התמלול המלא של How Did We Get So Denominated?

that was really good, refreshing, and got to see the boys. 00:02:10.240 --> 00:02:11.599 So they're saying so. 00:02:11.919 --> 00:02:12.240 All right. 00:02:12.400 --> 00:02:13.759 Um so that was really cool. 00:02:13.919 --> 00:02:15.919 And uh, but it was a quick turnaround. 00:02:16.240 --> 00:02:18.159 Have they found a church plug into yet up there? 00:02:18.319 --> 00:02:19.520 Yeah, Mount Vernon. 00:02:19.680 --> 00:02:21.680 Um they've I think they've settled on that church. 00:02:21.840 --> 00:02:21.919 Okay. 00:02:22.319 --> 00:02:40.960 They're gonna they're actually gonna do like a churches in that area around seminary, they allow kids to like do like a membership that's sort of it's not like membership like we would think of it in a permanent way, but because they know they're they're sort of transient as students, um, but they allowed them to come in and membership, and so they're they're gonna be doing that maybe this Sunday. 00:02:41.280 --> 00:02:41.680 Oh cool. 00:02:41.840 --> 00:02:42.719 So yeah, joining that church. 00:02:42.960 --> 00:02:44.639 Is that a uh far drive for them? 00:02:45.439 --> 00:03:00.960 No, so that's crazy because it's a seminary, there are tons of churches all over, and most of the churches are like pastored by guys that went through that seminary or affiliated with them, and so um, there's a lot of good options, a lot of good, healthy churches. 00:03:01.039 --> 00:03:04.879 And so um they visited several and they've just landed on this one. 00:03:04.960 --> 00:03:12.319 So I did want to ask uh with you having the the boys be gone out of the house in college, how it what's the vibe? 00:03:12.479 --> 00:03:18.240 Is it like uh one of those where it's man, I was ready for those two to get out of the house and it's kind of happy. 00:03:18.400 --> 00:03:36.080 Or I I I know there's a baseline of like I love my kids and they were they were great at the house, but no, uh I for us on in our situation, we're really excited about because knowing who they are, knowing the path that they're they're wanting to be on, uh, we're excited to see what God does with them. 00:03:36.159 --> 00:03:39.039 And so it, yeah, there's a mixture I've tell told everybody. 00:03:39.120 --> 00:03:51.919 It's just it's sort of like a blend of like you're certainly it comes in waves, like the emotions of that separation and the sadness, but then at the same time, what's confronted with that sadness is like, man, this is this is what it was all about. 00:03:52.000 --> 00:03:56.479 You know, you've raised them to do this, and so uh a lot of joy, yeah. 00:03:56.719 --> 00:04:00.319 So uh both joy and sadness, but I think that's a lot of parenting. 00:04:00.639 --> 00:04:02.800 Yeah, were they the main grass cutters at the house? 00:04:03.039 --> 00:04:03.599 They were not. 00:04:03.840 --> 00:04:04.800 Oh, they were not. 00:04:05.039 --> 00:04:07.599 I that's they were the main uh smelly sock producers. 00:04:08.159 --> 00:04:08.879 Yeah, yeah. 00:04:09.120 --> 00:04:20.959 Honestly, they've they've been so busy the last few years, like in high school and stuff, uh, with dual enrollment and sports and school and everything else that um yeah, I think they have more downtime now up there than they've ever had before. 00:04:21.360 --> 00:04:22.240 Yeah, which is good. 00:04:22.319 --> 00:04:28.160 They're doing a lot of studying so you know, but um, but yeah, it's it's been weird, but it's been good. 00:04:28.399 --> 00:04:28.879 Nice. 00:04:29.040 --> 00:04:29.519 Yep. 00:04:29.839 --> 00:04:32.560 I um I saw a cool thing. 00:04:32.879 --> 00:04:35.040 The only thing I think of this week is I saw God show up. 00:04:35.199 --> 00:04:37.360 Sean had called me a couple days ago. 00:04:37.839 --> 00:04:38.240 Wednesday. 00:04:38.480 --> 00:04:41.759 Yeah, Wednesday, and he was confiding me and stuff, and so I confided in him some stuff. 00:04:41.839 --> 00:04:52.720 And one of the things I confided was my work has been demanding so much lately, and I've got so much pressure on me because I'm trying to get funds together and build a home and start a life for my family. 00:04:53.040 --> 00:04:58.879 But um it's just trying to make that meet in such an expensive world and such a crazy world. 00:04:59.120 --> 00:05:10.560 Um, and I'm working farther and farther from home, and I was like, man, I don't, I'm you know, I'm I'm praying for all this for me to be able to be closer, be more involved, and and I'm like, I just don't see him. 00:05:10.639 --> 00:05:11.600 I don't see where he's at. 00:05:11.759 --> 00:05:19.759 And uh literally the next day I get a phone, I I get told by uh inspector I'm working with, and he's like, hey, listen, don't tell nobody I told you. 00:05:20.000 --> 00:05:24.319 But they're talking about giving you a lead on a project that's closer to your home. 00:05:24.560 --> 00:05:25.600 I was like, oh, that's great. 00:05:25.680 --> 00:05:28.240 It's still in another state, but it's closer. 00:05:28.480 --> 00:05:29.519 It's not eight hours away. 00:05:29.680 --> 00:05:32.079 Yeah, it's still closer, and so that'll be nice. 00:05:32.240 --> 00:05:40.399 Um it was it's just funny how like here I was pouring my heart out, trying not to be a pouty baby, but at the same time the next day, it's like, oh okay. 00:05:40.560 --> 00:05:41.680 All right, he hears me. 00:05:41.759 --> 00:05:43.199 Um my temper tantrums. 00:05:43.439 --> 00:05:53.439 Yeah, we um we've been having a uh fun time at work trying to get next year's uh business really uh scheduled and understand what's gonna happen next year. 00:05:53.519 --> 00:05:56.879 So that's right, you're in the management side, so you're probably thinking about the new fiscal year. 00:05:57.040 --> 00:05:57.920 Do you start in October? 00:05:58.160 --> 00:06:02.879 No, well, so our stuff is um it's almost a year-long build. 00:06:03.199 --> 00:06:06.399 So we have to we're already working 2027 stuff. 00:06:06.639 -->

00:06:10.160 So it's just trying to get everything like you know into motion. 00:06:10.399 --> 00:06:11.439 And your top secret job. 00:06:11.920 --> 00:06:14.000 In my top secret's not my top secret job. 00:06:14.240 --> 00:06:15.279 So you're a transponder. 00:06:16.160 --> 00:06:16.800 Yeah. 00:06:19.199 --> 00:06:23.600 Listen, uh, so Richard, I asked you if you've listened to any of the podcasts yet and you haven't. 00:06:23.839 --> 00:06:25.600 Um I will let you know. 00:06:25.759 --> 00:06:29.680 We have, I mean, I'm blown away by the people who are faithful and are listening. 00:06:29.920 --> 00:06:30.959 It really does mean a lot. 00:06:31.120 --> 00:06:33.600 Um, me and the guys talk, but we do it because it's fun. 00:06:33.759 --> 00:06:38.639 We don't plan on this ever being, you know, we don't have to quit our jobs and do this full time. 00:06:38.720 --> 00:06:39.279 We don't plan on that. 00:06:39.519 --> 00:06:40.000 It would be cool. 00:06:40.160 --> 00:06:41.920 It would be cool, but I highly doubt that. 00:06:42.160 --> 00:07:06.480 Um but we enjoy being able to try and reach out to people and impact people's lives from the people that we meet from day to day who are just either people who left church and haven't been back because they got their feelings hurt or felt it wasn't for them, um, but they grew up there, or people who have kind of always never went and have been put off because they think Christians are this way, and we want to try and bridge that gap. 00:07:06.560 --> 00:07:16.879 And um, I've talked to um other pastor friends, and they were telling me they're like, it's good, and you haven't, you know, said anything bad because you know, you don't get too too deep. 00:07:16.959 --> 00:07:18.959 And I'm like, Well, we don't try and get too too deep. 00:07:19.040 --> 00:07:26.079 I said, because that's some of the things we get out in construction, out in the world, where it's just like, man, I don't understand what people are talking about. 00:07:26.240 --> 00:07:27.439 Like they're talking over my head. 00:07:27.519 --> 00:07:28.720 Like I've never attended Sunday school. 00:07:28.800 --> 00:07:29.920 I have no idea what they're talking about. 00:07:30.000 --> 00:07:30.319 Yeah. 00:07:30.480 --> 00:07:32.800 Um, and so that's what we tried to do in Reach. 00:07:33.040 --> 00:07:34.560 And um, I'm blown away what we have. 00:07:34.639 --> 00:07:38.079 We six countries have listened in to this. 00:07:38.480 --> 00:07:41.040 Um, Japan is up to five. 00:07:41.199 --> 00:07:45.680 Uh one dude in Japan who is tearing it up. 00:07:46.000 --> 00:07:48.959 Um, he's like Kyoto or something like that in Japan. 00:07:49.120 --> 00:07:55.360 Um, Malaysia got six downloads, which I'm gonna go ahead and tell you that's cheating because it's my family who's missionaries over there. 00:07:57.040 --> 00:07:57.759 What would you say that? 00:07:59.920 --> 00:08:01.759 We're honest and we're we're straightforward. 00:08:02.000 --> 00:08:14.319 Um, but what did surprise me was the fact of like we're having downloads all the way all over because I figured it'd be just right here local to where we live, it'd just be our our family, but surprisingly, like a lot of it's not California. 00:08:14.560 --> 00:08:16.079 Most of my family hasn't even listened yet. 00:08:16.160 --> 00:08:16.319 Yeah. 00:08:16.560 --> 00:08:21.199 So um Yeah, we had some in California and Arizona and Texas. 00:08:21.279 --> 00:08:21.839 It's pretty cool. 00:08:22.160 --> 00:08:25.360 The places where scripture is hardest to penetrate, I'll tell you right now. 00:08:25.600 --> 00:08:27.279 Um which Texas. 00:08:27.439 --> 00:08:28.319 Yeah, Texas. 00:08:29.040 --> 00:08:29.759 Not Texas. 00:08:30.079 --> 00:08:30.319 No. 00:08:30.480 --> 00:08:34.240 Um, but no, yeah, it's it's been neat to see where it's gone. 00:08:34.480 --> 00:08:41.440 Um Richard, will you give us a bit of a background about how you got into ministry, you know, where it's led you, where you're preaching now? 00:08:41.919 --> 00:08:47.279 Yeah, so I grew up in a in a small church uh in Union County where I grew up. 00:08:47.519 --> 00:08:56.879 And fortunately, you know, after being in ministry now almost 20 years, I didn't realize how fortunate I was because it was a healthy church. 00:08:57.039 --> 00:09:04.080 In terms of uh continuity, unity, the pastor that's there that came in when I was a freshman in high school, he's still there. 00:09:04.399 --> 00:09:07.279 And so he's been there a long time, probably gonna retire there. 00:09:07.519 --> 00:09:09.600 And so uh he had a big impact on my life. 00:09:09.759 --> 00:09:12.080 He and his wife and um their family. 00:09:12.240 --> 00:09:15.360 He lived in a pastorium, which was uh back in the day. 00:09:15.440 --> 00:09:21.519 Uh pastors used to live on the grounds where the church was, and so they were always accessible, yeah. 00:09:22.000 --> 00:09:23.200 Uh, which is a little weird. 00:09:23.279 --> 00:09:24.799 I'm glad that tradition is gone. 00:09:24.960 --> 00:09:30.559 But he was but he was a he was a guy that because I lived close to the church, I mean close proximity. 00:09:30.639 --> 00:09:31.759 I could walk to the church. 00:09:31.919 --> 00:09:33.519 My family didn't really go to church a lot. 00:09:33.600 --> 00:09:34.879 I was really the only one that went. 00:09:35.039 --> 00:09:43.120 Most of my friends were there, and so really just relationally, my my connection to the church was with deep relationships with people. 00:09:43.279 --> 00:09:47.679 So it wasn't necessarily that I was super religious or that my family was super religious. 00:09:47.840 --> 00:09:51.919 Um, for me, it was the people that I connected with, shared life with. 00:09:52.080 --> 00:09:56.320 Like my pastor, we would we went hunting and fishing and did all that kind of stuff all the time. 00:09:56.480 --> 00:10:01.600 So he really um mentored me, discipled me, and not in a super formal

