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Friends, we are here.
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Pardon the interruption, which I love.
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And in some ways, it's a throwback to season one.
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We're here on the occasion of a new documentary about The Man, the Myth, the Legend, W.
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E.
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B.
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Du Bois' life.
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And so excited to have this conversation.
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Once again, welcoming back our friend, Judge George Turner to talk about Du Bois, to talk about his background, to talk about him as LT, La'Tonya Rease Miles, Dr.
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La'Tonya Rease Miles just said, as a relatable first -gen.
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Relatable.
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This is a word that Gen Alpha loves and thinks they invented.
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And also stay tuned because we're going to talk more.
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It relates not just to the episode with the Honorable Judge George Turner, but to ways to support Black first gen students.
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LT, I couldn't be more excited because you know, as a PhD in English and both of us focused on African American literature, we were brought up on Du Bois.
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The problem of the 20th century is the problem of the color line, on Du Bois versus Booker T.
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And in English departments, Du Bois always won.
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Tell us.
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Talk to us.
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You're just spitting bars right now, Sam.
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Bonjour, tout le monde!
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It's also the Black bougie episode.
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We're reclaiming it though.
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Listen.
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Black first-gen.
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It's in fact our heritage.
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Fresh from France.
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The honorable judge George Turner.
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Sorry.
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I just spent two weeks in France.
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It was an amazing time.
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We're so glad to have you here.
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This is perfect on the ground research for you, sir.
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And now you're back with us here in the States, in Inglewood, always up to no good.
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So glad to have you back, brother.
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Before we dive into it, friends, I thought it'd be helpful to give a little bit of context for Du Bois' educational journey, and then we're gonna talk a little bit more about approaching his work through a first-gen lens because let's be real: W.E.B.
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Du Bois would be considered a first-gen student even though there was no language.
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He absolutely would have been TRIO.
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He was Upward Bound - McNair Scholar all day.
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It's W.
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E.B.
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Du Bois!
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E AOP all the way!
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All the way.
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And then talk about why it matters - - how programs today could use this information.
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And then we'll also give you a heads up about a new resource about Black first- gens.
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But before we do that, I promised you a little bit of bio.
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So, first of all, it's important to know that Du Bois was the son of a Haitian, a white Haitian-born barber and itinerant laborer, and a Black woman who raised him in New England, in Massachusetts specifically.
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It's also important to know about mom that she raised him by herself and she was disabled.
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So keep that in the back of her mind.
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Okay, Du Bois also was the very first person in his extended family, y'all, to attend and graduate from high school.
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We're not even talking about college - - first in his extended family to attend and high school.
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He did attend a racially integrated public high school that had a college prep curriculum.
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Okay, the other thing - - this is what I learned last night, y'all.
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He actually did not go immediately to college.
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Mom was sick, and you know what the family said?
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"Stay close to home, help mom out, go to work." So he did that for a year.
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Mom passed away, and then the community, especially his home church, rallied and raised the money for him to attend Fisk University, or probably Fisk College at that time, which is a historically black college university.
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His goal was Harvard; however, Harvard was not accessible to him at that time both financially and because of the curriculum.
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So he attended Fisk University, completed a degree there, attended Harvard, applied for - -
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Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
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Talk to me.
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If we were to stop the story right there, doesn't that sound like the plot from House Party 2?
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Oh my god!
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Isn't that the exact plot from House Party 2?
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No, we not talking about Du Bois and House Party 2.
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That is Kid's story from House Party 2.
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That is Kid's story.
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Except that the mom
Load full transcript
had -- oh! Mom had died.
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That's right.
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Mom and dad had died.
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they got the church money to get him to go to college.
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That's the exact story from House Party 2.
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Can we AI Du Bois with a flat top fade?
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Listen, this is going on to my own theory, but I'm sorry, I interrupted you.
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Oh my god.
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Go ahead.
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I forgot about that.
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All right.
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Done!
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All right, so we'll we'll get deeper into this about what happened with his education at Harvard.
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But he ended up obtaining - - "ended up," I say.
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We'll come back.
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He obtained a second bachelor's degree at Harvard and then went on to earn a master's and a PhD.
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The first Black person to earn a Ph.D.
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from Harvard University.
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Okay, my friend.
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It was their honor is what he said.
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What does that mean?
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What does that mean, George?
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Well, I mean, basically his attitude . . .
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Well, I mean, his experience, his lived experience, and his attitude was that the sort of education that he got even at Fisk was a world-renowned education.
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And that basically he had the experience that many first -gen students sort of have when you're told that you are supposed to expect to get to a place, be unprepared, and be wowed by the educational rigor, and then you get there and you're like, "These guys aren't much smarter than the folks who I was doing manual labor with or the people in my public high school." They just they might have a little bit more resources, but they're certainly not smarter.
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And if we are placed on an equal plate, if the only thing we have to do is study and and write and do tests, this is gonna be unfair for everyone else.
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Well, he would have been from an under-resourced high school, right?
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He would have been an AAP student at UCLA.
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There was a bridge program.
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I bet there was a bridge program.
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100%.
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You know, they were gonna try to "help" him to survive the rigors of the - -
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Just a little bit of remedial English.
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Just a little bit.
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Yes, before we before we get to Harvard, let's talk about Fisk though.
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Let's talk about him going to Fisk, and then we'll transition from Fisk to Harvard.
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I love . . . Sorry, go on.
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I was just gonna say, right?
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So you know, one of the things we were talking about before we started, and one of the things I mentioned is that the Booker T./ Du Bois debate always dominates conversation, right?
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And it's great because teaching a beef is great, and it's good for learning, and I'm all for that, right?
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But we all love to debunk a beef, too, and part of it is needing to say these two characters are just so different.
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And the HBCU story, let alone his background as first -gen high school, all of that stuff, just disrupts that so much.
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So much.
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And the way that like Du Bois gets encapsulated in the Harvard and founding of the NAACP, Woodrow Wilson BS moment . . .
