התמלול המלא של Fathers, Stop Waiting Until You Know What You're Doing w/ Brandon Sheard

don't have, or no, I work on it and it's utropalia. It's the virtue of right recreation, of ordered enjoyment. For me, like it's raining. and I'm out milking the cow by hand, I love it. Like that, that's play. That is my play. But that's messed up. That's not, that's not play, objectively. And so my delight I derive from like doing something just perfect, just right. And I love it. And things are working, the grass is growing, my rotations are clicking with the seasons and all that stuff. That to me is good. And then I'm like, what? What is this play, this delight, these games? I don't do that. And that's a thing that children and normal, well-ordered humans need. They need to be sustained by pleasure, by play. Jason M Craig (08:42.384) Wow. Hold on. Good grief. You just went through like th three thing. Aren't you glad I didn't start with ev all your other interviews, which is Brandon, tell us how you made a move to the homestead. All right, no, let's talk about you as a dad. Hold on, going back to the You know, the the temptation of recognizing the world is disordered and the agrarian conviction that you and I share and that, you know, my co editor Charlie Rumore, has and other mentors of mine, j you know, Justin Byn like friends of mine, guys involved with fraternist, have accused me as well. Maybe they're you're accusing yourself as like thinking, that this ideal will fix all the problems. So once kind of fit in this mold, Brandon Sheard (09:04.502) Yeah. Jason M Craig (09:26.904) Now, there's a truth. There's a problem. I mean, I wrote a book on it. I'm confident about the history of it. It's traceable. It's observable. The move away from productive households and connection to the land has been bad for us. It has. But then the attempt of those of us to just like get back into it, can I think not give especially when when you first jump in, right? And you start declaring how this is gonna fix everything. What what was the thing for you where you realized this I this this this thing this life that I've brought my family in because it is a life. It's not just I mean it's not just a life act. I mean it's a consuming reality when you're, you know, just taking care of I mean, even if you have just chickens in the backyard. but what was the thing that happened that you were you were like the the vision I've placed before my own eyes is just not what's unfolding in reality. Brandon Sheard (10:12.909) Mm-hmm. Brandon Sheard (10:24.618) I think it was the preponderance of children, definitely, made me realize that what I... Well, there are healthy doves of reality. And they made me realize that I had done something at the beginning that I was unaware of. And that thing, I think, is really common and almost... Jason M Craig (10:30.086) Yeah, they ruin all of us. They ruin all of us. Brandon Sheard (10:53.644) like the baseline starting point for a lot of us who want a homestead, specifically our generation. And that is, I know all I have to

do is everything by myself, all of it. And I'm just realizing how much of that we bit off, you know, at the beginning and kind of set our life in that direction. So by everything, I literally mean we tend to pick all the battles, all of them. We're gonna home educate all of our children. We're not gonna have any help because everyone else is a corrupt debauched moron and we don't want them involved with the formation of our kids. I get it, know, so there's home education. Like even we're gonna produce all of our food or at least the essentials so that we can also be our own doctors. So we're not gonna, you know, do regular, at least this was us, you know. I'm not going to do regular family doctor checkups. We're just going to be so stupendously healthy that we're going to slide by all of the health plagues that beset us. And we've actually been able to do that pretty well. What other bad is, we're going to run our own business. We're going to do, we're going to generate our own income in some very creative way that allows us to farm, to, to agriculturalize, and maybe we'll even make money on the farm. and that will be our business. And then, like I said, we're gonna grow and produce a lot of our own food. Did I miss any battle? Jason M Craig (12:32.289) And keep your house clean. Brandon Sheard (12:32.407) Those are the big ones. And keep your house clean. Right, so I wasn't thinking about that one, Jason, at the beginning. It's those little, yeah, that's right. It's those little virtues. So all of those things that I think on an objective level, I've had to realize that is too many things. And what they... Jason M Craig (12:39.974) I could tell you missed one. I could tell. Brandon Sheard (13:00.61) But it's not bad, think, necessarily to pick those battles, because so much of that is just a response to the environment in which we live. You know, for a lot of us, our extended families aren't helping us in all of these things. You know, our local communities were kind of isolated. We're islands. And then, know, rightly, we have developed an extreme and deep-seated mistrust of any institution. Whether it be school or even our churches or any kind of institutional help, medical help. It's just, we, and I only say this cause I, I have this, you know, we immediately recoil like anything is better than what the institution can provide. And, but the thing about that is I think that that's actually not a Christian way to look at the world. The world is definitely corrupted and yet we should not be doing, you know, whatever they're doing in public schools for the most part. And I am shamelessly for preserving the innocence of children, you know, to the extreme, whatever that requires. But there is this thing called society and that is supposed to provide Jason M Craig (14:02.981) Why? Brandon Sheard (14:29.61) support for the irreducible unit of society, the family. And if we start this project of family life with a, you know, a presumption that just because it's an institution, it disqualifies itself from helping us, then I've made an error in that way. So I guess to go back, you know, I've found that it's what you find, especially after, you know, child five, six, seven, eight, nine, however many, you literally, in achieving your paradisical, you know, Eden, where virtue just grows