התמלול המלא של #23 Christopher Willcox - The Leadership Fundamentals That Matter

00:05:23.947 --> 00:05:34.016 I was listening to a podcast recently about a fintech firm, and the CEO said, "We give our summer interns real proximity to the process," and that they're given real responsibility. 00:05:34.047 --> 00:05:41.896 He said, "Because they're native tech people, we can learn from them." And also, we don't want to become a homogeneous organisation where we all think and act the same. 00:05:41.896 --> 00:05:48.656 We need to be listening to the kind of people coming in as well, 'cause they have a different perspective, a different way of seeing the world. 00:05:49.067 --> 00:05:50.096 Hundred percent. 00:05:50.166 --> 00:05:57.966 But also, the other thing is that the junior people are actually closer to the coalface than people like me. 00:05:58.476 --> 00:06:08.177 And often, they actually have a deeper knowledge of some of the detail of the day-to-day processes than you do. 00:06:08.867 --> 00:06:10.906 So one of the things that I've said 00:06:10.906 --> 00:06:12.737 you have to listen. 00:06:13.127 --> 00:06:29.396 You have to listen very carefully, because actually it might be the most junior person in the room that is the one because they're closest to the coalface, that saves you or informs you of the one critical thing that you need to know about. 00:06:29.427 --> 00:06:31.646 And I've certainly seen that happen in my career. 00:06:32.367 --> 00:06:35.817 I remember when I heard you speak about your compass you had at JP Morgan. 00:06:35.817 --> 00:06:54.122 You and I both know Roy reported, I think it was several rungs below you, but he gave you some feedback in, I think it was 2007, that saved the company a lot of money, and he was the one that… You created the psychological safety for him to put his hand up and say,"I think your calculations as a group are wrong." And am I right? 00:06:54.213 --> 00:06:58.083 And he ultimately saved the division a lot of money. 00:06:58.083 --> 00:06:58.742 Is that correct? 00:06:58.970 --> 00:06:59.629 That's true. 00:06:59.629 --> 00:07:01.759 That was Roy Aviner, as you know. 00:07:02.529 --> 00:07:12.959 And it was the Sunday night before Lehman Brothers declared bankruptcy, and we'd been on all weekend working out what our risk positions were. 00:07:12.980 --> 00:07:16.699 So we were ready to do risk replacement at the open. 00:07:17.600 --> 00:07:25.949 And as we went through the plan, Roy put his hand up and said to us that he thought we had the wrong sign on our cross currency basis swap position. 00:07:27.050 --> 00:07:44.779 I'd like to think that I created a zone of psychological security, but I think in fact what I did was pretty much say, "Thanks very much, but I think I know what I'm doing here." But also, very fortunately, I was smart enough to check whether he was right or not, and he was right. 00:07:45.290 --> 00:07:52.420 And yeah, it saved us a very large amount of money, because we would've executed the wrong way round into the market on the open. 00:07:54.220 --> 00:08:02.620 And Roy, at that point… Now he's, I think, a very successful senior investor at a hedge fund. 00:08:02.649 --> 00:08:05.660 But in those days, he was a very junior analyst. 00:08:06.029 --> 00:08:12.420 And so, despite the fact that I didn't create that zone of psychological security for him, he was brave enough to speak up. 00:08:13.009 --> 00:08:24.600 But since then, I learned that you'd better make sure that you listen very carefully, no matter how junior the person is, because quite often they know more about the detail than you do. 00:08:24.899 --> 00:08:37.580 And he happened to know that the way our systems worked at that point,'cause he was doing it every day and I was sitting in a glass office most of the day, he happened to know that it actually portrayed that position with a different sign on it. 00:08:38.809 --> 00:08:40.169 And I suppose it is that listening 00:08:40.200 --> 00:08:44.460 two ears, one mouth, and testing hypotheses. 00:08:44.769 --> 00:08:48.179 I think sometimes we can be so busy doing and moving fast. 00:08:48.200 --> 00:08:55.990 Actually, it's when we listen that it's like, "What might we be missing? Where might we have got something wrong?" Yeah, exactly. 00:08:56.812 --> 00:08:59.272 I like to think you got a bigger bonus that year as a result. 00:08:59.769 --> 00:09:01.419 He did, he definitely did. 00:09:01.419 --> 00:09:07.254 Although, I think he's done a lot better since then, which is good, because he is a super smart guy. 00:09:07.738 --> 00:09:08.967 Yeah, I love Roy. 00:09:10.158 --> 00:09:18.168 And before we dive into more about your leadership, having known you for a number of years, I know we talked about where you get your energy from. 00:09:18.168 --> 00:09:26.857 I know you are very good at making sure you've got your outlets, which are golf and sailing and diving, and several years ago you crossed the Atlantic sailing. 00:09:29.158 --> 00:09:33.947 When you think about that kind of pursuit, what did you learn about yourself? 00:09:34.258 --> 00:09:35.548 And then, equally, I suppose the 00:09:35.548 --> 00:09:41.368 what are the lessons that you apply in your own leadership from that experience? 00:09:41.576 --> 00:09:45.326 Yeah, so sailing across the Atlantic was quite an experience. 00:09:46.855 --> 00:09:54.475 I have a sailing boat and me and three friends sailed across the Atlantic from Canary Islands to the Caribbean. 00:09:54.475 --> 00:09:56.155 We were at sea for 21 days. 00:09:56.875 --> 00:09:58.755 I think there were a couple of things we learned from it. 00:09:59.155 --> 00:10:11.426 The first thing is that there's three of you are sailing a 70 foot sailing boat in pretty big seas, sometimes in quite bad weather. 00:10:12.475 --> 00:10:19.706 and it really, reminds you of how you have to keep your, how you have to preserve your energy levels. 00:10:21.056 --> 00:10:22.405 we used to have a saying on the 00:10:22.405 --> 00:10:35.456 "You are a

battery, and you need to recharge." And so don't let your battery run too low, otherwise you're not going to be any use to any of the other people on the boat. 00:10:35.875 --> 00:10:51.446 So obviously we had a watch system, but we also had a rule that if anyone felt that they were particularly run down, that they would speak up straight away and we would, and that there'd be no questions asked that they could go and have a rest and somebody else would, step in. 00:10:51.806 --> 00:10:59.605 Because what we really wanted to make sure was in situations where we really needed people, to step up, that they were ready. 00:10:59.605 --> 00:11:10.225 And I think that's, an important thing for work as well, where, you do need to make sure that you build time into your schedule to make sure that you're fully charged. 00:11:10.225 --> 00:11:18.206 Because when the cri, when a crisis occurs, you don't want a crisis to occur when you're on a very low, when you're on a very low battery. 00:11:19.076 --> 00:11:23.725 so you know that was something that was really important. 00:11:23.725 --> 00:11:33.355 If there's only four of you and you are having to sail a boat 24 hours a day, to make sure that everybody's in good condition and that their health is okay. 00:11:34.135 --> 00:11:47.125 and I think that's something that, you hear Jamie Dimon talk a lot about in, JP Morgan, which is you have to make time, to make sure that you are physically, and mentally in good shape to be high performing in your job. 00:11:47.936 --> 00:11:55.676 I think the other thing we, I mean we had a great trip, but, like all of these things, it was challenging. 00:11:56.875 --> 00:11:59.995 So, for the first week or so, we had very, heavy weather. 00:12:00.806 --> 00:12:05.875 and quite a lot of the boats in the race that we were participating in dropped out. 00:12:07.556 --> 00:12:09.775 and we broke almost everything on the boat. 00:12:10.081 --> 00:12:13.885 and on the first day, the one of the foresail got jammed. 00:12:13.885 --> 00:12:16.436 So we couldn't use our foresail for a couple of days. 00:12:16.826 --> 00:12:22.400 Then the water maker broke, then we had, then we had a minor fire in the engine. 00:12:22.538 --> 00:12:29.139 and so after the first week or so, pretty much everything had gone wrong. 00:12:29.139 --> 00:12:31.389 We figured we were doing really badly. 00:12:32.589 --> 00:12:35.198 we didn't have a lot of communication with the shore. 00:12:35.198 --> 00:12:43.448 We had one email a day that came through our satellite phone, and then pretty much halfway across the Atlantic, our mainsail tore in half. 00:12:43.859 --> 00:12:49.278 And we had to spend several hours trying to jury-rig a sail. 00:12:49.298 --> 00:12:53.798 So for the second half of the Atlantic crossing, we only had half a, mainsail. 