having your story bound up with other people over a long duration that solidifies a person's sense of self. 00:13:38.240 --> 00:13:39.519 Um yeah. 00:13:40.000 --> 00:13:40.960 Absolutely. 00:13:41.279 --> 00:13:49.759 There's a there's a really great quote that I think when we started talking about substance use and other things, I thought was perfect. 00:13:49.840 --> 00:13:52.159 You said, uh, you think I'm an alcoholic. 00:13:52.399 --> 00:13:53.600 I was sure I wasn't. 00:13:53.759 --> 00:14:00.320 I was sure my problems were much more complicated and deeply rooted and ultimately unsolvable than that. 00:14:00.399 --> 00:14:26.159 And one thing your book did, and I'm curious to hear from you, was you talked about substance use, you talked about like the moving, there was the stuff about, you know, you talked about violence, and you talked about a lot of these things, but but it seemed like none of them ever took center stage as the main thing about what this story talked about. 00:14:26.240 --> 00:14:45.200 Like I imagine you could have gone into more detail or stories about the substance use and stuff, but it was always like these were all parts of your book, like your story, but it was never really what was fully the main character in on stage as what you were trying to represent. 00:14:45.360 --> 00:14:58.080 Versus I read some other books, and it might be like 90% of the the drinking, the drugging, the impact, like just uh and that's how that person chose to write theirs for me. 00:14:58.159 --> 00:15:08.480 It seemed like you wrote about them, but never in the sense that like this is what my story only or fully represents, that it's more than that. 00:15:08.639 --> 00:15:10.080 Am I where am I with that? 00:15:10.240 --> 00:15:12.399 Am I Oh yeah, spot on. 00:15:12.559 --> 00:15:17.679 I mean, one of the things that I've had it trouble with in trying to tell people what the book is about. 00:15:17.840 --> 00:15:24.639 I say, well, it's about addiction in some ways and addiction recovery, but it's not a recovery memoir. 00:15:24.799 --> 00:15:33.039 And it's about my experience as a veteran in the military and then afterwards, but it's not a veteran memoir primarily. 00:15:33.200 --> 00:15:41.519 I wanted to get at something more fundamental than that, something that was sort of what is underneath all of that. 00:15:42.000 --> 00:15:56.799 Not just, you know, I think there are probably 12 million books out there that can describe the effects of alcoholism on a person and their family and their community, and they're all like very good. 00:15:56.960 --> 00:15:58.960 Those are good things to know about. 00:15:59.440 --> 00:16:02.720 Um but my that wasn't my point of interest. 00:16:02.879 --> 00:16:06.720 I wanted to know what is what are sort of the causes and conditions? 00:16:06.799 --> 00:16:13.200 What is what's what does it mean to be a human with this kind of rabid hunger for more? 00:16:13.840 --> 00:16:33.919 Um, which is something I talk about hunger a lot, and not just in the literal sense of like wanting to eat, but this feeling that I went around the world with my mouth wide open, wanting to like you know, experience and have intensity in my life and um also escape my life. 00:16:34.240 --> 00:16:37.600 And that there I was never satisfied, I was always restless. 00:16:37.759 --> 00:16:45.679

Um, that I would and what it so what I was interested in basically is what I said earlier about that relationship with reality. 00:16:46.320 --> 00:16:54.799 Um because I think that that's at the core for me of my experience of addiction is that I had a dysfunctional relationship with reality. 00:16:55.120 --> 00:17:06.240 Um I wanted it to be more than itself or less than itself, and I wanted I wanted myself also to be more or less of whatever I thought needed to be more of less. 00:17:06.640 --> 00:17:09.839 And so I felt that it was I was never at peace. 00:17:11.119 --> 00:17:46.880 And so much of recovery for me has been finding that um sort of place of being grounded in in what is and not avoid and also about myself, you know, being able to see that I'm not who I think I should be most of the time, but not running away from that, not having to create big defensive stories about it, not asking other people to change so that they can accommodate my expectations, but just to sort of have a relationship with reality that's more peaceful and accepting. 00:17:47.440 --> 00:17:49.039 And so anyway, I'm really interested. 00:17:49.119 --> 00:18:12.720 That's like my like intellectually and also emotionally, I'm interested in this, what I think is a broadly human problem and not just a problem with addicts and alcoholics, but this and I actually think that that is what madness or like in mental illness is on some level, is a dysfunctional relationship with reality, however and it manifests in like all of the ways that the DSM describes. 00:18:13.200 --> 00:18:14.079 Yeah, yeah. 00:18:14.240 --> 00:18:44.559 And it almost sounds like the difference of like I'm trying to put this all together because the way you're describing it is not how I've often like heard people even have this conversation, but it's almost like there's like the like existing, like being in an in existence versus like just looking at well, I'm a I'm a human and I I know I'm alive and I'm here, but like also like what does it mean to exist uh among everything else? 00:18:44.720 --> 00:18:57.839 And you're right, you talk about it in the there's a couple of things I highlighted where it was but emptiness poured into emptiness states, nothing I would know more in my sin to drink or starve or binge or lie or to think of only myself would weigh much more. 00:18:57.920 --> 00:19:01.839 Like you referenced this hunger, this this star, this emptiness. 