התמלול המלא של What Does It Take to Prepare Students for What’s Next? with Dr. Katie Graham

than any one programmer experience, right? 00:05:07.279 --> 00:05:13.519 It's career awareness, it's exploration, it's certainly those CTE courses we, you know, invest heavily in. 00:05:13.600 --> 00:05:23.680 It's work-based learning, it's employer engagement, um, and it's opportunities for students to deepen their learning through those authentic problems in real-world context, right? 00:05:23.759 --> 00:05:24.879 That we were just talking about. 00:05:25.279 --> 00:05:29.120 Um, you know, at its best, it brings together all of that rigorous content. 00:05:29.199 --> 00:05:32.639 We talk a lot about those, you know, integrating those academic concepts. 00:05:32.720 --> 00:05:35.360 I think CTE is academics, but we can get to that later. 00:05:35.600 --> 00:05:37.519 All of that relevance and applications. 00:05:37.680 --> 00:05:44.000 It's not only helping students understand, you know, what they're learning, but why it matters and how they can use it. 00:05:44.160 --> 00:05:50.319 Um, exploring widely, exploring deeply, uh, and helping them make informed decisions um as they move through school. 00:05:50.639 --> 00:05:52.240 100% agree with you, Katie. 00:05:52.399 --> 00:05:55.279 I I had a great professor when I was in school, Dr. 00:05:55.360 --> 00:06:00.480 Joseph Murphy, uh, and he told me, he said, you know, sometimes we mistake. 00:06:00.639 --> 00:06:03.920 We think our goal is to get a kid to graduate high school. 00:06:04.399 --> 00:06:06.560 And he he called it one door. 00:06:06.959 --> 00:06:10.240 They exit, we did our job, they graduated high school. 00:06:10.480 --> 00:06:14.959 But I remember him really pressing down and he said, But what are they prepared for? 00:06:15.360 --> 00:06:18.000 Because they're not really prepared to go to college. 00:06:18.079 --> 00:06:20.240 The the data on that isn't that good. 00:06:20.399 --> 00:06:22.480 They're not prepared for the workforce. 00:06:22.800 --> 00:06:26.319 And he used to call it 70 doors of experience. 00:06:26.560 --> 00:06:28.079 They're in your environment. 00:06:28.240 --> 00:06:29.839 How do we create these experiences? 00:06:30.000 --> 00:06:46.560 I look at career inventory assessments, and we use them, and we're a big fan of those tools, but I also worry it's like it's not about getting a kid, a student to pick a career, it's about having an experience, see if that experience resonates with you. 00:06:46.800 --> 00:06:53.040 I've literally been in a school and they stop students from changing their pathway based upon a career inventory. 00:06:53.360 --> 00:06:55.680 And I was like, no, no, no, no, that's not the point. 00:06:55.839 --> 00:06:58.879 The goal is there's an experience you're gonna have. 00:06:59.120 --> 00:07:03.839 You get to decide now is that experience resonating with me? 00:07:04.240 --> 00:07:06.800 Does it move me to do something? 00:07:07.120 --> 00:07:09.199 You never know what's gonna click for a student. 00:07:09.360 --> 00:07:16.319 I always say, and I love that image of when a student's in school, can we create 70 doors, not one? 00:07:16.720 --> 00:07:19.199 And they're going in and out of these doors all the time. 00:07:19.439 --> 00:07:21.040 What has that experience taught me? 00:07:21.199 --> 00:07:22.639 Do I learn something new? 00:07:22.879 --> 00:07:29.120 And there's a lot of data, especially for low social economic kids, they don't have enough exposure. 00:07:29.360 --> 00:07:35.279 And it's naive to think they can choose a job when they've never been exposed to it, right? 00:07:36.480 --> 00:07:47.920 From your statewide perspective, what is Nebraska particularly doing well in connecting education, workforce, and some of these pieces together on that? 00:07:48.399 --> 00:07:56.079 Yeah, you hit on so many great points, and we are very geographically diverse in a number of other areas as well. 00:07:56.319 --> 00:08:10.319 I think Nebraska has increasingly treated this career connected learning and other um other areas as a system issue rather than a collection of individual programs. 00:08:10.800 --> 00:08:13.439 We have strong CTE programs. 00:08:13.759 --> 00:08:20.319 If you look at the data, we have some of the highest numbers in terms of CTE participation and concentration numbers. 