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It really crystallizes a very particular moment that again is being characterized in a way that erases and needs to erase Fisk.
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So I just want to say that.
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What if we told a different story about first -gen HBCU college students?
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Yeah, yeah.
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I mean, you know, it's funny.
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Part of the reason why I've always always kind of thought tha t Booker T.
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Washington and Du Wois . .
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why Du Bois felt so comfortable criticizing Booker T.
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Washington in the way that he did so overtly is because he was like, we are peers.
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Like I understand the decisions you're making, and you're making the wrong decisions.
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We're not different.
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I understand your hustle, it's just the wrong hustle.
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That's what Du Bois was . . .
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It was not in anger, it was disappointment.
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His criticisms were disappointment.
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And it's like, I see you, I see a hustle, but it's just not the right hustle.
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And the reason why he felt so comfortable saying that is because he was literally a peer.
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He's like, I could do that if I wanted to do that.
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We come from the same environment.
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I understand the sort of story that you'd like to tell, and I understand how the stories that you tell can support us to some extent, but we have to think more critically and more longitudinally because we are trailblazers.
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You guys said this earlier, though.
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The issue is that Booker T is up from slavery and Du Bois is not, right?
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And so that puts . . . their origins are different, but what it is we're also saying is that there are so many more similarities, in fact, right, that don't get talked about.
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And Sam, you are 100% right that in the Du Bois intellectual genealogy, Fisk becomes a footnote.
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And I was actually on the Harvard Du Bois site, and it starts with Harvard, and then you have to read on, and then you learn, oh yeah, he went to - -
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They can't start by saying we didn't accept his transfer credits! I mean, they could, and everyone knows that they would start by being like gatekeeper assholes, right?
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But still . . .
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Couldn't start with, "Oh yeah, he actually came in with a BA and was the top of his class at the other university that he graduated from.
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And instead of us accepting him into a master's program so that he could complete his research, we decided he needed to demonstrate that he could write a paper and you know, participate in a lecture and all that kind of stuff."
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Yeah, my understanding is that that was the common practice . . . that these - - what we now know of as PWIs - - did not accept . . . viewed HBCUs as lacking accreditation, right?
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And so it was a common practice for folks like Du Bois, and again, we're not talking about a lot of people, to do a whole other degree.
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And it wasn't just - - the reason why it's interesting, and the reason why Du Bois is such a trailblazer is because his lived experience was he continued to go through education and became an educator.
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But there were generations of Black folks who graduated from these HBCUs, went and applied to jobs, and said, you know, I have a bachelor's degree, and they said, from where?
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So they picked folks who were educated enough to be supervisors and managers ended up being postal workers and trash truck drivers, right?
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And so his experience was not one that was . . . It was unique in that he continued on his education, but it was relatable, it was extremely relatable because there was a whole generation of folks who were like, we know exactly what it means to get a BA from Fisk and know not just that I got a BA from Fisk or Howard or North Carolina A &T.
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And not just that but to know that you are as educated or more educated than your competitors or peers, and to be treated like you got a high school diploma.
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Let's imagine for a minute.
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Again, we want to stress the fact that this man was the first in his extended family to attend and graduate from high school and now has gone on to get all the degrees, right?
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What are your thoughts about that in terms of hidden curriculum and navigating all of that?
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I mean, I have really been trying to think on this since we came up with this because I was as guilty as the next person of sort of doing my, "Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Great men, great men stories whatever" about the beef, and instead thinking about Du Bois as someone who is really trying to intervene in the hidden curriculum of college.
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And trying to say, you know, it wasn't like just I can't believe Harvard wouldn't hire me.
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I had to go to Atlanta Clark, right?
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It's him being like, why is this the only sort of schema, right?
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I believe there could be a different way to do higher ed.
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And I'm gonna show you how, right?
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A pioneer of sociology, a pioneer of anthropology, really.
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And he's like, let me let me show you how to do research differently.
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Actually, let me show you how higher ed could be different.
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And so I think that has helped me shift, especially different versions and timelines of Du Bois because in African American studies, very much late Du Bois, who's deeply disillusioned with any kind of reform, and it's like, I'm gonna go live in Ghana and I'm done with y'all. He gets reabsorbed into this obsession with the Black radical tradition.
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That's the Du Bois we want.
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And I get that, I feel that.
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But I also really want to think about this moment where Du Bois is like, yeah, what is this journey?
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How was I funded only for like three years when they knew it was gonna take four years for me to finish my degree and I'm hanging out in Berlin in the wind? S o I really want to think about him as someone who was like, let's talk about Black student success in higher ed.
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I mean, it's funny because Du Bois, initially his attitude was, "I'm so good at what I do.
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I'm so good." It's insane to me.
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He's like - - His brain wouldn't . . .
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He couldn't wrap his mind around the idea that someone would think that he isn't as smart as they are.
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He's like, they just need to talk to me ,and they'll know immediately.
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He took his Strength Finders and he knew he knew his talents.
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He was baffled by the idea that someone would hinder him in his own . . .
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And it was not just on some, "I'm a
radical and the system owes me." It was much more like, "No, this is fascinating research." I can use your language to introduce you to a whole 'nother concept of things, and it fits within the context of the things that you all say you want, right?
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He was totally using the meritocracy argument and being like, bring it on.
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Correct.
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You want academic rigor?
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I'll show you academic rigor.
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I will outpace any of you.
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If we're just talking about reading and writing and researching, none of you all are close to me.
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And I haven't found a peer out here in these ivory towers.
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I haven't found one.
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I mean, this is just fascinating to me.
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And I often tell students to . . . remind students about the gift of not seeing something before, so you don't come into it with these preconceived ideas.
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And I imagine Du Bois, too, not having - - He doesn't have someone guiding him and coaching him through this, right?
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And like you said, Sam, like approaching, coming to these institutions, like, "Oh, is this the game?
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These the rules?
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Oh, okay!"
