התמלול המלא של Breaking Down the Blue Wave with McClung & Hayden

feel like they were gonna take that seat. but he obviously overperformed even internal DFL polling, and he's only down by four votes. So obviously, four votes. This is pretty crazy. Brian, Jeff Hayden: Wow. Wow. Tara Erickson: what I want to talk to you about is What do you think happened? What do you think happened with your Brian McClung: Yeah. Tara Erickson: party? And yeah, let's just let's just talk about it. Cause I have my feelings. I've talked to a couple of other Republicans today Brian McClung: Yeah. Tara Erickson: and we differed, I guess, a bit on what we thought happened. But I just what do you think happened? Brian McClung: Yeah, well, th it's really clear what happened, but it happened across the entire country. So this is not a Minnesota story. This Tara Erickson: Yeah. Yeah. Brian McClung: is a national story. And I've been saying this a lot today and last night, but Tip O'Neill, the Speaker of the House, used to say all politics is local. Well, now we know that all politics is national. All of these races are nationalized. That voter turnout is because Minnesota Democrats are motivated to g turn out and send a message to Donald Trump. And in Minnesota, we had an additional layer of stupidity from the Trump administration when it came to Operation Metro Surge. And Tara Erickson: Operation Metro Third. Yep. Brian McClung: so what you saw across the country and more broadly on that nationalization of this election Mary Lahammer: Was that true? Brian McClung: was number one, starting with the tariffs. The tariffs especially impacted states like Minnesota that are heavy agricultural and food-based economies. That's about 25% of our state's economy. And so that was a a bad start to begin with. Then you had Operation Metro Surge, totally ham-handed, totally mishandled, just an absolute disaster on a number of levels. And then you have the war in Iran and taking gas prices from mid-2 to mid four dollars, and the you know, impact on groceries, on on diesel costs, how everything gets around in this country. I mean. Lots of times the economy it might not be great, but people are like, well, how much is that controlled by the president? So what are they doing? Here you have a direct line from the president's policies and actions to people's pocketbooks. And so I think the Republican candidates that ran, especially Michelle Tafoya Lisa Demuth and Ron Schutz, three of the best candidates Republicans have had in Minnesota in decades. These are quality candidates who ran good races, who were on message. They didn't make major slip-ups. They didn't, you know, do anything terribly wrong. I think they all kind of ran the races they wanted to run. They just Tara Erickson: Mm-hmm. Brian McClung: came up against the headwinds that were impossible to overcome. So I don't think the takeaway ought to be like we got the wrong candidates or they didn't know what they were doing. I think this is just one of those cases of running into this. overwhelming impact of of what we saw across the country. Tara Erickson: So Jeff, yeah, go ahead, Mary. Go ahead. Mary Lahammer: I was going to follow Brian, but isn't there a little come to Jesus conversation about what the party is going forward? Not just Trump, but what the party is? Yeah. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Brian McClung: Yeah, get rid of Donald Trump. Yeah, a thousand percent. forget about it. We are never gonna win in Minnesota while they have while Republican candidates have to tow a line between common sense and normalcy and this absolute nightmare that has been Donald Trump. the let's be realistic about it. these candidates all have to kind of navigate that, and they're trying to turn out the Republican base, many of whom are big Donald Trump fans. But they're trying to also grow their numbers because that's not going to get you to 50% plus one. And it was just fundamentally, I think, an impossible task. So this is the beginning of the end of the Trump era. He's a lame duck president who lost both houses of Congress. So I call that a super lame duck. And for two years, I mean, there's no h chance that he gets anything out of this Congress, right? It's done. So now we've got to figure out what the party Tara Erickson: So but Brian, do you Brian McClung: is after that. Tara Erickson: so think Mary Lahammer: Mm. Tara Erickson: about the fact that when Trump ran, he ran on populist types of things, right? And so, but then never did those issues. he, so he ran on him. He's a narcissist, he lies. So those things never happened. Do you think because of his narcissism? I mean, like the interviews that he's giving, he's like, if I was on the ballot, none of this would've happened, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Do you feel like if he wanted to cut some deals on maybe some economic impacts on maybe reversing the healthcare cuts that potentially could kick off up to 17 million, you know, million Americans off of their health insurance? That's just Medicaid. Like that's not even you know, some of the commercial subsidies and all of those things. Do you think that there's a a route for him that he would potentially cut some deals so that he it isn't Jeff Hayden: Mm-hmm. Tara Erickson: completely he's not a lame duck the next couple of years. Like he he likes to have attention. Yeah. Mary Lahammer: He likes to be relevant. Let's just write doesn't he like to be relevant? He can't stand irrelevance. Brian McClung: Wasn't that the part of one of the craziest things from last night is when the reporters get Donald Trump on the phone Jeff Hayden: Yeah. Brian McClung: and he's like, I welcome the Democrats. I want to work with them. they're like, What what's happening? Not only is he not denying it and saying it was rigged and all the usual stuff, he's like, Yeah, I'm I'm ready to Jeff Hayden: Yeah. Brian McClung: roll up my sleeves and work with these Democrats. It's like, what? Did you get the right person on the phone? Mary Lahammer: Right. So Brian McClung: It was

