התמלול המלא של What Happens to Your Digital Life When You Die?

alternate contacts. 66 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:12,440 And that's really the cleanest way to do it. 67 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:16,560 And you know, if I had one message for people from this episode is get your legacy 68 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:21,120 or emergency contacts set up for your most critical accounts. 69 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:25,040 So anyway, all that to say, I started thinking about this, you know, in the last six months 70 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:26,040 or so. 71 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:32,560 And then I realized each platform like Apple and Facebook and Microsoft and Google, they 72 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:37,960 all do things a little differently when it comes to how you might enable this. 73 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:43,080 And as a lot of us in security, you know, we work to secure things, as you said, 74 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:46,400 and we don't think about what would happen to people who actually had to get into 75 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:47,560 these things. 76 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:51,200 So I started to think maybe this would be a good topic for a book, you know, to do some 77 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:55,240 research, because I think there's enough different ways to look at this and things 78 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:57,080 that could trip people up. 79 00:04:57,080 --> 00:05:00,640 And so that's what I basically started doing six months ago. 80 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:03,640 And it's been a fun project, actually. 81 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:06,200 And I've got people doing what we call beta reviews now. 82 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:08,240 And most of the feedback has been very good. 83 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:10,960 You know, I'm looking for the where, where does, where do people get tripped 84 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:11,960 up? 85 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:12,960 Where does it get confusing? 86 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:16,920 Where are the, you know, things I disagree with, you know, and Kevin hasn't 87 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:17,920 reviewed it yet. 88 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:18,920 So I don't have many of those. 89 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:21,920 So yes, that is to come. 90 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:22,920 But yeah. 91 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:27,320 I mean, it's really tough for people to spend time thinking about how the 92 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:31,200 unthinkable might happen to them, you know, in your world, things seem to 93 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:32,200 be going smoothly. 94 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:36,560 But imagine, you know, your, your spouse or partner, you know, sitting at 95 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:40,600 the kitchen table after an emergency, not knowing if or when you're ever 96 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:42,400 going to be able to access this stuff again. 97 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:44,040 Maybe they do know. 98 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:48,920 But at that point, you know, all they know is that your, your online bills get 99 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:53,040 paid somehow and you've got social media accounts where you've been updating 100 00:05:53,040 -->

00:05:55,120 people on how you're doing. 101 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:56,680 And they want to access those things. 102 00:05:56,680 --> 00:06:00,200 And if you haven't done a little bit of preparation, and it's, it's not 103 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:03,840 just about passwords, as you said earlier on, I've learned there's a 104 00:06:03,840 --> 00:06:07,360 lot of dependencies and that's kind of what evolved this idea of a 105 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:08,360 tree concept. 