התמלול המלא של E195 Eliza Ecclestone & Gavin Lane: Why Britain Needs to Rethink What Its Countryside Is For

and then at home, I have a diversified estate business, uh, which means I kind of slightly make it up as I go along, but you find yourself effectively running a new business that you don't know anything about every couple of years, whether that's launching a wedding business or a filming venue business or festival business, or you know, and and there's commercial properties and residential properties, and then I have a contract farm partner who luckily does all the all the farming side. 00:05:10.319 --> 00:05:18.240 Um, and we're also uh hoping to get into a higher level, what's it called, landscape recovery project. 00:05:18.560 --> 00:05:32.959 Um, and then uh as well as that, um, I'm chair of the board at Chievening Estate, which is the Foreign Secretary's uh sort of grace and favour estate, um, which takes an annoying amount of time at the moment. 00:05:33.360 --> 00:05:40.639 Um and yeah, mum, wife, yeah, pretty average at those at the moment. 00:05:41.360 --> 00:05:43.199 That's a telling sentence. 00:05:43.439 --> 00:05:46.319 So it does feel like the work hat is the primary one at the moment. 00:05:47.519 --> 00:05:58.800 I try really, I'm I'm sure we all try really hard for it, it not to be only that, but it's the it's the it's the time you spend thinking um that that can get out of control, I think. 00:05:58.959 --> 00:06:12.720 You can sort of you can manage your week very sensibly and think it all through and I can fit it all in, but it's the what's happening when you're sort of sitting thinking and worrying about things and waking up in the middle of the night. 00:06:13.120 --> 00:06:15.040 Like you you can make the calendar look like that. 00:06:15.360 --> 00:06:15.759 Exactly. 00:06:15.839 --> 00:06:18.079 A lovely No one else has to behave that way, do they? 00:06:18.160 --> 00:06:22.160 Your wife and kids or husband don't have to follow the calendar, they can go, nope, it doesn't work for me that way. 00:06:22.480 --> 00:06:22.720 Exactly. 00:06:22.879 --> 00:06:30.639 Have you have you developed any um best advice for for being present when you are at home and when you are in family things? 00:06:30.720 --> 00:06:36.000 Are there any settings or situations that you think work really well for that part of life? 00:06:37.439 --> 00:06:38.079 Wow. 00:06:38.319 --> 00:06:40.639 Um I don't know, you'd have to ask my kids. 00:06:41.279 --> 00:06:46.240 I think uh I'm my situation's probably slightly different if my kids are a bit older. 00:06:46.480 --> 00:06:47.279 How old are you too? 00:06:47.519 --> 00:06:51.199 So uh 27, 24, and uh 20. 00:06:51.439 --> 00:06:57.680 And so I've got one still in uh in tertiary education and then the other two working. 00:06:57.839 --> 00:07:02.720 Um, I think uh I hope we still get enough family time. 00:07:02.800 --> 00:07:07.680 We still try and go away the five of us together on a family holiday um once a year. 00:07:07.839 --> 00:07:10.399 Uh, we've done that for the last two or three years. 00:07:10.480 --> 00:07:12.639 Uh that is regularly cited. 00:07:12.720 --> 00:07:18.879 So as a result of doing this, I've had huge fortune to meet lots of incredibly successful people in different walks of life. 00:07:19.120 --> 00:07:26.240 The one and and where I find that they're successful in a professional career but still have a good relationship at home, I'd be like, what are the tricks? 00:07:26.399 --> 00:07:28.160 What can I learn as we go along the way? 00:07:28.319 --> 00:07:41.120 And more often than not, that at least one or two iconic family holidays is cited as the thing that and and occasionally I've got to ask the kids as well what they thought about it, and from both perspectives, that's cited as something that's really beneficial. 00:07:41.279 --> 00:07:41.839 Yeah. 00:07:42.240 --> 00:07:56.480 Yeah, I I have a sort of arrangement with my husband that's sort of passed on to my kids, which is we all just kind of get on with things, do our best, heads down, and then if you're having a wobble, you need to flag it. 00:07:57.519 --> 00:07:58.160 That's interesting. 00:07:58.399 --> 00:08:06.560 And I do find, you know, and then and then you sometimes have to sort of put aside whatever your work is in order to prioritize it. 00:08:06.639 --> 00:08:14.240 But you have to be there for the key moments and and when things aren't right and when things are really good for them. 00:08:14.639 --> 00:08:18.160 Um, but generally I think they're they're very happy getting on with their lives. 00:08:18.240 --> 00:08:23.120 I again with yeah, I mean, my children have to deal with my existential crisis every day. 00:08:23.360 --> 00:08:25.360 So uh they've got quite used to it. 00:08:25.439 --> 00:08:40.559 Um, but yeah, no, I think it's really important that there that there is a there's a lot of communication in our particular family, which uh not not not all of it is particularly informative or sensible, but we talk a lot to each other, and I think that's really, really important. 00:08:40.799 --> 00:08:41.919 I love that flagging idea. 00:08:42.000 --> 00:08:44.159 So I I've tried to do the same thing with our management team. 00:08:44.240 --> 00:08:49.759 So as we've grown from a couple of us through to a much bigger team now, and we're working in different international geographies. 00:08:50.080 --> 00:08:52.639 My thing is I will always be there when you need me. 00:08:52.799 --> 00:08:54.080 I can't see you now. 00:08:54.399 --> 00:08:56.799 If I'm in another country, I don't know if you need me. 00:08:57.039 --> 00:09:05.360 So I'm gonna need you to be really explicit about I need some help, please, and then I will drop what I'm doing to come to you, but I'm not gonna be able to guess from the other side of the world. 00:09:05.840 --> 00:09:07.519 So I think that flagging it is a really good thing. 00:09:07.840 --> 00:09:24.399 And part of that is is the stage our kids are at minus sort of 19, 21, 23, and they want to be independent,

and and so learning when to let people sort of get through their own stuff and and then flagging if you need some help. 00:09:24.639 --> 00:09:26.000 I hear those numbers and I dread it. 00:09:26.080 --> 00:09:29.919 Like so my my daughters feels like when she turned 10, she's turned 15. 00:09:30.000 --> 00:09:30.080 Yeah. 00:09:30.240 --> 00:09:37.759 She's just completely changed and um she's just so stylish and aware that it's like it's I'm not ready for that yet. 00:09:38.240 --> 00:09:40.080 No, it's it's it's just different. 00:09:40.159 --> 00:09:47.200 That you know, when they're 10 and they're they're doing things you're not sure about, you think, I've got plenty of time to sort this out. 00:09:47.919 --> 00:09:51.120 When they're 20, like, okay, this is their personality. 00:09:52.320 --> 00:09:59.679 Oh I think it'd be really helpful for people that might not have come across the CLA to describe the breadth of the work and and what you do. 00:10:00.000 --> 00:10:03.279 So we're around about 26,000 members, we're a membership organization. 00:10:03.519 --> 00:10:04.720 That's a staggering number. 00:10:04.960 --> 00:10:12.639 Um and we reckon we represent, rightly or wrongly, about 60% of the land in um England and Wales. 00:10:12.799 --> 00:10:16.320 Um we have a lot of crossover with other membership organizations. 00:10:16.559 --> 00:10:19.279 Our members will be members of other organizations. 00:10:19.519 --> 00:10:32.960 Uh, we tend to try and do our best for those uh those members, and they are predominantly land-based rural businesses, uh, both in England and Wales. 00:10:33.120 --> 00:10:39.600 And we lobby on their behalf, we offer them support, you know, how to deal with um legislation and politics. 00:10:39.759 --> 00:10:52.559 Um, and I think we we we also try as much as possible to find really good examples of you know private land management and use those as exemplars for the rest of our members. 00:10:52.720 --> 00:11:00.080 And and we do an awful lot of events and shows and various other things, and talking to people like you yourselves about what we do. 00:11:00.399 --> 00:11:05.039 And Britain and so in that membership, we've got about 250 different business types. 00:11:05.120 --> 00:11:05.279 Yeah. 00:11:05.519 --> 00:11:12.240 And it literally goes from people with, you know, a couple of acres to the larger estate businesses. 00:11:12.399 --> 00:11:20.639 Um, and all of them are just trying to do the best for their business and for that for their acres, whether it be two or a lot. 00:11:20.879 --> 00:11:27.200 Um, and so yeah, but also convening those people to learn from each other. 00:11:27.360 --> 00:11:35.360 Um, and yeah, sometimes I think it's a bit of a therapy session for everybody to come together and talk about the issues that face us all. 00:11:35.919 --> 00:11:41.600 So if our research is somewhere near 120 years old next year, I think, 1907. 00:11:41.919 --> 00:11:42.159 Yeah, yeah. 00:11:42.399 --> 00:11:43.360 Oh shit, good. 00:11:43.519 --> 00:11:45.279 So the team have done an awesome job. 00:11:45.360 --> 00:11:45.919 Thanks, team. 00:11:46.080 --> 00:11:48.080 Um, how has the organization? 00:11:48.240 --> 00:11:55.840 Obviously, you don't appreciate the whole span of it, you haven't seen it all, but in terms of the awareness you have, how has the organization changed over its duration? 00:11:56.240 --> 00:12:08.480 Well, I think Eliza touched on it in so much as you know, every couple of years our members have to rethink uh their their businesses to try and make them relevant, or not even every couple of years, probably every 20 minutes. 00:12:08.639 --> 00:12:13.919 You're constantly trying to evolve your business to make it relevant to the audience that you want to attract. 00:12:14.080 --> 00:12:22.320 And so, you know, we didn't know what paddle was five years ago, the number of members that have got paddle courts going in. 00:12:22.480 --> 00:12:27.519 We didn't know what a dog walking park was five years ago, the number of people that are doing that. 00:12:27.679 --> 00:12:38.320 I mean, we've been through wedding venues, we've been through caravan parks, we've been through, you know, our members are trying as much as possible to uh to use their land to make the best of their business. 00:12:38.639 --> 00:12:40.480 There'll be micro data centers next, won't it? 00:12:40.639 --> 00:12:41.039 Well, exactly. 00:12:41.120 --> 00:12:41.679 Yeah, exactly. 00:12:41.919 --> 00:12:43.120 Or, you know, whatever. 00:12:43.279 --> 00:12:55.519 But I think that that's where I mean, there's a difficulty with us keeping up to the pace of the way that our members are changing their businesses, but at the same time, it makes for it being quite a vibrant organization. 00:12:56.080 --> 00:12:58.080 What is the way you capture that information? 00:12:58.159 --> 00:13:06.240 So is there a route where if you have one or two members who are trying something new, is there a way they're encouraged to feed that in so you are aware of it? 00:13:06.399 --> 00:13:09.440 Like how would you find out what the next trend is that's coming? 00:13:09.759 --> 00:13:15.600 Well, we've got uh regional directors and regional teams who really know their members and they feed it in. 00:13:15.679 --> 00:13:19.039 Yeah, I mean, we we basically think we can all learn from each other. 00:13:19.279 --> 00:13:24.879 I mean, it what struck me, you know, I've really got involved mainly in the last year. 00:13:25.039 --> 00:13:38.159 Um, and I sort of thought I knew what the CLA was about, and probably the sort of image of land ownership, and uh it has been entirely different from that. 00:13:38.399 --> 00:14:19.600 And pretty much everyone who works for the CLA is incredibly forward-thinking and wants to work for our members because they see that the members are some of the most uh dynamic and forward-thinking business people that that exist in the country, and they're also

dealing with all these huge challenges which don't um which don't come uh come across for um the sort of city businesses, you know, like weather and uh infrastructure and transport and you know it people are running amazing businesses, and so as they run these dynamic businesses, the CLA has to keep up with them. 00:14:19.759 --> 00:14:23.519 And I would say we're a really forward-facing business now. 00:14:24.000 --> 00:14:34.879 It strikes me that a member could have the exact experience they want from the CLA because if they wanted to learn about a topic or a subject, there is somebody who already does it within the network. 00:14:35.039 --> 00:14:36.720 So actually it's almost what you make of it. 00:14:37.039 --> 00:14:37.600 Uh totally. 00:14:37.679 --> 00:14:39.679 I mean, I think I I've blown away. 00:14:39.759 --> 00:15:01.440 I mean, you know, it's it's not it's probably quite obvious to a lot of people, but the number of vineyards, for instance, in the southeast, and we have a lot of members that get together sort of either socially, uh, you know, casually or or within events that we put on who uh want to talk specifically about vineyards and and and viticulture and how they can do the best job they can do. 00:15:01.600 --> 00:15:03.039 Uh, I mean, that's one example. 00:15:03.120 --> 00:15:15.919 We've got people in that have got together who want to talk about wedding venues or whatever it is, but I it invariably, if a member comes to us and says, I've got this great idea, is there somebody in the organisation who's perhaps done it already? 00:15:16.159 --> 00:15:17.679 We can usually find someone. 00:15:17.919 --> 00:15:22.000 Yeah, and it feels as if the as if we're not actually competitive with each other. 00:15:22.080 --> 00:15:29.200 I mean, obviously, if your direct neighbour has a dog walking field, you shouldn't be building a dog walking field, but you'd be an idiot to do so. 00:15:29.440 --> 00:15:30.080 You would, yeah. 00:15:30.240 --> 00:15:35.120 Um, but actually, people only travel, let's say, five miles. 00:15:35.279 --> 00:15:38.159 I've got a dog walking field for a for a dog walking field. 00:15:38.320 --> 00:15:43.519 So you can talk to any member past five miles away, and you're not going to be competing with each other. 00:15:43.600 --> 00:15:44.559 And that's, you know. 00:15:44.960 --> 00:15:57.200 Although there is this train of thought that says that people are using dog walking fields as sort of dating apps and wanting to go to other dog walking fields to meet other dog walkers there. 00:15:57.440 --> 00:16:01.759 That sounds like a sponsorship opportunity for a crossover CLA dating apps. 00:16:01.840 --> 00:16:03.360 Like, is there a CLA dating app? 00:16:03.600 --> 00:16:05.600 Well, do you know what is really interesting? 00:16:05.840 --> 00:16:15.600 I have been thinking about this idea of speed dating at some of the shows, which I started off as a joke, but I'm now beginning to think that that might be