crazy. So, but I think you're right, Tara. I do think there is a there is a chance he I don't Donald Trump doesn't just want to sit there and veto everything. Like I think he's gonna look for some openings. I don't really know what that looks like. And he has such a bad track record of following through, even when he does has kind of you know had some conversations like that where he's tried to negotiate stuff with Democrats. So we'll see what that actually looks like in practice. But I think you're right on on the healthcare issues, I think on housing, we've Tara Erickson: Yeah. Brian McClung: been working on some affordable housing issues in Minnesota and and on the federal level. Yeah, and here's Tara Erickson: Yeah. Yeah, you've got a big campaign coming up for seven. Yeah. Brian McClung: the thing Trump likes to build stuff, right? So Tara Erickson: Mm-hmm. Brian McClung: can you appeal on housing? there's some things we could do here and like get him into that mindset. So Jeff Hayden: Yeah, but here's the h here's the problem, if I may. I i Tara Erickson: Yeah. Jeff Hayden: i Trump Trump likes to come up with deals, but two things. Like what a deal is two sides of a deal. So what are you what are you giving him in order to Tara Erickson: Mm-hmm. Jeff Hayden: get that Tara regardless of his Medicaid repeals or Tara Erickson: Sure. Jeff Hayden: or putting Obamacare back together, tax subsidies, or you they did a big package on Housing Brian and they want to extend that and and figure out national zoning stuff, snap benefits, whatever Tara Erickson: Snap benefits, whatever that looks like. Yeah. Jeff Hayden: but what do you get in return? So that's number one. Second thing, the progressiv or in general, the progressives are already saying that they're coming there to indict him. They're coming there to put him on trial and they're coming in there Tara Erickson: Mm-hmm. Jeff Hayden: to get him out. Right? and they Tara Erickson: Yeah. Jeff Hayden: they they didn't come here Mary Lahammer: Probably not impeach him, Jeff. Do you think probably not impeach him, but maybe impeach Hegseth? Jeff Hayden: Well, I mean what I mean that would be kind of like what we would what I would do, like some pragmatic person that would kind of take a bite out of and then cut some deal that to help people. But I'm just saying that I think that there are a lot of people, and you could hear it already now. we'll see what what Lieutenant Governor Flanagan w wants to do as a as a US as a younger Tara Erickson: Yeah. Jeff Hayden: US senator is gonna be a progressive. And so are they gonna want to they're already saying that Hakeem is gonna have a hard time kind of getting there, Schumer is gonna have even a harder time getting there. So there's kind of like, you know. w what I now will call in my age old fashioned deal making to really help people give something that really doesn't matter to you, save face, but then do stuff that really helps people. Is that really what

they're gonna wanna do? So I think Trump will do a deal in a minute, but what's that? Is it okay, throw Hegseth under the bus? Is it military funding? Is it put Tara Erickson: Military funding again. Yeah. Jeff Hayden: a b you know give give a bunch of people immunity? But are Are the caucuses, are the conferences I think they call, are they gonna wanna do that? That's gonna be interesting to me. Tara Erickson: Mm-hmm. Nope. I yeah. Mary Lahammer: What about yeah, what about the people we're sending? Cause you talk about you know, does senator elect Flanagan have like a progressive cohort? Does US representative elect Little too? I mean, they're going there as fire brand progressives. Are they Jeff Hayden: That's right. Mary Lahammer: in the majority? Are they gonna be effective or are they just gonna be like, here's the map, Tara's got the map? Are they just gonna be like Congress? Yeah. Tara Erickson: So look at this Senate map, you guys. the fact that Mississippi, I just sat there in a Jeff Hayden: Right. Tara Erickson: room full of people at the hotel last night and I walked out because they were watching a different, a different channel. And I came out and I said, the Democrat just took the lead in Mississippi and he's 28 votes ahead. And everybody just sat there and stared at me. I'm sorry, what? I said, I said, yeah, yeah, Jeff Hayden: Right. Exactly. Brian McClung: Yeah. Tara Erickson: like this is what's happening, you guys. Brian McClung: Well, I Tara Erickson: So look at what Jeff Hayden: Yeah. Tara Erickson: we're looking at, Texas, Nevada. Nevada flipped for governor. Mary Lahammer: Yeah. Yeah. Ryan, look at this map. Yeah, the Jeff Hayden: Yeah. Mary Lahammer: south. Yeah. Jeff Hayden: Georgia. yeah, these guys, John Ossoff is already gonna you know, gonna be in a presidential mode, if you will. He's not Tara Erickson: Absolutely. Jeff Hayden: here to like I mean, I I think he's a fine individual and he's gonna want to do the right thing by his folks, but these folks are coming in for blood. El Said in Michigan, are you serious? You think that he's gonna sit back after all the things that that that Trump has done in in in the Middle East, and in Tara Erickson: Mm-hmm. Jeff Hayden: his relationship to Israel and wanna cut a deal? He wants to do right by Michiganders, if you will. But he also wants to go after the president. So that's that's what I think is gonna be the tale of yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. Mary Lahammer: And so does Peggy Flanagan. You guys heard her on the podium last night. You come for us, we come for you. She was very clear. She is not done coming for the president. Jeff Hayden: Absolutely. So what so so what happens Brian McClung: Well I you and you Yeah. Jeff Hayden: and then and then do they overreach? that's one of the things that we've been talking about a little bit Tara Erickson: Mm-hmm. Jeff Hayden: is like the people that really got them there. I mean, there was their base plus. Those folks are there because, you know, gas is too high, right? you go to c I told them I went to Costco the other day, I felt like everybody had half a basket. You go to Costco, everything's filled to the brim and people were really including myself, picking and choosing what they want, right? Like so those folks were going for that reason farmers flipped over and and started to either not vote or vote for Democrats because they want this this war over and these tariffs done so they can get their food to market. However, is the people who they who who they voted for, are they going to be connected to that or are they going to go there to indict and put President Trump on on trial and the kick come out? I don't know if those two things could coexist. Mary Lahammer: Yep. True. Brian, do you almost hope Democrats overreach so you have a chance and it doesn't take 'cause I heard I had a Republican tell me that it's gonna take two election cycles to recover from this level of devastation, not one. Brian McClung: Well, we'll see. that's the thing. The it used to be like that, right? The pendulum always swings in American politics. This is the one Tara Erickson: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Brian McClung: thing we know for sure. It'll go one way, it'll come back. That used to be a pendulum swing of four to six years, Mary Lahammer: Yeah. Brian McClung: and then it would come back. More recently, it's been every two years, right? We are having a big shift every two years. And so we'll see whether this one takes a little longer or not. I don't know that it necessarily will. Because just as as quickly as it goes one way, it can come back just as fast. and I was having a conversation with a reporter earlier today, comparing, the Trump 2024 numbers in Minnesota with Tafoya in 2026 and looking at where there's a shift. And I said, it's almost not even a real comparison, because in 2024, gas was two dollars a gallon and there was no war in Iran. And we were blaming Biden and out of control spending for the inflation. And so it's a totally different set of circumstances than what, when Michelle Tafoya is running in 2026. So all of these things that seem, I think a lot of people were talking about, after some of these recent Republican sweeps, well, there's a permanent kind of red majority in some of the like. Nothing is permanent in American politics. Just ask the people in Kansas and Texas, right? nothing is permanent. But at the same time, and I don't know, you don't ri necessarily need Democrats to go wild on impeachment, all of that. There will be other things that happen that will appear to be an overreach from the American people. And so it'll come back around. The conversation will be different, in the in the six months or so. Tara Erickson: So you guys, I keep asking this question to different people that I talk to. And so, where is the balance on going after and holding people accountable for not following the constitution, for the blatant corruption and all of these things that are