106 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:11,560 So, you know, I'll leave it at that and you can sort of let me know if 107 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:13,200 you've got questions about that. 108 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:18,360 Yeah, I kind of wanted for you to explain the, the framework that you kind 109 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:22,800 of talk about in the book and how obviously it relates to a tree, but 110 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:25,360 maybe can you talk a little bit about that from a. 111 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:26,360 Yeah, for sure. 112 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:30,680 So the way I started thinking about it, well, we, in order to access 113 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:32,040 anything, you need the passwords, right? 114 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:37,240 So we, and one of the things that I found when I looked at what 115 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:40,960 books had actually been written on this, almost every one of them says, 116 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:43,320 do a full inventory of all your accounts. 117 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:47,880 And I can't think of anything more daunting or demotivating and sitting 118 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:49,480 down and trying to go through that. 119 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:53,240 And I have like over a thousand accounts in, in Bitwarden right now. 120 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:54,920 So how do you decide? 121 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:57,480 And, and if somebody has to take over that, how do they know 122 00:06:57,480 --> 00:06:58,400 which ones to start with? 123 00:06:58,400 --> 00:06:58,640 Right. 124 00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:02,160 So I started by just saying, let's look at this from something 125 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:04,280 that evolves and grows kind of like a tree, right? 126 00:07:04,280 --> 00:07:07,560 You start with something very small, like the critical mass. 127 00:07:08,280 --> 00:07:10,960 I think of it in terms of, first of all, your primary email 128 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:13,280 address is probably one of the top things people are going to 129 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:16,440 need your mobile device, because all of your two factor 130 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:18,600 authentication is going to go through that. 131 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:21,280 And then if you have one, a password manager. 132 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:25,560 So those three things together will get you a long way, you 133 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:28,880 know, into finding the things that you actually need. 134 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:31,400 But that's what I would call the roots, right? 135 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:33,520 So those

are the basic things you're really going to need. 136 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:35,080 And they're not very well organized. 137 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:37,120 If somebody just looks at it from that point of 138 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:40,160 view, if they're given access, so it kind of looks like a 139 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:41,880 mess of roots, you know, tangled up everywhere. 140 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:45,640 The idea of the trunk of the tree is to make it reliable 141 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:49,160 so that you can look at where are the dependencies? 142 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:52,200 What device does this account rely on? 143 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:54,560 What two factor authentication, you know, you might 144 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:56,880 actually have more than one two factor authentication 145 00:07:56,880 --> 00:07:58,320 app on your phone and do it. 146 00:07:58,320 --> 00:07:59,200 Does anybody know that? 147 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:00,400 Right. 148 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:03,080 So there's a whole bunch of dependencies that I 149 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:05,520 discovered that could trip people up. 150 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:07,520 And so the idea of the trunk is to take, start 151 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:11,280 organizing the access, the basic access stuff to make 152 00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:12,200 it more reliable. 