one of my legacy issues. 00:16:15.840 --> 00:16:19.600 We have a speed dating, we we run, well, we have a festival that comes to St. 00:16:19.679 --> 00:16:26.080 Clair, um, and it's it's grown from one weekend to three weekends a year, and it's always sold out. 00:16:26.159 --> 00:16:27.279 It's a brilliant festival. 00:16:27.360 --> 00:16:30.000 They have a speed dating uh element of their festival as well. 00:16:30.159 --> 00:16:33.519 I don't quite know why we've got on to speed dating, but maybe we should get off speed dating. 00:16:34.639 --> 00:16:35.600 I mean, you took us there. 00:16:35.759 --> 00:16:36.240 Yeah, sorry. 00:16:36.559 --> 00:16:37.200 We're all good. 00:16:37.440 --> 00:16:47.759 Um, you you mentioned on the way past then almost the um the ability for the organization to provide um an arm around the shoulder, a therapy session on things. 00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:56.879 It strikes me it it must feel that the cognitive load of having to be thinking about how your business needs to evolve every minute of every day must be huge on people. 00:16:57.039 --> 00:17:00.720 Can you talk a little bit about what it feels like for your members at the moment? 00:17:01.519 --> 00:17:08.559 I think nine times out of ten, they come to us with one of two things, which is tax or planning. 00:17:08.960 --> 00:17:13.680 And I think that they feel that the system's against them. 00:17:13.759 --> 00:17:24.720 You know, I mean, other organizations will talk about this, you know, the idea that the planning system as a blocker rather than as an enabler, the tax system not really being pro-business. 00:17:24.960 --> 00:17:39.839 And I think that's something that we try and address both politically from how we lobby, um, but also at you know, at local level, at even down to the granular of trying to sort out an individual member's particular problem. 00:17:39.920 --> 00:17:42.960 That's why we have the experts that we have working for us. 00:17:43.119 --> 00:17:57.680 I I think I think that's where there's there's the there's the effect of having a group of people to as to basically offload, but there's also once the offloading's happened, is what we as an organization do to help. 00:17:57.759 --> 00:18:01.839 And I think we've we've tried to address that, but I don't know what you think. 00:18:02.240 --> 00:18:21.759 Yeah, I mean, the bottom line is that we we all really want businesses to thrive, and there are just some some really irritating things that have developed over the decades, and it's not one government or another where the power is all with stoppers rather than enablers. 00:18:21.920 --> 00:18:38.640 And you know, what I see constantly is that our members have got all the ideas and they and they're prepared to take low returns, they're prepared to think a hundred years in advance, and particularly when it comes to something like nature or you know, environmental issues. 00:18:38.880 --> 00:18:40.720 You need a hundred years, really. 00:18:40.880 --> 00:18:46.319 I mean, people talk about kind of five years to establish a woodland, but in fact, it's a hundred years, you know. 00:18:46.400 --> 00:18:51.039 If you stop looking after it after five, you're not going to get very far. 00:18:51.359 --> 00:19:07.200 Um, and so it's combining that kind of nimbleness of uh of business thinking with that long-term thinking, which is where family multi-generational businesses really come into their own and and uh are as good as they can be. 00:19:07.839 --> 00:19:13.519 I don't know, I don't know anyone in any walk of life who thinks the system is serving them at the minute. 00:19:14.000 --> 00:19:15.359 It seems to be against everyone. 00:19:15.519 --> 00:19:16.000 Yeah. 00:19:16.319 --> 00:19:21.200 My my realization, so full disclosure, I unfortunately worked for the Environment Agency for nine years. 00:19:21.279 --> 00:19:22.160 It was horrific. 00:19:22.240 --> 00:19:25.599 Uh yes, Minister without the comedy, no one does anything. 00:19:25.759 --> 00:19:29.519 Um I think I miss them less than they miss me, which is great. 00:19:29.759 --> 00:19:36.400 Um, my realisation then is, um, and actually it came out it bizarrely in the UK's AI strategy. 00:19:36.640 --> 00:19:42.799 The gentleman who wrote that, whose name escapes me, said it's hard to do anything in the UK, even the good things. 00:19:43.039 --> 00:19:49.440 And I think we're in a situation now, whatever the policy that comes out, there's that many regulations that are already in place. 00:19:49.599 --> 00:19:53.519 There's already 15 reasons you can't do the thing they've just announced. 00:19:53.680 --> 00:19:55.599 So there's no one take housing, for example. 00:19:55.680 --> 00:19:57.519 We're gonna we're gonna build all these houses. 00:19:57.680 --> 00:20:00.400 Yes, but you've ruled out everywhere it's possible to build a house. 00:20:00.640 --> 00:20:03.599 The same thing's true of tree planting in Scotland, which is pertinent to us. 00:20:03.680 --> 00:20:10.240 So government says we want to plant this many million trees, but every area of land that could be planted can't be planted for another regulation. 00:20:10.559 --> 00:20:11.680 And we never take them away. 00:20:12.079 --> 00:20:20.559 And there and that there's a concept called everythingism, which is that you can't do anything unless everything is perfect. 00:20:20.720 --> 00:20:31.119 So you can't build a house unless you've thought about the bats and the and and the environment and whether it's in a beautiful place and whether it's in the greenbelt and whether it's you know got all the disabled access. 00:20:31.200 --> 00:20:43.200 And as a consequence, you pile all of those things rather than saying we really want to build houses and have bats, how can we do those two things separately really well? 00:20:43.599 --> 00:20:54.240 And obviously the way that you do that is to have a great thriving economy and get some houses built and then take the money

that flows from that to make bats as happy as humanly possible. 00:20:54.400 --> 00:20:59.599 If you try and do it all in the same square foot, basically what happens is you can't do anything. 00:20:59.839 --> 00:21:00.160 Yeah. 00:21:00.319 --> 00:21:01.680 I I heard it described the other day. 00:21:01.759 --> 00:21:08.000 Why have we got a country that wants to make successful people poorer as opposed to making poor people wealthier? 00:21:08.400 --> 00:21:18.160 There was a there was a um someone did a poll the other day, and unfortunately they said, would you rather level up or dragged down have equal? 00:21:18.240 --> 00:21:23.200 And people said we'd rather have equal, which basically meant we'd rather have it dragged down, which is just horrifying. 00:21:23.599 --> 00:21:24.720 Horrifying. 00:21:27.119 --> 00:21:28.880 She probably just shut up shop now, shouldn't you? 00:21:30.480 --> 00:21:43.920 In in in in brighter, more positive terms, um, having agreed with literally everything you just said, um, I hear you talk about your members, and I'm like, you you could be uh Silicon Valley VC talking about their startup businesses. 00:21:44.160 --> 00:21:49.519 Why is that not the feel, the narrative, the branding of the rural economy in the UK? 00:21:49.759 --> 00:21:55.200 Why is the narrative that it's slow and laboured and negative and doesn't want any change? 00:21:55.279 --> 00:21:59.680 Where you've just described 250 different businesses that are constantly reinventing and iterating. 00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:00.720 Innovating. 00:22:00.799 --> 00:22:04.640 How do we get that your image of the rural sector wider and more people to know about it? 00:22:04.960 --> 00:22:23.759 Well, the the shortest cut is to look up the CLA's rural powerhouse campaign, which is effectively saying our members are literally, I mean, the way I see it, particularly if you think about something like building, uh, we've all been desperate to build, uh, you know, a small number of houses in a large number of places. 00:22:23.920 --> 00:22:37.839 You look back at um before the Town and Country Planning Act, um, you know, our members would have just been building a few houses every now and then as needed on the edges of the bare villages, and it would have been developing very nicely. 00:22:38.079 --> 00:22:55.519 The members know exactly what needs doing, they understand the land, um, they they are enterprising entrepreneurial, but because of everything ism, and because we've put so much power in people who want to stop things, it's incredibly, incredibly difficult. 00:22:55.759 --> 00:23:10.960 So we've come up with in the in the Rural Powerhouse campaign, which I think has been live for at least five years, you know, just six, I think it's six steps, which would completely transform it and take the brakes off, and everybody could just get on with all their amazing ideas. 00:23:11.119 --> 00:23:19.359 Because in the end, we're just 26,000 businesses who've all got brilliant ideas that often you can't do. 00:23:20.160 --> 00:23:21.279 It's very difficult. 00:23:21.519 --> 00:23:22.960 You you mentioned lobbying. 00:23:23.039 --> 00:23:23.200 Yeah. 00:23:23.440 --> 00:23:30.960 How do you think about the sort of return on investment of lobbying, both financially, temporally, and emotionally? 00:23:31.359 --> 00:23:31.839 I don't know. 00:23:32.000 --> 00:23:36.000 I mean, there's expending political capital, I think is what they call it. 00:23:36.079 --> 00:23:38.559 Uh it's uh it's very difficult. 00:23:38.720 --> 00:23:42.400 We have uh obviously a lot of competing priorities. 00:23:42.640 --> 00:23:47.599 Uh, I think we there are things that we realise we have to play the long game with. 00:23:47.680 --> 00:23:57.759 Um, and then there are things which actually we think are pretty solvable quite quickly, and there's then this increasing frustration that they aren't solved very quickly. 00:23:57.839 --> 00:24:12.079 I mean, I dare mention permitted development rights on reservoirs, but um, right at the moment, you know, given where we are with water storage in this country, we can't afford to wait for the next national reservoir being built in 2040. 00:24:12.160 --> 00:24:13.759 We're gonna run out of water before then. 00:24:13.920 --> 00:24:18.319 So we need our land managers to put holes in the ground and fill them up with water. 00:24:18.480 --> 00:24:20.240 Otherwise, we're just gonna run out of it. 00:24:20.319 --> 00:24:22.000 It should be relatively easy. 00:24:22.160 --> 00:24:23.359 It's a hole in the ground. 00:24:23.440 --> 00:24:25.359 If you don't like it, you fill it back in again. 00:24:25.519 --> 00:24:33.279 But trying to get the permitted development rights uh extended towards reservoirs, and there's a lot of conversations about why that's so difficult. 00:24:33.440 --> 00:24:36.720 I gather it is it's not impossible though. 00:24:36.960 --> 00:24:40.640 That's one of the things that I you look at and you think, well, that should be a quick fix. 00:24:40.720 --> 00:24:44.319 But there are other things that we totally understand may take us five years. 00:24:44.640 --> 00:24:47.440 I I bizarrely happen to know quite a bit about reservoirs. 00:24:47.519 --> 00:24:47.680 Right. 00:24:47.920 --> 00:24:54.319 Because um, one of the roles I had before I left the environment agency was I was responsible for the people that regulated all the reservoirs. 00:24:54.400 --> 00:24:54.559 Uh-huh. 00:24:54.720 --> 00:24:57.200 And the situation actually gets even worse. 00:24:57.519 --> 00:25:03.920 So, in order to get a reservoir signed off in any capacity, you need a reservoir panel engineer to sign it off. 00:25:04.079 --> 00:25:05.920 These people are incredibly rare. 00:25:06.079 --> 00:25:09.440 And bear in mind, I left the EA nine plus years ago. 00:25:09.599 --> 00:25:16.799 I think there were two qualified ones left in the UK at that point in time because we hadn't built any since I think