happening? But still Jeff Hayden: Yeah. Tara Erickson: trying to I guess, help the American people with, you know, so many of the things that have been cut. where do you think that balance or what will the American people want? Do they want accountability for this more? Or do they want results? And they're like, that's why we threw them out. Now just go and get results. What do you think by about that? Jeff Hayden: Well, I think that they want both, right? And I think it's especially when there's clarity on the constitution. So, for us in Minnesota, you know, there were unconstitutional things that were being done and our civil liberties were being violated. And I think Attorney Tara Erickson: Mm-hmm. Yep. Jeff Hayden: General Ellison is you know, really hot to try Mary Lahammer: Yeah. Jeff Hayden: to laser like focused on those issues. I think at the same time, they want you to go there and figure out how to get that farm bill done, right? Like how Tara Erickson: Sure. Jeff Hayden: to figure out the stuff we worked, we've worked on Tara How to ri reduce, the harms that this Medicaid eligibility is gonna have. Tara Erickson: Mm-hmm. Jeff Hayden: How to figure out how to get, you know, some of these subsidies in the individual market, right? Like how to all the, you know, like there's stuff that you need to do and there's things that you need and people you need to go after in order to make sure that we can kind of that the rule of law is back in place. And I think we can do both. I think that the biggest issue is are the leaders what whoever becomes the leaders of the conferences or the of the call. Are they able to effectively deputize people to do both and and also get the younger, more progressive members who are amazingly talented people, right? And and young is relative, right? Like these are people in their 40s and stuff like that. I mean, the Senate and Tara Erickson: Mm. Jeff Hayden: you know the the those those institutions are so old. But can they kind of like come back to their Mary Lahammer: Okay. Jeff Hayden: constituency and say that they're fighting on their behalf, but at the same time, you know, whatever the farm bill or whatever. What I you I d I don't do federal work, but whatever those big appropriation Tara Erickson: Yeah. Jeff Hayden: stuff. Are Tara Erickson: Yep. Jeff Hayden: they gonna let can can can Betty go there and you know now be the appropriations chair of the defense budget and actually bring home the bacon and all of that kind of stuff. Like and and and Tara Erickson: Sure. Jeff Hayden: I also say this I I think it is fantastic that Amy is gonna be our governor. it is unfortunate. I I support the Lieutenant Governor Flanagan. I also thought that Angie Craig was amazing. She also was in line to be the chair of the of the of the ag committee that isn't happening anymore. And Amy was Tara Erickson: A committee. Yeah. Jeff Hayden: like the vice chair or the second in command or however the structure is. Mary Lahammer: Right, but maybe Angie Craig will still go to the US Senate because Amy Klobuchar has to make an appointment to replace herself. No, who do you guys think? Brian, you look like you have an idea. Brian McClung: Well, you can't I I I don't know who she's gonna pick, obviously, but I think you I I think she would be hard pressed to pick the candidate who lost by twenty percentage points to the US Senator, right? So you're gonna have Mary Lahammer: Even though she's a fellow moderate, because I gotta tell you, day one of governor elect, it was moderation. I don't know if you heard that press conference, but she was all about I am gonna reform government, audit it top to Brian McClung: Course. Mary Lahammer: bottom, I'm working with business. And I was like, governor, how are you gonna get that through your DFL legislature? Brian McClung: Well, she's gonna say no. she's gotta use the veto pen. That's a whole nother conversation. But for starters, you can't Mary Lahammer: Right. Yeah. Brian McClung: appoint the person that the other US senator defeated in the primary and have a knife fight between your two US senators on day one. So Mary Lahammer: Okay. Right. But she is a moderate. Jeff Hayden: But it was why, it was why. It was why Angie lost, is the issue. So more than anything else, it was not only the margin, it was why. And the quintessential issue for Democrats was Metro Surge. And that is essentially Angie's vote. We all know this on Lake Riley was the reason. Really, then we might have got to another layer of issues. We didn't even get to like APAIC or we didn't really even get to like the tech brothers and all of the cryptocurrency stuff that I think was Tara Erickson: Kip. Yep. Jeff Hayden: also problematic. It really was. about Metro surge. There's no then that's that's what thrested Peggy to the top. I just don't think that that's who she she Mary Lahammer: Jeff, what about the trifecta though? Because I I did pose that to Governor elect Klobuchar that everybody says, DFL trifecta, they're gonna run wild. I don't see Amy Klobuchar and a progressive DFL trifecta getting along on everything easy shmeezy. Tara Erickson: Mean you guys she said no new taxes. I I Mary Lahammer: Right. Just to pass the budget. Jeff Hayden: Yeah. So so I Mary Lahammer: There's a deficit looming. Jeff Hayden: well well first of all you just hit it, Mary. There isn't $18 dollars to spend, right? I'm sorry to I gotta do it. Tom Bakk once told me there's too much there's sometimes there's too much money around here. And so the the the idea if you put that together and there's so much money there's not. secondly, Tara Erickson: Jeff, I've wanted to poke that bear today so bad. I haven't done it though. Jeff Hayden: I know, I know, I know. I gotta I gotta do two. I gotta do the thing. So I think it's different. The other thing is Governor Walls kind of said, Hey, you guys go work it out. I'm doing other stuff. I'm gonna go talk to people rap, you know, who

