תעתיק 🔗
speaker-0: Small.
speaker-1: No, I'm right. And we're smart and right. You didn't even say You
speaker-0: One day, one day.
speaker-1: didn't even say you just let me do it. We have to do it in unison. We have to do it together.
speaker-0: I like that you got your energy levels back though.
speaker-1: Yeah, do you know what, mate? I also just took some pre workout. Yeah.
speaker-0: ho ho
speaker-1: I a accidentally. Accidentally. and I did.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: Yeah. So I think I've got two hundred, two hundred milligrams of caffeine in in my body from as of fifteen minutes ago. Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: I drank I drank something that was in the fridge and not realising what it was. And so now I'm like
speaker-0: Let's go.
speaker-1: LFG baby. LFG. We're on we're live. We're on air.
speaker-0: Nice. Cool. Well, Yeah, d didn't you go to Comic Con?
speaker-1: I did go Comic Con on Friday. Yeah. Yeah, I did. It was good, man. I enjoyed it. I I've been going so very interestingly, I'm from where the the place is. No, so I'm not I was born in Comic Con. That's that's my claim to fame. no, but basically where where they have the London Comic Con now is a place called the Excel Centre in East London. And I I'm not my mum mum literally lives two streets away from it. So since they've been having Comic Con in that venue, which was right next where where I grew up, I've been going there. And don't get me wrong, Comic Con in London is nowhere near what it is in the US. And quite frankly, mate, it's very underwhelming. You basically pay like 30 quid to walk around and spend money. It's just all stalls. There was don't get me wrong, I I was very, very lucky and fortunate that my favourite game company of all time is Squaresoft. Obviously Squaresoft being Square Inix now. Yeah yeah. after the Inix merger like what twenty odd years ago. Yeah,
speaker-0: I saw the picture with the sword, by the way.
speaker-1: so so obviously I've been I've been I've all all this this whole tow is Final Fantasy related. This I've got a huge part of my body is dedicated to Final Fantasy. And obviously the the new Final Fantasy VII Revelation move games coming out, so this is the third third game in the sequence, right, compared to the original one which was you know came out in ninety four, I wanna say, ninety seven. no, it'd been ninety seven, sorry, 'cause it was 30 years. And and so obviously I was walking past and there was people queuing up to to play it and demo it. And I just saw the prop. And I I went over to the guy on the stand. I went, mate, look, do me a favour, can I just pick up the sword? And he went, It weighs 10 kilos. And I was like, No problem. And I just one arm on my back. And the funny thing is, there was people who watched me do it and they were like, He knows! He knows the pose! He's got it on his back. And I was Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I I know my ship man. You're lucky I'm not swinging it around like the I've just won a battle. So yeah, I went to Comic Con. It was good. There was the st it was it's fun because it's a community thing though, Adam, right? Like it's lots of people there expressing themselves, enjoying life, I mean dressed as c cosplay.
speaker-0: In the San Diego one and been like, I'm one year, I'm gonna do that.
speaker-1: So so this me and my me and my mate basically said we go every year and we basically said the next time we go we're gonna go to do one in the US because the there isn't the same gravitas to it. yeah in the US you'll see Robert Downey Jr. Jr. Yeah doing a talk, right? In the UK you get Critical Role did something this year, which was good 'cause Critical Role quite popular, they do a lot of D and D live stuff. They also have a show on Amazon.
speaker-0: Me me being a bit of a geek, I I had so many friends sending me pictures with critical role.
speaker-1: Yeah, I bet. I bet it it it it it's a good group, they're fun. but yeah mate, so just went, enjoyed myself, spent a bit of money on the kids, didn't see anything that I wanted personally. but it was it's you know I was there for a couple of hours, came back. There was there wasn't an actual gaming delegation, but I never know where they are. I th I always see pictures afterwards, they're in a room somewhere in the conference and one year I'll I'll probably try and sneak in to do some business, you know, but But otherwise it yeah, it a f it was a fun afternoon, mate. I was I was only I was there I got there at twelve and I left at four or something like I was there for four hours walking around.
