התמלול המלא של When Trad is Trending with Pressgang Mutiny

you know, early in the pandemic when the postman from Scotland, Nathan Evans blew up on Tik Tok with his version of Wellerman, which James will tell you is not a shanty. We actually had a bit of a funny reaction to it because we sort of thought we released our previous album across the Western ocean in late 2019. And we thought this pandemic and people can't sing and record together. We might have the only shanty album that comes out for, you know, for two years so anyone who's interested in shanties is gonna come and find us and of course you know that's not at all how [00:06:00] it played out so you know we watched with a lot of a lot of interest it was very bizarre to sort of wake up and be forwarded articles from the Guardian and the New York Times talking all about how shanties are having this big moment. We even did try to get on Tik TOK for a hot minute. It was a lot of work and we're pretty useless at social media. So, that was pretty, pretty interesting to try out. But I think, you know, our reaction to it generally was. That we were thrilled that the music was getting some exposure. We were thrilled that people were able to find a way to sing together, even if it was different from how we sing together and how we came to it, you know, shanties really at their core are a technology to bring people from different backgrounds and different places in the world, maybe even speaking different languages together to, to kind of connect. And, you know, in, in the original case to, to work on something and get something done. But also to bond as a crew and then to sort of see that play out through modern technology was just really, really interesting. [00:07:00] And. In retrospect, not that surprising that that was one of the musical forms that blew up because they're easy. They are designed to sing along and to connect people. And that's exactly what happened. James: Well, yeah, I agree with Stephan's point there. Although as Stephan did mention, I will point out, it is not strictly speaking a sea shanty because it's, it's a, it's a verse on the chorus, so it's actually a, a ballad or a folk song. And I will say I do love folk music, my love of, of sea shanty comes outta my love of folk music. So it's interesting that in a way it could have been any folk song. It didn't need to be. A nautical themed folk song. But Stephan is right that there is something about shanties that part of the design and the application and the function was to get people to work together, to, you know, sing as they're working together. So, yeah, it's a bit ironic in a way but perhaps also the lyrics were pretty topical for COVID. It's sort of like that anticipation and that excitement for something to arrive. And things will be better when this, when [00:08:00] this thing arrives. So, yeah, it was definitely unexpected and, and interesting. And the format was pretty interesting too, where you could collaborate, it allowed you to collaborate and, and overdub parts where um, I don't think any other sort of app at the time was designed that way. Stefan: One of the things that it did spur for us, cause you asked, how did we react? There was a lot at the time, I think, of a sort of misunderstanding of, you know, what's a shanty, what's not, where does this music really come from there historically have been a lot of misperceptions about what shanties are and what the roots of them are, which is part of why we're doing that documentary film that you mentioned off the top to showcase that, you know, a lot of these roots are Afro Caribbean, African American, et cetera rather than sort of, you know, tied up in, in the British folk revival of the sixties. But. What we set out to do because we weren't able to sing together and do performances was we started our own podcast called The Shanty Show to talk to singers from around the world. And using very basic technology, we recorded it all on Zoom and then stitched it together after the fact, kind of managed to get some singing done with those folks. But it was all part of our journey [00:09:00] to really understand Where do these songs actually come from? What's the real kind of truth behind it? You know, yet I don't know that there really ever will be a definitive answer. But for us to understand and to showcase some of the people who've really dedicated a lot of time and energy and research to the topic and to bring that to the forefront was really important and we've used that as our jumping off point for what we bring into our performances now and certainly what James was referencing with regards to the new album and the use of the drum machine and production. It's all informed by. What was this music at its core and what were the other musical traditions that may have sort of been related to it or tied into it. So I think it had a pretty profound effect on, what we do. I don't, I don't think if you'd asked us in 2020, when things started going viral that we would have expected where it's taken us, but yeah, it certainly set us on an interesting trajectory. James: Yeah. And it was interesting too, that man, the whole world was on pause. So when we came up with the idea of the shanty show, we kind of wrote a wishlist of who we could possibly interview. And we wrote kind of all. All of our [00:10:00] heroes and some other people that sort of came to mind subsequently and, and to our great surprise, everybody said yes. Cause I guess people didn't have anything better to do than talk to a bunch of knuckleheads in Toronto, you know? So, it kind of worked out quite nicely and, you know, all things considered. Rosalyn: That's great. And we'll link to the Shanty Show in the notes. It's still available, right? Stefan: Oh yeah. Yeah. It's on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. Rosalyn: Perfect. We'll definitely link to that for folks who want to do a deep dive there. I was wondering if we can kind of explore what you were talking about when you