way. 00:10:01.679 --> 00:10:05.120 It was all informal interactions, but just sharing life together. 00:10:05.279 --> 00:10:09.360 I saw how he was a husband, how he was a father, how he was a godly man. 00:10:09.519 --> 00:10:12.559 And so you glean and pick up a lot of that stuff along the way. 00:10:12.639 --> 00:10:18.799 And so uh early on in my high school years, they gave me opportunities to lead out and teach and do different things. 00:10:18.879 --> 00:10:23.039 And I never thought of myself, you know, going into ministry at all. 00:10:23.200 --> 00:10:31.759 Um then when we were uh maybe towards the end of my senior year, I the Lord started doing a little bit of a different work in my heart about that. 00:10:31.919 --> 00:10:35.519 But at the same time, there's so much going on that in that senior year of high school. 00:10:35.679 --> 00:11:12.240 Me and my best friend Noah, we uh he taught me in the joining the military with him, and so we headed off, and then two weeks into basic training at Fort Knox, the towers got hit, and so that changed really changed everything because after the towers got hit, uh started a Bible study in our barracks and uh pretty much a hundred percent turnout after the towers got hit, and so I was leading a Bible study and and just ministering to guys, and it was like the barracks became uh a local church, not truly, but there were there were elements of it where the word was being taught, uh, real relationships were being established, and ministry was happening. 00:11:12.320 --> 00:11:19.759 So I remember writing back because uh Miss Tammy, brother Paul's wife, uh she was sort of like a again, they both sort of took me in. 00:11:19.840 --> 00:11:24.879 They had two little girls, and um, so literally I almost became like one of the family with them. 00:11:24.960 --> 00:11:30.879 And so I was writing them, and I I remember just expressing what I felt like God was doing in my life and heart. 00:11:30.960 --> 00:11:36.960 And the the I had envisioned after military, like, man, I I think God's calling me to this work. 00:11:37.039 --> 00:11:40.559 And so, but it was super in the infant stage, so I didn't really know what that even meant. 00:11:40.639 --> 00:11:44.240 I'd heard people talk about a call that sounded strange and ambiguous. 00:11:44.320 --> 00:11:45.840 I didn't know what any of that meant. 00:11:46.000 --> 00:11:50.480 But what was happening was it was the early stages of God really drawing me in that direction. 00:11:50.639 --> 00:11:54.320 So um when I got home, I remember Miss Tammy. 00:11:54.879 --> 00:12:00.799 Yeah, I started just when you get back home from the military, you just sort of start doing the things you pick back up where you left off. 00:12:01.039 --> 00:12:03.200 And I'm just going to church doing the thing. 00:12:03.440 --> 00:12:06.240 And I remember her pulling me to the side one day. 00:12:06.320 --> 00:12:08.159 She's like, You remember what you wrote me. 00:12:08.320 --> 00:12:09.840 You remember, we've been praying about that. 00:12:10.159 --> 00:12:28.240 She I remember their intentionality about you know, so when people talk about, you know, God's call, you know, when he's calling them the ministry, a lot of that call is the local church and the people that that know you and that are there that God uses to affirm and encourage and build you up in that way. 00:12:28.399 --> 00:12:32.399 And so, anyways, um then there was a tragic accident. 00:12:32.559 --> 00:12:42.879 She uh I came to church on a Wednesday night, and it was obvious that you know things were going crazy, and um she actually passed away just down the road. 00:12:43.039 --> 00:12:51.759 She was big in horses and stuff, and brother Paul actually couldn't get a hold of her, so he went down there, found her, and she was she was dead in the in the arena. 00:12:52.000 --> 00:12:57.519 And I just remember the the shock, the the uh just wrestling through. 00:12:57.679 --> 00:13:01.759 I remember talking to him, you know, a m a month or so afterwards, just broken down. 00:13:01.840 --> 00:13:11.200 Like I just felt like you know, I was wrestling with internally with some guilt about delaying and pushing off what I felt like God was calling me to do. 00:13:11.279 --> 00:13:16.000 And anyways, he was super faithful and kind and we worked through a lot of that stuff. 00:13:16.080 --> 00:13:24.000 And then I was started, I was dating Stace, and I started working with her father-in-law or my father-in-law, her father on the farm. 00:13:24.159 --> 00:13:33.759 And so we actually started a a business and we started taking over some of the business that and some of the clients he had and feed stores, and and so we were just I was just all into that life. 00:13:33.840 --> 00:13:39.360 We'd started having, you know, Stacey and I got married, had two kids, and uh life was good. 00:13:39.600 --> 00:13:53.840 And I kept I for me, I a lot of my um what I'd really failed to do was like I kept trying to rationalize, like I can still be a servant, and I I can still serve you, Lord, and I'm gonna do it in all these ways. 00:13:53.919 --> 00:13:56.559 So I was like a deacon, sang in the choir. 00:13:56.639 --> 00:13:58.960 I taught discipleship training on Sunday nights. 00:13:59.279 --> 00:14:06.320 I literally did everything you could possibly do in the church to try to pacify for me to dull that that that the calling. 00:14:06.480 --> 00:14:09.039 Yeah, and it but it only intensified. 00:14:09.360 --> 00:14:19.360 So like so I remember several days, like I'd get off the tractor, I'd come inside, and I'd just weep, and I'd just be on the couch, I'd have an open Bible, and just it would just tear me up. 00:14:19.440 --> 00:14:23.279 And I didn't know how to, I didn't know how to explain it, I didn't know what to do with it. 00:14:23.840 --> 00:14:27.679 And then uh yeah, finally, one night in the middle of the night, it was like 3 a.m. 00:14:28.320 --> 00:14:32.720 I woke

up and it was just like a breaking point. 00:14:33.279 --> 00:14:40.159 I woke Stace up and said, It's time, and she's like, All right, so we sold everything we had, and uh here I am. 00:14:40.639 --> 00:14:42.399 That is that's the long or the short of it. 00:14:42.480 --> 00:14:45.519 Yeah, well, I mean, I'm glad you put it that way though. 00:14:45.679 --> 00:14:50.159 Um I grew up, and it's funny you talk about people talking about the call. 00:14:50.399 --> 00:14:57.600 Um, I had people telling me, like, oh man, you'd make such a good pastor back when I was, you know, a kid and growing up, you get in middle school, so you had people really putting that on you. 00:14:57.840 --> 00:15:01.039 People tell me, Oh, you know, praying for you, I think you'd be good. 00:15:01.200 --> 00:15:05.840 And so the camp and stuff we had gone to especially was big on that. 00:15:06.000 --> 00:15:08.720 Like somebody's being called to ministry, this, that, whatever. 00:15:08.879 --> 00:15:14.720 I remember at one point at that camp accepting that, and people are like, Oh, yeah, you're gonna be pastor, this or that. 00:15:14.960 --> 00:15:20.159 But for years, even getting into high school, I was like, people are like, Don't remember, you know, you're still gonna be pastor, right? 00:15:21.919 --> 00:15:25.360 I don't really feel like that's for me. 00:15:25.440 --> 00:15:40.240 I don't feel like that's like I remember doing that, but like the more I think about it, like I don't feel like my heart is there for that, like not a certain ministry, not a whatever, and um you know, talking to important people in my life, you know, they they'd let me know. 00:15:40.320 --> 00:15:46.240 They're like, listen, you might have been called, you might have said that, but you might have just been called to serve in your church. 00:15:46.399 --> 00:15:49.039 And they're like, it doesn't mean just because you said the call, you have to be a pastor. 00:15:49.200 --> 00:15:52.000 So I was like, wait, like it came off me. 00:15:52.240 --> 00:15:54.799 So obviously, I feel like student ministry has been that. 00:15:54.879 --> 00:15:58.720 Uh I felt so good there, but yo yeah, yeah, that call, I was like, uh oh. 00:15:59.440 --> 00:16:04.320 Yeah, I'm thinking a lot of people get it um a little twisted too when you hear like, oh, the call. 00:16:04.399 --> 00:16:09.360 And like when I was younger, I was like, What did God actually like did he call you like on the phone? 00:16:09.519 --> 00:16:16.799 Like that's and not a lot of people understand like what it means like with the Holy Spirit to like have the like conviction of it weighing on you. 00:16:17.039 --> 00:16:28.960 Yeah, it was it was years of you know, just increasing intensity burden on my heart, you know, and so and I was in a place where I was in a we were in a really good place, yeah. 00:16:29.120 --> 00:16:32.879 And so it wasn't like I was at rock bottom and I didn't have any other recourse. 00:16:33.120 --> 00:16:36.399 This was the last you know, I tried to run from it as hard as I could. 00:16:36.960 --> 00:16:38.559 And um good luck. 00:16:38.879 --> 00:16:50.559 I think that's the cool part of like testimonies like that is that it can be viewed as like running and like at any point in the time of the run, you could have turned and he would have like put you right where he wanted you to do. 00:16:50.639 --> 00:16:52.960 And he could, because he he can do anything like that. 00:16:53.039 --> 00:16:58.639 But and his will is obviously was for you to be a pastor, but it is cool in situations like that. 00:16:58.799 --> 00:17:10.640 A lot of times when he he obviously he knows you're going to run from the call that he's put on you, but he uses that time of you running to prepare you to be a pastor and your wife to be a pastor's wife as well. 00:17:10.799 --> 00:17:12.799 So God's up in heaven. 00:17:12.880 --> 00:17:14.240 We got a runner, yeah. 00:17:14.799 --> 00:17:17.680 Yeah, gotta teach this one on the booth. 00:17:18.079 --> 00:17:19.039 Yeah, yeah. 00:17:19.359 --> 00:17:21.680 So, where are you what what church are you at now? 00:17:21.920 --> 00:17:23.599 I'm at Madison Street Baptist Church. 00:17:24.319 --> 00:17:26.559 Been here since 2020, right in the middle of COVID. 00:17:26.799 --> 00:17:27.599 Right in the middle of COVID. 00:17:27.759 --> 00:17:29.039 Yeah, that's a crazy time. 00:17:29.200 --> 00:17:29.519 Yeah. 00:17:29.680 --> 00:17:31.200 Um, that crazy church. 00:17:31.440 --> 00:17:32.400 Yeah, crazy church. 00:17:32.559 --> 00:17:33.440 Southern Baptist? 00:17:33.759 --> 00:17:34.240 Yes. 00:17:34.559 --> 00:17:34.880 Okay. 00:17:35.119 --> 00:17:36.559 All right, Southern Baptist Convention. 00:17:37.039 --> 00:17:38.720 I've grown up Southern Baptist my whole life. 00:17:38.799 --> 00:17:38.960 Yeah. 00:17:39.200 --> 00:17:42.720 Southern Baptist, how far does that extend, Southern Baptist churches? 00:17:42.799 --> 00:17:44.559 Like, where does the South stop? 00:17:44.720 --> 00:17:48.960 Because there's no Northern Baptist churches, so like you'd be surprised, yeah. 00:17:49.200 --> 00:17:58.240 No, so actually, I mean, what the work that we're doing in New Hampshire, I think there's 19 SBC churches in the state of New Hampshire right now. 00:17:58.960 --> 00:17:59.839 In New Hampshire? 00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:00.400 Mm-hmm. 00:18:00.559 --> 00:18:01.279 That's wild. 00:18:01.440 --> 00:18:01.759 Dang. 00:18:02.000 --> 00:18:02.880 So we're all over, man. 00:18:02.960 --> 00:18:03.680 Alaska. 00:18:04.319 --> 00:18:05.519 We're all over all over the world. 00:18:05.599 --> 00:18:10.000 We're the we have the largest uh missionary sending agency, the IMB. 00:18:10.079 --> 00:18:11.200 It's the largest in the world. 00:18:11.359 --> 00:18:14.079 We've got thousands of missionaries all over the world planting churches. 00:18:14.400 --> 00:18:18.799 I had to do research into the Southern Baptist uh convention because I was