153 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:15,680 And then at the top, it's really, what do people need? 154 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:18,320 And what are they looking for rather than just a bunch 155 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:18,960 of passwords? 156 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:21,800 And one of the best things that I learned as I 157 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:24,080 was researching this, I talked to one of the 158 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:26,280 people I was helping, I said, if they, if they 159 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:29,200 had a, if the person who passed away had a drawer 160 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:32,080 with a little note or a books that they'd written in 161 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:33,520 there, what would you have wanted to see in it? 162 00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:35,480 And he said, that's a good question. 163 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:37,200 He says, I would like to have seen a section that 164 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:39,080 says, how I live my life. 165 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:41,720 And I thought that was really interesting because 166 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:43,600 it's like, what are your priorities? 167 00:08:43,680 --> 00:08:45,840 You know, how do you treat this particular 168 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:48,480 email account versus this social media account? 169 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:49,600 Which one's more important? 170 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:52,520 So that's kind of what the whole idea of the 171 00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:53,640 tree growing. 172 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:55,760 And it's not just the fact that there's roots 173 00:08:55,760 --> 00:08:59,320 and trunk and the leaves I call it, but the 174 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:01,960 fact that it grows and you re, you update it 175 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:04,160 every once in a while and you don't have to do it 176 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:04,640 all at once. 177 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:06,880 You start with just your critical accounts and 178 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:08,800 you get that working so that it's immediately 179 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:09,800 usable by somebody. 180 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:12,240 And that's how the tree kind of evolves. 181 00:09:14,310 --> 00:09:16,870 Mobile apps are just part of everyday life now. 182 00:09:17,190 --> 00:09:19,950 Banking, healthcare, shopping, entertainment, you 183 00:09:19,950 --> 00:09:20,390 name it. 184 00:09:20,390 --> 00:09:23,310 And with that comes a lot of trust because 185 00:09:23,310 --> 00:09:25,070 users are putting their personal data 186 00:09:25,070 --> 00:09:26,870 directly into your app. 187 00:09:27,150 --> 00:09:28,190 But here's the reality. 188 00:09:28,270 --> 00:09:30,110 Mobile apps are a growing target. 189 00:09:30,430 --> 00:09:33,630 A recent survey found that 72% of organizations 190 00:09:33,630 --> 00:09:36,470 experienced a mobile app security incident 191 00:09:36,470 --> 00:09:40,030 last year and 92% say threats are only 192 00:09:40,030 --> 00:09:42,150 increasing and the way attackers are going 193 00:09:42,150 --> 00:09:44,390 after apps is pretty sophisticated. 194 00:09:44,510 --> 00:09:46,990 They're reverse engineering them, modifying 195 00:09:46,990 --> 00:09:49,270 them and redistributing fake versions 196 00:09:49,270 --> 00:09:51,710 through phishing campaigns, side loading 197 00:09:51,790 --> 00:09:53,790 and even third party app stores. 198 00:09:54,190 --> 00:09:56,630 So from a user's perspective, everything 199 00:09:56,630 --> 00:09:58,590 can look completely legitimate. 200 00:09:58,870 --> 00:10:00,710 That's why taking a proactive approach to 201 00:10:00,710 --> 00:10:02,910 mobile app security really matters. 202 00:10:03,030 --> 00:10:04,990 You want to stay ahead of these threats, not 203 00:10:04,990 --> 00:10:07,030 react after the damage is done. 204 00:10:07,310 --> 00:10:09,150 This is where Guard Square comes in. 205 00:10:09,270 --> 00:10:11,110 They provide advanced protection for both 206 00:10:11,110 --> 00:10:13,670 Android and iOS apps, along with 207 00:10:13,670 --> 00:10:15,790 automated security testing to catch 208 00:10:15,790 --> 00:10:18,470 vulnerabilities early and real time 209 00:10:18,470 --> 00:10:20,950 threat monitoring so you can actually see 210 00:10:20,950 --> 00:10:22,150 what's happening out there. 211 00:10:22,190 --> 00:10:24,510 If your mobile app is critical to your business 212 00:10:24,630 --> 00:10:27,030 and it probably is, this is something 213 00:10:27,030 --> 00:10:28,470 worth paying attention to. 214 00:10:28,590 --> 00:10:31,270 You can learn more at GuardSquare.com. 215 00:10:31,390 --> 00:10:33,430 That's GuardSquare.com. 216 00:10:35,660 --> 00:10:37,460 I really like that from a framework 217