the 70s ergo. 00:25:16.960 --> 00:25:18.720 No one was being trained to do this. 00:25:18.960 --> 00:25:23.759 So we won't have the people that are needing to sign the documentation to be allowed to do it anyway. 00:25:24.160 --> 00:25:26.000 But that's we've seen that all across the board. 00:25:26.079 --> 00:25:39.039 It's a little bit like BNG, where you've got more bats than you've got ecologists, and therefore it's you know, it just makes it incredibly even if you want to go down this route, it just it's going to be delay after delay because of the timing. 00:25:39.279 --> 00:25:39.359 Yeah. 00:25:39.599 --> 00:25:39.839 Yeah. 00:25:40.000 --> 00:25:46.880 I mean, permitted development from farm reservoirs is our current, like we're just so frustrating not to get it over the line. 00:25:47.200 --> 00:25:52.799 It needs to be done because I've had it on my list of something that I think there's a huge natural capital potential for paid services. 00:25:53.200 --> 00:25:54.400 I've had that for like five years in a list. 00:25:54.720 --> 00:25:56.240 We've talked about multifunctionality. 00:25:56.319 --> 00:25:59.599 You can put solar panels on reservoirs, you can wildfire fighting. 00:25:59.920 --> 00:26:00.240 Exactly. 00:26:00.799 --> 00:26:01.680 And and flooding. 00:26:02.079 --> 00:26:03.200 So you catch the floodwater. 00:26:03.279 --> 00:26:04.799 I mean, it's it's for me it's win-win-win. 00:26:04.880 --> 00:26:14.960 You catch the floodwater, you manage the drought, and you also then don't have the water flooding across the crops when you've applied your fertiliser and then causing pollution into the river. 00:26:17.119 --> 00:26:22.640 So through my farm, 82,000 megalitres got pumped out in one day last year. 00:26:22.799 --> 00:26:26.559 And the reservoirs they're talking about are 50,000 megalitres. 00:26:27.039 --> 00:26:32.799 So you're talking about we're pumping the water out to sea anyway in lowland Norfolk. 00:26:32.880 --> 00:26:34.640 Um, uh, so why aren't we storing it? 00:26:35.119 --> 00:26:38.799 And then having abstract uh problems getting abstraction licenses six months later. 00:26:39.200 --> 00:26:43.440 This is why when I'm asked about, oh well, you say you want fewer regulations, Rich, which would you get rid of? 00:26:43.519 --> 00:26:45.039 I'm like, I honestly don't care. 00:26:45.279 --> 00:26:48.640 If you just went through it and crossed out half of them, we'd be better off. 00:26:48.960 --> 00:26:51.359 Because then we could actually figure out which are the ones that are working and aren't. 00:26:51.680 --> 00:26:55.119 People assume because I'm pro-nature and pro-environment, I want more regulation. 00:26:55.359 --> 00:26:55.759 I don't. 00:26:55.920 --> 00:26:56.720 We need a lot less. 00:26:56.799 --> 00:26:58.799 It makes it impossible to even do the right things. 00:26:58.960 --> 00:26:59.039 Yeah. 00:26:59.200 --> 00:27:01.039 One of my bugbears is national parks. 00:27:01.119 --> 00:27:02.480 People are like, oh, we need more national parks. 00:27:02.559 --> 00:27:03.680 I'm like, no, you don't. 00:27:03.839 --> 00:27:06.240 You're literally not allowed to make anything better in a national park. 00:27:06.480 --> 00:27:07.039 You have to keep it. 00:27:07.279 --> 00:27:10.160 Chief Executive of National Park is one of the hardest jobs in the world. 00:27:10.319 --> 00:27:12.960 In generate more tourism and stop anything changing. 00:27:13.119 --> 00:27:13.680 Yeah, yeah. 00:27:14.160 --> 00:27:14.400 How? 00:27:14.559 --> 00:27:15.839 How do you do both those two as well? 00:27:16.160 --> 00:27:21.039 And that stopping things changing is such a fearful position. 00:27:21.200 --> 00:27:28.079 Um, and and you know, the bottom line is the definition of stopping everything changing is stagnation. 00:27:28.960 --> 00:27:29.920 Everything has to grow. 00:27:30.240 --> 00:27:36.240 But there is a p, you know, there is a political force that says that that is, you know, that's the way to go. 00:27:36.559 --> 00:27:38.640 It's basically designate more. 00:27:38.720 --> 00:27:40.480 And particularly local political forces. 00:27:40.720 --> 00:27:56.559 And I think it's really hard because if you remove so there's no statutory purpose for economic well-being in the national park, and therefore there's no incentive for anyone to do anything economically, both from the national park staff point of view, but for those living in it. 00:27:56.640 --> 00:28:00.400 Now, that where how do you expect a community to survive without economic well-being? 00:28:00.640 --> 00:28:09.599 Well, there's not even um in the uh and uh the exact act, I I don't recall, but we went back last year and did a piece on this. 00:28:09.759 --> 00:28:17.039 The the original designation of national parks had no reference to nature or environment, yeah, it was purely public access for cities. 00:28:17.119 --> 00:28:22.480 Yeah, so you you get the national parks criticized for not doing more with nature, and they're like, it's not our job. 00:28:23.440 --> 00:28:27.519 But people assume it is because we've developed an understanding of something that that isn't the case. 00:28:27.759 --> 00:28:33.200 And I was an inventor about national parks the other day, and there's a lot of talk about thriving community. 00:28:33.359 --> 00:28:45.119 When you dig down, the aid the the population in national parks is aging so massively and the price of property is getting so high because there's been no sort of sensitive development. 00:28:45.200 --> 00:28:54.480 And I always think if you go to somewhere like the Cotswolds, you don't look at the Cotswolds and say, I wish nobody had built any houses or walls here. 00:28:54.799 --> 00:29:02.079 No, you the the whole beauty of those places is actually where nature meets man-made beauty. 00:29:02.160 --> 00:29:05.279 Um, and and we should be just kind of pushing for that. 00:29:05.680 --> 00:29:07.119 I completely agree. 00:29:07.440 -->

00:29:12.640 Um, you you mentioned the competing priorities of different landowners and different perspectives. 00:29:12.960 --> 00:29:24.880 How do you marry this need for economic improvement and development and growth with the narrative no farmers, no food, food security, everything has to be food focused? 00:29:25.039 --> 00:29:27.119 How do you balance those two things? 00:29:28.000 --> 00:29:32.319 I think the nuance that gets lost in the argument always. 00:29:32.480 --> 00:29:35.599 And I think that that's quite depressing sometimes. 00:29:35.759 --> 00:29:55.920 I mean, it it whether I mean I I look at it as tree planting, you know, you want the right tree in the right place at the right time for the right length of time, and it's the same with the same with with a with a sheep, you know, when it or any grazing animal, it needs to be, you know, the right grazing animal in the right place for the right length of time at the right time of year. 00:29:56.240 --> 00:29:59.119 You know, it's the same with all of this nature perspective. 00:29:59.279 --> 00:30:19.279 And it's and it I slightly feel that when we go into bat, there are sometimes, for what I believe to be very good reasons, but perhaps very political reasons, there are those people that view some of the things that we come out with that we want them as sort of blanket sort of uh uh priorities. 00:30:19.519 --> 00:30:24.880 And I think that's what I find so, you know, not depressing, but quite frustrating sometimes. 00:30:24.960 --> 00:30:40.319 Uh and what we, you know, with the housing requirement, we talked about small numbers of houses in lots of different different villages so that we could spread the load, so we didn't get massive housing complexes, you know, stuck in the countryside where they weren't needed or wanted. 00:30:40.480 --> 00:30:52.000 Um, but you know, I think that's what we've been trying to impress more and more, that there is nuance in this argument that we, you know, it's about scale, it's about perspective, and and it's about doing the right thing at the right time. 00:30:52.319 --> 00:30:59.839 And the people who really understand that are the are the people who've been managing the land for a long time understand it really well. 00:31:00.079 --> 00:31:07.680 I mean, if I think about my farm, there are places that absolutely we must come keep uh producing food. 00:31:07.839 --> 00:31:12.079 And there are places that, you know, every year it gets less and less productive. 00:31:12.240 --> 00:31:27.680 And we should absolutely be doing something, you know, we should probably be putting a solar array, but I'm in AOMB and greenbelt, so you know, not that anyone can see it because it's between a motorway and a train line, but you know, that's going to be harder than you can possibly imagine. 00:31:27.759 --> 00:31:32.720 So we still try and kind of get some food off it, but it's not the right place. 00:31:33.039 --> 00:31:40.480 I don't know how we've ended up with more data and more information than we've ever had, yet the ability to recognise nuance has never been harder. 00:31:40.720 --> 00:31:42.640 Everyone wants everything to be binary. 00:31:42.720 --> 00:31:48.000 So one of the so we we've got 12 different estates across the UK, 50,000, 52,000 acres. 00:31:48.240 --> 00:31:50.799 And the first question everyone goes, so what do you do with the land? 00:31:51.119 --> 00:31:55.359 It's like that's like asking me what the bottom right hand corner of my bathroom is. 00:31:56.000 --> 00:31:56.799 What are you talking about? 00:31:56.960 --> 00:31:58.720 Like it's a it's a million answers. 00:31:58.799 --> 00:32:03.039 Like, um, and but people want that simplicity on things that they don't interact with. 00:32:03.440 --> 00:32:16.880 Um, for example, the the vast majority of landscapes, so most of our portfolios in Scotland, we we have bought failing sheet farms that were hammered with an inch of their life and just didn't work economically anymore, or grouse moors that weren't viable and were in a really bad way. 00:32:17.119 --> 00:32:18.720 Otherwise, they wouldn't have been for sale. 00:32:19.279 --> 00:32:27.759 So people seem to think we're buying, and we don't touch grade one arable land, or we haven't bought any grade two yet either, on the basis of it should be farming, it should be doing the right thing. 00:32:27.920 --> 00:32:34.720 But I think people don't realize the amount of landscapes across the UK that we've historically tried to farm, not necessarily for the right economic reasons. 00:32:34.799 --> 00:32:37.599 It might just be someone's preference that they wanted to do something a certain way. 00:32:37.759 --> 00:32:39.759 And that land just shouldn't be used that way. 00:32:40.079 --> 00:32:41.599 It it should have different futures. 00:32:41.839 --> 00:32:42.319 Yeah, yeah. 00:32:42.559 --> 00:32:54.319 And I think that there is, and we, you know, going back to the multifunctionality issue as well, you know, it we tend to think of or in the public's mind, if it's being used for food, it can't be used for anything else. 00:32:54.720 --> 00:32:55.279 Yes, that's right. 00:32:55.519 --> 00:33:04.559 We've got, I mean, I've got plenty of fields where I've got not a lot of in-field options now of uh on SFI, for instance. 00:33:04.720 --> 00:33:07.680 So doing nature delivery within the field itself. 00:33:07.839 --> 00:33:12.240 I've you know, I know plenty of people who've got solar panels that graze them with sheep underneath. 00:33:12.720 --> 00:33:19.119 So trying to get across to the public that, you know, one a piece of land doesn't have to be used for one specific thing. 00:33:19.279 --> 00:33:21.759 It can do more than one thing is really difficult. 00:33:22.319 --> 00:33:30.640 Um but also to broaden that conversation because also getting across to the public that you can't use every piece of land for everything. 00:33:30.799 --> 00:33:46.000 So you know, lots of our

members, for example, live uh have have land and farmland around settlements, villages or towns, and have to have serious one-by-one arguments with people who want to walk their dog after the up the nature strip. 00:33:46.160 --> 00:33:49.279 And you're saying, no, no, that that is that just can't work together. 00:33:49.440 --> 00:33:59.759 We need to understand that, you know, there were there was a neighbor neighbor I had one time who used to take her dog into the middle of our arable field and with a with a ball and just exercise her dog. 00:33:59.839 --> 00:34:06.880 And you'd been saying, But you know, you do that every day, and let alone if anyone else does that every day, the food production doesn't happen. 00:34:07.039 --> 00:34:12.719 And the nature strip, if you let your dog go, you better believe they're gonna chase off every bit reptile and bird. 00:34:12.800 --> 00:34:27.360 And um, so we've got to sort of have a grown-up conversation about the fact that our land managers will I don't think it's a conversation that can happen at national level because then it becomes too Then you end up with the planning policy. 00:34:27.599 --> 00:34:27.920 Exactly. 00:34:28.239 --> 00:34:29.440 That makes it impossible for anyone to do anything. 00:34:29.840 --> 00:34:36.159 People have to just be educated to understand that there are certain areas that we're gonna do some things too and certain areas others. 00:34:36.559 --> 00:34:44.239 I I also wonder how we've ended up in a situation where the opinion of one person or even one species can trump everything else. 00:34:44.559 --> 00:34:49.119 So you know, you might start say no words. 00:34:49.679 --> 00:34:50.639 I'm I'm going there. 00:34:50.800 --> 00:35:05.119 You you might uh there might be a so we had it up in Yorkshire, we we worked with Natural England to design a uh essentially a landscape recovery scheme that that we were funding, it wasn't as part of a wider body, and by their definition, it was gonna benefit 400 species. 00:35:05.280 --> 00:35:07.760 One officer felt it might not benefit curlyw. 00:35:07.920 --> 00:35:09.119 Yeah, so they banned it. 00:35:09.280 --> 00:35:13.360 Having designed it with us, like they said what they wanted, we were going to deliver that. 00:35:13.599 --> 00:35:14.800 I was like, really? 00:35:15.199 --> 00:35:16.800 That that that's the definitive point. 00:35:16.960 --> 00:35:19.679 No, as a result of that, we pivoted and did something completely different. 00:35:19.840 --> 00:35:23.199 But we'd invested 30 plus thousand pounds in surveys to do that. 00:35:23.360 --> 00:35:27.840 If you're a private individual landowner, that's catastrophic to take someone to the that's the everything. 00:35:28.000 --> 00:35:29.039 Everything is a thing again. 00:35:29.280 --> 00:35:30.159 You're absolutely right, it is. 00:35:30.400 --> 00:35:38.079 Um, we've we've just got to work out how to and and to one neighbour can block a development that one neighbour who doesn't want their view changed can block. 00:35:38.400 --> 00:36:02.559 What's more scary now is is uh chatbots and uh and the whole thing of uh we're seeing uh members who've seen their consultation on their planning uh affected by people, you know, phoning in for or sending in things from Australia, New Zealand, from uh Russia, from wherever, uh, just orchestrated campaigns to stop them doing specific things. 00:36:03.199 --> 00:36:11.199 We had a uh organized campaign to stop a tree planting scheme for us in Scotland because the group didn't like the concept of capitalism. 00:36:11.599 --> 00:36:11.840 Okay. 00:36:12.000 --> 00:36:14.639 So we met them, spoke to them, and said, Oh, so you don't want us to plant trees? 00:36:14.800 --> 00:36:18.000 Oh no, we love the tree, it's a great idea, but there's nothing else for us to object to. 00:36:18.159 --> 00:36:20.800 So um, we want capitalism to change, so we're gonna object to this. 00:36:20.960 --> 00:36:21.119 Okay. 00:36:21.280 --> 00:36:21.440 Yeah. 00:36:21.599 --> 00:36:25.440 I don't know what you think I can do, but I I can't change the monetary system of the world. 00:36:25.760 --> 00:36:31.039 There's no there's no example you could give me that would shock me when it comes to sort of people preventing things in planning. 00:36:31.119 --> 00:36:33.039 It is, it is just extraordinary. 00:36:33.360 --> 00:36:34.559 That is an incredible quote. 00:36:34.880 --> 00:36:36.639 So we've kind of talked about government a little bit. 00:36:36.719 --> 00:36:42.400 I'm interested in um the relationship with your members and DEFRA at the moment. 00:36:42.559 --> 00:36:42.639 Okay. 00:36:42.960 --> 00:36:47.440 In terms of how that feels and how you hope it might change in the coming years. 00:36:48.159 --> 00:36:48.719 Wow. 00:36:48.880 --> 00:36:51.760 Um, so uh I think it's pretty good at the moment. 00:36:51.840 --> 00:36:55.199 I mean, it's always been very good at civil service level. 00:36:55.360 --> 00:37:00.000 Uh, I think we had a very good relationship with Janet Hughes. 00:37:00.079 --> 00:37:04.639 We've got a very good relationship with Mike Rowe on the Farming and Countryside program. 00:37:05.039 --> 00:37:09.519 Uh, I think ministerially it's been really hard because of the change. 00:37:09.679 --> 00:37:19.119 And I think actually we're quite positive about the fact that Angela Eagle's come back in because at least she's had a year um as farming minister, so she's got some idea of what's going on. 00:37:19.280 --> 00:37:25.840 Uh, you know, Stephen Morgan coming back in, admittedly, he's only he was only there a couple of months before um he came back in. 00:37:26.000 --> 00:37:35.440 But that continuity, I mean, we've always asked for continuity, and I think ministerially we've got it, and Jenny Riddle Carpenter, I think, is a brilliant asset as well. 00:37:35.679 --> 00:37:39.360 So uh I'm I'm relatively optimistic. 00:37:39.519 --> 00:38:03.280 I think we, you know, as an