on trees and your children are just naturally going to grow in it, as will you, if you just get the circumstances right. The thing that helped me realize, okay, this is maybe not what's gonna happen, is sheer limitation. So we just have limitations. There's a point when you realize, and you know this as a father of lot of kids, there are literally not enough hours in the day. It's not there. You're gonna hit the end of your energy reserves. And yes, 26 year olds, you do have an end. The gas does run out. You'll think you can push through it, but when you hit the ripe old age of 40 something, and know, whatever number of children, you'll find that you'll go to do that thing. You'll will it through, you'll push it through that you've always done, and there'll be nothing there. You're empty, totally. So, physical limitation, temporal limitation, just elemental limitations that we've come up against. Now, I don't want it to sound dark. Our kids are wonderful, and that's because of the grace of God and because of who they are as individuals. Jason M Craig (16:15.471) Yeah. Brandon Sheard (16:25.11) So we're all good, but I've definitely had to realize I can't pick all the battles. There's just limitations. There's limitations to the human. Jason M Craig (16:35.31) Mm. Especially if you you were saying, you know, if if people aren't familiar with temperaments or maybe we talk about it too much. I don't know. I'm very I'm a big fan of it. It's very helpful. As a father, there is nothing more helpful. I'm sorry. There are a lot less things that are less helpful. It's very helpful. is is, you know, and my my wife's melancholy. So the the perfectionism can come across as you're sort of in a constant state of disappointment at things not being Brandon Sheard (16:44.492) Yeah, me too. Brandon Sheard (16:48.992) Absolutely. Jason M Craig (17:05.208) Right. And other people might actually be perfectly contented with the way things are. but I would say, yeah, your idealism too, mixed with that would would bite off so much. and I I think yeah, I think the the skepticism the and then the c and then the strange confidence on the other side of that when it doesn't work, there can be real despair. And you know, I mean I think We had a big I know it was very hard for my wife when when I have a son who's got type one diabetes, you know, and then a son who's got celiac. So you're doing all the right things. I mean, we're ri we got the grass fed dairy, we own a dairy, we're we're we got the sourdough bread, we're you know, all right, you know, maybe we're sneaking a donut every night, whatever, but we're like we're

doing the thing. And then this devastating Brandon Sheard (17:43.214) Hmm. Jason M Craig (17:58.303) if people are unfamiliar with type one diabetes, if you don't do something, they die. And then and then you live with that. If ongoing you don't do something, like when they're having a load, they die. It's not like it's not even like celiac, like, I got really bad stomach cramps or Crohn's or something. It's like, no, they die. So that that was just a shocking and then we become completely dependent on the institutions of the health world and but then and people will come in our lives and like Brandon Sheard (18:10.627) Yeah. Brandon Sheard (18:16.654) . Jason M Craig (18:26.862) There's just kinda like winking and nod, well, you know, it's really all diet. And I just wanna I just want like I just wanna punch him in the face because it's not. And there's more complications to life. And I think it just kinda it's it just humbles you. So anyway, I know that can be Yeah, I'm just yeah, I I I have more knowledge of you now. That's good. in a in a hopefully a not weird way. Brandon Sheard (18:31.374) Yeah. Brandon Sheard (18:35.928) Yeah. Jason M Craig (18:51.034) Did that would you say, I mean, we've I've i don't know. There's been maybe it's just a string of guests where it seems that this realization, the the and this this makes sense, I think, with the you know, our journey through time as humans, that there are phases of life. I mean, I mean Lagrange and the Ages of Spirit, you talks about youth as a natural hope. You know, the other side of hope is is pride, right? So okay. and then age has the the the gained wisdom and but the potential downside of that is despair. I guess you're on your way to death. so they really need each other. this sort of, you know, the confidence of hope and the the wisdom of humility. it seems like a lot of people I've talked to that seems to set in with fathers later when either they have they just realize I have enough kids where I just don't feel like Brandon Sheard (19:26.253) Mm-hmm. Jason M Craig (19:50.489) I can do everything. Or I think this is more common and I don't know if this is where you're gonna say when you start to really ha reck have have budding adults in your home and you recognize now I'm not just taking care of things, to just keep them alive, in which case your children are all not all that different from the pigs. you just have to buy homeschool curriculum. You just gotta keep them alive. It's not that hard. Brandon Sheard (20:13.708) Mm-hmm. Jason M Craig (20:18.788) But all of a sudden when the their their life begins to unfold and flourish, that's when all of your you realize as a father it's unique where I have the most influence over like I am the biggest influence on this thing's life. And at the same time, I'm not in control of this thing. I am the most important formator of this thing, but I am not its creator and end. I am, you know, it's this both and of of you know, main to so anyway, hi was that I'm just guessing 'cause I remember l when we met when we talked at the Liturgy Land conference, you were really like I guess in just the last couple of years talking about like the things that you changed and did that you never thought you would have because of, you know, sons getting older and children getting older. Brandon Sheard (21:04.95) Yeah, absolutely. I think it was Pope Benedict who described education as the meeting of two freedoms. that's what I get. It's one thing to look at your, especially, you your children that are getting older, your oldest kids. Mine are all boys, my top three, first, second and third born. You know, 17, 15, 13. And not only are they incredibly free on an ontological level in their will, they are incredibly powerful. Like