00:08:20.480 --> 00:08:32.159 We have extensive employer engagement, we have very strong career and technical student organizations, we have growing work-based learning participation, strong dual credit. 00:08:32.399 --> 00:08:36.559 We are really hitting the ground running, growing our apprenticeship opportunities. 00:08:36.720 --> 00:08:43.840 We're very intentional about, you mentioned using labor market information to drive our program offerings and industry input. 00:08:44.080 --> 00:08:55.679 Currently, as we're modernizing our programs of study and revising our CTE standards, really driving home, you know, co-developing those programs with business and post-secondary solidly at the table. 00:08:55.840 --> 00:09:04.399 I think one of our strengths is that Nebraska is small enough to build strong relationships across education, workforce, and business and industry. 00:09:04.559 --> 00:09:08.480 We had a side conversation before this uh podcast started about relationships. 00:09:08.879 --> 00:09:16.639 Um, but we're also large and diverse enough that we know we have to build systems that work in very different communities. 00:09:16.960 --> 00:09:33.919 Yesterday I was at our governor's economic development summit and there were breakout sessions, and I was sitting next to our commissioner of labor and on one side, and on the other side of me, I was sitting next to our executive director for the coordinating commission for post-secondary education. 00:09:34.159 --> 00:09:38.240 And next to him was our executive director for our community college association. 00:09:38.480 --> 00:09:46.240 In front of me were two business partners for one of our aerospace engineers and Kawasaki

and the Nebraska Hospital Association. 00:09:46.399 --> 00:09:52.080 And we just like all moved together from session to session, joking, you know, oh, we're all just going from the same session. 00:09:52.240 --> 00:10:00.639 And we joked because we constantly are with each other across events regularly, because we work together constantly. 00:10:00.799 --> 00:10:06.399 So we're small enough that we understand how important relationships are as we build out systems. 00:10:06.639 --> 00:10:23.840 But we know as we work together in those systems, we have to remain flexible enough to meet the needs of our local communities to make those systems work and are responsive enough that local communities can implement the systems we build at the state level, but because communities have different needs. 00:10:24.080 --> 00:10:32.639 So I think that's one thing that's really special about Nebraska is we're very big as a state land-wise, but we have just over two million people. 00:10:32.879 --> 00:10:39.279 So population-wise, we're relatively small, but we have a very small unemployment number, right? 00:10:39.440 --> 00:10:42.960 So from a workforce side, we need as many people as we can get, right? 00:10:43.120 --> 00:10:49.039 Because we still have workforce shortages in critical industry areas like healthcare and education. 00:10:49.200 --> 00:10:56.159 Um, so we still have critical areas that many other states also have, but we have to find different ways to approach those. 00:10:56.240 --> 00:11:01.279 And so we do that through partnerships and systems, and we remain responsive to meet those needs. 00:11:01.600 --> 00:11:15.919 I've seen this survey data at lots of different places to where businesses say they're 74% of businesses nationwide say they don't like what they get from education. 00:11:16.320 --> 00:11:16.559 Right. 00:11:16.720 --> 00:11:21.039 And I've seen that as high as 80, 85 in some states. 00:11:21.279 --> 00:11:24.799 I think there's been a reluctance from education to reach out to business. 00:11:24.879 --> 00:11:27.759 And I think likewise, businesses they run a business. 00:11:28.000 --> 00:11:30.320 So it's got to be relevant to the business and industry. 00:11:30.480 --> 00:11:34.720 But I think we as education leaders, I think the the timing is now. 00:11:34.799 --> 00:11:36.399 How do we close that gap with business? 00:11:36.480 --> 00:11:40.879 And I think they're ready to have the conversation, and I think they're very sincere. 00:11:41.120 --> 00:11:46.559 And uh I encourage educators when I meet with them across the country and say you should reach out to your B and I. 00:11:46.799 --> 00:11:51.600 Uh, they're ready to have the conversation when they think you're serious. 00:11:51.759 --> 00:11:57.519 We had a cycle for a long time, I think, in public education to where business complained and we locked the door. 00:11:58.399 --> 00:12:02.960 And I think you got to open the door and say, hey, come in, here's what we're