00:19:02.160 --> 00:19:36.559 Would you say you seem to have right now, and I'm curious along the journey, how this balanced out, but right now you seem like you have like a very like trying to reflect for yourself on those questions versus I know a lot of people who they might be wrestling with that same thing, but it's often pointed out by like, well, if this person would change, if this person would just do this, if the world did that, like usually there's a way of looking at that and and pointing fingers, or you know, if this would be different, then everything for me. 00:19:36.640 --> 00:19:51.519 But you seem to have such a very like a mirrored reflection of how you try to ask it or explore it for yourself versus thinking of if other people would change or other things would change. 00:19:51.839 --> 00:19:54.480 Would you say you've kind of always had that? 00:19:54.640 --> 00:20:00.319 Was did that come with part of your recovery from some things or you're living through stuff? 00:20:00.480 --> 00:20:02.480 Uh where is that? 00:20:02.640 --> 00:20:20.160 Because I I find that not everyone may approach it in the way that you kind of talk about it from like uh questioning myself and where I am with this and how do I like that's very sort of looking at myself, which should be a very scary place for people. 00:20:20.480 --> 00:20:28.319 Yeah, I think it's the scariest place, and it's also, you know, no, this is not something that I've always had. 00:20:29.200 --> 00:20:32.079 And I only have it like partially now. 00:20:32.240 --> 00:20:36.960 Um, I still like to blame my husband for like feelings that I have. 00:20:37.200 --> 00:20:39.359 You made me feel sad. 00:20:40.960 --> 00:21:00.720 Um, but uh yeah, no, I think that it's directly a result of recovery and not just um recovery from alcoholism, um, but also recovery from that, you know, I I talk about this in the book, but I had a pretty terrible eating disorder for a long time. 00:21:00.960 --> 00:21:13.599 Um and uh what I had to do if I was going to actually recover is that I had to find a way to be uh alive that wasn't excruciating. 00:21:14.079 --> 00:21:30.079 And as long as I'm trying to um make the world, as long as I'm playing the queen of my own little tiny domain, I'm going to be miserable because at no point is reality going to measure up to my expectations. 00:21:30.240 --> 00:21:33.680 So I'm just gonna be thwarted, frustrated. 00:21:33.920 --> 00:21:42.559 Um, I'm gonna be I'm going to frustrate other people because they're, you know, the kings and queens of their little domains and they don't like my ideas about how things ought to be ruled. 00:21:42.640 --> 00:21:46.799 And so I'm going to have dysfunctional relationships with people. 00:21:47.519 --> 00:21:54.000 Um, and I'm gonna waste a lot of energy just butting my head up against the wall of what is. 00:21:54.799 --> 00:21:59.839 Um and so I became convinced that that was a path to miserable. 00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:13.839 And as long as I pursued it, I'm liable to pick up the tools that I've always used to deal with that misery, which is just basically the misery of being a human being with limited power. 00:22:14.240 --> 00:22:19.519 And to sort of begin to understand, well, what do I have? 00:22:19.680 --> 00:22:26.880 I mean, it's just like the classic prayer God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can. 00:22:27.039 --> 00:22:36.160 I mean, it's so simple and cliche, but it contains such a

profound truth that I feel like is can be really life-changing. 00:22:36.319 --> 00:22:51.440 And so I think that's no, this has been like whatever to whatever degree I have a stable relationship with reality now, it has been very slowly and painfully acquired over many years of experimenting with control. 00:22:52.000 --> 00:23:03.279 Um so yeah, for now, like when I'm miserable, my first, or probably more honestly, my second or third question is how am I making myself miserable? 00:23:04.640 --> 00:23:07.119 Not how are other people making me miserable? 00:23:07.440 --> 00:23:26.000 Yeah, that's a tough question to ask, you know, and I I think part of it is what stands out with you is it, you know, it's not perfect, there's still the struggles, but you asked the question, how is my relationship with the world, or like with reality? 00:23:26.480 --> 00:23:28.559 And we talk so much about relationships. 00:23:28.720 --> 00:23:37.519 We talk about relationships and like, you know, whether it's the family relationships, the peer relationships, the significant others, the recovery, right? 00:23:37.599 --> 00:23:39.599 We talk about recovery and peers and all that. 00:23:39.680 --> 00:23:45.599 And yet I can't think of how often someone goes, Well, what about that relationship with reality? 00:23:45.839 --> 00:23:52.640 And we want to we want to reiterate the except the things that I cannot change and the things that I cannot. 00:23:52.880 --> 00:24:01.920 And yet we often don't bring that back to what do I check in with that relationship with reality? 00:24:03.039 --> 00:24:05.279 That is never talked about. 00:24:23.200 --> 00:24:29.759 And then a really good question to that would be how's my relationship with reality? 