organization, we probably wouldn't, uh our members wouldn't sit comfortably always with Labour Party politics necessarily, but I think where we sit with it very much aligned with national policy objectives is that if it is about growth and investment, then our members are right up for the challenge. 00:38:03.440 --> 00:38:12.000 And I think we've said that from you know from day one, that uh if you want productivity to increase in this country, our members can help with that. 00:38:12.320 --> 00:38:26.480 And and the other thing I'd add to that is that uh it feels like we've we have uh more particularly Gavin um has has got a good relationship going, and the whole team have got a good relationship going with the civil service, with DEFRA. 00:38:26.800 --> 00:38:35.360 The real challenge comes with Treasury and MHCLG, which is what unlocks so much of the potential and and or or doesn't. 00:38:35.679 --> 00:38:53.599 I think our biggest, I mean, I think it's really helpful to have a sort of a political heavyweight in Angela Eagle, who's been around uh for a while in politics, because I think DEFRA has to fight so hard for budgetary uh and for any changes that it wants. 00:38:53.760 --> 00:39:02.480 Uh, and I think the Treasury, you know, the Minette talked about the value of farming and how farming has always been undervalued. 00:39:02.559 --> 00:39:09.599 I'd say the whole of the rural economy has been undervalued, and we ask for very little budgetary-wise. 00:39:09.760 --> 00:39:16.559 And I think we are we we we you get massive bangs for your buck in terms of what we're able to deliver. 00:39:16.960 --> 00:39:22.800 Do you think we're anywhere near a recognition of how untapped the potential of the rural economy is? 00:39:23.360 --> 00:39:23.519 No. 00:39:23.760 --> 00:39:33.760 No, I mean the the bottom line is uh most of the things that need we need to find solutions for going forward are going to be found within the countryside. 00:39:34.159 --> 00:39:35.920 So it's everything. 00:39:36.000 --> 00:39:39.360 It's you know, that again, back to our rural powerhouse campaign. 00:39:39.599 --> 00:39:49.199 The amount we could can you remember the stat on uh we could level up the rural the rural economy to where it is. 00:39:49.519 --> 00:39:54.239 Uh you're gonna think 35 billion extra pounds a year or something like that. 00:39:54.639 --> 00:39:55.280 Something like that. 00:39:55.440 --> 00:40:06.639 But it's but I mean I I listened to your uh interview with George Eustace, and I remember him saying that the the DEFRA budget was a correction error in the in the NHS budget. 00:40:06.719 --> 00:40:15.039 You know, it I mean we are whatever it is, four billion, you know, we're talking about wanting another, is it 40 billion for defense, 60 billion for defence? 00:40:15.199 --> 00:40:22.960 I mean, we are such a our budget is so small, and I think we do so much um really, really well. 00:40:23.119 --> 00:40:29.280 And I think, to be fair, I think Emma Reynolds was very clear about putting that point across when she was uh Secretary of State. 00:40:29.360 --> 00:40:31.119 I think Angela Eagle will do the same. 00:40:31.280 --> 00:40:32.159 I hope she does. 00:40:33.199 --> 00:40:37.679 What else can we all collectively do as people that are working in the rural economy? 00:40:37.840 --> 00:40:43.199 How can we better be advocates and almost proactive campaigners for the potential? 00:40:43.679 --> 00:41:04.000 Well, the whole system seems to be set up at the moment that you you suggest you want to do something, grow your business in some small way, and and the whole system is you ask the people who might object in what way they object, you pile up all those objections and then throw up your hands and and run away. 00:41:04.239 --> 00:41:15.280 Um, it would be amazing if you could get some positive feed in to applications and and when people are trying to do things, actually get behind them. 00:41:15.519 --> 00:41:19.920 Because it's, you know, I also feel really sorry for our local politicians, for example. 00:41:20.079 --> 00:41:33.360 I was talking to some councillors the other day, local councillors who had followed their the the um the planning authority's recommendation to to approve uh three houses. 00:41:33.519 --> 00:41:41.840 Um, and they were now like landowners being spat at in local shops and for approving three houses. 00:41:42.079 --> 00:41:58.000 You know, we have to get to the point where politically uh you've got as much pressure coming in as for for pro as against before it can actually be dealt with on its merits rather than just how am I going to get elected again? 00:41:58.400 --> 00:42:08.800 Some um one of the absolute privileges of this podcast is I get to talk to incredible people, present company included, who make a statement and it's those things that are so obvious until they're said to you. 00:42:08.880 --> 00:42:17.519 And it's like someone flicks you in the forehead and you're like, in what of the world would we ask someone with an idea to go, could you please ask everyone who might hate this why it's bad? 00:42:17.679 --> 00:42:17.760 Yeah. 00:42:18.000 --> 00:42:25.760 And then report back why that is like if you if you asked for a way to psychologically stifle innovation, that would be the most effective way of doing it, wouldn't it? 00:42:25.840 --> 00:42:26.079 Yeah. 00:42:26.239 --> 00:42:31.599 Like, and and I I'm almost embarrassed it hadn't occurred to me how stupid that was. 00:42:31.679 --> 00:42:37.920 Like, obviously it was annoying, but just how absolutely against any form of growth agenda that possibly is. 00:42:38.239 --> 00:42:40.079 Because we don't ask anyone to support it, do we? 00:42:40.159 --> 00:42:43.440 We don't say you must go get an equal number of positive and negative things on this. 00:42:43.599 --> 00:42:44.000 Yeah, exactly. 00:42:44.159 --> 00:42:46.559 They just dismiss the positives, they'd just say, no, no, we only want

to hear the negatives. 00:42:46.719 --> 00:42:57.199 Yeah, and sometimes when I've been trying to do things, I'll get private messages from people saying, I'm too embarrassed to come in online because I don't but please don't stop. 00:42:57.599 --> 00:42:58.639 We get that so much. 00:42:59.199 --> 00:43:02.880 But it's also, I think, it's got worse with social media. 00:43:03.119 --> 00:43:08.719 And I think that that that and the fear of of us of a of a smear campaign. 00:43:08.800 --> 00:43:09.920 And we talked a lot about this. 00:43:10.000 --> 00:43:29.039 I mean, our conference this year is about storytelling, but it's also about the whole uh concept of how you tell positive stories and how also we talked about it last year at our business conference about when someone wants to have a concerted attack on you, a particular pressure group, how you deal with that. 00:43:29.280 --> 00:43:31.360 But it shouldn't really have to come to that. 00:43:31.440 --> 00:43:33.199 And I'm not sure why. 00:43:33.440 --> 00:43:35.840 Yeah, as you say, we're asking the wrong questions. 00:43:36.079 --> 00:43:36.400 We are. 00:43:36.480 --> 00:43:38.079 I if I can give an example. 00:43:38.239 --> 00:43:50.480 We've got a woodland, there's a very successful organization in um called Bull Wilderwood, who've got a sort of kids' adventure woodland park in Cheshire and in Norfolk, and they want to come and do one in Kent. 00:43:50.639 --> 00:43:59.519 And they see all the kids in London, they think they could get 120,000 kids into an adventure uh sort of within a woodland. 00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:18.000 80 new jobs, um very cheap tickets for locals to create a kind of place that everyone can go, and and you'd have raised walkways, so nothing gets damaged on the forest floor, not a single tree gets removed, and we got absolutely nowhere. 00:44:18.239 --> 00:44:40.159 Even with some, you know, actually, our local MP was very supportive, the head of the uh local authority was very supportive, the parish council was very supportive, but uh it was sort of near enough to an ancient woodland to just have an absolute no on it and no flexibility, and you just want to create the environment where that sort of thing would just fly through. 00:44:41.519 --> 00:44:49.599 Because the people who object don't have to provide an alternative or don't have to improve anything, they can just say stop everything. 00:44:50.000 --> 00:44:55.840 My rule in business is anyone can criticize or say no to anything as long as they come with a suggestion or an alternative to improve it. 00:44:56.000 --> 00:44:58.000 Otherwise, we're going ahead with that thing. 00:45:00.239 --> 00:45:01.920 We can't run for office though, can we? 00:45:02.000 --> 00:45:03.119 Because like I don't I don't want to do it. 00:45:03.440 --> 00:45:14.719 I'm sure we've all thought about it, everyone in this room, because you think it's a it's a time for everybody to get their shoulder behind the wheel and try and move things into a better, better place. 00:45:15.199 --> 00:45:18.400 But the system is if you ask George, it doesn't matter. 00:45:18.559 --> 00:45:27.920 Like, so um uh you you said you listened to the episode, but it George and I had it was very cathartic when he came on the show because obviously I was in the executive of the EA when he was the minister. 00:45:28.000 --> 00:45:28.079 Yeah. 00:45:28.239 --> 00:45:30.159 So he was able to say, When I did this, what happened? 00:45:30.320 --> 00:45:33.039 And I'm like, and he's like, I knew it, I knew that was the case. 00:45:33.199 --> 00:45:37.679 And I think as much as you might want to try, the machinery isn't gonna let you. 00:45:38.000 --> 00:45:39.760 Like he said about beavers. 00:45:39.840 --> 00:45:45.039 Um, you know, what everyone's perspective about beavers is, he said, I tried to approve that four times and said, Is there anything else I need to do? 00:45:45.199 --> 00:45:47.039 And he got told, nope, Minister, it's all done. 00:45:47.280 --> 00:45:49.199 Week later, there's just one more document. 00:45:49.519 --> 00:45:52.000 It's always just another document that that can slow it down. 00:45:52.320 --> 00:45:56.559 Beavers is the only thing I've nearly seen a physical fight break out on. 00:45:57.280 --> 00:45:58.159 CLA members. 00:45:58.320 --> 00:45:58.559 Yeah. 00:46:00.960 --> 00:46:04.639 There's been a few sort of you're not even trying if you don't get to Bisty Cuff, you know. 00:46:04.880 --> 00:46:05.039 Yeah. 00:46:05.119 --> 00:46:12.000 Uh Red Meat was uh um yeah, the red meat debate and uh and uh emissions uh from red meat. 00:46:12.639 --> 00:46:15.119 I think it we just to say we decided we were gonna avoid. 00:46:16.079 --> 00:46:18.719 I mean, yeah, there have been a few disagreements. 00:46:18.960 --> 00:46:23.519 Uh and then um oh, and wind turbines, I think, was also quite interesting. 00:46:23.840 --> 00:46:25.519 Well like wind turbines, but yeah. 00:46:25.920 --> 00:46:28.400 Um can we talk about inheritance tax? 00:46:28.639 --> 00:46:28.880 Yep. 00:46:29.199 --> 00:46:33.360 And how that felt where we are now and and where it might go next? 00:46:34.320 --> 00:46:55.199 Yeah, I mean where we are now, I think I've I was so I took the call, so because I was president at the time, I took the call from Emma Reynolds to tell us on the 23rd of December 2025 that they were going to uh increase the threshold from uh a million to 2.5 million. 00:46:55.519 --> 00:47:00.000 And uh I and she said she said, What do you think? 00:47:00.239 --> 00:47:09.920 And uh basically because it was the 23rd of December and I was in a holiday cottage in Cumbria um with my kids, I sort of said, I need some time to think about it. 00:47:10.239 --> 00:47:26.960 And uh I then went away and did think about it, and I just thought it it proved to some degree that they were it that the principle was wrong, but that they weren't prepared to fully reverse the changes. 00:47:27.280 -->