like, what is it? 00:18:19.039 --> 00:18:21.759 Truly, the convention is only when they meet. 00:18:21.920 --> 00:18:22.960 It's the convention. 00:18:23.119 --> 00:18:26.000 Other than that, it's not it's the assembly of everybody. 00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:35.680 Other than that, it's not where the Southern Baptist Convention is when we're not gathered, it's just we're all Southern Baptists, we all agree, and then we all share funds to help people either in seminary or missions. 00:18:35.920 --> 00:18:47.599 They tried to rename it Great Commission Baptists of mine always uh a few conventions ago, and you know, because it was trying to get away from the the stigma of Southern Because we're not. 00:18:47.680 --> 00:18:52.480 I mean, because that's what it makes me think of is that we're yeah, we're yeah, we're all we're all over now. 00:18:53.039 --> 00:19:01.200 Historically, because of the denomination, the concentration of churches are um predominantly in the south. 00:19:01.599 --> 00:19:10.799 However, over the last 50 years or so, I mean, we're the the intention through our North American Mission Board and the IMB is is church planning. 00:19:10.880 --> 00:19:11.759 I mean, we're all over the place. 00:19:12.079 --> 00:19:12.720 We're just being real. 00:19:12.799 --> 00:19:15.759 I didn't know there was a World Christian encyclopedia. 00:19:16.000 --> 00:19:17.200 I did not know that. 00:19:17.359 --> 00:19:21.839 But the World Christian Encyclopedia says that there are 40,000 Christian dominations. 00:19:22.240 --> 00:19:30.079 Yeah, I think we actually uh with We have one of the we have one of those encyclopedias for uh our our we homeschool our kids. 00:19:30.160 --> 00:19:33.279 So I think we have how thick is that? 00:19:33.599 --> 00:19:35.039 Uh I don't know, like four inches. 00:19:35.200 --> 00:19:42.480 We might as well get that in here, because I mean we talked about one we need one book in here in our broom closet. 00:19:42.640 --> 00:19:45.279 Um because we talk about needing an encyclopedia anyway. 00:19:45.440 --> 00:19:48.400 Um we have 40,000, which go looking into it. 00:19:48.559 --> 00:20:01.119 It counted like individual churches, it counted individual like traditions and like so it took a lot in consideration when really there's only like 10 to 12 separate Christian denominations, apparently. 00:20:01.440 --> 00:20:05.599 You have like main big branches, and then off of those branches you got all kind of stuff. 00:20:05.839 --> 00:20:07.839 I mean, that 40,000 is probably accurate. 00:20:09.039 --> 00:20:09.519 40,000. 00:20:10.480 --> 00:20:12.319 Who was it that said be of one mind? 00:20:13.119 --> 00:20:14.559 Who wasn't who was it? 00:20:14.640 --> 00:20:16.960 Yeah, Jesus Paul. 00:20:17.279 --> 00:20:18.400 I figured it was Jesus or Jesus. 00:20:19.839 --> 00:20:22.079 That's what Jesus or Paul came from the same source. 00:20:22.240 --> 00:20:22.960 I just thought it was funny. 00:20:23.039 --> 00:20:26.319 I wrote in my notes, it was like Paul or Jesus said be of one mind. 00:20:26.480 --> 00:20:28.880 Christianity was like, best I could do is 40,000. 00:20:29.359 --> 00:20:30.240 40,000 minds. 00:20:30.400 --> 00:20:31.519 That's what best of what we can do. 00:20:31.680 --> 00:20:32.400 We got close. 00:20:32.640 --> 00:20:32.960 Yeah. 00:20:33.200 --> 00:20:35.599 We're not seven billion, but we're 40,000. 00:20:35.759 --> 00:20:38.160 We're percentage-wise, we're doing pretty good. 00:20:38.480 --> 00:20:42.960 So every time there has been a new denomination, it's because somebody disagreed about something. 00:20:43.440 --> 00:20:51.200 So you have the apostolic age where the apostles are going out, starting the church, uh, establishing the church in major cities at the time. 00:20:51.440 --> 00:21:00.079 How I mean, I feel like that started because Christians in that church either forgot or misinterpreted what the apostles taught them the second the apostles were gone. 00:21:00.880 --> 00:21:01.119 Yeah. 00:21:01.279 --> 00:21:02.400 Well, these human nature. 00:21:02.480 --> 00:21:05.119 I mean, Galatians, Paul says, Who's bewitched you? 00:21:05.279 --> 00:21:14.480 You know, I mean, every every every church has every generation has to wrestle through the you know, what is the faith once delivered, and are we going to contend for it? 00:21:14.559 --> 00:21:15.599 Are we going to keep it? 00:21:15.920 --> 00:21:24.160 Um, and and so I'll always said, and it's it's true historically, you look back and like the Lord grows his church in spite of us. 00:21:25.519 --> 00:21:32.720 We are uh prone to to certainly make a mess of things, and yet he has still the text this Sunday I'm preaching out of. 00:21:33.200 --> 00:21:35.440 There's one Lord, one faith, one baptism. 00:21:35.839 --> 00:21:43.599 And so even in the midst of those 40,000 expressions and traditions, there is one church compiled of all of them. 00:21:43.759 --> 00:21:55.839 Um and so that's the good news that even though we have fragmented in a thousand different ways, whatever, the Lord continues to keep and build his church in spite of all of that. 00:21:56.000 --> 00:21:59.759 Um, because if he was not faithful, we would have yeah, the church would have tanked along. 00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:00.640 Time ago. 00:22:01.599 --> 00:22:02.640 That's the good news about it. 00:22:02.880 --> 00:22:09.759 Yeah, because the apostles were, even when they were alive, they were still having disagreements and there were still false teachings appearing. 00:22:10.079 --> 00:22:11.039 Paul wrote all of his letters. 00:22:11.200 --> 00:22:11.359 Yeah. 00:22:11.519 --> 00:22:21.440 And if you gotta, if you're a church and you received a letter from Paul, can you imagine there was some stress whenever they said the address on the letter? 00:22:23.599 --> 00:22:25.920 Like letter number four again. 00:22:27.680 --> 00:22:30.480 It's like I always see those, um, I do scroll a lot. 00:22:30.640 -->

00:22:41.920 So when I see those memes and our videos and reels, and there's one that's about Paul um different uh churches receiving letters from Paul, it's like they open up the letter, and it's like Paul's hand comes out and they start smacking them. 00:22:42.799 --> 00:22:45.440 I always think about the letters of like a howler from Harry Potter. 00:22:45.519 --> 00:22:47.359 Like, if you don't open it, it's gonna start saying it out loud. 00:22:49.519 --> 00:22:51.359 Um because I feel like that's what it was. 00:22:51.440 --> 00:22:53.039 It's like, this is a good one. 00:22:53.200 --> 00:22:53.599 Have we been good? 00:22:56.079 --> 00:23:04.160 Paul wrote kind of like how I text people when I have issues of like, if I have an issue with you, I'm probably gonna lead with like, man, you're I really appreciate you. 00:23:04.319 --> 00:23:09.599 Uh like and he's like, Man, you guys are on fire for the Lord, but I have this against you. 00:23:13.279 --> 00:23:15.519 And then he ends it with like, you know, a mama. 00:23:19.519 --> 00:23:20.799 That would be the most scary thing. 00:23:21.119 --> 00:23:23.440 Actually, um I'll be there in about five minutes. 00:23:26.400 --> 00:23:29.519 Um so we talk about like they split every time. 00:23:29.599 --> 00:23:32.640 What what do you feel like the first split was? 00:23:32.960 --> 00:23:34.000 Because like in London. 00:23:34.640 --> 00:23:39.119 There's early schisms between the Eastern Orthodox and and Rome. 00:23:39.279 --> 00:23:42.160 And so uh those those happen real, real early. 00:23:42.319 --> 00:23:47.920 There were, you know, if if you start to get into the weeds, like there were small, you know, divisions. 00:23:48.000 --> 00:23:56.960 There's a reasons, there's a reason why we have the councils and the creeds uh established early on because there was false teaching as early as the first century. 00:23:57.119 --> 00:24:07.279 And so in those early first few centuries, you would basically have the the leaders of the churches come together and settle. 00:24:07.359 --> 00:24:25.519 And that's that's where you get like the the the Apostles' Creed, the Nicene Creed, all of these creeds came out of okay, we have to, yeah, we all have the same source text, we all have the Bible, but there's obviously disagreements and there's false teaching rising up. 00:24:25.680 --> 00:24:38.160 And so we need to do, we need to guard the integrity of the church, and the best way to do that is to get a consensus and get everybody in the same room together and iron out, nail out like what are our non-negotiables. 00:24:38.319 --> 00:24:40.240 And so that's what those early creeds were. 00:24:40.400 --> 00:24:46.400 It was a clear, definitive statement of what the church holds to death. 00:24:46.559 --> 00:24:49.039 Like we're we don't compromise on these things. 00:24:49.119 --> 00:24:52.480 And it was always surrounding really the doctrine of God, who God is. 00:24:52.559 --> 00:25:04.880 When you speak of the Trinity, uh the divinity of Jesus, um, salvation, his return, like those big, big things that are gospel-centric that um make us distinctly Christian. 00:25:04.960 --> 00:25:11.839 Uh, and that if you move away from those, that's when you stepped away from the faith into something altogether different. 00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:24.559 And so, but within that, within that structure, obviously downstream now, 2,000 years, we can see there's a lot of variations that still can fall under that umbrella of we are Christian. 00:25:24.799 --> 00:25:47.839 Yeah, we know we serve the same God, we worship the same king, uh, we understand the blood atonement, we understand that Christ is Lord and His divinity, like so all of those things, you can be a Christian, hold to those things unapologetically, and then again have a lot of um differences, you know, some of them minor, a lot of them minor, most of them minor. 00:25:48.160 --> 00:26:00.400 So, yeah, those first early years it was Rome and and then if it got to where you know if you if you spoke out against the church, the mingling of church and not just politics, because the church is a political entity. 00:26:00.640 --> 00:26:02.799 I mean, we're the kingdom of heaven on earth. 00:26:02.880 --> 00:26:11.599 So there's gonna be uh, you know, we're as we go throughout the world, we have a a true allegiance to King Jesus. 00:26:11.680 --> 00:26:20.799 And so in every political government structure in the history of the world, there's gonna be some rub and there's gonna be um some things that come to the surface. 00:26:21.039 --> 00:26:37.839 However, uh Rome itself got to where the church it blurred the line so much that it it stepped and crossed over some lines and it became an entity into itself um that did not it stopped functioning like a New Testament church. 00:26:38.319 --> 00:26:39.839 Is that what led to the Great Schism? 00:26:40.240 --> 00:26:40.799 Yeah, yeah. 00:26:40.960 --> 00:26:42.880 I well uh a lot of things. 00:26:43.039 --> 00:27:19.759 Um certainly um in the argument can be made that you know, I look back at the time when we were one church, and I'm just thinking, man, how awesome would that be if we didn't have 22 different churches in one town that everybody was shopping and you know then they become competitive and everybody's trying to build their own brand and do their own thing, and this person goes here because this church has that program, this person goes here because they like this preacher, and this person goes there because they like that music, and like you just got all of these superficial, ridiculous things that keep people separated. 00:27:20.000 --> 00:27:21.680 Yeah, it waters it down. 00:27:21.920 --> 00:27:33.039 Yeah, and and I would I just how awesome would it be if you didn't have all of these, you didn't have a marketplace for the church, if it was just the church, and this is what Christians did. 00:27:33.200 --> 00:27:47.039 They assembled, they got under

the word, they did all the things that Christ called them to be and do, and it was just so I yeah, there's there's definitely a uh a longing, and I think we all long for that. 00:27:47.440 --> 00:28:17.599 That's one of the the things that we look forward to and anticipate, you know, when this age is over, is that there is going to be, and because there is now one body, there is one people, and um so yeah, it it stinks that we've made a mess of things, but it's also good news that one Christ holds all of that brokenness together, and that at one point in history, when this age is over, you know, we're gonna we're gonna experience that that oneness uh fully realized. 00:28:17.839 --> 00:28:19.279 And so I look forward to that day. 00:28:19.359 --> 00:28:34.720 But yeah, and so uh Rome got to where the uh consolidation of power and like the ecclesiology, so ecclesiology is just a word that means, you know, what in terms of ecclesia, that Greek word, which means the assembly, the church itself. 00:28:34.880 --> 00:28:52.079 And when you understand biblical ecclesiology, you understand that the local church was always meant to have local pastors and deacons, and it was supposed to be uh a visible representation of Christ's work and his body on the earth, where it is. 00:28:52.319 --> 00:29:03.759 But what happened is is over time there there was a need or a felt need to unite all of these churches under one sort of hierarchical, and that's where you have the Pope. 00:29:03.920 --> 00:29:07.680 Pope means Papa, and you've got uh the first Pope is Peter, correct? 00:29:07.759 --> 00:29:14.000 They believe the first Pope is Peter, and they believe today that the apostolic line is a direct succession from him. 00:29:14.640 --> 00:29:23.279 And so they believe that that they they hold that to that to be very important in terms of the authority of the church, uh, that it is apostolic going all the way back to us. 00:29:23.599 --> 00:29:32.480 But it but all of that became again, even with the early intentions, the church again, great aspirations. 00:29:32.720 --> 00:29:45.519 But what happens is is when you consolidate that power and the church begins to grow and it becomes politically aligned, um, that that power corrupts and it it got to where the church just it just lost its way. 00:29:45.680 --> 00:30:00.240 You know, long story short, the church lost its way over generations, and even in the midst of it losing its way, some of our greatest theological minds grew out of those times, like Augustine and these guys, like they are in the midst of a lot of that. 00:30:00.319 --> 00:30:09.119 And and so it wasn't like the church wasn't doing anything good just because there was corruption, you know, in places and pockets, it wasn't rampant. 00:30:09.359 --> 00:30:34.480 And so sometimes the Catholic Church gets a bad name because you know, we we have our own experiences or caricatures built up in our minds, but there was a lot, a lot of good going on, but it

