התמלול המלא של Destruction by the Nuclear Family

right, is because when women are managing the household the same time as men are building their relationships at work, women are isolated in the home taking care of the household. And then if they want to build relationships outside of the household, it has to be done in the evening hours, like joining the or a book club or something like that. So then we're stuck with a, a situation where are just tired, just run down ragged. Like, like, that time to have some social interaction is, bonus time, Michelle: Right Kimberly: added on top of all of the work. A lot of women are just gonna not do that because it's exhausting to run the household and then also try to have a life on top of it. Michelle: You have to get a babysitter. You, yeah, it's, it's a lot of work. And then the social energy of going to meet new people, it's a lot Kimberly: top of a f- on top of a big day. Michelle: Right, right Kimberly: some of us, like I can have a big, a b- I can have a big busy day or I can be social. I, I Michelle: Not both. I would argue even women who are working outside the home, if even, even them starting over again, it's, it's a big deal. For men, too. Starting over again in a new community is a big deal. 00:04:13.000 --> 06:42.000 But I gotta have my own Michelle: Okay, number two, I, I hope no one saw this coming. But it's not good for the Earth. When we create this nuclear family and we take a little box and we say, "Okay, everything that I need I'm gonna put in this box, and I'm gonna lock it up and lock my family inside to keep us safe and to keep everything that I own inside this box," everyone needs their own widgets. Everyone's gonna buy a toaster. Everyone's gonna buy a microwave. Everyone's gonna buy a washing machine. Nobody's sharing those, those amenities. Nobody's sharing water. Nobody's sharing cooking utensils. And so we create this bad scenario for the, uh, ecology that we're manufacturing one of each widget for every single nuclear family instead of being in a community of people where we have one, one stove or one fridge or three fridges for eight families. That, that, that concept doesn't even really exist in my community. Kimberly: Mm-hmm Michelle: It does. It does, actually. It does. I wanna say I went in with some of my friends to buy a basketball hoop. So we have one basketball hoop. It's an outdoor thing, so it makes sense, and then my next-door neighbor, our across the street neighbor, he puts up a, a skating rink every year. It's one skating rink, one plastic liner, one set of lights and all of that, and everyone uses that, that skating rink. But those, th- those types of things are typically outdoor things, not indoor things. Oh, no, I take that back. In my community right now, I'm the only one who has a printer. And so I often get, "Oh, my daughter has a, a, a s- an assignment due tomorrow. Can you print this for me?" And I love that because no one else needs to buy a printer if they're gonna print one thing per year. I'm happy to do that. Kimberly: Originally human beings started out with, as sharers. And then as we built up this nu- these nuclear families, you're right, I think it absolutely has made us have to overconsume, which is also part of a capitalistic society. So I, I mean, we've talked about that a little bit too, but I do think that they go hand-in-hand. Capitalism is incredibly destructive for the planet Michelle: Right. And I, I just have this feeling like that started in the '80s where everyone had to have one of everything. When money became easier. Kimberly: the '50s Michelle: Yes. Okay. Okay Kimberly: and washing machines and appliances were supposed to make wife's job easier Michelle: Was so she could do more things? Kimberly: Yeah. Michelle: She can go to work and do the laundry I, I just think this idea, even all of us need one car or two cars per family, sometimes three cars per family when you have a kid who's older. That's a lot of waste Kimberly: It is. 00:06:42.000 --> 10:31.000 Can we do with just one car? Kimberly: Oh, and so I will tell you about the cars. So I live with my daughter who is 22, and then my son who's eight, and then also, um, nearby my mom And my son and my mom are both in wheelchairs. when my daughter's car died, we decided we would just try really hard to see how, if it could work for us to share a car. And I would say 85% of the time we don't have any issues because she works at night. I, uh, I don't like to go out at night, so I'm, you know, if I need the car to take people to appointments, I do that during the day when she's home. But there's just been too many times when one or the other of us would have to Uber it, and it's usually gonna be her. So we are starting to talk about her getting her own car again Michelle: I mean, it's bu- it's by necessity. You don't just have a spare car from the neighborhood that you could borrow Kimberly: Well, and also, if you think about this, putting n- nuclear families in houses spreads out the entire system of support. So your one grocery store is, you're gonna have to drive to get there because you gotta pass the whole entire neighborhood of houses before you can get to the places where you can do your shopping or run your errands or take care of your, your, you know, go to the doctor. All of those things have to be done by car because we have sprawled out all of our nuclear families Michelle: Right? We all want our, our locked box, but then we all want land around our locked bl- locked box. So I would argue that putting everything that we own in this locked box promotes widget envy, ownership envy. So I have a really nice piece of art in my house, and I have to invite people over to come look at it or enjoy it. Or, and my neighbor has a hot tub. We have to be invited over to use that hot tub. And so I'm like, "Oh, I really want a hot tub on my roof like that guy has." But I'm not gonna do that because that's two hot tubs in the same neighborhood, and we really don't need