speaker-0: Well do you know that was Friday, right? Yeah. Well, one other thing that happened on Friday, which I thought we could talk about a little bit because it's really interesting. Is like the Switch 2 got hacked.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: as I sort of started to dig into it, it was like, wow, there's like this whole community now, or has been for a while, but AI is kind of furthering what they're doing and the speed that they're moving at. So I I don't know if you heard, but it's a couple of weeks ago now, PlayStation five went and they're sort of starting I mean there's there's a few different things actually with the PS five which
speaker-1: I think the the one you're talking about though is the backwards compatibility, right? So with Playstation they they actively came out and said they weren't gonna backwardsly make it compatible for certain generations. Yeah. Which, from a business perspective, Adam, you understand the more games that you can play that you don't have to buy that you already own, the less money they make, right? It's not the interest of Playstation to sell to
speaker-0: I can understand that board meeting when's when they're sat there and go, What should we let people play their old games on their platform? And they're like, Well are they? So
speaker-1: They make money off our games. No mate, they want you to what they want to do, I don't I I bought Legend of the
Load full transcript
Dragoon, which is one of my favourite games of all time. It's it's by Square Enix. or squ or Squaresoft at the time, but it was like a nineties RPG game, you know, same same team that did Final Fantasy, but it was a f a different IP. It didn't take off, but it's something that I remember vividly and loved playing, and and like I paid, I don't know, fifteen quid for it the other day. on on my PS5 because even though I've got the the original one, I've got my PS1 collection still because it was just, you know, I'm downloading an old game because that's the way I want to play it and now I'm playing it on my PS5. But again, there's gonna be a lot of people out there like myself, like you, who have kept their gaming collection over the last thirty years and they could easily play old games if they had the ability to do that. And PlayStation never allowed that. And now someone's figured it out. Yeah. So that's where we are.
speaker-0: Genius. But somebody figured it out using AI. AI, yeah. Because it enabled everything. It's it's phenomenal. But it's not just that. So with the PS five, and I I think some of it is probably down to this this you know, Sony coming out and saying, We don't want to do physical discs anymore, or we're not gonna do physical discs anymore. So, you know, work it out. I think some of it has come around as the sort of anger and backlash over that. But Now they've started to work out ways to be able to play PS five games on PC as well. Yeah. And that is, you know, down again, down to AI being able to to help people from making this stuff work, which is just phenomenal.
speaker-1: Mate, did you s did you see the the skate versus GTA mashup that someone's built using AI? It's nuts, yeah. It's wild, wild. They've just created an entire new game. For anyone who's not seen this, skate is a very popular skateboarding game, similar to Tony Hawke's in in many ways. And then they've basically allowed it like the core gameplay of skate into a GTA landscape. So you're now just on your skateboard going around GTA environment and GTA world doing tricks and someone's made it with AI and it's incredible. I it it looks fantastic. But it's just it is mad what's going on, mate. for me
speaker-0: It's the speed that all this is moving at though, because this is this is literally in the last few weeks that this has just been moving along and it it just watching it play out is phenomenal. But yeah, it's now there's now already there's there's Astros Playroom, Astros Bot, Demon Cells, Dead Cells that are all playable as PS five games on PC, which is just nuts, and it it seems to be sort of changing daily. Like there's there's these communities are pushing so hard on this stuff at the moment, it's incredible.
speaker-1: And interestingly I just checked Nintendo stock just because I thought, well, let's have a look to see if there's any been any impact since now this has been hacked or cracked. Nintendo stock's up eight points over the last month. But so
speaker-0: Nintendo seems to be at the moment the the one they seem to have got it right at the moment. Like you see what Xbox is going through, you see what PlayStation has kind of inflicted on themselves, and it's incredible. They like
speaker-1: I'm I'm more looking forward to Ocarina of Time than GTA Six. Yeah. But I'll be honest with you, I can't wait to play Ocarina of Time. I loved that game. Loved it when I was growing up.
