התמלול המלא של Severe Mental Illness, Criminalization, and the Fight to Create Real Care. With Kimberly Bowman

diagnosis. It takes Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Kimberly Bowman: time because there is no blood test or any kind of Objective test that can be given. It takes observation, it takes information, it takes a lot of things to figure out the correct diagnosis. And with each change, you know, the you try this medicine, that didn't work, let's throw that away, let's try this medicine, that didn't work, let's throw that away. This was just very tumultuous, a very tumultuous time. and scary. It was very scary because something was clearly wrong in trying to get to the help that we needed. Because Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Kimberly Bowman: even though he was only such a young child, he controlled our world with his behavior. And he determined often what we were able to do or not able to do. Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Kimberly Bowman: And so meanwhile, I've got the psychologist that we're still seeing. Pushing us to push the psychiatrist to a bipolar diagnosis. Tabitha Zeigler: Mm. Kimberly Bowman: I didn't know anything about how to advocate at that point in my life. I didn't know what advocating even meant at that point. Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Kimberly Bowman: So when you have one authority telling you to tell another authority what they need to do, that is daunting. And Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Kimberly Bowman: we had Conversations, you know, with the psychiatrist. And she was aware of the familial history of mental illness in the family. but what I came to learn later is that she had a medical director of that practice who didn't believe in child onset bipolar disorder. That's Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Kimberly Bowman: a problem. not that he didn't believe in bipolar, he just didn't. believe in it for a diagnosis for children. But the the psychologist gave me a book to read, The Bipolar Child. And Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Kimberly Bowman: when I read that book, it was like reading a biography of my son. Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Kimberly Bowman: I mean, you could just insert his name in all the places. And Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Kimberly Bowman: it was exactly what we were living through. So I had that confidence after reading the book to have a serious heart to heart conversation with that psychiatrist. And I just remember that conversation so clearly because she was so resistant. And You know, she kept saying things like, she knew that there were families who sought diagnoses for the sake of financial gain and things like that. And Tabitha Zeigler: Mm. Kimberly Bowman: I can't remember exactly how she worded it, but it was it I just looked at her, I'm like, that's not us. I said, you know, if you think I want my child to be bipolar, you're wrong because I know what that means. I I very well Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Kimberly Bowman: know what that means. But if it is true. That's what he has, then we need to do something. We need to treat for it. We need to try. And again, she cautioned us that that is a very heavy-duty diagnosis for a child to carry because it will follow them. Once it's written down, you know, in the medical record, then it's part of the record. Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Kimberly Bowman: And she cautioned that it could keep him from getting life insurance, it could keep him from serving in the military, it could keep him from getting certain jobs, you know, all these things, which are all true, but it didn't make what we were discussing any less true. It was still true. So Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Kimberly Bowman: again, there's no test that we could say that he for sure was bipolar. You know, so the discussion turned to how do we find out? How do we figure this out? Well, you treat for it and watch and see what happens. Because with every other diagnosis that she had given him, every other one that we had treated with medication, everything went from bad to worse. Tabitha Zeigler: Mm. Kimberly Bowman: Nothing improved. It went was clearly within a week or two worse. And so then you know that's not the right track. He's not responding properly to the medication, so that can't be it. But when she began to treat him for bipolar disorder, within two, two and a half weeks, we started to see some improvement in his behavior. Tabitha Zeigler: Mm. Kimberly Bowman: And now it's like, okay, we're on to something now. And so that was at age nine. And so you know, somewhere around when he was, I don't know, fourteen or fifteen, our family went through a divorce. And that was very traumatic, as anyone can expect that to be. And so I'm sure that played into his mental stability too. But all during that time, from nine till 18, when we had control, it was just a series of managing. It was just Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Kimberly Bowman: constantly managing and nothing ever stayed the same because his little body grew, gained weight. Medications dosages need to change. his body could come up become accustomed to a particular medication and it would no longer work as well. She would make combinations and cocktails. You