that. But th- it promotes envy, which is not a really healthy thing for, for a community Kimberly: There's a, there's an entire system that's designed to make us want to have our own stuff and our own things. And you're right, I hadn't thought of it in these terms before, but having us each have our own lockbox to store our shit, uh, just promotes wanting to have the same shit that the people next door have. Michelle: I'm differentiating outdoor things from indoor things, but on my front porch I have about six or eight, um, outdoor hockey sticks, ball hockey sticks. And any of the kids in the neighborhood can just come and use them and put them back. And then I have a ball bin too, which has the basketballs and the, the ball hockey balls, and the, you know, all sorts of different kinds of balls for the kids to play with. But that's for the community, and people are really respectful about it. And they use the stuff, and they take care of it, and then they put it back. My across the street neighbor, he's got the ball hockey nets. So the kids will go to their house and get the nets, and my house and get the balls and the, and the sticks, and they'll play, and then they'll put everything back. And this is just such a lovely community experience, and it's exactly what I wanted for my kids. But this idea of everything that's in my locked house is mine, I think it's, it's not healthy. But I don't, I don't see a way out of it Kimberly: I think that the reason why this is working for you in your neighborhood is because you have been intentional about building that kind of community. I don't think that that's particularly typical. Michelle: The next one is the idea of a nuclear family oftentimes move people away from multi-generational support. Kimberly: Yes Michelle: we move away from our parents, our children move away from us, and they end up completely on their own and they rely on the community, which may or may not be built, for their support. 00:10:31.000 --> 12:30.000 Creepy college-kid robots Michelle: I saw a video of a little teeny robot with a big bow on it, and I think it's called Bowbot or something. And it's the daughter who just went away to college who can take that b- robot around and can, like a little camera, like a Roomba camera, and bring it up to the mom and say, "I'm here, Mom." Like, the kid has become the robot, even though they're 3,000 miles apart. She can just go up to her mom anytime and have a conversation, if the mom's at home. But I don't see, that- that's not the same thing as Kimberly: thing? Michelle: I think so. Let me, let me look, 'cause I, it, it looked really cute. Hold on Kimberly: I mean, I could see it being a real thing 'cause it's o- it's only mildly disturbing. Like, it's not that different from a FaceTime. But it's a little bit like, like the AI from hell, like monster, like Ex Machina a little bit. You, did you ever see that movie? Michelle: No Kimberly: Girl. This is a timely time to watch it if you... It's a, a couple of years old, but it, it, it, it'll stick with you Michelle: There's a little white robot just Roomba-ing in toward the mom. And it says, "I can take pictures of you, too." So it's just basically a, Kimberly: No, that's creepy Michelle: the floor that, um, is asking the mom, "Where's the dog? I'm gonna go find the dog." And now it's, she's just running around the house looking for the dog. And it's point of view, you have a daughter that moved out, and she's just running around looking for the dog. That's Kimberly: So Michelle: funny Kimberly: a product you can buy or is this something that someone made up just as a... Michelle: I think it's a product you can buy Kimberly: Okay. Okay. Well, yeah. Okay Michelle: See what this, so this is an interesting thing to me because the reason you move out is to develop yourself as a human being. And if you're still with all those ties with, "I can just run around and look for my dog anytime I want," it defeats the benefits of go- going away and maintains the downsides of going away, which is you don't get the hugs, you don't get the support, you don't get the casual conversations, you know? 00:12:30.000 --> 17:07.000 Leaving the lockbox Kimberly: Yeah, and I think that part of the detriment of a nuclear family is when, when it's time to grow up and move out, a nuclear family is so defined inside the lockbox, there's such a s- like a, a harsh separation. It's so abrupt, and it's so unnatural that you just, like, you get to a certain age, and because it's time for college or you get a new job, you just leave, and your entire support network is left behind. And I, I don't find that p- very natural. And, uh, there's a lot of reasons that people decide to, to leave, and I'm not suggesting that no one should ever leave their, their hometown. But I am suggesting that m- making that the norm is, problematic Michelle: I think it's more than making it the norm. In our era, it was stigmatized. If you didn't leave by 18, then something was wrong with you developmentally Kimberly: Yeah. Michelle: Like your life Kimberly: Yeah Michelle: failing to launch, right? Kimberly: Oh, yeah. Oh my God. Yeah Michelle: So you have to be in your parents' locked box until you're 18, and then you can't be in it Kimberly: No, then you can't be in it. And y- the whole goal is to move out and form your own lockbox. Michelle: Right Kimberly: Get your own little nuclear family. And if you fail to do that, then you've also failed to launch Michelle: Right. Right Kimberly: and also you mentioned multi-generational. I, I think that we also, uh, because we are nuclear families, I think we miss out on a lot of wisdom. like, I, I think that the older, older generations, like I would say our parents' age, they've been through a lot. They have a lot of wisdom to share, and we've sort of set up these systems where the, we dismiss what they have to say because they're old instead of them as the, the wise ones within the communities

