התמלול המלא של How to Live Fully When Chronic Pain Is Still Part of Your Life with Sandi Magder

00:04:27.151 Were you very active? 00:04:27.182 --> 00:04:27.581 Like- 00:04:28.732 --> 00:04:29.351 Yeah. 00:04:29.401 --> 00:04:30.732 I wasn't a strong kid. 00:04:30.732 --> 00:04:36.701 I was, uh, I was tiny, but I played baseball, I was figure skating, I was horseback riding, I was dancing. 00:04:37.211 --> 00:04:40.151 Yeah, I was a, I was a pretty active child, so that was... 00:04:40.161 --> 00:04:47.101 I think I had been water-skiing the summer before, so actually the first joint that ever really swelled up was my elbow, and they first told me it was bursitis from the water-skiing. 00:04:47.112 --> 00:04:47.122 Mm. 00:04:48.012 --> 00:04:51.661 And then the, everything else kind of just went haywire probably within a couple months. 00:04:52.661 --> 00:04:54.021 Were you able to function? 00:04:54.021 --> 00:04:57.951 were you in college at the time that all- I was- this other stuff was going on and? 00:04:58.322 --> 00:04:59.482 I was still in high school. 00:04:59.541 --> 00:05:04.252 Um, I grew up in Canada, and in Ontario at the time we had five years of high school in order to go to university. 00:05:04.291 --> 00:05:10.072 So I was- Oh just starting my last year of high school, which was very high-stress. 00:05:10.081 --> 00:05:26.482 And I can tell you looking back, and again, we'll maybe get into some of the work that I do now, I was a, I was a perfectionist kid to the, like, you know, highest degree, starting from when I was two,'cause I kinda learned that, like, you know, when you do things and people praise you, that becomes your identity. 00:05:26.632 --> 00:05:32.331 And so every exam, every assignment, everything was a potential point of failure. 00:05:33.232 --> 00:05:37.862 And this, the biggest flare-up that I had when I was really diagnosed with the arthritis was right before exams. 00:05:38.822 --> 00:05:39.062 Mm. 00:05:39.101 --> 00:05:41.562 And that sort of became a pattern throughout my life. 00:05:41.562 --> 00:05:45.682 I would notice that things would get significantly worse around times of high stress. 00:05:46.682 --> 00:05:54.781 It sounds like what you were saying before too is, like, people trying to push things on you and you found a way out of it by being ill. 00:05:55.172 --> 00:05:57.922 Yes, and this is something that I talk about now. 00:05:58.461 --> 00:06:11.031 I, and I, I didn't understand it at the time, but when you're that type of child, a perfectionist, and, and the research, and we'll talk about this too, that it, people, like, with my type of personality are susceptible to chronic pain because of all the pressure they put on theirselves. 00:06:11.041 --> 00:06:19.262 My mother used to say to me,"You're so sensitive to criticism." And I was like,"I am because I walk around with 50 people in my head telling me I'm not good enough." And they're all me, right? 00:06:19.461 --> 00:06:20.651 They're all versions of me. 00:06:20.872 --> 00:06:21.882 But so there's no space. 00:06:21.882 --> 00:06:23.872 I'm at max capacity for criticism. 00:06:23.901 --> 00:06:36.762 And so something, it was kind of a realization I had a couple years ago, when you're sick, especially if you're diagnosed with a big illness, it's kind of the only time people give you a pass and therefore you can give yourself a pass. 00:06:37.362 --> 00:06:42.192 Even now, if you get, like, a flu or something like that, you ki- people are just like,"Okay, I understand you're really sick. 00:06:42.641 --> 00:06:44.851 You know, you can have a couple days to relax." Yeah. 00:06:45.451 --> 00:06:47.791 And so I think that there was something in me that, like... 00:06:47.791 --> 00:06:56.872 A- and again, we go talk about all these smaller illnesses I had throughout my life and it's like those weren't big enough to get my attention to cause me to stop. 00:06:56.882 --> 00:06:56.891 Mm. 00:06:57.682 --> 00:06:59.052 So this was, like, the big one. 00:06:59.401 --> 00:07:09.872 And, you know, I've listened to your podcast and I've talked to other people with chronic conditions, and you go through a lot of trying to figure out what it is, and I had that experience when I was 12 and I had this mystery illness. 00:07:10.512 --> 00:07:22.372 So the arthritis diagnosis, it's kind of a blessing and a curse because you're given a name of something that somebody can identify and it makes it a real thing, but then it can also become your identity. 00:07:23.651 --> 00:07:32.922 And, and that s- can also shape what happens with chronic pain and sort of how your body responds to knowing, and I'm air quoting,"knowing" that you have a condition. 00:07:33.471 --> 00:07:39.781 When you were diagnosed with the arthritis and given the injections, did you have a lot of relief with that? 00:07:39.791 --> 00:07:41.262 Or how did that progress? 00:07:41.942 --> 00:07:42.492 Not really. 00:07:42.651 --> 00:07:51.132 I mean, I was given various medications that would work for a little bit, and then they would stop working, and then they would give me either a higher dose or something different. 00:07:51.141 --> 00:07:58.031 When I was in university, I was getting, um, injections of this drug called methotrexate, which is a cancer drug effectively. 00:07:58.041 --> 00:08:07.401 And all of these are designed to, to slow down your immune system because the theory of, of rheumatoid arthritis and other autoimmune diseases that your body is in some way attacking itself. 00:08:07.992 --> 00:08:15.201 And so, you know, the, the, the, the cure, but the, the way to alleviate symptoms is to kind of calm that down. 00:08:15.312 --> 00:08:21.692 And so you're given a lot of immune-suppressing drugs, which obviously will lead to other problems, and it did for me because I would get sick much more easily. 00:08:23.091 --> 00:08:23.471 So yeah. 00:08:23.622 --> 00:08:25.752 So basically knock down your immune system. 00:08:25.932 --> 00:08:26.822 Yeah, shut it down. 00:08:27.331 --> 00:08:38.692 Like, my- Yeah I

finished my last year, my l- um, the end of my first year of university in the hospital because I'd gotten strep throat, and somehow, I don't know, something happened and my throat closed up. 00:08:39.101 --> 00:08:40.142 Couldn't swallow, couldn't... 00:08:40.201 --> 00:08:40.892 It was horrible. 00:08:41.272 --> 00:08:48.822 So I was in the hospital for a week on IV fluids because I couldn't consume any- anything, and that was because my immune system was just a wreck. 00:08:49.822 --> 00:08:50.922 How did you progress from there? 00:08:50.922 --> 00:08:58.402 Did you then start trying other modalities or try to do more, like, holistic naturopathic things, or 00:08:59.501 --> 00:09:11.131 Yeah, that actually started And, and to my parents' credit, you know, when, when First of all, the arthritis diagnosis, I remember even at 18 with no internet, when they told me my body was attacking itself for no reason, I thought that that was insane. 00:09:11.552 --> 00:09:13.912 I w- you know, I, that's just, that doesn't make any sense to me. 00:09:13.912 --> 00:09:22.662 And I would go to the rheumatologist's office and I'd look around, and everybody would be miserable and decrepit, and I knew in that moment that they weren't helping anybody. 00:09:22.741 --> 00:09:25.601 You know, they were doing, there was treatments, but they weren't helping anybody. 00:09:25.652 --> 00:09:29.581 And so my parents had started to look for sort of all sorts of different things. 00:09:29.591 --> 00:09:32.802 So my father's a dentist, so he had more of a scientific approach. 00:09:32.802 --> 00:09:34.782 He was looking at things like antibiotics. 00:09:34.782 --> 00:09:38.331 There was a theory that arthritis was a bacteria and it could be treated with antibiotics. 00:09:38.631 --> 00:09:51.601 My mother, I don't know where she found some of these people, but I went to one lady who worked with crystals, and she would test different substances against, I think it's, like, muscle, something where you hold a bag of crystal- certain crystals, and then she pushes on your arm. 00:09:51.611 --> 00:09:52.662 If that helps, that's good for you. 00:09:52.662 --> 00:09:52.912 I don't know. 00:09:53.652 --> 00:09:54.322 And then the, the- 00:09:54.322 --> 00:09:55.101 Muscle testing. 00:09:55.192 --> 00:09:55.522 Yes. 00:09:55.532 --> 00:09:55.692 Yeah. 00:09:55.751 --> 00:10:00.851 And so then the weirdest one, again, I don't know who recom- We lived in a small town, so there were not that many people around. 00:10:01.942 --> 00:10:03.422 My mother took me to this woman. 00:10:03.422 --> 00:10:04.231 We get to her house. 00:10:04.231 --> 00:10:05.471 I didn't have any background. 00:10:06.162 --> 00:10:06.711 We walk in. 00:10:06.711 --> 00:10:09.241 She's like a 5'0", 80-year-old woman. 00:10:09.792 --> 00:10:15.011 And so her thing was that she channeled a pharaoh, an Egyptian, ancient Egyptian pharaoh. 00:10:16.402 --> 00:10:18.432 She took this deep breath- and drank some water.