know, there's this one, but it causes a side effect. So we'll give him this one to counteract that side effect. So we were taking, you know, handfuls of pills a couple of times a day. He was, not me. And hormones change, all kinds of things. So it's just a really rocky roller coaster. And you know, he was, he was, it wasn't just him having trouble at home. He had trouble in every area of his life, you know, at school, Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Kimberly Bowman: in his personal life with friends. it it wasn't isolated. It was, Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Kimberly Bowman: you know, across all the parts of his life. And so we you know, made it through and he became 18, and I felt certain he's gonna stop his medication because he always threatened that he would do that when he was 18. Tabitha Zeigler: Mm, mhm. Kimberly Bowman: He he didn't do it on his eighteenth birthday, but he waited until his twenty first birthday, and that's when he stopped all of his medications,

all of his treatment, and said, you know, I've been on medication pretty much my whole life. And I don't want to do this. I want to be off of everything. I want to see how I do without anything. Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Kimberly Bowman: And things really spiraled over that next year, really spiraled badly. And so his bipolar diagnosis began to look more like schizophrenia instead of bipolar. So we started experiencing, you know, psychotic experiences. and it was during that year that he started, well, he started being homeless. You know, he had a girlfriend at the time, but she had because of the behavior, she's kicked him out. You know, she would start by locking him out for short periods of time and then it became permanently locking him out. And so he was really on the street. Professionally I was working at a state psychiatric hospital in administration. And so I began using the connections that I had built to try to navigate and get him help. which, you know, it worked for a little while it worked. but it it didn't last. And so over the course of that year and a half when he started to be homeless, the homelessness became permanent for the next 12 years. And so he's been homeless over nine different states and in a cycle of incarceration, homelessness, hospitalization, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat. and so that brings us up to present day. I think the biggest thing is during that period of time, I really learned what it meant to be an advocate. I didn't know what being an advocate really meant until all of this. And I think I learned I started learning about what it would mean to advocate for somebody that you love when he was in elementary school and we were having issues at school. And The school district that we were part of had a paid advocate. Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Kimberly Bowman: And, you know, her job was to help us get him the help and services through the school that the state was required to provide. And so she knew both the educational system, but she knew us and him and his needs, and she knew how to ask for the things that he needed. And we didn't know how to do all of that. I mean, she was amazing to watch in these meetings. And I was like, wow, okay. I I thought, I thought, you may have thought this too, that you know, the school districts would just offer help, right? They would see the Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Kimberly Bowman: need and they would provide the help that is needed and you didn't need to ask. But I came to learn that's so far from the truth, at least Tabitha Zeigler: Yeah. Kimberly Bowman: where I was living, it was so far from the truth. they're not gonna offer and you're gonna have to fight to get the services. I mean, you've got to really know, and that's what I learned from her, is you've got got to really know what your rights are and how Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Kimberly Bowman: to ask for them and and make them provide them. And so Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Kimberly Bowman: that was how advocacy for me began. It and it's really been a process of learning over these, you know, last you know, 15 years or whatever it's been, of understanding that the system it's it's gonna do what it does. And Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Kimberly Bowman: that isn't gonna be to take you by the hand and guide you through and and make everything as it should be. And so I've Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Kimberly Bowman: turned into what I am now. And it's not I don't want it to sound like, you know, I've arrived. I haven't, Tabitha Zeigler: Mm. Kimberly Bowman: but I've just been through Decades of this stuff, and Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Kimberly Bowman: I just gave you a very high-level view, but it's a very high-level view. There's a lot that goes into the last 45 years. That's just the the high points. And so when you're in the middle of it yourself, and you're trying to figure it out, you're Usually not, I'm not. I didn't feel like I was in a position to help anybody. I'm like, I need help. I don't know how to help you. Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Sure. Kimberly Bowman: but at some point along the journey, you a person, me, I I keep saying you and I don't mean you, but at some Tabitha Zeigler: No, I I understand. We're tracking. Kimberly Bowman: point at some point we learn that we know more than we think we know. We've been Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Kimberly Bowman: through enough that we know some stuff, and we've been doing it. Tabitha Zeigler: The parent becomes the expert. Kimberly Bowman: Yeah. We we've been doing it long enough that we kind of know some stuff. And and then we're in a position where we're able to help other people. And so that's where I'm at today. So where I'm at today is, you know, my son is now, you know, 34. He's I'm not gonna say all as well. it he's better than he's been in a long time, he's in a better situation than he's been in a long time, but he is not like. healed, he's not out of the woods, he hasn't achieved long term stability. I still worry about him. I still advocate. I still do all these things. But Tabitha Zeigler: Well, just to make it clear for people, because I Kimberly Bowman: Mm-hmm. Tabitha Zeigler: think this part's important. anybody that has not had the experience of a loved one that has dealt with bipolar disorder or schizophrenia, it's a hard thing to walk into and lived experience is key. So part of my story is my maternal grandmother was originally diagnosed with manic manic depressive. Plus schizophrenia. And then later that diagnosis turned into bipolar schizophrenia. So I as a child was watching my parents go through all of that because they became her legal guardian. my grandfather had, you know, they were like married and divorced, married and divorced because essentially he couldn't hack her diagnosis, but still loved her, got remarried, and he in between all of the things. He was trying to help what he thought was helpful, which was then going against my parents and going against the doctors. Yeah. So I'm

right there with you. I've seen it all. It's a lifelong struggle and it truly takes a community to do it. So go ahead and continue. Kimberly Bowman: Yeah, it's it's a lot. So I've reached a point in my life where it's like, okay, I think I've collected enough knowledge and information. how do I use this to help? What do I do? Because I'm a the way my brain works is I am all about seeing problems. I'm I can see the problems just like everybody else. But what I can't do is see a problem and if, especially if it's impacting me personally, I can't see a problem and just do nothing about it. I can't do that. I'm very solutions-minded. I'm very process oriented. It comes from my, you know, professional experience and the jobs that I've had. And you know, just like anybody else, you get you pick up experiences throughout life. and you find out what you're good at and what your skill sets are. And I have this thing where almost at the same time I can zoom out and zoom in at the exact same time. Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Kimberly Bowman: I can zoom out and see a big picture, the problem, but I only want to stay zoomed out for as long as I need to. And then I want to zoom in. And get to the root causes of those issues. What's the problems Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Kimberly Bowman: that we need to solve? Because I can't stand just sitting around complaining about things just to complain. And then you Tabitha Zeigler: Right. Kimberly Bowman: don't see any progress, nothing gets moved forward, the needle doesn't move. And I can't stand that. So trying to figure out what I can do, zooming out, zooming in, I've narrowed it down to understanding that we don't have a broken. Mental health system. And I used to say that all the time. Our system is so broken. That's what I used to say. But now I've come to conclude that's not really true. What's really true is that we never intentionally built a mental health system in the first place. That's the real Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Kimberly Bowman: problem. And what we've done over time is have a patchwork of things moving, like, you know, at the same time as time. We're not fixing anything. We're just patching, patching here, Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Kimberly Bowman: patching there. And I had to learn this through my experience. And him being homeless in nine different states really helped illuminate this for me to understand if you only live in one community and that's the experience you have, that's a myopic view of our mental health system. But Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Kimberly Bowman: if you've had to navigate Nine different states, because all the while I'm behind the scenes. Every time he's getting in trouble in a different state, Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Kimberly Bowman: I am literally behind the scenes looking into what are the services? Who are the providers? What are the laws? How can I help him? Who can I call? How do I alert them? You know, how do I help him navigate when he's resisting me the entire time? When Tabitha Zeigler: Mm. Kimberly Bowman: you have that experience, then you begin to see. Nothing's connected. There's really great things happening in this country. And I was fortunate to learn about a lot of those because I worked for NAMI, the National Tabitha Zeigler: Mm. Kimberly Bowman: Alliance on Mental Illness. That was one of my careers where I was an executive director of a local affiliate. Being Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Kimberly