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I'll run the score up on y'all.
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He's running up the score. That's a really good point.
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How how do you all think colleges, universities, programs today, if they factored in Du Bois, how would that help change the curriculum, change your approach, change services if we if we had a conversation like that?
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Imagine this at orientation, y'all.
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Imagine this.
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I mean, when I think about my own experience at UCLA undergrad and the the Academic Advancement Program and the sort of non-deficit model that they had with regard to first-gen students, you don't have to prove yourself in any way.
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Be curious, be great, and that sort of put a battery in a whole generation of folks' backs.
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When I think about Du Bois, though, I think it's the idea, the notion that even though he was clearly the fruit, the actual substance, the fact that he was sort of treated like he was the rind is demonstrative of the problem with the whole the whole game, if you will.
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And I wonder if the idea that first -gen or historically underrepresented students are they need to be either fixed or they're somewhere on the outside looking in to sort of get them to be integrated into the system is kind of backwards.
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That maybe the system should be set up and the institution work when you introduce folks who are historically underrepresented, who aren't a part ohef t institution.
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Maybe the creation of the . . .
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the idea of the institution is the problem, right?
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That maybe the idea that this is a traditional student is the problem, and we need to really start thinking about how non-traditional students have always been the trailblazers.
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Because that's the definition of trailblazing, right?
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If you're doing what the institution's doing, there's no trail to be blazed.
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It's already been done.
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The road's already - - you're walking down someone else's road.
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So you have to be historically underrepresented to blaze a trail.
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You have to be a first -gen or do something that no one else in the group has done.
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You know, if you want something different, you want to do something different, you have to be different, right?
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You have to have a different perspective.
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And it's funny because like Du Bois pushed the institution in that way.
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You know, he pushed these sort of the concepts of sociology and anthropology and English in ways that . . . I mean, it was literally . . . He was being curious about things and trying new stuff, you know?
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And he the the sort of idea that.
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. . He was amongst the first public intellectual celebrities.
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You know, the documentary was really . . . It's funny because I was listening, when I watched the doc, I was like, this reminds me more like a like a rock star, like a hip-hop star.
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Tou know, he thought about things in terms of the way in which art can have an impact on the community.
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It's funny because I was like, I kind of said jokingly, but it's kind of the truth.
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He kind of had like a hip-hop trajectory.
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Like he had a rap beef, he had mixed tapes, he had classics.
00:22:56.880 --> 00:22:57.920
I mean, he really . . .
00:22:57.920 --> 00:23:13.440
He went through a period where people were like, "He's tripping." I don't know, he went through the weird artsy fartsy era, and he ended up on some like, you know, what they say, gangsters don't die, they get chubby and move to Miami?
00:23:13.440 --> 00:23:16.960
It's kind of like he ended up like that in Ghana.
00:23:16.960 --> 00:23:19.279
Like, all right, I did what I did what I did.
00:23:19.279 --> 00:23:20.400
Good luck with y'all.
00:23:20.400 --> 00:23:22.720
I'm gonna enjoy the rest of my life.
00:23:23.279 --> 00:23:26.480
It's like post
his Vegas residency, George.
00:23:26.720 --> 00:23:27.200
Correct.
00:23:27.200 --> 00:23:29.920
It is quite literally post his Vegas residency.
00:23:30.079 --> 00:23:31.359
Post his Vegas residency.
00:23:31.359 --> 00:23:33.920
So I'm gonna pick up on something.
00:23:33.920 --> 00:23:51.359
Everything you're saying is blowing my mind and also this is why universal design, which is designing not for who you think the normative is, but actually for everyone, works better.
00:23:51.359 --> 00:24:08.960
But also something that LT first - - I'm sure other folks have done it, but LT introduced me to which was citing your community and family who might have helped you in your papers, as well as the class.
00:24:08.960 --> 00:24:10.720
So you were talking about this.
00:24:10.720 --> 00:24:14.000
I mean, this is community-based research.
00:24:14.000 --> 00:24:27.279
And he's doing this work on the Philadelphia community, Black community on the US South, the Black South Southern communities, after he's been living in these spaces and going to school in these spaces.
00:24:27.279 --> 00:24:32.799
So even though he's not from these spaces, he's modeling community-based research.
00:24:32.799 --> 00:24:37.920
And of course, his research is sponsored by his community.
00:24:37.920 --> 00:24:41.039
And in other ways, that's his footnote, right?
00:24:41.039 --> 00:24:42.720
Like they put me through there.
00:24:42.720 --> 00:24:53.519
What if we introduced scholarship in general like this, not as it's outside and then some people did this, right?
00:24:53.519 --> 00:24:58.559
But actually, folks have already changed the institution.
00:24:58.559 --> 00:25:02.640
They've already blazed this trail and done community-based research.
00:25:02.640 --> 00:25:05.519
What would it mean to move through school like that?
00:25:05.519 --> 00:25:19.759
And also what would it mean to do that, not just to become bless your heart as the Southerners say, a lawyer, a doctor, the things that will that are recognizable professions to support your family?
00:25:20.079 --> 00:25:40.640
Because one of the really interesting things about the documentary is the mixed feelings of his mother's health and his mother's death, and being like it afforded him a kind of freedom from being the masculine breadwinner for his family and to be able to go and blaze this trail that he couldn't otherwise, and he knew that?
00:25:41.039 --> 00:25:43.359
And that's that's hard, right?
00:25:43.359 --> 00:25:44.640
That's a hard thing to do.
00:25:44.640 --> 00:26:01.599
And I think a lot of first -gens will identify with that but not just becoming those things, but being like, I could invest in humanistic thinking, in the arts, in etc., and I don't have to be born bourgie to do it.
00:26:01.599 --> 00:26:09.359
It doesn't have to only be second-gen black students who get to go to art school, right?
00:26:09.359 --> 00:26:13.440
Not that he went to art school, but you know what I'm saying, right?