00:47:34.719 And I think we still have made you know the the we've made the points. 00:47:34.880 --> 00:47:42.320 I think clearly the points that we made are now coming into fruition, you know, uh are being played out. 00:47:42.480 --> 00:47:52.639 You know, we are seeing a lack of investment, we are seeing uh a reduction in growth uh in these businesses that frankly don't want to invest because they're worried about positional IHT. 00:47:52.800 --> 00:47:55.280 And I think that's all playing out. 00:47:55.679 --> 00:48:09.599 I don't know what more we can do, but I we will keep on pushing for a full reversal because this is the it the ideology is not working for the benefit of the economy of this country. 00:48:09.920 --> 00:48:10.400 Yeah. 00:48:10.559 --> 00:48:26.800 Um it's been interesting going around show season and AGM season and meeting members who just I mean, some have uh eighth generation of of a business they've actually really managed to build up over the last 10, 15 years. 00:48:27.039 --> 00:48:40.079 And now it's a properly good medium-sized business, and they're saying to me, what I need that's what I've done over the last 15 years, what I should do over the next 15 years, it would appear, is shrink it back down again. 00:48:40.400 --> 00:48:40.719 Yeah. 00:48:41.039 --> 00:48:44.159 So it's you which surely is not what we should be doing. 00:48:44.559 --> 00:48:55.599 You want to uh you want equity of opportunity, but the way that you're going to uh get equity of opportunity is to destroy equity of outcome. 00:48:56.239 --> 00:49:00.079 And I cannot see how that principle works. 00:49:00.400 --> 00:49:07.119 Because ultimately, any redistribution doesn't get rid of the privilege. 00:49:07.360 --> 00:49:11.440 The privilege is still there, it's just in somebody else's hands. 00:49:11.760 --> 00:49:13.920 So what is the problem you're trying to solve? 00:49:14.239 --> 00:49:26.079 Yeah, and if I and if I sell land to pay that inheritance tax, or my kids sell land to pay that inheritance tax, somebody else becomes the problem. 00:49:26.320 --> 00:49:26.800 Yeah. 00:49:27.280 --> 00:49:34.239 Um so I'd like to go on the record and say I think inheritance tax is offensive in in every which way, and I don't think it should exist at all. 00:49:34.639 --> 00:49:42.880 Um so um strictly speaking, I think the Labour Party's theory on this is this policy is for a younger me, right? 00:49:42.960 --> 00:49:47.760 So I was brought up in the Northeast, uh, family had nothing, rough childhood, etc. 00:49:48.079 --> 00:49:54.079 I'm the voter that's supposed to hate all the landowning classes because you've had it easy and I've got nothing. 00:49:54.639 --> 00:49:55.519 Bullshit. 00:49:55.760 --> 00:49:57.119 It's just not true. 00:49:57.280 --> 00:50:05.280 It's um I don't know who it actually benefits now, other than to it's the point we made before about let's drag everybody down rather than elevate. 00:50:05.440 --> 00:50:12.719 Um we had

Tom Bradshaw on the show and and I don't know if it was on the show or before, but he was telling me about some of the phone calls he'd had. 00:50:13.119 --> 00:50:17.519 You know, people in their 90s in pieces going, Do I need to make sure I die now? 00:50:17.760 --> 00:50:21.760 Yeah, yeah, we've we had a lot of morally offensive. 00:50:21.920 --> 00:50:22.159 Yeah, yeah. 00:50:22.480 --> 00:50:23.039 It really is. 00:50:23.119 --> 00:50:34.320 And I just uh you know, and and I think again, research team did an amazing job, but I think your study pointed to something like a net loss of nearly two billion pounds for the economy in terms of the impact of this change. 00:50:34.880 --> 00:50:35.599 That was just the treasury. 00:50:35.920 --> 00:50:36.400 That was the treasury. 00:50:37.039 --> 00:50:39.119 No, the economy we think is 15 billion. 00:50:39.440 --> 00:50:49.519 But I mean, I always use that because I think it's easier to, it's perhaps politically easier to explain it in terms of business property relief rather than agricultural property relief. 00:50:49.599 --> 00:50:52.079 But I always give the example of Martin Thatcher. 00:50:52.159 --> 00:50:55.440 And I I've never asked him whether I can use this example, but I will do. 00:50:55.519 --> 00:51:01.119 Uh but he put in, he's put in a it's a family-owned business, it's whatever, three, four generations. 00:51:01.199 --> 00:51:05.039 Uh, he put in a 30 million quid bottling plant, right? 00:51:05.440 --> 00:51:11.760 And he's now sitting there thinking, how much is this going to be valued if I was to keel over tomorrow? 00:51:11.840 --> 00:51:22.480 And how much is are my kids going to be liable to pay out of a business um which is still generating uh money, but nowhere near enough money to pay that tax. 00:51:22.639 --> 00:51:34.719 And that I think that's more because it's a bottling plant, it probably feels slightly, but it's feels much more of a business asset than land, which feels I think gets, you know, it gets conflated as personal wealth. 00:51:34.800 --> 00:51:36.639 And you know, we can have a debate about that. 00:51:36.800 --> 00:51:47.679 Uh, but but I think that that the trouble is he's become, you know, uh in you know, this is a tax that is affecting him and affecting a business asset. 00:51:47.840 --> 00:51:49.280 He loses the business asset. 00:51:49.440 --> 00:51:51.280 Who actually gains out of that? 00:51:51.760 --> 00:52:16.480 Yeah, I mean, I I always think about two hotels next door to each other, or or one's one's owned by Hilton, one's owned by a family who've owned it for a few generations, that that hotel business that's owned by a family every, let's say, 30 years is going to have to find a percentage of the, you know, it wasn't supposed to cut off four rooms from the side of it and sell them off. 00:52:16.800 --> 00:52:16.960 Exactly. 00:52:17.199 --> 00:52:19.440 And and and it's it's just not equivalent. 00:52:19.519 --> 00:52:33.039 So that's so how are you supposed to be competitive with other businesses just because we're in a rural area, you know, we all rely on the land our business sits on, whether we're a hotel in Mayfair or or Kent. 00:52:33.599 --> 00:52:43.119 It comes back to this whole point of how you encourage uh aspiration and how you encourage business aspiration, people to do the right things. 00:52:43.360 --> 00:52:48.480 I mean, anyone can go and flog anything and live off the proceeds. 00:52:48.719 --> 00:53:01.599 But, you know, we want to try and make people aspire to running successful, long-term, sustainable businesses in a period of potential ecosystem collapse. 00:53:01.760 --> 00:53:09.039 And there is so much that they can do to solve the problems of that ecosystem collapse, and yet they're being encouraged not to invest in their businesses. 00:53:09.280 --> 00:53:14.320 I mean, that seems at best naive, but at worst just nah. 00:53:14.639 --> 00:53:19.840 It just feels like no one's actually sat down and gone, if all goes as we want it to, what does good look like? 00:53:20.159 --> 00:53:20.480 Exactly. 00:53:20.719 --> 00:53:23.039 It just feels like there's no we're gonna do and it's gonna fall off. 00:53:23.360 --> 00:53:24.800 There's no there's no good outcome. 00:53:25.360 --> 00:53:26.239 Exactly. 00:53:27.280 --> 00:53:36.159 Um, no, I mean so I I'm just gonna come back on a positive thing for that. 00:53:36.320 --> 00:54:04.639 I do think that if if you could design a good system, it would be getting people who know the land really well, love it, are prepared to take a low return on capital employed, and and uh have a history of of putting their community and and um not only their own interests at heart in in all their decisions. 00:54:04.719 --> 00:54:09.840 And that's and that's what we've got in those multi-generational land businesses. 00:54:10.320 --> 00:54:26.079 And I think there's enough politically that get it uh on all sides of uh, you know, I mean the the the conservatives have come out and said that they want a full reversal, but you know, Alastair Carmichael, Lib Dem uh has been has pushed it was the one that pushed really, really hard. 00:54:26.159 --> 00:54:30.079 He was the one in the select committee that really had a go at Keir Starmer. 00:54:30.320 --> 00:54:41.280 Uh, you know, we've seen the uh the Labour Um Rural Research Group, uh, those MPs that have been involved with that, they they see how detrimental this is to everything. 00:54:41.440 --> 00:54:54.000 So it's not that we are that we haven't got cross-party, you know, consensus, not consensus, but at least cross-party uh um agreement on the fact that that this needs to be looked at. 00:54:54.159 --> 00:54:58.480 Um it's not one political, it's not even it's sort of apolitical in a funny sort of way. 00:54:58.719 --> 00:55:14.480 Yeah, I can see in my own business that I I just am making decisions, you know, the sort of crazy decisions I used to maybe make um where really the

income was going to be pretty negligible, but it was just going to improve things for everybody. 00:55:14.719 --> 00:55:18.639 Uh I now think, well, no, but that's also going to increase the capital value. 00:55:18.960 --> 00:55:21.840 So what I really can't afford to do that. 00:55:22.960 --> 00:55:24.800 It is perverse incentifications. 00:55:25.440 --> 00:55:30.719 Um speaking of perverse incentifications, um, what do you think about BNG in general? 00:55:32.480 --> 00:55:40.079 Um uh it's been it's been something that we've debated a lot within the CLA. 00:55:40.239 --> 00:55:51.840 I think overall, uh opportunities, you know, definitely opportunities for our landowners to get involved in provision of BNG. 00:55:52.239 --> 00:56:10.480 I think uh the change to it was it was debated quite hard within the CLA, the change to the small site exemption and um but I think with national infrastructure projects coming into the Were you guys was that viewed positively or negatively based on the I think it was pretty much halfway. 00:56:10.719 --> 00:56:22.719 So a lot of people feeling that um it should be, you know, that the the the is it 0.2 hectares or whatever was was too high, and then a lot of people feeling that it that there should have been much it should have been much higher. 00:56:22.960 --> 00:56:33.519 Well you just don't want to add one more thing onto the thing, the the the hurdle you want to cost if uh cross if you're trying to get planning for something, but at the same time there's the opportunity for people to deliver the BNG. 00:56:33.920 --> 00:56:43.280 I personally got caught up in it when we were trying to build another commercial unit uh on our farm, and uh we've we've effectively waited until now to put the planning permission in. 00:56:43.440 --> 00:57:01.039 But whilst we were trying to get uh a BNG um whilst we were trying to get through the BNG hurdle, we we were coming up against the fact that we couldn't find an ecologist, we couldn't find you know I mean the actual the actual delivery, the practical delivery uh was was really, really hard as well. 00:57:01.360 --> 00:57:04.800 So I think I think that's part of the problem. 00:57:05.280 --> 00:57:18.159 A lot of the problems we've been talking about today is the ideas are great and we understand wh where the ideas come from, but if you can't deliver, you really are in a yeah, everybody, everybody is pro-BNG. 00:57:18.320 --> 00:57:18.639 Yeah. 00:57:18.800 --> 00:57:21.440 It's just how do you make it work in practice? 00:57:21.679 --> 00:57:22.000 Yeah. 00:57:22.239 --> 00:57:29.360 I think the another problem with our friends in government, um, they don't recognise or care about the time cost of money. 00:57:29.679 --> 00:57:29.920 No. 00:57:30.239 --> 00:57:37.920 So the the NGOs especially um will be like, um, sorry, so the arm's length public bodies will be like, oh, just delay it a year. 00:57:38.639 --> 00:57:39.519 No, no, no. 00:57:39.679 --> 00:57:46.559 If you've borrowed money, if you have a mortgage on this, if if you're required to return something to an investor, that that's game over. 00:57:46.880 --> 00:57:48.960 A year is beyond your project. 00:57:49.199 --> 00:57:59.360 Uh so for the chicken shed project that I talked about, um, a planning permission granted in 2020, I think, uh, cost of build 985,000. 00:57:59.519 --> 00:58:01.920 Uh today cost of build 1.8 million. 00:58:02.159 --> 00:58:16.400 Yeah, I've just I'm just I'm just cancelling a project which was uh we started going for planning four years ago, and the figures pretty much made sense uh for a barn conversion for for local business to move into four years on. 00:58:16.719 --> 00:58:19.599 We finally got planning permission, but can't do it. 00:58:19.840 --> 00:58:22.639 So the cost of delay is enormous on build projects. 00:58:22.960 --> 00:58:25.840 The worst example of this I've heard from a slightly different context. 00:58:26.000 --> 00:58:28.719 Are you familiar with something called the sphere in Las Vegas? 00:58:29.039 --> 00:58:34.639 It's a sports stadium, but the entire outside is circular, the entire outside is a TV screen. 00:58:34.880 --> 00:58:39.039 I think I have seen it, and you can see it's you can put whatever you want on the outside of it and the inside of it. 00:58:39.119 --> 00:58:40.400 Okay, this thing's incredible. 00:58:40.639 --> 00:58:40.800 Okay. 00:58:40.960 --> 00:58:43.760 The planning permission, so it's been open in Vegas four years, I think. 00:58:44.159 --> 00:58:46.960 The planning permission for Vegas and London went in at the same time. 00:58:47.199 --> 00:58:47.360 Yeah. 00:58:47.599 --> 00:58:49.280 The Vegas one's been open four years. 00:58:49.440 --> 00:58:51.920 They haven't heard the planning decision in London. 00:58:52.239 --> 00:58:53.280 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:58:53.679 --> 00:58:53.920 Okay. 00:58:54.480 --> 00:58:56.400 We're just choosing irrelevance, aren't we? 00:58:57.360 --> 00:58:59.119 Are we moving to Vegas? 00:59:00.000 --> 00:59:03.440 I so I went to San Francisco, I told James this, so we had dinner with James last night. 00:59:03.599 --> 00:59:10.559 I got invited to go out to San Francisco Climate Week because um my PhD is big data systems and analysis and things like that. 00:59:10.639 --> 00:59:15.679 And with the flow of everything to that world at the minute, we're constantly told our business would be even better in the US. 00:59:15.760 --> 00:59:18.559 So I was like, right, let's go spend some time over there and see if we want to. 00:59:18.719 --> 00:59:21.679 Came back and my wife decided we're not moving to the West Coast. 00:59:22.320 --> 00:59:29.760 I just remember going and thinking about it, going to Vegas, and uh what I hadn't realized is that my hotel had a roller coaster around the outside of it. 00:59:29.840 --> 00:59:36.159 So when I opened the curtains naked in the morning, I was greeted by people going past on the roller coaster. 00:59:37.199