they're, they're large. My oldest son towers over me. Fortunately, he is a very good hearted young man. But they, what I have found is, again, yeah, it's, like that youthful hope that you're talking about, that you mentioned, it's so essential. And I think God is so merciful that he allows us to have that so that we do incredibly silly but good things like get married, which is from the aspect of the individuals involved. especially if you haven't been formed, you know, maybe you didn't grow up in a Catholic context, you have no idea what you're doing. You need a hefty helping of hope, which I believe, you know, God supplies so that you can get into matrimony and start getting those graces to raise your family well. And so there's definitely providence there. And it's, but it's so easy to have this hubris, especially if you're a perfectionist. with, I'm just going to form my kids. They're just going to believe what I am going to teach them. And their ponderous intellects is just going to stay within this scope of my walled garden. Like they'll just be right in here and they're not going to go out. And that is not true. That's not the control that you have over your kids. And I have found, you know, especially this generational effect where I grew up at the movie theaters. Brandon Sheard (23:27.522) You know, exposed to all, all the media of the world back in the late eighties and nineties, zero, zero limit on that. My children had a substantial limit. And so that when, when they are exposed to something in the world, they're immediately dazzled by it, you know, specifically film and like it's a, you know, they might. My, one of my sons, he's very academic about it. He's choleric. Right? So he sees a good movie and he's like, I'm going to make a movie. And that's just how he goes, you know? And so he's literally going to, he's written a script. It's, actually good. You know, he's, he has taken and put effort into this medium, because, you know, he saw a film heavily redacted on vid angel and, It's not something that I had in my original scope of this is what my children will like. Like, he's actually, no, my kids are going to recite Purgatorio while

they're milking the cow. Like, that's the scope I had laid out for them. And so, you just can't anticipate where the interests and where the will of your children are gonna, where they're gonna go. And thanks be to God, you know, there's... Jason M Craig (24:40.733) Ha ha. Brandon Sheard (24:56.6) There's nothing extravagant and untoward in the directions that my children are going, but definitely unexpected and not it in realms. Jason M Craig (25:06.372) Yeah. So how would you articulate that h how would you articulate that to young fathers, or even older fathers by way of encouragement, but two young f fathers that Jason M Craig (25:19.844) I guess the You're you're d what you are you are providing them. I guess how have you how have you adjusted the philosophical understanding of your education? Because in a certain sense what you're describing is it did work. It's just you didn't know these people because they didn't exist and now you're getting to know them. I mean that's that's something my friend Charlie says a lot. He's like, I realize how much how how glorious it is Brandon Sheard (25:27.576) Yeah. Brandon Sheard (25:37.559) Yeah. Jason M Craig (25:45.573) that my job now as my children get older is to get to know them. That's actually really exciting because they have a depth of being that you would think you would grasp because you wiped their butt when they were babies. but you actually there's there it you it's exciting to get to know them. So I can relate to like, what do you mean you're making a movie? Like that doesn't Brandon Sheard (25:49.816) Yeah. Brandon Sheard (25:57.079) Yeah. Brandon Sheard (26:04.088) Yeah. Yeah. Jason M Craig (26:06.766) Not to just say, all right, well they get 'cause the other thing is like, just let them follow their interests wherever it goes. Like that's probably not true either in your home. I mean, you're s you're you're you've got some order you're providing, but there's an expansion of freedom. But how would you now go back to Brandon Shear ten years ago and say, Hey, let me tell you something you needed about educating, informing your children that you don't know? Brandon Sheard (26:14.284) Right. Brandon Sheard (26:27.33) That is a great question because that as a melancholic, that's the present self that accuses the former self frequently. that you're right. Yeah, you're right. It's advice because I am still a young father. Like I have a three month old baby. we're, you know, we're we're still in baby town. So and the thing that I tell myself is it's becoming clearer and clearer. Jason M Craig (26:36.964) No, give him advice. Don't accuse him, man. Get your head up. Gosh, you people Jason M Craig (26:44.88) Woo! Brandon Sheard (26:55.798) And that is you just have to as a young man or even as an old man with young children, you must father actively. And you don't even have to be what you think would be competent at it. You need to be in a state of grace. You do need to know your faith. But man, the amount of times that I held back and more by omission did not provide the leadership or the education or the formation in the moment that I should have. That pile of omission is much bigger than any, you know, any problems we would have suffered from me doing it imperfectly. Like what, I don't have a philosophy of film. Like I resent screens in general. Like this is not, this is not where my brain is at all. But. Woe, woe is me if I'm just like, here's a screen child that is interested in the art of cinema and I don't provide him the guidance and the interest. Like I need to be interested in him and his pursuit. And I know it sounds basic, but that to me is what it is. Again, it's like Pope Benedict said, know, we're in the age of absconding fathers. And maybe it's more of a melancholic temptation, but it is so, so easy to perceive or to proceed in your family with not doing like active harm, hopefully, but just by omitting. it just being present every evening, if you work a normal job, talking with each of your children, which again, sounds simple, but it, you know, There's five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten of them. That is no longer a simple thing. Like you actually need