gonna give you. 00:12:03.039 --> 00:12:04.240 Is this relevant to you? 00:12:04.399 --> 00:12:15.759 And have that meaningful conversation because uh I think they can help schools a lot, both with funding, opportunities, apprenticeship, work-based learning, all of that starts to trickle down. 00:12:16.080 --> 00:12:17.919 I saw a study, and this just came out. 00:12:18.000 --> 00:12:19.759 This was uh a recent Rand report. 00:12:19.840 --> 00:12:20.639 I love Rand. 00:12:20.960 --> 00:12:27.279 I think they do some great research across the country, and they published something on career connected learning on August the 31st. 00:12:27.600 --> 00:12:35.279 Rand found a significant gap between career connected learning experiences students plan to pursue and what they actually complete. 00:12:35.440 --> 00:12:46.639 And so what Rand was basically saying, hey, students are raising their hand, but they don't complete what prevents the schools from turning student interest into meaningful experiences from your perspective. 00:12:47.039 --> 00:12:49.279 This was such an interesting report. 00:12:49.360 --> 00:12:58.960 Uh, and I hope the listeners do take a look at it uh because I think this probably, well, as they share it, happens more than we probably um maybe realize. 00:12:59.200 --> 00:13:02.879 It's clearly not a lack of student interest. 00:13:03.039 --> 00:13:15.600 I think it's very, I want to say obviously, but from a school perspective, I think many would be able to clearly point to it's a lack of capacity and probably a lack of access, as you mentioned earlier. 00:13:15.840 --> 00:13:26.320 Um, I think schools are often dealing with transportation issues, scheduling, staffing, employer availability. 00:13:26.559 --> 00:13:31.759 We often get a lot of questions about liability and insurance questions. 00:13:32.159 --> 00:13:40.480 Um, I know in Nebraska and many of my partner rural states, it's often a geography, uh rural geography issue. 00:13:40.799 --> 00:13:48.159 And sometimes it's simply just the enormous coordination required to create quality experiences. 00:13:48.480 --> 00:13:57.840 Sometimes with all best efforts, I think we build systems around opportunities than around students. 00:13:58.320 --> 00:14:04.879 We have internships available, but it doesn't always mean that students can access them. 00:14:05.039 --> 00:14:07.840 And the Rand report, I think, does a really great job explaining this. 00:14:07.919 --> 00:14:19.039 You know, there's a gap between aspiration and participation, and it's important because it tells us we can't ever success simply by asking whether opportunities exist. 00:14:19.519 --> 00:14:24.000 You know, we have to ask who's actually accessing and completing them. 00:14:24.240 --> 00:14:28.879 Um, so that that Rand report was really eye-opening, and I've shared it with my team. 00:14:29.360 --> 00:14:37.679 Yeah, one of the phrases I use sometimes, awareness precedes your ability to be exposed. 00:14:37.759 --> 00:14:41.519 I I gotta have awareness before I can aspire to do something. 00:14:42.000 --> 00:14:46.960 Um sometimes I think there's a lack of stickiness, and that's I mean I'm using a late term here. 00:14:47.120 --> 00:14:49.600 It's not about bringing a speaker in for one day. 00:14:49.679 --> 00:14:55.840 It's like, how do I create stickiness to that event that says we're gonna do this all the time? 00:14:56.000 --> 00:15:03.039 I think the the failure of career exploration in the past, in my perspective, has been we treat it as an event. 00:15:03.200 --> 00:15:05.200 We're gonna do something once. 00:15:05.440 --> 00:15:05.919 Right. 00:15:06.240 --> 00:15:12.879 We're going to log on to our career exploration system, and you're gonna have to fill out a report because that's what the state says we have to do. 00:15:13.039 --> 00:15:17.200 I know multiple states that have a required report that has to be done. 00:15:17.279 --> 00:15:25.600 And I've talked to students and they're like, yeah, I do it once a week in February because that's when the state requires it to be done. 00:15:25.759 --> 00:15:29.679 My favorite research report was done by the National Dropout Prevention. 