--> 00:59:38.800 They were screaming, I was screaming. 00:59:38.880 --> 00:59:40.719 It was uh it was not it was not pretty. 00:59:41.199 --> 00:59:44.559 That's the thumbnail penny, some roller coaster coming past in it. 00:59:45.599 --> 01:00:14.239 Um let's go from BNG to the array of so we were promised public money for public good, we were promised everything that dropped away, we were promised a Brexit windfall, and what we seem to have have got is the scraps that were were left behind of sustainable farming initiatives that so looking at that as we do, it almost feels like more money's being spent on designing and redesigning these than have actually gone into the pot. 01:00:14.719 --> 01:00:21.039 If I surveyed your members, how do they feel about those things that are available now and and how interested are they in securing them? 01:00:22.320 --> 01:00:23.519 I think it's really hard. 01:00:23.840 --> 01:00:26.880 Our members are, you know, they're not policy developers. 01:00:27.199 --> 01:00:31.519 They will they will be they will be incentivized by market signals. 01:00:31.679 --> 01:00:38.320 So if you make a scheme that is too generous, our members will take that generosity uh as much as well. 01:00:40.880 --> 01:00:45.199 I don't think people realise how agile and decisive they are if that happens. 01:00:45.360 --> 01:00:52.480 Because so you wouldn't have your your bottling factory that all of a sudden was doing something different tomorrow, but there is certainly that entrepreneurship. 01:00:53.760 --> 01:01:00.079 And I think uh I think that there's a few within DEFRA that think that it was driven by agents. 01:01:00.320 --> 01:01:10.400 I don't know whether it was driven by agents or not, but I but if you come up with a a scheme which is an attract is attractive financially, people will want to go into it. 01:01:10.480 --> 01:01:14.639 And so uh I got involved with SFI from the early years. 01:01:14.800 --> 01:01:17.599 We simply couldn't get people in to start off with. 01:01:17.679 --> 01:01:27.519 You know, when we were making the case for SFI to uh our members, it was all I'll wait and see what happens, you know, I'm not sure it's for us, blah, blah, blah. 01:01:27.679 --> 01:01:31.039 And of course, uh the basic payment scheme was still there. 01:01:31.199 --> 01:01:37.679 Um, and and that was supporting, you know, that was helping those people defer the decision, as it were. 01:01:37.840 --> 01:02:08.400 Um, and then I think uh the it the whole thing changed round, you know, people suddenly realised that uh BPS was dropping away, and the um the generosity of the scheme when it was uh say the SFI 24, when that was still open up until March 25, um that was still uh it was you could see it was gaining momentum, and and anyone could see that the wheels were going to come off because the budget was going to run out at some point. 01:02:08.639 --> 01:02:19.440 Um there are endless questions now about why it was stopped so suddenly, uh, but obviously part of that problem was the overspend. 01:02:19.760 --> 01:02:31.760 Uh and now what we've seen is almost the government saying, well, you know, we will retract the scheme as much as possible to make sure that we don't end up in that situation again. 01:02:31.920 --> 01:02:37.199 And I think that's been very much sort of uh dealt with by the Treasury. 01:02:37.440 --> 01:02:48.400 Uh that what has failed to being talked about through the whole of this process is the outcomes, you know, and that's what we're interested in. 01:02:48.559 --> 01:02:54.159 I I'm not interested about the who or or necessarily the how. 01:02:54.559 --> 01:03:00.480 I want the I want the results, you know, uh, you know, personally, but also I think that's what the politicians want. 01:03:00.639 --> 01:03:09.599 We we have the environmental improvement plan, we have those uh targets, we have to do this one way or another, and we have to do it with private landowners, whether we like it or not. 01:03:09.920 --> 01:03:23.840 And uh I think that there is a case now to say that we've cut the budget by far too much, um, that we are not, that it is too restrictive, and people are we it effectively people are gonna miss out. 01:03:23.920 --> 01:03:34.800 And we're not sure as an organization whether the people that are gonna miss out are gonna be the ones that would have been best at delivery, and the people that get the money might not be the best at delivery. 01:03:34.880 --> 01:03:36.880 It's it's just not clear. 01:03:37.039 --> 01:03:43.440 Um I went to a meeting where where they were saying, um, you know, we just want the tax pound to go further. 01:03:43.599 --> 01:03:45.599 And I was saying, but but that's efficiency. 01:03:45.760 --> 01:03:54.960 And if if you're looking for efficiency, if you wanted a hospital built, you wouldn't share it out amongst all the builders to each each hospital being built by a different. 01:03:56.159 --> 01:03:56.639 Exactly. 01:03:56.719 --> 01:04:10.880 But what you want is people who and what's happening at the moment with the cap is you've got people who went into it because they really believed in it and they've invested their own money and they've really got into it and they've made themselves as efficient as possible, can deliver so much. 01:04:11.440 --> 01:04:23.599 And now, you know, what I'm also dealing with when I was going around was meeting were meeting people who were really upset because they were having to dig up incredible projects they'd done because it was over the cap. 01:04:23.920 --> 01:04:40.000 And it slightly comes back to this whole equity of opportunity versus equity of outcomes and how for some reason, I don't know what it is, but land, land management and land ownership, you know, faces more scrutiny than other areas. 01:04:40.239 --> 01:04:40.960 I mean, yeah, what is it? 01:04:41.119 --> 01:04:49.360 Buyers, the French builders that that do that have a lot of government, you

know, take on a lot of government contracts. 01:04:49.440 --> 01:04:53.920 I think they took on 1.9 billion quids worth of government contracts last year. 01:04:54.079 --> 01:04:58.880 And nobody asks any questions about whether that what the fairness of that is. 01:04:59.440 --> 01:05:01.199 All they're interested in is whether the hospitals are built. 01:05:01.440 --> 01:05:02.239 And if it's sufficient. 01:05:02.400 --> 01:05:03.199 And if it's sufficient. 01:05:03.440 --> 01:05:04.000 Sometimes. 01:05:04.320 --> 01:05:05.760 Yeah, that's what they should be. 01:05:06.559 --> 01:05:10.559 Um I've got some horror stories about flood defences I'll share with you later. 01:05:11.119 --> 01:05:20.400 Um, my my version of that is um we are constantly asked what other benefits are being delivered beyond the day job. 01:05:20.800 --> 01:05:29.920 So uh, and I say, so um SpaceX just IPO for two trillion dollars because they're gonna be really good at putting things in space cheaply. 01:05:30.239 --> 01:05:31.920 No one's sailing to Elon Musk. 01:05:32.000 --> 01:05:33.760 How many homes did you build for people locally? 01:05:33.840 --> 01:05:35.599 How many jobs did you create round the corner? 01:05:35.760 --> 01:05:36.320 What's this other? 01:05:36.639 --> 01:05:40.960 Whereas anything to do with the rural economy, it's not enough to do the thing we do really well. 01:05:41.119 --> 01:05:45.440 You can't just be a food producer that makes great food, economically viable, and create some jobs. 01:05:45.519 --> 01:05:46.880 It's like, yeah, but what else did you do? 01:05:46.960 --> 01:05:51.360 And what else they they want the land economy to solve every ill of society, not just be a really great business. 01:05:51.679 --> 01:05:52.559 Everything is in. 01:05:52.960 --> 01:05:59.519 Um and uh and also uh sort of when I think about so I I make about 1%. 01:06:00.320 --> 01:06:01.679 Return on capital. 01:06:02.559 --> 01:06:10.880 And of that 1%, I probably put 80% of it back into the estate because I love it. 01:06:11.199 --> 01:06:18.400 So just to classify that for people, a philanthropic investor would seek four, maybe. 01:06:18.559 --> 01:06:21.280 An impact investor would seek four to eight percent. 01:06:22.159 --> 01:06:24.480 There is no one that will lend you money at 1%. 01:06:24.960 --> 01:06:25.280 Exactly. 01:06:25.599 --> 01:06:29.280 And how many times an hour do you think about selling? 01:06:30.559 --> 01:06:32.320 Depends whether I'm with you. 01:06:32.800 --> 01:06:34.800 Gavin and I can get very depressed. 01:06:35.360 --> 01:06:36.800 But no, no, I don't. 01:06:37.920 --> 01:06:45.199 So my husband and I talk about the fact we have sell it all days and and you know, so grateful to be alive days. 01:06:45.360 --> 01:06:48.480 Um and and sometimes that's minute by minute. 01:06:48.559 --> 01:06:50.159 It is it's a lot. 01:06:50.239 --> 01:07:00.320 And and as well as all that, you you know, we pick up fly tipping and uh clear the

snowy road the snowy roads, and the uh the the council wouldn't get there for five days. 01:07:00.400 --> 01:07:13.920 So what what we do for the econom for the local economy is also, even though I completely agree with you that the measures shouldn't include all these other uh factors, these that's what our members are delivering. 01:07:14.320 --> 01:07:15.440 That's what our members are delivering. 01:07:15.760 --> 01:07:31.519 Goes back to the value thing, and I I think when you I mean you see that what what's been going on with uh farmers helping with wildfires, you know, uh uh without that help, you know, this you know, the fire service would be in a you know a hell of a situation. 01:07:31.679 --> 01:07:38.400 Uh and I just don't, you know, I don't think people want to be rewarded, they just want to understand that there is penalised for it. 01:07:38.559 --> 01:07:40.079 Yeah, but they don't want to be penalised, exactly. 01:07:40.239 --> 01:07:40.320 Yeah. 01:07:40.719 --> 01:07:49.199 Charlie Conley spoke about it beautifully when he came in about how um so he was one of the his his maiden speech was on public access to land. 01:07:49.280 --> 01:07:53.039 Yeah, and he is a pro, he believes people should have access to land. 01:07:53.199 --> 01:08:03.360 He said, I will premise that by saying I've had my sheep bludgeoned to death with a baseball bat, I've had extensive fly tipping on his front lawn that happened, extensive fly tipping. 01:08:03.440 --> 01:08:09.199 Uh when his dad was still around, he had IRA bombs buried in his woodlands and had to have the bomb disposal squad out. 01:08:09.280 --> 01:08:16.079 And he's like, I still think there should be public access, but I do think I should be protected as a landowner for the damage that's done. 01:08:16.159 --> 01:08:16.319 Yeah. 01:08:16.479 --> 01:08:23.439 You know, or compensated for the fact that um, you know, if if an entire crop field is damaged, that shouldn't be on you to bear the financial brunt of that. 01:08:23.520 --> 01:08:28.399 If you're not fly tipping around us is just unbelievable. 01:08:28.800 --> 01:08:32.319 And you drive along the road, you see fly tipping. 01:08:32.479 --> 01:08:35.119 If it's on the verge, that's my problem. 01:08:35.359 --> 01:08:39.119 If they happen to put it on the road, it's the council's problem. 01:08:39.279 --> 01:08:43.039 And you sort of think, Well, this is absolutely ridiculous. 01:08:43.359 --> 01:08:45.920 Well, if you're a landowner, how do you not go along with the tractor and scoop it? 01:08:46.000 --> 01:08:48.159 You're like well, that's what happens sometimes. 01:08:48.720 --> 01:08:57.680 But I mean, but uh we're lucky that we've got, you know, we're I think that there should be an appreciation of the fact that people don't go and break the law. 01:08:57.840 --> 01:09:16.479 No, you know, I mean it it's I don't it's very, very hard, but I don't I think that sometimes it comes back to the whole thing with with planning and

various other things, is that you you don't want a free-for-all, but in order not to get a free-for-all, you have to cut some, you know, cut some slack somewhere. 01:09:17.680 --> 01:09:28.399 Um so we are living at a all the future impacts of climate change that we were told were coming tomorrow and the next day, they arrived yesterday. 01:09:28.640 --> 01:09:30.079 We are literally living in it now. 01:09:30.159 --> 01:09:33.760 So we had a huge wildfire on our neighbouring estate up in the Kerngoms. 01:09:33.920 --> 01:09:35.439 I was I was there last week. 01:09:35.680 --> 01:09:38.800 Um we were a kilometre away from it hitting our estate. 01:09:38.880 --> 01:09:43.520 So we're next door to Abernethy, tens of thousands of acres got obliterated on their side. 01:09:43.680 --> 01:09:47.279 Um have you seen wildfire up close in the aftermath of it? 01:09:47.520 --> 01:09:50.399 Uh I've seen the aftermath in Norfolk when Ken Hill went up. 01:09:50.720 --> 01:09:56.000 But um uh but that wasn't a that was big scale for Ken Hill, but it wasn't like a Ken Gornfire. 01:09:56.239 --> 01:10:11.039 It's so so I've based on different chapters of careers, I've been the first on the ground after biblical floods in Cornwall, I've been industrial waste fires, I've been uh urban fires and chemical spills and and and wildfires now. 01:10:11.359 --> 01:10:16.239 There is a apocalyptic eeriness to arriving in those environments. 01:10:16.399 --> 01:10:18.399 Nothing feels normal like it should. 01:10:18.640 --> 01:10:20.399 So you get there, everything is black. 01:10:20.560 --> 01:10:22.239 I'll I'll show you some photos after we finish recording. 01:10:22.319 --> 01:10:23.520 Everything's black and destroyed. 01:10:23.680 --> 01:10:36.720 The ground you're standing on sounds like snow because it it crumbles and compacts, and the underlying peatland that has been burnt away, a fire will immediately start under a tree somewhere because it's still burning underground. 01:10:36.880 --> 01:10:41.680 You know, we are seeing these things we told would only come in the worst cases of climate change. 01:10:41.840 --> 01:10:43.199 We're seeing them now. 01:10:43.439 --> 01:10:51.359 How are your members and how are you guys thinking about the adaptation and the things you need to change to try and survive in these uh sort of climatic changes? 01:10:51.600 --> 01:10:58.560 So, one of the things that I think about with that wildfire was uh I was talking to someone the other day who used to do controlled burning. 01:10:58.640 --> 01:11:02.880 Um, and apparently they used to be able to bury a Mars bar under the ground. 01:11:03.119 --> 01:11:06.560 I've heard this and it doesn't melt in a control burn. 01:11:06.720 --> 01:11:11.520 And yet these wildfires just create this unbelievable damage to the peatland. 01:11:11.840 --> 01:11:27.600 So one thing that uh we it would be really helpful to do is is to stop kind of again being idle ideological about it, being really pragmatic and looking at what actually works rather than uh what you know. 01:11:28.479 --> 01:11:28.720 Yeah. 01:11:29.199 --> 01:11:32.640 I mean, I think it's every box, it's every tool in the box, basically. 01:11:32.960 --> 01:11:36.239 I don't think it has to be, it obviously doesn't have to be. 01:11:36.479 --> 01:11:45.920 I mean, this is the argument about your, you know, your polarity and your you know getting you know these two different views, but it doesn't have to be just about controlled burning. 01:11:46.079 --> 01:11:48.479 Obviously, rewetting is really, really important. 01:11:48.640 --> 01:12:04.079 Obviously, grazing in the right areas, cutting where it can be cut, but but trying to reduce that fuel load and trying, I think trying to have predictive mapping, so you can, you know, you can take the Cairngorm situation and think, where is this going to happen again? 01:12:04.159 --> 01:12:06.319 You know, what is the likelihood of this happening again? 01:12:06.479 --> 01:12:07.920 Where is it likely to happen? 01:12:08.079 --> 01:12:19.840 And then you can plan, but there doesn't seem to be there, doesn't seem to be yet that sort of uh focus that there is perhaps in North America or or Spain or France. 01:12:20.239 --> 01:12:25.279 I mean that's only that's only that's only me looking in on it and I'm not no expert. 01:12:25.600 --> 01:12:31.439 And with flooding, it would be great to have an arrangement with people to hold water on their land. 01:12:31.680 --> 01:12:36.479 Um but obviously if you're gonna if you're gonna flood out your crop, you should be compensated for it. 01:12:36.560 --> 01:12:37.760 It's not it's not rocket science. 01:12:38.079 --> 01:12:40.800 Penny, you can timestamp this because it's definitely gonna happen. 01:12:40.960 --> 01:12:46.560 Every time we've had a summer like this one, the autumn or winter is followed with biblical floods. 01:12:46.720 --> 01:12:48.560 Yeah, yeah, of course, because you're so compacted with the. 01:13:04.239 --> 01:13:05.439 Um, it it's going to come. 01:13:06.000 --> 01:13:11.760 I think our members are really interested in nature-based solutions, both for flooding uh for wildfire, for everything else. 01:13:11.840 --> 01:13:13.279 Uh and that's it will come. 01:13:13.359 --> 01:13:15.920 It's building too much momentum, it's too logical. 01:13:16.079 --> 01:13:18.800 The problem is it'll come too slow, but we will get there. 01:13:19.199 --> 01:13:23.680 But I mean, a quick answer is permitted development from farm reservoirs. 01:13:24.560 --> 01:13:31.840 Um we think that our members are slightly ahead of the game, you know, uh in terms of where politics sits at the moment. 01:13:32.000 --> 01:13:34.960 As in, you know, we've got members that are putting in olive groves. 01:13:35.199 --> 01:13:39.039 We've obviously had loads of members that are putting um uh vineyards. 01:13:39.520 --> 01:13:43.840 It is there people are changing their cropping, they're changing their