got to a tipping point and it got finally got to a breaking point to where the corruption was was so pervasive, especially at the top, to where some things just needed to be addressed, and that's where you come to the the Protestant Reformation. 00:30:34.640 --> 00:30:56.720 But even before the Protestant Reformation, guys like um John Huss and some of these other guys that were probably a century before Luther, um you know, they had so there were sort of minor reformations, little sparks of reformation leading up to the massive one that we we know about that's more popular 500 years ago. 00:30:56.960 --> 00:31:00.559 And and it was come it was born out of the same concern. 00:31:00.720 --> 00:31:15.839 It was like, man, you know, the when you look at the biblical text, they just started seeing a lot of inconsistencies and started to see where historically there's been a deviation from what the church historically has held to be true. 00:31:16.079 --> 00:31:24.000 And um, when you call in that into question, you start messing with people's authority and power and influence, you know, it got ugly. 00:31:25.680 --> 00:31:29.920 They thought that the Pope was like, or they still think that the Pope is like the main authority, correct? 00:31:30.240 --> 00:31:51.119 Yeah, and they have they have the Apocrypha, they have they have other accounts, and so they they would hold if you press them, they hold that the tradition of the church, the authority of the church, uh, is yeah, you have that apostolic succession, so they believe that the Pope um is essentially the great interpreter. 00:31:51.200 --> 00:32:05.279 Like he he's the one that's gonna have the the final word, and and the church tradition has always um really placed itself at least alongside scripture, if not if not above it. 00:32:05.519 --> 00:32:08.880 And um, so yeah, that's that's a dangerous place to be. 00:32:09.039 --> 00:32:16.480 Because that's not that's not consistent with the origin of the church that we we were created from the word by the word. 00:32:16.960 --> 00:32:21.200 And so we always hold everything to to that measure. 00:32:21.440 --> 00:32:24.000 And so again, there's still a lot of good things. 00:32:24.319 --> 00:32:29.680 Catholics, by definition, according to the apostles' creed, they are Christian. 00:32:29.839 --> 00:32:43.359 They are, you know, now again, just like from church to church, place to place, culture, you know, depending on the context, you know, there there can be expressions of Catholicism that I would say miss the gospel. 00:32:43.519 --> 00:32:56.640 Uh, and as a result, you know, you're on dangerous ground when you start considering that your justification before God is not Christ alone, is not grace alone. 00:32:56.799 --> 00:33:03.119 You know, they understand grace to be sort of a more of a cooperation between us and and Christ's blood. 00:33:03.279 --> 00:33:15.759 And and so when you start, you you can get in a very, very dangerous place where you're just like, I don't know if this, if, if we're bordering on not actually being Christian at this point. 00:33:15.920 --> 00:33:26.480 Um, however, their their doctrine of God, the Trinity, and their a lot of what they've contributed to the Christian faith historically, man, you can't you can't throw that aside. 00:33:26.559 --> 00:33:28.880 We were all Catholic for 1,500 years. 00:33:29.119 --> 00:33:29.440 Yeah. 00:33:29.599 --> 00:33:31.839 So I mean, there was all that was the church. 00:33:32.000 --> 00:33:33.200 And so it doesn't. 00:33:34.079 --> 00:33:48.720 So I think sometimes uh we just need to be charitable because there's a lot of convictions that are held by practicing, like just like in Baptist life, you've got people who take it serious and people who are just name associated only. 00:33:48.799 --> 00:34:02.720 And so I think those that are truly um committed to the faith, you know, if you have sit down and have a conversation with with them, you're gonna find that there's a lot of common ground, there's a lot of convictions that we hold that are similar. 00:34:02.960 --> 00:34:07.440 It's just the big schism, the big separation is when you come to salvation. 00:34:07.599 --> 00:34:08.880 Like, how is a man saved? 00:34:08.960 --> 00:34:09.280 Yeah. 00:34:09.519 --> 00:34:11.039 And then that's when we part ways. 00:34:11.280 --> 00:34:11.920 I mean, that is true. 00:34:12.079 --> 00:34:14.000 A lot is similar when you get down to it. 00:34:14.079 --> 00:34:18.960 It's it's like traditions and stuff that's kind of surface level um separates us. 00:34:19.039 --> 00:34:21.280 Yeah, um, but it's not so the eternal matters as big. 00:34:21.440 --> 00:34:30.159 So you talk about like Great Schism, that's where Roman Catholic and um Eastern Orthodox had kind of become things they they merged out of each other. 00:34:30.320 --> 00:34:32.239 Um and then you talk about Martin Luther. 00:34:32.400 --> 00:34:40.639 So Martin Luther didn't he so he challenged the churches, he didn't like the way that the practices and teachings, like you were saying earlier, how they were being taught in the practices that were at the time. 00:34:40.800 --> 00:34:44.880 And so from that, a lot of Protestants had came to be. 00:34:45.199 --> 00:34:48.880 I mean, he was a priest, he he was Catholic, just like everybody in Europe was. 00:34:49.119 --> 00:34:55.599 And so um he has a little there's a little testimony about him where he got caught up in a lightning storm. 00:34:55.679 --> 00:35:00.960 He basically made an oath to God, like, man, if you save me, deliver me, I'll go into the priesthood, I'll serve you. 00:35:01.199 --> 00:35:02.400 And so that happened. 00:35:02.559 --> 00:35:06.000 He got, you know, he didn't get struck by lightning, so he was true to his word. 00:35:06.079 --> 00:35:07.599 He went into the priesthood. 00:35:07.679 --> 00:35:30.719 Uh, he was a German monk and he was studying through Romans essentially, and started just

seeing the nature of grace and the essence of the gospel, and became really convicted that the teachings of the church not only just from that that sort of opened the door to cause him to it's sort of like light broke through, and then he began to see a lot of other things. 00:35:30.960 --> 00:35:51.679 And so his intention, I think this is really important historically for people to understand, his intention was to bring about reform within the church, is to essentially call the church to identify these areas to repent and to just just like the church had done so many other times before, like we need to course correct here. 00:35:51.760 --> 00:35:59.280 We need to get back like we read the Jesus' letters to the churches in Revelation to those seven churches, like it was essentially the same call. 00:35:59.360 --> 00:36:01.760 Like, this is what we're called to always reform. 00:36:01.840 --> 00:36:08.559 We're called to always look at scripture and to pattern our lives and the life of the church after what Christ has established. 00:36:08.639 --> 00:36:11.039 And so let's do that, let's have these conversations. 00:36:11.519 --> 00:36:21.519 But again, it was it was the train was too far down the tracks, and um other guys had again attempted that he was not the first one historically. 00:36:21.599 --> 00:36:33.119 There's a lot of other guys that had tried that, and um, as a result, were were either put out of the church, excommunicated, or dealt with in more violent ways. 00:36:33.280 --> 00:36:47.280 And so, anyways, so yeah, he took those grievances, 95 theses he nailed to the castle church there in Wittenberg in Germany, and just as a public display of like, we need to talk about this, that was not received well. 00:36:47.519 --> 00:36:50.159 Yeah, again, that was not his first course of action. 00:36:50.320 --> 00:37:00.079 He actually traveled down to Rome to have conversations with the leadership of the church, and when he got to Rome, it said that what he saw there um was worse than he imagined. 00:37:00.159 --> 00:37:12.880 It wasn't just the theological stuff written on paper, it was the way that the leadership of the church, the bishops, the cardinals, all these people were living in lifestyles that were um making a mockery of the faith. 00:37:13.039 --> 00:37:15.679 And so that was a tipping point for him. 00:37:15.760 --> 00:37:19.280 So he came back home and just said, mm-mm, I can't, I can't do this. 00:37:19.360 --> 00:37:22.960 And so, yeah, the rest is history. 00:37:23.199 --> 00:37:29.119 Because his whole thing was like having the authority in the scripture and not in the traditions, like so like correct. 00:37:29.199 --> 00:37:42.000 I mean, he appreciated the traditions, and listen, there's there's a there's an appeal, not all tradition, you know, when we hear that word tradition for the modern ear, it it uh you know it rings uh it's like nails on the chalkboard for a lot of people. 00:37:42.320 --> 00:37:59.840 Tradition

typically, tradition is grows out of conviction of what we've seen in the word, and so we try to pattern our traditions and our methods and what we do, the life that we live, based on predicated on what we see in scripture. 00:37:59.920 --> 00:38:08.239 And so, not all tradition, again, it's just over time when it goes unchecked and you're not going back again and again to scripture. 00:38:08.400 --> 00:38:19.119 But listen, biblical literacy is the if you were to ask me like what's the biggest driving force behind the Reformation and why it was necessary, it's biblical literacy. 00:38:19.199 --> 00:38:23.039 I mean, that's what that's what Martin Luther, that's what convicted him. 00:38:23.280 --> 00:38:36.880 Because up until that point, the church, one of the big things that the church did, which is a huge mistake, is it did not commit itself to Bible translation in the in the tongues of the nations that it was advancing the gospel into. 00:38:37.199 --> 00:38:43.119 And so for that entire history of the church leading up to the Reformation, it was all in Latin. 00:38:43.280 --> 00:38:48.400 That was like the holy language, and priests would essentially be the mediators of God's words. 00:38:48.719 --> 00:39:06.480 They would stand before the people and they would go through the sacraments, and and so all the that basically you consolidated all the teaching to one uh very select group of people who had the ability to learn Latin and to disseminate that information to the people. 00:39:06.719 --> 00:39:13.840 And so they were um, I mean, they had to just listen to what was taught, follow along. 00:39:14.079 --> 00:39:30.880 And so when when you're not having real conversations and you're not letting iron sharpen sharpen iron, you're not getting the word into the mother tongue of these people that you're in these lands that you're taking the church into, you're setting yourself up inevitably for what happened. 00:39:31.119 --> 00:39:43.119 And and so if you were to again, if you put your finger on what caused the Reformation biblical literacy, people were able able to see for themselves what the Bible teaches. 00:39:43.360 --> 00:40:17.760 Like there's an there's an old story, I think it was uh Wycliffe, that um had a conversation um with some English noble people who were you know talking about the the the church and what was going on, and they're sort of making light of the I the fact, the idea that Luther and Calvin and some of these guys that were pushing the issue that the expectation that common people could have access to to the word in that way that not everybody can be a priest, that's only for the priesthood, you know. 00:40:18.000 --> 00:40:29.519 Anyways, he got frustrated and really enraged and he told him, he said before he died, you know, his his commitment was that the plowboy in the field would know more scripture than the highest nobleman in the land. 00:40:30.079 --> 00:40:34.320 And to his dying breath, he gave us the first English translation of the Bible. 00:40:34.400 --> 00:40:46.960 And so so the historically, when you start to really uh peel back the layers of it, you realize that it the Reformation was sparked by biblical literacy. 00:40:47.039 --> 00:41:13.440 It was just the word, it was a reclaiming of the gospel because for so long it had been shut up in the mines and halls of the cathedrals and in the priesthood that just again, I'm not saying everybody did it intentionally, and I th I I I've learned over the years to you know to be empathetic towards people when you grow up, when you're when you're born into an age and a time and and that's how things were and functioned, you know. 00:41:14.159 --> 00:41:59.440 But it took it took some people to shake the tree a little bit, and that's what Luther did, and that's what Calvin did, and some of these other guys, Wingley, and anyways, a lot of these guys, and so but so the two things biblical literacy was the big big spark of the Reformation, but also technology, because at the same time that these guys were seeing the scripture and starting to translate the scripture, the Gutenberg, the printing press was invented, and it was the first time that you were able to actually get God's word printed in you know whether you lived in France or Spain or England, and so these people were actually able to have a copy of God's word in their own language for the first time ever. 00:42:00.159 --> 00:42:08.159 And that revolutionized, you know, and that that accelerated the spread of the gospel across that continent. 00:42:08.639 --> 00:42:12.159 And so again, that was a biblical literacy issue. 00:42:12.320 --> 00:42:35.039 People were able to see and read for themselves, and and so that's when you started seeing all the generationally, like after Luther, all these reformers started popping up in all these countries, and um they started going through a sort of a renaissance of themselves, sort of like early in church history when you had the Apostles' Creed and Nicene Creed, you started having these creeds that were established. 00:42:35.199 --> 00:42:44.559 Well, in the Protestant Reformation, because of what they had just gone through for 1,500 years, they started putting together their confessions of faith that were more detailed. 00:42:44.719 --> 00:42:53.360 They were more um, and so that's where you started seeing all your denominational sort of branches of the faith of the Protestant faith. 00:42:53.519 --> 00:42:57.119 Because Protestant within that word, it it the word protest is there. 00:42:57.679 --> 00:43:05.840 So it was a protest against a false teaching that then they treasured so much that they began to put together. 00:43:05.920 --> 00:43:23.599 So you have like your Westminster confession, your your early uh Lutheran and Presbyterian confessions, and all of those were meant to articulate what we and it, but if you read the Westminster Confession, it's like like the Apostles' Creed, I can read it in um

30 seconds. 00:43:23.760 --> 00:43:37.360 The Westminster Confession will take you, it's like a book, and it so it goes through like, and so that's that's where you started getting all these traditional, like these distinctives between each denomination and and how they understood scripture. 00:43:37.519 --> 00:43:40.960 And the intent there, again, they were just serious about the Bible. 00:43:41.119 --> 00:43:42.239 That's what that's what happens. 00:43:42.400 --> 00:43:59.599 If you're serious about the Bible, uh and you're convicted about what it teaches, and you have it in your own language, and and you're not some you know, crazy person off in the woods, but like there's a consensus among your peers of like, hey, we read these, we hold these things to be true, and we're gonna, you know, build a church tradition around this. 00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:10.159 And so what I guess what I'm saying is I hate the fact that the Reformation it turned out the way it did, that now we have all we're not a unified church in that way. 00:44:10.480 --> 00:44:12.880 However, it preserved the gospel. 00:44:13.039 --> 00:44:13.679 Yeah, sure. 00:44:13.920 --> 00:44:15.440 It got the gospel into other people. 00:44:15.679 --> 00:44:21.760 And so even though we're we're not as unified as we we need to be, at least the gospel moved. 00:44:21.840 --> 00:44:24.719 It moved out of the dark ages, it moved into the light. 00:44:24.880 --> 00:44:26.559 The gospel was reclaimed. 00:44:26.880 --> 00:44:33.679 People now again, I don't like the fact that like we live in a town where there's 22 churches in our city limits. 00:44:33.760 --> 00:44:35.760 Like I think that's I think it's more than that. 00:44:35.920 --> 00:44:40.960 Yes, I think there's like if you do a quick Google search, I think there's like 22 churches that come up on a Google search. 00:44:41.360 --> 00:44:44.800 And so you see a lot of unhealthy churches, a lot of fragmentation. 00:44:44.880 --> 00:44:49.840 Uh yeah, our voice in the culture is muffled as a result because we're not unified. 00:44:50.079 --> 00:44:52.559 So there's a lot of things we need to do better. 00:44:52.800 --> 00:44:59.119 And uh there's a lot of things that have hurt the church because we've we've done a good job of making a mess of things. 00:44:59.360 --> 00:45:10.159 However, if you look back over the last couple few hundred years, the gospel has moved further and faster to the ends of the earth than it ever did in those dark ages, in those 1500 years. 00:45:10.480 --> 00:45:14.079 And so with the there's good and bad in all of it. 00:45:14.719 --> 00:45:14.880 Yeah. 00:45:15.280 --> 00:45:36.480 And you know, I think every Protestant, historically, every Protestant, the origins of, you know, whether it's um the Lutheran Church, um, the Presbyterian Church, the Anglican, like there are really good, solid theological minds, personalities, and churches. 00:45:36.639 --> 00:45:40.239 Um I mean, you've led us into a good point. 00:45:40.320 --> 00:45:41.119 We'll we'll get into it. 00:45:41.199 --> 00:45:43.440 Because I've we've got ten set aside here. 00:45:43.679 --> 00:45:46.480 Um we've already talked about this one a good bit, so it shouldn't take long. 00:45:46.800 --> 00:45:48.800 But the Roman Catholic Church, right? 00:45:48.960 --> 00:45:55.199 So I we just said like they believe that the Pope lineage has started with Peter, it's been a succession. 00:45:55.360 --> 00:45:57.519 Now he has the end all be all say. 00:45:58.559 --> 00:46:02.559 But um, and I know that Roman Catholic, they believe that they're the one true church. 00:46:02.880 --> 00:46:06.719 Well, so the word Catholic means universal. 00:46:06.880 --> 00:46:09.519 So yes, it means one church. 00:46:09.920 --> 00:46:14.719 And there is one church, but it's not necessarily in Rome. 00:46:15.119 --> 00:46:26.480 So but yes, their their understanding is that they are the church, have always been anyone who broke off from them, we're the red-headed stepchild of the uh of Christendom. 00:46:26.719 --> 00:46:27.039 The family. 00:46:27.280 --> 00:46:34.639 And so, whether you're Greek or Orthodox, and so and again, we would align with them on the when it comes to the doctrine of God. 00:46:34.719 --> 00:46:41.760 We worship the same God, we part ways essentially when it comes to like they they view Mary as a mediator. 00:46:41.920 --> 00:46:44.400 Um don't they view the saints as mediators? 00:46:44.559 --> 00:46:47.360 They we pray to the saints in order to pray on our behalf. 00:46:47.599 --> 00:46:56.000 Yeah, there's penance, there's indulgences, you know, they believe that you can earn and and buy back, you know, good grace with the Lord. 00:46:56.159 --> 00:47:02.880 And so I again when it comes to the heart of the gospel, that's they've butchered that thing. 00:47:02.960 --> 00:47:08.320 Yeah, and so as a result, when you don't get the gospel right, there's so much everything flows out. 00:47:08.559 --> 00:47:09.519 That's the fountainhead. 00:47:09.679 --> 00:47:21.280 Like if you get if you don't understand the relationship of Christ to his church and you start adding all these and pulling in all these other things, uh, again, tradition can serve the church or it can hurt the church. 00:47:21.360 --> 00:47:26.639 In this case, uh, over time, tradition really hurt the church because it veiled the gospel. 00:47:26.719 --> 00:47:53.280 And when you veil the gospel and you start saying, Well, you know what, you can buy indulgences and you can make penance and you can confess to the priest, and you can go to, you know, and marry and this exaltation of Mary is really, really weird because like you're you're taking very obscure passages and you're building your entire like network of how you come to the Lord, come to his throne of grace, and you're putting her up on this, and and she was a sinner, just like everybody. 00:47:53.440 --> 00:47:57.679 And that see, they believe in this the Immaculate