speaker-0: they've done they've done an incredible job and they've they're not doing the same as anyone else. They they're like they're doing Nintendo. Nintendo's always done Nintendo.
speaker-1: It's it's funny actually, I had call with a mate that I used to work with from Kuali last week and he was talking about launching a game on Switch and I was like, Don't do it. I've done it three times now. I've launched a an a non Nintendo IP, non Nintendo essential like game that n non Nintendo ish games don't do well on Switch, mate. Like even like the Witcher Free di I did did units, but Witcher Free is one of the greatest games of all time. So, you know it
speaker-0: That's that's that's selling really well on Switch right now because they've just done the update that is what is it, remastered, re re reimagined, I don't know, whatever it was. But they they that's just released and that's doing incredibly well. Cyberpunk's just gone on sale as well, which is is now incredibly well on Switch.
speaker-1: But these Adam, these are the some of the biggest games ever, if you if you've got
speaker-0: They work amazingly on Switch though. they're they it's like they've been built for Switch.
speaker-1: those g those games can s sell on Switch 'cause they'll sell on any any platform. Yeah. Right? Because they're the most iconic games of all time. But if you're a studio like myself or or my friend's company or people that are not making generational IP games, right? They're highly recognisable by audiences and they want the variety of playing them on different platforms, if you're not that that size, you're not this S class developer or S class IP, don't don't put your game on Switch because you know, it's it's it's People play get switches to play Mario Kart and Smash Brothers and Zelda. Like that's that's why you do
speaker-0: Changing a bit. I don't know. It feels like it's starting to become I what was it my my wife said to me the other day? Is it it's it's old man gaming. It's like it's it's started to turn into the amount of JRPGs and and turn based turn based tactic games is starting to become more of a a kind of old school gaming platform. Like I was gutted that the Zero Company's not come out on it. Like I I that game I've been playing putting quite some hours into on on PlayStation. And I wish it was on Switch so that I could just sit on the sofa and play it like without using the T V. Yeah
speaker-1: I know what you're saying, if if if I was playing fine fancy tactics or something, t a traditional turn based on a switch, I
think that would work. But then but then equally
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: But but mate, so I remember though but switch as a hardware isn't that great, right? Like obviously, you know, there was massive like complaints in terms of the end of the g first generation and people didn't know.
speaker-0: Switch the switch two it works. Like I I've had Steam Deck, I've had Rogue Ally, I I've been through a load of different handhelds, and for me the Switch 2 is just it works. It works. Like play
speaker-1: Like it.
speaker-0: a game and I don't have to sit trying to play with settings for like hours to try and make it work. It just works.
speaker-1: I mean I'm I'm playing D C Lego Villains on Switch Two with my son at the moment.
speaker-0: That's a great that's a great parent son game. That's that's super.
speaker-1: Yeah, same it's like it's like the the Marvel Marvel whatever two that came out a couple of years ago. We play that a lot as well. But the new the new DC Villains game is really, really fun. But look mate, going back to to to to basically the crux of this conversation and and the you know what AI is enabling, there's something else that, you know, we were just discussing before we went on air, which is I was gonna do a LinkedIn post there talking about a prototype that we had just basically completed the the UA testing stage of. So
speaker-0: This is with Turborilla, right?
speaker-1: Yeah, so exactly. So I've always been a person that believes to build in public. I feel like it's about establishing hype, it builds community. It there's there's value in people knowing a little bet a little bit about something before it comes to market, right? You don't want to just bring something out and you have no idea if people like it or not. There is value in exposure. Yep. And that's always the way I've always worked. And You know, for me it goes back to being in the early nineties and getting PlayStation magazine and getting a demo disc and playing that demo disc and then the evolution of that for me was playable ads at Luna and it like okay a playable ad is a effectively a demo of the game and if you like it you then go on to to download it and purchase or whatever.