00:10:18.652 --> 00:10:27.322 Her whole face changed, and then she had me get on a table, and she gave me this massage that was so strong and so intense, she could've been like a 250-pound linebacker. 00:10:28.221 --> 00:10:33.662 And she was speaking through it in this, uh, I don't even know how to describe it, but it was wild. 00:10:33.701 --> 00:10:39.081 And so from that, there's nothing too weird that I won't try, because how do you top that? 00:10:39.081 --> 00:10:39.701 But that happened. 00:10:39.741 --> 00:10:42.652 And I don't, I mean, I don't know that I felt any different after. 00:10:42.652 --> 00:10:44.721 I don't, I think she, I don't know if she was, it was like an exorcism. 00:10:44.741 --> 00:10:47.971 I don't know what was I, I don't remember exactly what was happening. 00:10:48.182 --> 00:10:50.432 But it was an old lady who channeled a pharaoh. 00:10:50.741 --> 00:10:51.971 That was the gist of it. 00:10:51.981 --> 00:11:04.831 So I had s- so from there, and I had gone to a chiropractor to help with the issues from falling off the horse, and we saw naturopaths and osteopaths, so there was always an alternative medicine theme to it, you know? 00:11:04.831 --> 00:11:12.432 And so, and I think I've always carried that with me because of the fact that I just don't understand this, your body's attacking itself for no reason. 00:11:13.072 --> 00:11:17.142 So I've always been on the search for different things, whatever they might be. 00:11:18.142 --> 00:11:18.751 Yeah. 00:11:18.881 --> 00:11:31.471 I've seen a lot of that myself, especially going to the pain doctor, and you're not really fixing anything, and that I'm just, like, a pin cushion or, like, an experiment or, you know. 00:11:31.501 --> 00:11:36.902 Yeah yeah, none of that's really, addressing what's really going on. 00:11:36.912 --> 00:11:36.932 Yeah. 00:11:37.282 --> 00:11:41.351 And your body's still going haywire, and they're just trying to put Band-Aids on it. 00:11:42.131 --> 00:11:42.511 Yeah. 00:11:42.562 --> 00:11:45.881 But I feel like, and I've, I've gone down this rabbit hole before. 00:11:45.881 --> 00:11:53.211 I found functional medicine, which I thought was really cool when I heard about it because it uses, you know, scientific lab tests like you would get. 00:11:53.231 --> 00:11:58.091 It, it takes them, it looks at them from a different perspective, and it's root cause based. 00:11:58.091 --> 00:12:02.481 So that was exciting when I heard about it, and I did all the tests. 00:12:02.511 --> 00:12:03.761 I did the gut stuff. 00:12:03.761 --> 00:12:08.971 I did all the blood te- I mean, I did, like, I spent You know, none of it's covered by insurance, so I did all of the testing. 00:12:08.971 --> 00:12:09.001 Mm. 00:12:09.001 --> 00:12:10.211 I did the food testing. 00:12:11.292 --> 00:12:19.881 And I gotta say, like, I, there were things that were discovered, but nothing that I was ever No supplement or thing that I was given made a difference. 00:12:20.951 --> 00:12:27.942 So even if there's something that could be diagnosed, you know, from a lab work perspective, nothing fixed it. 00:12:28.081 --> 00:12:28.101 Yeah. 00:12:28.971 --> 00:12:39.812 And so that's kind of when I changed my perspective, and it's, it's a newer perspective, but it's, I, I've, I've had to really shift the way I look at it because there doesn't seem to be, like, this easy fix. 00:12:40.812 --> 00:12:48.471 Yeah, some kind of modality that you can adopt the prescription of do X, Y, Z and then you're fine. 00:12:48.792 --> 00:12:49.001 Yeah. 00:12:49.001 --> 00:12:49.121 Right? 00:12:49.131 --> 00:12:49.731 Exactly. 00:12:49.831 --> 00:12:52.861 Yeah, I didn't have much luck with functional medicine. 00:12:53.392 --> 00:13:02.562 I did the, the stool tests and the food allergy tests and all of that, and I took the probiotics and everything that they gave me. 00:13:02.562 --> 00:13:08.131 Granted, It's probably been, like, 15 years since I've done it, so maybe they've gotten a lot better. 00:13:08.701 --> 00:13:12.011 But yeah, I didn't have much luck with that either. 00:13:12.312 --> 00:13:17.402 Yeah, and- You know, when you have a chronic condition, you're excited if something sounds like it makes sense. 00:13:17.711 --> 00:13:27.081 And so I would go through this phase of just, you know, I- hopelessly optimistic, I guess, because you have to believe something might work. 00:13:27.461 --> 00:13:33.721 But also I was Sorry, cautiously optimistic because, you know, it's like nothing had worked, but I wanna believe something will. 00:13:33.721 --> 00:13:42.381 And things made sense, but then I was always sort of chasing this state of health and pushing everything away thinking maybe one day when I feel better. 00:13:42.892 --> 00:13:46.001 You know, and I know you've dealt with chronic pain and it's very isolating. 00:13:46.081 --> 00:14:00.072 And it's like I don't, can't talk about it all the time, but it, it holds me back from making plans because I worry I'm not gonna feel good on that day and I'm gonna bring everybody down, or it's gonna be too much walking, or I'm gonna be out of the house and I'm not gonna have my special foods and all of those things. 00:14:00.072 --> 00:14:06.101 So it really affects your life, but it becomes almost a job, especially when you're taking supplements or you're eating certain foods. 00:14:06.101 --> 00:14:08.162 It's literally a full-time job. 00:14:08.851 --> 00:14:09.341 Yeah. 00:14:10.682 --> 00:14:22.381 now I look at it more of like how much am I perpetuating it because I'm so afraid of the Like, if I make this choice, am I gonna feel bad? 00:14:22.631 --> 00:14:24.611 If I do this, am I Is it gonna help? 00:14:24.631 --> 00:14:25.402 Is it gonna hurt? 00:14:25.481 --> 00:14:25.942 You know? 00:14:25.942 --> 00:14:30.607 So it's almost like everything becomes more like- Is this gonna hurt me? 00:14:31.177 --> 00:14:31.288 Yeah. 00:14:31.288 --> 00:14:31.847 You know?