00:12:55.359 --> 00:12:56.604 and at the end of it all, we got. 00:12:58.232 --> 00:13:03.452 a little bit past halfway across and turned out we were in fourth position. 00:13:05.493 --> 00:13:21.692 the lesson that we learned was, actually, you've got to remember, that no matter how bad things look at any moment in time, you've got to keep an eye on what everybody else is doing and what the relative positions are. 00:13:22.503 --> 00:13:25.503 So, we got halfway across thinking we'd done absolutely terribly. 00:13:25.503 --> 00:13:28.082 And it turned out we were actually doing quite well. 00:13:29.163 --> 00:13:36.062 and that was the lesson, which was, however, bad things look, just keep, going. 00:13:36.722 --> 00:13:39.932 and maybe you'll find that everybody else has struggled as well. 00:13:41.253 --> 00:13:46.533 from that point on, we, we're, the second half of, the crossing. 00:13:46.832 --> 00:13:48.602 We're feeling pretty good about ourselves. 00:13:48.903 --> 00:13:49.982 we're in fourth place. 00:13:49.982 --> 00:13:51.482 Lots of people have dropped out. 00:13:52.082 --> 00:14:00.452 the weather's improved now, and we're starting to think we're, we're pretty hot stuff and we're pretty impressed with ourselves. 00:14:00.452 --> 00:14:07.562 And as we got towards the last week where we're approaching the Caribbean, I would say we were pretty self satisfied. 00:14:07.653 --> 00:14:14.312 And then one night, I'm on my night watch at say three, four o'clock in the morning. 00:14:14.312 --> 00:14:15.812 It's pitch black outside. 00:14:16.202 --> 00:14:25.802 And I can see on our, radar system that there's a small boat ahead of us, and suddenly the radio goes. 00:14:25.802 --> 00:14:29.613 And we haven't seen another boat for the entire crossing. 00:14:29.613 --> 00:14:31.442 We didn't see another boat the whole way across it. 00:14:32.192 --> 00:14:37.263 And radio goes and it says, this is, perseverance. 00:14:37.263 --> 00:14:40.793 We're calling, the boat that's coming up behind us. 00:14:40.923 --> 00:14:43.863 We just want to check that you've seen us 'cause we're not moving very fast. 00:14:44.493 --> 00:14:48.123 So I get on the radio, I say, hi, and it's a woman's voice. 00:14:48.753 --> 00:14:51.513 And I say, hi, this is, sailing yacht Manti. 00:14:51.513 --> 00:14:52.322 How are you? 00:14:52.322 --> 00:14:53.342 What are you doing out here? 00:14:54.153 --> 00:15:01.442 And she goes, we're this, we're four girls and we're, just rowing across the Atlantic. 00:15:02.582 --> 00:15:09.513 and we've been 37 days out so far, and we've pretty much run out of food and living on chocolate bars. 00:15:10.503 --> 00:15:20.793 So just at the moment when I was thinking we were pretty good and we were pretty tough for sailing across the Atlantic, we come across a boat with four girls who are rowing across the Atlantic. 00:15:21.812 --> 00:15:35.852 so equally the opposite lesson applies that just when you're thinking that you are pretty good at that, you're pretty good and you're doing pretty well, there's probably always somebody out there who's doing something even more, impressive and amazing

than you are. 00:15:35.852 --> 00:15:38.373 So you've got to stay humble, as well. 00:15:39.116 --> 00:15:41.307 I love the fact their boat was called perseverance. 00:15:41.307 --> 00:15:45.057 That feels a very fitting, word that would've carried them. 00:15:45.086 --> 00:15:47.111 Do you know if they made it to the, they got to the Caribbean? 00:15:47.657 --> 00:15:49.966 they rowed it to Antigua. 00:15:51.076 --> 00:15:57.226 And what I would say about it is that, sailing across the Atlantic is quite hard. 00:15:57.293 --> 00:16:01.913 but rowing across the Atlantic in a rowing boat is completely insane. 00:16:02.019 --> 00:16:11.048 there's, as I say, whenever you get pretty impressed with yourself, remember that there's almost certainly somebody out there that's doing something a lot more impressive than you are. 00:16:11.948 --> 00:16:16.208 and yeah, they made it an, amazing, thing to do. 00:16:16.486 --> 00:16:17.297 Yeah, that's it. 00:16:17.297 --> 00:16:19.937 But they did an amazing, it was an amazing feat. 00:16:19.937 --> 00:16:24.856 And equally, your sail across the Atlantic and there are so many things that came up for me listening to you. 00:16:25.126 --> 00:16:25.966 You mentioned the weather. 00:16:25.966 --> 00:16:27.557 It's like, control what you can control. 00:16:27.557 --> 00:16:28.876 Influence what you can influence. 00:16:29.177 --> 00:16:34.787 And I'm sure there are so many different weather patterns and like there's certain things you just, have to go with it. 00:16:34.787 --> 00:16:36.167 And knowing this too shall pass. 00:16:37.636 --> 00:16:41.956 and you said about that staying fit for purpose and it's okay to put your hand up to say, you know what? 00:16:42.466 --> 00:16:43.547 I need to take a break. 00:16:43.547 --> 00:16:46.547 And I think of pq, our physiology quotient. 00:16:46.547 --> 00:16:57.047 We have eq, we have iq, but our physiology quotient is making sure we're resourced and whether we're rowing a boat, sailing or within a corporate, we need to be fit for purpose. 00:16:57.047 --> 00:16:59.537 And we have to be the ones that put our hand up. 00:16:59.537 --> 00:17:02.567 No one's gonna save us or be like, you should take a break. 00:17:02.567 --> 00:17:04.186 Like it has to come from within. 00:17:05.255 --> 00:17:05.944 A hundred percent. 00:17:06.755 --> 00:17:08.788 And it's important, it's really, yeah. 00:17:08.855 --> 00:17:19.325 so if you, want to have high performing people, you got to make sure that they're, in good condition at the moments when they're gonna be needed. 00:17:19.325 --> 00:17:31.025 And the more you, the more senior you become, the more actually your contribution is concentrated into some pretty key decision making moments. 00:17:32.015 --> 00:17:55.654 and, as a manager, or a leader, all of the, people that work for you or who you are responsible to, really rely upon you to get a relatively small number of key decisions right at, at specific moments in time. 00:17:56.134 --> 00:17:56.494 Yeah. 00:17:57.065 --> 00:18:14.191 it, they don't necessarily need you to be on top form all of the time, but what they need you to do is make sure that you are, capable of making high quality decisions at the moments that those decisions are imperative. 00:18:14.788 --> 00:18:15.239 Yeah. 00:18:15.659 --> 00:18:20.548 and I think that rest or taking care of ourselves, like rest isn't the opposite of productivity. 00:18:20.969 --> 00:18:22.828 rest is what protects productivity. 00:18:23.159 --> 00:18:34.828 it's, and we'll all have different, we'll all have different outlets and different, but it's making sure, those energy sources and prioritising and protecting those, going to energy. 00:18:34.828 --> 00:18:42.929 I imagine earlier this year there was a high energy on your side when Sunderland did really well in the, Sunderland football club over here. 00:18:43.769 --> 00:18:57.778 my children are avid football supporters, and I know you as a Sunderland supporter, so I, it's something I, just, again, I, we, have the football scores coming in in our household on a Saturday and this season, as I understood it, they finished seventh, which was quite an achievement for Sunderland their best in 25 years. 00:18:58.409 --> 00:19:02.098 they qualified for European football, which was the first time in 50 years. 00:19:02.368 --> 00:19:06.798 So look, you manage lots of teams and people like what makes a great team? 00:19:06.798 --> 00:19:08.759 Let's talk about what made Sunderland great. 00:19:09.663 --> 00:19:23.493 look, firstly, I think if, generally speaking from a business perspective, you would want success to be more frequent, and consistent than Sunderland have been over the last a hundred years. 00:19:23.854 --> 00:19:29.144 and being a Sunderland supporter is, definitely one of the more painful, experiences. 00:19:29.173 --> 00:19:31.804 But they have new ownership. 00:19:32.854 --> 00:19:36.604 I think many people will have seen the TV series Sunderland 'Til I Die. 00:19:37.473 --> 00:19:43.144 so they can, if they, if you've watched that, you can gather some of the pain of being a Sunderland supporter. 00:19:43.443 --> 00:19:50.614 But in the last few years, they've got new ownership, new management, and they've done a pretty amazing job of building themselves, back up. 00:19:51.153 --> 00:20:08.763 and I'd say what they've really done there is that they have been, very thoughtful about having a clear plan, and then being aggressive with their investment at the right moment. 00:20:08.763 --> 00:20:12.213 So they, got promoted into the Premier League last season. 00:20:13.804 --> 00:20:18.124 they were the playoff club, that came up in third place. 00:20:18.124 --> 00:20:27.814 So they were absolutely the favourites to be immediately relegated back down, from the Premier League, in the same season. 00:20:28.864 --> 00:20:36.243 and they avoided that by, being pretty aggressive around the investment that they