cropping systems. 01:13:44.159 --> 01:13:57.279 On the vineyards, I didn't want to interrupt your flow earlier, but we should plug the amazing episode that Ed Mansell Lewis did from Night Frank talking all about how that uh so he he bought the first champagne vineyard that was bought in the UK and scaled up the industry following that. 01:13:57.359 --> 01:13:59.600 So the shout out to Night Frank on that one. 01:13:59.840 --> 01:14:14.479 Um no, it's uh yeah there's an issue with demand and supply, I gather, at the moment, but that but I think that long term, those opportunities, and I think we have to see it as far as opportunities concerned. 01:14:14.640 --> 01:14:27.439 Uh, we will need to change our cropping, we will not change our cropping systems, we will need to think far more about soil health, we're gonna have to think far more about, as we've talked about, water either excess or or not enough. 01:14:27.600 --> 01:14:31.439 Um, but that requires it would be great to see a lead from government. 01:14:31.600 --> 01:14:35.199 It would be great to see a sort of resilience lead from government. 01:14:35.439 --> 01:14:37.039 And also some funding. 01:14:37.279 --> 01:14:46.960 Uh also some funding, but also probably that bigger conversation about what where the private market sits in all this, and you know, whether there is a role for the private market. 01:14:47.279 --> 01:14:49.600 I think I don't think we need the funding from government. 01:14:49.760 --> 01:14:51.439 I just think we need the freedom to do it. 01:14:51.520 --> 01:14:51.680 Yeah. 01:14:52.000 --> 01:15:00.720 So I so I think we could raise you significant capital tomorrow to build a whole network of private reservoirs if they had a a a mandated permission to go. 01:15:00.960 --> 01:15:01.199 Yeah. 01:15:01.279 --> 01:15:05.680 I mean, and and what CLA have been arguing for is literally permitted development. 01:15:05.840 --> 01:15:13.520 You know, it's a bit like if you're gonna build nuclear power stations, why not have a standard nuclear power station model that can we'll just do 10 of them? 01:15:13.600 --> 01:15:17.600 Um and most of that, most of the planning permission has already been agreed for that. 01:15:17.760 --> 01:15:19.039 You just have to agree where to put them. 01:15:23.680 --> 01:15:25.279 If we could just get that signed off. 01:15:25.920 --> 01:15:28.640 You're not gonna put in a nuclear power, are you? 01:15:29.119 --> 01:15:29.680 Yeah, definitely. 01:15:30.000 --> 01:15:31.920 But Greenbelt AOMB, no problem. 01:15:32.319 --> 01:15:33.920 AOM B nuclear power station. 01:15:34.800 --> 01:15:36.720 People have done worse, I'm sure. 01:15:37.039 --> 01:15:39.439 Um, can I take us on to talent? 01:15:39.840 --> 01:15:49.920 So um we we started the the episode almost talking about the rural economy through the lens of start-up and scale-up businesses and the fact you've got all of those. 01:15:50.159 --> 01:16:09.920 The thing that's allowed us to do what we've done is I I've hit a unique spot whereby there aren't that many exciting places to work in the sort of pure environment sector because people prior to us could go work for a Wildlife Trust or a Rivers Trust who were doing a wholesome thing, but it was slow and steady, and you weren't working with tech or data, and nothing was exciting and different. 01:16:10.239 --> 01:16:22.159 How do you think about the next generation in the rural economy and in terms of land about attracting talent and keeping the young talented people so they're not rushing to the city to all go be bankers or consultants? 01:16:22.560 --> 01:16:32.399 Well, we've both got we've both got kids who are leaving university and school now, and um it is a really strange time to be to be in that zone. 01:16:32.479 --> 01:16:40.880 Um, and I would say, you know, when I what I didn't expect when I got into the CLA was the there are so many young people who work there. 01:16:41.199 --> 01:16:45.680 Um I'm so brainy, so forward-thinking. 01:16:45.760 --> 01:16:52.800 And the reason they come to the CLA is that they see that the CLA members can actually make things happen. 01:16:53.039 --> 01:16:56.159 That, you know, we can all be very good. 01:16:56.479 --> 01:17:01.359 We can all be very pure in our excellence of environmental theory. 01:17:01.840 --> 01:17:09.840 But if you want to actually get out there and make uh, you know, an unusual type of butterfly land, you you've got to do it on the ground. 01:17:09.920 --> 01:17:11.600 And that's where our members come in. 01:17:12.079 --> 01:17:14.640 Um, and the more we can encourage that, the better. 01:17:15.119 --> 01:17:16.800 So I think there's there's a bit of opportunities. 01:17:17.439 --> 01:17:18.800 Yeah, there's massive opportunity. 01:17:18.880 --> 01:17:27.760 I think a lot of us uh and our members are pretty proactive, they're not the sorts that have you know um breakouts and workshops and eat a lot of biscuits. 01:17:27.840 --> 01:17:33.359 I mean, they generally get on with like building and yet another strategy document. 01:17:33.760 --> 01:17:34.960 We we almost touched on it earlier. 01:17:35.199 --> 01:17:35.840 No strategy document. 01:17:36.399 --> 01:17:39.119 No more, please, no more plans, just actually do some stuff. 01:17:39.439 --> 01:17:44.399 Yeah, and actually hardly I mean, I can't my business, we've never done a strategy document. 01:17:44.560 --> 01:17:46.239 We just take one step forward. 01:17:46.399 --> 01:17:49.920 If the butterfly arrives, we take another step forward and then hope for ten. 01:17:50.159 --> 01:18:03.279 And or whether that's a you earn a pound by, you know, I've for example, I tried to set up a mediation center, I put sort of five thousand pounds into bringing in nice sofas and and repainting a room and nobody came. 01:18:03.439 --> 01:18:05.520 So you don't spend another five thousand pounds there. 01:18:05.600 --> 01:18:09.520 But I did the same in the festival space and

lots of people came. 01:18:09.600 --> 01:18:16.319 So then you take an you know, that's it's about being iterative and yeah, and they and they're and not being afraid to fail. 01:18:16.560 --> 01:18:19.840 And uh they're bloody brave, you know, especially our next gen. 01:18:20.079 --> 01:18:24.560 Whenever we go to the next gen conference, I'm blown away by the bravery, you know. 01:18:25.119 --> 01:18:28.319 Loving the next gen, they they they they they're up for a challenge. 01:18:28.560 --> 01:18:30.640 Is it literally labelled the next gen conference? 01:18:30.720 --> 01:18:33.119 Yeah it is, but that's next gen company. 01:18:35.840 --> 01:18:39.680 It can cover a lot of different no, it's brilliant then. 01:18:42.159 --> 01:18:43.840 Yeah, the energy is really infectious. 01:18:44.159 --> 01:18:49.039 So uh as we stand at the moment, I'm the second oldest person in our business and I'm 43. 01:18:49.279 --> 01:18:50.960 The the average age is under 30. 01:18:51.199 --> 01:18:51.760 Yeah, yeah. 01:18:52.000 --> 01:18:53.520 Um sort of what you have to have. 01:18:53.760 --> 01:18:55.600 Uh yeah, CLA is not exactly. 01:18:56.000 --> 01:19:02.239 I said that if I I should I hope that when I finish being president, I will be the oldest person in the organization. 01:19:02.960 --> 01:19:03.920 Not member though. 01:19:04.159 --> 01:19:05.520 Not member though, no. 01:19:06.079 --> 01:19:09.439 As in oldest person within the executive and non-executive. 01:19:09.920 --> 01:19:14.880 How how um how much do you think experience is valuable for your role? 01:19:15.600 --> 01:19:16.720 Mine in particular. 01:19:16.960 --> 01:19:20.560 Yeah, i.e., could you say, let's have a 25-year-old president? 01:19:20.960 --> 01:19:22.319 Well, Joe's annoyingly young. 01:19:22.560 --> 01:19:28.960 Joe yeah, Joe, he's been, I don't know, it's a picture of Dorian Gray, he's got a mirror in the somewhere in the middle of the room. 01:19:30.800 --> 01:19:37.199 He started when he was under 40, but he uh I don't know because the world is changing so quickly and so rapidly. 01:19:37.279 --> 01:19:44.319 And there are, I've got massive blind spots in terms of, I don't know, I I know a bit about AI, but not a huge amount. 01:19:44.479 --> 01:19:51.039 I know a bit about uh some of the things that are coming down the line um uh in terms of legislation and rules. 01:19:51.199 --> 01:20:02.319 But so you keeping on top of that is as much of a job as having the experience to know, you know, having the perspective on how to deal with all of those things. 01:20:02.560 --> 01:20:08.720 I think it would be unlikely that somebody age 25 could do the job, but definitely people in their 40s could easily do the job. 01:20:08.960 --> 01:20:11.760 And I think the the there's experience in experience. 01:20:11.920 --> 01:20:18.560 For me, the older I get, the clearer I am that I don't know everything rather than I that I do. 01:20:18.880 --> 01:20:25.520 And although I absolutely love