00:10:37,460 --> 00:10:39,300 perspective. It's just easy to understand 218 00:10:39,420 --> 00:10:40,860 and I think that's going to really 219 00:10:40,860 --> 00:10:42,460 resonate with people that read the book. 220 00:10:42,460 --> 00:10:45,580 And I think I guess one question I have 221 00:10:45,580 --> 00:10:47,780 for you is like after doing all of this 222 00:10:47,780 --> 00:10:49,300 research, and I know you're kind of 223 00:10:49,300 --> 00:10:51,260 still in the middle of the book writing 224 00:10:51,260 --> 00:10:53,700 in that, but what's one thing that 225 00:10:53,740 --> 00:10:55,940 really came to light as you were 226 00:10:55,940 --> 00:10:57,700 researching this of like or one thing 227 00:10:57,700 --> 00:10:59,500 that you would offer to listeners 228 00:10:59,500 --> 00:11:00,660 to focus on first? 229 00:11:00,660 --> 00:11:02,740 I know you mentioned mobile device, right? 230 00:11:03,460 --> 00:11:05,780 Yeah, first, I mean, first of all, 231 00:11:05,780 --> 00:11:07,300 from a practical point of view, the 232 00:11:07,300 --> 00:11:08,740 first thing you should do is set up 233 00:11:08,740 --> 00:11:10,900 those legacy contacts so that somebody 234 00:11:10,900 --> 00:11:12,660 does have access that you intend them 235 00:11:12,660 --> 00:11:14,860 to access. And it's interesting how 236 00:11:14,860 --> 00:11:17,220 they've done it in a way where 237 00:11:17,460 --> 00:11:19,140 you're not just saying this person has 238 00:11:19,140 --> 00:11:20,140 access when they want it. 239 00:11:20,140 --> 00:11:21,860 It's they have to make a request 240 00:11:22,300 --> 00:11:24,820 and you can set a time horizon on it 241 00:11:24,820 --> 00:11:26,380 so that you know that you're going 242 00:11:26,380 --> 00:11:28,860 to probably be logged into, you know, 243 00:11:28,900 --> 00:11:30,540 your password manager or something 244 00:11:30,660 --> 00:11:32,260 within the next, you know, within 245 00:11:32,260 --> 00:11:33,660 three days or four days if you're 246 00:11:33,660 --> 00:11:35,260 alive or if you're not 247 00:11:35,260 --> 00:11:36,260 incapacitated. 248 00:11:36,260 --> 00:11:37,740 And if somebody makes a request 249 00:11:37,740 --> 00:11:39,460 and you don't want them to, you can 250 00:11:39,460 --> 00:11:40,460 deny that request. 251 00:11:40,500 --> 00:11:42,580 But after a certain time horizon, if 252 00:11:42,580 --> 00:11:43,900 you don't respond, then they would 253 00:11:43,900 --> 00:11:45,100 automatically get access. 254 00:11:45,100 --> 00:11:46,500 And I think that's a cool way to 255 00:11:46,500 --> 00:11:47,020 set it up. 256 00:11:47,020 --> 00:11:49,100 OK, that they're leaving it kind 257 00:11:49,100 --> 00:11:50,100 of up to you. 258 00:11:50,940 --> 00:11:53,020 But it's not an instant access 259 00:11:53,020 --> 00:11:54,500 thing. It really depends on that 260 00:11:54,500 --> 00:11:55,620 situation where you're not 261 00:11:55,620 --> 00:11:57,100 available. The other thing I 262 00:11:57,140 --> 00:11:58,980 would say that is really 263 00:11:58,980 --> 00:12:00,220 important for people to just think 264 00:12:00,220 --> 00:12:01,740 in terms of the principles around 265 00:12:01,740 --> 00:12:03,940 this is we have this 266 00:12:04,380 --> 00:12:05,340 the curse of knowledge. 267 00:12:05,340 --> 00:12:06,100 You've heard of it, right? 268 00:12:06,100 --> 00:12:07,460 So it's hard for us to imagine 269 00:12:07,460 --> 00:12:09,220 what somebody else will think 270 00:12:09,220 --> 00:12:10,220 or or experience. 271 00:12:10,660 --> 00:12:12,460 And we think we've 272 00:12:12,460 --> 00:12:13,740 got it all organized in a way 273 00:12:13,740 --> 00:12:15,340 that everybody will be able to 274 00:12:15,340 --> 00:12:16,900 just open your password manager 275 00:12:16,900 --> 00:12:17,900 and get access to things. 276 00:12:18,300 --> 00:12:20,300 But there are sometimes when people 277 00:12:20,300 --> 00:12:21,660 don't even know account accounts 278 00:12:21,660 --> 00:12:23,460 exist. And if if it's something 279 00:12:23,460 --> 00:12:25,300 like, you know, cryptocurrency or 280 00:12:25,300 --> 00:12:27,020 even online banking, I don't 281 00:12:27,060 --> 00:12:28,900 necessarily store in my password 282 00:12:28,900 --> 00:12:30,300 manager, because I 283 00:12:31,180 --> 00:12:32,500 I don't really want that to be, 284 00:12:32,500 --> 00:12:34,220 you know, in any way vulnerable. 