00:24:29.920 --> 00:24:30.880 How's that going? 00:24:30.960 --> 00:24:32.319 Like, how am I with it? 00:24:32.480 --> 00:24:41.759 And I'm so amazed at what you've highlighted about having a relationship with reality. 00:24:43.680 --> 00:24:47.119 Well, I'm glad you like that idea. 00:24:47.920 --> 00:25:11.599 Yeah, I well, I think one of the problems though is that um that there's a one of the reasons I think I and so many of us have tend to have dysfunctional relationships with reality is that um it's not uh there's something else that we don't talk about, and that is broken perception. 00:25:12.400 --> 00:25:23.440 And um because I feel like when I was growing up, the message implicitly that I received, again, nobody told me this, like, Kate, you should absolutely trust your own mind. 00:25:23.759 --> 00:25:35.920 But something I had to slowly learn was that the stories that I'm telling myself that my head is telling me, or the way that I'm seeing things may not actually be the way things are. 00:25:36.319 --> 00:25:45.119 And I think it's really hard for anyone else to say to someone else, I think your perception might be broken here. 00:25:45.759 --> 00:25:48.079 Um because who's to say? 00:25:48.319 --> 00:25:49.759 You know

what I mean? 00:25:49.920 --> 00:25:55.519 Um, on some level, unless it's just like, you know, they say something obviously false. 00:25:56.079 --> 00:25:57.519 But um but yeah. 00:25:58.000 --> 00:25:59.279 It's a vulnerable subject. 00:25:59.440 --> 00:26:12.559 Like to even question someone, like that's not an easy to sit there and question someone's reality or someone's perceptions is that that's a that's a tough one. 00:26:12.720 --> 00:26:37.039 Like that requires, I would say, a lot of vulnerability, a lot of being safe with someone to even have that kind of acknowledgement because in a way we're almost saying, like, I'm questioning if I'm right or if I'm wrong, or I'm seeing it the way like that's that's tough to have, but the the value is so important, right? 00:26:37.200 --> 00:26:51.519 Like that that value that it holds is exponentially important, but yet to get there can be uh not an easy path to take. 00:26:52.079 --> 00:26:53.839 No, and it's really uncomfortable. 00:26:54.079 --> 00:26:54.319 Yeah. 00:26:54.799 --> 00:26:55.759 Really uncomfortable. 00:26:55.839 --> 00:27:15.279 That that's what I've I've discovered, is that even now, you know, I'll I'll be confronted with the reality that I've been telling myself a story, for instance, about uh just as a random example, totally hypothetical, my husband. 00:27:16.079 --> 00:27:19.759 Um, and I'll have a sort of a resentment going in my head. 00:27:20.079 --> 00:27:28.640 And then all of a sudden, I'll realize that I'm miserable and I'll wonder about the accuracy of the story. 00:27:29.119 --> 00:27:43.440 And um, and when I realize that I'm also to blame for whatever is going on between us, it is excruciating for me because I have to let go, because resentment is a kind of power in that scenario. 00:27:43.680 --> 00:27:45.440 I have to drop the power. 00:27:45.680 --> 00:28:04.000 I have to realize that once again I am not a victim, I am a participant, and that there's somewhere, maybe I don't have access to it yet, but if I approach him in conversation with that posture, then together we'll get to what's real. 00:28:04.240 --> 00:28:08.799 And um, but it is so painful to over and over again. 00:28:08.960 --> 00:28:15.519 I will say though, just as a word of encouragement to anyone who's like, I don't know, I want to give this reality thing a try. 00:28:15.759 --> 00:28:19.440 Um no one would actually say that. 00:28:20.480 --> 00:28:36.799 But um, it's gotten easier over time because it's like it's almost like working out, where I feel like I flex this muscle so many times over years where it was just like terribly, terribly painful in the beginning, and now it's like initially uncomfortable. 00:28:37.119 --> 00:28:42.160 And I almost but soon after I'm like, oh yeah, it feels so good to get to the other side of this. 00:28:42.400 --> 00:28:47.279 So I'm just gonna press through the discomfort because I know it's gonna be better on the other side. 00:28:47.680 --> 00:28:48.079 Yeah. 00:28:48.319 --> 00:28:48.559 Yeah. 00:28:50.160 --> 00:28:50.640 Yeah, absolutely. 00:28:50.720 --> 00:28:51.519 No, absolutely. 00:28:51.599 --> 00:28:55.440 That that is so important for people to to hear and to know. 00:28:55.519 --> 00:29:07.839 Cause also we're not trying to highlight, like, oh, you just asked this this question, or you you look at your relationship with reality and all this, and then it's just gonna be this amazing, insightful experience. 00:29:07.920 --> 00:29:11.440 Like it does come with the the challenges that are with that. 00:29:11.680 --> 00:29:21.920 I wanted to ask you, you know, you talk about the alcohol, drug use, you talk about the eating disorder, you talk about your experiences in the military. 00:29:23.440 --> 00:29:30.960 When you look at, how do you look at when recovery really began in all this? 00:29:31.119 --> 00:29:37.039 Because I think some people are like, well, is it this one thing that kind of took care of everything that was going on? 00:29:37.200 --> 00:29:42.400 Were there different things you had to do to sort of address the different experiences that you had? 00:29:42.559 --> 00:30:00.319 I think sometimes, you know, when we have such a we don't have one thing just taking and it it's often one thing going on, but when people tell their story or share their story, there's usually something that kind of takes center stage, which with your story you didn't really do that. 00:30:01.519 --> 00:30:26.480 However, when you look at everything that you went through and those types of things and the stuff that we often talk about in this space, was it that there was some moment or something that that kind of put recovery from all of it together, or was it different paths for all those different things that you kind of had to go through to deal with? 00:30:26.720 --> 00:30:28.960 Because it wasn't just one thing. 