to father each one. And I honestly, I just look at it as it's what a priest does in a parish. You know, that's kind of the model we can follow. We teach, govern and sanctify. that's what we got to do. And so I have to teach. Even when I'm looking at my children and I'm blank. Jason M Craig (28:58.597) Yeah. Jason M Craig (29:16.325) Yeah. Brandon Sheard (29:23.97) I've got nothing in the brain, nothing, but exhaustion. But they're looking at me, right? Teach anyway. The Holy Spirit, by the graces of matrimony, you're going to say the right thing. Jason M Craig (29:40.487) See, that's fascinating. Cause I think we what we were somewhat earlier when you're trying to set the stage of like we're just gonna live this life and then everything's gonna work out. and I think all of us, whatever your temperament, there's the there's this little and especially in the age of memes and Catholic influencers and just a lack of wisdom and stable culture and experience, there is a tendency for the all you gotta do is them is what my wife and I call it. All you gotta do is them. where people will declare all you gotta do is blank. And then if you scratch a surface, like, wait, let me get this straight. You're a new convert, you've been married six years. like this, we can say all you gotta do is them when our village is 300 years old, right? Then we'll we'll say, okay. So what we that's what we want to do. We want to, I will provide and this is by the way, this isn't this isn't restricted to us dorky homeschool bearded, you know. Brandon Sheard (30:09.826) Yeah. Jason M Craig (30:38.84) Millennial podcasting dads that complain about screens while podcasting. This is guy and smoke pipes. Yeah. Where's mine? this this this would go to if your ideal has been my

kid is gonna be the perfect athlete in you know suburbia. My kid is gonna be the avant-garde, you know, cosmopolitan urbanite, whatever it is. The real work. Brandon Sheard (30:43.01) And smoke pipes, yeah. Jason M Craig (31:02.17) That I think you're describing is how much you have to engage and see and know your children, not just provide the con and they want to know you. And sorry, moms. Moms actually are the ones that provide this like spirit of broad context and and encompassing wholeness. And that's act that's kind of like the church. It's like just the church. But when we talk about real spiritual growth, it gets uncomfortable. We start talking about the father's work in us. Brandon Sheard (31:20.76) Yep. Jason M Craig (31:30.052) like the way scripture like the father will complete the work, but he knows you by name. It's this very individual. And whenever it's very individual, the the spiritual dynamic we're dealing with is not really the whole body of Christ as a whole, as a body. it's not the church as as this container of the mystery of the sacraments. It's actually then it gets this almost isolating thing where it's you alone with your father looking at you. You know, and talk and I think when you that's been I'm Brandon Sheard (31:32.163) Yeah. Jason M Craig (31:59.951) Sorry, telling back my experience to realize while they all just need me to engage. And I would agree with you, the most people think the problem with fathers today is lust or pride or wrath or avarice or greed. But I think it's sloth that you're actually not willing to do the relational work of Brandon Sheard (32:19.309) Yeah. Jason M Craig (32:25.25) Whatever your temperament. If you're melancholic, you're like disappointed because they're not perfect. If you're a choleric, you could care less what they are because you just want to get your goals done. And if you're sanguine like me, you're like, hey dude, let's hang out. you're kind of down. I don't want to hang out with this one. Or if you're if you're phlegmatic, you're just like, I'm just gonna sit over here. What do you own to do? I don't know. You know, so but but they need us to lead. They and they and that pr that is primarily getting to know them. Brandon Sheard (32:38.094) Yeah. Brandon Sheard (32:43.81) Yeah. Brandon Sheard (32:47.82) Yeah, that's interesting that I was going to actually ask you how does that sloth, how is that struggle with a sanguine temperament? And that's because I get it fully as a melancholic. Like it's, you know, again, it's just I can stonewall and retreat from all the imperfection over here and I can go and I can just construct my own little zone of order right here, which is always in solitude. And that is Jason M Craig (33:15.876) Yeah. that's right. That's that's yeah. So that's my wife. So no, you wanna you wanna know you wanna know my response? Man, everybody's kinda everybody's kinda down. I need to deal with some stuff here. Who wants to go get some chicken wings instead? Right. That's and my wife's like, You just said we're really tight on money and we shouldn't spend anything we don't need to I'm like, Yeah, but look at everybody, they're down. Well, we raise our own chickens. Why don't we eat those chickens? Have you ever tasted chicken wings? You know, so that's how it looks. Brandon Sheard (33:17.358) That's the melancholic thing. Yeah. Brandon Sheard (33:38.563) Yeah. Brandon Sheard (33:43.362) Hahaha Jason M Craig (33:44.825) And it and it, you know, it's it's yeah, it's a you know, you can be being being social is not the same as being a father who knows their children. I mean, I just because you're you enjoy people doesn't mean you're good with people, you know. So and that's so it's good for us to talk because my wife's always like, you people, you're always so like happy. I'm like, nope, you know what? We're skating across the surface. I mean Brandon Sheard (33:54.734) Hmm. Jason M Craig (34:11.224) Yes, maybe you're dragging us down to the depths where it's like, can we just so so maybe that you know, we need each other. But yeah, that's how that's how it looks. That's how it looks. so that so then I think this goes back to the thesis I was proposing to you, which is it's when it's when that the children's per it's not as if they're not Brandon Sheard (34:13.87) You Brandon Sheard (34:19.496) Absolutely. Jason M Craig (34:31.29) You know, they don't have a personality when they're young, but there is an amazing thing that happens when they begin to gain an appropriate autonomy over their own discipline, their own life, their own interests. And and this this matches up with