285 00:12:34,660 --> 00:12:36,700 And so people can't access things 286 00:12:36,700 --> 00:12:37,700 they don't know exist. 287 00:12:38,140 --> 00:12:38,980 And I think that's a really 288 00:12:38,980 --> 00:12:40,460 important principle is you have to 289 00:12:40,460 --> 00:12:41,980 be able to start by documenting 290 00:12:42,300 --> 00:12:44,260 what does exist and from the most 291 00:12:44,260 --> 00:12:45,740 important on down. 292 00:12:46,060 --> 00:12:47,580 Yeah, I can also see this, you 293 00:12:47,580 --> 00:12:49,620 know, if you or a person 294 00:12:49,620 --> 00:12:51,020 you know that might encounter 295 00:12:51,020 --> 00:12:52,140 something, you know, obviously 296 00:12:52,140 --> 00:12:53,300 we're all going to die one day. 297 00:12:53,900 --> 00:12:54,900 It's inevitable, Tom. 298 00:12:54,900 --> 00:12:56,100 You know, it is inevitable like 299 00:12:56,100 --> 00:12:57,300 death and taxes, but 300 00:12:57,620 --> 00:12:58,940 like it's a really good point you 301 00:12:58,940 --> 00:13:00,580 made about, you know, if people 302 00:13:00,580 --> 00:13:02,580 have businesses, side businesses, 303 00:13:02,580 --> 00:13:04,380 they have all these things tied to 304 00:13:04,380 --> 00:13:06,220 their email and, you know, 305 00:13:06,820 --> 00:13:08,740 the authentication piece alone. 306 00:13:09,140 --> 00:13:10,780 We don't think about that and 307 00:13:10,780 --> 00:13:12,340 prepare our loved ones 308 00:13:12,340 --> 00:13:13,820 and in that for these 309 00:13:13,820 --> 00:13:14,900

situations. 310 00:13:15,580 --> 00:13:17,380 Like I came in imagine 311 00:13:17,620 --> 00:13:19,340 like the chaos that there's 312 00:13:19,340 --> 00:13:21,260 just so many things I discovered 313 00:13:21,260 --> 00:13:22,340 that I think need to be 314 00:13:22,340 --> 00:13:23,700 documented somewhere that for 315 00:13:23,700 --> 00:13:24,980 people to learn. And I did 316 00:13:25,020 --> 00:13:26,580 create a resource page on our 317 00:13:26,580 --> 00:13:28,020 website. Before I forget, I'll 318 00:13:28,020 --> 00:13:30,020 mention security perspectives.com. 319 00:13:30,300 --> 00:13:31,340 I'll have a little banner there 320 00:13:31,340 --> 00:13:32,580 where you can get to the digital 321 00:13:32,700 --> 00:13:34,140 I call it digital legacy tools 322 00:13:34,140 --> 00:13:36,540 page. But in there, you know, 323 00:13:36,540 --> 00:13:38,420 it's all the different ways that 324 00:13:38,420 --> 00:13:40,660 some of these platforms operate 325 00:13:40,660 --> 00:13:41,860 or in terms of what you need to 326 00:13:41,860 --> 00:13:42,900 do to set things up. 327 00:13:43,140 --> 00:13:44,700 And what's really interesting I 328 00:13:44,700 --> 00:13:46,580 discovered, you know, you 329 00:13:46,580 --> 00:13:49,020 and I know that some platforms 330 00:13:49,020 --> 00:13:49,980 don't use passwords. 331 00:13:50,380 --> 00:13:51,540 You put in your email and they 332 00:13:51,540 --> 00:13:53,260 send you a magic link. 333 00:13:54,060 --> 00:13:55,780 And if somebody's looking for how 334 00:13:55,780 --> 00:13:57,460 to get into this particular 335 00:13:57,460 --> 00:13:58,980 account and they see, well, 336 00:13:58,980 --> 00:14:00,060 here's the email, but there's no 337 00:14:00,060 --> 00:14:01,380 password. Oh, my God, there's no 338 00:14:01,380 --> 00:14:02,380 password. What am I going to do? 339 00:14:02,580 --> 00:14:03,580 And they don't even try. 340 00:14:03,900 --> 00:14:05,660 So if you don't document how 341 00:14:05,660 --> 00:14:07,340 some of these things have 342 00:14:07,340 --> 00:14:09,380 unique access processes, 343 00:14:09,420 --> 00:14:11,020 it could actually be stressful 344 00:14:11,020 --> 00:14:12,340 and frustrating for people as 345 00:14:12,340 --> 00:14:13,340 well. Yeah, I'm just thinking 346 00:14:13,340 --> 00:14:14,380 of all the different ways, 347 00:14:14,380 --> 00:14:15,780 right? Like, you know, mobile 348 00:14:15,780 --> 00:14:17,300 authentication app or text 349 00:14:17,300 --> 00:14:19,060 message or magic link. 350 00:14:19,060 --> 00:14:20,980 Or I mean, it goes on and 351 00:14:20,980 --> 00:14:22,260 on and on. And then there's 352 00:14:22,260 --> 00:14:24,020 of course, you know, whether 353 00:14:24,020 --> 00:14:25,740 people store passwords in a 354 00:14:25,740 --> 00:14:28,100 password manager or not, 355 00:14:28,140 --> 00:14:29,940 right? Because like we talked 356 00:14:29,940 --> 00:14:31,140 about in the show too is, you 357 00:14:31,140 --> 00:14:32,580