mentioned the kind of community music or the feeling of community you get when you sing. With other people you know, as we are entering into more and uncertain times do you see, collective singing and, and song traditions as, as again, being something that's essential to getting through the tough times. James: as I was mentioning folk music is something that has meant a lot to me since I was about, about 12 years old or so initially [00:11:00] through hearing the Chieftains and wanting to play Irish fiddle music and then getting into Cape Breton music and eventually playing many thousands of gigs and pubs and all that and getting into playing guitar and singing and so the song tradition was always very close to me as well. But I never really experienced that sort of communal singing in a way. And it's sort of, yeah, it was very interesting timing. shortly after I joined Lemon Bucket and then Press Gang Mutiny came out of that. One of the guys who was in both bands at the time, John David Williams, and I somehow found out about this thing called Another Bloody Folk Club. It used to be at the gin mill, I guess, on Bloor Street. And so we kind of stumbled in there, I guess it was December of 2013. And yeah, I was just absolutely blown away with what I walked into. Just a sort of community that was there to listen to music. That's how I met Stephan actually indirectly. That was Stephan's parents' social circle, I guess you could say. Stefan: Well, they run that club. Stefan: I think, you know, at the folk club at another bloody folk club sort of with the Morris dancers and more socially, you know, I, I was very lucky to grow up in [00:12:00] communities that just sang together and it's always struck me as a little bit of a tragedy that. Humans don't sing together anymore. Like, I think it's the saddest thing in the world when you encounter somebody who says, Oh, I can't, I'm not a good singer. I don't really sing. And, you know, I know there are certain people for whom that is absolutely true, but that's a very small percentage compared to, you know, it's just people aren't used to singing and they feel vulnerable and exposed when doing that, but there is a magic that happens when you get past that in a room full of people just singing together after a few beers at the top of their lungs that you just can't match. It just creates bonding and it does create trust and connection. And you know, you mentioned in your question about sort of uncertain times. And I think one of the things generally that we need to do is Look to the people around us and look local and find those points of connection. We run a monthly social sing. It's a shanty sing previously at the Saulter Street Brewery, but we're looking [00:13:00] for a new home because that place is closing down. And we get, you know, between 40 to 50 people every month who come just to sing shanties. And we project the lyrics up on a screen. And it's not just us singing. We get people to come and lead songs. And it's just been, I think, really, we were talking about this just the other day, incredibly gratifying. to have been a part of watching that build. We have people who are now writing songs and bringing it because you just sort of see what people get out of this shared experience of just simply singing together, which is, anyone can do it. There's no barrier, right? And I think that, again, that shanties have this magic in them because they're not complicated songs. They're easy to, you know, you can listen once or twice in the first couple of verses and you can probably figure it out nine times out of 10. So yeah, I, I think that there is, there's a real home for that in just helping people find a safe space and a sense of belonging. And we're pretty focused on making sure that, that exists wherever we [00:14:00] go. And at all of our shows. James: Yeah. And it's really encouraging to see there's a great group out of Ottawa right now as well. Bightown Sea Shanty Collective. And they do a really great thing at what's the name of the place now? Stefan: Beyond the Pale Brewery. James: yeah, they packed the place. We got to go up there a few months ago when Tom Lewis was in town. we did sort of a triple bill up in Ottawa and it was, amazing to see everyone singing so energetically. So it's nice. Yeah, it's encouraging to see that. Rosalyn: And, you know, especially going in, who's at uncertain times, but when the, economy is bad, singing is free, James: That's right. Stefan: There you go. Rosalyn: you mentioned the Ottawa thing, I was wondering, are you starting to see more of these groups crop up around Canada? Stefan: Yeah, I think that the Bightown guys are a really good example James can probably reference a couple of the groups that we're connected to out east there's actually another group here in Toronto called the Wailing Guild that started out of an irregular shanty sing that happens out on the Danforth that is, that's a party it's a really good time, James: So when we got started, I was sort of looking around to try and see who else sing shanties in Canada. And really, as far as I could tell, [00:15:00] there was only really the armist shanty men in, in Yarmouth, Nova Scotia, or A great bunch of guys and before the mast in Saint John New Brunswick Who are also a great great crew as well And they're a bit they're a bit older than us So is you know, I feel that when we met them, I guess around 2014 or so they were really thrilled to see A bunch of younger guys sort of kick into it and getting into that kind of music. So maybe we're not seeing it as much as we might like but it is nice to see a few different groups popping up. James: I don't know who wrote this. It was a ridiculous description But at one point someone had written we are Canada's youngest shantyman, which we are not anymore but yeah, they got the dreadknots as well who were kind of based out of New York, I guess, but we have some ties to BC.