the development of their brain, with with classical educational, you know, ideas that as they you know, as they develop they they gain something else that you have to get to know. And that's where the father has to Brandon Sheard (34:59.213) Yes. Jason M Craig (35:01.146) get to know them and this is not in case anybody's listening, I don't think you're saying Let them do whatever they want and then you just pay like whoever wants to do and go anywhere, you can do it and I'll pay for it and support you 'cause that's not good fathering either. Brandon Sheard (35:14.348) Right. Yeah, I feel like it's really hard. The all you gotta do is, it's so easy to be programmatic about it. And I do think we need programs, we need some sort of obvious domestic structure, especially if you got a house full of sanguins. Like we're gonna need to put some, let's put some. Jason M Craig (35:40.422) Yeah. Brandon Sheard (35:42.484) some order on things and you gotta get the melancholics and the phlegmatics like out of bed in the morning. Like guys, I know, it's funny, you know, the things that my children tend to be taken off guard by are the things that we do every day, you know, like yes, so we're gonna get out of bed now and get dressed. I know, and milk the cow, shocker. every day. It's hilarious. Jason M Craig

(36:15.728) Yeah, that's what with with with young kids, it's like, let me get this straight. You're shocked and upset that we're gonna do the one thing that is the most dependable reality. It's actually the first thing you did when you were born, which is go to sleep. We how is this the thing? This is like proof of original sin and the disorder I'm gonna have to beat out of you. How are you shocked and rebellious against the most Brandon Sheard (36:21.966) You Brandon Sheard (36:30.614) Yeah. Brandon Sheard (36:38.818) Yup. Jason M Craig (36:47.662) regular expected thing in your entire life besides existence itself is that you're gonna go to sleep. Yeah, you're gonna go to sleep. Anyway, yeah. That is just that is something. Brandon Sheard (36:55.149) Yeah. Brandon Sheard (36:58.946) That's so true. Yeah. And I think that I've, I've had a shift in my perspective, you know, as of two days ago or so these things happen slow, but, yeah, but I, and I haven't even read the sources on this, but I, I definitely started with the idea at least that, okay, family Aurarium, like regular prayer, same time, monastic Benedictine, we're circuitry, we're, going to take that option. Jason M Craig (37:07.702) good. Fresh wisdom. Here we go. Brandon Sheard (37:28.95) and we're just gonna super order everything, calendar. And that is true, obviously, we need an element of that and everything will be fine. But then there's St. I think it's St. John Bosco or St. Philip Neary, honestly, I forgot, this is how new this is to me. But their approach to education, specifically of children, is you create the conditions for them rather than then, you know, negatively beat the concupiscence out of them, which is part of it also, of course it is, specifically at a certain age. But you also owe it to them to not constantly put them in an occasion of concupiscence, of the occasion where they're going to have to fight these battles. You want to give them the context wherein they are, it's less of a struggle. to be virtuous is less of a challenge. And I think it is St. John Bosco, but that is the approach that he took with his students. And I'm really getting that now. And that means that, you your kids need to do things and they're probably not gonna be the same things that you want to do. Especially if you're a melancholic where your interests are like, you have two. Yeah, truth and beauty. the goodness like we don't, know, we don't, it's mainly truth and beauty. That's it. That's all we're interested in. It has to positive. Whereas like you're going to have children that they need to play. They need to maybe even do sports. And like that's, that's really good for them. That's so good. And you might have to go out of your way to do that. Jason M Craig (38:59.137) It's too positive. Brandon Sheard (39:26.27) And it's in order to give them this context. Like I have, you know, some of my children, more sanguine temperament. Like I am suspicious when people have a good

time with other people. I think they're pretending. This is not a joke. Like when people go to sports stadiums and they're, yeah. Jason M Craig (39:44.548) No, I know it's not. I am nodding a a knowing husband, right? Brandon Sheard (39:49.75) Yeah, so there's a degree of you know, innocence there where it's like, no, I really think it. I can't believe these people are having such a good time. Why are they all pretending? It's very weird. So my children though, I have children that are not like that. And they respond in a certain context when I can provide them like, you know, a good track team with a bunch of homeschooled Protestants in it. and they're running, you know, every day or several days a week, you will notice that this, it's really good for them. It creates this context for virtue in ways like just how you as, or me as a melancholic can't anticipate what delights people and what makes sense to them, because I'm in my own Plato's cave. But even so, I would not have anticipated the benefit. the virtue that it creates in my son just to be out there running with these guys. You know, and maybe there's a compromise like, you know, they're all a bunch of Bible belt evangelicals. They're not all trats or, you know, whatever the compromise might be. It's an institution, you know. It's a sport like chores. We don't do sports. We do chores, you know, whatever. Whatever I tell myself. Jason M Craig (41:08.166) Yeah. Brandon Sheard (41:17.37) and yet it's, been great. It's been very fruitful for them. And it's, that I think is, that's what fathering is. Just like you're saying you have to know, you have to know your kids, even when you don't know what you're doing at all. you just got to go for Jason M Craig (41:31.877) Yeah. The other thing you're bringing up, which I thi this comes up a lot in fraternists, you know, you you should start. You should do fraternists. You should start it. Because the the basic premise, the reason it hits a lot of men, is that you have to the especially if you if you have high Catholic ideals, you have these like you know, you you probably have a healthy dose of all you gotta do is you know, your your homeschool that matter, we're gonna do Yeah. I mean, you're even worse, you're homesteading, you know, all that. Brandon Sheard (42:00.952) Totally. Jason M Craig (42:01.71) You and I but I think all those fathers, that moment you realize that unlike God the Father, I cannot provide for all their needs. And I cannot teach them everything that they need to be taught. And I need to produce I think that's the environment you're actually describing. I need to produce the environment where other people can give what I don't have and I'm not threatened by it. You know, which is why like I love the context of fraternists, because the the emphasis is Brandon Sheard (42:25.566) Absolutely. Jason M Craig (42:30.202) We have a brotherhood of men. And this isn't, you know, you don't want to if the the spirit that we're