like be the cheerleader. You guys put stuff on my desk and I'm pretty you know, I'll weigh in a bit here and there, but I'm gonna sign it. I think from day one, Amy, like, because of who she is, is gonna have a team. She's gonna be very much involved with it. She's gonna be much like Mary Lahammer: She's already called called every legislative leader. She's already calling rank and file. Brian McClung, she is reminding Jeff Hayden: Yep. Yep. Mary Lahammer: me of a certain governor that very well and worked with. Is isn't Jeff Hayden: Well, I was going there. I was absolutely going there. Mary Lahammer: Klobuchar more like Pawlenty than any modern? Brian McClung: no new taxes, right? Who's were you guys gonna g s start hassling her for being too close to Grover Norquist, and Americans for tax reform. yeah I Tara Erickson: I just threw up you guys. this is her Mary Lahammer: This is the Yeah. Tara Erickson: transition team. So Brian McClung: yeah. Jeff Hayden: Is this is this is this fresh off? I haven't seen this yet. That's yeah. Tara Erickson: It is. This is her transition team. some great names. I've already talked to Kim Norton today, obviously outgoing mayor, very moderate Democrat from Rochester. I talked to Tony Sertich today, so that's great. Dan McConnell's really kind of bringing in that labor side of things. so here is her transition team. yep. Mary Lahammer: Doug Baker from Ecolab. That's a very pro business. Absolutely. McClung, Jeff Hayden: Yeah, it's a big deal. Yeah, yeah. Tara Erickson: Yeah. Mary Lahammer: am I totally crazy to say that she reminds me a little of a Tim Pawlenty Republican governor so far? Brian McClung: Well, I th I think what what you're seeing here, and it's it shouldn't really come as a surprise to all of us who've been known and have watched and worked alongside Senator Klobuchar for all of these years, that she very much has her own brand and defines Tara Erickson: Mm-hmm. Brian McClung: it and t goes to great pains to clearly lay out that message. And I mean, that was one of the key points in her election night speech. Which was spoiler alert, you're not always gonna like what I do. she's laying it down from minute one. And her speech on election night, I was listening to it after we were at KARE 11. It was almost like a state of the state address. I mean, she went deep on policy issues. I kept thinking like, she's probably gonna wrap it up and then she'd launch into a whole nother section, right? Like she was ready to go with what she wanted to talk about. And frankly, that is very refreshing. And I fully support it. One of my strongest criticisms of Tim Walz has been that we never knew what his priorities were, that he was never clear on what was an absolute yes or an absolute no. Governor Pawlenty used to send letters to conference committees and they would wait. They'd get that letter, and it's like, do this, do this. And if you do this, it's getting vetoed. And it was clear what he expected and wanted

to see. And we real haven't had that in a long time. And I think that Senator Klobuchar, Governor Elector Klobuchar, is gonna be much more direct and much more clear about priorities. And I think I think that's beneficial to the whole process. Mary Lahammer: Yeah, if I can jump in Jeff Hayden: What but I I yeah. Mary Lahammer: just on that, if I can just follow up, because there's details even on the top to bottom audit that she went through today. You talk about a state of the state. When we ask, what is this top to bottom audit? turns out she has this five point plan appointing an independent senior leader to do the audit work with the inspector general and work with Minnesota management and budget and coordinate with the legislative auditors. And the agencies will also have a process for reporting fraud and will work with. Whistleblowers and yeah, she already had l calls with all four legislative leaders and then she's also calling other legislative leaders. I mean what she's done on day one is frankly maybe more than Tim Walls did in four to eight years, possibly. I don't know. Is that fair? Okay. Jeff Hayden: So so let me so so let me play the other side of this just just for it. i i I appreciate the the governor-elect and I think that it is really clear what she wants to do. But she but as being a former legislator, legislative leader, right, the legislature still makes the decisions. They're still the people who have to pass the bills, right? And you know, the veto Tara Erickson: Yep. Yep. Mary Lahammer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Jeff Hayden: pin is is heavy, but they are going to and these folks are gonna be able to push back and not not necessarily on how she runs her office and how she runs her the the State Departments, but in terms of what they wanna spend, how they want to spend it, they're gonna have a set of priorities that they're gonna wanna put in front of her. And she may or may not like and they're gonna have to push back. These are also the people remember that came down and beat down the governor's door, right? Or along with when they when they vetoed or w Tara Erickson: Yeah. Jeff Hayden: or w when they were doing the the the Mary Lahammer: literally, not figuratively. I was on the other side of that door. Literally pounding the door down, opposing the deal. Yeah. Yep. Jeff Hayden: No, literally yeah, literally beat down the door on the on the on the immigrant healthcare on the on the Medicaid Tara Erickson: Mm. Jeff Hayden: for for immigrants stuff. beat on I I I talked to an I won't I won't name one of the people was knocking on the door and I What were you doing? He's like, I don't know, that's that's what they told us to do. I mean, you know, like he was just beating on the door. I'm like, Well you should have just walked in. I never had to beat on the door that you know. So my point is that this this group Mary Lahammer: The door was locked, for the record. The door was locked. Okay. Jeff Hayden: Yeah, well I usually yeah, I used to find a way. But there usually is a way. that this this is this is a group of people that if you you have to have a and you should have com a a conversation with them, you know, kind of talk about some of the things that they want. I think I thought that the senator, the governor elect did a really good job getting in communities, getting in communities of color, working with progressive legislators. So I think that she knows what she wants, but I also think that she's pretty smart at knowing this is what I want and we're probably gonna have to like meet in the middle somewhere. I don't think that she's gonna run the table, but I think that she is gonna give them some real good guidelines on the kind of things that she wants to do. Mary Lahammer: Okay, one more thing on this. There is no middle on tax increases. She has said no new taxes and I think there's a whole host of progressives who are gonna want Jeff Hayden: Yeah. Mary, you've been around long enough to know that just because she says it doesn't make it so. So I guess I'll just take that on. I don't care. Mark Dayton said a lot of stuff that he wasn't gonna do when I got it done. The Governor Walz said that the same thing. Maybe not Pawlenty as much. Mary Lahammer: Okay, and