Conception thing is that she was sin. 00:47:58.079 --> 00:48:00.559 You know, they believe her to be like this. 00:48:00.800 --> 00:48:07.840 It's a really, really weird thing, and even hearing them explaining it biblically, it makes absolutely like, man, this is a big, big stretch. 00:48:08.000 --> 00:48:09.440 Um, makes you want to cover your ears. 00:48:09.599 --> 00:48:10.159 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:48:10.400 --> 00:48:10.880 Yeah, yeah. 00:48:11.440 --> 00:48:20.159 I'm not a theologian by any means, but when when I hear some of my friends who are uh Catholic talk about Mary, I'm like, dude, I'm like, I don't I don't see that in the scriptures. 00:48:20.320 --> 00:48:21.840 Like I don't see that in the Bible anywhere. 00:48:21.920 --> 00:48:25.119 Like I do feel like we are definitely separated in some theology. 00:48:25.280 --> 00:48:33.039 We might have the core doctrine of gospel there, but I feel like we're definitely separated by tradition and some theology. 00:48:33.199 --> 00:48:34.159 Catholics, yeah. 00:48:34.719 --> 00:48:36.639 We're not we're not here to say who's wrong. 00:48:36.800 --> 00:48:37.440 You know what I mean? 00:48:37.519 --> 00:48:44.480 We're not here to say like they're all you know Southern Badists who we identify with are the only right ones, but at the same time, why are we different? 00:48:44.880 --> 00:48:52.800 Well, that's what I want to jump into and like just as like uh pointing us towards what the back half of this episode. 00:48:52.960 --> 00:48:56.639 Uh what you just said, Richard, was I think was sorry, I pointed the mic. 00:48:56.800 --> 00:48:59.440 Um what you just said was the big thing for me. 00:48:59.599 --> 00:49:09.360 Uh that I think a lot of people coming in good faith with this question are really asking is the options as far as churches, what people have. 00:49:09.599 --> 00:49:21.119 A lot of times the question that again, if you're coming in good faith, if you're coming at like, well, looking at it like teams and competitive, then then you're obviously you pick the one that's gonna suit you best or the one you grew up with. 00:49:21.280 --> 00:49:39.599 But um, if the fountainhead of what you're looking for is does it everything that this church and this uh what they hold to as their title flow directly from the gospel and hold firmly to the doctrinal truths that I'm not willing to flinch on, then I can get down to these things that like what we're talking about. 00:49:39.760 --> 00:50:03.199 We've said this a couple of times in episodes in the past, that these ten, Catholic is probably the one where we are the most, like so many things kind of are trickled down the wrong direction from that fountain head that it's almost like at the baseline of it, you can have Christians who are born-again believers in that faith, but that have such a watered-down view of the gospel by the point by the time it gets to them. 00:50:03.440 --> 00:50:14.400 But like the question with all of these is like just like you just said, Blake, we're not saying, hey, this is the Southern Baptist podcast, this is why Southern Baptist is number one, and then number two is this one. 00:50:14.960 --> 00:50:24.239 It's uh because I I've I tell people all the time, I've had people who come from these different titles and say, no, this is you need to get in one of these churches. 00:50:24.480 --> 00:50:32.400 And I I think um all of us will be the first to say, hey, Southern Baptist isn't the church you have to go find a Southern Baptist church. 00:50:32.480 --> 00:50:40.880 A lot, there's a lot of these titles that we can say, hey, this non-denominational church is serving the Lord, and that could be exactly where God wants you to be. 00:50:41.119 --> 00:50:50.960 Kind of addressing like at what point in this trickle down is it like a these are deal breakers and these are not things that separate us from a relationship with the Lord. 00:50:51.119 --> 00:51:01.280 Yeah, which what concerns me, we talked about this the other day about Roman Catholic Church, is Jesus said himself that Christianity, Christians will be persecuted, they will not be liked, right? 00:51:01.360 --> 00:51:06.559 Christian, and we've seen Christianity suffer, we've seen martyrs for Christianity, countries don't allow Christianity. 00:51:06.880 --> 00:51:15.280 So for Christianity to be hated on to the point of death, why is it that we see Christian in a movie, right? 00:51:15.360 --> 00:51:22.559 We see a Christian in Hollywood, and they are the most whacked out, crazy, spouting out, typically it's always revelations, every time, the end time. 00:51:22.639 --> 00:51:28.159 There are these whack jobs, but every movie I ever see, somebody who's Catholic, oh, they're they're cool. 00:51:28.239 --> 00:51:29.119 It's cool to be Catholic. 00:51:29.199 --> 00:51:31.280 Nobody's threatened about a by a Catholic. 00:51:31.440 --> 00:51:32.159 So why is that? 00:51:32.239 --> 00:51:35.360 You know, why is the world not threatened by Catholicism? 00:51:35.599 --> 00:51:36.159 Yeah. 00:51:36.480 --> 00:51:39.760 Well, I so there's a lot of things that factor into that. 00:51:39.920 --> 00:51:44.960 It's like when we go over to Slovenia, uh, historically, they are still culturally Catholic. 00:51:45.119 --> 00:51:54.079 And so Andre always tells us the missionary there that we've been partnered with now for over a decade, that their ministry is seen as a sect. 00:51:54.559 --> 00:52:03.679 They don't that anything evangelical, and I know that's a big broad umbrella term, and sometimes when you use words, it means different things to different people. 00:52:03.920 --> 00:52:27.119 However, what we mean is the the umbrella of the Protestant faith, um historically confessed and documented, but when people see anything that breaks off from the Catholic Church, like in in that European context, they see it as a sect, they see it as um something that is not not a valid expression uh of the faith.

00:52:27.280 --> 00:52:30.480 They see that those are the people who sort of broke off and are doing their own thing. 00:52:30.559 --> 00:52:34.159 It's it's less than, it's second tier, it's it's not primary. 00:52:34.239 --> 00:52:52.079 And so uh culturally speaking, I I think that perception is embedded in in the psyche of people that um you know, because you do have you do have accounts where and people have just gone off the rails. 00:52:52.239 --> 00:53:10.880 And and again, this is part of the you know when you talk about there's good and bad in the Reformation, part of the bad is if you've you've got people who have developed entire you know theological frameworks and systems that are not consistent with the scriptures or the history of the church. 00:53:10.960 --> 00:53:20.000 And so, and they're the whack jobs, they're the people who who just have gone off the deep end and went down rabbit holes and they're have created all kinds of things. 00:53:20.159 --> 00:53:38.800 And so when that happens, it gives people the license that already take issue with the you know, you can prop them up as sort of the uh the poster boy of crazy and and it makes it's like anything else when you're trying to devalue or make something invalid, you you it's like a straw man argument. 00:53:38.880 --> 00:53:45.760 You you get the worst depiction of them and you put them up there as you know, they're they're that's an easy shot to take. 00:53:46.000 --> 00:53:56.079 And so I think in Hollywood and stuff like that, that's what happens, is you it's sort of like when the reporters go to the scenes of disasters or what something's happened and they literally get the craziest people to interview. 00:53:56.960 --> 00:53:58.559 That's anybody in Florida, though. 00:53:58.719 --> 00:53:59.920 They just look for somebody. 00:54:00.320 --> 00:54:02.800 So it's like this is what happens in the churches. 00:54:03.039 --> 00:54:07.360 So you you do get a lot of misrepresentation and a lot of misunderstanding as a result of that. 00:54:07.440 --> 00:54:19.039 But I read an interesting article or parts of it, and the the premise of it is really interesting, but it was talking about how you know what what causes people to choose different, you know, traditions or denominations. 00:54:19.840 --> 00:54:28.719 And I'm not surprised by this at all, but what they come to find out is it's really not theological convictions at all, it's more personalities. 00:54:28.960 --> 00:54:46.079 So, like when you ask me, like, because there's a trend of people moving back to sort of uh more transcendent expressions of the faith, like Greek Orthodox, or you talked about the mysticism and the iconography, which is like the iconography is like where you have these the veneration of the saints. 00:54:46.159 --> 00:54:49.119 And so if you go into like a Catholic church, it feels holy. 00:54:49.280 --> 00:54:59.440 If you go into Greek Orthodox, like the aestheticism of the surroundings and the sacraments and the priest in his garments, like it all feels really old and rooted. 00:54:59.599 --> 00:55:13.039 And so what's happening is a lot of people that have been bounced around from denomination to denomination or confused about about it, they're just like, Well, maybe I man, I want something that's historically solid and hasn't moved. 00:55:13.199 --> 00:55:26.239 And so a lot of people are considering and depending on their personalities, are going back or going to those expressions of the faith because it makes them feel safer. 00:55:26.320 --> 00:55:29.039 It they they feel like grounded in it, yeah. 00:55:29.119 --> 00:55:40.079 And and then I'm not I don't have to worry about you know the next you know guru pastor or podcast pastor or mega pastor going off in some crazy thing. 00:55:40.239 --> 00:56:00.800 And and so I get it, like I get the the draw that that has, but then you know the pendulum swings the other way because if you have a personality that hates tradition, that associates tradition with falsehood and um you know an abuse of power and all that stuff, then you're gonna swing more to the non-denomination, like don't give me any of that. 00:56:00.880 --> 00:56:04.719 Like I just want the the the real authentic expression, you know. 00:56:04.880 --> 00:56:17.679 And so you so what the article basically highlighted is we would like to think that people fall into these what whatever church they go to or denomination they affiliate with, that it's a deep theological conviction. 00:56:17.840 --> 00:56:20.000 The reality is for most people it's not. 00:56:20.079 --> 00:56:30.719 Yeah, they're not there for theological reasons, they're there because and they might not even recognize that in themselves, they might not even value that or or maybe be ashamed to say it. 00:56:30.800 --> 00:56:35.119 But the fact is a lot of people go to church where they go to church because it fits their personality. 00:56:35.519 --> 00:56:43.920 Again, talking about why we were different, you know, Catholics like I mean, it's like I don't really feel like we can be doing this and also believe the same. 00:56:44.079 --> 00:56:56.079 I I don't I don't see how the core is the same if we're still having to go to confession to make sure we're on the right side, and then also like, oh, sprinkle your children, christen them while they're young, and then they're good. 00:56:56.400 --> 00:57:00.239 Well, that didn't really start until the black plague, if I stand correct, right? 00:57:01.039 --> 00:57:30.239 Well, I mean, still I mean, even Presbyterians, like even ex even Protestant traditions, uh again, if you were to if you were to look at the breakdown historically and in terms of the population of the world and even of the church, most people, most Christians in the history of the church have been sprinkled, or that their their uh experience of baptism was when they were young and it was a a rite given to them as they were born into the church.