made, in players. 00:20:36.544 --> 00:20:37.683 So I think that's one thing. 00:20:37.683 --> 00:20:55.324 But I think the other thing was making sure, and the real sort of miracle of that team is how they, went out, invested in new players, but still seemed to have generated a really coherent culture, where, those players were united and were playing for each other. 00:20:56.403 --> 00:21:12.153 and that's where the manager, received a lot of plaudits last season because, to, have that much turnover in your team, and still be able to get it to play together as a team was an amazing achievement. 00:21:12.153 --> 00:21:17.403 So it's the first time they've been, they qualified for Europe since 1973. 00:21:18.513 --> 00:21:22.683 and, I'll be looking forward to seeing how they do, next season. 00:21:23.442 --> 00:21:31.912 And that, that coherent culture that you speak about, you've been a leader, a number of different organisations at the most senior level. 00:21:33.011 --> 00:21:36.612 What do you think are the ingredients that go into making a coherent culture? 00:21:37.178 --> 00:21:44.678 I think, I think firstly you have to have a clear statement of what your mission is. 00:21:46.268 --> 00:21:58.778 and I think, and secondly, I think you have to communicate it and probably communicate it much more frequently, and regularly than most people think. 00:21:59.137 --> 00:22:24.607 And, that's been one of the big lessons that I learned, particularly at JP Morgan, was that even though you may feel that you've told people what the strategy is, told people what the plan is repeatedly in town halls and other modes of communication or quarterly podcasts or whatever the mechanism is that you use to communicate that it's still never gonna be enough. 00:22:25.327 --> 00:22:30.607 And, that repetition and consistency are incredibly important. 00:22:30.607 --> 00:22:42.548 And if you ever do employee surveys, no matter how much you think you've explained the strategy to people, you're still gonna have about a third of your employees saying they dunno what the strategy is. 00:22:42.847 --> 00:22:45.248 So that job, never ends. 00:22:45.817 --> 00:22:59.228 and so it is not just a matter of having a strategy, which obviously is a pretty useful, prerequisite, but it's, a matter of, communicating it and then realising that the communication job actually never ends. 00:23:01.268 --> 00:23:19.357 and then also making it consistent over, time so that, because clearly you're not gonna have a strategy that remains unchanged indefinitely, but that there's a connection between, the where you've come from and where you are going to. 00:23:21.458 --> 00:23:34.958 mechanism that I have often used is we would generally have, let's say three to five, big, priorities in the business, which we would communicate, at the beginning of the year. 00:23:35.137 --> 00:23:39.667 And then the whole way through the year, we would be communicating progress against those priorities. 00:23:39.968 --> 00:23:45.728 And then you would review them in, let's say your, as you, prepared your strategy for the next year. 00:23:46.087 --> 00:23:56.018 And then you would stand up and explain that maybe, three of the five priorities are the same, and you've got two new ones because two have been achieved. 00:23:56.377 --> 00:23:59.557 And that you make sure that there's a consistency year on year. 00:24:00.728 --> 00:24:06.728 and ultimately there's a, there's an enormous amount of power in doing that. 00:24:07.208 --> 00:24:15.397 If you get to the point where your employees are making fun of your five messages, that means that they've remembered them. 00:24:16.657 --> 00:24:18.262 and if you go through, if you have. 00:24:19.675 --> 00:24:26.875 It's, very powerful to have a coherent strategy that you can explain, to third parties and to your own employees. 00:24:27.925 --> 00:24:35.155 but it's even more powerful if, you've got several thousand employees who can all name them. 00:24:35.486 --> 00:24:40.165 And if a third party asks them what the strategy of their organisation is, they all say the same thing. 00:24:41.096 --> 00:24:47.215 suddenly you have a, flywheel effect in terms of people understanding what's going on. 00:24:47.215 --> 00:24:48.355 And why is that important? 00:24:48.355 --> 00:24:54.746 It's important, because, it allows people to focus on their jobs. 00:24:56.036 --> 00:25:06.955 we underestimate how much time, the people that work for us need to spend worrying about the direction of the business or the firm that they're working for. 00:25:07.645 --> 00:25:23.516 if you don't do a good job of that communication, but if they really clearly understand, what the, what the, path is, then, then they will understand a lot of the things that are going on around them. 00:25:23.576 --> 00:25:30.596 They'll feel more confident, they'll feel more motivated, and they'll feel able to focus on what their task is. 00:25:31.736 --> 00:26:24.519 And if you think about, what happens very often in your day-to-day life, and maybe this happened to you when you were working at JP Morgan or, some other firm, but you're sitting at your desk and you've got your email open and suddenly an email drops into your inbox and the email says something along the lines of,"We would like to, we're pleased to announce that we've just appointed so-and-so as the global head of air conditioning."" They will have a reporting line to X, but also have a dotted line to Y, and we'll work in close coordination with the heating department." And you look at this and you think to yourself, what is that all about? 00:26:25.450 --> 00:26:30.910 Why have we, why do we who, I dunno who this person is. 00:26:31.990 --> 00:26:34.480 I don't know why we need a global head of air conditioning. 00:26:34.509 --> 00:26:36.940 Why have they got so many reporting lines? 00:26:37.299 --> 00:26:42.430 You know what, I'm just gonna delete this email right now. 00:26:43.119

--> 00:26:59.529 If for the last three years you've been told by your management that one of the five key initiatives of the firm is to have better air conditioning, then when that drops in your inbox, you look at it, you say, I know air conditioning's one of the priorities of the firm. 00:26:59.829 --> 00:27:01.339 Now we've got a global head of it. 00:27:01.900 --> 00:27:07.779 And it's consistent with what I've been told our strategy's gonna be. 00:27:08.019 --> 00:27:09.099 Okay, that sounds good. 00:27:09.099 --> 00:27:10.329 I feel pretty good about that. 00:27:13.000 --> 00:27:15.160 and then probably you delete the email as well. 00:27:15.549 --> 00:27:19.000 But the difference between the two is one of them goes, this is confusing. 00:27:19.000 --> 00:27:21.579 And God knows if the people above us know what they're doing. 00:27:21.970 --> 00:27:27.730 And the second one is actually, that makes sense. 00:27:27.789 --> 00:27:29.799 It's in line with what I've been told. 00:27:30.069 --> 00:27:37.990 I don't really need to know exactly what all the reporting lines are, but it looks like they know what they're doing and I can move on. 00:27:38.500 --> 00:27:41.380 So I think that's sort of key thing. 00:27:42.104 --> 00:27:54.824 And so I'm really hearing that as a leader, it's about being the CCRO as well, like the chief reinforcement or the chief repetition officer, making sure that mission, that vision, the priorities are clear, they're consistent, and there's a repetition. 00:27:54.824 --> 00:27:56.923 And if there's a boomerang, they come back to you as well. 00:27:56.923 --> 00:28:00.044 It's like I know that they've, I know that people are getting the message. 00:28:00.374 --> 00:28:03.344 And you also said at the beginning, using different modes. 00:28:03.374 --> 00:28:06.344 'cause I'm assuming, some people want to see you, some people want to hear you. 00:28:06.344 --> 00:28:09.253 So it's not just saying it's only gonna be town halls. 00:28:09.253 --> 00:28:12.429 It's recognising that, different modes and, using them all. 00:28:12.763 --> 00:28:16.304 the world's changed in terms of all of, look at what we're doing today. 00:28:16.653 --> 00:28:21.854 the world has changed in terms of how you can communicate. 00:28:21.854 --> 00:28:29.173 In some ways it's easier because, we've got so many different media that we can use to get messages across. 00:28:29.834 --> 00:28:40.753 and, I do internal podcasts, we do town halls, we do, various different group sessions and, we've got all sorts of business resource groups. 00:28:40.753 --> 00:28:44.473 So there are multiple opportunities, for communicating with people. 00:28:44.653 --> 00:28:51.824 And just because, for example, you may be talking to a women's group, or you may be talking to one of the other business resource groups. 00:28:52.183 --> 00:28:55.693 Actually all of those groups are interested in the business. 00:28:57.824 --> 00:29:09.493 when we, do things on diversity in our