yeah, and Brian McClung, Tim Pawlenty did sign a no new tax increase. Brian McClung: Health impact fee. the three words. Tara Erickson: They had a seventy five cent health impact fee. Brian McClung: Health impact fee brought to us by our friend, the state representative from Northfield. and yeah, so I mean think that they're gonna look for some other opportunities for revenue, and there are some out there. sports betting is one of those. There are other, you know, fees and adjustments that you can make. not currently, but hope hopefully soon. Tara Erickson: Ryan, do you work on any of those issues? Okay. Jeff Hayden: Yeah. I do, I do. I'll I'll I'll I'll I'll Brian McClung: Yeah, Jeff does. Hopefully soon. I you know, that's one. I think like I mean yeah. Jeff Hayden: Yeah, this this this meta settlement. There may be other kind of tech settlements out there. There's you know, there's there's gonna be I mean, it won't be big pots of money, but it may be enough for legislators that need things in their district to be able to get in an ordinary so that there isn't like new taxes or that they're not gonna kinda hold this up. I I think she's skillful enough to do it, but there are gonna be there's fifty new legislators, there's a ton of new democrats, and there is an emboldened group of now senior legislators who have kind of gotten their way. overtime and I think that they're gonna, kinda still wanna get their way. Tara Erickson: You guys, can we talk about some of the crazy places that flipped, right? just some locations in the state where I I couldn't believe that Ben Bakeberg, who was obviously a House member, but was running for the open Senate seat, which was held by by Pratt, who then was running for

Congress. But I mean, that is prior lake. And those areas, I mean, that was very G O P. Up until well, right about now. So for Ben Bakeberg to lose in that area, that was just absolutely shocking to me. And so it it brings me back to what the main message, obviously, for Republicans was, which is about fraud and the horrific like what has happened in our state. Like people have lost faith. I have lost faith in the Department of Human Services. And I'm gonna give you an an example about something. I had to meet with Joe Thompson yesterday. I have I'm doing an event next week. and I've got a number of journalists who wrote on fraud, and Joe Thompson coming to speak to a a lot of folks around disability services and the fraud that they were finding. And so I wanted to pre-meet with him and I asked him yesterday, I'm like, can you just kind of tell me the process of how this all worked, like with you meeting with DHS and all of this, right? And Was it the inspector general or because they, you know, OLA? Like, how'd you do this? And he looked at me and he said, I I don't know what to tell you, other than I have never once, not one time have I ever met with somebody from the Department of Human Services. Never, not one time. So, like Amy Klobuchar has a real problem on her hands. Yeah. Jeff, you wanna hop in with that? Jeff Hayden: Yeah, I I Mary Lahammer: Whoa. Jeff Hayden: I well, I Brian McClung: Yeah, check that. Jeff Hayden: mean I mean guess I yeah, I mean that's I mean, that's hard to hear, but it's not surprising. we have been talking about some of this stuff for a quite a long time. I was working with y f soon to be former Mary Lahammer: Mm-hmm. Jeff Hayden: Senator Abeler in probably fourteen or fifteen when it looks like daycare was like they were kind of stretching the rules and pushing against Tara Erickson: Yep. Yep. Yep. Jeff Hayden: the walls and we wanted to reel them in where people were starting daycares and the only employees were people who had kids, right? That was kind of a thing. And then that kinda rolled into it and then of course when, you know, pandemic showed up and and all of the other things that just allowed to have no reins on it. I I it it pains me also because a lot of the programs that we, the housing stabilization service, the the the autism stuff, I was a part of the formation of that because the need was there. And these were great ideas theoretically that we thought made sense and we went to the feds and got the 1114 waiver to be able to do this stuff. This was very innovative stuff. We were going around the country and everybody thought we were ahead of the game. None of us knew though that when we got the money, we got the waiver and we sent it to the department that they didn't have the capacity or whatever and the heck that was going on, that they just closed their eyes and that the money just turned to foster on and didn't care where the water went, Mary Lahammer: Awesome. Jeff Hayden: right? So it's and and it's also very disappointing because all of us, you know, care about the people That it was supposed to go to. And so the travesty is obviously the money and the taxpayer money that went down the drain or in the Lamborghinis or wherever the world went, but also the people who it was intended to go to, right, didn't get the services. And now we're starting to peel the onion back on that. And so we we know who the face of this was, but now we're finding out that there were social social workers and therapists and other people who were actually signing off on this stuff, right? So I think that the overhaul, I think the department needs to take as much. much blame as possible, need to retool it, need to figure out what you need to do. I think there's a real opportunity to do that. But at the same time, people who got the money need to be held accountable. But there are a lot of professionals that took the hip the the the the oath of do no harm that was involved in this, right? Behind the scenes. And as they start to peel that back, this was kind of a system wide failure of a lot of people. Mary Lahammer: What about the experts, the legislative experts? 'Cause you just mentioned Senator Jim Abler from Anoka who lost Brian. One of the things we haven't talked about yet is the moderates are gone. Danny Nadeau, Jim Abler. I mean, those are some really effective Tara Erickson: Those are two lawmakers I would not want gone. Right? Brian McClung: Yeah, right. Could we swap, could we pick a couple of people and swap those two back in? yeah, I Mary Lahammer: are you gonna name the ones you want out? Brian McClung: I've j you know, I'm not a lobbyist, but I still don't want to get in trouble like that. you know, Mary Lahammer: Yeah, I heard that. Tara Erickson: Yeah. Brian McClung: yes, I think you know, we have seen this is the continuation of an ongoing trend. And, you Tara Erickson: Mm-hmm. Brian McClung: know, part of this has been that the party endorsement process and the people that are showing up at that level. are, drifting more and more out of the mainstream of but even their own political parties. And so the people that come up through that process and end up on the ballot are now are more further to the right, further to the left. We have, you know, DSA candidates on the Democratic side. Then we've got this kind of MAGA wave of Republicans, you know, some of whom are in the legislature now. so yeah, it is, it's disappointing. some of the folks who retired in this past big wave of retirements, I think you'd also put in that camp Tara Erickson: Mm-hmm. Brian McClung: of moderates who really had good relationships across the aisle, wanted to get things done, right? Mary Lahammer: Yeah, yeah. And her seats are gone. Yep. Carla Nelson in Rochester, her seats Tara Erickson: Uh-huh. Mary Lahammer: gone. Warren Limmer, Maple Grove, her s his seats. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Brian McClung: Yeah. So it that it's tough. It's tough. And I think the big challenge