chatting to young people, they're they're much more sure they do know everything. 01:20:25.840 --> 01:20:28.479 I think that's a lot of the problems with policymakers, aren't you? 01:20:29.199 --> 01:20:29.840 Yeah, yeah. 01:20:30.319 --> 01:20:38.960 Um, although I'd uh you know, I the other thing I suppose as you get older is you feel that you're running out of time, so you do feel like you need to crack on. 01:20:39.840 --> 01:20:44.880 Um uh that's the one thing I would say, although plenty of our young members are cracking on with it. 01:20:45.039 --> 01:20:45.359 Yeah. 01:20:47.439 --> 01:20:59.359 I I asked the question about experience because um I think in the majority of roles, certainly speaking about a tech and a data business, experience is overvalued and overpriced. 01:20:59.840 --> 01:21:13.119 So actually, we've we've been able to have 20% more uh critical mass of resource in a team by recruiting uh an earlier in their career people, so really bright people who haven't done it yet but have the skill set to be able to do it. 01:21:13.279 --> 01:21:17.840 But every so often I catch myself with with a moment, it's like it's probably useful at experience. 01:21:17.920 --> 01:21:28.720 So, for example, managing the response to the wildfires on the neighbouring estate, you wouldn't want someone who hadn't seen or done that to be the decision maker in that situation because it helps to have been there before. 01:21:29.199 --> 01:21:35.760 The the amazing thing about the CLA is you have just got this these 26,000 people with experience. 01:21:36.079 --> 01:21:38.960 So it's not actually leader against the city. 01:21:39.359 --> 01:21:54.880 Honestly, that you know, I went up onto the moors with um one of our owners, uh, you know, that owns a moor up um in North Yorkshire, and he had been basically looking at wildfire for 40 years. 01:21:55.119 --> 01:21:59.920 Uh, there wasn't an awful lot that he didn't know about wildfire. 01:22:00.000 --> 01:22:04.640 Um, that depth of experience is unlikely to be repeated in politics. 01:22:05.039 --> 01:22:06.399 You literally have to. 01:22:06.640 --> 01:22:19.039 Whenever you guys go anywhere now, you've got to wear a dictaphone or a mic because if you capture everything, you're gonna be able to those people that are in their 80s and 90s and things like that, once that knowledge is lost, it's lost. 01:22:19.119 --> 01:22:24.239 Yeah, however, if you capture that, all that can be just fed into the CLA's AI chatbot. 01:22:24.399 --> 01:22:29.520 That in the future you can go back and the questions you heard on that hill, someone in 30 years can hear back again. 01:22:29.600 --> 01:22:29.760 Yeah. 01:22:30.079 --> 01:22:31.279 I mean, tell them you're doing it, of course. 01:22:31.359 --> 01:22:33.520 Like, you know, we'd love to hear your stories and things like that. 01:22:33.840 --> 01:22:36.880 Or we won't listen to it for five years except for to process it, you know. 01:22:37.520 --> 01:22:39.279 Exactly, whatever makes people comfortable with it. 01:22:39.359 --> 01:22:44.640 But you are getting data that no, that will be an incredibly valuable resource because you can't simulate that data. 01:22:44.720 --> 01:22:44.880 Yeah. 01:22:45.439 --> 01:22:47.359 Um we should spin out that. 01:22:47.680 --> 01:22:59.199 There there is uh that but we do have so unlike your business, um, you know, if if something new crops up, one of the our regional team will have to talk to someone who's already dealt with that. 01:22:59.359 --> 01:23:05.199 So within two phone calls, we can be talking to someone who's experienced, however niche the problem is. 01:23:05.439 --> 01:23:11.840 So I agree with you that experience is overvalued in in our we could all be. 01:23:12.399 --> 01:23:20.720 I think I've got to the point whereby I think it's both overvalued and undervalued, depending on the as you were speaking about the everythingism and and the duality of what we're dealing with. 01:23:20.880 --> 01:23:24.880 I remembered in um so my second book was published this summer. 01:23:24.960 --> 01:23:28.560 In my first, there was a chapter that's called Contradictions and Compromises. 01:23:28.640 --> 01:23:32.720 And it's a thing the environment sector for so long had refused to accept existed. 01:23:32.880 --> 01:23:33.600 It was always binary. 01:23:33.840 --> 01:23:35.279 Oh no, no, it's black or it's white. 01:23:35.359 --> 01:23:39.920 Yeah, it's never either, it's always shades of grey and occasionally shades of green. 01:23:40.079 --> 01:23:44.560 And I think um I I felt really conscious that so we don't do control burning. 01:23:45.039 --> 01:23:50.479 I think I'd gone, I might have gone too much to a principal moral point on that. 01:23:51.039 --> 01:23:54.720 So we've just commissioned another study to go back and look and go, okay, let's test this. 01:23:54.880 --> 01:23:56.960 And you mentioned about North America. 01:23:57.119 --> 01:24:08.960 I was actually at an event at Salesforce Tower in in April with the US Forestry Association, and they had all their new robotic technological companies who are coming in to solve wildfire risks. 01:24:09.279 --> 01:24:17.359 Now, they weren't talking about Moorland, they were talking old growth abandoned woodlands, so standing timber rather than heather and things like that. 01:24:17.520 --> 01:24:27.279 But they literally have big robotic uh called burn bots that go in and have controlled areas under this, and the machine itself has firefighting apparatus on it if it gets out of hand and things. 01:24:27.439 --> 01:24:33.119 But these things are orders of magnitude bigger than we're like hundreds of thousands of acres that that get out of hand. 01:24:33.279 --> 01:24:37.680 So it did make me think we need to look at this again, and our team are literally revisiting as we speak. 01:24:37.920 --> 01:24:38.479 Yeah. 01:24:38.800 --> 01:24:58.880 Yeah, and basically what you just said is it's A,

back to the everythingism, and B, um, you know, in my business, for example, uh, one of the best conversations I had really early on was about the 80% rule, which is you know, just get to 80% certainty and then take a step forward and then see how it goes, rather than trying to get to a hundred percent certainty. 01:24:59.039 --> 01:25:01.439 So you heard the one-way or two-way door description. 01:25:01.600 --> 01:25:02.880 No, so it comes from Amazon. 01:25:02.960 --> 01:25:06.560 Jeff Bezos' thing is um lots of decisions are two-way doors. 01:25:06.640 --> 01:25:08.560 You can go, yes, actually, I've changed my mind and go back. 01:25:08.640 --> 01:25:10.640 So your mediation centre was a two-way door. 01:25:10.800 --> 01:25:15.119 However, um, the 30 million pound bottling facility, that's a one-way door. 01:25:15.439 --> 01:25:17.279 Once you've walked through it, you're not coming back through again. 01:25:17.600 --> 01:25:19.920 So it's deciding if it's a two-way door, let's try it. 01:25:20.000 --> 01:25:22.800 If it's a one, let's make sure we've given it appropriate thought. 01:25:23.439 --> 01:25:24.000 Yeah. 01:25:24.319 --> 01:25:24.640 No. 01:25:24.880 --> 01:25:31.760 Um now I think the only thing I would say about experience is that what do they say? 01:25:31.920 --> 01:25:34.000 Nostalgia is a seductive liar. 01:25:34.159 --> 01:25:42.720 Um, you know, you have to be really, really careful that your memory doesn't trick you into believing something it was at. 01:25:42.960 --> 01:25:47.039 I mean, I only mention this because I was I did, I think I sent it to you. 01:25:47.119 --> 01:26:06.319 I I'm I'm fascinated at the moment with Andy Burnham's idea that that they that prior to Thatcherism that there was some sort of golden period of political stability, uh, and that that that somehow Thatcher and ruined it all. 01:26:06.560 --> 01:26:16.960 And I don't, I mean, I was quite young, but I don't remember coming back from primary school uh when we were sitting around with candles thinking this is a really good way to live. 01:26:17.279 --> 01:26:19.279 Did he just have a nice summer holiday or something? 01:26:19.680 --> 01:26:20.800 Was he even around then? 01:26:20.960 --> 01:26:23.039 Um I don't, you know, he was, he's my age. 01:26:23.199 --> 01:26:26.880 So he was around, but I don't I think that you have to be really careful. 01:26:27.119 --> 01:26:32.640 Either way, I mean I I think people eulogising about uh Thatcherism is probably a dangerous thing as well. 01:26:32.800 --> 01:26:38.000 But but I don't, but I think you just have to be really careful that you don't view things through race station. 01:26:38.479 --> 01:26:42.239 Um have you done any reading or or research on memory itself? 01:26:42.640 --> 01:26:45.520 No, I have actually most of mine's going. 01:26:45.680 --> 01:26:52.000 So some what what are actual accurate memories are so low. 01:26:52.560 --> 01:26:58.319 One study, I think it was something like four percent of what we think we remember would be represented as factually accurate. 01:26:58.479 --> 01:27:05.119 So it's really rare that the things we would hold confidently as a memory, even if you've got an excellent memory, you don't. 01:27:05.279 --> 01:27:05.840 You really don't. 01:27:06.560 --> 01:27:13.840 Particularly, I think when you when it once you've told the story, how you told the story becomes more relevant than what actually is. 01:27:14.159 --> 01:27:14.560 Yeah, exactly. 01:27:14.880 --> 01:27:15.920 I catch myself from that. 01:27:16.640 --> 01:27:19.279 And you block out so much of the bad stuff. 01:27:19.520 --> 01:27:31.359 You know, we were talking about football in the 1970s and 1980s, I don't really remember it in the 1970s, but certainly in the 1980s, going to a football ground was pretty scary stuff as a as a teenager. 01:27:31.439 --> 01:27:43.359 And and it I I don't anyone that eulogizes about how amazing it was, and we know we need to go back to something before, you know, you just have to check yourself occasionally because it's not always how it was. 01:27:43.680 --> 01:27:45.359 What a rosy thing to finish on. 01:27:45.439 --> 01:27:48.239 We are in a much better spot than they were in the 70s or 80s. 01:27:50.800 --> 01:27:52.079 Generally, I hope. 01:27:52.479 --> 01:27:54.640 I mean, uh, you know, it would it would, yeah. 01:27:54.720 --> 01:27:59.119 I I I I think that there's an awful lot to be very, very happy about. 01:27:59.359 --> 01:27:59.520 Yeah. 01:27:59.600 --> 01:27:59.760 Yeah. 01:28:00.479 --> 01:28:06.479 Um what is the most surprising thing about your role that you didn't expect when you took it on? 01:28:13.439 --> 01:28:19.439 I knew about this question coming and there was a there's a word in Cumbrian, uh flotch. 01:28:19.520 --> 01:28:21.199 I don't know if you know the word flotch. 01:28:21.279 --> 01:28:24.880 It's to overtly flatter or charm, right? 01:28:25.199 --> 01:28:47.520 And I'm can I'm aware that this might be pushing me into the realms of being a flotch, but uh I am absolutely staggered by the variety and you know just bravery as I talked about and and hunger and eagerness of our members to try and run profitable, sustainable businesses in the countryside. 01:28:47.600 --> 01:28:56.079 I mean, I the just the breadth and the and just the sheer variety of stuff that I get to see is an you know is a massive privilege. 01:28:56.159 --> 01:28:58.319 It's a massive uh thing for me. 01:28:58.479 --> 01:29:01.439 So that was something that I wasn't expecting. 01:29:01.680 --> 01:29:05.920 Uh and without you know labouring it too much, it is it's a real honour. 01:29:06.000 --> 01:29:07.680 It's a it's a it's a real privilege. 01:29:07.840 --> 01:29:11.199 Um, I suppose I didn't really know about politics that much. 01:29:11.279 --> 01:29:15.359 I it it is a frustrating business, but it must be frustrating for the people doing it. 01:29:15.439 --> 01:29:21.920 I I mean we're we're just

lobbying, but um uh and that I think is is par for the course. 01:29:22.000 --> 01:29:30.239 But but yeah, no, I just think it uh it's a massive honour to see what people are able to do with with their businesses because it it it's it's awe-inspiring. 01:29:30.560 --> 01:29:34.640 And they give us hope because they're all so much more impressive than you know. 01:29:34.880 --> 01:29:35.600 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 01:29:35.760 --> 01:29:37.920 We just sit there and bathe in their glory. 01:29:38.079 --> 01:29:38.479 Yeah, exactly. 01:29:39.279 --> 01:29:41.520 I don't know, I think you're both pretty damn impressive. 01:29:41.680 --> 01:29:47.199 Um, what is the one thing about Gavin's leadership that you will make sure you emulate? 01:29:47.279 --> 01:29:49.600 And then what's the one thing you do differently? 01:29:53.600 --> 01:30:02.800 Um I would say that um I'm completely comfortable with the direction Gavin's taking CLA. 01:30:02.960 --> 01:30:15.840 In fact, when I mean it's quite a big deal to take on this role in terms of your own life and your initial plans, which had nothing to do with this, um, and seeing the direction Gavin was heading and also Joe behind him. 01:30:16.000 --> 01:30:22.560 Having the amazing thing about the CLA is uh there's not a kind of competitive moment regularly. 01:30:22.880 --> 01:30:30.000 Um, it's it's a it's a flow, and and I could see the direction that Gavin was taking it, and that Joe was likely to come in behind. 01:30:30.079 --> 01:30:39.680 And I feel exactly the same about using all that energy from the CLA members to just make it all even better. 01:30:39.840 --> 01:30:45.439 Um, and so yeah, I'm I'm just hoping to come in behind and kind of carry on pushing in that direction. 01:30:45.680 --> 01:30:54.239 Um, and yeah, I've got to learn a lot, a lot about farming, um, so I can so I can be as good as Gavin in those ways. 01:30:54.399 --> 01:30:56.319 And we just have our different strengths. 01:30:56.479 --> 01:30:59.600 So yeah, no nothing, no notes at this stage, Gav. 01:30:59.920 --> 01:31:02.720 No successful performance review. 01:31:02.960 --> 01:31:05.439 Um, so I I finish every podcast the same way. 01:31:05.520 --> 01:31:08.800 Uh is there one question I haven't asked you you wish I had? 01:31:11.039 --> 01:31:12.640 There's probably lots of questions as well. 01:31:13.680 --> 01:31:18.479 I I no, um gosh, that's a really, really difficult question. 01:31:18.640 --> 01:31:20.479 Um we should have known it was coming, as well as. 01:31:21.359 --> 01:31:24.319 So they have me on the episode on the hundredth episode. 01:31:24.399 --> 01:31:24.479 Yeah. 01:31:24.720 --> 01:31:27.600 And I forgot it was coming when they asked me the same question. 01:31:28.640 --> 01:31:33.520 Um, I think what what do we what do you hope? 01:31:33.680 --> 01:31:35.520 What what gosh? 01:31:36.880 --> 01:31:41.199 What do I hope permitted development before we answer the rest of the post, please? 01:31:41.680 --> 01:32:05.439 There's a lot, a lot of things that um yeah, I mean there were there were some aims and objectives when I started this role that I hope, you know, we've made very clear during the podcast about what those, you know, collectively, what those aims and objectives are, because it, you know, it's not just my individual aims, aims and objectives, they align with the rest of the organization. 01:32:05.600 --> 01:32:10.000 Um, otherwise it would be, you know, it'd be incredibly difficult to do this job. 01:32:10.239 --> 01:32:18.000 But um there isn't anything I think that we that we've missed talking about that I feel that we've that we should have covered. 01:32:18.239 --> 01:32:18.560 No. 01:32:18.960 --> 01:32:20.399 Told you the time has fly by. 01:32:20.560 --> 01:32:21.680 Um, appreciate you both. 01:32:21.760 --> 01:32:22.880 You've been astonishing. 01:32:22.960 --> 01:32:26.960 I I love you talked about the next generation giving you hope. 01:32:27.119 --> 01:32:32.880 I think your view of the rural economy, and if some of the things you talked about come to fruition, it should give us all hope. 01:32:32.960 --> 01:32:33.600 So thank you. 01:32:33.680 --> 01:32:34.560 I really appreciate you coming in. 01:32:35.279 --> 01:32:35.439 Thanks. 01:32:36.560 --> 01:32:36.960 Yeah.