00:14:32.018 --> 00:14:34.847 What else can I do to avoid the pain, you know? 00:14:35.217 --> 00:14:39.357 Instead of enjoying your life and living, without that, filter. 00:14:39.707 --> 00:14:40.057 Yeah. 00:14:40.227 --> 00:14:45.518 And that's the fear-based response that makes the pain worse, because it puts you in a state of fight or flight. 00:14:45.538 --> 00:14:50.197 And so where I'm at now, and I, I still have pain. 00:14:50.268 --> 00:14:52.248 Like, we're not, I'm not at the stage where I'm like, I, you know... 00:14:52.288 --> 00:14:54.418 I hear people, I listen to stories all the time of they're pain-free. 00:14:54.447 --> 00:14:55.518 I'm not at that stage. 00:14:55.548 --> 00:15:09.587 But what I've really fallen into a rabbit hole on is mind-body work, and understanding that the brain is neuroplastic and that pain doesn't actually originate from parts of the body. 00:15:09.668 --> 00:15:10.927 It's a response in the brain. 00:15:11.898 --> 00:15:17.697 And so I can go into a little bit about sort of the theory of it and the brain science, but the short story is, is that... 00:15:17.727 --> 00:15:25.658 And, and it makes sense now that I've s- kind of explained to you a lot of the times where I actually had these ailments, even going back to when I was two. 00:15:25.658 --> 00:15:35.908 But it's almost like something is going on, and your brain decides that it's easier to feel the pain in your body than it is to feel the emotions, or it just doesn't have anywhere to put it. 00:15:37.038 --> 00:15:44.508 And so then the pain is almost like a signal to you that something is wrong, but not necessarily wrong in the context of, like, you broke your leg and it hurts. 00:15:44.518 --> 00:15:44.548 Uh-huh. 00:15:45.467 --> 00:15:48.638 It's, it's a signal to, to look at something else in your life. 00:15:48.788 --> 00:15:53.238 And so again, you know, with the arthritis, like, it was, it stopped me, literally. 00:15:53.248 --> 00:15:57.227 It was my body's and brain's way of colluding to get me to take a break. 00:15:58.197 --> 00:16:03.758 And so I'm sort of down that track now, and a lot of the things that you said, like, that's really in line with that type of a work. 00:16:03.788 --> 00:16:09.197 Because when you have a chronic condition and you feel it, and you catastrop- I heard you... 00:16:09.197 --> 00:16:10.038 That's my favorite word. 00:16:10.197 --> 00:16:11.307 I heard you say it in another podcast. 00:16:11.707 --> 00:16:26.947 I love the word catastrophizing because it, it's, it's so relevant, because what happens is, like, you wake up and you're in pain, and you think,"Oh my God, I have all this work to do today." And you freak out about it, and it makes it worse, because then you're literally telling your mind and body that you're sick. 00:16:27.077 --> 00:16:28.177 You're reminding it you're sick. 00:16:28.197 --> 00:16:34.727 You're, you're raising all the alarm bells, and that keeps you in this state of,"I'm a sick

person." Same thing with all these protocols. 00:16:34.727 --> 00:16:42.898 When you're spending all day taking the right supplements, eating the right foods, worrying about every single thing you do or don't do, that reminds you that you're sick. 00:16:43.817 --> 00:16:47.717 And so all of that just tells the brain that the pain belongs there. 00:16:48.717 --> 00:16:50.388 So is there a way out of that? 00:16:50.437 --> 00:16:55.498 Or have you figured out a modality or something n- not another modality- Yeah. 00:16:55.498 --> 00:16:59.738 Yeah but how do you stop going into that response? 00:17:00.268 --> 00:17:10.397 So I'm, I work with a few different, like I've been doing research on a few different programs, and so one of them is pain reprocessing therapy, and I can share some resources, but there's a good book by Alan Gordon. 00:17:10.407 --> 00:17:12.528 It's either called A Way, I think it's called The Way Out. 00:17:12.948 --> 00:17:19.268 And so pain reprocessing therapy is a lot of things, like when you feel the pain, you tell your body it's safe, right? 00:17:19.268 --> 00:17:21.698 Like if I, I, I've developed an issue with my ankle. 00:17:21.708 --> 00:17:23.877 It's probably in the last six months or a year, I can't remember the timeframe. 00:17:24.048 --> 00:17:28.778 But when I walk, it hurts, and so the natural reaction is to not walk. 00:17:29.587 --> 00:17:31.147 But nothing bad is happening. 00:17:31.167 --> 00:17:33.218 I'm not harming myself by walking, right? 00:17:33.218 --> 00:17:36.057 It's not like I have a broken ankle that I shouldn't be walking on. 00:17:36.077 --> 00:17:47.438 And so when that happens, there's a few things that you can do, either divert your attention to something else, acknowledge how nice it is outside, you know, not focus on the pain, or just remind yourself that you're safe. 00:17:48.577 --> 00:17:50.067 You know, little, like there's little things like that. 00:17:50.067 --> 00:18:03.407 And then the other one, so I do a lot of work, I'm actually, um, trained by her as well, but there's a woman named Nicole Sachs, and she worked with someone back in the day named John Sarno, and he's kind of like the godfather of this mind-body work. 00:18:03.657 --> 00:18:04.837 He's got a lot of great books. 00:18:04.857 --> 00:18:13.278 And so in her work, which comes a lot from him, a big component of is, is this like deep sort of stream of consciousness journaling. 00:18:14.038 --> 00:18:23.087 Because the theory is that your emotions kind of create this like reservoir, and when they get to a certain point, they overflow into this pain in the body. 00:18:23.097 --> 00:18:24.768 That's where like the alarm signal goes off. 00:18:25.298 --> 00:18:25.428 Mm. 00:18:25.428 --> 00:18:28.298 And so the journaling is designed to sort of just release it. 00:18:28.958 --> 00:18:31.847 And it's, it's kind of a thing where if you don't show anybody, you throw it out after you're done. 00:18:31.847 --> 00:18:33.837 It's, some of it's like really deep and intense. 00:18:33.847 --> 00:18:36.178 Some of it de- deals with inner child work and things like that. 00:18:36.178 --> 00:18:39.077 But that's, it's just about releasing some of the emotions. 00:18:39.468 --> 00:18:52.167 Now I'm not doing it consistently, but I've heard, I listen to her podcast and there's so many recovery stories of people that have every kind of weird symptom you could ever think of, and so many of them have been healed just by doing a lot of this work. 00:18:53.268 --> 00:18:54.087 Oh, interesting. 00:18:54.357 --> 00:18:54.607 Yeah. 00:18:54.607 --> 00:19:04.317 Is it like you quiet all the chatter and you get down deeper into like what you're really feeling and let it come out? 00:19:04.698 --> 00:19:06.387 Y- yes, you're kind of releasing it. 00:19:06.407 --> 00:19:12.907 'Cause sometimes, and there's been people, for example, that say,"Well, I'm not angry." Well, they might be repressing the anger, and they don't even know it. 00:19:12.907 --> 00:19:16.718 Like maybe when they were five they had a temper tantrum and someone said,"Don't act that way. 00:19:16.718 --> 00:19:22.198 It's not okay to be angry." And so they identify as someone who's a not angry person, but they're storing all of this anger. 00:19:22.198 --> 00:19:25.298 I mean, it's impossible to never have anger or frustration or things like that. 00:19:26.018 --> 00:19:30.567 So it's just about like excavating the emotions, and it could really be, it could be anything. 00:19:31.567 --> 00:19:32.298 Interesting. 00:19:33.298 --> 00:19:40.784 So you've had the chronic illness and the conditions, and now you're getting into this work that's helping, disrupt the patterns. 00:19:41.513 --> 00:19:44.723 Where are you right now with everything? 00:19:45.693 --> 00:19:48.983 It depends on the day too, because stress is still a trigger for me. 00:19:48.983 --> 00:19:51.844 And so, like, I have a full-time job, and that can be stressful. 00:19:51.864 --> 00:19:56.574 And then I beat myself up for not doing, not working hard enough at healing myself. 00:19:56.973 --> 00:19:58.284 You know, it's that kind of loop. 00:19:58.753 --> 00:20:02.243 So I'm, I'm kind of in this middle stage, but what I'm... 00:20:02.374 --> 00:20:09.673 What I've finally started to do is stop chasing a solution and be okay with wherever I'm at now. 00:20:10.094 --> 00:20:17.094 And so the way I can put this is I'm not living a chronic pain-free life, but I've started living life. 00:20:17.763 --> 00:20:21.023 Like, for example, I, last weekend I went to two concerts back to back. 00:20:21.023 --> 00:20:21.523 Same band. 00:20:21.564 --> 00:20:22.933 I liked it so much the first time, I went back. 00:20:23.134 --> 00:20:23.894 By myself. 00:20:24.564 --> 00:20:27.023 And the second night I was like I w- the first day I was in a seat. 00:20:27.054 --> 00:20:27.864 I wasn't close enough. 00:20:27.864 --> 00:20:35.084 Second day I decided I needed to be in