organisations, I spend most of that time talking about the business because, that's actually what the people in those groups are also interested in. 00:29:09.493 --> 00:29:15.554 So there are multiple different opportunities and forums for you to get the message across. 00:29:16.364 --> 00:29:33.644 and, you've got to, you've got to, you've just got to keep reinforcing it, with people, because ultimately people want to know, everybody who's working here is highly invested in the success of this place, and therefore has a real stake in what the strategy is. 00:29:34.034 --> 00:29:43.124 And before anything else, they want to understand what it is, and then they'll take a view, a qualitative view on it as well. 00:29:43.442 --> 00:29:47.132 I just want to pivot a second before you, your pathway into finance. 00:29:47.132 --> 00:29:50.281 You were at, St Edward's School, in Oxford. 00:29:50.281 --> 00:29:51.481 I think it's known as Teddy's. 00:29:51.481 --> 00:30:02.791 And I understand recently you were invited back, to their leavers or their speech day as the, guest speaker, which I can only imagine is a real honour and probably very eye-opening going back, I dunno how many decades? 00:30:02.791 --> 00:30:05.516 Like several decades later, steady. 00:30:05.816 --> 00:30:06.266 Steady. 00:30:06.266 --> 00:30:06.566 No. 00:30:08.071 --> 00:30:08.281 I think. 00:30:08.281 --> 00:30:09.092 Is it two, three? 00:30:10.021 --> 00:30:18.632 now I, heard some of your speech and there was one, there were several lessons you shared, but I'd love for you to share a little bit about that attention to detail. 00:30:19.382 --> 00:30:23.402 I think that's such a critical skill and that was one of the four lessons that you shared. 00:30:23.402 --> 00:30:25.112 So I wondered if you could speak to that a little bit. 00:30:25.334 --> 00:30:35.683 I think the theme of the speech was, what were the things I wish I'd known when I left school, in terms of being successful in my career? 00:30:36.973 --> 00:30:46.513 and there were four things, attention to detail, embrace failure, speak up and character. 00:30:48.163 --> 00:31:02.294 and the attention to detail point was, look, the things that make us successful aren't just the big things, but most of our successes come from an aggregation of, small things going well. 00:31:02.413 --> 00:31:12.574 And so you have to pay a lot of attention to small things because small things going wrong or being done badly can obscure much bigger successes. 00:31:12.733 --> 00:31:22.304 And you think about the number of times when overall you've got something successful, but people focus on the one little thing that didn't, go well. 00:31:22.723 --> 00:31:33.344 And, so attention to detail helps you avoid being derailed by that, but it's also, an important part of your own development. 00:31:34.394 --> 00:31:49.544 when I started out on the trading floor, one of the things I did to differentiate myself was I, was very, detailed around checking everything, and trying to be the person that avoided mistakes. 00:31:49.874 --> 00:31:54.523 So yeah, every position, every trade, I double checked. 00:31:54.523 --> 00:32:06.614 I volunteered for all of the sort of miserable jobs of, reconciling the ledgers at the end of the day doing, month end reconciliations and all of those kind of things. 00:32:07.094 --> 00:32:20.384 And, I was able to differentiate myself in that way by not making too many mistakes, which inevitably you're gonna make, but also maybe catching other people's mistakes before they turned into a problem so I could add value. 00:32:20.653 --> 00:32:22.912 And in doing it, Yeah. 00:32:23.384 --> 00:32:28.183 I taught myself all the plumbing of how the systems and reporting worked. 00:32:28.394 --> 00:32:32.594 And that's obviously a useful thing to do if you want to get ahead on a trading floor. 00:32:33.703 --> 00:32:37.364 but what it really did was it made the senior people on the desk trust me. 00:32:39.223 --> 00:32:52.064 and so ultimately when, if people, find that they can trust you on small things, then they are much more likely to trust you with big things. 00:32:52.213 --> 00:33:08.173 And then when the opportunity comes to step up or if there's a book available that somebody can step into, you are gonna find yourself at the top of that list because you've demonstrated trustworthiness and competence. 00:33:08.407 --> 00:33:10.208 Yeah, I love that. 00:33:10.208 --> 00:33:12.518 And I love the aggregation of the small things going well. 00:33:12.698 --> 00:33:18.817 things compound and that volunteering that you speak to, I think that's great for visibility as well. 00:33:18.817 --> 00:33:22.387 It's exposure, it's, you're prepared to do things that other people don't want to do. 00:33:22.387 --> 00:33:23.798 The boring and the mundane task. 00:33:23.827 --> 00:33:25.778 But that's giving, that's building a profile. 00:33:25.778 --> 00:33:27.188 It's building a personal brand. 00:33:27.667 --> 00:33:30.008 And you said there, see where you can add value. 00:33:31.218 --> 00:33:39.008 you said the fourth lesson was character, what are the character traits that you think are really important for the world of work today? 00:33:41.173 --> 00:33:51.563 it is something that I, often give speeches to new joiners or to summer intern groups and people like that. 00:33:51.563 --> 00:34:04.916 And, often what I'll do is I'll ask them, towards the end, what do you think the most important, thing is in our, in our decision making around hiring? 00:34:05.396 --> 00:34:10.586 what is it we want you, to, bring? 00:34:11.007 --> 00:34:25.257 And, they're, all these days, all of the young people coming through these programmes are so much more well-trained than we were when, at least I was, when I was starting out. 00:34:25.257 --> 00:34:31.496 They've all been coached and they're all very, well prepared and articulate. 00:34:32.036 --> 00:34:33.717 and they come up with great

answers. 00:34:34.016 --> 00:34:38.786 they'll say, look, we think we, you, want, good team players. 00:34:38.786 --> 00:34:49.706 You want, people who have maybe attention to details, strong technical skills, a passion for learning, commitment. 00:34:50.726 --> 00:34:52.947 all of those good answers, which are all true. 00:34:52.947 --> 00:34:58.286 And they're all, they're, they are all things that we want, you know, subject matter, expertise, whatever. 00:34:59.967 --> 00:35:11.907 but, they often don't, give me what I think is the single most important thing that you're looking for when you hire somebody, which is, character. 00:35:12.126 --> 00:35:25.806 I think all of those other things, so long as you have intelligence and application, either we can teach them to you, or you can learn them for yourself. 00:35:26.615 --> 00:35:32.346 But the one thing that you have to bring to the table is, character and integrity. 00:35:32.856 --> 00:35:36.416 And, often people will say to me, that's obvious. 00:35:37.255 --> 00:35:38.126 we know that. 00:35:39.085 --> 00:35:47.106 and you say, yes, you know it in theory, but what's gonna happen to you in your career is that you're gonna get tested in practice. 00:35:47.646 --> 00:35:48.255 And in practice. 00:35:48.356 --> 00:35:52.856 You're gonna be a junior person sitting on a trading desk, and you're gonna make a mistake. 00:35:52.856 --> 00:35:55.766 And that mistake's gonna cost millions of dollars. 00:35:56.335 --> 00:36:00.476 And you're gonna be sitting there thinking to yourself, this is the end of the world. 00:36:01.076 --> 00:36:02.545 I'm, gonna get fired for this. 00:36:02.786 --> 00:36:05.996 Certainly that happened to me, in my early career. 00:36:07.615 --> 00:36:08.846 And, at that point. 00:36:09.132 --> 00:36:20.442 There will be a really strong temptation for you, to try to either hide it or avoid the issue, or not put your hand up quickly. 00:36:20.442 --> 00:36:24.672 And that's the biggest, the worst thing that you can possibly do. 00:36:26.141 --> 00:36:35.561 the lesson that I always say to these folks who are starting out their careers is, you will find yourself in this situation for sure, in some form or another. 00:36:35.561 --> 00:36:40.661 You'll find yourself in a situation where you think something that something catastrophic has happened. 00:36:40.902 --> 00:36:45.791 And when you do remember this, put your hand up immediately. 00:36:46.001 --> 00:36:52.481 Ask for help, because ultimately people will trust and respect you if you do that. 00:36:52.871 --> 00:36:54.822 And that's how you get on in your career. 00:36:56.081 --> 00:37:00.402 and you won't get fired for making a mistake. 00:37:01.302 --> 00:37:06.041 what you'll get fired for is hiding it or being dishonest about it. 00:37:06.612 --> 00:37:11.262 And I think, that's the most important thing. 00:37:11.262 --> 00:37:25.121 Now, I do go on to tell them one other thing, which is, having said all of that, if you