know, a lot of older people 358 00:14:33,020 --> 00:14:34,300 keep, you know, passwords written 359 00:14:34,300 --> 00:14:36,100 down. Written. So where is that? 360 00:14:36,140 --> 00:14:37,860 Where is that book of passwords 361 00:14:37,860 --> 00:14:38,940 that's written down and that 362 00:14:38,940 --> 00:14:40,260 kind of thing? You can put it 363 00:14:40,260 --> 00:14:41,460 in a safe. But how many people 364 00:14:41,460 --> 00:14:42,340 do you know that actually have 365 00:14:42,340 --> 00:14:43,940 a safe? And then you need to 366 00:14:43,940 --> 00:14:45,380 code the safe and the safe that 367 00:14:45,380 --> 00:14:46,980 you buy at, you know, we're 368 00:14:46,980 --> 00:14:47,660 going to get pushed back 369 00:14:47,660 --> 00:14:49,180 because safe you buy at Staple 370 00:14:49,180 --> 00:14:50,820 or, you know, we're business 371 00:14:50,820 --> 00:14:52,700 depot, whatever, aren't 372 00:14:52,700 --> 00:14:53,700 necessarily if they're under 373 00:14:53,700 --> 00:14:54,820 two or three hundred dollars, 374 00:14:54,820 --> 00:14:56,740 they're probably not really 375 00:14:56,740 --> 00:14:58,500 security safes. They're more 376 00:14:58,500 --> 00:15:00,780 like opportunistic avoidance 377 00:15:00,940 --> 00:15:02,820 safes, right? But the idea 378 00:15:02,820 --> 00:15:04,380 that you should put stuff, your 379 00:15:04,380 --> 00:15:05,820 password notebook in a safe 380 00:15:06,260 --> 00:15:07,460 isn't necessarily that 381 00:15:07,460 --> 00:15:08,780 practical. And I'm not in the 382 00:15:08,900 --> 00:15:10,260 book, I'm not teaching people 383 00:15:10,260 --> 00:15:11,740 about security of, you know, 384 00:15:12,020 --> 00:15:12,900 all these things. I'm just 385 00:15:12,900 --> 00:15:14,540 saying this is what you may 386 00:15:14,540 --> 00:15:16,740 have. And do your best to 387 00:15:16,740 --> 00:15:18,660 try and make it a place you 388 00:15:18,660 --> 00:15:20,260 can get too easily or that 389 00:15:20,260 --> 00:15:21,260 somebody could get too easily, 390 00:15:21,260 --> 00:15:22,700 but isn't obvious for people. 391 00:15:22,980 --> 00:15:24,380 So it's a little bit of, you 392 00:15:24,380 --> 00:15:25,300 know, contradiction from a 393 00:15:25,300 --> 00:15:26,820 security point of view, but you 394 00:15:26,820 --> 00:15:28,140 have to have that tradeoff. 395 00:15:28,660 --> 00:15:29,660 Well, I love that you're doing 396 00:15:29,660 --> 00:15:31,340 this, Scott. I think this is so, 397 00:15:31,340 --> 00:15:32,900 so important. It's something 398 00:15:32,900 --> 00:15:34,900 that most of us don't even 399 00:15:34,900 --> 00:15:37,500 think about. And everyone 400 00:15:37,500 --> 00:15:38,940 is left scrambling when 401 00:15:39,060 --> 00:15:40,380 something happens to loved 402 00:15:40,380 --> 00:15:41,300 ones. It doesn't have to be 403 00:15:41,300 --> 00:15:42,580 death, either, like you said, 404 00:15:42,580 --> 00:15:43,900 like if somebody is 405 00:15:43,900 --> 00:15:45,820 incapacitated because of an 406 00:15:45,820 --> 00:15:47,180 accident or a health 407 00:15:47,180 --> 00:15:48,940 condition, or there's so 408 00:15:48,940 --> 00:15:50,940 many situations that this is, 409 00:15:50,980 --> 00:15:52,420 this is sorely needed. 410 00:15:52,420 --> 00:15:54,420 So, yeah, thank you for doing 411 00:15:54,420 --> 00:15:56,260 this. And I think, you know, 412 00:15:56,260 --> 00:15:57,500 you had a call to action too, 413 00:15:57,500 --> 00:15:59,340 right? You have got a request 414 00:15:59,340 --> 00:16:00,220 for people to help out. 415 00:16:00,260 --> 00:16:02,100 Yeah, as I haven't yet 416 00:16:02,100 --> 00:16:03,140 published the book, it'll be 417 00:16:03,140 --> 00:16:05,220 self published, but I am going 418 00:16:05,220 --> 00:16:06,700 through this process of beta 419 00:16:06,700 --> 00:16:08,180 reviewing. And I've invited 420 00:16:08,180 --> 00:16:09,980 you guys, but it's still 421 00:16:09,980 --> 00:16:11,820 open. If people go to my 422 00:16:11,820 --> 00:16:13,820 website, securityperspectives.com 423 00:16:13,820 --> 00:16:15,300 you'll see a banner or pop 424 00:16:15,300 --> 00:16:17,100 up to end the comma, put 425 00:16:17,100 --> 00:16:18,060 a link to directly to the 426 00:16:18,060 --> 00:16:20,180 page. But there is a form 427 00:16:20,180 --> 00:16:21,420 there that you can actually 428 00:16:21,420 --> 00:16:23,420 volunteer to, you know, do 429 00:16:23,420 --> 00:16:24,900 a review of the manuscript as 430 00:16:24,900 --> 00:16:26,660 it is right now and or sign up 431 00:16:26,660 --> 00:16:28,700 for a discounted pre-release 432 00:16:28,700 --> 00:16:30,740 copy that I'll probably issue 433 00:16:30,740 --> 00:16:31,700 in the next month or two. 434 00:16:31,860 --> 00:16:33,060 Awesome. I can ask a question 435 00:16:33,060 --> 00:16:35,580 that might be irrelevant or 436 00:16:35,580 --> 00:16:37,260 ridiculous, or may even be 437 00:16:37,260 --> 00:16:38,260 covered in the book. I haven't 438 00:16:38,260 --> 00:16:41,940 yet reviewed. Yes, during 439 00:16:41,940 --> 00:16:43,100 yesterday, I have it about, 440 00:16:43,140 --> 00:16:46,380 OK, so this is not a new 441 00:16:46,380 --> 00:16:48,500 issue. It's a new twist on an 442 00:16:48,500 --> 00:16:50,900 issue, right? We when I was 443 00:16:50,900 --> 00:16:52,260 growing up, there was always 444 00:16:52,900 --> 00:16:54,580 stories and books about the 445 00:16:54,580 --> 00:16:55,620 idea that, you know, somebody 446 00:16:55,620 --> 00:16:56,940 died and then they found out 447 00:16:56,940 --> 00:16:58,260 that they had gold buried in 448 00:16:58,260 --> 00:17:00,060 the backyard. Yeah, yeah, they're 449 00:17:00,060 --> 00:17:00,860 in the backyard. Now it's 450 00:17:00,860 --> 00:17:02,700 crypto offline wallets. 