the pit right in front of the stage, which meant I had to stand for, like, four or five hours, and I went through all the,"Oh my God, it's too many hours. 00:20:35.084 --> 00:20:35.963 How am I gonna drink water? 00:20:35.963 --> 00:20:36.634 I'm gonna pass out. 00:20:36.634 --> 00:20:38.503 Something's gonna..." And I wanted to go. 00:20:38.554 --> 00:20:38.913 So I went. 00:20:39.953 --> 00:20:49.443 And so that's, that's a new version of me, because up until very recently I would've let my fear of, of the outcome of whatever would happen hold me back. 00:20:50.114 --> 00:20:51.854 And so I'm trying to not be afraid. 00:20:51.854 --> 00:20:53.144 Like, not, I'm not gonna die, right? 00:20:53.144 --> 00:20:55.443 That's the you pick the worst-case scen- I'm not gonna die. 00:20:55.884 --> 00:20:57.683 And so, so what if I limp back to the car? 00:20:57.723 --> 00:20:59.503 I had a great time, you know? 00:20:59.503 --> 00:21:11.134 So I'm trying to sort of live in a space where I'm just accepting of wherever I am now is okay, and still believing that, you know, if I do the work, there will be a healing factor at play. 00:21:11.584 --> 00:21:14.983 But I can't, you know, just, like, stop life. 00:21:15.854 --> 00:21:16.233 Right. 00:21:16.243 --> 00:21:16.263 Yeah. 00:21:16.273 --> 00:21:20.364 So, you know, and I'm still, still, again, I still do all my things, and I, I meditate daily. 00:21:20.364 --> 00:21:31.173 Like, I do a lot of things that are beneficial for my nervous system so that I'm not in this hyper an- anxious, fight or flight state all the time,'cause that doesn't help anything, you know? 00:21:31.193 --> 00:21:32.034 And, like, little things. 00:21:32.034 --> 00:21:38.663 For example, years ago I was diagnosed with, I know, again, air quoting,"severe spinal stenosis," which is a, a back condition. 00:21:39.104 --> 00:21:41.294 And I didn't realize how bad it was until I... 00:21:41.483 --> 00:21:44.903 I was feeling like, um, it felt like I was doing a hamstring stretch when I was standing. 00:21:45.513 --> 00:21:46.324 It's the only way- Mm-hmm I can describe. 00:21:46.483 --> 00:21:47.913 So it was like a, it's a nerve thing. 00:21:47.913 --> 00:21:51.574 It's like your parts of your spine are compressed, so it's pushing on the nerves. 00:21:51.594 --> 00:21:59.463 And so I went to, I had an MRI, and then I went to a spinal surgeon, and when he came in the room, he looked at my chart, looked at me, walked back out. 00:21:59.824 --> 00:22:08.394 And then he came back in and he said,"Are you standing?" I said,"Yes." He said,"Well, the MRI that I looked at was, like, of an 85-year-old woman." But it was mine, so, and I was 35. 00:22:08.894 --> 00:22:10.723 So I had that in my head, you know? 00:22:10.723 --> 00:22:13.884 And then I had a chiropractor tell me my car with the bucket seats was no good. 00:22:13.884 --> 00:22:14.933 I needed a special backrest. 00:22:15.173 --> 00:22:21.304 So I lived for years and years with this diagnosis almost, like, playing in my mind in a visceral way. 00:22:21.304 --> 00:22:24.683 I could almost see things churning and compressing and, and... 00:22:24.683 --> 00:22:39.425 And then when I started getting into this mind-body work, I remembered that- One of the things that really s- struck me when I learned about this work is that, for example, two people can have the exact same MRI with the same deformities or abnormalities. 00:22:39.425 --> 00:22:41.145 One person has pain, the other doesn't. 00:22:41.635 --> 00:22:42.346 Exact same MRI. 00:22:43.066 --> 00:22:50.226 And so y- what you extrapolate from that is that that deformity or abnormality isn't necessarily the cause of the pain. 00:22:50.796 --> 00:22:53.476 The doctors will tell you it is,'cause that's all they know. 00:22:54.246 --> 00:23:01.615 And so that really clicked with me, and just that alone actually helped my back in a crazy way. 00:23:01.635 --> 00:23:08.425 And so now, for ex- you know, you hear that you're not supposed to bend over a certain way, and so when I would bend over, I had fear of creating more of an issue. 00:23:09.036 --> 00:23:14.415 And so now I'm aware of that, and before I go to pick something off the ground, I remind myself that I'm safe. 00:23:15.276 --> 00:23:16.986 It's that, just that little thing has changed it. 00:23:17.016 --> 00:23:23.786 Because other things, like I have The first joint that was ever a problem was my elbow, and it's, it's c- it's been really painful recently. 00:23:23.786 --> 00:23:29.145 And so before I move it, I'm aware of the second before where I anticipate it's gonna hurt me. 00:23:29.895 --> 00:23:33.266 And so I'm feeling the pain before I even move. 00:23:34.115 --> 00:23:46.145 And so I'm trying to stop doing that, stop anticipating the pain or being afraid to do things in an order, in order to, like, rewire my brain to believe that the pain is like, you know, one causes the other. 00:23:47.145 --> 00:23:47.506 Yeah. 00:23:47.506 --> 00:23:48.875 And it's super powerful. 00:23:49.486 --> 00:23:49.915 It is. 00:23:49.945 --> 00:24:02.455 And it's almost like a, a self-creating prophecy'Cause I've noticed the same thing, even working out or doing different movements that I know would cause me an issue. 00:24:02.476 --> 00:24:08.375 Now I'm like,"Okay, I can't think that or it's gonna continue to, perpetuate that." 00:24:08.846 --> 00:24:12.986 Yeah I know I'm not causing Again, this thing with my ankle and the walking, I know I'm not causing damage by walking on it. 00:24:13.395 --> 00:24:15.726 So that allows me to take the fear out of it. 00:24:15.836 --> 00:24:23.516 Because you associate, again, from, like breaking your leg or an acute condition, you associate the pain with stopping doing the thing that causes the pain. 00:24:24.165 --> 00:24:26.965 And again- Yeah that's true with a broken ankle. 00:24:27.145 --> 00:24:28.715 It's not true with chronic pain. 00:24:28.726 --> 00:24:28.746 Yeah. 00:24:29.476

--> 00:24:31.195 Because there isn't actually anything there to harm. 00:24:32.195 --> 00:24:33.165 That's so interesting. 00:24:34.266 --> 00:24:38.965 So you have a podcast that you do with a friend of yours? 00:24:39.286 --> 00:24:39.566 Yes. 00:24:39.576 --> 00:24:40.415 So I have a co-host. 00:24:40.415 --> 00:24:41.165 He's, I actually know him. 00:24:41.165 --> 00:24:48.306 He's a great friend of my sister's, and we were collaborating and deciding what to do, and both realized that we're both very into health and wellness for different reasons. 00:24:48.875 --> 00:24:57.756 And so yeah, about a year and a half ago we started conceptualizing the podcast, and we launched in, um, November. 00:24:58.746 --> 00:25:09.016 And for me, a lot of it is talking about my chronic pain journey and the mind/body work, and sort of all things health related through the lens of somebody who understands this mind/body work. 00:25:09.915 --> 00:25:16.455 Like, for example, we just had full body scans, like these full body MRIs, which, A, was horrible'cause I'm claustrophobic, but I got through it. 00:25:16.455 --> 00:25:22.665 But I, we, we recorded an episode about how we felt about doing it. 00:25:22.846 --> 00:25:31.726 And for me it was like I'm, you know, I have to be careful that if I see certain things, that I don't sort of cling to them and they become new issues that didn't actually exist. 00:25:31.776 --> 00:25:33.675 Now, obviously if there was cancer, that would be a whole other thing. 00:25:34.195 --> 00:25:42.036 But just, like, more things with my back or my neck or whatever it may be, I went into that knowing that I just had to be mindful of how I would normally interpret things. 00:25:43.036 --> 00:25:47.066 And so everything that I'm doing on my end with the podcast is sort of through that lens. 00:25:47.476 --> 00:25:50.215 But we talk a lot of general health, about general health topics. 00:25:50.215 --> 00:25:57.195 Like today we, we recorded an episode about colonoscopies, and we have a sleep doctor that came on and we're gonna release an episode about that soon. 00:25:57.195 --> 00:26:01.195 So we talk a lot of, you know, different health things, but it's also mostly from our experience. 00:26:01.836 --> 00:26:03.855 It's not just, like, general health information. 00:26:04.316 --> 00:26:04.786 It's really about- What's 00:26:04.846 --> 00:26:06.705 your co-host's background? 00:26:07.536 --> 00:26:10.685 Um, I mean, he's a male, so we have like a male and female perspective. 00:26:10.685 --> 00:26:11.756 He just has- Okay I mean, nothing... 00:26:11.806 --> 00:26:17.875 He doesn't, I mean, he has issues with his neck and he's had different health things, but it's not, not in the chronic pain realm. 00:26:17.875 --> 00:26:19.726 So we didn't connect over- Uh-huh something like that. 00:26:20.455 --> 00:26:23.625 We're just sort of- Yeah we each pick our own topics that we think are interesting. 00:26:24.496 --> 00:26:28.066 Which kinda