Bowman: exposed to a national mental health organization like that, I got to see the best of the best, you know, who are the best of the best in Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Kimberly Bowman: their fields. what communities are offering the best of the best programs, who has Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Kimberly Bowman: the best of the best laws, you know, all of that stuff. And so that's the zoom out. I see these wonderful things happening all over the country. But what I don't see, I don't care if it's in a community, a town, a county, a state, what I don't see is a collaborative, a coordination. I mean, there's collaboration, don't get me wrong. There is collaboration. I don't see a lot of coordination, a meaningful, intentional coordination. So that's what I've literally turned myself, my my whole attention now is that Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Kimberly Bowman: and building what I'm building. and so I've started, you know, a for-profit and a nonprofit in that endeavor. And this is my gonna be the capstone, you know, of my life and its work. Tabitha Zeigler: Can you talk about that a little bit more in depth if you're comfortable? Kimberly Bowman: Yeah, absolutely. So I started, it's called Insight to Impact. And the the for-profit side is where I offer myself I I've written a couple of books. so my writing, speaking, if I'm asked to speak at conferences, conventions, or even I used to be involved more in training law enforcement. Through crisis intervention training, which I love to do. So consulting with families, helping them to navigate this stuff. So that's all on the Insight to Impact LLC. And then in the foundation Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Kimberly Bowman: side is where I do the work of more CIT work. So I make myself available to any law enforcement agency providing Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Kimberly Bowman: that lived experience piece for crisis intervention training. I also am very passionate about the first responders because for two reasons. Number one, they're they've been very involved in my son's life, being Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Kimberly Bowman: arrested as many times as he has. And I'm very aware of the danger that comes when first responders are on the scene of a Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Kimberly Bowman: mental health crisis call. And that's why I got involved in CIT training. so I'm concerned about the safety of everyone involved on a call like that, but I'm also very concerned about the first responders' mental health themselves because they're at the highest risk for

suicide and mental health issues because of their work and what they see and what they do on a daily basis. So I have started a group. Called Pause for Impact, which is canine Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Kimberly Bowman: supporting first responders. Tabitha Zeigler: Mm. Kimberly Bowman: And we just started, you know, with a couple of counties where I live here, and then it's expanded Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Kimberly Bowman: to the whole state. and so I'm trying to build that. And I'm in, Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. And what state are you in, just for people that don't know? Kimberly Bowman: I'm in Michigan. Yeah. Tabitha Zeigler: Okay. So for any first responders that might be interested in reaching out to you, maybe from a city that you don't work with right now, how could they contact you? Kimberly Bowman: they can do that through my website, insight to impact Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Kimberly Bowman: mh for mental health.org. Insight to impactmh.org. Tabitha Zeigler: Perfect. Kimberly Bowman: three domain names flow into the same website. So if all you can remember is my name, Kimberlyabowman.com, you can go that that route as well. You can Tabitha Zeigler: Okay. Kimberly Bowman: also go to insight to impact foundation.org. All three Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Kimberly Bowman: take you to the same website. Tabitha Zeigler: Perfect. Kimberly Bowman: But the biggest thing on the nonprofit side of my work, this is my capstone, is I call it my BHAG, my big hairy, audacious goal. Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Kimberly Bowman: it's but it's a serious endeavor. I mean, this is not a pie in the sky wishful, hopeful thinking. No, I'm I'm seriously working on this. And that is to build America's ideal mental health system. So I want to compile some of these people that I have learned of, know about, interacted with, that are doing really, really wonderful work in their chosen disciplines. It could be judicial, law enforcement, clinical work, crisis response, you name lived experience is a big piece of that, the voice, but these professionals. getting everyone together, creating a national design commission to really dive in and let's put our expertise, our collective expertise together of what we know, what we've learned, and create from scratch, create an ideal mental health system, draw it out, Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Kimberly Bowman: map it out, plan it out. It's never been done that I'm aware of. Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Kimberly Bowman: And so like no hindrances. No bumpers, no stops, Tabitha Zeigler: Mm. Kimberly Bowman: just what what would we design? If we could design it the best way possible, what would it look like? And I want to do that. Tabitha Zeigler: Well, I think part of the problem too though, Kim, right, is you have a lot of people that don't have lived experience. That is concerning, right? Because if you had executives, caregivers, anyone really with lived experience, personal, familial, whatever, they could then paint a picture for these people rather than automatically go to Kimberly Bowman: Absolutely. And that's why, Tabitha Zeigler: institutionalization. Kimberly Bowman: yes. So that's why I'm huge on the lived experience community being part of this through every piece of it. They're not, they're not an outlier. They're intricately involved in the entire thing from beginning to end because you can't do this. You can't do it appropriately without the lived experience voice. Because They can make a plan. Professionals can make a plan, but the lived experienced voice will tell you whether that works or not, whether it will work or not. So it takes both. We're not, so you know, we've been put lived experienced voices, and I experience it every day. I'm sure you do too, where we're put on the outside of the room. We're never invited into the room. Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. Kimberly Bowman: And that's wrong. It's just wrong. And so if they don't want to invite us in the room, then we need to invite ourselves into the room. So that's why I'm doing this. And this isn't something that you I'm very passionate about this. I'm very protective of the mission and the vision. And I'm the guardian of it. And I know what I see and what I want to do. And I'm going to protect that from anybody Tabitha Zeigler: So Kimberly Bowman: that I want to hijack it and take it in their direction. Tabitha Zeigler: Right. Of course. So tell me if I'm wrong here. This is just where I'm seeing this. So you're looking for the helpers right now. Kimberly Bowman: What do you mean, the helpers? Tell me what you mean. Tabitha Zeigler: So I've I've often heard it said, you know, like Mr. Rogers, for example, like the helpers in the room that are actually trying to get the things done, but are also the doers. Kimberly Bowman: Yes. Yeah, so I don't know about you, but I'm a huge reader. I read, Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Kimberly Bowman: I'm an avid reader. and so there are a lot of people that know a lot. Tabitha Zeigler: Sure. Kimberly Bowman: And we need to capitalize on that. Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Kimberly Bowman: so there's some people that have already written about things, and we need to learn from that stuff. There are people who are doing things right now. There are people who have already done things. You Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Kimberly Bowman: know, I think about, you know, Judge Leifman down in Miami-Dade County, Florida, Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Kimberly Bowman: and how he started the you know, behavioral health court and it has a different name. I can't remember. It goes by a different name in different communities, but you know, he was one of the pioneers 20, 25 years ago in that. And Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Kimberly Bowman: he's shown us what it looks like to not criminalize and incarcerate people with mental illness. He's shown how it works. So I'm talking about people like that, these real giants who have pioneered things. There's somebody else in Arizona, a doctor

that I'm familiar with who she's an expert in crisis response. Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Kimberly Bowman: And you know, there's somebody else that's clinical and is an expert in anasygnosia. And I've I've been collecting all of these people. And then Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Kimberly Bowman: you know there's law enforcement people that bring that experience. It it takes all of us. We can't exclude Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Kimberly Bowman: any voice. It it it's going to take all of those voices. To get the right plan together. Tabitha Zeigler: Well, I think it's fabulous plan because I, you know, we had a conversation before this and I was like, wow. And I remember telling you, like, at this point in my life, with all the things that I've seen, you know, I only want to sit at tables with doers because I've heard a lot of talking and talking is fine if it ends to something. But if you're Kimberly Bowman: Yes. Tabitha Zeigler: constantly just talking and talking and not doing, that's actually not helpful for people. So even if you try something and don't get it right, you're still trying. And if in my experience, you can't put a price on lived experience. So, like for the autism community as an example with law enforcement, you know, there are some programs popping up where they're, you know, giving training programs and things like that, specifically so they can recognize what's happening. there's a few states now that they're giving their officers Or or nonprofits are providing their officers with like sensory toys and things like that. And Kimberly Bowman: Mm-hmm. Yep. Tabitha Zeigler: I just feel like that should be the last response, right? Because our police officers can't be expected to do all of the things, but we can Kimberly