00:30:29.119 --> 00:30:32.160 There was quite a lot that that went on in your story. 00:30:32.559 --> 00:30:33.200 Yeah. 00:30:33.759 --> 00:30:36.559 Um, that's a really insightful question. 00:30:36.799 --> 00:30:40.720 Um yeah, I think that was another thing. 00:30:40.880 --> 00:30:59.119 So speaking of like interrupting stories that we tell ourselves, one of the things that I wanted to do in this book was tell it exactly how it actually happened and not buy into the idea of the sort of prefabricated recovery narrative where like things are bad, bad, bad, bad, bad. 00:30:59.359 --> 00:31:01.599 Pivotal moment, good, good, good, good, good. 00:31:01.920 --> 00:31:03.279 Yeah, the book is like 90%. 00:31:03.759 --> 00:31:13.839 This is the bad happen, the stories, and then the last two chapters, 10% is got into recovery and life is good. 00:31:14.240 --> 00:31:15.279 Yeah, exactly. 00:31:15.440 --> 00:31:15.680 Yeah. 00:31:15.759 --> 00:31:23.839 So I think you know, for me, uh it was like this slow progress. 00:31:24.160 --> 00:31:35.039 Um, there was, you know, and and pain was always

at the center of my like sort of thrusting me into serious action around recovery. 00:31:35.279 --> 00:31:59.119 Um, so there was a point when I was oh 25 or so that um and there had been like the book goes over all of this, but there had been moments of pain that maybe it's like someone else would have said, like, this is this is a reasonable point at which I, you know, just stop drinking, but I didn't, I kept going. 00:31:59.359 --> 00:32:03.200 Um and and it was it's sort of random. 00:32:03.519 --> 00:32:09.440 Some ways I think that like these windows open up in our lives with like opportunities to do something different. 00:32:09.599 --> 00:32:16.559 It's just this weird alignment of circumstance and willingness, and then we either do or don't jump through that window at that time. 00:32:16.640 --> 00:32:19.119 And so when I was 25, one of these windows opened up. 00:32:19.200 --> 00:32:26.480 I it was a I won't go into detail, it was just a very painful experience for me that precipitated that. 00:32:26.640 --> 00:32:37.839 And also my little, well, I shouldn't say that, a friend of mine is also in uh is sober and suggested that I go to a recovery meeting. 00:32:38.240 --> 00:32:40.480 And so I was like, I'm in enough pain. 00:32:40.640 --> 00:32:45.359 I don't think this is really my problem, but I'm gonna try it because I was in enough pain. 00:32:45.440 --> 00:32:47.839 And so that was the beginning, the very beginning. 00:32:48.000 --> 00:32:49.119 But then I would relapse. 00:32:49.279 --> 00:32:51.359 I relapsed for four years, in and out. 00:32:51.519 --> 00:32:57.839 At one point I had the last run, I had two years of sobriety and went out for one week. 00:32:58.160 --> 00:33:07.119 And in that week, I went from kind of like who I am today, which is like I'm able to show up in my life and love people and da-da-da. 00:33:07.519 --> 00:33:09.680 Um in one week I wanted to kill myself. 00:33:09.839 --> 00:33:11.839 It just took, it was, it was so fast. 00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:13.519 The progression was so fast. 00:33:13.920 --> 00:33:17.759 Um, and that scared the pants right off, but well, it scared me. 00:33:18.720 --> 00:33:22.880 And um, and I haven't had a drink since. 00:33:23.440 --> 00:33:35.039 Um and so yeah, I think that pain is often the sort of precipitating um thing, but you know, people suffer a lot and don't get sober. 00:33:35.359 --> 00:33:54.000 So I feel like it has to be this alignment with like pain, willingness, and opportunity all lining up, and um and pain does a lot to to you know make us willing, but then is there opportunity at that same moment? 00:33:54.079 --> 00:34:06.720 And so I'm I feel incredibly lucky that on multiple occasions in my life, pain, opportunity, and willingness lined up, and you know, I didn't die before I really got it. 00:34:06.960 --> 00:34:18.960 Um and yeah, since that last that week that uh brought me close to ending my own life, um I haven't had a a drink. 00:34:19.039 --> 00:34:24.079 And I also got into an outpatient eating disorder treatment program at that same time. 00:34:24.320 --> 00:34:26.000 And I was like, I'm handling this. 00:34:26.159 --> 00:34:28.320 I'm just like done with my own BS. 00:34:28.480 --> 00:34:32.159 I'm just going to hand I like I need to do something different. 00:34:32.239 --> 00:34:40.800 So I got into an outpatient eating disorder treatment program and just like went hard into recovery. 00:34:41.119 --> 00:34:50.639 Um, and I have not I've been sober in both senses for 13 years now, which is like I can't tell you how lucky I feel. 00:34:50.960 --> 00:34:52.079 It's not supposed to happen. 00:34:52.559 --> 00:34:53.440 I like how you put it. 00:34:53.519 --> 00:34:55.199 You said, and can you say it again? 00:34:55.280 --> 00:34:58.719 It was pain and opportunity, and what's the third? 