creates a cool dynamic,'cause things that he doesn't know anything about the mind/body work. 00:26:28.066 --> 00:26:36.965 So we had a mind/body coach that came on to explain a lot of the brain science, and he learned a lot of things, and he actually had a realization about some of his pain. 00:26:37.506 --> 00:26:39.215 Not during the podcast, but after. 00:26:39.316 --> 00:26:42.215 You know, some of the information resonated with him,'cause he's always talking about,"I need another MRI. 00:26:42.215 --> 00:26:46.185 I need another MRI." I'm like,"Okay." You know, only so much I can tell him. 00:26:46.955 --> 00:26:49.566 But so that, you know, that side has been really interesting. 00:26:50.566 --> 00:26:51.455 And what's it called? 00:26:51.705 --> 00:26:52.625 The Health Hunt. 00:26:53.125 --> 00:27:08.006 Is the podcast like an exploration more to you that y- it's something that you wanted to do to help others, but also to kind of explore different modalities and different, expert opinions and that kind of thing? 00:27:08.556 --> 00:27:16.145 It's a little bit of both, but for me it's more about having a voice to talk about,'cause cr- I, I mentioned this before, like, chronic pain is very isolating. 00:27:16.155 --> 00:27:16.165 Mm. 00:27:16.715 --> 00:27:21.816 And so many people have it, they don't even, you know, they've been given diagnoses, they don't even know what to do with it. 00:27:22.296 --> 00:27:29.296 And so I just wanted to be able to share my experiences and also have people understand that they're, they're not alone, you know? 00:27:29.296 --> 00:27:34.395 I think that, just the sense of community helps, knowing that you're not suffering by yourself. 00:27:34.405 --> 00:27:38.695 Because a lot of times you don't talk to your friends and family about it because it gets old. 00:27:38.816 --> 00:27:47.046 Like, I don't walk around talking about being in p- when someone says,"How are you?" I might be horrible, but I'm gonna say,"I'm fine,"'cause- who wants to go down the rabbit hole of, like, complaining? 00:27:47.115 --> 00:27:49.425 I don't want someone to say that to me, you know. 00:27:49.425 --> 00:27:51.715 And a close friend, fine, if something happened and they need to vent. 00:27:51.756 --> 00:27:53.776 But you, you know, you sort of just live with it. 00:27:54.445 --> 00:27:54.465 Yeah. 00:27:54.665 --> 00:28:04.016 And so I really, I wanted to share all the things that I've learned, and, you know, our central sort of message is, is kind of be your own advocate and do your own research, you know? 00:28:04.016 --> 00:28:06.665 Like, I could have just taken what the doctor said,"You have arthritis. 00:28:06.665 --> 00:28:09.286 Here's the drugs you have to be on forever," but I didn't. 00:28:09.905 --> 00:28:12.615 And that applies to really anything across the board. 00:28:12.915 --> 00:28:17.955 So that's sort of a central theme that we try to really put out there,'cause I think it's important. 00:28:18.945 --> 00:28:19.435 Yeah. 00:28:19.955 --> 00:28:20.605 I would agree. 00:28:21.586 --> 00:28:31.885 I think it's interesting, too, I have a lot of friends that, don't really have any of the issues that I have, and I'm like my,"I'm the only one here", you know? 00:28:32.246 --> 00:28:44.346 It's So it is nice to have the platform to, like, speak about it and, and just let other people know,"Yeah, you're not alone." Like, there's, there's so many of us. 00:28:44.506 --> 00:28:45.875 It's- There's so many insane. 00:28:46.195 --> 00:28:46.695 Yeah. 00:28:46.736 --> 00:28:46.976 Yeah. 00:28:47.215 --> 00:28:52.976 And I think a lot of people h- don't, like, they have something chronic and they don't identify it necessarily. 00:28:52.986 --> 00:28:54.476 They live with it, right? 00:28:54.476 --> 00:28:54.506 Yeah. 00:28:54.506 --> 00:28:57.875 Especially as you get older, you have this mentality like,"Well, I'm just getting older. 00:28:57.875 --> 00:29:01.915 I have to live with these aches and pains." But that's not true, you know? 00:29:01.915 --> 00:29:09.425 And so I think you, there might be people in your, in your circle that actually are suffering from certain things, and maybe they'll hear the podcast, and you might learn more information. 00:29:09.425 --> 00:29:15.925 Like the very first episode that we d- I think we released three at a time, so the third episode is my story, and it's a lot of what we talked about today. 00:29:15.925 --> 00:29:16.816 I go a little bit deeper. 00:29:16.816 --> 00:29:29.665 But I had people that I haven't heard from in 10 or 15 years reach out and say,"You know, I've been going through these sorts of struggles, and I appreciate you talking about it, and I feel less alone, and there's more here that I want to explore," and I just would've had no idea. 00:29:30.605 --> 00:29:32.645 So that really makes it kind of worth it, you know? 00:29:32.645 --> 00:29:36.806 Like, when you hear that you've actually connected with someone, you know, it's worth getting on 00:29:38.036 --> 00:29:38.165 the mic. 00:29:38.165 --> 00:29:38.506 Yeah. 00:29:38.566 --> 00:29:39.256 Definitely. 00:29:40.306 --> 00:29:43.453 I'm sure you're having that experience,'cause I mean, I've listened to some of your episodes and it's- Great. 00:29:43.453 --> 00:29:49.173 There's just, I, I, I connect with so much of, with what your guests are saying because there's just so much commonality. 00:29:49.203 --> 00:29:56.344 And I think women are probably more susceptible to, so I think the, the prevalence of autoimmune conditions and other chronic illnesses is much higher. 00:29:56.344 --> 00:30:00.354 I don't know what the stats are, but much higher in women, and it's because we take on so much. 00:30:00.773 --> 00:30:06.003 We people please, we don't ask for help, kinda just try and do it all until something stops us. 00:30:07.263 --> 00:30:07.733 Yeah. 00:30:08.193 --> 00:30:09.953 Yeah,'cause we're the caretaker, right? 00:30:09.963 --> 00:30:09.983

Yeah. 00:30:09.993 --> 00:30:12.273 So we only stop when we're in bed. 00:30:12.854 --> 00:30:13.144 Yeah. 00:30:13.544 --> 00:30:14.403 That's exactly it. 00:30:15.403 --> 00:30:16.304 Pretty much. 00:30:17.304 --> 00:30:23.443 Is there any other things that you wanna share, any takeaways that you have for the listeners? 00:30:24.253 --> 00:30:40.784 No, I just think, again, like if, if anyone's interested in it, this, you know, if you have chronic conditions, if you're interested in this kind of mind-body work that I'm talking about, and I really, really only touched the surface of it, but episodes 21 to 23 of the podcast are where we brought on, um, a, a mind-body coach. 00:30:41.233 --> 00:30:48.084 And so in one episode she goes through the neuroscience,'cause that's, that's very interesting to learn and that helps you shift your thought process. 00:30:48.084 --> 00:30:55.493 And a lot of that, of that is related to what I said where if you may be diagnosed with a back condition, but it doesn't mean that's what's causing your pain. 00:30:55.854 --> 00:30:57.114 And so that's sort of the realization. 00:30:57.144 --> 00:30:58.743 And then we talked a little bit about her story. 00:30:58.743 --> 00:31:00.814 She had chronic pain and she's recovered from it. 00:31:01.074 --> 00:31:04.564 Talked a little bit about coaching, so I have some resources there. 00:31:04.663 --> 00:31:12.503 Um, that's probably a good starting point, but just again, like you don't have to take what someone says as the gospel, right? 00:31:12.534 --> 00:31:21.943 Like take in information if you go to a doctor, take in information, but start doing your own research, and it's so much easier now that we have the internet and there's just so much information out there. 