speaker-0: Yeah, the old showware type stuff.
speaker-1: Yeah, so but so but but now but now because of the ability to copycat and how fast it is for AI to to to enable that, like I said, we if you look at the Smash games that are come to market recently, like Smash Fest, etcetera, you bring a a not even I'd say a new concept, but you bring something to market that's getting attention, then people using AI are replicating it so quickly and you can miss your shop, mate. someone could beat you to the punch, right?
speaker-0: With something that's quite inferior, but because they've got quicker at it.
speaker-1: Exactly. So so for the first time ever I've decided decided not to to do a LinkedIn post advertising it, showing what it is, because there is an air of concern that because the
game's looking good and the metrics are good, etc., that that there could be a wave of people that would want to to replicate that. Just
speaker-0: Lose it immediately.
speaker-1: Yeah, and and I have to now think about the security of the business because If if we were to showcase that and someone was to replicate it and bring it to market and we lose that that moment, we we miss our shot, then that would be because of my big math. Right? Yeah. And and I and so I've yeah, I I've decided that I'm not gonna do that. again I'm not
speaker-0: Before it would it's it's not necessarily just your big mouth. you're you're doing it to gain awareness or to to give awareness of what you're building, y what's coming through, everything else. So it's it's it's it's marketing. It's it's an element of marketing.
speaker-1: I love making games. I wanna tell people about what we're making. I wanna celebrate these moments. I wanna give the team credit, right? Like I generally love what I do. And and and so now, you know, going from building in public and and you know, being community first and and establishing kind of preliminary results through through exposure and all of that kind of stuff.
speaker-0: No, you've suddenly got to be secretive.
speaker-1: Yeah, I've got to be secret squirrel. Yeah. I don't like being secret squirrel.
speaker-0: Do you I I've seen a few others like that recently. I I think I I'm trying to remember, but I think it was Moon Spinners that was supposed to be releasing a a demo and ended up not releasing it and the CEO put something out on again on LinkedIn about the fact that they can't share stuff and what a state the the the whole industry is in now because of AI and everything else. It's it's it's a it is such an interesting conversation. Like the the The impact that it's having on this entire industry right now.
speaker-1: Yeah, because the thing is that the what I've always said is the main differentiator is creativity, right? So the way that we will succeed is by being creative. AI cannot effectively reproduce something it's not done before, right? It has to learn be based on something and learn and then it can replicate. So creativity was the arguably the thing that differentiated you from, say, someone trying to one shot or one prompt a a game, right? But if people are now just being like Okay, I can download the build. I can then compare it to maybe two or three other similar games that are in market, and then I'm using that as the source material to then create a new game, which is you know, basically a copycat plus some changes to get around the submission process. And then and again they're putting that to, you know, my team might have been in the ideation stage for two months of coming up with that idea, then it's taken Yeah, but but the thing is, don't get me wrong, we are seeing the benefits of the prototype process has increased that the speed of prototyping has increased massively now, Adam, right? what we can achieve
with less is much quicker than ever before, right? Like so we are we are reaping the benefits of that. But equally the same the same tool is allowing people to replicate what we do even quicker. And
speaker-0: The funny thing is I was I was looking at the the whole porting thing because I've seen a lot recently about switch switch games being ported to to Mac OS was one of the things that I've seen. And then the PS5 games being ported to PC. And it's quite interesting because all right, yes, that's bad, obviously. But at the same time It enables that same technology would enable smaller studios to be able to port to different platforms in such a short space of time. It's incredible.
speaker-1: Yeah, from that regard, mate, it's look, if if I was some of these bigger businesses that are basically porting businesses or QA businesses, I'm not gonna, you know, call out the the the big names here, but there's a couple of businesses that have thousands of people that do translations in QA and and and effectively like work for higher art production stuff. A lot of those companies, their valuations must be tumbling now, mate, because the fact is that you can do mo a lot of this stuff with with before their advantage was that they had manpower. Now you don't need magic power.