always trying to avoid is this is a boys youth group run by the dads. Like, you know, that's all. Don't do that. It's a it's a brotherhood of men that's like a whole bunch of uncles or godfathers, right? So we enjoy each other's company. In fact, if the young men weren't there, we'd still be having a good time. And By having this brotherhood, we have an image and I can that that they can come up to and then they can provide things that we can't provide. I mean they're you know, in my community and it's not always you know, I've got a I a man teaching one of my sons a very fine craft that I could never, never provide for him. I've got other men that are like really into working out. I don't know if you're looking at me, but I'm not into weightlifting. And and I'm like it probably should start. I'm in my forties, they s my wife's Your your muscles are gonna deteriorate and I'm like, I know that. I can see it happening. But there's you know, there's guys that can teach them the technique of this thing. And it's it's actually when you have communal life, 'cause that I think that thing we've been talking about, the temptation of you the all you gotta do is family. Brandon Sheard (43:17.218) me neither. Brandon Sheard (43:26.03) You Jason M Craig (43:40.991) is that we we don't recognize our own need. And it's just a really kind of ugly form of pride that I will provide in order everything and that God, there's nothing for me to recognize outside of myself that someone else will fail. Because I got this. And so let me ask you this. Speaking of okay, but with temperaments, the other thing you probably had to overcome is when you have the high ideal and then you're also trying to provide it as a father. Brandon Sheard (43:47.65) Yes. Jason M Craig (44:06.18) The feeling that if a kid wanted to do sports instead of lift buckets to pigs all day, like a sense of disloyalty to the vision. Was it something like, man, he w he was 'cause I know that's a thing like the melancholy feels is the disloyalty of someone who doesn't feel what they feel. like what what have they how how do they not see what I see, you know? Brandon Sheard (44:29.166) Absolutely. Yeah, I don't know. Jason M Craig (44:31.526) Is that something you you you sensed? Brandon Sheard (44:35.698) yeah, I'm sensing it right now and I don't know how I deal with it. No, yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah, absolutely. That is a, that's a real thing. Cause again, they're free humans and they're going to develop their own interests. And I, I can't coerce them. You know, that's, that's not going to work past the age of, I don't know, four. Jason M Craig (44:37.86) Ha Jason M Craig (44:41.283) On screen. That's how I do with it. Brandon Sheard (45:04.974) Maybe, maybe not. But yeah, that is, that's a real thing. it's, you know, for me and my household. I only have my own reticence to look back on, know, my own withdrawal, my own withholding of myself. If I feel like, well, they didn't catch this particular part of the vision. They're into this silly thing over here that I don't like at all. If that is a bad thing, and it might not be, that would just be my own vacuum. engagement with them earlier. That's what it comes from. But at the same time, know, the family, feel like understandably, we trads, we homeschooling, homesteading, all you got to do is some people. We understandably reacted against the corruption of society and all their institutions. Like, it's forgivable. I get it. Because it is gross. Mostly totally gross out there and you don't want your kids anywhere near it. so I get that, but, we've done the circle, the wagons, the Benedict option thing and found that we have the same corruption that's in the city. I mean, this, this is the oldest tale. This is the oldest thing. You know, we're trying to create an Eden post-lapsarian, by our own exertion and our right think we're. We are the smart trads. Like we're going to be good. We got this. That's exactly the hubris you're talking about. And ultimately, I think that that is important to an extent, but that's, need, we're not just called to that. This is why I like how you talk about a productive family because there's something of the mission involved in that. It's the St. Boniface option. Brandon Sheard (47:13.076) as I a good priest say recently. Like, he went out to the pagans, he cut down their stupid oak tree that was Thor's, that no one else was allowed to cut down. And he just did it. And he went and he evangelized them because he understood that he is the salt of the earth and the light of the world. And that's what we are. Jason M Craig (47:35.569) See, I don't know. I I I think that's I think that's a I think there's something missing. The the truth of the so-called Benedict Option, which by the way, so few people have actually read that book. and it was so sensational. that's like a placeholder. Okay, that's fine. Welcome to the internet. the thing that's right about it that I appreciate, opposed to the St. Boniface option, right? Because a lot of people will they will, for example, they will give out quotes from from scripture of Brandon Sheard (47:46.784) I haven't, I just like to criticize it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Brandon Sheard (47:59.181) Mm-hmm. Jason M Craig (48:04.906) You know, Saint Paul, the Great Commission, they would talk about St. Boniface going out. The reason I like the St. Benedict Option more for fathers is actually our order is more monastic than missionary. That's just like because we have we have a stability of place. because if and somebody pointed this out to me, gosh, it was the guy who wrote Pick Your Battle. but I'll think of his name in minute. They said he was thinking about the story of like Saint Francis. Brandon Sheard (48:09.837) Mm-hmm. Jason M Craig (48:31.726) like handing over his fortune to his dad, taking his clothes off and running away naked. He's like, you know, if his if his dad did that, a lot of people would be