00:26:13.440 --> 00:26:33.519
So I think that's part of what lights up his story for me and that the documentary, but even more the the occasion of this conversation, made me rethink how would I reposition Du Bois in my classes and in my work.
00:26:35.920 --> 00:26:37.279
Yeah, I'll just jump in.
00:26:37.279 --> 00:26:41.519
Two things: I'll start with the last one now because you just brought it up, Sam.
00:26:41.519 --> 00:26:47.680
Going back to the beef or going back to this contrast between him and Booker T.
00:26:47.680 --> 00:26:56.079
I would argue that Du Bois gets overly associated with elitism.
00:26:56.640 --> 00:27:04.400
And part of that is because of the whole Talented Tenth that he came up with, but also because he did not grow up in the South.
00:27:04.400 --> 00:27:06.960
He was not born into slavery.
00:27:06.960 --> 00:27:08.480
He comes from New England.
00:27:08.480 --> 00:27:13.839
So there's an authenticity debate that we just haven't said.
00:27:14.720 --> 00:27:25.440
And so he wins, especially in an English department, because of - - I don't know if it's the pedigree, partly, I guess partly the pedigree.
00:27:25.440 --> 00:27:29.200
Okay, Sam is saying 100% the pedigree.
00:27:29.839 --> 00:27:31.920
Sorry, but we love that, right?
00:27:31.920 --> 00:27:32.880
We love that.
00:27:32.880 --> 00:27:36.720
But not me personally, but you know what I mean.
00:27:36.960 --> 00:27:45.519
And I think that going back to the relatable part, that mean there's there's a segment of folks for whom that is true, as well.
00:27:45.519 --> 00:27:51.279
Let's say you went to the really good public school that had the college prep.
00:27:51.279 --> 00:27:59.440
Let's say you went to a private chool.s That doesn't take away the fact that you are first gen or non-traditional.
00:27:59.440 --> 00:28:06.799
We just have to think about how that might be showing up for you and your perspective.
00:28:06.799 --> 00:28:10.640
I also don't want to lose sight of this idea of running up the score.
00:28:10.640 --> 00:28:13.200
That's one of the big takeaways I have.
00:28:13.200 --> 00:28:23.519
So even with all this, even with l osing . . . your father never being in your life, your mom struggling, being a single parent.
00:28:23.519 --> 00:28:25.759
This is all relatable to me, right now.
00:28:25.759 --> 00:28:27.119
Sounds like my life!
00:28:27.839 --> 00:28:31.440
So like somebody that wrote, like, wait a minute, get off my get off my bumper.
00:28:32.000 --> 00:28:32.480
Exactly.
00:28:32.480 --> 00:28:34.000
Like, hold on a second.
00:28:34.319 --> 00:28:35.839
Twinsies!
00:28:35.839 --> 00:28:40.240
That you can still show up and run up the score.
00:28:40.240 --> 00:28:46.319
I want to make sure that that message gets out there as well, too.
00:28:46.319 --> 00:28:48.079
George, what are you thinking?
00:28:48.960 --> 00:29:15.759
You know, there's a couple things about Du Bois' life that - - you're right: history
tells the story of although he's from New England, that New England area, and he has all the bona fides of academia, I think that his experiences in Atlanta and his experiences with friends getting lynched.
00:29:15.759 --> 00:29:21.680
And him being down there with his family.
00:29:21.680 --> 00:29:31.759
He's like, I'm out here doing this academic thing and research, and I'm in the sticks trying to talk to people, but I'm worried about whether or not my wife and kids - -
00:29:31.759 --> 00:29:32.559
Are safe.
00:29:32.799 --> 00:29:40.720
Are safe in Atlanta, which is supposed to be this, which I thought was this haven of safety and freedom.
00:29:40.720 --> 00:29:48.640
And he's like, I gotta go home and get my rifle because if somebody comes across my lawn, then I'm going to put a hole in their head.
00:29:48.960 --> 00:29:51.519
Buck! Buck! He said Buck! Buck!
00:29:51.519 --> 00:29:53.599
He said, I'm not playing that game at all.
00:29:53.599 --> 00:29:57.279
And I'm an academic, as well, but I will bust on you.
00:29:57.279 --> 00:29:58.400
I just want to let you know that.
00:29:58.400 --> 00:30:02.000
I'm an academic with a rifle, which is FYI.
00:30:02.000 --> 00:30:06.400
Don't come on our campus, don't scare me on you, basically.
00:30:06.400 --> 00:30:26.400
And it's funny because when you think about that story of Du Bois, you realize that part of the reason why he felt so comfortable saying things that were controversial at the time.
00:30:26.400 --> 00:30:29.680
That Talented Tenth notion was controversial.
00:30:29.680 --> 00:30:35.920
He wasn't saying that from an outsider looking in.
00:30:35.920 --> 00:30:40.799
He was saying that as someone who is in the neighborhood.
00:30:40.799 --> 00:30:43.440
I am not outside at all.
00:30:43.440 --> 00:30:45.759
I'm not away from you all at all.
00:30:45.759 --> 00:30:47.200
I am outside.
00:30:47.200 --> 00:30:49.839
I am in the communities with you.
00:30:49.839 --> 00:30:57.839
If you know, it's like the whole idea like, I hear the helicopters just like everybody else.
00:30:57.839 --> 00:31:01.920
You know, whether or not my house is a little better than yours, doesn't matter.
00:31:01.920 --> 00:31:05.440
I hear the helicopters and the gunshots like everyone else, right?
00:31:05.440 --> 00:31:32.319
And part of the reason that - - part of the catch-22 he finds himself in is that because he has all the academic bona fides, he also looks at the things that are in the community that he's around and says, this amounts to the things that are happening professionally.
00:31:32.319 --> 00:31:34.160
So, what do I mean by that?
00:31:34.160 --> 00:31:42.960
We think of this as just amazing music, but in academia they call it fine art.
00:31:42.960 --> 00:31:44.799
Right?