Michelle: I think grandparents are extremely good for children. So I, I had my kids eight years apart, and my older child grew up around her grandparents just 30 minutes away. And she benefited so much from their attention, their love, their wisdom. She listened to them. She laughed with them all the time. She has a good relationship with them. My younger son, we moved away when he was four or five, and he doesn't know his grandparents at all really. And it's a very different kind of, uh, child when they have a relationship with grandparents versus when they don't. And I think my son missed out Kimberly: I think also you being a parent have since then, miss- missed out on the opportunity to have your own parents involved and be... Uh, like, I don't know where we got this idea that launching out into the world means that we no longer lean on each other. I, wish that I could have had a mom to lean on, like my entire adult life I wished that I had that, and I just, I didn't. Maybe because I moved far, far away. Now that my kids are older, I really hope that they, that they acknowledge that they can always lean on me. And I'm not talking about helicopter parenting or, like, I'm gonna go into the job interview for them or call their bosses when things go bad. I'm not talking about that level of intrusion. What I am talking about is when things get hard, they can lean on me, and sometimes they want me to help solve problems, and sometimes they just wanna hear that, yeah, life is hard sometimes, and th- this, this problem is not gonna eat at you forever. And I think we just, we've, we've really, we've, we've I think this, this move away from the nuclear family has really discouraged us from continuing to lean on the people that raised us Michelle: But it's this, Kimberly: that raised them Michelle: it's a very weird juxtaposition between pushing the nuclear family, but once you're too old for that nuclear family to go create your own, you shouldn't be there anymore. You shouldn't lean on them. You shouldn't be talking to your grandparents about life and hearing their wisdom and hitting, hearing their stories and sitting with them late in the evening just talking about nothing. But we should, we absolutely should. There's so much benefit to that Kimberly: And I do think that a big part of it is this lockbox. Michelle: Right Kimberly: know, our own houses, our own apartments, we don't have immediate access to the people who really need to be supporting us 00:17:07.000 --> 19:58.000 Casual community contact Michelle: So there's an idea post-COVID when we were working from home for a couple of years, and then corporate America decided, "No, we have to be back in the office because you're gonna run into people in the hallway, and you're gonna run into them before and after meetings or at the cafeteria at lunch and at the water cooler." And I was kind of frustrated at that because I was very productive on my own without going to the office. But it's absolutely true is that those, those casual interactions, I run into my neighbors all the time, or if my parents lived in my basement, we'd run into them three or four times a day when we wanted to, and they still would have room to retire to their own space. But we would still sort of casually interact with them in a way that we don't have to say, "Okay, well, come over at 6:00, and then I'll feed you, and then you can leave by 8:00 because you wanna go and get in bed by whatever." That's very... It takes a lot of effort to, to interact that way, whereas if they were more of a, less of a locked box concept, people would just come and go as, as they please and run into each other and share those human interactions. Kimberly: I don't think that we have a, a framework for understanding what that would look like. Like, Michelle: Right Kimberly: don't, it's not a common enough thing in our society for us to really appreciate how different our lives would be if we had that immediate access to more support people Michelle: So let me point out that you actually did do that. You had, you had this open door concept when you were, when your kids were about teenage years through a little bit older than that. And I love that so much, and I really wanted to create that here because we have so many kids that I know, and they're on the younger side. They're like 8 to 15 right now is, is the sort of core group of kids. But I have a very old dog who's just crotchety, mean, and he bites at all the kids. So while I, I love for the kids, I would love for the kids to come in and just feel free at my house, they won't do that 'cause of my old dog. But you had that for years Kimberly: When we had that, I was the matriarch of that system. And I have heard from a lot of the teenagers and young adults now that that was incredibly formative for them to have that kind of easy access to someone with some wisdom. I wish that I also had other adults in the house that I also could re- lean on because that's, that's a lot of weight to carry the burdens of my own kids, my own family, and then also their friends who don't have the support in their own homes. I, as, I, I love that we did that, and I wish that we had more support network rather than less Michelle: But if we took it to the next level that maybe your next door neighbor also had that open door policy, you could say, "You know what? Kids go to their house tonight." And you'd have that support. Or all of you go over there and you have a, have a cup of coffee with your neighbor and you have that support that you need too Kimberly: Yeah. I think it's really, it's really rare these days Michelle: Yes Kimberly: a community like that. 00:19:58.000 --> 22:29.000 Neighbor avoidance era Kimberly: I live in a town home con- complex, and there are only a handful of town homes within, you know, easy distance. And I have found that ... I'm not gonna call you out millennials, but yeah, I'm calling you out. Kimberly: I'm not gonna