out of work. 'Cause he was like running that there is a freedom that's necessary in celibacy that provides because I if I go cut down Thor's tree and then somebody slits my throat and I got a family that ate back home, it's like, all right, well, I appreciate the boldness. My my but I think the the place where the Brandon Sheard (48:37.134) Yeah. Brandon Sheard (48:59.19) at least imprudent. Jason M Craig (49:01.548) Yeah, at least there's a sec once you have children, at that point, you know, St. Paul's you know, kind of small side comment that the man who doesn't provide for his family is worse than an unbeliever, that becomes very real, right? And you become very enmeshed in and trying to take care of things that appear, you know, like filling your your grain bins and like being prudent with money, like all these things. Which I think this is why there's wisdom in the evangelical councils and the way religious life is celibate. It's why Saint Paul said, I wish you could be like me, then you could do what I do. Right, which is w what he basically said. If if but you have to be worried about your wife, which is true. so I think though that the place that we miss with the so called like circle of the wagons, I actually think in that case we what we've really discovered is we have an opportunity for really loving and belonging to one another, and we still don't. Brandon Sheard (49:41.548) Mm-hmm. Jason M Craig (49:54.617) And we still operate isolated in ways that I think, you know, let's just say back in the burbs, they're also isolated, you know, from one another and then it's just a different form of it. I think the hard part is learning how to love as a body. Brandon Sheard (50:04.963) Yeah. Brandon Sheard (50:08.972) Yes. Yeah, I would actually agree with you in spite of the fact that it sounds like I just contradicted you. the, cause I think the thing that I react to and that I am currently, in the process of reacting to is, the fear based retreat. because like you say, it's for that we continue to retreat, especially in melancholic types. This is a Jason M Craig (50:18.542) Yeah. Brandon Sheard (50:41.472) real temptation, even from, you know, the village, the community that where we are put in order to love each other. That that fear based withdrawal from society rather than even in your your monastery, your your your more or less monastic existence, you are a city on the hill that that is, you know, I think it's too simple to say that That's not evangelistic or missional. It definitely is. And I just, the, you know, the Benedictine monks, they do, while they are in a monastery and they're vowed to that, they can't be there because they fear the world or their own corruption. You can't, we can't do anything out of fear, which is a big thing to say as a melancholic. That's a real struggle. My most present reaction and impression to everything is fear of something going wrong. I don't even have to try. I see in every situation,

in every project, like there's roughly 17, maybe 18 things that could go wrong here. And I just deal with that. Yeah. Jason M Craig (51:57.543) Gosh, I am married. I am married to one of you people. I mean, not a man, but a melancholy. it's this is just so funny because that is I'm like, how did you even think of that? How was how how was I was a little bit late? How about like there was traffic? Not that I'm dead. There's another option besides I'm dead. I I promise, I promise. Brandon Sheard (52:08.322) Yeah. Yeah. Brandon Sheard (52:21.044) It's true, man. Those things, they're just there. Don't even have to try. Don't even have to try. Jason M Craig (52:24.996) Man, I'm not sure if this has been a good podcast then because I am like digging into things. Yeah, you're gonna turn over like, man, these mistakes we made. So okay. you you've you've you've given a lot of time already. I'd I'd like to just pivot a little bit though, like because you have been, I mean, the th to to to praise what you've done. And I've I've you know it's funny, I did people were always like, Are you aren't you connected with the Brandon Sheared guy? Brandon Sheard (52:34.136) Yeah. Jason M Craig (52:50.948) I really had not looked at any of your stuff. I hadn't listened to a single one of your podcasts. I didn't know. And then we met. I'm like, man, this guy's great. And and I still haven't listened to any your podcasts. not because I'm opposed to him. I just I just don't listen. Brandon Sheard (53:02.498) Neither have I. Jason M Craig (53:08.324) That being said, I went back and looked like, man, this guy has done the thing. He's done he he took a radical step. He was intentional. He did it for his family. He did it for high ideals. He did it for God. I believe that. And so good on you for that. What are the things though that have just been indispensable in the way of life that you've chosen that you can't imagine doing in other Brandon Sheard (53:30.274) Hmm. Boy, that my wife Lauren, matrimony, 100%. My wife Lauren is on board. Yeah, I mean, that's unequivocally the all you need. But that really is it. The fact that we, so we're both converts. We came into the Catholic Church together. So that there, that was... Jason M Craig (53:42.138) Match writing. Brandon Sheard (54:03.192) That was everything in a way. and then, you know, I told her what we were dating when we first met that, you know, I'm going to homes, my children are going to be homeschooled. This is how confident, confident, he, he, he, critical I was. And, but it, it, it didn't matter. She was on board with that. Having gone to public school her whole life. And now we're sending some of our kids to a classic school, out of necessity and because it offers a good that I cannot supply. Again, being a finite human. In fact, I'm going to teach there. it's so all of that is is really made possible because I my wife and I are on the same team