00:35:00.159 --> 00:35:14.559 Yeah, because I think that's uh so important because as you're also sharing this, you're you're talking about I'm also like, there's plenty of people who are sick and tired of being sick and tired, but that doesn't also mean that automatically creates change. 00:35:14.800 --> 00:35:23.679 Like there's there's a lot of people who are sick and tired of being sick and tired, and that that doesn't mean someone all of a sudden becomes, well, now I guess I'm gonna be better. 00:35:23.920 --> 00:35:40.719 And those those other two things, I just think we don't always talk about enough in sort of the equation that that sort of helps to facilitate, you know, change or facilitate, you know, being able to uh make some difference or improvement or progress. 00:35:40.960 --> 00:35:47.679 Because yet we do focus on sometimes the pain, or we focus on how bad things can get or the rock bottom. 00:35:47.840 --> 00:35:58.239 And we don't necessarily talk about how that goes from a lot of people experience that, but that doesn't mean everyone all of a sudden is in recovery. 00:35:58.559 --> 00:35:58.960 Yeah. 00:35:59.199 --> 00:36:10.559 Well, and it's crazy too, over the years, I've heard so many stories of people who are like, you know, hospitalized, they're they nearly die of overdose or whatever, and then they go back right back out. 00:36:10.719 --> 00:36:13.360 And they they'll say this now as a person in recovery. 00:36:13.519 --> 00:36:19.119 And then other people who, you know, just came close to losing their job, and that was enough to get them in. 00:36:19.599 --> 00:36:27.199 So I really feel like the the pain thing is is a little bit, it just it needs to be something internal. 00:36:27.280 --> 00:36:44.559 It's not about like our external perception of pain, it's sort of almost a spiritual pain that a sense of of just total despair over one's own ability to fix oneself that makes you willing to to do to take action. 00:36:44.719 --> 00:36:58.639 And I think that's the because I for many years I thought I was willing to get better, but I wasn't willing to do any work or to face

myself really, and I really wanted to hold on to my lies and and all of my old ideas. 00:36:58.880 --> 00:37:10.000 So um, and some of that stuff, like, you know, we can is people who care about recovery and want to like help people recover. 00:37:10.159 --> 00:37:18.079 I feel like we can provide opportunity, but the other two are really outside of anyone else's control, the pain and the and the willingness. 00:37:18.239 --> 00:37:21.199 And that's just entirely up to the person and their freedom. 00:37:21.440 --> 00:37:28.480 Um, and that's hard, you know, especially if you love someone who's who's addicted, you know. 00:37:28.800 --> 00:37:39.119 But I but I like that you mention, you know, there are the two that we can't control, but opportunity is where we can keep showing up. 00:37:39.280 --> 00:38:08.079 Like I think that is so valuable because I think some people, whether it's they think it's I'm gonna assume that it's based on a a positive intention or they're they're thinking of doing the right thing, that the pain will like they need the pain, or the pain will eventually lead to this when it's those are things that are not in your control when it comes to the control, is you know being the opportunity or giving the opportunity for someone when those other two, you know, are in alignment. 00:38:09.039 --> 00:38:14.000 Yeah, so that when those two are there, they can just walk through the door and get that update. 00:38:14.400 --> 00:38:15.039 Yeah. 00:38:15.519 --> 00:38:16.320 And you hear that. 00:38:16.400 --> 00:38:30.960 I can't tell you, and I'm I apologize if I'm not finding a specific one because I'm I'm reading another book where someone talks about like there's always like someone that stands out who was that person that gives someone an opportunity. 00:38:31.440 --> 00:39:28.719 And maybe it was a job, maybe it was a place to live, maybe it was to go to a meeting, but you always read about or hear about someone's story where like this one person, it doesn't mean they showed up every day all the time, doesn't mean like they took someone in and they now are caring for this person, but there's so many stories where one person gave them an opportunity that no one else was or or did at the time, and how impactful that was, even though that wasn't the they got me sober, but it was they they helped me to get into this place, or they you know, helped me to not have to live on the street, and now all of a sudden that opportunity combined with the pain, right, and everything, was what really created this amazing experience. 00:39:28.880 --> 00:39:34.800 And I think that's something that's so important people just realize is you could be that opportunity for someone. 00:39:35.039 --> 00:39:42.400 You could you could be that that person that is what's missing in the equation. 00:39:43.440 --> 00:39:44.000 Yeah. 00:39:44.239 --> 00:39:55.920 And what's also cool about that is that something that I was afraid of early on, um, because I not