call you out millennials, but yeah, I'm calling you out. So I, I wanna know my neighbors, so I've introduced myself to everybody that I can, and get to know them a little bit. what I found is now I have become that person in the neighborhood that everybody wants to avoid because they're afraid that I'm gonna talk to them. This is what I'm thinking. This is what I'm thinking because when I walk down the street, uh, and other people are out walking their dogs, like, they'll pull their caps down a little bit low or they'll, oh, veer off this other direction, veer off this other direction. And I think it's because they're afraid to have to get into a conversation with me because I'm very outgoing and friendly out there Michelle: As you should be. Okay, so it's either the nuclear family and locking ourselves in our own boxes, or it's social media or a combination of those things, or COVID, how COVID hit the millennials. But I think we're, the, the society is now promoting this individualism of, "Don't talk to me. I don't wanna be interacting with you," when that's the most healthy things human can do, humans can do, is interact with people Kimberly: And I actually feel for them because I am the same way. I want to interact with people, but on my own terms. I really don't enjoy it when I'm out doing something like walking my dog and people wanna come and stop and talk to me. So like I get it, I get it, but also that's the only way to build a community in a neighborhood is that you have to, you have to just be willing to take that time and, and get to know people Michelle: I think it depends on where you are in life too, because I, I have a commercial street that crosses the street I live on. So my, my street's quiet, but if I go one block, it's the commercial street that everyone goes to. And I never walk down that street without running into somebody that I know. And sometimes they'll want to stop and chat, and sometimes I'll say, "I'm, I'm kind of busy. I've got to go." But I, 100% of the time I run into somebody that I know, or my son's friends or whatever, and I have to be prepared for that. And most of the time I really like that. Oh, who am I gonna see today? Who am I gonna chat with? What updates am I gonna get? And sometimes I'm just, "Oh, I don't look good today. I don't feel good today. I don't want to talk to people today." 00:22:29.000 --> 27:22.000 Read social cues, friend Kimberly: Yeah, and I think that we've lost the ability as, as s- like social beings to read those cues. Michelle: 'Cause we don't do it enough Kimberly: I think because Gen X, we like, we grew up on the streets like feral, and so we had to learn how to interact with people. We had to learn how to, deescalate a situation that could turn into a bullying situation. Like, we had to, we had to talk face-to-face with people, so we had to learn these skills. And if the people who these skills put those into play, we wouldn't really have a big problem. Because, like, for... So

for now, when they pull their ha- hats down over their eyes, like that's a cue to me. Like, I get it. You don't wanna talk right now. So I don't force them to stop and talk to me just because I happen to be passing by them. But I do think that part of the reason why others are so reluctant to even open up that door is because there are a lot of people who don't read those cues. And so when you have the conversation, "Hi, how's it going? Uh, catch up on this and, and, and that," and then the conversation comes to a close and it's a natural time to leave, there are people who will just keep on talking 'cause they just don't understand. They don't read those cues. And so I understand, like I get it, but I happen to be one of those people that can read the cues. So just, you can talk to me and if it's not the right time, I will leave Michelle: There's a woman on our street who I absolutely adore. She is the, the neighborhood gossip. She knows everybody's business, and she goes and seeks out everybody's business. And I kind of like that because if I want to know what's going on with somebody, I know I can just run into her on the street and I'll get the whole download, right? Not, not out of gossip, which is a whole nother conversation. Let's get there someday. Um, n- not, not just to gossip, but I want to know what's going on with people. If, if there's an older man who moved out, did he die or did he go to a home? I want to know those things without having to be so rude as to ask, "What happened to your husband?" So she's a great resource, and she's incredibly self-aware because she could honestly talk for 30, 40 minutes on the street, and she doesn't. So she talks to me, she downloads the stuff, she asks me about me, and then she says, "Well, you have to go. I don't want to interrupt your day." And then she just leaves. And I love that. Kimberly: that person. I- that's what I go, I w- I want to be that person. But now I feel all weird because I've become that person, and they, and the other people in the neighborhood don't appreciate it Michelle: So just make sure you're not projecting, 'cause no one said this to you Kimberly: No, no, no, no. No, I- let me tell you something. So there's a neighbor downstairs that had, um, two big dogs and then all of a sudden one day they had one big dog and one tiny dog, the same breed. And I was like, "Okay, that's weird." So I start talking to them. I'm like, "Oh, uh, you know, I s- you got a new puppy." like, "Yeah, got a new puppy." And so we just start talking. So every time I'd walk by their little porch and they'd be sitting out there, I'd be like, "Oh, hi. So look how big you're getting," and all this stuff. So one time they were coming home from a thing and I stopped and I was like, "Oh man, you look so pretty. Did you go out to a thing?" 'Cause she was all dressed up. You know, she was with her husband. And she's like, "Yeah, we had l- you know, lunch," whatever. And then they go in and as they're walking over the threshold of their doorway, I hear the husband say, "Oh yeah, I see what you mean" Michelle: That she's such a lovely, nice person who's willing to compliment me on my dress Kimberly: was not the vibe. No, that was not the vibe. No, the vibe was like, "Yeah, wow, she..." Like, I, I could... The vibe was she's too extra Michelle: The healthy, normal things for humans in relationships are to be the way that you're being. So please don't change Kimberly: I know. But it's been really hard because now I feel, I, I feel like that person everyone wants to avoid. And I don't want to be that. I don't want people to avoid me. I just, uh, I just wanna, I just wanna get to know some people. 