00:31:22.663 --> 00:31:26.384 You know, and look for people that are going through the same thing. 00:31:26.413 --> 00:31:33.804 And not in a way to have like a sick pity party for yourself,'cause that's also not healthy, but to just find community. 00:31:34.134 --> 00:31:36.213 'Cause I think community really, really helps. 00:31:37.604 --> 00:31:38.453 Yeah, I would agree. 00:31:39.453 --> 00:31:47.213 I was so used to being, the 30-year-old in the room full of, people from 65 to 80 in the doctor's office. 00:31:47.213 --> 00:31:49.983 I'm like,"Oh my God, this is terrible." 00:31:50.153 --> 00:31:50.594 Yeah. 00:31:50.624 --> 00:31:51.223 No, I know. 00:31:51.223 --> 00:31:53.463 And, you had fibromyalgia at some point, too, 00:31:53.864 --> 00:31:54.634 or- Yeah. 00:31:55.304 --> 00:31:55.604 Yeah. 00:31:55.604 --> 00:32:02.163 So I felt, I had, I mean, I don't know if that's a, if, like if it was diagnosed or not, but it's, like, I had all the muscle pains. 00:32:02.163 --> 00:32:02.574 I can't... 00:32:02.794 --> 00:32:07.804 I still don't put shirts on over my head'cause I'm afraid I can't get out,'cause I have this thing where I don't think my shoulders work. 00:32:07.973 --> 00:32:14.763 And they're,

they're fine, but I literally- Like, all kinds of weird things have come out of the limitations that I had 30-something years ago. 00:32:15.394 --> 00:32:16.794 You know- Yeah it's like you don't even realize it. 00:32:16.794 --> 00:32:18.114 But yeah, that, I, same thing. 00:32:18.114 --> 00:32:25.094 When I would go to the rheumatologist's office, there was a lot of elderly people, but also a lot of people that were younger, which was also disturbing to me. 00:32:25.314 --> 00:32:28.074 And again, they all looked like they were ready to, like they wanted to die. 00:32:28.084 --> 00:32:28.104 Yeah. 00:32:29.153 --> 00:32:31.564 And so I just hated going there even for that reason. 00:32:32.374 --> 00:32:36.634 Oh, I didn't even mention, so I had a hip replacement when I was 20, which is- Oh, 00:32:36.634 --> 00:32:37.084 wow 00:32:37.104 --> 00:32:38.844 probably a result of... 00:32:38.844 --> 00:32:41.483 Well, I had a knee replacement, too, but that's mostly from a car accident. 00:32:41.874 --> 00:32:44.074 But, so I, I was, like, bionic at 23. 00:32:44.614 --> 00:32:51.933 But the hip replacement was because of these cortisone and radiation injections, because it completely deteriorated the joint. 00:32:52.243 --> 00:33:01.794 And so when I was in university, I was supposed to be going to Florida to visit my grandparents, where I actually live now, and I wanted to get a cortisone injection'cause I knew that would give me a, a week of relief. 00:33:01.814 --> 00:33:05.784 And I went to a new doctor and he took some x-rays and he called me at 9:00 at night at home. 00:33:06.624 --> 00:33:08.463 And he said,"There's nothing for me to inject. 00:33:08.473 --> 00:33:15.523 There's no lining between your joint and your hip, and we don't usually do a hip replacement on someone who's 20, but what are we gonna do? 00:33:15.534 --> 00:33:16.614 Wait 60 years? 00:33:16.784 --> 00:33:19.284 Are you in?" So I had my hip replaced. 00:33:20.683 --> 00:33:20.903 Yeah. 00:33:22.163 --> 00:33:35.794 But it was actually- Yeah I mean, the result was pretty good, but now I wonder if maybe there was, you know, like, knowing what I know now if it would've been different, but I probably wouldn't change it at the time because, you know, when you have pain like that, and it was excruciating pain. 00:33:35.794 --> 00:33:40.493 I mean, I lived in, on painkillers part of my university'cause I was, I couldn't even get up the stairs. 00:33:40.534 --> 00:33:44.624 But, you know, when you're in that kind of pain, you'll kinda do anything that somebody says is gonna relieve it. 00:33:45.463 --> 00:33:46.034 Yeah. 00:33:46.124 --> 00:33:46.493 I know. 00:33:46.493 --> 00:34:05.364 I went through a lot of that, and looking back, I was talking to somebody about the manipulation under anesthesia that I had with Botox injections, and I'm looking back, I'm thinking,"I don't know how I thought that was gonna be a good idea." They put me under and, massaged all my muscles in my legs and my abdomen. 00:34:05.443 --> 00:34:15.074 I was, black and blue, and then they put Botox into my muscles so they would stop seizing up, and I'm like, yeah, I don't know. 00:34:15.074 --> 00:34:17.623 I mean, that doesn't even sound like a good idea. 00:34:17.634 --> 00:34:20.434 But at the time, I was just like,"I'm in so much pain. 00:34:20.434 --> 00:34:21.074 I don't know. 00:34:21.074 --> 00:34:23.983 Just do whatever is available," you know? 00:34:24.003 --> 00:34:35.193 So it's almost like you can self-abandon yourself just because you just don't know what else to do, and it might help for a little while, but then you just are back at square one. 00:34:35.474 --> 00:34:35.804 Yeah. 00:34:36.074 --> 00:34:38.664 Well, I, so I heard in one of your podcasts, I think it was with Shelly. 00:34:38.764 --> 00:34:40.043 Was that one of your- Mm-hmm recent guests? 00:34:40.043 --> 00:34:40.373 Yeah. 00:34:40.384 --> 00:34:53.793 So sh- you were both talking about things that sounded interesting because you talked about you would address one thing in one way, and then later another thing would happen, and then another thing would happen, and that's actually a red flag for this neuroplastic pain. 00:34:53.853 --> 00:34:57.873 Because what happens is, so you in theory fix something, but you didn't actually solve the problem. 00:34:57.923 --> 00:35:05.684 It's like if an alarm's going off and you spray water at the alarm, the alarm might go off'cause you broke it, but you didn't fix the fire. 00:35:06.574 --> 00:35:18.164 And so it's kind of like whatever is persisting that's causing your mind and body to collude and create this, this alarm signal has not been resolved, and so that's why you see a lot of times, like, symptom to symptom to symptom. 00:35:18.164 --> 00:35:19.023 Then you keep thinking,"Oh, my God. 00:35:19.043 --> 00:35:25.184 All these things are happening to me." And then you catastrophize that your entire body is shutting down and whatever that means. 00:35:25.224 --> 00:35:29.623 So it's actually, it's a really interesting concept when you start to look at it where things move around. 00:35:30.313 --> 00:35:30.634 Yeah. 00:35:30.634 --> 00:35:31.574 And that's, that's kind of how... 00:35:31.603 --> 00:35:35.014 That, that was what happened to my podcast partner after we had done this series of episodes. 00:35:35.153 --> 00:35:38.833 He, I think, did he go from back pain to, to neck pain to back pain. 00:35:39.664 --> 00:35:42.653 And he was like,"Well, that's weird'cause I didn't do anything different." Yeah. 00:35:42.653 --> 00:35:43.623 But the pain shifted. 00:35:44.233 --> 00:35:49.474 And so that's when he started to kinda have some aha moments about some of the neuroscience that we were talking about. 00:35:50.474 --> 00:35:51.273 It's very interesting. 00:35:52.594 --> 00:36:11.923 When you see things like that happening, is it just kind of a red flag then to say,"Okay, I need to be more mindful of what I'm thinking