451 00:17:03,180 --> 00:17:05,860 Yeah, right? You know, and 452 00:17:05,860 --> 00:17:08,300 so I'm curious if, and this 453 00:17:08,300 --> 00:17:11,140 kind of twofold, if

one, the 454 00:17:11,140 --> 00:17:13,420 variety of privacy laws 455 00:17:13,460 --> 00:17:15,140 around the world, countries, 456 00:17:15,140 --> 00:17:18,620 whatever, have or have to be 457 00:17:18,620 --> 00:17:20,140 adapted to this idea of 458 00:17:20,140 --> 00:17:23,260 after death. I know that that 459 00:17:23,260 --> 00:17:24,380 in some of the privacy laws, 460 00:17:24,380 --> 00:17:26,580 there are rules around how the 461 00:17:26,580 --> 00:17:28,860 data a company holds is 462 00:17:28,860 --> 00:17:32,380 affected by death. But that I 463 00:17:32,380 --> 00:17:33,420 don't think they really 464 00:17:33,420 --> 00:17:37,180 address the handover. And 465 00:17:37,220 --> 00:17:39,300 in second part is, are there 466 00:17:39,340 --> 00:17:41,340 any efforts? Are you 467 00:17:41,620 --> 00:17:43,500 shareholding? You're and 468 00:17:43,500 --> 00:17:44,780 that's shareholding. That's 469 00:17:44,780 --> 00:17:47,540 a new word phrase. Are you 470 00:17:47,540 --> 00:17:49,620 championing any efforts to 471 00:17:49,620 --> 00:17:52,860 build standards like, you 472 00:17:52,860 --> 00:17:56,620 know, 800 dash dead race 473 00:17:56,620 --> 00:17:58,860 that, you know, that, that 474 00:17:58,860 --> 00:18:00,780 pushes an idea of, Hey, if I'm 475 00:18:00,780 --> 00:18:02,780 building an app, like let's 476 00:18:02,780 --> 00:18:04,020 flip this around from the 477 00:18:04,220 --> 00:18:05,460 consort side to the business 478 00:18:05,460 --> 00:18:06,700 side. Is there any effort to 479 00:18:06,700 --> 00:18:07,580 say, Okay, I'm building an 480 00:18:07,580 --> 00:18:10,220 app. Let me follow this 481 00:18:10,300 --> 00:18:14,020 standard process on legacy 482 00:18:14,020 --> 00:18:15,100 accounts or stuff. Is there 483 00:18:15,100 --> 00:18:16,980 any there actually is. I just 484 00:18:16,980 --> 00:18:18,260 found something. It was 485 00:18:18,260 --> 00:18:20,060 published about almost a year 486 00:18:20,060 --> 00:18:22,500 ago in help net security. I 487 00:18:22,500 --> 00:18:23,740 don't actually have it off the 488 00:18:23,740 --> 00:18:24,780 top of my head, but I'll 489 00:18:24,780 --> 00:18:26,260 provide it to Tom. Yeah, there 490 00:18:26,260 --> 00:18:27,980 was a paper, a couple of 491 00:18:27,980 --> 00:18:30,140 papers written by the, I 492 00:18:30,140 --> 00:18:31,740 think it's the founders or 493 00:18:31,740 --> 00:18:33,820 heads of open ID foundation. 494 00:18:34,020 --> 00:18:36,260 Does that make sense? They 495 00:18:36,260 --> 00:18:37,220 actually were doing some 496 00:18:37,220 --> 00:18:38,380 research in this area and 497 00:18:38,380 --> 00:18:39,580 wrote some papers that I've 498 00:18:39,580 --> 00:18:40,620 yet to read. I've downloaded 499 00:18:40,620 --> 00:18:41,300 them, but I haven't read 500 00:18:41,300 --> 00:18:42,380 them. But it actually tries 501 00:18:42,380 --> 00:18:43,660 to address that issue. I 502 00:18:43,700 --> 00:18:45,500 believe. So it's a great 503 00:18:45,500 --> 00:18:47,340 question. And I'm going to put 504 00:18:47,340 --> 00:18:49,100 that in my tools website at 505 00:18:49,100 --> 00:18:50,980 some point as well. But I'll 506 00:18:50,980 --> 00:18:52,100 try and get the link to 507 00:18:52,620 --> 00:18:53,980 because that article links to 508 00:18:53,980 --> 00:18:55,260 a couple of those artifacts 509 00:18:55,260 --> 00:18:57,180 that they created. So yeah, 510 00:18:57,220 --> 00:18:58,580 that makes useful for for 511 00:18:58,580 --> 00:18:59,700 people. I think for a 512 00:18:59,700 --> 00:19:01,260 security and privacy 513 00:19:01,260 --> 00:19:02,660 practitioners to understand 514 00:19:02,900 --> 00:19:03,900 what what hasn't been done 515 00:19:03,900 --> 00:19:06,060 so far where it's going. I 516 00:19:06,060 --> 00:19:07,100 know that in the US, 517 00:19:07,100 --> 00:19:09,340 there's actually a law called 518 00:19:09,340 --> 00:19:10,300 Rufata. I don't know if 519 00:19:10,300 --> 00:19:11,220 you've heard about it, but 520 00:19:11,220 --> 00:19:13,020 the revised uniform 521 00:19:13,020 --> 00:19:15,540 