keep making the same mistake over and over again, You'll get you will eventually get fired for it. 00:37:27.012 --> 00:37:31.032 make sure that you, make sure that you, learn from those mistakes. 00:37:31.307 --> 00:37:35.177 And I think it's recognising we're all human and mistakes will happen. 00:37:35.177 --> 00:37:37.818 And it's what you do in those moments that matter. 00:37:38.268 --> 00:37:43.697 And look, being a CEO, of, a public company, there is a degree of scrutiny that comes with a seat. 00:37:43.697 --> 00:37:50.177 And in the world that we live in, there's a lot of visibility and things can cascade up very quickly. 00:37:50.208 --> 00:37:52.668 What is the worst thing you've ever read about yourself? 00:37:52.900 --> 00:38:06.322 other than in my sort of 360 reviews, which probably have had a few, things, the newspaper story that you are referring to is the one that was, entitled The Wolf of Wall Street that It would be heard of. 00:38:07.561 --> 00:38:15.806 which I felt was pretty harsh to be honest, because firstly, the Wolf of Wall Street was a criminal who went to jail. 00:38:15.896 --> 00:38:20.637 And, so I'm not sure that's entirely a fair comparison. 00:38:21.117 --> 00:38:29.126 And for the second reason I thought it was unfair is I feel like, some people do know me, it's like, not like nobody has ever heard of me. 00:38:30.626 --> 00:38:44.190 but, so I think, look, it's, it was a slow news day, I guess on that day, and quite an amusing headline given it had a picture of me, It's Leo. 00:38:44.641 --> 00:38:47.940 next to a picture of Leonardo DiCaprio. 00:38:49.887 --> 00:39:04.166 Which I figured if I ever ended up in a newspaper with, in, with a picture of myself next to Leonardo DiCaprio, either I would've done something really bad, or I would've done something really fun. 00:39:04.976 --> 00:39:08.907 and neither of those things was true, in this case. 00:39:09.507 --> 00:39:14.967 But yeah, the reality is that, there's a lot of scrutiny. 00:39:15.327 --> 00:39:29.936 You have to be pretty cognizant about, what you say, what you do, because nobody's gonna give you the benefit of the doubt when you are in the public eye. 00:39:31.197 --> 00:39:32.786 and that is challenging. 00:39:32.876 --> 00:39:40.427 More importantly, I think, the question would be what are the impacts on other people? 00:39:40.496 --> 00:39:50.427 if I'm being interviewed and, I'll make a comment about one or other of my businesses, the people who work in those businesses will be listening to that. 00:39:51.056 --> 00:40:04.586 sometimes I end up coming back from the CNBC or Bloomberg Studio to, someone, on the trading floor saying, so I heard you said,"Repo was a low margin business." Are we really a low margin business? 00:40:05.246 --> 00:40:11.697 I said, "No, I love you guys. I love you guys. I was just making a relative point." So yeah, you end up with a lot of scrutiny. 00:40:11.697 --> 00:40:14.786 You've got to assume that people are listening to what you say. 00:40:14.786 --> 00:40:25.077 You've also got to assume that people are not giving you the benefit of the doubt, that, if there's a negative interpretation of what you say that, there will be some people, that take it. 00:40:25.166 --> 00:40:28.286 But on the other hand, how do you deal with that? 00:40:28.706 --> 00:40:48.297 Ultimately, you deal with it, I think by being, trying to be, scrupulously, straightforward and clear in the things you say, but also by building a track record of, of trustworthiness. 00:40:48.717 --> 00:40:57.300 And and often you do that and, part of how you do that is being pretty clear. 00:40:57.300 --> 00:40:59.791 When you make mistakes, we're all gonna say the wrong thing. 00:40:59.791 --> 00:41:02.851 Sometimes get on top of it. 00:41:03.030 --> 00:41:09.121 Apologise, make it right with anybody that you think has been impacted by it. 00:41:09.121 --> 00:41:10.590 And just be very straight about it. 00:41:10.891 --> 00:41:19.306 And then I think over a long period of time, if you've demonstrated those behaviours, then people will start giving you the benefit of the doubt. 00:41:20.411 --> 00:41:20.681 Yeah. 00:41:20.681 --> 00:41:25.541 No, I agree with you and I think when you said, build a track, record of trustworthiness, that comes with time. 00:41:25.541 --> 00:41:32.860 And equally, it's recognising even if you are very cognizant and thoughtful with your words, people can misinterpret a word, can have a different meaning. 00:41:32.860 --> 00:41:41.650 So I suppose you can, it's like just do your best knowing that sometimes it will be misrepresented, but then it's like how you respond to that. 00:41:42.780 --> 00:41:58.561 it's also, it is not just that, it's that, as you say, some of the things you say are gonna be misinterpreted, and you are, you can go and apologise for that and, or clarify that. 00:41:58.561 --> 00:42:01.800 And maybe some people, will believe you. 00:42:01.800 --> 00:42:03.150 Some people won't believe you. 00:42:03.630 --> 00:42:30.840 But if you've built a track record of people believing that you are straightforward and candid, what's more powerful is if other people, are willing to advocate for you, if you misspeak, but you've got a long track record of having, demonstrated, integrity, then the really powerful thing is if somebody tries to misinterpret what you said. 00:42:31.471 --> 00:42:54.257 if a third party turns around and says, "No, we know that guy and we know that he does the right thing." So yeah, maybe he misspoke, but, other people defending you because they've built, a level of trust in you over time is far more powerful than you trying to defend yourself. 00:42:54.873 --> 00:43:01.264 It makes me think, there's a couple of celebrities that come to mind in the UK where they both involved in, one was like a drink driving. 00:43:01.264 --> 00:43:04.204 Another one was they did something naughty. 00:43:05.224 --> 00:43:14.559 and it was

interesting because, this oI'm waiting for what the comparison here is is because I've not done either of those things, just to be clear. 00:43:14.733 --> 00:43:14.914 no. 00:43:14.914 --> 00:43:15.498 Just to be clear. 00:43:15.739 --> 00:43:15.938 no. 00:43:16.599 --> 00:43:23.434 but there was this one person, who loads of people came and be like, look, they're going through a really bad time in their life. 00:43:23.434 --> 00:43:28.173 They really advocated for them, and the other person, no one stood up for them. 00:43:28.173 --> 00:43:45.264 And it was interesting because it's I think in those moments, the point that you just shared there, you know, that track record of trustworthiness, people typically will show up if, and, but if you haven't earned that, people won't just show up because you are asking them to in the moment that comes through over time. 00:43:45.407 --> 00:43:46.907 A hundred percent agree with that. 00:43:47.556 --> 00:43:50.887 Yeah, and I wasn't saying that either you, Jana, it was just that's what came from. 00:43:50.887 --> 00:43:59.436 Let's just talk about, leading people because you are known across the industry for being, a great leader of people. 00:44:00.217 --> 00:44:04.056 my question where it takes me, how do you get great results or high results out of people? 00:44:04.056 --> 00:44:07.536 It's one thing getting results, but how do you get high results out of your people? 00:44:07.634 --> 00:44:13.664 the simple answer is that the way you get great results outta people is that you make sure that they're motivated. 00:44:14.893 --> 00:44:17.864 and, there are lots of different ways of doing that. 00:44:18.853 --> 00:44:24.824 and some of them are also about just having the right reward and recognition structures in place. 00:44:26.503 --> 00:44:32.204 but, it's also about them, as we've already discussed about the communication side. 00:44:32.474 --> 00:44:36.014 People feeling they, understand what the strategy is. 00:44:36.014 --> 00:44:43.393 'cause if they don't understand what the strategy is, then it is very hard for them to feel personal buy-in as well. 00:44:44.804 --> 00:45:03.134 And I would say, also you need to ensure that you get the right balance of, of, involving yourself directly in managing people, but also avoiding micromanaging them. 00:45:03.974 --> 00:45:07.393 and that's difficult because the balance is different at different times. 