and we always have been. We always have been from the beginning. which is not something I can attribute to any great character trait that I possess. But really, just God taking us to have meant more than we knew when he let us get married and gives us the grace of matrimony. So being on the same team and then endeavoring to resist my own temptations to not father. to retreat and be solo. And that's not gonna work. In fact, I was even just reading, what was the gospel? yeah, it was about St. John the Baptist, the visual of St. John the Baptist. One of the things he's gonna do. And I feel like this is everything we've been talking about. In the transition, the fulfillment of the Old Testament in the new. And it's mentioned, I think, in one of the minor prophets. Malachi, Maliki, however you say it. That's it. And yes, in the Dewey Rheims, or at least in my missile, it's yeah, turn the hearts of the fathers to their children. Jason M Craig (56:02.212) Yeah. Turn the hearts of children to their fathers. Jason M Craig (56:12.888) And the children to their fathers. Lest the land be struck with a curse. Or I think Dwei Reems or and I think Dwey Reims says, lest the land be anathema or something like that. maybe I'm wrong. No, that's been a central thing for you know, sword and spade fraternists is that it's not I think when we think of fatherhood, we think of I don't know, our leadership, our provision, our self sacrifice even. Brandon Sheard (56:15.553) Yeah. With a curse, that's... Brandon Sheard (56:24.28) Yeah. Yeah. Jason M Craig (56:41.7) When it's really it's really the core, odd core, the turning of heart to heart of a father to their children. And then there's something I and this is the men I look to for that that it's like these are the men I want to listen to. I love men with great ideas and ideals. You and I are two of them, I'm sure. We got some great ones. We could post them up. But the men who have maintained authority and trust and affection through their children's adolescence. Those are the men that know what they're doing. Because a lot of us lose them at the very moment when they need us the most. I think when there's a cause I think fatherhood has a connection to completion and perfection, right? As this is why when scripture said the father will complete the work he's begun. There's something about fatherhood that is meant to not plant the seed, because just males do that, bulls do that, but to bring the seed to perfection. Brandon Sheard (57:12.238) Hmm. Brandon Sheard (57:34.638) Yeah. Jason M Craig (57:36.623) And and when you to lose your children in the time of their perfection is a very sad thing. Now we all we both still have young kids, so maybe we'll look back and go, we lost someone. But I I think that is the task is to l is to turn our hearts to them. And they, in my experience, respond. When we turn our rods to them, there's a time for that. We turn our wisdom and speeches to there's a time for that. But when we turn our hearts to them and they they will turn

the heart back. It's it's beautiful. All right, Brandon. Brandon Sheard (57:46.318) Yeah. Brandon Sheard (57:53.08) Mm. Brandon Sheard (58:02.414) Yeah. So good, yeah, that's awesome. Jason M Craig (58:07.782) I think we're just gonna I I'm we're just gonna wrap up right there. You just gave good advice. and then I got to just riff on it and pretend I may make made it up. Brandon Shear, thank you for being on the Sword and Spade podcast. If anybody's interested, check out the Farmstead Meatsmith and if if your recognition of your need for other men in your life and the habit habitual formation of virtue and the temperaments, I just wanna point out that the new fraternist daily we call it the Brandon Sheard (58:11.211) Okay. Do it. Jason M Craig (58:36.512) it's right here. I'm gonna show it to you, Brandon. It goes in this little journal here. I've got it right here. and something fell out. It's called A Field Guide for Spiritual Combat, and it's based on Dom Scupoli's thing. And I'm just I'm just gonna show this to you live. So we we focus on one virtue a week, just one, right? Not all of them, just one. And so this one, see generosity. Brandon Sheard (58:41.39) Hmm. Jason M Craig (58:59.972) Right there. And then on this other side though, if you want to work on generosity, if you don't know your temperament, you can't work on generosity. So for the choleric, he might give strategically, but struggles to give without controlling how the gift is used. Right. Mm. Sanguine, this is me. He's generous in the moment, but inconsistent. He's easily distracted from sustained generosity. Melancholic, you ready? Brandon Sheard (59:00.749) Yeah. Brandon Sheard (59:07.63) Mmm. Brandon Sheard (59:15.501) Yeah. Jason M Craig (59:24.644) So it's hard for him to be generous because he fears scarcity deeply, making generosity feel risky and draining. Brandon Sheard (59:25.592) Give it to me. Brandon Sheard (59:32.319) Absolutely. Jason M Craig (59:33.316) And then y the the common vices you would have hoarding resources just in case and withholding yourself emotionally. So anyway, and then every day you fight that based on your temperament. so if anybody's interested, what Brandon I've been talking about, we invite you to join fraternist membership. And thank you for being on the Sword and Spade podcast, Brandon. Brandon Sheard (59:40.821) Absolutely. Brandon Sheard (59:52.952) Yeah. Yeah, it's my pleasure and if people also, if there's anyone out there that fears scarcity of resources in the meat department, you should go to my website, farmsteadmeatsmith.com. That's right. And come take a class and learn how to do it yourself. Yeah, I don't sell a lot of meat, but I teach people how to fish for their own meat. Jason M Craig (01:00:07.386) Yeah. Get some meat. Do it. No, you really are supporting a really good farm. There you go. Jason M Craig (01:00:21.04) That's awesome. So I was I told my kids I'm doing a podcast. They're setting up the skull pot right now. We're killing one to cook at the tonight on the nativity of St. John the Baptist or I'm sorry, the vigil of Saint John the Baptist, because tomorrow's our our parish patronal feast day. Cooking a pig. All right, Brandon. Thank you for everything that you do. God bless. Brandon Sheard (01:00:34.786) Yeah. That's great. Brandon Sheard (01:00:41.678) All right. Thanks, Jason.