They do some cool stuff too. They kind of mix it with guess I'm mainly like a punk rock band, polka, yeah. with a polka aspect and a sea shanty facet as well. So, yeah, it's kind of cool to see it. And at the same time you know, going back to what you're asking about the Wellerman, I think it was really cool to see just people. James: more aware of [00:16:00] shanties or nautical ballads. And if there's more enthusiasm and more awareness of that and more groups for me, that's, fantastic in my books Rosalyn: Do you think that because it, it really blew up on, TOK do you see a bit of diversification in who is interested in sea shanties? James: a little bit, but maybe not, quite as much as one might. It's a funny or shanty thing at Salter Street. I feel that often we sort of, surprise a bunch of people who are minding their own business, just going and going for a drink with some friends on a Sunday afternoon. So, that's nice to see, and it's nice to see some of them come back. yeah, in terms of a wider audience, I don't know, Stephen, do you have any thoughts about that? Stefan: Yeah, I mean, I would agree with you that you know, I don't think we've seen anything overly material in our audience or different from what you would see with other folk music audiences. But I can imagine you know, on social media, there might be a lot more diversity engaging with it, but it does tie to one of the things that I think is important to us is, you know, that there's sort of this, Stereotype in a way of the shanty singers being, [00:17:00] overweight beardy guys raising pints and singing in pubs and you know to a certain degree we fit that description So I'm not I'm not casting aspersions But that's not really where this music came from and what the roots of it are as far as we can tell it had multiple different influences and there's I think a little bit of an untold story here about some of The black origins of the music, the Afro Caribbean and African American in particular. So I think, you know, the more that we can help to shine a light on some of that, I think it can create ways for other people to maybe access and find and relate to, to the music. And that's pretty important for us to do as well. Rosalyn: We've brought up the term shanty men a bunch of times. Are there any? Gender diverse shanty groups. Do women sing shanties? There's no right or wrong answer to that, but you know, is that open women to sing them as well, or gender diverse folks? Stefan: Absolutely. One of the guests on the show is a singer named Heather Wood, who some of the listeners may know from the Seminole Harmony Group, the Young Tradition out of the UK. And she was one of the first female singers of shanties. There was [00:18:00] this, even as late as sort of the early 80s and maybe even beyond. This sort of unspoken thing that women could join in on the choruses, but they were not allowed to lead a song, which, to us, just seems absolutely insane today. But Heather and then a group of singers out of New York called the Johnson Girls really became the kind of leading lights of Well, screw that. We're just going to sing these songs and got to look up the Johnson Girls albums. I mean, the way that they sing these songs is just so much raw power and energy. it's awesome. We had them on the show as well. I've known them for, for years. We had the pleasure of performing with them down at the Mystic Seaport Museum at a big event that they used to have, therefore Sea Music. So yeah, I don't think that that is remotely considered a barrier anymore. And we're all better off for it. Cause there's been some incredible music produced by all female groups. James: Yeah. And the Johnson girls, I think they referenced the Liverpool, Judy's and the Norfolk rods as well. I think there's another group they mentioned and yeah, we didn't interview them on the shanty show. And I think it was yeah, one [00:19:00] of them mentioned Helen Crichton, the great Canadian ethnomusicologist who had collected one of the shanties. I think it was brandy. And it was from a bunch of women loading and unloading cargo. I forget where specifically. But yeah, so even just the notion that these songs you know, a lot of them came from all male environments, but not exclusively. So, as Stephen's saying, there are a lot of sort of, different aspects to these stories that have not been explored. And I think, speaking with folk music, that that can be the case where people who are maybe socially or economically disadvantaged doing things for their own entertainment. And it doesn't tend to be thought of as important by academics until the tradition is beginning to disappear. And that's when the documentation comes in. So there's a, a lot of it goes kind of, undocumented and kind of, disappears