and, what programs, what loops my mind is going in and what I'm telling myself, or what I'm being anxious about?" Or do you know how that kind of works? 00:36:11.923 --> 00:36:12.253 A- absolutely. 00:36:12.253 --> 00:36:16.534 I mean, it's literally a time to pause and think about what's going on in your life. 00:36:16.934 --> 00:36:19.043 And it may not even be something that's happening now. 00:36:19.043 --> 00:36:21.213 It could be something that's repressed from when you were a child. 00:36:21.224 --> 00:36:21.253 Mm-hmm. 00:36:22.014 --> 00:36:22.264 Right? 00:36:22.264 --> 00:36:29.344 There's, it's not like there's a quick fix that you can just find the solution and work on it, but it, it is a signal to look into it. 00:36:30.184 --> 00:36:31.804 And again- Okay there's different ways to do that. 00:36:32.014 --> 00:36:38.454 That's, that's a whole other podcast, but it's just- It's just, when, again, there's so many great books out there. 00:36:38.454 --> 00:36:44.173 I know you had talked about one that you read, and I think that some of the concepts in there are probably along these lines a little bit. 00:36:44.653 --> 00:36:46.134 And it was You Are Not Your Pain. 00:36:46.353 --> 00:36:46.543 Is that- 00:36:46.554 --> 00:36:47.003 Yeah. 00:36:47.164 --> 00:36:47.463 Mm-hmm. 00:36:47.474 --> 00:36:47.903 Yeah. 00:36:47.923 --> 00:36:52.884 So that's a way of, like, sep- because again, I, the rheumatoid arthritis, it sounds great that I got a diagnosis. 00:36:52.884 --> 00:36:56.514 People who go 20 years without getting a proper diagnosis may be grateful for that. 00:36:56.793 --> 00:36:57.934 But then it became my identity. 00:36:57.974 --> 00:36:59.233 I tell people I have arthritis. 00:36:59.233 --> 00:37:00.333 I call it my arthritis. 00:37:00.333 --> 00:37:03.603 That's, I'm trying to change the language of that,'cause I don't want it. 00:37:03.623 --> 00:37:04.673 I don't want it to be mine. 00:37:05.293 --> 00:37:10.554 So I'm trying- Right I'm trying to de-identify as that's my story. 00:37:11.414 --> 00:37:23.353 So now I, you know, I'll say I, I was diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis, or I have some joint pain, but I'm trying to disassociate from it being an identity that I carried around for a long time,'cause that perpetuates it. 00:37:24.353 --> 00:37:24.733 Yeah. 00:37:25.733 --> 00:37:28.173 You still have like flare-ups and stuff now. 00:37:28.193 --> 00:37:38.623 Is there anything that you feel like was a turning point for you as well as to try to shift from being in chronic pain so much? 00:37:39.253 --> 00:37:41.983 So it's not that I'm having flare-ups per se. 00:37:41.983 --> 00:37:44.744 I've had flare-ups where it's like you wake up and you physically can't move. 00:37:44.753 --> 00:37:44.784 Okay. 00:37:44.833 --> 00:37:46.434 I don't have that anymore. 00:37:46.704 --> 00:37:49.454 I have various degrees of the same pains. 00:37:49.454 --> 00:37:54.043 I have, again, my, my, my knees and, and there is some degeneration there. 00:37:54.043 --> 00:38:01.724 So that's the other component that gets messy for me with the mind body work, is that I- it's hard for me to get past that there's probably joint damage. 00:38:02.614 --> 00:38:05.684 Which again, may or may not be causing the pain, but it's different. 00:38:05.684 --> 00:38:10.463 Like with my back, I had a very bad event with my back, and at first I was like,"Oh my God, it's my back. 00:38:10.483 --> 00:38:16.463 It's the s- stupid stenosis thing," and then I realized that it was, it was, I was in the beginning stages of a very difficult breakup. 00:38:17.213 --> 00:38:17.653 Mm. 00:38:17.704 --> 00:38:18.514 And so when I... 00:38:18.603 --> 00:38:27.684 It took me a few days, I wallowed in this pain, and then I was listening to one of these books and I had this realization, like it's, it's actually the trauma from what's going on in this breakup. 00:38:28.213 --> 00:38:35.994 And it got almost, not 100% better, but it got significantly better, and that's when I started going back down this rabbit hole of all of the mind body work. 00:38:36.003 --> 00:38:37.583 I sort of like started following the breadcrumbs. 00:38:38.353 --> 00:38:40.764 And so with the back, I'm able to mostly control it. 00:38:40.773 --> 00:38:46.523 I'm still struggling a little bit with the joints, again,'cause I think my brain hasn't fully accepted that it's not the joint damage. 00:38:46.954 --> 00:38:53.793 And, and it's f- 30 plus years of like, we, we talk about the brain being like plastic. 00:38:53.804 --> 00:38:54.983 It's learned these things. 00:38:54.994 --> 00:38:57.353 It's learned that if I move my elbow, it's going to hurt. 00:38:57.364 --> 00:38:57.373 Mm. 00:38:58.213 --> 00:39:03.643 And so a lot of this is, again, what I said, rewiring my brain to understand that it doesn't have to be that way. 00:39:04.364 --> 00:39:08.893 Which again, is a, maybe a difficult thing to unwind, but that's kind of where I'm, that's what I'm working on. 00:39:08.974 --> 00:39:09.463 Yeah. 00:39:09.574 --> 00:39:10.724 Yeah, it takes time. 00:39:10.974 --> 00:39:11.204 Yeah. 00:39:12.204 --> 00:39:14.074 So, and again, just living my life, right? 00:39:14.074 --> 00:39:23.514 Like yes, I have pain, but I, I'm doing things, which is a, a shift, and I think that that takes you a little bit out of the fear cycle of a chronic condition. 00:39:24.724 --> 00:39:39.844 Yeah, I would agree,'cause then I'm, I do the same thing, and it's more of like, well, I'm just gonna go do whatever it is I wanna do and enjoy myself, and then if I decide that I don't wanna be there or something is happening, then I can leave. 00:39:39.844 --> 00:39:42.063 It doesn't have to be so much pressure. 00:39:42.063 --> 00:39:48.434 I think that amount of pressure and, trying to control everything and adds more stress. 00:39:48.623 --> 00:39:49.103 Yeah. 00:39:49.114 --> 00:39:52.554 And I'm someone, like even back in high school, I always liked to have

my own car. 00:39:52.583 --> 00:39:53.724 I like an exit strategy. 00:39:53.824 --> 00:39:59.653 That, that just even, I don't necessarily need it, but emotionally, that helps me feel like if I don't feel well, I can leave. 00:40:00.414 --> 00:40:02.393 And trying to kind of get out of the people pleasing. 00:40:02.853 --> 00:40:03.153 You know? 00:40:03.153 --> 00:40:06.784 Like, if you maybe just really don't feel good on a certain day, it's okay. 00:40:07.474 --> 00:40:09.423 Or if you wanna go home early, it's okay. 00:40:09.693 --> 00:40:09.903 Right? 00:40:09.903 --> 00:40:14.954 'Cause we can also carry a lot of guilt and shame about ruining somebody else's plans. 00:40:14.963 --> 00:40:14.983 Yeah. 00:40:15.673 --> 00:40:16.744 But that makes it worse. 00:40:17.034 --> 00:40:20.704 So kinda just, you know, again, it's And, and these things don't come naturally. 00:40:20.704 --> 00:40:22.673 I have to remind myself all of the time. 00:40:22.753 --> 00:40:28.844 Even when I went to these concerts, I was thinking about all the things and worrying about it, and I just like,"I wanna go." So I b- I bought a ticket. 00:40:28.844 --> 00:40:34.954 Normally, I wouldn't buy a ticket until the last minute fearing that I wasn't gonna feel good, and then I would talk myself out of going. 00:40:35.574 --> 00:40:38.313 So my new thing is to just, I see it, I wanna go, I buy the ticket. 00:40:39.563 --> 00:40:41.074 You know, and then I work it out later. 00:40:41.844 --> 00:40:42.344 Yeah. 00:40:43.344 --> 00:40:45.103 Yeah, it sounds like a lot more freedom 00:40:45.753 --> 00:40:46.634 It is, yeah 00:40:46.634 --> 00:40:47.063 Yeah 00:40:47.503 --> 00:40:54.014 Cause I spent so much time hermiting in my house being afraid to do things,'cause I was worried about how I feel. 00:40:55.193 --> 00:40:55.664 Yeah. 00:40:56.693 --> 00:40:57.414 And I get it. 00:40:57.414 --> 00:41:02.744 It's definitely It's not a, a fear of something that doesn't happen either, right? 00:41:02.744 --> 00:41:07.273 It's not like a, a fear that you're having that you don't experience. 00:41:07.304 --> 00:41:08.193 You know what I'm saying? 00:41:08.204 --> 00:41:09.364 Like, some kind of phobia. 00:41:09.373 --> 00:41:13.534 Yeah When you deal with pain all the time, it's for sure real. 00:41:14.074 --> 00:41:16.233 Yeah, and you have to moderate yourself, you know? 00:41:16.244 --> 00:41:21.623 I, I struggle with finding the right balance between giving myself rest and pushing myself to do things. 00:41:21.653 --> 00:41:24.074 'Cause a lot of times when I make plans I'm like,"Ah, I don't feel like going. 00:41:24.074 --> 00:41:24.634 I'm too tired. 00:41:24.634 --> 00:41:27.684 Something hurts." And then I go and I don't wanna go home'cause I'm having so much fun. 00:41:28.594 --> 00:41:41.143 But other times I do need to rest, so I have to manage pushing myself, but I don't always trust that I can distinguish between when it's kind of the illness, like f- when I really should rest, or if I'm kind of taking it too far. 00:41:42.094 --> 00:41:44.333 You know, that's something I'm still trying to kind of balance. 00:41:45.634 --> 00:41:46.264 Yeah. 00:41:47.393 --> 00:41:49.474 I'm learning to balance a lot these days. 00:41:50.474 --> 00:41:50.974 It's tough. 00:41:50.974 --> 00:41:51.474 Right? 00:41:51.554 --> 00:41:51.793 It's tough. 00:41:51.793 --> 00:41:53.844 Yeah We wanna do, we wanna do all the things. 00:41:55.164 --> 00:41:55.753 Yeah. 00:41:56.353 --> 00:42:08.393 Yeah, and Being a woman and trying to hold all, you know, hold everything together and do everything that you feel like you need to do to have accomplished, to- 00:42:08.744 --> 00:42:08.994 Yeah 00:42:09.233 --> 00:42:19.324 Not so much people please, but, you know, I mean, we wanna show everybody that we're here to help and we're here to contribute and all that stuff, but it just It's a role, right? 