00:57:30.480 --> 00:57:37.920 It's actually more of a more newer, modern phenomenon of full immersion believers baptism. 00:57:38.159 --> 00:57:46.960 Now we would argue, going back to the scriptures, that that's where it began, and that's more of a rec uh a reclaiming of what Christ called us to do. 00:57:47.199 --> 00:57:53.760 But there's also a few texts in the in the book of Acts that Presbyterians would point to to say, well, their whole household was baptized. 00:57:53.920 --> 00:58:30.320 Like this is this was the pattern of the early church, and so there's a there's a separation there, and so but it's it's viewed, and really that's rooted in a more of a an expression of covenantal theology, which believes and holds to the fact that if your children are are born into a Christian household, that they are essentially when they are baptized, when they're when the church um uh basically uh gives them that adoption right coming into the church through through baptism uh as a child, they're they're seen as sort of like Christian and holding. 00:58:30.400 --> 00:58:32.559 Like they're they're they're there, but they're not there. 00:58:34.239 --> 00:58:34.480 Yeah. 00:58:34.559 --> 00:58:45.199 And so it's it's it is I I the way I operate is I have to be fully convinced from the scripture that this is uh the practice. 00:58:45.519 --> 00:58:55.760 And I I cannot um, you know, you can look at all those different texts, um, and you can and even Old Testament, like there's a there's a blend over. 00:58:55.920 --> 00:59:12.239 So when I say covenantal theology, it's it's an understanding holistically uh from the old covenant to the new covenant, like that continuity of what do we see in those patterns that still again still carry over into the New Testament life of the church. 00:59:12.559 --> 00:59:22.320 And so like when you see those texts where it talks about baptism and circumcision and the relation between the two, I just feel like they go too far in the text. 00:59:22.400 --> 00:59:32.239 I believe they they they see the continuity as too strict and they hold to this idea that well, because listen, I I've I have five kids. 00:59:32.320 --> 00:59:35.840 I want to believe that they're all gonna be Christian and they're all gonna love Jesus. 00:59:36.000 --> 00:59:55.360 I mean, no, I understand that, and I understand in the life of the church as a family, like you want to recognize when children are born into Christian homes as as they belong to the church, like you you want to you know have the the moment where you can set them apart and say, yes, they belong to the Lord. 00:59:55.519 --> 01:00:09.039 And however, yeah, the danger is the danger is is that you are doing something superficially that is not a work of the spirit in their heart, and it's it's not their faith. 01:00:09.280 --> 01:00:12.079 And so to you can really confuse a child too. 01:00:12.480 --> 01:00:13.679 Yeah, it creates that false. 01:00:14.000 --> 01:00:15.280 I mean, I've seen it in the Baptist church. 01:00:15.599 --> 01:00:18.159 Listen, Baptists, Baptists do that in a different way. 01:00:18.400 --> 01:00:18.960 Yeah, oh yeah. 01:00:19.440 --> 01:00:32.960 Instead of sprinkling them, what we do is we take little four-year-old preschooler that doesn't have any concept of sin, they've never been convicted of sin, but because they can say the ABCs and recite things, it it becomes like a rite of passage, baptism. 01:00:33.039 --> 01:00:38.719 We just delay it instead of doing it when they're babies, we do it when they're four and five years old, and we think we're doing something really great. 01:00:38.880 --> 01:00:56.000 And what happens is I've I've counseled with these families over the years, is these people are confused because they thought they had something they didn't have and now they're struggling, yeah, and they think they're struggling in their faith, but really that God's trying to save them, like the spirit's trying to convict them of their sins so they can repent and believe the gospel. 01:00:56.239 --> 01:00:58.000 That's literally been each and one of our testimonies. 01:00:58.639 --> 01:00:59.280 That's my testimony. 01:00:59.360 --> 01:01:00.480 So in each one of ours. 01:01:00.719 --> 01:01:02.880 You know, so we we've done a horrible job of that. 01:01:03.039 --> 01:01:12.960 And again, that but that's more of a like, even if you look at all of these that you had on the list, like all of the mainline uh Protestant denominations, they've changed over time. 01:01:13.360 --> 01:01:17.599 And even the Catholic Church today is not what it was in the second century. 01:01:17.840 --> 01:01:27.360 Like it it it's so to say, well, we're all divided, listen, even if we were all still under what the Catholic banner, that church has changed over 2,000 years. 01:01:27.440 --> 01:01:32.719 It's it's a simple, it's not even hardly a semblance of what it was, you know, 18, 1700 years ago. 01:01:32.880 --> 01:01:39.280 And so it's easy to nitpick and and it's easy to you know throw rocks and say, Well, look how divided you are. 01:01:39.360 --> 01:02:11.280 Like if we were all under the same banner, there would still be, I would rather, I guess what I'm saying is if looking historically at how everything's shaked out, I would rather be a Southern Baptist with its own, you know, needs to constantly reassess and re-evaluate and get back to the gospel than being under a banner which is so far away from the gospel that it's it's you're barely hanging on to your Christian your ability to say you're a Christian. 01:02:11.440 --> 01:02:17.280 Like, yeah, we have our junk, but man, I I'd rather be where I am now than where I would have been. 01:02:17.440 --> 01:02:17.920 Yeah, you know. 01:02:18.079 --> 01:02:18.400 Oh, yeah. 01:02:18.639 --> 01:02:28.400 I think uh I think what we see in like in today's age, like our generation and then the newer generation that's coming up, we don't see like the traditions.

01:02:28.559 --> 01:02:32.159 We always hear like oh these traditions are these traditions. 01:02:32.400 --> 01:02:36.719 We are going forth and we we see that we've always done it this way. 01:02:36.960 --> 01:02:42.320 I feel like our the younger generation doesn't like that that phrase, we've always done it this way. 01:02:42.639 --> 01:02:50.400 They they want to see something different or see like what why do I need to you know say this prayer before I enter like temple or whatever. 01:02:50.559 --> 01:02:51.360 Well, it's like show me. 01:02:51.440 --> 01:02:53.840 Yeah, it's like well the I want to see the facts. 01:02:53.920 --> 01:03:06.480 Yeah, and I feel like that's what the non-denomination is really coming out, and like I'm not supporting that at all, but I'm just saying like that's what there's I think that's uh that turn is to see, oh, they don't do this, this, and that. 01:03:07.519 --> 01:03:15.599 The warning, however, is if you if you're in a part of a non-denominational uh group or church, I would I would ask the question, why? 01:03:16.079 --> 01:03:18.239 Why don't you why don't you associate? 01:03:18.400 --> 01:03:36.159 Why there needs to be uh you know, the warning I would give to anybody is if your tradition if your denomination doesn't have a stated doctrinal statement and a confession of the faith, if they cannot articulate what they believe and why they believe it, then you're you're in a very, very dangerous place. 01:03:36.239 --> 01:03:39.519 Because it sounds really cool to say, well, I'm not I'm not a denomination. 01:03:39.679 --> 01:03:42.639 I don't, you know, I'm not, I don't want to, because I get it. 01:03:42.800 --> 01:03:47.039 I get that like Baptist, there's a stereotype, there's a stigma associated with everybody, though. 01:03:47.119 --> 01:03:48.079 There's a stigma with everybody. 01:03:48.320 --> 01:03:48.960 Exactly. 01:03:49.199 --> 01:03:50.880 However, you got to get past that. 01:03:51.039 --> 01:03:52.639 You've got to you've got to do that. 01:03:52.719 --> 01:03:55.280 You've got to say, okay, what what does that mean? 01:03:55.360 --> 01:03:56.559 What does it mean you're a Baptist? 01:03:56.639 --> 01:03:57.679 Like, what are your distinctives? 01:03:58.079 --> 01:03:59.920 Why, why do you believe what you believe? 01:04:00.079 --> 01:04:01.519 Show me in scripture. 01:04:01.840 --> 01:04:14.000 And because non-denominational churches are trying to get away from the stigma, but they're also getting away from the roots of the Christian faith, of then you're in, you're in a dangerous place where anything goes. 01:04:14.159 --> 01:04:21.760 And what you've seen with a lot of non-denominational churches that stand on their own is they don't have a history of outliving themselves. 01:04:21.920 --> 01:04:28.960 Like they don't live beyond one generation, the the personality or the brand or or whatever they built themselves on. 01:04:29.199 --> 01:04:42.960 And so you want to you want to be able to have uh a true assurance that what I believe, there's a historical pattern and root here that outlives one or two generations. 01:04:43.119 --> 01:05:06.480 Like you want to know that it actually is consistent with scripture because like listen, even in the last 10, 15, 20 years, like the Methodist Church, the Presbyterian Church, like there's been major schisms because they've abandoned their historical confessions and now they're fragmenting even interdenominationally among themselves. 01:05:06.800 --> 01:05:28.000 And so um there's always a danger of if you don't know, if you don't have a historical stated a document that says this doctrinally is where we stand, then inevitably you're gonna, whether it's your kids, your grandkids, somebody's gonna, there's gonna be a you're gonna you're gonna miss it, man. 01:05:28.079 --> 01:05:34.320 You're gonna you're gonna miss the bullseye of the gospel and you're gonna you're gonna fall off into all kinds of myths and and crazy stuff. 01:05:34.400 --> 01:05:36.719 And so I was reading a quote by C. 01:05:36.800 --> 01:05:36.880 S. 01:05:36.960 --> 01:05:38.400 Lewis the other day, which I know C. 01:05:38.559 --> 01:05:38.639 S. 01:05:38.719 --> 01:05:40.719 Lewis is dead and been dead for a while. 01:05:40.800 --> 01:05:42.000 A lot of his works are old. 01:05:42.159 --> 01:05:44.960 I think it's so crazy how the Lord has given him insight. 01:05:45.280 --> 01:05:57.199 Because so much of what he says in the past, during World War II, he talked about how the younger generation, and if it fits perfect, is constantly seeking fact. 01:05:57.519 --> 01:05:59.679 And we've been told this growing up that the best way. 01:06:00.159 --> 01:06:03.760 To spread Christianity is just be real, be a real person, right? 01:06:04.000 --> 01:06:09.519 Be genuine because so much of the world is fake and so much of the world is lies. 01:06:09.679 --> 01:06:11.280 And so they are seeking truth. 01:06:11.360 --> 01:06:14.559 And then on top of that, so that's why they're asking so many questions. 01:06:14.800 --> 01:06:16.800 That's why they want to know why do we do this? 01:06:17.280 --> 01:06:18.559 Tell me why we do it. 01:06:18.719 --> 01:06:22.880 Show me, you know, the facts, show me because they want to nail down that I'm not being lied to. 01:06:23.039 --> 01:06:28.159 But then the other thing was he talked about how I identify with this group, right? 01:06:28.320 --> 01:06:30.400 Because that group, like you said, has stigmas. 01:06:30.480 --> 01:06:32.559 So I want to create my own thing, right? 01:06:32.719 --> 01:06:35.440 Because I don't want the negatives, I just want the positives. 01:06:35.599 --> 01:06:37.360 And so it's causing divide. 01:06:37.599 --> 01:06:44.800 Um but what's foolish about that is everybody that thinks that they're not the first you're not the first one that's thought that. 01:06:45.119 --> 01:06:52.559 Where do you think Lutheran and Presbyter, all these denominations came