for, a lot of the folks that that we all work with and support now is coming in and there's, you know, a third of the legislature is brand new. you Jeff Hayden: Yeah, yeah. Tara Erickson: Yeah. Brian McClung: have just this really dramatic number, and they're we're all and all we're coming into a really difficult legislative session with the budget deficit on the horizon. It's going to be a a Tara Erickson: With so many newbies, Brian. Yep. Brian McClung: Difficult session, right? And so you're educating all of these new lawmakers. You're reconnecting with the people that you know. There's a whole bunch of issues on the table. Everybody's got all these new ideas that they were campaigning about and talking about. And they're just gonna run into this brick wall of it's hard to Jeff Hayden: Yeah, they're Brian McClung: just have a bunch of new stuff when you're trying to balance a budget and deal with basics. Mary Lahammer: Yeah, good Jeff Hayden: Guys, you how this Mary Lahammer: job in that. Jeff Hayden: goes. They're they're gonna come in, they're gonna have all the stuff, pop and circumstance, and then they're gonna get their committees and they're gonna put a book on, they're gonna set a book about five of them, four of them on the table, and they're gonna say, This is the budget. And they're gonna start to send they're gonna do the overviews, they're gonna be like blah blah blah, and here's what happens and here's what we did, and you're gonna start going through that budget book, not knowing that that's only change items, that's not even the whole budget. They're gonna they're gonna look up one day and they're gonna say, and if you're a really good chair, well let me say this if you're a seasoned chair, you start running people into the evening a little bit, right? So that that that that starts to get them because they need to know these issues, they need to start to kind of figure this out, and then people like us need to help. Them but the new legislators, and I don't want to, have your fun, take your victory laps, go out there, show them what's what. But the work, the work of governing is going to be very difficult, especially in a situation in which you're gonna have to be creative at best, but you may have to cut. And when I came in, Governor Pawlenty, that was the five billion dollar deficit deal. Now we won't talk about 6.2, we won't talk about how we got there, Brian, or not, but. Mary Lahammer: Incredible Hulk. Six is up to six. Incredible Hulk. Did Tara Erickson: Six point two Mary Lahammer: you write that line, Brian, by the way? Did Jeff Hayden: But that's Mary Lahammer: he come up with the incredible Hulk or did you a budget deficit? Brian McClung: no, I don't I think that was the Governor Palency himself. and I always all the good lines are his even if they were mine. So I stick with that. Mary Lahammer: Okay. No, but you're a good comms director. Well done. Yeah. Jeff Hayden: But I remember that, you know, the GMAC and we were

crying on Sunday. And I remember Ann Linchewski said to me, and I'm bushy tailed and I'm gonna do this and that. She looked at me one day late, you know, and she says, You'll be crying by the end of this session. I'm like, I'm crying, I'm not crying, you you're gonna be crying. know what I'm doing. At the end of that session, we're crying. You know what I mean? And I hope it Mary Lahammer: Yeah. Jeff Hayden: doesn't get that bad for this group, but it is going to be a world a a really big opening once they get past everything and they have to get in committees and sit down and start working through the budget and trying to figure it out. And half the stuff they're going to vote on, frankly, I shouldn't say this too loud, they won't even know what it is, right? Like it's just going to work for them, right? Tara Erickson: Yeah. Well, you guys, can we pivot to leadership? obviously, after what happened, Brian, you know, both Mary and I, I'm sure you guys are hearing there's gonna be shakeup in leadership. So does Mark Johnson survive this? Does maybe somebody like Rasmussen come in to lead the Senate Republicans? What about you know, what about the House now? I'm hearing people are asking Jim Nash or Dave Baker. to potentially run to lead the House Republicans and, maybe Niska was in over his head or it was just a blue wave that they couldn't, you know, that they couldn't beat back. What do you what are you hearing? Brian McClung: Yeah, I haven't heard anything publicly. Mary Lahammer: In the two. Brian McClung: So if if folks have said anything, I haven't seen it yet. Of course, we've been mostly doing punditry interviews all day. So Tara Erickson: Sir Mary Lahammer: I don't know Brian McClung: you know, Mark Johnson is very well liked in his caucus. and he's just you know, a good solid person. So I mean, Tara Erickson: Okay. Brian McClung: my my s my inclination on his race would be that if he wanted to continue, I think he could. I don't know Tara Erickson: Okay. Brian McClung: whether or not he wants to continue. There are some next generation leaders, including Jordan Rasmussen, who I think will be a caucus leader at some point in his career, or, you know, make run for Congress or do something. right, if Tara Erickson: When Fischbach then, yeah. Brian McClung: with Congresswoman Fishbach eventually retires. But so I think there is something there. On the House side, I always felt like Harry Niska was a really good number two. And that, you know, he played that role well with Speaker Demuth But when Tara Erickson: Sure. Brian McClung: he really had to do it himself while she was running for governor, right? Like he's not really like the kind of flamboyant spokesperson type, right? Or and not that Lisa's like flamboyant, but I mean she has a little bit of that, you know, kind of Tara Erickson: She's great communicator. Brian McClung: that kind of communication style. So I guess I wouldn't be surprised to see Mary Lahammer: Yep. You need a communicator. Yeah, really competent communicator. Yep. Brian McClung: House Republicans looking for somebody who's, you know, got a little more. oomph and a little some ability to really take it to the Democrats. I mean, that's you know, remember when I worked for Senator Dick Day in the Senate Republican caucus and he took over as minority leader, like the Republican minority caucus, there wanted somebody who would be a bomb thrower and say wild stuff and just go