into thin air at times, unfortunately. Rosalyn: What do you think about the notion of group singing or shanty singing as I'm not going to say a replacement for, but as a kind of form of, of therapy, like, or, [00:20:00] soothing, is that something that you guys have, have thought of in terms of, you know, your, your community and the role that it plays in, community. James: Yeah. So, when I began exploring the Shanties, I thought of it in a few different terms. I thought of it as where does this music come from historically? and following that, where does this music come from sort of geographically and culturally? And I think the last one which really struck me is where does this music come from emotionally? And, you know, a lot of these songs, they'll be references to being away from, from loved ones or the danger that you're about to face as you're around in Cape Corn. And there's, to me, especially in the songs, which are kind of less in a steady meter. They're a bit, they tend to be a bit slower and some of them have a really strong emotional quality. And when I'm singing some of those songs it does feel kind of therapeutic. it's hard to put into

words, you can start to kind of imagine that sentiment And how these people might've been feeling while they're singing it. So I've, I've certainly felt that at times. Stefan: Build on it with, yeah, with the personal angle of it, which [00:21:00] is, you know, oftentimes the, I'll give the example of our monthly sing, you know, wake up. And I'm just like, I do not feel like going, but you force yourself to go and it turns your day around. And there's just something about singing together when I'm on the stage with these guys even in or if the crowd is going and it just. It has a way of kind of settling you down, making you very present. You're not ruminating on anything else that's going on. You're connected. You've got a sense of belonging. You've got a sense of kind of shared purpose. Might not be, it might be too bold a word, but something that we're just collaborating on and doing together. And I think, you know, all of those things. You're out of the house, you're being social, and you're connecting and finding a sense of belonging. It has to be a boost to people's mental health. you Rosalyn: So then we've talked about the rolling wave of popularity that is traditional for, I'm going to back up and just say the kind of traditional music in general can have in our popular culture. And, and, you know, certainly there was like the Irish wave in the [00:22:00] nineties. And then we had our, Oh brother, we're out now. Now everybody has a banjo, time. as. people working in the music industry, how much does that affect you in terms of like your, your careers? And like, do you feel those surges and try to capitalize on them? Do you kind of try to remain steady throughout? James: Good question. I guess I would start out by saying that I feel that I've, I've really gone out of my way to devote myself to unpopular and obscure styles of music, generally speaking. That said I, I did. When I got into the fiddle music was totally that, that time period that you're talking about with you know, the chieftains, I remember the long black veil that recorded with, you know, everyone from sting to Mick Jagger and Tom Jones and all kinds of people. And that came out right around when Riverdance came out and that came out right around when Ashley MacIsaac's I, how are you today album was, was becoming a number one hit in in Canada. And then shortly after, I guess as a fiddle player I found myself playing bluegrass, which was more popular. So. I guess I was affected by both of those, sort of trends as [00:23:00] well. I don't know that I've ever kind of gone out of my way to be affiliated with those things, but I think as a folk musician, certain things do become sort of more popular at times, which I think is kind of good for everyone in the folk scene. Stefan: James is a massive Rick Rubin proponent the producer Rick Rubin and, you know, basically his whole thing is you create to just put it out there and you're not sort of, you know, reacting to what