professionally, but I do a lot of work in recovery communities now. 00:39:56.320 --> 00:40:12.559 Um and um I was really afraid that I didn't have the expertise or the insight, or that I was gonna say the wrong thing, and that if I said the wrong thing, they, you know, I would be responsible for their relapse or, you know, maybe even their death. 00:40:12.880 --> 00:40:18.320 And what's and there's a lot of fear there that made me hesitant to put my hand out. 00:40:18.639 --> 00:40:29.679 Um, but over time, something that I heard from other people that was incredibly helpful to me was that um all you need to do is extend your hand. 00:40:30.000 --> 00:40:32.480 And you just need to be who you are. 00:40:32.559 --> 00:40:38.800 And there's no there, you don't you can be a neighbor, you can be um like a mailman, you know what I mean? 00:40:38.880 --> 00:40:51.840 It doesn't, it kind of doesn't matter because um a lot of times what people need is just to s have somebody see them in that moment and say, let me help you. 00:40:52.559 --> 00:41:06.639 And it can be the smallest thing, like um like the so when I when I was describing that week where I ended up wanting to kill myself, um is that all right to talk about this show or something? 00:41:06.719 --> 00:41:07.519 Yeah, absolutely. 00:41:08.559 --> 00:41:14.480 Um but I was I'd been sort of had like vague suicidal ideation for a long time, but this time I was like very serious. 00:41:14.719 --> 00:41:22.079 Um and I thought in the back of my head, let me just call this woman who had been helping me with sobriety. 00:41:22.320 --> 00:41:28.639 And um, I knew what she was gonna say, I knew that it couldn't help me, but I thought at least then I can say I've tried. 00:41:28.960 --> 00:41:34.000 And um I called her and she picked up, which is in itself a kind of miracle. 00:41:34.239 --> 00:41:36.480 You know, she'd had other stuff going on that day. 00:41:36.880 --> 00:41:43.199 And um, and what she told me then, this was life-changing for me, and it's nothing like crazy. 00:41:43.360 --> 00:41:47.360 She just said, Kate, you're in a dark place right now. 00:41:48.320 --> 00:41:59.840 And if you if you can't see the light at all, if it seems entirely dark, I just want you to know that if you can stay sober today, you will walk in the light again. 00:42:00.559 --> 00:42:15.360 And I so I had so somehow that just pierced me, and I believed that even though the world did indeed seem dark in a way that it could, I thought that that was permanent, a permanent kind of darkness had been laid on me. 00:42:15.679 --> 00:42:18.000 Um, but I just held on to those words. 00:42:18.159 --> 00:42:22.400 And she didn't know what she was that she was saving my life in that moment, you know. 00:42:22.559 --> 00:42:28.480 She she's not like a therapist or anything, she just said something that she thought was true and she saved my life. 00:42:28.639 --> 00:42:36.000 Um, so I think that's like kind of a good example of

somebody just being willing to pick up the phone. 00:42:36.800 --> 00:42:40.159 Yeah, and then here you are writing a book between the light and me. 00:42:40.320 --> 00:42:40.960 Yeah. 00:42:41.280 --> 00:42:43.519 With what she was saying with that. 00:42:43.760 --> 00:42:46.000 And that's I just think that's so true. 00:42:46.159 --> 00:42:49.519 Like, we don't we don't always know who those people are gonna be. 00:42:49.679 --> 00:43:02.960 And that's why, even yeah, I always I talked about it a couple times on the podcast, not often, but when I was younger and I was struggling in my my teens, I was traveling with my dad to uh hotels. 00:43:03.119 --> 00:43:08.000 We were he was doing some conference stuff, and I was always training and I was always helping him out. 00:43:08.159 --> 00:43:25.840 And there's a time when I sleep has always been a challenge for me throughout my life, and you know, I would struggle to be sleeping, I'd have nightmares and stuff, and I would get up in the middle of the night late at night and I'd walk around the hotel. 00:43:26.159 --> 00:43:43.280 Because the hotel you can walk around, and it's not like the it's not gonna draw so many eyes, but there was an amazing guy who was the bellhop late at night, third shift, who we were at this place a couple times, so begin to know me, begin to know my dad. 00:43:43.360 --> 00:43:51.280 And yeah, I just remember there are times where I would just talk with him and he would just say, Hey, what's up, checking in on me. 00:43:51.679 --> 00:43:59.360 And uh, you know, I've I haven't seen this guy since I was you know like in my teens, you know, like this is now several, several years ago. 00:44:00.000 --> 00:44:08.880 And I always remember like the impact that he had, like just having someone that I could say hi to. 00:44:09.039 --> 00:44:19.199 You know, he'd ask how I was doing, or you know, clearly I think he knew there was a struggle because here I am, it's like one in the morning, and I'm just kind of wandering around a hotel. 00:44:19.840 --> 00:44:33.440 And there's just so many of those people that's me, like they're like the the opportunity heroes that you that you mentioned that we don't anticipate they're gonna be around. 00:44:33.519 --> 00:44:35.199 We don't know who that's gonna be. 00:44:35.360 --> 00:44:46.639 But there's just so many stories where people talk about that person that gave them that opportunity, and what an incredible thing it ended up doing for the person. 00:44:46.880 --> 00:45:07.679 It may not have been the whole dissolved everything or this took care of everything, but at that time of pain, and then with that opportunity that someone else provided, and the willingness to then do something with it is pretty profound, and we don't talk about that enough. 00:45:07.760 --> 00:45:14.800 I that's not about any of my motivational interviewing stages of change, any of that. 00:45:15.119 --> 00:45:23.440 So I'm I'm so thankful that you really brought