00:45:07.693 --> 00:45:18.313 There are certain situations where people need, their manager to step in and manage them more closely actually, because they need the support. 00:45:19.213 --> 00:45:27.914 and then there are other times where, they need their manager to be a little bit hands off and let them, take their own path. 00:45:28.304 --> 00:45:30.583 So there's a judgement call in there. 00:45:31.393 --> 00:45:37.364 but ultimately I think if people feel, I think it boils down to trust. 00:45:37.724 --> 00:45:43.543 I think if people trust their bosses, they will, perform better. 00:45:44.534 --> 00:45:45.673 they'll feel more confident. 00:45:46.003 --> 00:45:54.824 And I think if you trust your people, then they will perform better, but also you will perform better, as a manager. 00:45:55.514 --> 00:45:58.184 And that trust that you speak to goes in both directions. 00:45:58.184 --> 00:46:03.974 And, when you think about your own leadership style, what do you think is your USP? 00:46:03.974 --> 00:46:08.114 Either it's something known to you or it's, come up in that 360 that you talked about. 00:46:08.505 --> 00:46:14.376 there's a word that's used a lot in politics at the moment, which is, it's a very imprecise word. 00:46:14.601 --> 00:46:18.322 and I'm not trying to claim it necessarily for myself, but it's certainly an aspiration. 00:46:18.322 --> 00:46:27.052 But I think that what I aspire to do as a manager is be somebody who is authentic. 00:46:28.192 --> 00:46:44.992 And so that, at the very least, whether people agree or disagree with me, they believe that I'm open and candid about, what the strategy is, what my feedback to them is. 00:46:46.161 --> 00:46:57.742 and I think that's, if, you can speak to people in non-corporate speak, you'll get a lot more buy-in, than otherwise. 00:46:57.742 --> 00:47:15.112 And it probably leads you to more candid, more direct conversations, and that gets you from A to B faster in terms of, assessing any issues or driving the business forward, or explaining to people what the expectations are for them and for you. 00:47:15.891 --> 00:47:28.041 so my aspiration would be, that people would view you as somebody who, is a straight talker, and is, direct. 00:47:28.041 --> 00:47:39.202 Now, obviously that we all find that hard to do at times, because some of the things that we're dealing with are complicated and, we don't like hurting each other's feelings. 00:47:39.652 --> 00:47:40.911 giving feedback is hard. 00:47:40.911 --> 00:47:42.742 All of the things that go with that are hard. 00:47:43.731 --> 00:47:49.882 but I think as much as, possible, that's how I would like my USP to be. 00:47:49.882 --> 00:47:55.072 But I think probably other people are more equipped to tell me whether I succeed in that or not. 00:47:55.692 --> 00:48:04.302 But the word that, the feedback word you mentioned there, in, sports they say that feedback is the oxygen of champions because we can only do better when we know better. 00:48:04.931 --> 00:48:15.282 And, if you are a Sunderland footballer or if you are Lewis Hamilton, you've got feedback from your coach, from your team members, from when in soccer, the referee. 00:48:15.521 --> 00:48:27.942 There's this feedback coming from so many different angles and it, I always find it interesting how there are some leadership teams where there's a real, this aversion to feedback, but actually this is, to your point, like role model it from the top. 00:48:28.302 --> 00:48:33.791 And culturally there should be something we all

embrace because it's, it's a quote, whoever it is, feedback is a gift. 00:48:34.692 --> 00:48:41.965 it's Yeah, everybody, people say feedback's a gift, but the honest truth is no one, no one likes feedback, right? 00:48:42.806 --> 00:48:46.288 what people like is good feedback, Yes, they do. 00:48:47.786 --> 00:48:49.315 And, but, here's the thing. 00:48:49.315 --> 00:48:53.775 We know nobody really likes feedback regardless of what all the management books tell you. 00:48:54.585 --> 00:48:58.856 and that it only feels like a gift when you're being told that you're great. 00:48:59.043 --> 00:49:00.963 Yeah, or getting promoted or a pay rise. 00:49:01.411 --> 00:49:02.431 Exactly right. 00:49:04.802 --> 00:49:06.811 nevertheless, clearly very important. 00:49:06.811 --> 00:49:15.811 But what people don't tell you, because when we talk about feedback, most people are really focused on the receiving of the feedback. 00:49:17.581 --> 00:49:21.181 and as I say, no one really likes getting it unless it's positive. 00:49:23.101 --> 00:49:42.181 but what they don't really tell you is that giving feedback is really difficult because actually, as humans in some ways, giving feedback is even more difficult, which is why so many people who are going down the wrong path are suddenly surprised when something bad happens. 00:49:42.481 --> 00:49:55.052 And the truth of the matter is, very rarely have people given them honest direct feedback because it's just as uncomfortable for the person giving it as it is for the person receiving it. 00:49:56.132 --> 00:50:03.942 and if you think about it, there are lots of coping mechanisms and, one of them, the famous sandwich feedback, right? 00:50:04.251 --> 00:50:11.972 So the sandwich feedback is, I'm going, I'm gonna give you a piece of feedback sandwiched between two positive bits of feedback. 00:50:12.422 --> 00:50:36.012 And so you say, "Georgie, you're an innovative and energetic individual, sometimes your work colleagues don't appreciate everything about how you communicate. You've got an amazing approach to the business, blah, blah, blah, blah," I've only had the good, I've just taken it. 00:50:36.092 --> 00:50:39.572 only one bit of feedback in there, and it's not the bit you are listening to, right? 00:50:39.572 --> 00:50:44.431 The one bit of feedback is you've got an issue with your work colleagues on your communication style. 00:50:44.882 --> 00:50:47.342 The rest of it is fluff, right? 00:50:47.672 --> 00:50:52.202 And it's fluff designed to make the person giving the feedback feel more comfortable. 00:50:52.902 --> 00:51:15.481 And, yet the number of times where I've had, let's say I've been mentoring, a junior person, and they'll come to me and I'll have a periodic sit down with them and they'll say to me, I'll say,"How's it going? Have you had your feedback with your manager?" And he'll say, ""Yeah, no, it's going great." I'm doing really well. 00:51:15.692 --> 00:51:18.211 Manager said, I've done everything. 00:51:18.211 --> 00:51:30.842 Okay, the one thing, one little thing that I could improve on is my attention to detail, but other than that, I'm really on the right track." And you're seeing there going, there's alarms going off in my head. 00:51:30.871 --> 00:51:36.632 'cause this young person thinks everything's great and that there's just a tiny little thing that they need to fix. 00:51:36.632 --> 00:51:37.891 But the truth is. 00:51:38.884 --> 00:51:46.204 Attention to detail, as we've already discussed, is probably the most important thing, especially at that stage in somebody's career. 00:51:46.923 --> 00:51:56.224 And the only bit of feedback that manager's been trying to give that person is they're making too many mistakes and that their attention to detail's not good enough. 00:51:56.313 --> 00:51:59.764 And it's probably a real derailer, right? 00:52:00.867 --> 00:52:03.717 And I'm curious because I, and I agree with you. 00:52:03.717 --> 00:52:07.197 I think there are so many, I think people feel really challenged. 00:52:07.197 --> 00:52:10.018 I think the feed, the word feedback and, sorry, my dog just came in. 00:52:10.438 --> 00:52:12.597 Clearly, he's interested to hear all about feedback. 00:52:14.038 --> 00:52:18.208 and I think it can really provoke a physiological response, in people. 00:52:18.208 --> 00:52:23.938 And sometimes people come up those conversations thinking I delivered the feedback, but the person on the other end is like doing a great job. 00:52:24.717 --> 00:52:28.257 what are your practical strategies for giving high quality feedback? 00:52:28.467 --> 00:52:32.608 you've spoken about directness and openness, but what does that look like in action? 00:52:33.175 --> 00:52:39.326 I think one of the things that you can do, I don't know that I'm the world's best expert at giving feedback either. 00:52:39.365 --> 00:52:42.146 I'm probably as uncomfortable with it as most people. 00:52:42.505 --> 00:52:50.576 although the longer you've done it for, and I guess the more senior you get to some, degree, the easier it gets. 00:52:51.206 --> 00:53:00.159 But one of the things that you can do, is ask for permission because then you are signalling something, which is you're signalling a couple of things. 00:53:00.219 --> 00:53:02.378 One is you need to listen to this. 00:53:02.798 --> 00:53:07.568 'cause the fact that I'm asking for permission means this is something you probably should listen to. 00:53:08.048 --> 00:53:17.588 And the second thing is I think you're signalling that it is not meant, in a negative way or that you're trying to help. 00:53:19.418 --> 00:53:39.039 and so I think if you really need to give somebody really significant feedback, first of all, asking their permission to do so is a really good signalling mechanism for them to say, you need to listen to this, and by the way, it's not very comfortable for me to give it to you. 00:53:40.778 --> 00:53:42.579 that would be one bit of advice I