Bowman: Yeah. Right. Yep. Tabitha Zeigler: help them along. And if we give them, like you said, you know, like a a cr a crisis pack that's like, hey, Kimberly Bowman: Mm-hmm. Tabitha Zeigler: or Even a set of phone numbers in the example of XYZ call this number. Kimberly Bowman: Or how about the communities that are sending mental health professionals on ride-alongs with the police? Tabitha Zeigler: Yeah, absolutely. Kimberly Bowman: Or how about looking at something like Cahoots out in Eugene, Oregon, where they've been doing this for 20 years, where Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm hmm. Yeah. Kimberly Bowman: it's an EMS riding along with a mental health professional and they handle as long as a call comes in, you know, before 988 existed, it was, you know, just 911, but when the 911 calls came in. If it involved mental health and it wasn't violent and it didn't include, you know, weapons or anything like that, then it was the CAHOOTS team that responded to that call. And they could de-escalate all of those calls. They took, you know, 80% of the calls off of the law enforcement instead of occupying law enforcement. Law enforcement isn't intended to be mental health professionals. And we don't need to try to turn them into that, but we've had to equip them. Because oftentimes they are the first on the scene and they need to know how to de-escalate, how to how to recognize the situation? Because you've got seconds. A law enforcement officer has seconds, you know, maybe a couple of minutes to discern: is this somebody having a diabetic emergency that looks like psychosis? Is this somebody having a drug reaction that's psychotic? Is this somebody that's having a mental health crisis with a you know mental health diagnosis? Or is it just somebody doing something illegal? I mean, you've got seconds to determine what you're dealing with, and then what you decide you're dealing with then determines how you're going to respond to that call. Because if you're dealing with somebody who's having a diabetic emergency and you treat it like it's a mental health emergency, You could be costing that person's life because they really need an ambulance right now for a medical emergency. And so teaching, teaching law enforcement, I'm all about having tools, you know, putting tools in their toolbox. But I don't think that that's what we should be. That's not this is for my design commission that I create to decide because I'm not going to do the design. The design commission is going to do the design of the plan, but. in my opinion, we don't need law enforcement being the first on the scene for a lot of these calls. We just don't. Tabitha Zeigler: No. No, b because honestly, what happens and we've seen it especially lately, right? Like we're talking about now giving law enforcement and ICE officers, you know, like shock gloves and things like that. And instantly I thought of, you know, the autism community, disability community, mental health crisis. I was like, Great, let's make them more lethal. Like that's not helping anyone. So yeah, I I agree with you. If we can find a different Kimberly Bowman: Yeah. Yeah. So so the Tabitha Zeigler: way. Kimberly Bowman: we can. And there is a better way. And it's working in certain communities. There's evidence, Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Kimberly Bowman: there's proof. It's not hypothetical. and and so I talked to police officers, and you know, they're they're very resistant to this in some communities. They're like, no, no, you know, we gotta respond. It's law enforcement. I'm like, no, it really doesn't have to be law enforcement. And if it is law enforcement. Then it needs to be somebody trained in CIT. And the fact that you only have one officers, Tabitha Zeigler: Yep. The specialized officer. Kimberly Bowman: yeah, if you only have one officer or two officers in your entire department trained in that, which is what some of them will do, is they'll Tabitha Zeigler: Mm. Kimberly Bowman: only have one or two people trained in it. What Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Kimberly Bowman: if that person's unavailable or off that day? And then it just makes no sense. Now you have an untrained person responding. And it can go sideways really fast

or it can be de escalated Tabitha Zeigler: Yeah. And end in death. Kimberly Bowman: very successfully too. And and so that's what we're looking for, are those better outcomes. And so, you know, I'm kind of getting off in a tangent here about CIT and law enforcement and stuff, but Tabitha Zeigler: No, I think it's important though, especially considering some of the things that are going on right now, right? Like we we are having a nationwide conversation about law enforcement for a a variety of instances. So I do think it's very timely. And, you know, ha having a grandmother that suffered, you know, luckily most of the time when she was having an issue, people around her knew us and would call us. So we could prevent that, right? But for those people that are homeless unhoused, don't have family, what have you, the knee-jerk reaction is to call the police. And we not only need to educate the police officers, EMS, all of that, but also communities, right? And be like, hey, what you think you see may not be that thing. And if if you give them resources like what you're working on, that's just gonna create a a whole new way of doing things in the States. Kimberly Bowman: Yeah. And we're all looking for better outcomes because at the end of the Tabitha Zeigler: Absolutely. Kimberly Bowman: day, what I want is to see everybody safe. I want Tabitha Zeigler: Me too. Kimberly Bowman: the police officers to be safe. I want the people that are responding to the call to be safe. I want the EMS to be safe. I want everybody, I want the day, I want everybody to go home safely, you know, to their families and we have good outcomes. And but I'm very adamant, I'm very, very adamant that. the reason I want to create this this plan is we've got to get upstream. Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Kimberly Bowman: We cannot just be responding constantly to things. We have to get upstream and begin to prevent things from happening in the first place. And so I'm very adamant about that. And so this this plan that I'm talking about, it's huge, but it's so necessary and it's doable. It is absolutely doable. We've got enough information. We've got enough people, experts, experience, data. We've got enough to build something really great if we just set our minds to it and we have the will to do it. Tabitha Zeigler: question for you. Just as you're talking, I was thinking. Like I'm from a military family and I'm traveling in circles with a lot of military personnel. I wonder, do you need help from that community or do you have sufficient help from the military community on on your panel already? Kimberly Bowman: Well, I no, I do. We we need to include them because veterans are a big piece of the you know, military all Tabitha Zeigler: Yeah, PTSD and all of that. Kimberly Bowman: of it, all of it. And so even though pause for impact, I say canine supporting first responders in little parentheses, and sometimes veterans, because Tabitha Zeigler: Mm, mm-hmm. Kimberly Bowman: I do that's

a whole subsect in of itself, you know. Tabitha Zeigler: Yeah. Of course. Kimberly Bowman: so Yeah, we can't we can't ignore any population. That's an important population. Tabitha Zeigler: Well, I was just th and this is how my brain works. You know, I people talk and then I start to think about who I know, right? And Kimberly Bowman: Yeah. Tabitha Zeigler: there's a lot of people that I've been running into lately that that's sort of their expertise because that's their lived experience. And I'm watching this overlap, right? Because I'm like, right. Anywhere that you have trauma or mental health or, you know, the combination of of many Kimberly Bowman: Yes. Yep. Yep. Tabitha Zeigler: things, many overlaps, You're you're getting a really interesting mix of experts that have lived experience. So Kimberly Bowman: Yes. Tabitha Zeigler: I if you're comfortable with it, I'll Kimberly Bowman: Yeah, yeah. Tabitha Zeigler: make sure and pass on your contact information to a few people. I just wanted to make sure I didn't want to force it on you if you already had plenty of Kimberly Bowman: Absolutely. Yeah. no. Tabitha Zeigler: people in that range. Kimberly Bowman: No, no, no. I'm not excluding if there's a voice that needs to be at the table. We want to make sure. Of course, we can't have, you know, 500 people on our design commission because it would become Tabitha Zeigler: Of course. Yeah, yeah. Kimberly Bowman: unwieldy and counterproductive. But there Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Kimberly Bowman: needs to be somebody representing all of the important pieces. And many of the veterans have become law enforcement. So a lot of the law enforcement officers are previously veterans. So they they kind of hold feet in both both realms. So that helps Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Kimberly Bowman: too. but yeah. So anyway, I don't know what else you wanna talk about. You can pick my brain, ask me questions. Tabitha Zeigler: Well, you know, we've we've talked about a lot of things already. And I know that this can be exhausting. So I think let's just cut it for now and Kimberly Bowman: Okay. Tabitha Zeigler: let's have you back to talk more about your plans. because this is just sort of like an introduction into you and what you're doing and what you need and like how this community can help you, you know, achieve your goal. Kimberly Bowman: Yeah, okay, that sounds great. And then we can also talk about my books the next time too, because I want to get them into the hands of Tabitha Zeigler: Well go ahead and give your book a shout out. Kimberly Bowman: I've got two and I like to you know, it's not that I'm trying to self-promote. I didn't write this stuff to self-promote. I wrote this stuff to try to help people. Tabitha Zeigler: I understand. Mm-hmm. Kimberly Bowman: and so like this first one, no one told me. it's what every family needs to know about mental illness in America. And it's a little pocketbook, it's really small, Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Kimberly Bowman: but it's really seven lessons that I've learned that I really wished someone had told me 25 years ago, you know. Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Kimberly Bowman: and I really see this. I I bought, I have like literally given so many of these away to people. I, you know, in my walk, just in your normal walk of life, you'll come across people and you're like, here. This, I think this might help you. But I could see when we're talking about law enforcement on the scene of a mental health crisis. I could see this book being in every law enforcement or ambulance, fire truck. Tabitha Zeigler: Like their hazard kit. Kimberly Bowman: Yes, exactly. And that they could when they leave the scene, because I describe it to the law enforcement officers. I'm like, when you When you come to the scene of a what you determine or know is a mental health crisis call. In most communities, Tabitha, not every community, but in a lot of communities, I would say the vast majority of communities, and I talk to law enforcement all the time and I ask them this question: when you arrive at the scene of a mental health crisis, what are your options? And they always say, they paraphrase it in different ways, but really they usually have two options. One is they cart that person off to either the hospital or to jail. Those are typically the two options. Now, in some communities, Tabitha, there might be eight or ten options. Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Kimberly Bowman: Those are the really robust places that we want to look at how they're doing things. Because wouldn't it, I say to the law enforcement officers, what how would it make you feel if you had eight options instead of those two? Okay. So, but anyway, so they're at the scene, they take the subject off to wherever they're taking them. The family is left standing there. Sometimes if it's a first experience for them, you know, a first episode psychosis or first incarceration or whatever, and they've never experienced this before. The family, if you can just imagine them standing on the stoop of the house, they've just seen their loved one carried away, they don't know what's going on and they're confused. Who's helping them? That's how I see this little book being helpful. It's like you can read it quickly and it helps you get your feet on the ground and acclimate to what's going on because. These are the kind of people that used to call all the time to the NAMI office. And I would talk to them every week. I would take these calls from people, family members, and walking them through stuff. And so people have told me that they wish they'd had this book when they were going through something with their family, because it's just a quick shot to help acclimate them to what they're experiencing and not feel so. Alone because they feel like they're the only ones. This is I can't I can't believe this is happening. You know, why won't they tell me where they took my loved one? And why won't the hospital talk to me when I call them? I just want to know how my loved one is and they won't even talk to me. What am I supposed to do? So this is a quick seven lessons that everyone needs to know. The next book is more going into, I don't know if you can see this. Tabitha Zeigler: Just read it off. Kimberly Bowman: it says the system we never built. Severe mental illness, criminalization, and the fight to create real care. So this is Tabitha Zeigler: And where can people find these books? Kimberly Bowman: they can get them on Amazon, Barnes Tabitha Zeigler: Okay. Kimberly Bowman: and Noble. really they can order it from any bookseller anywhere, but Amazon is the Tabitha Zeigler: All right, I'll make sure Kimberly Bowman: easiest. Tabitha Zeigler: send me the links. I'll make sure and include them in the show notes just for people that ha are struggling to find it. Kimberly Bowman: Okay. So this book is going into a lot more detail. It's a full-length book and it's a deeper dive into a lot of the things you and I have been discussing here today. and so it everything that I do, Tabitha, whether it's speaking, consulting, writing, the CIT training, the pause for impact, everything that I do is pointing to that BHAG. Everything. including the books. So the B Hag is the big the big news that I'm working on. Tabitha Zeigler: Well, from where I'm sitting, I think we didn't know it when we started, but we're working on a little mini series here because we've got a lot to talk about. So we'll at least be splitting Kimberly Bowman: Okay. Tabitha Zeigler: this into two or three episodes. I'm the type that Kimberly Bowman: Okay. Tabitha Zeigler: I I like to spread knowledge and connect people to get things done. Cause like I said, I'm a doer. So once again, where can people find you? Kimberly Bowman: Insight to impact mh dot org or you can just find me at Kimberleyabowan.com. You can get me there too. Tabitha Zeigler: Awesome. and I end all of these the same way. If because we covered a lot today, if people get one thing from this conversation, what would you like them to remember about Kimberly Bowman? Kimberly Bowman: I want them to understand they're not alone. Okay, so that's why I share because I could just be silent and quiet and let my story be what it is and not tell anybody. But that wouldn't help people feel less alone. So I want people to understand you're not alone and that there is help available. So knowing what help is available helps somebody feel a little bit less alone. So Tabitha Zeigler: I think that's great. Well, hey, Kimberly, thank you so much for taking the time to come on and share your life experience with us. It's invaluable. we need you out there doing these things because as we know, there's a lot of work to be done and not a lot of people doing it. So thank you so much. I very much appreciate your time and I can't wait to have you back. Kimberly Bowman: Thank you, Tabitha. I appreciate you so much.