this to the conversation and and and shared about it with your writing. 00:45:23.840 --> 00:45:25.199 Oh, thank you. 00:45:25.519 --> 00:45:29.360 Yeah, I'm grateful that you're interested in anything I have to say. 00:45:29.599 --> 00:45:40.400 So I have uh one more question before we wrap up, and this is a little bit unusual because if I'm gonna ask a question about the title, yeah, I usually do it at the beginning. 00:45:40.639 --> 00:45:42.320 It's like usually one of my first things. 00:45:42.639 --> 00:45:53.119 But for some reason, I wanted to bring it up at the end because the title, Between the Light and Me, and also a memoir of beauty and violence. 00:45:53.599 --> 00:45:58.559 We kind of hear like these contrasting, you know, polar opposite sometimes things. 00:45:58.639 --> 00:46:05.519 And then on the back, you know, you have this quote on here from someone who wrote about the book. 00:46:05.599 --> 00:46:13.119 And it said, Between the light and me traces the boundary between beauty and violence and our messy, blessed human experience. 00:46:13.440 --> 00:46:25.440 Killcup's brave telling argues that life, real, unperfect life, is not a shame that holiness must fast from fast from, but rather food for the journey. 00:46:25.679 --> 00:46:38.239 My question for you is when we see these things that are contrasting, you know, it it light in me or beauty and violence, we tend to see these as you know, polar opposites. 00:46:38.400 --> 00:46:43.599 They, you know, it but is the beauty the entire spectrum? 00:46:43.760 --> 00:46:55.840 Is the beauty all of it versus some people are trying to find the beauty along a certain point or a certain way, or they think it's gonna be more over here than it is over there? 00:46:56.400 --> 00:47:34.320 It anything that with you speaks towards with your purpose of writing the book, when you talked about not just wanting it to be about a diction memoir or a military memoir or eating disorder memoir, and really talking about existing and and being human, where does that tie in when we sometimes get into these things that we act like are on spectrums and polar opposites that they they can't exist together, and yet here you are trying to write about the very thing of the beauty of existence? 00:47:34.639 --> 00:47:35.280 Yeah. 00:47:36.159 --> 00:47:43.760 Well, it's a I mean it's a question I should probably have like an elevator pitch answer for, but I don't because it's a complex question. 00:47:44.000 --> 00:47:44.400 Yeah. 00:47:46.159 --> 00:47:58.320 And uh yeah, I I mean I believe that there are some things that are truly dark, and I think that there are some things that are just truly luminous in an unmixed kind of way. 00:47:59.760 --> 00:48:02.480 But I think most of life is mixed. 00:48:03.039 --> 00:48:30.079 And um, and I also, at least in my experience, um, one of the most bizarre things that I just I mean, I encounter it in literature sometimes, but it is just true to my own life, and that

is that in the moments of um some of the moments of like sort of extreme suffering, um I also experience extreme beauty. 00:48:31.119 --> 00:48:40.960 Um and uh and like it's somehow I it was and I don't know exactly the relationship between the two. 00:48:41.119 --> 00:49:11.760 I wouldn't say that the suffering itself was beautiful, but that it somehow opened up a capacity in me to notice, to see, to be receptive to um to beauty in a different way, to be pierced by it, you know, and um and in a way that called me uh not out of the situation exactly, but that somehow illuminated the whole experience. 00:49:12.239 --> 00:49:16.400 Um like I think this is all really abstract. 00:49:16.639 --> 00:49:43.199 But um but yeah, I do think it's just it's really interwoven and that um yeah, that they I don't know if I would ever call suffering itself beautiful, but but I think that it can lead, it can make us capable of receiving beauty in a different way. 00:49:43.679 --> 00:49:51.039 Um at one point in the book I described this day that I pretended I was sick, I was in the army, so this is actually like a criminal offense. 00:49:51.440 --> 00:50:12.079 And um and I drove out to a little art museum in San Antonio, and I was in such a place of like despair that the that the art that I saw in that museum was just I didn't even know anything about it, but it just affected me so profoundly because I was in a place of despair. 00:50:12.559 --> 00:50:18.960 Um, so anyway, I find that relationship very mysterious, and I do not have a clear answer. 00:50:19.440 --> 00:50:24.400 But um yeah, I'm sure there are people who who have thought about it philosophically. 00:50:24.480 --> 00:50:25.840 I'm just not one of them. 00:50:26.639 --> 00:50:33.280 Yeah, I mean, I think it's so I think a lot of people you know think about that too. 00:50:33.440 --> 00:50:42.800 You know, people talk about like even their addiction, and they're like, I wouldn't change anything, you know, even what they live through or what they've they've gone through. 00:50:42.960 --> 00:50:48.960 And it's you know, it's different to see it now than when you were living in some of the the the worst of the worst. 00:50:49.280 --> 00:51:02.079 And I ask because it it just seems like at times we get caught up into like it's either this or that, or you know, it's all or nothing. 00:51:02.480 --> 00:51:26.880 And so often I feel like life exists in all between all that, that this is where living happens, even though there is parts of it that, like you said, have the the evil, the bad, the violence, but then there's also parts that have the light and the beauty, and and part of it is all that how we walk through and and live this existence. 