'Cause I do think, I do think that the way that we get out of social and cultural mess that we're in right now is by building communities, building back communities. I think COVID really screwed us up, and we have... We just lost the ability and the willingness to do that, and I think we have to recover it Michelle: I think there are other factors at play too, especially in Minneapolis and some other cities in the US. There's this no- nobody trusts each other anymore because people are being reported to ICE and there is this m- masked, unmarked secret police force that can just go into your house and kidnap you. So I understand why people are a little bit hesitant to get to know one another Kimberly: Yeah 00:27:22.000 --> 30:43.000 Homogeneity vs diversity Michelle: So, uh, sort of on that note, related to that, this idea of, of nuclear families and then you can take your nuclear family basically and plop it anywhere in the world, somewhere else from your community, I think what it does is move people into more homogenous communities. You're gonna look for the socioeconomic demographic. You're gonna look for the lifestyle that you have been used to. You're gonna look for the schools that are u- that you're used to with your kids. And I think it creates pockets of communities that are really homogeneous. And I will, I will die on this hill. Diversity is good. Diversity is necessary. Diversity is like even biologically what keeps us living. So diversity is good. Homogeny is not good. And if we're moving toward homogeny, that's not good. We need diversity in our communities Kimberly: okay, let's, let's get real When I move, and I've moved a lot, I absolutely am guilty of that. I will look for communities that feel more like me. So it's not something that we can only say, "Well, other people should be thinking about moving into more diverse communities," because, because most of us are guilty of that. And I, and I'll be the first one to admit that that's one of the things that I look for a community and it, I c- conflate safety with comfort. And so I will say, "Does that feel like a community s- that feels safe to me?" And if it feels like a community that it's uncomfortable, then I will think t- I will, I will equal that in my head. Like, "No, that's, that's

not a safe place for me to be." So I wanna live somewhere safe. I think everybody deserves to live somewhere safe. But I do think that there's this crossing over of, of safety and comfort, and I don't know how we get past that. But I do think that you're spot on that the entire system of, of nuclear families is a contributing factor to us continuing to want to be more with people that are like us, we think are like us Michelle: I made a small decision when I got here, and it w- kind of, kind of was forced into that decision, but I made a small decision when I got here. When I first moved to Canada, I was obviously an American coming into a company, and my direct boss was American. So my whole team of Canadian people were very suspicious of me. They thought that I was coming in to dictate an American way of business and to sort of take over the, the, the Canadian vibe that they had and turn it into an American vibe, 'cause my boss and I were both American. And I worked very, very hard to, to convince them, "No, I'm, I'm buying a house here. I'm adapting. I'm learning the language. I really want to adapt to all the best of, of what Canada has, and I wanna learn, and I wanna be part of the community." And the thing that convinced my team more than anything else was that my son went to public school here instead of private school. So I didn't sort of fly in from a different country and put him in an isolated school. He was in school with a great diversity of people in a public school, because public school takes everybody, and this was such a great thing. And I, I could have taken him out after a year, and I, I didn't. I wanted him to stay there because of the reaction I got from my Canadian team. Because if I'm genuinely saying I want to adapt to this community, but then I put my kid in a, in a isolated situation, that's not really genuine. So that, that small decision, m- it, it said a lot toward my, my relationship with my team 00:30:43.000 --> 32:05.000 Parental burnout is a real thing Michelle: Another reason the nuclear family is difficult, can be challenging, is creating parental burnout. So when I was, when I first had my daughter, I had a nanny, and that nanny had a network of other nannies. And so they were like five nannies and eight kids, and they got together at the park every single day, and the nannies had the support of each other. I didn't have that, so if, if-- A lot of people don't have that. They don't have the support of other people. If you're a stay-at-home parent and you're with the same kids all day long and all night long, that's 24 hours a day with the same people without a lot of other support. And this idea of, "Okay, I'm gonna take these five kids in my neighborhood to practice tonight, and then tomorrow you're gonna take all those five kids to practice," that prevents a lot of par-parental burnout. And this idea of having just, I, I have to have my own car and take my own kid to their own practice, even though I live next door to someone who's on their team, that's a lot of burnout that could be avoided by sharing resources Kimberly: That's interesting that you say that, 'cause what I wonder is, is the, is, is part of the problem that we don't wanna ask for help, or is part of the problem that we don't wanna, we don't wanna be available to help when we're asked? Michelle: I'm sure that it's both. Kimberly: it's a little bit of both. Michelle: I think it's both. You're right. You're right. I don't wanna, I don't wanna blame everything on the nuclear