fiduciary access to digital 522 00:19:15,540 --> 00:19:17,180 assets act. Wow, I'm amazed 523 00:19:17,180 --> 00:19:18,060 that I remembered that. But 524 00:19:18,820 --> 00:19:20,540 impressed. Not every state 525 00:19:20,540 --> 00:19:21,820 has adopted it, but many 526 00:19:21,820 --> 00:19:23,220 have. But what it really 527 00:19:23,220 --> 00:19:25,340 does is it gives the online 528 00:19:25,340 --> 00:19:27,700 platforms a framework of 529 00:19:27,700 --> 00:19:29,580 priorities, saying if you 530 00:19:29,580 --> 00:19:31,460 have a will, it takes 531 00:19:31,460 --> 00:19:32,740 precedent over whether 532 00:19:32,780 --> 00:19:34,420 somebody gets legal access 533 00:19:34,420 --> 00:19:36,220 to your accounts. And then 534 00:19:36,220 --> 00:19:37,620 if you don't have a will, 535 00:19:37,620 --> 00:19:39,060 there's other couple of 536 00:19:39,060 --> 00:19:40,380 other layers of priority 537 00:19:40,380 --> 00:19:42,180 there. And it's really good. 538 00:19:42,180 --> 00:19:43,460 I was really happy to find 539 00:19:43,460 --> 00:19:44,660 that stuff and understand, 540 00:19:44,660 --> 00:19:46,060 you know, it's up until 541 00:19:46,060 --> 00:19:47,100 then I was just saying, well, 542 00:19:47,100 --> 00:19:48,420 the laws don't help you if 543 00:19:48,420 --> 00:19:50,340 you if just because you 544 00:19:50,340 --> 00:19:51,300 have legal access doesn't 545 00:19:51,300 --> 00:19:52,780 mean the platforms are going 546 00:19:52,780 --> 00:19:53,660 to do anything for you 547 00:19:53,660 --> 00:19:54,820 because it's not in their 548 00:19:55,020 --> 00:19:56,620 business model or interests 549 00:19:56,780 --> 00:19:59,300 necessarily to let people 550 00:19:59,300 --> 00:20:01,140 who have no personal data 551 00:20:01,140 --> 00:20:03,260 or posts or interactions for 552 00:20:03,260 --> 00:20:05,060 them to

monetize to help 553 00:20:05,060 --> 00:20:06,140 you get access to them, 554 00:20:06,140 --> 00:20:07,300 right? But now there are 555 00:20:07,300 --> 00:20:09,500 some legal precedents that 556 00:20:09,540 --> 00:20:10,180 are starting there. 557 00:20:10,380 --> 00:20:11,140 Also, thank you. 558 00:20:11,180 --> 00:20:12,500 Nice. Good to know. 559 00:20:13,420 --> 00:20:14,780 All right. Well, we will have 560 00:20:14,780 --> 00:20:15,900 links to all this in the show 561 00:20:15,900 --> 00:20:17,540 notes. So how to contact Scott 562 00:20:17,540 --> 00:20:19,660 how to sign up if you're 563 00:20:19,660 --> 00:20:20,860 interested in helping review 564 00:20:20,860 --> 00:20:22,020 the book and all the links 565 00:20:22,020 --> 00:20:23,700 that he has talked about on 566 00:20:23,700 --> 00:20:25,500 this episode. Thank you again, 567 00:20:25,500 --> 00:20:26,820 Scott, for for doing this. 568 00:20:26,820 --> 00:20:28,580 It's so sorely needed. 569 00:20:28,740 --> 00:20:30,700 One other quick note I would 570 00:20:30,700 --> 00:20:31,740 like to squeeze in and that 571 00:20:31,740 --> 00:20:34,140 is anybody here who has a 572 00:20:34,140 --> 00:20:35,900 financial advisor or an 573 00:20:35,900 --> 00:20:37,700 estate planner, it would 574 00:20:37,700 --> 00:20:39,260 be really interesting for 575 00:20:39,260 --> 00:20:40,460 you to reach out to them and 576 00:20:40,460 --> 00:20:41,900 say, is this something that 577 00:20:41,940 --> 00:20:43,020 you should be thinking about? 578 00:20:43,300 --> 00:20:44,540 And secondly, if they'd be 579 00:20:44,540 --> 00:20:45,980 interested in collaborating 580 00:20:45,980 --> 00:20:47,460 with me or getting in touch 581 00:20:47,460 --> 00:20:48,380 because I'm actually starting 582 00:20:48,380 --> 00:20:49,620 a series of panel sessions 583 00:20:49,620 --> 00:20:51,060 for advisors as well. 584 00:20:51,060 --> 00:20:52,900 So if you know of anybody 585 00:20:52,900 --> 00:20:54,620 or if you are one, feel free 586 00:20:54,620 --> 00:20:55,820 to reach out on that. 587 00:20:55,820 --> 00:20:57,700 Awesome. All right. 588 00:20:57,700 --> 00:20:58,900 Well, thank you everyone 589 00:20:58,900 --> 00:21:00,180 for listening. And until next 590 00:21:00,180 --> 00:21:02,180 time, stay safe, stay secure 591 00:21:02,180 --> 00:21:03,300 and stay private. 592 00:21:03,300 --> 00:21:04,300 Thank you for listening or 593 00:21:04,300 --> 00:21:05,860 watching. If you like this 594 00:21:05,860 --> 00:21:08,260 episode, hit subscribe, share it 595 00:21:08,260 --> 00:21:08,940 with your friends and 596 00:21:08,940 --> 00:21:10,660 colleagues or jump into our 597 00:21:10,660 --> 00:21:12,500 community at shared security 598 00:21:12,500 --> 00:21:14,380 net slash supporter to keep 599 00:21:14,380 --> 00:21:15,700 the conversation going. 600 00:21:15,700 --> 00:21:17,140 Thanks again, and we'll see 601 00:21:17,140 --> 00:21:18,460 you next week for another 602 00:21:18,460 --> 00:21:20,420 episode of shared security.