from the conviction of we need to do it the right way? 01:06:52.800 --> 01:06:59.519 And and so that's what's funny to me about non-denominational, like that, because you are a denomination. 01:07:00.159 --> 01:07:02.239 That called yourself we don't have a denomination. 01:07:05.519 --> 01:07:08.239 And that's the thing, you can't escape it. 01:07:08.559 --> 01:07:23.519 The only thing you can you can do and commit yourself to in every generation is no matter what your your denominational heading or banner or tradition or what whatever you align with, is is to is to fight to contend for the faith once delivered to the saints. 01:07:23.679 --> 01:07:27.760 That's what we're called to do in every generation, no matter your denomination. 01:07:28.079 --> 01:07:36.000 And um because you are going to have you're gonna be, you know, you're gonna have a stated belief system. 01:07:36.159 --> 01:07:38.800 No, and so there's no such thing as non-denominational. 01:07:39.119 --> 01:07:44.320 During my time of traveling, I've been to multiple non-denominational churches, and I don't mind. 01:07:44.559 --> 01:07:46.400 I'm a people person, I'll talk, it doesn't matter. 01:07:46.480 --> 01:07:47.760 I'm not an embarrassed. 01:07:47.840 --> 01:07:48.079 Oh, yeah. 01:07:48.400 --> 01:07:48.800 We know. 01:07:49.039 --> 01:07:51.280 So I go up and I I can't help myself. 01:07:51.360 --> 01:07:54.719 I go and ask the pastor every time I go there, right? 01:07:54.960 --> 01:07:57.760 Or I'll ask somebody who I'm there visiting with this their church. 01:07:57.840 --> 01:08:00.000 I'm like, you're saying you're non-denominational. 01:08:00.159 --> 01:08:01.360 Who would you identify with? 01:08:01.440 --> 01:08:02.719 Like, what are your doctrines? 01:08:02.800 --> 01:08:03.760 What's your theology? 01:08:03.920 --> 01:08:05.679 And I ask them that because I want to know. 01:08:05.920 --> 01:08:12.400 And nine times out of ten, instead of giving me theology and giving me doctrine, they just go, We'd probably be most similar to Baptist. 01:08:12.719 --> 01:08:12.880 Yeah. 01:08:13.039 --> 01:08:22.399 And so it's like, the one I just think that's the liberal that's the running joke about non-denominational, is like they've they've all they basically are Baptists, they just don't want the stigma. 01:08:23.039 --> 01:08:24.560 Closet Baptists, closet baptists. 01:08:24.800 --> 01:08:33.039 But again, the danger is when you do that, when you divorce yourself from any affiliation with a stated historical confession, you open yourself up. 01:08:33.199 --> 01:08:35.039 Because what happens is you think it's really cool. 01:08:35.119 --> 01:08:46.560 I'm gonna because all these expats from all these Baptist churches, like I'm we're talking about in a southern context, so we're just using this as a case study, and we're gonna draw all these, because it is true, like people are that's an appeal to people. 01:08:46.640 --> 01:08:53.600 Like people are drawn to if they've grown up in, you know, stiff-necked church number one in town, like they're ready to find something different. 01:08:53.680 --> 01:09:00.560 And so if a church pops up, we're not, we're not, you know, any denomination, we're this, they see it as like a breath of fresh air. 01:09:00.640 --> 01:09:06.720 Like, I can go and get away from all this tradition and all this stiff-necked stuff, and we can just be real, we can be free. 01:09:06.880 --> 01:09:14.560 Well, five years into it, you find out that those people there are the same as first church down because it's human problems, these are human issues. 01:09:14.720 --> 01:09:31.119 The you can't escape it, and so you you gotta just and once you figure that out, you can either get really discouraged and just leave the church altogether, which a lot of people have done and do, or you can get really serious about the faith and be really involved in your church and see it grow and be healthy and and flourish. 01:09:31.279 --> 01:09:33.359 And that's what I've committed myself to do. 01:09:33.520 --> 01:09:48.640 Like, you know, I don't, I don't, I don't have a dog in the race when it comes to denominational fidelity, uh, but I do have a dog in the race when it comes to being a genuine Christian who loves the Lord, who's gonna stand before him one day and give an account for the sheep that God has entrusted to me. 01:09:48.800 --> 01:09:57.439 So um it just so happens, and I'm proud to be a Southern Baptist in the sense that we haven't had any, we don't haven't had a major like schism. 01:09:57.600 --> 01:10:03.600 We haven't we we believe that the scriptures are still the authority for the church. 01:10:03.920 --> 01:10:07.760 And as long as we're doing that, then I'm I'm cool with it. 01:10:07.840 --> 01:10:08.479 Yeah, yeah. 01:10:08.720 --> 01:10:13.520 It wasn't until I was studying for this that I found that like um Baptist. 01:10:13.840 --> 01:10:20.239 I didn't know that a lot of people looked at us different because we apparently are big on the personal relationship with Christ. 01:10:20.800 --> 01:10:23.520 And um, when you assemble, you assemble as Christians, right? 01:10:23.600 --> 01:10:27.920 It's not the churches in the building, which you look at Catholics, they put a lot of money into the buildings, right? 01:10:28.000 --> 01:10:28.960 So it is the building. 01:10:29.119 --> 01:10:33.199 Um, but we put into personal relationship, and and that is key. 01:10:33.439 --> 01:10:36.640 And also like when we vote, like we are the body, right? 01:10:36.720 --> 01:10:45.760 The body has a congregational polity, meaning that we're not, you know, strictly like I I lead, but I'm not a dictator. 01:10:46.399 --> 01:10:50.399 And if I lead well, the congregation will reflect that leadership. 01:10:50.560 --> 01:11:08.159 And so for the most part, there's peace and harmony because even in congregational life, you have elders, you have the pastors that are leading the church, and if he's doing a

good job, and when I say a good job, if he's faithful, he's leading well, he knows the flock, he he's faithful to the text. 01:11:08.399 --> 01:11:17.680 For the most part, the church in voting are affirming essentially that they that they trust their pastor and they're in alignment with him. 01:11:18.079 --> 01:11:23.359 Like since I've been here six years, we haven't had like we haven't had issues. 01:11:24.079 --> 01:11:24.720 It's easy. 01:11:24.880 --> 01:11:26.640 This is an easy church to lead. 01:11:26.880 --> 01:11:34.640 And so we we we get after it and we go, and but at the same time, it's always known this is how we function. 01:11:34.720 --> 01:11:45.199 It's it's interrelational between the pastor and the people, and um, there's not this massive separation between clergy and laity um that we are assembled together. 01:11:45.279 --> 01:11:59.039 I have a very distinct role in the ministry of the word and the authority entrusted to me to shepherd the church under under that that that vocation, that work of the word, and um, and the life of the church should flourish as a result. 01:11:59.199 --> 01:12:03.760 So one of the distinctives of Baptist life is that, yeah, there's congregational polity. 01:12:03.920 --> 01:12:19.680 Every church is autonomous, meaning that unlike a Presbyterian or Methodist model or Episcopalian model or some of these other ones, where you have sort of a hierarchy built into the church that everybody answers to, and the church properties all belong to this you know big conglomeration. 01:12:19.920 --> 01:12:23.279 Again, there's nothing wrong with that, these are minor second-tier issues. 01:12:23.520 --> 01:12:28.560 Um, and there's pros and cons to both, I'll say that, and that's probably for another episode. 01:12:28.720 --> 01:12:33.119 But yeah, for for us, one of our main distinctives is that every church is autonomous. 01:12:33.199 --> 01:12:40.720 Uh, we're united, we assemble, we cooperate together under a confessional document and that identifies us as such. 01:12:40.960 --> 01:12:46.079 But then inside the life of the church, um, we are congregationalists. 01:12:46.159 --> 01:12:56.960 We're not we're elder led, not elder ruled, meaning that um, you know, us as pastors, we don't rule with in such a way that what we say dictates and determines the direction of the church. 01:12:57.119 --> 01:13:13.439 However, there's strong emphasis on our leadership so that if we are leading well, that congregational polity will uh come under that leadership and it will be a very easy, seamless way in which to accomplish the mission God's given us to do. 01:13:13.520 --> 01:13:13.600 Yeah. 01:13:14.000 --> 01:13:16.239 Now, what would you say about the denominations out there? 01:13:16.319 --> 01:13:23.520 So, like we as Baptists, Southern Baptists, uh, whatever you want to call it, we believe Father, Son, Holy Spirit. 01:13:24.239 --> 01:13:26.720 They're persons, three separate persons of the Trinity. 01:13:27.039 --> 01:13:46.560 We have one God, undivided, united, just like the creeds say, going back to the Apostle Nicene's Creed Nicene Creed, that we believe that God is indivisible, that the Father, Son, and Spirit are all eternal, uh, all equally God and at the same time, but distinctly the person of the Spirit, the Son, and the Father. 01:13:46.720 --> 01:13:49.840 Um, there's never been a time when there hasn't been a triune God. 01:13:50.399 --> 01:13:56.880 So that's just really important that there's there's no division within the Godhead at all. 01:13:57.439 --> 01:14:02.640 And there's now there's some denominations that do believe that that they are not the same. 01:14:02.960 --> 01:14:06.960 Or at least one comes, one answer, like the Holy Spirit answers only to the Father. 01:14:07.279 --> 01:14:18.640 I know that that's um like Eastern Orthodox believe that, like So there there are there's uh there's a funny little uh video, um, I think it's called Lutheran Satire. 01:14:18.720 --> 01:14:22.640 I don't know if y'all are familiar with them, but they put out on you can go on YouTube and look it up. 01:14:22.880 --> 01:14:52.159 Lutheran Satire puts out these little uh cartoon videos about the Trinity and the different views historically, like modalism and and all the different and uh to be honest, a lot of those early councils that came together and convened to iron out the trinity was that was like the main bat that was like the main um departure from the faith for a lot of what was being taught was understanding who God is as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. 01:14:52.479 --> 01:15:12.159 And um, so I would say most people in Protestant churches cannot articulate the Trinity, but they believe it, which is really sad because I I think I think this is a weakness even among bath Baptist traditions, is we say we hold to the Trinity, but a lot of people don't know why. 01:15:12.479 --> 01:15:33.760 That's why this fall we're going through a discipleship training course and the book we're going through by Michael Reeves is delighting in the Trinity, because I think that's a essential uh faith conviction that a Christian has to have, because that's what separates you from being a Christian from any other sort of sect or cult or any other thing. 01:15:33.920 --> 01:15:44.239 If you don't have an understanding of who God, the Christian God is as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, then that's what really that's the deviation, that's the departure from the faith. 01:15:44.479 --> 01:15:54.079 Um the doctrine of God is a non-negotiable, you know, if you if you don't believe in that thing, you believe in a different God, not the God of the Bible. 01:15:54.399 --> 01:16:12.720 And so um, so yes, we we hold to the tr that's why I meant mentioned earlier about even the Catholic church has changed a lot over the years because like if if you if you go back, it's funny to say this, but like even Augustine, he was more closely aligned with a Baptist than he

was a Catholic. 01:16:12.880 --> 01:16:24.880 Like if you're if you're to think what we the modern like what we behold to be true as far as the gospel goes, like Augustine was more of a gospel guy than than the than the modern Catholic Church. 01:16:24.960 --> 01:16:35.920 And so, yeah, if you if you go all the way back to the earliest confessions of how what we bel who we believe God to be, we as Baptists hold to those confessions. 01:16:36.159 --> 01:16:36.720 Yeah. 01:16:36.960 --> 01:16:51.039 Yeah, because it's it's crazy to see like you talk about that eternal issue, and talking about like Lutherans, Lutherans they believe that like baptism saves, and then also like they separate law and gospel. 01:16:51.199 --> 01:16:52.800 They believe the Bible split down the middle. 01:16:52.880 --> 01:17:05.680 You've got law and you've got gospel, and so it's like you have to follow the law, um, every bit of the law, and that that plays a key part in it, and then the gospel kind of is with it, but the law is important, yeah. 01:17:05.840 --> 01:17:25.039 So there's a lot of splitting hairs in a lot of these because they you when you look back historically, like these guys, a lot of these reformers were were friends and then they became enemies because and it was all over like passionate arguments about where they stood and what they believed the gospel you know or the scriptures taught. 01:17:25.279 --> 01:17:28.399 But if you really get down to it, they were all on the same rock. 01:17:28.720 --> 01:17:29.199 Same team, yeah. 01:17:29.359 --> 01:17:30.640 Yeah, they were all on the same rock. 01:17:30.800 --> 01:17:39.199 But I do have a question, and this is is sorry to jump into like our uh format, but I think looking at these, and I and I look at this list and a format. 01:17:39.359 --> 01:17:41.600 I had a format, but I've just been letting him we're cooking. 01:17:42.000 --> 01:17:43.840 I've been letting him go because he answers things. 01:17:44.159 --> 01:17:44.880 Yeah, we're just gonna go. 01:17:45.600 --> 01:17:46.399 I'm just letting him go. 01:17:46.640 --> 01:18:09.600 Well, uh the big question I think that we've had well, we have we've had two, and I but the the biggest one I think that we've tried to wrestle with as far as looking at it biblically and then through the lens of denominational differences on the view is and this is this is the probably the biggest one we'll talk about, is the stance that these different denominations have on whether or not you can lose your salvation. 01:18:10.159 --> 01:18:13.039 And obviously, we don't believe you can. 01:18:13.119 --> 01:18:19.680 Um, and we talked about that for a long part of an episode already, but just kind of that's my question to you. 01:18:19.760 --> 01:18:25.600 Kind of just like to that's one that's not only we feel strong, but we've had a lot of people be like, hey, that's a big deal. 01:18:25.840 --> 01:18:28.000 And and uh I'll to answer that. 01:18:28.079 --> 01:18:29.600