family. I think it's just one thing that I've noticed is being with the same kids all day long can be exhausting 00:32:05.000 --> 37:08.000 Different rules in different environments Kimberly: And also giving kids the opportunity to learn the rules and expectations of different adults. Michelle: Right Kimberly: other adults are gonna have those different expectations. I do sometimes have a problem when adults who have children don't want their parents have different rules and expectations of their children. I think that it's healthy for people to have different rules and expectations. Now, I'm not talking about things like, like, like, like you feed them. I think things like that, uh, how you manage their health. A lot of those things I think are off the table. Parent- the grandparents can have an opinion about that, but it's up to the parents and, and I think that, that we should be supportive. But if, if, if you have a rule that you don't jump on the couch, and I at my house have a, don't have a rule where you can't jump on the couch, I think that there's no problem with allowing kids to understand that there are different rules in different locations. And that's funny actually, now that I say that, that I put on the grandparent the role of the one who lets the kid jump on the couch, because oftentimes it's the flip, right? Michelle: Most of the time. Kimberly: let their kids do everything, but I don't see that, like, in my household. Like, I as the, as a grandparent, I'm not a grandparent yet, but I'm hoping to be one day. But I as a grandparent am gonna be way more permissive. Like, I will let the... I- if I'm not mistaken, I'm pretty sure that I might have been the first person to your kid eat Rocks Michelle: I remember you telling a story that my, what, six-year-old, seven-year-old was at your house and you said, "Hey, do you want some Kool-Aid?" And she said, "What's Kool-Aid?" Kimberly: Yeah. Michelle: she needs that Kimberly: and I acknowledge though too that this is ca- uh, I can't only feed them Pop Rocks and MandM's, right? Like, that was a special, it, it was a special occasion. We were out at a special thing. My kids were getting treats, and Pop Rocks was one of them. And so I give her the opportunity to, to be exposed to that. I think that's a very different thing than telling your parents like, "No, I don't want them eating peanuts," and then you feed them peanut butter anyway because you just like

don't wanna respect what the parents have to say. The, I think they're very different things Michelle: And let me take off the table those parents that you've gone no contact with, the grandparents that you've gone no contact with. I respect that. That's the right thing to do. That's not what we're talking about. Kimberly: Yeah, no. Michelle: Right? Kimberly: talking about the nuances of having different rules and expectations. Um, and, and that beautiful thing is that when you have more of a multi-generational community, you learn those things. You, you, you learn those things i- in a more natural way Michelle: I think it's absolutely hilarious that you're the one who lets your kids jump on the couch, because you're right, that's a grandparent thing to do, and you'll, you'll let your grandkids do that. Our father just happened to be very, very strict about belongings. If it's inside his lockbox, you're not messing with it Kimberly: No. No. Oh, oh, yeah. didn't even want my kids, I'm telling stories. He didn't even want my kids mess with my things in my lockbox Michelle: Right. Right Kimberly: if it was something that he wouldn't have let them mess with in his lockbox. And so he would yell at them for doing things in my household that they were allowed to do. Michelle: And you put a stop to that Kimberly: I Michelle: pretty early Kimberly: said, I said, "They're allowed to do this. You, you, you can't, you can't yell at them for doing something that, that they're not in trouble for doing." Michelle: But if they grew up in a multi-generational household or community, they'd get used to different rules and the, and the older people would get used to different rules, and the k- the parents would get used to different rules, and that's okay. I mean, that's not okay, that's healthy. That's what you should be doing Kimberly: I think also they would have exposure not only to more people multi-generationally, but they would have more exposure to people in their own generation. Like, if you, if we didn't have lock-box nuclear families, we would have cousins and aunts and uncles and all, all of these people. And, and, a- and just the, the, the exposure to that many people is going to make you a healthier, more well-rounded human being than being, let's say, a, a, a three or a four-person nuclear family in a lockbox. It's, it, it... And we grew up in a four-person lockbox. So I, you know I don't know if I want to say if, like, if I have the right to judge it or don't have the right to judge it. You do you. You do you, boo, if you want to have a, a nuclear family in a lockbox. I mean, we're, we're set up for that. Michelle: We're not saying they're all toxic. We're not. We're just pointing out some of the things, s- societal trends that, that look good on the surface but aren't Kimberly: and the benefits that we could have if we didn't have that Michelle: Right. Right. 00:37:08.000 --> 38:33.000 Let's bring back skill trading and sharing Michelle: So the next benefit is this idea of skill trading. So I will do your laundry, but then you have to weed my garden. I have my next door neighbor, I told you we have this basketball hoop together. He always brings it down in the wintertime, always forgets to put it up in the spring. So I call other neighbors and I say, "Can you help me?" 