00:31:44.799 --> 00:31:54.000
You know, we talk, we think about this as telling our stories so that we can pass them down across generations.
00:31:54.000 --> 00:32:00.400
But in academia they call it sociology and anthropology, you know?
00:32:00.400 --> 00:32:06.079
We call this having a good time at the theater.
00:32:06.079 --> 00:32:10.960
You all are calling this a play and a concert, right?
00:32:10.960 --> 00:32:36.319
And so he's literally just documenting the experiences of the community where he's from and and sort of translating it into what is considered high academia, and so it's funny because he's always in this sort of catch-22 because he's like, I'm literally the translator.
00:32:36.319 --> 00:32:42.480
I'm actually here, I'm actually with them, but I can speak y'all's language.
00:32:42.880 --> 00:32:51.759
But that also makes sense with what LT is talking about, about his difference with Booker T and not coming up from slavery, which is . . .
00:32:51.920 --> 00:32:55.920
You brought up, George, you talked about it as his curiosity, right?
00:32:55.920 --> 00:32:58.160
Which is going to Fisk.
00:32:58.160 --> 00:33:21.200
Obviously, you know, Du Bois knew enslavement was happening and knew that was happening, but actually being in and surrounded by folks who had come up from slavery and where slavery had been was this moment for him of being like, I'm gonna get curious about that.
00:33:21.200 --> 00:33:35.039
And he instead of turning it into, as the kids call it today, me search, in other ways, he was like, No, I'm gonna get curious because this is not what my story is.
00:33:35.039 --> 00:33:42.000
And I don't have to claim it as my story for it to be significant to others.
00:33:42.000 --> 00:34:04.000
And I think that's incredibly powerful as well in this moment and to think about how we're teaching students about what college is but also what research is and what it can mean and what it might mean to do it ethically, even if you're not from that particular community or experience.
00:34:07.599 --> 00:34:22.800
Anything else for programs, first gen programs, programs that are invested in Black first -gen students, you think that they could take away from this conversation?
00:34:22.800 --> 00:34:41.039
Love the idea of - - I mean, Sam, you talk about research and what it means to students, and I mean all of us resonated with this idea of like imagine an orientation . . .
00:34:41.039 --> 00:34:45.920
I mean, seriously, that's such a such an oversight.
00:34:45.920 --> 00:34:53.360
Why people aren't reading and talking about double consciousness from from the get-go, right?
00:34:53.360 --> 00:34:56.480
But I don't know if I just want to see if there's anything else that's coming to mind for you all?
00:34:57.519 --> 00:35:17.519
And that's kind of what George talked about, hat t of course you've been doing with programming around first gen forever, LT, which is speaking about these things from a non-deficit model. So significant and thinking, well, you know, if we have these stories and what we have records of are these great men.
00:35:17.519 --> 00:35:36.719
However much we might have questions about that, etc.,
like why aren't we using them to think and to be models for that, for a non-deficit model of like first -gens who changed the academy and who who ran up the score.
00:35:36.719 --> 00:35:37.519
It's what you said.
00:35:37.519 --> 00:35:46.960
And and like conscious about that, because the other thing is we want first -gens and underrepresented students to feel like they can be mediocre, too.
00:35:46.960 --> 00:35:50.480
Like you don't really have to overachieve, right?
00:35:50.480 --> 00:36:02.079
You don't have to be Du Bois, which is the danger of these kinds of stories, but to just say you've got a legacy, you've actually got a history here.
00:36:02.079 --> 00:36:12.400
It's not the constant breaking of the various ceilings, right?
00:36:12.400 --> 00:36:21.840
It's not the constant newness, but to introduce a continuity rather than just the fracture of like learning the hidden curriculum.
00:36:21.840 --> 00:36:27.440
It's like, you'll have to do that but by the way, the university has been broken before.
00:36:27.440 --> 00:36:31.679
And that's just another way to phrase what George said about trailblazing.
00:36:32.000 --> 00:36:34.159
Well, like the idea that like you're home.
00:36:34.159 --> 00:36:45.440
Believe it or not, everything that you're going through, this institution as it's created right now, it was created by folks in positions that you're in right now.
00:36:45.440 --> 00:37:04.239
Like you are home, believe it or not, as cold and as weird as it might be, and as new as it might be, and as much as people are gonna try to tell you that you have to change into something and develop into something different.
00:37:04.239 --> 00:37:08.559
Believe it or not, that these institutions were . . .
00:37:08.559 --> 00:37:11.920
You're not an outside part of the story.
00:37:11.920 --> 00:37:13.440
You are the story.
00:37:13.440 --> 00:37:17.679
And the histories of these institutions are your history.
00:37:17.679 --> 00:37:23.760
So it's the idea that like welcome home; you're just you're here to add to the legacy.
00:37:23.760 --> 00:37:27.840
Whatever your legacy is, is gonna be the legacy of these institutions.
00:37:27.840 --> 00:37:39.679
And you're not a part of - - I mean, your experience is going to be new, but you are neither the beginning nor the end of this, right?
00:37:39.679 --> 00:37:49.440
And I think that that's really important for the students because you can get the idea that the whole world is on your back now.
00:37:49.440 --> 00:37:54.320
If I don't make it, then this whole thing is gonna fall.
00:37:54.320 --> 00:38:04.320
The world is gonna fall apart, or it'll be some sort of indictment on first-gen students if I'm not successful as a first-gen student.
00:38:04.400 --> 00:38:07.920
You know, stereotype threat, like it's right there.
00:38:08.320 --> 00:38:10.400
If I don't make it, no one can make it.
00:38:10.719 --> 00:38:17.840
And when you introduce the idea, though, actually these institutions were built on these concepts by first-gen students.
00:38:17.840 --> 00:38:21.280
They've been a part of the institution from the beginning.
00:38:21.280 --> 00:38:25.280
They've been developing these institutions from the beginning.