the world is is expecting from you. And I think that's the approach that we've taken. It's why we're taking such a big pivot now away from, you know, our first two albums were very traditional, very acapella and, I'm just like, there's something cooler, more interesting and, you know, that we want to explore and it may alienate a bunch of our current audience. They may love it. It may attract a whole bunch of new people, but we've just got to make this and push it out into the world. And I think that that outlook gives us the ability to sort of, you know, weather some of the peaks, valleys, you know, all of that said, if there is a wave that we can kind of catch and surf for a bit, why not? But we're going to do it in a way that [00:24:00] feels right to us. I mean, it would have been very easy, I think, for us to have stayed on the TikTok thing and we'd probably be a lot more popular than we are now, but it just, it didn't feel right. It didn't feel authentic, sort of who we are and what we want to do. So, yeah, I don't want to build on what James was saying to just sort of say, You know, we're just doing our own thing. James: Yeah. And I've, I've often thought too with any tradition, any, any style of music. when someone's starting out with it, you really try to emulate as well as you can because you're, I often think of it kind of like a language and you're, you're learning, not just the words individually, but you're learning how to sort of string them together and create sentences. And then you're, you're understanding the nuances of, those phrases and you're understanding the different ways to articulate those phrases. And I think there comes a time where. Once you feel you've mastered a tradition to a degree, then it's important start to sort of have your own voice that style and to add something to it, to sort of give something back to it. So, in a way, I think, yeah, we were very puritanical for the first 10 years or so and really trying to do shanties away. The way that they would have been done as best as we could [00:25:00] tell. And I would definitely roll my eyes a number of times when we'd get requests for various privateers at the end of a gig and that kind of thing. Cause it's not technically a shanty and blah, blah, blah. But yeah, I think at this point we've got that reputation of being a credible shanty group that's been around for a while now and yeah we're having a bit of fun kind of pushing those boundaries a bit now and making different connections and yeah just having fun with the different styles of music that we enjoy as well. Rosalyn: Yeah, I think that's a really interesting conversation that we could get into just about like tradition bearers and tradition keepers. And kind of, as you mentioned, like at first it can be really constricting until you decide that it's not, you know, it's a at the end of the day, I think, you know, is As someone who also, personally loves, trad music and loves performing or just

playing trad music. did a similar kind of 180 of, embracing the, things that it can become in hopes that then, you know, it draws people into the tradition. Ha! James: It's a fine line because I think if a practitioner of a tradition hasn't quite figured it out and then they're [00:26:00] creating something Then, you know, it could be argued, is this really authentic to the tradition or does it not quite resonate properly? And I think, you know, come to think you almost need the two different camps. You need the people who want to preserve it the way it was the, you know, the historians of the music. I think that's wonderful. I think it's really cool to take a deep dive with someone that can tell you exactly how this, this person played. That's cool. There's a place for that. And I think that also you look at. Something like bluegrass music and bluegrass is not really a traditional music. That was Bill Monroe taking aspects. He liked old time music and taking the form of jazz and the concept of improvising and putting different instruments together. And then that became something that was rooted in tradition that became wildly popular. And now people play it the way Bill played, or they'll deviate from that. So I think, yeah, it's kind of interesting. If nothing gets pushed forward, You know if the bazooki or the acoustic guitar never got brought into Irish music It would still be cool, but it would be lacking something that has become part of the tradition now. Stefan: One of the things that always gives us a bit of a chuckle, I think, is that a lot of the [00:27:00] times people who are sort of hardliners on what is traditional and what is not are often wrong. I had a really nice moment the other day. My dad, who runs the folk club, tends to veer on the side of Traditional, right? And if it's not traditional, I'm not interested. I think we're opening his eyes a little bit, but he sings a version of a song and we recorded a version on our album and for ours, we went back to the Library of Congress and an Alan Lomax recording and the original recording of this song from 1935.vAnd we based our version off, off of that. And I got to tell my dad that for years, he's been singing the Harry Belafonte version. Rosalyn: yeah, so it's a really interesting mix between, like, responsibility and creativity. Do you find that? James: Yeah, for sure. But I mean, I think, you know, at its core, all those great folk songs that we