'Cause it's not a one-person job. So we all resource share, skill trading. Resource sharing, I meant skill, skill sharing Kimberly: I would do almost anything for anybody if, ick, I could avoid doing laundry. Michelle: Okay, put it in the chat. She said that Kimberly: Seriously, seriously. Nothing weird or sexual. I'm not talking about that. But I will, I will clean your toilets. I would rather clean a toilet than do laundry. I hate laundry so much. So yes, oh my God, if we could, if we could do that kind of sharing, yes, Michelle: Because some people don't mind that. And I would say most people, most people in our demographic don't have the money to have someone come in and do their laundry. But if you have something you're really good at, let's say you're good at, at sewing or crocheting, and you wanna do something for someone else and they wanna do this for you, that's, that's amazing. I don't see it very often Kimberly: I think it's starting to come into fashion, in some communities, but I don't think it's, it's, it's mainstream enough to, to really make a dent yet 00:38:33.000 --> 41:32.000 Playdates vs free range Michelle: I'm gonna make an argument that the advent of play dates was the downfall of childhood If we have to make arrangements, text with the other parent. I mean, luckily we can do that. We don't have to call them on the phone. But text with the other parent, "Let's get together at this hour and then we're gonna pick them up, up at this hour. Who's gonna feed them? What are they gonna wear?" I'm, oh. We were just pushed out in the street in the middle of the summer and we would spend the entire day doing interesting things with interesting people. And yeah, it got boring a lot of the times, but looking back now, those summers were glorious Kimberly: They really Michelle: And our parents never drove us to a thing. If we had a birthday party, "Okay, here you can walk. You can take your bike." Kimberly: Oh, yeah. Michelle: So this Kimberly: totally Michelle: playdates create walls, or the walls create the need for playdates, and it just requires a lot of work on the parents' part. So I would say playdates, activities, sports teams, things like that, all of that creates a lot of work for parents. And I am as guilty as anybody of doing all that work, but it does create a lot of work that could be shared. It could be different if we were, if the kids were more free to just run around Kimberly: I do think that that's part of the problem is that we, because of the, the, the culture and the society that we grew into where we didn't feel like it was safe to let our children out, we also then really couldn't not

let them have exposure to other children. So play dates became necessary when free play, you know, free range pl- playtime became less and less accessible. So I, I don't think the play dates themselves were problematic in, I think the thing that led to us having to force play dates in order for our kids to have some social exposure is the problem Michelle: I'm gonna put a contention out there without any actual evidence, but I can look it up later and we'll put it in the comments if needed. I believe that society, that letting kids roam around today is so much safer, but we know about every single incident now. Like, a kid goes missing, you might see it on the back of a milk carton when we were kids. Now, there's a kid who's missing for three hours and the whole community's in there looking for this kid, right? It's just much more prevalent. It's in our face with the social media and, um, media in general, and flock cameras and all of this. It's, it's everywhere when something goes wrong. But I think it's a safer time now than it was in the '80s Kimberly: I think that there's one, one thing that we had in the '80s though that felt safer then that we don't have now, and that is that we had the entire neighborhood looking out for us. Now we kinda don't have that. So if our kids went out and play, to play, I would not expect that there would be, you know, the elderly couple down the street keeping an eye out for them, is what we kinda had. So we might have more technology, but we don't have as much social support Michelle: Yep, it's, comes right back to the community. 00:41:32.000 --> 42:51.000 When tragedy strikes Michelle: Okay, I've got, I've got one more a, a negative aspect of having these nuclear families that are just you in your own box with your own nuclear family, and that is that the death of a parent is hugely detrimental to that child's life. I mean, obviously the death of a parent is going to shift that child's life no matter what. But if they're in a multi-generational household, they have community, they can probably more likely stay in the lifestyle and the life, the same school, the same friends, the same, uh, other adults around them if the parent dies. But if, if you're in a nuclear family where one parent dies and you don't really have that community around you, that kid's gonna have to move or maybe go to someone that they don't know. And that to me is a much more devastating experience losing a parent than if everything else sort of stays stable and they can deal with that losing of the parent in a way that their life isn't going to be completely turned upside down on a practical level Kimberly: I just wanna reiterate what you just said. It, a parent is going to change their life. And I think what you're talking about is that if we also had the support of the, of, of not nuclear, but bigger families, more supportive families, we could mitigate the amount of change that a person has to go through at a time when any kind of change is gonna feel overwhelming because of the loss of a parent Michelle: That's exactly what I'm trying to say. 00:42:51.000 --> 45:29.000 Abuse hidden by isolation Kimberly: Another thing that I don't like about the nuclear family is that it makes it so much easier for abuse to happen and no one to see it Because if abuse is happening in a household where everybody in the household is either abused or abuser, there's, there's no one to step in. And I think not only the fact that no one's physically there to see it, but because we have placed so much power in the hands of the nuclear family that even when people from the outside do see it, we f- we feel powerless to do anything about it. Like, we all just kinda go like, "Oh, like, none of my business." I think