00:51:27.199 --> 00:51:37.360 Yeah, and you know, when you talk about between the light and me, I think someone might wonder, like, why would why wouldn't it be called between the the light and darkness? 00:51:37.519 --> 00:51:41.039 But yeah, you chose between the light and me. 00:51:41.519 --> 00:51:43.440 And it's just so profound. 00:51:43.840 --> 00:51:55.360 Everything about your book and your writing, and even having a conversation with you, it challenges someone to think even deeper about things. 00:51:55.519 --> 00:52:19.280 Like, I don't know if that's what you've had other people react to, but for me, there's always like this this layer of things that we are usually familiar with or that we are aware of, and then reading your book and talking with you, it's like curiosity about what's going on still further beneath that that hasn't yet been discovered or known or talked about. 00:52:19.840 --> 00:52:31.119 And that's a that's a pretty powerful thing to be able to invoke from others who not everyone is wanting to go that place or contemplating it. 00:52:32.000 --> 00:52:35.119 Well, that is an incredibly kind thing for you to say. 00:52:35.760 --> 00:52:45.039 But yeah, I mean that is that is kind of my uh like a just a quirk of my personality or whatever, but that's kind of what I'm obsessed with. 00:52:45.920 --> 00:53:07.199 Is that um so yeah, but I will say the title I actually came up, I came up with it because I was reading an Emily Dickinson poem titled, um, and I think it's in the an epigraph in the very early part of the book, but it's titled, I heard a fly buzz when I died. 00:53:08.159 --> 00:53:15.039 And um anyway, so it's about a person who's the speaker actually, who's dying. 00:53:15.599 --> 00:53:23.760 And there's light in the room, but there's also this fly buzzing between the person who's dying and the light. 00:53:24.000 --> 00:53:32.800 And I thought of all of the sort of thing the reason I because between the light and me, it's actually what I'm talking about, is the fly. 00:53:33.360 --> 00:53:53.280 Because the book is in some ways about this fly that buzzes the addictions and the you know, all of a sort of madness that buzzes between what I think of as my true self, the person that I was made to be, and um and the experience of being that person, even in death, or maybe most wholly in death. 00:53:53.599 --> 00:53:57.679 Um so anyway, that's that's where the title came from. 00:53:58.000 --> 00:54:02.639 But I would I would not expect people to know that. 00:54:04.559 --> 00:54:06.000 Just the backstory. 00:54:06.800 --> 00:54:07.360 All right. 00:54:07.599 --> 00:54:09.920 Uh final takeaway. 00:54:10.159 --> 00:54:15.920 Uh based on our conversation, or anything you'd like to share as a final message for listeners. 00:54:17.840 --> 00:54:38.800 Um Yeah, I mean, the final thing is if there's anyone listening who is currently struggling with addiction, um I would say to you that um there is more hope and love for you in the world than you may know. 00:54:39.599 --> 00:54:44.880 And um and that I hope you you find it. 00:54:46.400 --> 00:54:47.280 It's amazing. 00:54:47.519 --> 00:54:48.480 Well, thank you so much. 00:54:48.639 --> 00:54:54.239 The book uh Between the Light and Me, uh Kathleen Kilcup, it's amazing to have you on to talk about it. 00:54:54.320 --> 00:55:01.840 We'll make sure people know where to find it, have access to to read it and to stay in touch with you or contact you and learn more. 00:55:02.000 --> 00:55:04.559 But thank you so much for being a part of the podcast. 00:55:04.800 --> 00:55:06.639 Oh, thank you so much for having me on. 00:55:06.719 --> 00:55:09.199 This is a really fun conversation. 00:55:09.840 --> 00:55:16.639 Before you go, if today's conversation gave you something useful, something you'll carry into your own life or work, I'd ask you to do one thing. 00:55:16.800 --> 00:55:18.880 Leave a review on Apple Podcasts. 00:55:19.119 --> 00:55:24.400 It takes about 30 seconds, and it's genuinely the most powerful way to help this show reach more people who need it. 00:55:24.639 --> 00:55:32.079 Clinicians, counselors, people in recovery, they're searching for exactly this kind of conversation, and your review is what puts us in front of them. 00:55:32.239 --> 00:55:36.719 Scroll down on the Apple Podcast, tap the stars, write a line or two, that's it. 00:55:36.800 --> 00:55:38.239 I read every single one. 00:55:38.400 --> 00:55:39.679 Thank you for being here. 00:55:41.199 --> 00:55:44.639 You've been listening to Talking Addiction and Recovery with Andrew J. 00:55:44.800 --> 00:55:45.280 Trier. 00:55:45.519 --> 00:55:53.920 We're so glad you joined us and invite you to connect further with the show and these topics at www.andrewjdryer.com. 00:55:54.079 --> 00:55:59.119 That's Andrew J S C H R E I E R dot com. 00:55:59.519 --> 00:56:05.039 You can also email us directly at talkingaddictionandrecovery at gmail.com. 00:56:05.119 --> 00:56:16.000 And connect on social media, Instagram at TalkingAddiction and Recovery, Facebook, Talking Addiction and Recovery Podcast, and Twitter at talkar underscore podcast. 00:56:16.159 --> 00:56:20.559 To stay connected and never miss an episode, be sure to like, rate, and subscribe. 00:56:20.800 --> 00:56:25.119 Until next time, friends, let's keep talking addiction and recovery.