00:38:25.280 --> 00:38:34.480
You're a part of an ongoing legacy that is going to be now, that is past, present, and future.
00:38:34.480 --> 00:38:41.440
I think that's a way of sort of - - and this is what what Du Bois was always good at - - is taking possession of things.
00:38:41.440 --> 00:38:44.639
It's like, I'm not here trying to be the institution.
00:38:44.639 --> 00:38:46.079
Institution is me.
00:38:46.079 --> 00:38:47.440
I am the institution.
00:38:47.440 --> 00:38:50.000
I don't have to . . .
00:38:50.719 --> 00:38:57.679
If we just talking about smart or we just talking about reading and writing, y'all need to be like me, not the other way around.
00:38:57.679 --> 00:39:06.159
You know, it's empowering, it's empowering and giving possession to the folks w ho are first gen students.
00:39:06.159 --> 00:39:18.880
And I think that is a way of I don't want to say ensuring success but definitely like really increasing the chances of extreme success.
00:39:18.880 --> 00:39:21.199
And you're like, you know what, I don't have to.
00:39:21.199 --> 00:39:28.800
It's not all on me, and I'm gonna do me, and through doing me, there will be success.
00:39:29.679 --> 00:39:35.760
Listen, to me, what you got me thinking is Du Bois ran up the score, so I don't have to.
00:39:35.760 --> 00:39:41.280
I can choose to, but I don't have to.
00:39:41.599 --> 00:39:44.000
Hov did that, so hopefully you didn't have to go through that. Like I made you sell drugs.
00:39:44.000 --> 00:39:53.440
No, Hov did that, so hopefully you didn't have have to go through that.
00:39:53.840 --> 00:39:54.800
Exactly.
00:39:54.800 --> 00:39:59.519
LeBron did it, so Bronny can be mediocre, and you know what?
00:39:59.519 --> 00:40:01.920
He's gonna make his millions, anyway.
00:40:03.119 --> 00:40:03.599
Exactly.
00:40:03.599 --> 00:40:06.480
He's like, listen, yeah, my dad did all of that.
00:40:06.480 --> 00:40:07.039
That's cool.
00:40:07.039 --> 00:40:11.119
And I'm gonna just come off the bench, give me a couple NBA contracts, have some fun.
00:40:11.119 --> 00:40:13.280
I'm gonna just be in the league.
00:40:13.280 --> 00:40:15.199
Ain't nothing wrong with that.
00:40:15.519 --> 00:40:19.679
And I'ma smile all the way through and be happy and well-rounded.
00:40:21.519 --> 00:40:22.320
Facts.
00:40:22.320 --> 00:40:23.920
Well, listen.
00:40:24.559 --> 00:40:37.920
One of the other reasons why we wanted you to be in what? - - This bottle episode is what we'll call it, is to let folks know that there's a new book project coming out, and you are part of that.
00:40:37.920 --> 00:40:51.440
The name of that collection of essays is Amplifying Voices of First Generation Black College Students, colon, Breaking Barriers,
because there's always gotta be a colon.
00:40:51.440 --> 00:41:07.760
I am delighted to be one of the co-editors of that along with Yolanda Wiggins, and it was a project that brings together folks from all over the U.S.
00:41:07.760 --> 00:41:13.679
talking about the Black first -generation experience throughout the pipeline.
00:41:13.679 --> 00:41:18.239
And George, you have the opening essay.
00:41:18.239 --> 00:41:20.320
Can you talk to the people?
00:41:20.320 --> 00:41:23.440
And you know, Sam knows this about me.
00:41:23.440 --> 00:41:24.880
You know that was by design.
00:41:24.880 --> 00:41:28.400
Like we're not just - - How you open sets the tone.
00:41:28.400 --> 00:41:33.039
I call it a palette cleanser, and I'll say why in a second.
00:41:33.039 --> 00:41:37.119
But talk to people about what that essay is about.
00:41:38.239 --> 00:41:46.639
So ironically, I started thinking about, during the pandemic, my story.
00:41:46.639 --> 00:41:49.280
How did I get being a public defender?
00:41:49.280 --> 00:41:52.960
I've been public defender for like 15 years, about 15 years then.
00:41:52.960 --> 00:42:09.039
And I started thinking about how I got from where I started in Inglewood, California, in the 80s, all the way to to being a being a lawyer?
00:42:09.039 --> 00:42:21.679
And I've always been fascinated, not just with my own personal experiences, because I think they are important, of course, but also with the institutions that helped to shape my experiences.
00:42:21.679 --> 00:42:40.480
So when I started writing, first, I thought of it as a much larger memoir project, but then the focus began more - - tended to be more specifically about my experiences in education because I was you know, I'm a proud nerd.
00:42:40.480 --> 00:42:48.639
And you know, when I say that, I say that with a little bit of jealousy because you know, my children are going through an era where it's cool to say that.
00:42:48.639 --> 00:43:02.079
I grew up in the era where it wasn't . . . where you know, someone reading and writing and being curious about things, and even the concept of a nerd was like, oh my God, you don't want to be called that.
00:43:02.400 --> 00:43:07.360
Have you seen the new 21 Jump Street, the Jonah Hill Channing Tatum one?
00:43:07.679 --> 00:43:08.079
Yes.
00:43:08.320 --> 00:43:10.719
It basically opens on that, right?
00:43:10.719 --> 00:43:17.280
Channing Tatum's like, "Well, you can't be like a nerd basher," and everyone's like, "It's cool to be smart."
00:43:17.599 --> 00:43:34.559
Yeah, it's quite the idea that when I was in high school, and I wanted to talk about Dragon Ball Z, I was put in a corner and told, "Why are you talking about anime?" And now you can't barely have a conversation unless you know something about anime.
00:43:34.559 --> 00:43:44.559
You know when I was in school, being obsessed with the heights, weights, and powers of the X-Men was considered completely unacceptable.
00:43:44.559 --> 00:43:49.360
Now . . . and not just that, you needed to know the baseball.