that's changing. I do think that that's changing. But I think it's, it's very hard for people, for, for children who are being abused to get the help, partly because no one sees it, and then partly because even when we see it, we're like, "Well, that's not my business." Michelle: Yeah, you're absolutely right. Um, I'm just reading a memoir of a girl who was abused by her stepdad from 5 years old to 14 years old, and she got it together enough to talk to her mom about it, and her mom's response was, "Children need a father, and so you're gonna have to forgive him because it's the Christian thing to do. You're gonna have to forgive him because we need a nuclear family. That's the best place for kids, so we need a nuclear family, and you're gonna have to forgive him, and he promises not to do this again." So this girl now is completely disincentivized from telling her mother again because she's being accused of not being able to forgive him for this. So I think it's even bigger than that. It's even more insidious than that. When you lock yourself in your own lockbox, no one else can see it, but you also are so attached to the idea of a nuclear family that you don't wanna let it go, when really the right thing to do is to let a member of that family go when they're the ones, the one being abusive or dysfunctional Kimberly: There are big communities of people that are multi-generational and that have lots and lots of support that have a lot of abuse going on. They might be large communities, but they're also isolated from the outside world. So like cults or religious groups. There are big groups of people who, where abuse runs rampant. But it's partly because they are a nuclear family, just bigger, they're isolated in, in many of the same Michelle: You're right. This memoir that I was reading was about, um, a, a particular religious sect who... And they were all cousins and brothers and sisters because it was a polygamous community. So yeah, but that, that community was big and had lots of multi-generation and lots of kids around, but it was all isolated from anything else. So you're absolutely right Kimberly: like a nuclear family but bigger Michelle: Right Kimberly: all the, the downsides

of the lockbox family 00:45:29.000 --> 48:03.000 Schooling, ideologies, and control Michelle: One of the benefits of not being locked into a nuclear family is the kids having community, being exposed to other people. And I would argue one of the greatest ways to expose our kids to other people is through school. They go to school, they learn about different teacher styles, they learn about different students. They're gonna be annoyed by that dorky kid that they don't like, and they're gonna be wanting to be friends with that popular kid. Th- this is part of, of, of community and developing community. And in 2026, what is the right wing pushing? Homeschooling. Homeschooling. Don't expose your kids to things that are, you know, subversive like community and supporting each other and diversity and equity and inclusion. Don't ex- don't expose your kids to those things in school. Teach them at home because then you can control exactly what messages they get Kimberly: There it is, control. That's exactly it. And, and I don't think we've talked very much about this, but the, I think people who are pushing the, the nuclear family are the people who are in control of their own little worlds and want to make sure that people like them maintain control over their little nuclear families Michelle: Exactly. Exactly. So I, I saw a, a clip. I think there's a reality show with Sean Duffy and his wife and kids, and apparently their daughter got into Harvard, and he said, "No, you can't go to Harvard because we're Catholics, and it's extremely important for, for you to go to a Catholic school." But Harvard is... Boston is one of the most Catholic cities in the US, and instead they're sending her to the University of Chicago, which isn't more Catholic, but the, the reason, the, the reason that Sean Duffy stated for not wanting her to go to Harvard was that they're gonna get lots of subversive messages like community and sharing and diversity and inclusion Kimberly: Not because it was not Catholic, but because it was too liberal Michelle: Because he, it was an actual lie. It's not not Catholic, and Chicago is not Catholic. So that, that whole e- excuse was just, it fell apart first look Kimberly: I don't even care that whatever excuse they came up with was just an excuse. The crux of it is that, they were trying to control how much their child, who's becoming a young adult, exposed to that's outside of their control. Michelle: Right Kimberly: And so whatever they said i- is irrelevant. What they mean is, "We don't wanna lose control over our child's ideology." Michelle: Because as soon as they're outside that locked box, they're gonna learn new things, and that's not what you want if you want control 00:48:03.000 --> 49:16.000 Move toward the fear Michelle: When I first had my two kids, I had nannies at my house. We had au pairs who came to, to live with us, and I got these little white stick, uh, stick figures for my window. So I had me, and then I had my daughter, and then I had my son, who was a baby at the time. Then I had the two dogs, and we had a fish at the time, so I got the fish s- stick figure. And then we had the nanny stick figures, and we got a new one every year, a new nanny every year, so we had a little s- series of nanny stick figures on there. And our father said to me, "You shouldn't do that, because you're letting people know who's in your family." And I thought, you know, the other problem is that my windows are made out of see-through material, so people can see into my car it's fear. And I, I think we've locked ourselves into these boxes that create and promote more fear of other people Kimberly: That is, that is a, a side effect of not being exposed to diversity and of ideologies, of cultures, of peoples, is that we, we fear what we don't know. And if we never get to know it, then we're always gonna fear it Hmm.