See, that's a back-ended question. 01:18:29.680 --> 01:18:32.159 The back-ended is can I lose my salvation? 01:18:32.319 --> 01:18:36.159 Well, we have to ask a better question: how do you earn how do you earn your salvation? 01:18:36.319 --> 01:18:38.479 Well, the answer biblically is you can't earn it. 01:18:38.720 --> 01:18:43.920 If you can't earn it, if you can't do anything to lay hold of it, then how can you then loosen your grip to forfeit it? 01:18:44.000 --> 01:18:49.920 Yeah, and and so a lot of the confusion around that is it's a man-centered understanding of salvation. 01:18:50.000 --> 01:19:06.560 It believes that we can aspire or sort of pursue God, and then you know, once we get to a certain point, then there's this um moment where you know we lay hold of God and and now we're good until we let go of him. 01:19:07.199 --> 01:19:11.680 Well, it's it's that's not the mystery that's revealed to us in scripture. 01:19:12.079 --> 01:19:39.600 The Bible tells us that we're all dead in our sin and trespasses, that we're made alive through Christ, that the Spirit of God regenerates the heart, that we are new creations, that all the language of the New Testament goes into great detail to deconstruct this notion that is inherent to every person that we must do something we have because it the Bible's clear there's no boasting. 01:19:39.760 --> 01:19:43.840 There's none of us can boast in our salvation, none of us can be prideful. 01:19:43.920 --> 01:19:50.640 It cannot be salvation is a source of thanksgiving, of gratitude, of rejoicing, because it's something that has happened to us. 01:19:50.720 --> 01:19:53.039 We have been saved by grace. 01:19:53.199 --> 01:19:54.479 Yeah, we have not done it. 01:19:54.560 --> 01:20:03.600 And so when you really have a full grasp of on the front end, like what is salvation, like what actually happens. 01:20:03.840 --> 01:20:10.560 Well, the word is proclaimed, the Spirit of God opens your heart to see the glory of Christ. 01:20:10.800 --> 01:20:18.800 He's the one who has atoned for sin, he's the one who is bled, so that he is both the the founder and the perfecter of our faith in every way. 01:20:19.039 --> 01:20:23.039 That there is we have thousands of years of history talking about law and gospel. 01:20:23.119 --> 01:20:40.159 Like that's what the per the law is gospel, but the purpose of the law was to show us that you can give us a perfect law, you can give us perfect conditions, you can put strike fear in our heart, you can do all of those things, and we will still deny the Lord. 01:20:40.239 --> 01:20:42.319 We will still, we are still faithless. 01:20:42.560 --> 01:20:52.479 And so all of the Old Testament, uh, the Galatians says it's our schoolmaster, it's our tutor, it's preparing, it's helping us to receive when Christ comes the fullness of his grace. 01:20:52.560 --> 01:21:10.319 And so when you understand that my salvation is predicated fully upon God's work in eternity past and at the finished work of the cross, then I understand that I'm saved and held and kept by him, and that the work that he's done in me, he is going to be faithful to complete it. 01:21:10.399 --> 01:21:25.920 That that if I'm a born again, if I'm a new creation in Christ, there is a living spirit in me that will continue to shape me, conform me, make me to all the way until the end where he brings me safely into his kingdom and I'm glorified. 01:21:26.239 --> 01:21:27.760 He's sanctifying me all the way. 01:21:27.920 --> 01:21:36.800 So when you understand that the full work and scope of my salvation is due all to grace, then you never you're not gonna wrestle with that question on the back end. 01:21:36.880 --> 01:21:52.960 Well, I guess I can because that because even that question comes from a place of of self-preservation, that that I I see salvation as as me trying to preserve life in of myself, and it's not worshipful at all. 01:21:53.119 --> 01:22:08.479 And it robs people, people don't even realize how it cuts them off from the ability to do the very thing that Christ came in the world to do, so that we can enjoy fellowship with the Father and be reconciled and enjoy life with him forever, which comes out of the Westminster Confession. 01:22:08.720 --> 01:22:12.640 Like this was uh an understood, like early, early on in the Reformation. 01:22:12.720 --> 01:22:21.600 This was part of the reclamation of the gospel is that man, these questions of losing your salvation, these things came up years and years and years later. 01:22:21.760 --> 01:22:28.079 Um, and again, it's just it's a misunderstanding of the nature of of what happens when I'm saved. 01:22:28.239 --> 01:22:33.039 Yeah, so yeah, you can't lose your salvation simply because you can't earn it. 01:22:33.199 --> 01:22:33.439 Yeah. 01:22:33.680 --> 01:22:39.279 So when you take yourself, you remove yourself out of the equation like that, um, it becomes clear. 01:22:39.359 --> 01:22:54.000 And and again, we can go back and that might be another episode for another day because well, we had yeah, and I know we're about to lose you that we've had people reach out to us, and of course, it's it's been uh Pentecostal friends reaching out and having this conversation, but and they've been awesome, by the way. 01:22:54.159 --> 01:22:56.159 They have been great, not rude at all, but it's been good. 01:22:56.399 --> 01:22:57.439 And listen, I get discussion. 01:22:57.760 --> 01:23:13.039 And this is why I'm saying I could get I my wife grew up in a faith tradition where that you know they were big on you know baptismal regeneration, you having to get, you know, that's that's when you come into the faith is when you get dunked, and then uh but you have to hold on to it your whole life. 01:23:13.199 --> 01:23:22.479 And I'm just telling you, I've I've known these, they're they're miserable in their faith walk, and the reason why is because they've they've really they've missed the heart of the gospel.

01:23:22.720 --> 01:23:29.760 And so, but I understand when I've taught to them the notion is well, you Baptists just believe you can just do whatever you want, and you never lose your salvation. 01:23:30.159 --> 01:23:32.640 That's just cheap, cheap grace, cheap grace, cheap grace. 01:23:32.720 --> 01:23:38.079 I'm like, no, stop thinking, remove, remove these assumptions out of the way. 01:23:38.239 --> 01:23:48.159 And when you look at the text and you understand that a person that is born again is a new creation, and that the Holy Spirit reigns in that person and begins to sh. 01:23:48.560 --> 01:23:50.880 It's it's not me trying to get away with it. 01:23:51.119 --> 01:24:00.399 Grace does not pardon us, and it's not some weak, sort of passive, you know, we're just gonna turn away and Christ took care of everything. 01:24:00.479 --> 01:24:04.560 And you don't know man, grace produces holiness in the life of a believer. 01:24:04.720 --> 01:24:07.039 And I will I and and here's the irony. 01:24:07.199 --> 01:24:14.560 I take I look at a people, I look at people in my experience that hold to this idea of you can lose your salvation. 01:24:15.279 --> 01:24:18.000 If that's true, I'm losing it every day. 01:24:18.239 --> 01:24:18.560 Yep. 01:24:18.960 --> 01:24:39.279 And if that's true, and if that's true, you they've lost it a long time ago because I most of those people that hold to that view and those traditions, it's not like holiness for a lot a lot of them, and that's that's the irony of that that kind of theology is you're trying to in your flesh do something that only the spirit can do in your life, supernatural thing, yeah. 01:24:39.359 --> 01:24:42.880 It's like all of salvation is is is divine, it's otherworldly. 01:24:42.960 --> 01:24:45.359 Like you can't produce this life on your own. 01:24:45.520 --> 01:24:48.479 The whole New Testament goes to war against that. 01:24:48.720 --> 01:25:00.319 And so, but it the the I can respect the notion that because a lot of them feel like, well, Jesus did so much, I I can't just have this view that I can just live and do whatever I want. 01:25:00.479 --> 01:25:01.920 Well, nobody's ever said that. 01:25:02.000 --> 01:25:07.359 And grace, grace doesn't give you the past, it's not a hall pass to do whatever you want until you die. 01:25:07.840 --> 01:25:09.199 That's what we kept trying to communicate. 01:25:09.359 --> 01:25:10.560 That's butchering the gospel. 01:25:10.720 --> 01:25:11.520 Yeah, well, that's what we have. 01:25:11.680 --> 01:25:12.239 We we talked about it. 01:25:12.319 --> 01:25:13.680 We talk about the heart change. 01:25:13.840 --> 01:25:19.439 Because immediately when you say that, the thing thrown at us, the phrase is once saved, always saved. 01:25:19.520 --> 01:25:20.560 You just do whatever you want. 01:25:20.880 --> 01:25:22.399 No, no, that's not what we're saying. 01:25:22.479 --> 01:25:24.640 There is not like we baptize people like that. 01:25:24.880 --> 01:25:26.479 Okay, once saved, always saved. 01:25:26.640 --> 01:25:31.279 Yeah, like when you go into the water like we're baptizing them, and and this is you're good now. 01:25:31.439 --> 01:25:35.199 Like, no, this is the beginning of a life of worship. 01:25:35.359 --> 01:25:42.560 And so, again, there's just a lot of holes and a lot of misunderstanding of the nature of the gospel that lead you to those conclusions. 01:25:42.720 --> 01:25:51.680 And I've seen them, and again, I can respect the surface level notion of like, well, you know what, I've got to do everything I can because Jesus did everything for me. 01:25:51.840 --> 01:25:52.560 That's great. 01:25:52.640 --> 01:25:54.319 That it, but you know where that comes from? 01:25:54.479 --> 01:25:54.960 The spirit. 01:25:55.119 --> 01:25:55.760 Yeah, yeah. 01:25:56.960 --> 01:25:59.039 So it's a work of gracing your life. 01:25:59.279 --> 01:26:04.159 There's there's gonna be people from all denominations from all sorts that are gonna be in heaven, right? 01:26:04.319 --> 01:26:05.600 Uh yeah, yeah, yeah. 01:26:05.680 --> 01:26:07.199 We're we don't have to worry about that. 01:26:07.279 --> 01:26:09.279 Like I said, we're not here to prove who's right. 01:26:09.359 --> 01:26:13.279 And also, people from all sorts of different religions are gonna be here in heaven. 01:26:13.359 --> 01:26:16.880 And we're not gonna, you know, it's not that somebody's right, somebody's wrong. 01:26:17.039 --> 01:26:20.560 Um, and we were also talking about people who are worried about losing their salvation. 01:26:20.720 --> 01:26:21.359 You can't. 01:26:21.520 --> 01:26:25.199 So even though they're worried about it, you can't, but at the same time, we talked about it. 01:26:25.279 --> 01:26:28.159 We you're gonna live a whole lot more stressful life than we are, right? 01:26:28.239 --> 01:26:28.800 You know what I mean? 01:26:28.960 --> 01:26:29.760 By living in that. 01:26:29.920 --> 01:26:32.880 So I wish that they had that freedom, but they're just gonna be stressed out till the end. 01:26:33.039 --> 01:26:40.560 And I'll I'll I'll do a mic drop on this one because I got to get, but it's also understanding what actually happened at the cross. 01:26:40.880 --> 01:26:42.399 He actually paid it all. 01:26:42.560 --> 01:26:42.880 Yep. 01:26:43.039 --> 01:26:51.760 And and his atonement is diminished when we think that we are stronger, that our sin is stronger than what he paid and he died for. 01:26:52.000 --> 01:26:58.560 And I know you can look at that from the other side and say, well, because he paid it all, we need to do our, you know, I understand the notion. 01:26:58.640 --> 01:27:02.079 I'm just it's a misplaced con it's a misplaced desire. 01:27:02.239 --> 01:27:06.239 I I appreciate the desire to want to live a holy life and a godly life. 01:27:06.479 --> 01:27:17.600 But if you're doing it for the sake of self-preservation or paying him back, or then you've you've stepped away from the glory

that is seen at the cross. 01:27:17.840 --> 01:27:18.319 Appreciate it. 01:27:18.720 --> 01:27:19.119 Thanks, Richard. 01:27:19.279 --> 01:27:20.960 Richard into this training. 01:27:21.600 --> 01:27:21.840 You're good. 01:27:22.079 --> 01:27:22.560 Thank you so much. 01:27:22.880 --> 01:27:23.520 Thank you, sir. 01:27:23.760 --> 01:27:26.720 I um I'm so glad we were able to have him on. 01:27:26.880 --> 01:27:28.239 Um, we love you guys. 01:27:28.319 --> 01:27:31.680 We thank you all so much for uh listening and being faithful in this podcast. 01:27:31.920 --> 01:27:37.119 Um, right before we cut, I do want to say uh Richard, Richard, like I said, was awesome. 01:27:37.359 --> 01:27:38.960 So thankful that we got to interview him. 01:27:39.039 --> 01:27:42.560 Um he's got his own podcast with Madison Street Baptist Church that he's gonna be. 01:27:42.640 --> 01:27:44.560 Yeah, they do, they do uh Mondays at Madison. 01:27:44.720 --> 01:27:45.600 Go check that out. 01:27:45.680 --> 01:27:47.119 Uh check out the church. 01:27:47.199 --> 01:27:49.680 He's an awesome, he's an awesome man of God. 01:27:49.760 --> 01:27:50.880 He's a great pastor. 01:27:51.039 --> 01:27:56.479 Um all of the resources that come from his church, his podcast, go check them out. 01:27:56.560 --> 01:27:57.119 They're awesome. 01:27:57.199 --> 01:27:58.159 Maybe we appreciate them. 01:27:58.319 --> 01:27:59.199 Definitely, definitely. 01:27:59.279 --> 01:28:00.640 We thank you all so much for listening. 01:28:00.800 --> 01:28:04.880 Um, like we said always, share this with a friend, share with a family member. 01:28:05.039 --> 01:28:06.479 We are not trying to be famous. 01:28:06.560 --> 01:28:12.399 I hate there's a part of me in my brain that whenever I give that plug, it's just like it sounds like we're trying to get attention. 01:28:12.640 --> 01:28:17.039 But the whole point of this is for the gospel to reach people as either an encouragement throughout the week. 01:28:17.199 --> 01:28:19.600 It's another avenue, it's an informative, right? 01:28:19.680 --> 01:28:20.960 Like we just want to reach people. 01:28:21.119 --> 01:28:23.840 And if you don't share and you don't do that, then we can't. 01:28:23.920 --> 01:28:24.880 Um take the time. 01:28:24.960 --> 01:28:33.279 If you haven't given a review or a comment, scroll to the bottom of Apple Podcasts, click the stars, um, read a comment real quick. 01:28:33.359 --> 01:28:34.960 Yeah, Spotify, it's in the middle of each one. 01:28:35.039 --> 01:28:38.159 I have people ask me all the time, how do I follow Apple Podcasts? 01:28:38.239 --> 01:28:39.439 There's three buttons at the top. 01:28:39.520 --> 01:28:41.840 You hit those three dots, has a plus button. 01:28:42.000 --> 01:28:43.520 Spotify is even easier. 01:28:43.680 --> 01:28:47.520 Um, by doing that, we get to reach more people, and that's all we want. 01:28:47.600 --> 01:28:52.000 Um, not to be famous, but uh put this out there and uh be impactful. 01:28:52.159 --> 01:28:53.520 But uh, we love y'all, we thank y'all. 01:28:53.600 --> 01:28:54.560 Hopefully, you don't get a lot of this. 01:28:54.720 --> 01:28:56.720 Richard's so much smarter than I am. 01:28:57.039 --> 01:29:01.680 Um I'm sure we all want to speak on y'all's behalf, but uh, we're glad we had him. 01:29:01.840 --> 01:29:04.000 So love y'all, and we'll see y'all later. 01:29:09.600 --> 01:29:12.800 Thank you for listening to this week's episode of Reverendly Ridiculous. 01:29:12.880 --> 01:29:16.880 Please leave us a like, comment, and review to tell us if you loved or hated this episode. 01:29:17.039 --> 01:29:19.680 See you next time on Reverendly Ridiculous.