like with someone making something up. So, people, maybe myself included, maybe we lose track of that sometimes out of our love for that music that's been handed down to us. But that's a fine line. And yeah, I think it needs, it always needs something to, [00:28:00] to keep it kind of relevant, to keep it, you know, interesting to people that are hearing it for the first time. So, I think that's that's fun about Shanty is as an art form is they do, Have a little bit of a template, as James mentioned, that classic call and response, but these were songs that would have been sung on a ship and you never knew how long the job was going to be. And so the shanty person who's leading the song, the shanty man, typically would have to improvise. And so they would be singing about what's going on on shore, talking about the owner, making fun of each other, making fun of the captain, et cetera. So these are like defining characteristics of what a shanty is, but within that template, there's a ton of room. To experiment and play around. And so, you know, back to James's point about, and your point, right? You've got to hold the tradition, but really get clear on what you believe is core to that tradition and then create within that framework. And I think that's the balance that we're, we're always trying to strike. Rosalyn: And I'm wondering if you can. I know we've, we've dropped a couple hints about some of this stuff, but let me Let me know, and our listeners know about [00:29:00] the projects that you guys have coming up. Tell us about Departure. James: Sure. So I guess we decided we should go into the studio and record some material. And we were throwing around a few different ideas. I think we're good at beginning things and then not totally materializing for a little while. So, some of the songs we had, which we still haven't gotten around to our songs we did on the shanty show. So we did all these interviews and we got all our guests to lead a song or two. And then I think Stefan was saying earlier, we'd kind of mute our zoom calls, record on separate devices. People would email me those tracks and I kind of put them together. So we've got a really cool half album. That has not progressed at all with loads of those songs. So that was one concept for the album. Another concept was sort of just the shanties we like singing nowadays. Another concept was shanty remixes for lack of a better term that I've been doing with my drum machine for the last 10 years, just kind of for fun. And we had different ideas about how to go about these different projects. And at one point we kind of thought, well, why don't we just. Do sort of a mishmash and [00:30:00] show people what we're up to nowadays. So we went into the studio with that in mind and as it turns out, we decided to kind of go down the route of the stuff with the, with the production and the samples and Which means we have even more material that will not make it for this album, but we have a sort of in the can right now. So, I think currently we're sitting at about 22 tracks for departure and it spans a pretty wide range. We do have one entirely acapella song. We've got one song that features concertina and fiddle. Everything else is kind of a mishmash to be honest. There's again, a lot of sampled material from old, field recordings or old folk recordings mixed in with different elements. There's some electric guitar on the album played by some by myself, some by Carl Harvey, who's an incredible guitar player who played with the. Legendary Toots and the Maytals. We've got Son Ray Granin son of Winston Granin, who's himself a great reggae singer and drummer. We've got Terry Wilkins on electric bass, James McElhinney on upright bass. Stefan: You've got, the brass section from Lemon Bucket [00:31:00] or at least a part James: Yeah. Some, some Nate Delvanderberg on trombone and Max Forster on trumpet. Stefan: We have the great shanty singer and songwriter, Tom Lewis as a guest lead vocals. James: Yeah, we got some piano in there. We got all kinds of elements. They're just a bit of a mishmash. Rosalyn: A bit of a departure, if you will. Stefan: There you go. Rosalyn: Oh, that's really exciting. And we'll definitely look out for that. How can folks connect with you online? Stefan: Yeah. Our website is Pressgangmutiny.com. We're at Pressgang Mutiny on, on most social media. Because of the bizarreness of YouTube, we have two YouTube channels, one which has our music, one which has videos of performances and episodes of The Shanty Show. You should subscribe to both. Rosalyn: Absolutely. And we'll link to that in our show notes. James and Stefan, thank you so much for being with us and chatting with us today, and I hope to see, and, maybe sing a song with you sometime in the future.