00:43:49.360 --> 00:43:52.000
Baseball cards were the things that you needed to know then.
00:43:52.000 --> 00:43:56.719
And I chose comics and basketball, which put me out in the corner someplace.
00:43:56.719 --> 00:44:00.880
And now . . . Anyway, so that- -
00:44:00.650 --> 00:44:01.760
Back to your essay.
00:44:02.480 --> 00:44:06.159
So what I talked about was sort of institutions.
00:44:06.159 --> 00:44:11.280
And you know, I grew up in an era of mass incarceration.
00:44:11.280 --> 00:44:36.960
I also grew up in an era of the end of affirmative action and the sort of impact that - - And when I say when I grew up during those eras, I mean my incoming class at UCLA was a class . . . It went . . . There were less than 100 African American men not on athletic scholarship.
00:44:36.960 --> 00:44:43.599
You know, there were literally more Black men on the sports team than there were in classes my freshman year.
00:44:43.599 --> 00:44:52.079
And this is coming from a university that was known as, at one point, it was 25% Black, 25% Latino, 25% white.
00:44:52.079 --> 00:44:59.199
Like it was it was a completely diverse institution, a public school in the middle of Los Angeles.
00:44:59.199 --> 00:45:04.800
And so I came to UCLA to fight, right?
00:45:04.800 --> 00:45:19.519
I was aware of these things, even in high school, but I came to UCLA because I wanted to hold the line and fight, but the sort of impact that fight had on me.
00:45:19.519 --> 00:45:52.719
So the article is more about my experience in my own protest, which is associated with not smiling at all, and the sort of experiences that I had, the lessons that I learned being a first-gen student at a school in the shadow of the end of affirmative action, and how there was still a need, frankly, to have the image that things were cool.
00:45:52.719 --> 00:46:08.239
And because there was that need, there was a variety of opportunities to become become the mascot, if you will, as Malcolm X talked about.
00:46:08.239 --> 00:46:22.559
So a lot of these opportunities . . . And you know, you come in as a freshman and you're like, okay, well, oh, somebody wants to do an article about me or take pictures of me, and you're very excited because you just want to be a freshman in college.
00:46:22.559 --> 00:46:30.400
And then you learn that you're being used, and then how you respond to that, right?
00:46:30.400 --> 00:46:38.320
And you know, the way I responded was with a scowl for the rest of my time at UCLA.
00:46:38.320 --> 00:46:43.360
Anytime photos were taken, you know, I was . . . I literally got my Ice Cube on.
00:46:43.360 --> 00:47:03.119
So yeah, the article, so the article is really about that experience of being and the lesson that I learned there and how that then transitioned in my professional career and things of that nature.
00:47:05.119 --> 00:47:15.760
So, Sam, George's essay is
unique in that it's the only one that could be considered like a personal narrative, right?
00:47:15.760 --> 00:47:19.519
The rest are more critical essays.
00:47:19.519 --> 00:47:34.400
But I thought it was really important to set a tone and send a message right from the start because, George, you do such a good job of contextualizing the history and not just your own history.
00:47:34.400 --> 00:47:40.719
I mean, you talk about L.A., California, you talk about your parents and Inglewood.
00:47:40.719 --> 00:47:52.239
One might be surprised that it's not as many pages as you might think, but I would argue it does set you up for a memoir.
00:47:52.239 --> 00:47:54.159
We'll talk about that offline.
00:47:56.159 --> 00:47:57.440
I'm all for that.
00:47:57.440 --> 00:48:00.639
You saw me doing my can we have that?
00:48:00.639 --> 00:48:02.719
I love this.
00:48:02.719 --> 00:48:06.800
And again, thinking about the means of production is important.
00:48:06.800 --> 00:48:29.280
And this is what thinking about what most likely many of the authors but certain subjects in the b ook have gone through and got them to that point, even if that that part of the story gets erased in your day-to-day work, as it often does for a lot of us.
00:48:29.280 --> 00:48:35.280
Not erased from our consciousness or who made us, but it's not the front line of the story.
00:48:35.280 --> 00:48:41.280
So I love that that's the hook for the book that makes a ton of sense.
00:48:41.519 --> 00:48:48.079
Yeah, it's again, it's called Amplifying Black First Generation College Students.
00:48:48.079 --> 00:49:06.800
And there's an essay in there about Black first-gen students who are Jehovah's Witnesses. There's another on being Black first-gen at an HBCU.
00:49:06.800 --> 00:49:09.280
I would argue there should have been more about that.
00:49:09.280 --> 00:49:17.119
We gotta encourage people to write these things, though, study them and research them and also tell their personal narratives.
00:49:17.119 --> 00:49:20.559
And then like I said, all the way through the pipeline.
00:49:20.559 --> 00:49:37.440
So we hope that people will buy the book, order it for their libraries, incorporate it into their graduate courses, and of course reach out to the writers themselves, invite them to speak and and all that.
00:49:37.440 --> 00:49:41.840
So hope that y'all will be sure to get a copy of it.
00:49:41.840 --> 00:49:46.480
You guys, I feel like we should do something like this every now and then.
00:49:46.480 --> 00:49:54.800
I would love to . . . As we were talking, I would love to do something like this about Steve Jobs, who also was first-gen.
00:49:54.800 --> 00:49:58.239
Okay, people don't know that.
00:49:58.239 --> 00:49:59.760
Correct.
00:49:59.760 --> 00:50:02.719
The parents who raised him did not go to college.
00:50:02.719 --> 00:50:10.000
And there's a reason why he dropped out, and it wasn't just because he was brilliant and had this idea.
00:50:10.000 -->
00:50:11.519
So I don't know.
00:50:11.519 --> 00:50:13.519
There could be some other folks.
00:50:13.519 --> 00:50:25.519
Let us know if there's some other figures out there also are first-gen, adult learners, or community college students, and you want us to foreground that.
00:50:25.519 --> 00:50:30.639
Sam, George, anything else before we close out?