would give. 00:53:43.152 --> 00:53:47.563 And that speaks to, you talked about aspiration, it being authentic. 00:53:47.563 --> 00:53:48.733 I think that's being authentic. 00:53:48.733 --> 00:53:49.782 Like it's not easy. 00:53:50.532 --> 00:53:53.592 Adam Grant from wha, he's a professor at Wharton Business School. 00:53:53.592 --> 00:53:57.583 He speaks to, I think it's 19 words, but don't count. 00:53:57.583 --> 00:54:08.112 But in case I've got the number on, but I'm giving you this feedback because I have high expectations of you, which I'm confident you can deliver against, so that I'm giving you this feedback because I have high expectations. 00:54:08.112 --> 00:54:11.143 Like the bar is high and I'm confident you're gonna get there. 00:54:11.532 --> 00:54:15.402 but it's, so it's really stating the intent and the belief. 00:54:15.402 --> 00:54:19.873 You assuming that obviously you do believe in that person, it'll be inauthentic if you thought they were on their way out. 00:54:20.443 --> 00:54:22.932 but I just thought it was a nice way to frame it. 00:54:23.623 --> 00:54:31.722 because again, people can't correct, or, and, I often see this in, there's the great saying by, Marshall Goldsmith - What Got You Here Won't Get You There. 00:54:32.172 --> 00:54:39.882 And it's, for all of us, if we are going up the ladder, we're adding more responsibilities and tasks, some of the biggest challenges. 00:54:40.123 --> 00:54:40.963 What are you, let go of. 00:54:41.117 --> 00:54:42.378 Yeah, no, I like that. 00:54:42.378 --> 00:54:44.597 I think it's, in fact, I might use it next time. 00:54:45.768 --> 00:54:47.027 so that's a good tip. 00:54:47.958 --> 00:54:59.802 but, as one of my old, from my old TE 10 Lessons of Leadership, one of my 10 lessons was, what made you successful is also what will make you fail. 00:55:01.632 --> 00:55:07.121 And it's so true, and I think it's some people are good at recognising what to let go of others. 00:55:08.291 --> 00:55:09.012 it's, really hard. 00:55:09.012 --> 00:55:11.342 And that, you said, earlier on about your leadership. 00:55:11.382 --> 00:55:15.132 Like you, don't want to micromanage, but sometimes you do need to be in the details. 00:55:15.342 --> 00:55:20.291 It's, it is really understanding at what altitude do you need to be for any given situation. 00:55:20.501 --> 00:55:21.822 And sometimes there is no playbook. 00:55:21.822 --> 00:55:27.612 It's, there's it like an intuition or of just having to feel into what feels the right place to be. 00:55:27.750 --> 00:55:28.289 Agreed. 00:55:28.389 --> 00:55:31.389 When you think, last question before I do a very quick fire round. 00:55:31.539 --> 00:55:45.489 when you think of the role of leadership today versus, when you started and we've, however many, several decades ago, how do you see things differently from when you first stepped into a very senior role? 00:55:45.875 --> 00:55:47.434 how do I see things differently? 00:55:48.295 --> 00:56:00.454 I

think that obviously the, gap between the people that you are responsible for managing in age gets wider as you go up. 00:56:01.505 --> 00:56:14.005 so, that sort of paying attention to making sure that sort of common, understanding, and communication becomes more challenging. 00:56:14.045 --> 00:56:15.875 So you have to, do that. 00:56:16.235 --> 00:56:33.125 I would say though that in general, the work environment that I work in today is a far more enlightened, inclusive, and welcoming environment than was, as I say, 35 years ago, whatever it was, when, I started out. 00:56:33.905 --> 00:56:48.375 and so I think, I think whether that's down to individuals or whether it's down to a wider societal change, I think qualitatively the work environment we operate in has improved. 00:56:48.695 --> 00:57:06.545 And I think that the responsibilities that, managers take in terms of managing people, thinking about it, thinking about, whether their management style, is helping the people that work for them is inclusive or, is effective. 00:57:06.965 --> 00:57:09.844 people, I think people spend more time thinking about those things. 00:57:09.875 --> 00:57:27.251 And I think generally when I look around me, the managers that I have, underneath me working, are, more enlightened and more, effective people managers than they were 35 years ago, because we spend more time on it. 00:57:27.280 --> 00:57:28.900 It's a more professional environment. 00:57:28.900 --> 00:57:32.130 We train, we think about it, we read about it. 00:57:32.351 --> 00:57:52.150 We coach people, we train people, so, I think there is a big, I genuinely believe, I dunno if it's just our industry, but I think there is a big qualitative change in the quality of, managers that we see around, we see around the business. 00:57:52.300 --> 00:57:58.231 The other thing that I think changed for me is just is, which is a more personal thing, which is. 00:57:58.231 --> 00:58:10.681 That when you first come into a, the early stages of the management ladder, you go into those jobs as the, as a huge subject matter expert. 00:58:11.041 --> 00:58:24.001 When you become head of a desk or head of a department or whatever it is, you will tend to be the most knowledgeable person in terms of subject-matter expertise around whatever that function is or whatever that business is. 00:58:24.451 --> 00:58:35.490 And at some point in your career, you get promoted to a place where you are running multiple businesses and you are no longer the subject matter expert. 00:58:35.550 --> 00:58:42.931 You are now having to manage people who know more than you know about the specific area that they're responsible for. 00:58:43.891 --> 00:58:47.760 and that is a huge pivot point in people's careers. 00:58:47.760 --> 00:58:52.990 And it's probably the pivot point at which there's the highest vulnerability of failure. 00:58:53.791 --> 00:59:04.650 because you've now got to move from saying my job is to be the most expert person that

can tell these people what to do and point out where they're making mistakes. 00:59:04.981 --> 00:59:14.431 To being a person that says, my job is actually to build a team made up of different people with different expertise and gel that together. 00:59:14.791 --> 00:59:20.400 And to have a general sense of how to guide those people in the right direction. 00:59:21.210 --> 00:59:29.670 A big part of the job is now who gets appointed into the roles below me rather than the subject matter expertise. 00:59:29.670 --> 00:59:43.561 So I think that move from being a sort of, subject matter expert manager to being a broader functional manager with, pretty senior people underneath you is a huge pivot point. 00:59:43.931 --> 00:59:53.280 And your skill sets, that's the point at which the skill sets that you are applying need to change the most. 00:59:53.400 --> 00:59:58.380 And it's also the point at which people often struggle, to make that change. 00:59:58.871 --> 01:00:05.201 Yeah, I remember someone saying about Adina Friedman, she's an inch of an expert on every aspect of the business, but you can't be the expert. 01:00:05.590 --> 01:00:06.610 you have the Avengers. 01:00:06.610 --> 01:00:13.181 I love talking about the Avengers, who are leading every pillar, but you can't possibly know everything about everything. 01:00:13.481 --> 01:00:28.240 but again, it's, and I imagine for you, as you've led through, you career, you've gone from sell side to buy side to sell side, American, Japanese, so you've had to continually iterate based on different environments. 01:00:28.240 --> 01:00:30.041 So it's that adaptability as well. 01:00:30.335 --> 01:00:35.735 Adina Friedman's a bit of a legend, so I'm very happy to be, talked about in the same breath as her. 01:00:35.735 --> 01:00:59.965 So let's keep that thought like me and Adina Friedman, but, yeah, look, I think the trick is, yeah, as you said, I've moved from, very different types of business from sell side to buy side, back to sell side, from American firms to a Japanese firm. 01:01:00.284 --> 01:01:09.304 I think the thing that you have to do if you are, as you, and, that's a more extreme version of going up into these different management jobs. 01:01:10.355 --> 01:01:30.275 and I would say that the most important thing to doing that is, is making sure that you respect the businesses that you're taking over, the people that are in, and what's been built before you got there. 01:01:31.114 --> 01:01:47.315 and it may be that, you go in there and you want to change things, but if you're gonna have credibility in changing those things, the people in that business have to believe that you understand their business, that you respect the achievements that have been, achieved in the past. 01:01:47.465 --> 01:01:49.625 And you need to take some time to establish that. 01:01:50.974 --> 01:02:04.355 if you come into a business, often, if you are, being put into a business as a new manager, or you are being hired