00:42:19.333 --> 00:42:19.693 It's- 00:42:19.713 --> 00:42:19.983 Yeah 00:42:19.983 --> 00:42:28.693 So I'm trying to learn a lot more now, Where am I doing things out of obligation versus, you know, like... 00:42:29.804 --> 00:42:30.603 I, I don't know. 00:42:30.614 --> 00:42:36.853 I- it's like a fear that, that people aren't gonna think that I'm doing enough. 00:42:36.893 --> 00:42:37.833 You know what I'm saying? 00:42:37.833 --> 00:42:38.043 Yeah. 00:42:38.043 --> 00:42:46.494 Like, oh, well if I don't show it in this way, then people are gonna think I don't give a shit or I don't wanna contribute or something. 00:42:46.844 --> 00:42:48.893 So it's interesting. 00:42:48.893 --> 00:42:49.059 But 00:42:49.059 --> 00:42:56.054 you, you know that you can do all the things, and if somebody's not in the space to receive it, they're still going to receive it as not enough. 00:42:56.804 --> 00:42:57.244 Yeah. 00:42:57.253 --> 00:42:58.373 So that's, that's the thing. 00:42:58.373 --> 00:43:07.583 I mean, you could burn yourself into the ground, but if somebody doesn't see it or they're, they're having their own issues and it doesn't, it's not apparent to them, it doesn't matter. 00:43:08.324 --> 00:43:08.463 Yeah. 00:43:08.463 --> 00:43:09.083 And I think that that's... 00:43:09.103 --> 00:43:13.943 I mean, that's a hard thing to wrap your head around, but I think, you, you,'cause you can't control someone else's reaction to something. 00:43:14.023 --> 00:43:19.284 You may do something that's like the nicest thing that you would love, because we do things that we often think like we would enjoy. 00:43:19.884 --> 00:43:20.173 Mm-hmm. 00:43:20.173 --> 00:43:27.884 So I, I s- my analogy is like, okay, I'm a vegetarian so I- if somebody cooked me the most amazing steak, I wouldn't be excited, right? 00:43:27.884 --> 00:43:29.583 They might spend all this money. 00:43:30.063 --> 00:43:30.844 Like, you know? 00:43:30.844 --> 00:43:33.634 But first of all, I'd be mad that they didn't know that I didn't eat steak. 00:43:33.653 --> 00:43:39.063 But like in

theory, you know, somebody might not have the reaction that you expect, even if you gave them the world. 00:43:39.914 --> 00:43:44.643 So it's, you know, you have to, again, manage how you moderate all of that. 00:43:45.173 --> 00:43:45.753 Yeah. 00:43:46.123 --> 00:43:55.764 It's true also that, you can do as much as you want, but if somebody already has you pigeonholed as a certain way, they're not gonna see what you're offering either, you know? 00:43:55.764 --> 00:43:55.923 No, 00:43:55.923 --> 00:43:56.523 exactly. 00:43:56.534 --> 00:43:57.523 So yeah. 00:43:58.114 --> 00:43:58.554 Yeah. 00:43:58.804 --> 00:44:10.353 I always find it's, uh, sometimes even easier to interact with new people because they're only getting to see the version of me at that time, not the version they knew from 30 years ago that they still remember, and that's at the lens through which they see me. 00:44:11.224 --> 00:44:11.764 Yeah. 00:44:11.994 --> 00:44:17.333 So I think that's why it's important to grow and kind of have new people in your world,'cause you get to be more authentically you each time. 00:44:18.414 --> 00:44:18.864 Yeah. 00:44:19.123 --> 00:44:27.244 Yeah,'cause people have those impressions and then instead of really seeing you, they see their impression of you, you know- Yeah no matter how you show up, so. 00:44:27.273 --> 00:44:27.773 Exactly. 00:44:27.784 --> 00:44:27.804 Yeah. 00:44:27.813 --> 00:44:32.574 Which also is partly based on their own impressions of themselves, but that's a- Yeah whole other topic. 00:44:33.574 --> 00:44:36.164 Well, thank you so much for coming on the show today. 00:44:36.514 --> 00:44:37.173 It was my pleasure. 00:44:37.173 --> 00:44:37.614 It's fun. 00:44:37.623 --> 00:44:39.173 And I love, I mean, I love what you're doing. 00:44:39.173 --> 00:44:40.804 I love the, the name of the show. 00:44:40.804 --> 00:44:44.744 I think it's great because that's, again, you're rewriting your story. 00:44:44.974 --> 00:44:46.443 It's not, you're not your illness. 00:44:47.603 --> 00:44:47.934 Yeah. 00:44:47.934 --> 00:44:47.943 Absolutely. 00:44:47.943 --> 00:44:51.233 So I, I really, I love what you're doing and I'm excited to hear more episodes. 00:44:51.914 --> 00:44:53.233 Well, thank you so much. 00:44:53.313 --> 00:44:54.753 I'm, I'm working on it. 00:44:55.833 --> 00:44:56.123 I know. 00:44:56.123 --> 00:44:57.324 Well, that's a whole other thing, right? 00:44:57.373 --> 00:45:07.288 Like, for a perfectionist like me, having a podcast is great, but also it's extra work, and I have to moderate- Not getting overwhelmed,'cause that will lead to other problems. 00:45:07.867 --> 00:45:08.077 So. 00:45:08.077 --> 00:45:08.728 Yeah. 00:45:09.027 --> 00:45:16.527 Between the, the recordings and the editing and- Yeah trying to, to keep up with the IT, and I know you work full time as well. 00:45:16.527 --> 00:45:16.757 Yeah. 00:45:16.757 --> 00:45:25.777 You know, so it's like just trying to keep it fun and more of a passion project, and I don't want any- Yeah anything, uh, to be a chore. 00:45:25.938 --> 00:45:27.458 I'm working on that, too. 00:45:27.478 --> 00:45:28.427 You know, making... 00:45:29.297 --> 00:45:37.327 Changing my viewpoint of, of why I do the things I'm doing, is because I want to, not because I have to. 00:45:37.338 --> 00:45:37.358 Um. 00:45:38.728 --> 00:45:39.108 That's good. 00:45:39.137 --> 00:45:40.018 That's very powerful. 00:45:40.498 --> 00:45:41.047 Yeah. 00:45:42.047 --> 00:45:44.967 Trying to see the blessings in all of the things that I've chose. 00:45:44.967 --> 00:46:09.947 It's funny'cause I was talking to somebody The other day, one of my friends sent me a meme that was something about I got married and I had this dream of having this husband and this life and, and the job and everything, and it's like all these things we chose, but then once we get them, we're like,"Oh, but I don't like this," or,"I don't like that." So it's like that attitude of coming from"I chose this. 00:46:09.978 --> 00:46:15.918 This, this was my dream at some point," and now I have it, and now, why am I like,'Oh, I don't wanna be here. 00:46:15.918 --> 00:46:16.898 I don't wanna do this,'" yeah,'cause... 00:46:16.898 --> 00:46:18.088 nothing is ever what it seems. 00:46:18.088 --> 00:46:20.507 And also, we don't even always know why we want something. 00:46:20.688 --> 00:46:22.188 You know, like there's conditioning from when you're little. 00:46:22.188 --> 00:46:26.248 You're told to, you, you know, you get a- you, you grow up, you find somebody, you get married. 00:46:26.248 --> 00:46:28.898 Like, that's just part of how we expect life to go. 00:46:29.487 --> 00:46:36.947 And then you have that and you're like,"I don't know." I, I'm a forensic accountant and I'm doing mostly family law right now, so all I I do a lot of divorce work. 00:46:37.748 --> 00:46:38.108 So. 00:46:38.217 --> 00:46:38.588 Mm. 00:46:38.978 --> 00:46:42.347 So I'm seeing a lot of people's, you know, the, regretting the choices they made. 00:46:43.347 --> 00:46:47.878 And then they have all this stuff, and they're fighting over it, and some of them don't even have this much stuff and they're fighting over it. 00:46:47.887 --> 00:46:48.737 They don't know why. 00:46:48.748 --> 00:46:54.628 They're just mad at somebody else, and it's kind of like the cycle of life unless you pull yourself out of it. 00:46:55.398 --> 00:46:56.047 Yeah. 00:46:56.177 --> 00:46:56.588 Yeah. 00:46:56.677 --> 00:46:57.858 And live deliberately 00:46:57.918 --> 00:46:58.027 yeah. 00:46:59.217 --> 00:46:59.717 Absolutely. 00:47:00.717 --> 00:47:01.068 Oh. 00:47:01.887 --> 00:47:05.998 Well, thank you, and I will look forward to hearing more of your podcasts. 00:47:06.407 --> 00:47:06.978 Thank you. 00:47:07.007 --> 00:47:08.027 It was great talking to 00:47:08.438 --> 00:47:14.228 if you know of someone that would be the perfect guest or would like a certain topic explored, please reach out to me. 00:47:14.547 --> 00:47:19.340 My contact information is in the show notes Thank you for listening. 00:47:19.530 --> 00:47:26.320 If you've enjoyed this episode, please like, subscribe, leave a review, and share it with a friend. 00:47:26.391 --> 00:47:30.061 Until next time, you get to choose who writes your story. 00:47:30.291 --> 00:47:32.052 Let's make it amazing