speaker-0: Don't need that. That's just that's an expense now.
speaker-1: Exactly. It's just OPEX being more expensive than and your business being less profitable, less a bidder. So, you know, th this is this is also something that I was talking about at the set event two weeks ago. I was like, you know, because AI has allowed us to effectively stop hiring, like they're because of the the ability to
speaker-0: Look at Barclays in the UK just announced that they're gonna release five thousand jobs because of their adoption of AI. where does this end? Seriously.
speaker-1: that's insane. even Bill Gates I think said this week, right? in twenty years, the bulk of jobs won't won't need a human. Yeah. He's saying like there's gonna there's gonna be like a cataclysmic event where unemployment's gonna be like a number we've never held, like never heard before because AI will just be able to do mostly anything except for I don't
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: know. So But but any I'm an optimist. I I'm looking at the benefits right now. That being said, I still have made this decision not to post LinkedIn about the game and show what it looks like and everything else. So so that that being said, I have I am becoming more cautious with certain things. for the first time in my career. And
speaker-0: But I think to a certain extent, they know.
speaker-1: Sorry.
speaker-0: I think you have to be to a certain extent. Like until you know the the full what these things actually fully entail, it's kind of you you have to be semi semi cautious, no?
speaker-1: For sure. And I think look if the only real defensible or or maybe the most defensible element is if you do have a proper IP, right? So if you are again Lego, for example, right? Or Sonic or even Angry Birds. Yeah. If someone tries to copycat your game and they have elements of the game which are infringing IP policy, then that's just your moat is the IP. Yeah. Right? But if you do not have that level of defensibility as some of these big, tier one IP companies, I do think that maybe Hasbro and Mattel and these companies will make more money in the future because this will become a s defensible strategy. Right? People will be like, I didn't Prime example, like Superplay, right? Superplay developed Disney Solitaire, right? Before they were just the the game existed before the Disney partnership, right? They were building it without the IP. And then they added the Disney IP. And now anyone who wanted to copycat that won't be able to 'cause Diddis Disney's lawyers will come after
speaker-0: Yeah, it puts free puts safety into it, doesn't it? Yeah. Element
speaker-1: Exactly. So the so the IP does have
speaker-0: of safety.
speaker-1: I think so. I think 'cause again if it's if it the the the IP is like legally secure, right? Whereas a match free is a match free, my friend. Yeah. You know, can't tell someone they can't copy a match free, can't cop you know, can't tell them not to copy a merge, can't tell them to stop copy a racing game. You can tell them not to use Mickey Mass. Yeah, right?
speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, completely.
speaker-1: So so I think yeah, the IP stuff might be the way forward in terms of defensibility around that. So maybe we'll see Mattel and Hasbro and those guys doing more integrations into games, more examples like Superplays, Disney, Solitaire. But who who knows, mate? We definitely have to come up with a a positive s a positive solution to the problem of the speed of copycatting to avoid people, 'cause again, imagine you spend a million dollars in R and D and then in a week Someone's like, I you I was reading a Reddit when was it earlier today and a and a guy was like he posted a demo of his game on Reddit, right? He wanted some he wanted some feedback from an audience. So he's he's a solo dev, right? So he doesn't have money to spend on UA, he doesn't have all this stuff. He's just he's a bloke who has built a game, made
speaker-0: This guy.
speaker-1: some project for a year and he posts it on Reddit, and then someone in the sub Reddit In seven days copycatted his game and he his response was, I've never felt so depressed in my life. I spent a year of my life developing this and someone utilizing AI has now created what I did, right? 'Cause it's easy to r to replicate once it's done. But the the it it is, mate. It it it really is. But food for thought, Adam. Food for thought.
speaker-0: It is, it's like thought of the week list, I like it. Well we're twenty three minutes. That's pretty good for us.
speaker-1: I we'll cut there.
speaker-0: Wonderful. Thank you very much. See ya next week.
speaker-1: Thanks everyone. Bye bye.
speaker-0: I saw the