00:50:30.639 --> 00:50:33.760
It's always a delight.
00:50:35.519 --> 00:50:38.880
Listen, I love having these conversations.
00:50:38.880 --> 00:50:42.000
I like to talk about this sort of stuff.
00:50:42.000 --> 00:50:51.440
It gives me the opportunity to sort of reflect on my experiences and the way in my experiences can be a benefit to other people.
00:50:51.440 --> 00:50:55.119
I love storytelling, and I love to break down stories.
00:50:55.119 --> 00:51:15.199
But you know, my thoughts Du Bois and really this documentary, the Rebel with a Cause documentary was - - and I kind of mentioned this before, Du Bois was a hundred years before, of course, but he was such a hip-hop sort of figure to me.
00:51:15.199 --> 00:51:26.239
Literally, his trajectory is a similar trajectory to a lot of our bigger hip-hop stars.
00:51:26.239 --> 00:51:33.119
Now that we have a trajectory of hip hop stars of entire careers.
00:51:33.119 --> 00:51:46.559
And I think that him sort of always - - What made him so hip-hop is that he was always doing the opposite of the crowd.
00:51:46.559 --> 00:51:50.159
If the crowd was going left, he was trying to go right.
00:51:50.159 --> 00:52:05.039
When you know when folks were saying, let's try to build, let's try to build financial institutions, he was like, let's get on something academic and political.
00:52:05.039 --> 00:52:12.880
When folks were like, okay, yeah, let's get on something academic and political, like, let's get on something revolutionary.
00:52:12.880 --> 00:52:18.320
You know, when folks was like, let's get on something revolutionary, he was like, you know what?
00:52:18.320 --> 00:52:20.480
Let's worry about our mental health.
00:52:21.920 --> 00:52:23.920
Let's just try to enjoy our lives.
00:52:23.920 --> 00:52:26.159
He was always sort of, "We off that."
00:52:26.239 --> 00:52:26.719
We off that.
00:52:26.880 --> 00:52:27.760
Yeah, we off that.
00:52:27.760 --> 00:52:30.320
He was like, Oh, y'all on that now?
00:52:30.320 --> 00:52:31.440
I was on that last time.
00:52:31.440 --> 00:52:45.039
But it's funny because even the idea of the Talented Tenth, one of the things that surprised me that I learned in college was that by the time the Souls of Black Folks was written, he had already abandoned the concept of the Talented Tenth.
00:52:45.039 --> 00:52:50.719
So, imagine like your biggest hit.
00:52:50.719 --> 00:52:53.519
Like, I don't even I don't even like that song.
00:52:53.519 --> 00:52:56.239
I don't even . . . Really, I don't like to perform it.
00:52:57.199 --> 00:53:12.559
You know this is also about the power of not just living a while, so you get to have different eras, but being able to learn things both through experience and knowledge and change your mind.
00:53:13.119 --> 00:53:13.679
Correct.
00:53:14.000 --> 00:53:25.039
That's what I wished folks would do and also afford as a scholar. Afford their subjects, right?
00:53:25.039 --> 00:53:27.199
Rather than fix them.
00:53:27.199 --> 00:53:38.800
And I also just want to say what I'm most fascinated about is actually the fact that he like quasi-forced his daughter to marry a gay poet.
00:53:38.800 --> 00:53:45.519
And I have this whole Real Housewives of the Harlem Renaissance project, and Yolanda is in there.
00:53:45.519 --> 00:53:55.360
And so I really want to . . . They talk about it a little in the documentary, which made me happy that they have this moment, but I'm just really like, what's going on there?
00:53:55.360 --> 00:54:03.599
What's going on when it comes to legacy and generations without just being all like he's a bad feminist or anything about it.
00:54:03.599 --> 00:54:05.519
I just want to be like, what's happening?
00:54:05.519 --> 00:54:07.119
What is that?
00:54:07.360 --> 00:54:08.960
What was really going on with you?
00:54:08.960 --> 00:54:11.599
He was . . .
00:54:11.599 --> 00:54:12.079
But I love it.
00:54:12.159 --> 00:54:13.519
He was an iconoclast.
00:54:13.519 --> 00:54:15.920
He was like, I'm all I'm over it, right?
00:54:15.920 --> 00:54:19.119
He was a futurist and an iconoclast.
00:54:19.119 --> 00:54:21.440
Yeah, just always on some new stuff.
00:54:21.440 --> 00:54:23.599
yeah, some contrary shit.
00:54:23.599 --> 00:54:25.360
And I like that.
00:54:25.599 --> 00:54:29.760
And to his last days, he was like, you know what?
00:54:29.760 --> 00:54:31.679
Oh, y'all doing a march on Washington?
00:54:31.679 --> 00:54:32.239
That's cool.
00:54:32.239 --> 00:54:33.280
I'm gonna be in Ghana.
00:54:33.280 --> 00:54:37.519
Good luck with that.
00:54:38.559 --> 00:55:00.320
Well, you know me, I'm always gonna bring it back to how this might inform our practitioners, our researchers, our folks who are thinking about Black first-gen experiences and giving people permission to be iconoclasts is not about coming in and just putting your head down.
00:55:00.960 --> 00:55:03.760
Be the nerd you see in the world, man.
00:55:04.719 --> 00:55:07.199
Listen . Run the score up on 'em.
00:55:07.199 --> 00:55:11.360
Run up the score!
00:55:11.360 --> 00:55:13.599
On that note, thanks, you guys.
00:55:13.599 --> 00:55:26.960
We will continue the rest of season two, where we've been focusing on sports and careers and what that has to do with first-gen experiences.
00:55:26.960 --> 00:55:34.880
So make sure make sure y'all keep listening, but also let us know, again, if there's some other figures out there that you want us to talk about.
00:55:34.880 --> 00:55:37.840
We'd be happy to. See you next time.
00:55:39.199 --> 00:55:39.599
Bye.