from outside, as I was at Nomura, where we had a few, issues that needed resolving at the time. 01:02:04.521 --> 01:02:14.820 the first, thing you have to do, is demonstrate, that you have respect for, what has gone before you. 01:02:15.661 --> 01:02:23.311 because in doing that, you'll gain the credibility to make the changes that you may feel are necessary to move forward. 01:02:23.701 --> 01:02:30.630 And if the people in that business think that you come in as a critic, they will not trust you. 01:02:31.951 --> 01:02:36.360 A 'cause they're not sure that you're qualified to be a critic yet, 'cause you haven't been there for very long. 01:02:36.690 --> 01:02:41.911 And b, because by its very nature a critic is, like an enemy. 01:02:42.331 --> 01:02:50.668 But if they believe that you are an advocate, then, they'll be motivated to, help you, to work with you. 01:02:50.969 --> 01:02:54.778 And then they'll come along with you on the journey of change that you need to have. 01:02:54.778 --> 01:03:06.268 So what you'll find is, when I came in here to Nomura, Nomura had a big problem, but the people and the businesses that I inherited were world class. 01:03:06.838 --> 01:03:09.838 The calibre of the people I have here is exceptional. 01:03:09.838 --> 01:03:11.969 They are the best people I've worked with in my career. 01:03:12.268 --> 01:03:20.099 And the things that they had achieved before I got here, which I've been lucky enough to be able to build on, were incredibly impressive. 01:03:20.548 --> 01:03:25.349 And yes, there were some short-term problems that needed fixing. 01:03:26.128 --> 01:03:31.259 and yes, there were some significant actions and changes that I wanted to take in order to do that. 01:03:31.708 --> 01:03:39.449 But you'd never hear me say a bad word about, the inheritance that I had because the inheritance that I had was excellent. 01:03:40.469 --> 01:03:47.278 and what, I was able to do was then add value to that. 01:03:47.759 --> 01:03:56.548 And I think, once people believe that you see that value, they will be much more inclined to help you make change. 01:03:57.148 --> 01:04:01.302 and they'll be much more inclined to trust the direction to take the business in. 01:04:01.963 --> 01:04:03.356 Yeah, I think that's really important. 01:04:03.356 --> 01:04:19.797 You said that how you show up and if you're, whether you are joining a new company, whether you're taking on a new role within an organisation, how you show up, how you set the tone, you want people to be on the journey and you want, people to trust you and, that comes down, words and actions aligning. 01:04:19.797 --> 01:04:24.476 And, so look, I have taken so many notes from this conversation. 01:04:24.476 --> 01:04:30.237 As always, I leave our conversations energised, buzzing with more, leadership insights. 01:04:30.567 --> 01:04:34.376 There are five that quick I, ice, not icebreaker, quick fire. 01:04:34.586 --> 01:04:44.757 and, these are like one word or single sentence, single sentence, statements because this is like the barbells, we've got to know you at the beginning a little bit. 01:04:44.757 --> 01:04:46.286 Who is Chris when he is not CEO? 01:04:46.527 --> 01:04:49.317 sitting in the CEO seat and we're gonna recap there as well. 01:04:49.317 --> 01:04:51.686 So if not finance, what industry. 01:04:52.144 --> 01:04:53.974 I definitely want to be a firefighter. 01:04:54.592 --> 01:04:57.202 Which I thought you were gonna say a sailor firefighter. 01:04:57.293 --> 01:04:57.443 Okay. 01:04:57.713 --> 01:04:58.643 What, okay. 01:04:59.873 --> 01:05:00.637 And what I don't know. 01:05:00.637 --> 01:05:01.918 I think like fire. 01:05:02.340 --> 01:05:04.829 Lots of hoses. 01:05:05.309 --> 01:05:05.610 Yeah. 01:05:05.735 --> 01:05:06.295 A firefighter. 01:05:06.789 --> 01:05:07.510 Firefighter. 01:05:07.750 --> 01:05:08.199 Okay. 01:05:08.199 --> 01:05:11.835 A book you've enjoyed, and I know you've, you read a lot of history, a book you've enjoyed. 01:05:12.289 --> 01:05:15.500 So I like pretty much anything by Dominic Sandbrook. 01:05:15.650 --> 01:05:18.679 'cause I, just, love his books. 01:05:18.980 --> 01:05:21.980 or Ben Macintyre for that reason, for that matter as well. 01:05:22.309 --> 01:05:22.699 He's, great. 01:05:22.699 --> 01:05:34.820 But the, if there's one book in the last year that I read, which I really liked, it's called The Finest Hotel in Kabul, it's by Lyse Doucet, who's A BBC reporter. 01:05:35.719 --> 01:05:50.599 and it's just an amazingly well-written book and it looks at Afghanistan and, all of the tribulations it's been through the eyes of the employees of a hotel in Kabul that she used to stay at as a reporter. 01:05:50.989 --> 01:05:51.730 It's a great book. 01:05:52.010 --> 01:05:54.019 So you should definitely buy it and read it. 01:05:54.402 --> 01:05:55.512 I'll buy that for my travels. 01:05:55.512 --> 01:06:00.407 Now, I know you are on a plane a lot of the time, so a streaming se, series or show you've enjoyed. 01:06:00.726 --> 01:06:05.496 the obvious one would be Ted Lasso, which I did. 01:06:06.155 --> 01:06:10.956 but I really enjoyed,'cause I'm a history buff. 01:06:10.956 --> 01:06:14.346 The Ken Burns, documentary series on Vietnam. 01:06:14.856 --> 01:06:17.885 I think Ken Burns is an amazing, documentary maker. 01:06:18.996 --> 01:06:29.465 and then for junk, watching, there was a series called For All Mankind, and it's a sort of space series. 01:06:29.826 --> 01:06:44.076 and it's an alternative history, where it starts out on the premise that the Russians got to the moon before the Americans and it has a sort of whole, multi-decade space race. 01:06:44.706 --> 01:06:48.666 it's a good watch, but it's obviously largely junk, but it's, really good. 01:06:48.969 --> 01:06:49.420 Okay. 01:06:49.480 --> 01:06:50.019 I like that. 01:06:50.019 --> 01:06:51.550 I always like a good recommendation. 01:06:51.849 --> 01:06:56.824 One app you use regularly on your phone, that's not WhatsApp, not text, not email. 01:06:57.280 --> 01:06:58.451 Yeah, audible. 01:06:59.072 --> 01:06:59.612 Or, okay. 01:06:59.853 --> 01:07:02.505 but, Audible is my most used app. 01:07:04.023 --> 01:07:11.313 and I, you have two daughters and I'm just curious, they've been with you on your, we talked about being on the journey. 01:07:11.313 --> 01:07:15.302 They've been on, your journey with you watching you lead at the highest levels. 01:07:15.302 --> 01:07:18.047 What's one thing you hope they've taken from your journey? 01:07:18.905 --> 01:07:20.945 I think aacouple of things. 01:07:20.974 --> 01:07:39.130 One is, I think from my perspective, when I started out, I, don't think anybody would've voted me most likely to become a senior manager, either at university or on the first trading desk I worked at. 01:07:39.840 --> 01:07:52.721 so I think the real lesson is that, that, where you end up is, hard to predict, but the possibilities are pretty broad. 01:07:53.201 --> 01:08:13.114 But I'd say the other thing that I would hope they would learn is that success or progress or doing interesting things, you don't have to be perfect because, if you had to be perfect, and make no mistakes and be great at everything, then I wouldn't have got anywhere. 01:08:13.653 --> 01:08:25.444 And so I think one of the things that when I look at this young generation, they're, a pretty interesting generation, but sometimes I worry that they feel like they have to be perfect at everything. 01:08:25.863 --> 01:08:32.314 And maybe that's pressures of social media or whatever, but you actually don't have to be perfect. 01:08:32.373 --> 01:08:39.543 And actually often it's your own idiosyncrasies that set you apart and, can make you successful. 01:08:39.543 --> 01:08:43.083 So you don't have to be perfect would be the lesson I hope they take from it. 01:08:43.851 --> 01:08:44.521 I love this. 01:08:44.542 --> 01:08:49.431 Look, thank you so much for, joining and I said a hugely enjoyable conversation. 01:08:49.431 --> 01:08:52.372 I look forward to many people benefiting from the lessons you've shared. 01:08:52.748 --> 01:08:53.139 All right. 01:08:53.229 --> 01:08:54.099 Thanks for having me.