after it. And sometimes you need somebody like that when you're in the minority. Mary Lahammer: Plus he was a lot of fun too. Despite the bombastic part, he was fun. Brian McClung: Exactly. Do you remember when we turned off the ramp meters? Tara Erickson: I still have my Dicky batch. Brian McClung: Remember the ramp lights when we were like, everybody hates sitting at these ramp meters. We're gonna turn Mary Lahammer: Peter. Brian McClung: them off. We're gonna make Mindot test it. And we got Democrat votes. The only reason that actually happened is because Democrats voted for it on the as an amendment to the transportation bill, and we got it in, and everybody acted like there was gonna be blood in the highways because we're gonna turn off the ramp meters and no one knows how to merge anymore. And it was totally fine. And so we did fun things, right? Tara Erickson: They're back though. Brian McClung: they're back on, but they changed the way they operate. So anyway, I'll spare you all the nerdy details. But it Tara Erickson: Okay. Brian McClung: was stuff like that where you could find something that's like populist and interesting and use that to get into the conversation. so I I could see something like that happening. I mean, on the Democrat side, it seems pretty clear that Zach Stevenson's gonna be speaker and Erin Murphy's gonna be the Senate majority leader. I haven't heard anything differently. And of course, when you lead your caucus to a bigger majority or to the majority, Tara Erickson: Mm-hmm. Brian McClung: then typically that's the route. I think the maybe more interesting side of that are the deputies and the committee chairs and how they balance those factions of the moderates and the progressives that we've been talking about. Tara Erickson: Yeah. Brian McClung: how do you try to keep everybody happy, but also, maintain some stability? Tara Erickson: It's true. Jeff, think about what the POCI Caucus was able to do for getting chairs, right? Yeah. Jeff Hayden: Well, yeah, yeah, that's I think that that's the intriguing question is like how do they go about that? The posse caucus really especially in the House really inserted themselves in order, you know, Re Represent Moran became a ch you know, a chair, even Cedric Frazier now can have been a county elect and county attorney elect. the other thing is that former Speaker Hortman had instituted kind of term limits over there where like, okay, if you've been a chair even if you know, for a while, two, three terms, then

you you know, Chair Liebling finally kinda moved on and and others. So are they Tara Erickson: Yeah. Jeff Hayden: right, are they gonna do that motto? Is that gonna work the same thing in the Senate? Like they're gonna like that. I mean, the Senate is like I think it's like John Marty, Scott Dibble, maybe John Hoffman and Bobby Joe Champion are like the the four like, you know, most senior and John by like twenty years or something, right? Or Tara Erickson: And Ron Latz Mary Lahammer: Right. Tara Erickson: Yeah. Jeff Hayden: And Ron and Ron Mary Lahammer: Yeah. Jeff Hayden: Lats, that's the top five people. After that, it's a precipitous drop-off, right? In terms of who are gonna be chairs and how do you line that up? Who's where where who's gonna be, Sandy's gone or s Senator Pappins is gone, who's gonna be the bonding chair? it it's it what what happens in the in the HHS? Mary Lahammer: How about that for the house? Because, you know, when you take over the house, you actually have two prominent leadership positions too. And we said Zach's a given, Jeff Hayden: That's right. Mary Lahammer: but there's a big appetite to get a woman and some diversity in that. So Jeff Hayden: That's right. That's right. Mary Lahammer: who are you hearing maybe to team up with Zach Stevenson there? Jeff Hayden: Well, that's the question. Him Tara Erickson: Okay. Jeff Hayden: and i it could be Abajay, it could be Dina Hollins right? those kind Tara Erickson: Mm. Mm-hmm. Jeff Hayden: of fit at the same token. What does Jamie Long does d do? I mean, he's been a pretty good soldier here and kind of playing that, you know, number two role, if you will. No, no, I got it, but then Mary Lahammer: Right, but it's two white dudes in diverse. I mean, let's call it out. Jeff Hayden: What's his what's what is what what does he get out of it? Like what's what's good for him? I mean, he still he still has a future. He's a good legislator, smart legislator, he's got a you know, a different style. So like how do Mary Lahammer: But isn't there a real appetite? you've heard that, right, Jeff, that there's an appetite to get a woman or a person of color in that team that white women. Jeff Hayden: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it's it's much yeah, it it's a much more diverse, caucus. I haven't kind of just laid eyes on everybody that's coming in that's new, but I just know that yeah, I I think you're right. And I think that they're ready to do so. But at the same token, people have kind of paid their dues and and they've you know, there was a lot of sacrifice that was made in the sixty seven sixty-seven deal. Mary Lahammer: Certainly. And and Beth, your chamber's getting more diverse too. There are a c at least a couple of people color. Eden Prairie is sending a person of color. Blaine sending a person color. the burbs are sending some diversity there. Am Jeff Hayden: That's right. That's right, Chris Ford. Yeah. Mary Lahammer: I missing any? Jeff Hayden: Well, yeah, no, and I said that

today in one of the many interviews we talked about, you know, you know, I tell the story all the time. My mother-in-law, my wife's mother, is from Anoka. She moved, you know, after college, came back, you know, forty years later, you know, take over her mom's house. And I remember twenty, twenty-five years ago going to Anoka and it was Lily White and everybody I'm in this biracial relationship and people are looking at me. We go there now to go to her house and it is is as diverse as South Minneapolis, right? It's Latino. And African Americans Tara Erickson: Mm. Jeff Hayden: and and African immigrants, right? Which I think led to a lot of the change that's going on in in Anoka County. So you're you're right, it is the burbs are very, very diverse these days. And they're sending people to the legislature that reflects that. So I I don't know. Mary Lahammer: Yeah. That's shocked me too. Is that one of the reasons Brad Tabke went from a fourteen vote margin to a monstrous victory? He kept saying, It's diverse out here. Jeff Hayden: Yep. Yep. And he was a fighter. Tara Erickson: Yeah, that was Operation Metro Mary Lahammer: That's wasn't that a big one? that was a huge turnaround, that that seat alone. Yeah. sorry. Yep. Tara Erickson: Search. before before we let you guys go, you know, Brian, I know you do a lot of work with the chambers, you know, Minneapolis Chamber. I think you're moderating something on Friday, right? you know, there was a great reporting. Yeah, Brian McClung: Yep. Yep. Jeff will be on the panel, by the way. Tara Erickson: Jeff is on the panel again. Jeff Hayden: Ha ha ha. Tara Erickson: Okay. on just just this last week, I think it was Star Tribune great reporting on business leaders actually giving quite a bit of money to Klobuchat and so what I was wondering is with her winning, maybe the business community hasn't lost all hope. I mean, like the whole goal was to try Brian McClung: Yeah. Tara Erickson: and get like a different, you know, change the dynamics and the relationship a little bit with the business community, obviously, from what's happened and and occurred the last. eight years. So w what do you what do you think? Brian McClung: Yeah, Amy Klobuchar has always been the Democrat that the business community has tr had a relationship with and worked with. And so they absolutely want to continue that. And I think she I think she appreciates that too. I think she wants to Tara Erickson: Yeah, I do too. Yeah. Brian McClung: be the kind of governor who can do all of these things, right? Who can help unions and labor and, you know, across the board and workers and but also communicate with. CEOs and business leaders and convince them like we're gonna make yeah, we're Tara Erickson: To invest here. Yeah. Brian McClung: gonna make Minnesota a better place to do business. So that's definitely, Mary Lahammer: priority. She's laid it out as a priority. Work with business. Yep. Brian McClung: part of her deal. And I think the business community is counting on that. What I have said to business leaders is look, governor elect Klobuchar is not gonna be able to say no to everything. So you have a democratic trifecta. Tara Erickson: Yeah. Brian McClung: And the progressives are going to be pushing and pushing and pushing. And so she is definitely already setting some guardrails out, but she's going to have to pick her battles. So the Tara Erickson: Mm-hmm. Brian McClung: idea she it's not Tim Pawlenty in the governor's office, right? It's not just a Republican who would say, forget about it. She's gonna want to work with and keep them happy. And that's her team, after all. So Tara Erickson: Yes. Brian McClung: don't think Amy Klobuchar is gonna save you on every single thing. Tara Erickson: From everything. Sure. Brian McClung: you're gonna have make your case, maybe hire a good PR firm, and you're gonna have to be there and Jeff Hayden: Yeah. Brian McClung: be part of that conversation. So what Tara Erickson: Or two. Jeff Hayden: Well, and w and with that too and w and and with that being said, Mary Lahammer: Or two. Yeah. Ericsson and Maclong. Jeff Hayden: what I what I've said to business leaders is that you guys kind of ignore Democrats almost to a to a T. I mean, with the exception of a few people, you don't talk to them, right? Like you got issues, you got things, you got matrix and data that you want to show, you got, you know, opportunities to say how you want to invest and this thing with the property tax issues and you know, all of those things, but you ignore them so you have to be able to develop a relationship. I think that there's more business democrats and more on the way, but you have to go and talk to them. And you gotta hire people if we're doing that today that have relationships with those folks. Mary Lahammer: Wow. Opportunity. Brian McClung: We are doing that. We Tara Erickson: Yeah. Jeff Hayden: That that that can have that conversation. I don't know. I'm just saying no, I just kinda be a fun. But but I but I have said this regardless Tara Erickson: No. Jeff Hayden: if it's me or anybody else, but you have to develop those relationships. And I think largely business has looked at those folks as just foreign, right? And said we don't want to talk to We don't know how to talk to them. So we just kinda heavily depend on the the people who are who are more like us that that we have a relationship with or that or that c are com that that have the same lived experience as us. And I think that they're gonna have to really be vulnerable and have those conversations with with other Democrats. Tara Erickson: Don't you think, I I just thought it was a brilliant move. I think the world of Doug Stang, you know, he's been a friend of mine for over twenty years. I'm really excited about the Minnesota Chamber hiring him as the incoming CEO. I don't know anybody that doesn't like Doug Stang. I think he can just work with everybody. Mary Lahammer: Former state representative, Republican state rep too, once upon a time. Tara Erickson: Yeah. Mary Lahammer: All of us are old enough to know that. Brian McClung: Yeah, and think about how remember how young Doug was when he got elected? he was just out of college. We were all young, but yes. Mary Lahammer: He was. We were all young though then. Tara Erickson: So I was still in college when he was elected. so it was ninety-eight. I was up in St. Cloud and we knew that this twenty-two year old, or twenty-two or twenty-three year old had just been elected from Cold Spring. And we were like, What? Mary Lahammer: Yeah. and by the way, a new youngest lawmaker is coming. Marty Seifert's son, Braxton Seifert, 21 year old, just won a Senate seat from Marshall, Minnesota. Yeah. And really ran a positive campaign. Like, Jeff Hayden: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. I've had a chance to talk to him and yeah, he's really young. Tara Erickson: Awesome. Brian McClung: He's only twenty one. Wow. Mary Lahammer: didn't do a bunch of red meat, you know, nasty stuff. He really kept it. He Brian McClung: That's great. Mary Lahammer: beat like a January 6th guy and stuff. Like, it's gonna be fun to have Braxton. He is smart as a whip and Jeff Hayden: I remember Marty was pushing those kids around in the house when we were there. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's right. That's right. Mary Lahammer: Yep. But he was an infant on Marty's shoulder on the house floor and now he is a state senator. So that's gonna be Tara Erickson: Love it. Mary Lahammer: that's a fun way to end with a little shout out to Brad and Yeah. Tara Erickson: You guys, we're gonna let you Brian McClung: All right. Tara Erickson: I can't believe were you really drinking coffee, Brian, just before we we did you really have espresso? Jeff Hayden: Yeah. Mary Lahammer: Espresso. There's a spot of spot of espresso. I've got my green tea. It's keeping me alive. Sweet. Good night, everybody. I've got two. Tara Erickson: You guys gotta go to bed pretty soon. I'm yeah. I got four hours last night. And so and this Jeff Hayden: We gotta go to bed. We gotta go to bed. Brian McClung: Maybe on Saturday. Tara Erickson: is hair from last night. I just left. Jeff Hayden: it Brian McClung: Keep Jeff Hayden: looks good. It looks Brian McClung: it going. Jeff Hayden: good. This is my hair from last night too. Okay, guys. Good to see you. Thank you. Bye bye. Brian McClung: Yeah, exactly. All right. All right, thank you. Take care. See ya. Tara Erickson: Thanks you guys so much. you guys are amazing. Thanks. Have a good night. Mary Lahammer: They do really fun. Great job. Okay guys.