00:15:29.759 --> 00:15:35.200 And John Hopkins has modeled this as well that students know when it's authentic. 00:15:35.360 --> 00:15:39.200 Students can perceive non-authentic and they don't take it serious. 00:15:39.360 --> 00:15:51.120 And I think when you can get into a real career conversation with kids, service projects always work for the same reason because they are real, they're not fake, they see the outcome. 00:15:51.360 --> 00:15:54.559 I'm a big believer in career exploration, it should be done all the time. 00:15:54.720 --> 00:16:02.799 Somewhere along the way on the journey of public education, we separated academics and careers, and we hope they meet. 00:16:03.200 --> 00:16:07.919 And I believe for a long time the idea was they were going to meet in college. 00:16:08.480 --> 00:16:09.519 Too late. 00:16:09.840 --> 00:16:10.799 Too late. 00:16:12.159 --> 00:16:16.799 And there is a big movement to pull that all the way down to middle school, if not lower. 00:16:16.879 --> 00:16:25.360 I've seen movements to where it's like, how do we get, and it's not to have a middle school student pick a career, it's how do we create that exposure in middle school? 00:16:25.600 --> 00:16:31.600 Yeah, and build the confidence to know the tools and where to find that information and how it all connects. 00:16:31.679 --> 00:16:31.840 Absolutely. 00:16:32.080 --> 00:16:37.519 I hear the term career ready, and if I could redefine it, I would say, how do we help students become career-wise? 00:16:37.759 --> 00:16:39.440 Yeah, I like that. 00:16:39.679 --> 00:16:42.960 And marry that with career engagement. 00:16:43.759 --> 00:16:47.039 Because I have to teach you to understand what you're looking at. 00:16:47.200 --> 00:16:50.639 It's not enough just to say,

hey, what's labor market data telling me? 00:16:50.720 --> 00:16:53.840 It's like, hey, where are these jobs going to be? 00:16:53.919 --> 00:16:55.919 And what's the data on that? 00:16:56.080 --> 00:17:03.840 I have a personal story to where I have a son that is doing airframe mechanics, and uh it's a 15-month certification program. 00:17:03.919 --> 00:17:11.279 I have two other kids that went to college, but the one that's doing airframe mechanics, which is a 15-month certification program, he has multiple jobs. 00:17:11.440 --> 00:17:12.720 He's not done yet. 00:17:13.039 --> 00:17:14.400 Over 100K. 00:17:14.720 --> 00:17:15.359 Wow. 00:17:15.599 --> 00:17:19.039 That's multiple job offers, and he's not even done. 00:17:19.599 --> 00:17:23.279 And I'm going, how do you get a student to understand that? 00:17:23.440 --> 00:17:25.119 And let them choose. 00:17:25.279 --> 00:17:29.279 Like, hey, if you want to go to college, great, here's what that path looks like. 00:17:29.519 --> 00:17:33.440 But if this works for you over here, that's great, right? 00:17:33.680 --> 00:17:34.880 Which is my next question. 00:17:35.039 --> 00:17:44.559 One finding from the Rant report uh suggests that students who do not plan to pursue four-year degrees often feel less supported by their schools. 00:17:44.880 --> 00:17:51.519 How do we support states and school systems to provide greater visibility and value into the full range? 00:17:52.880 --> 00:17:58.720 Yeah, I think we have to be really careful about the language and signals adults send students. 00:17:58.799 --> 00:18:01.519 Uh, this is probably a tale as old as time. 00:18:01.839 --> 00:18:06.240 Um a four-year degree is an excellent pathway for many students. 00:18:06.480 --> 00:18:11.680 It's just not the only pathway to meaningful work, just as you were describing the pathway your son is on. 00:18:11.839 --> 00:18:21.519 It's often hard in high school when most of the people in front of our learners had to have a four-year degree to be a teacher, and that's all they know. 00:18:21.680 --> 00:18:27.440 And I I get on a tangent sometimes when that's the only thing they're exposed to. 00:18:27.599 --> 00:18:29.200 It just creates some conflict sometimes. 00:18:29.359 --> 00:18:31.519 We know it's not the only pathway to meaningful work. 00:18:31.599 --> 00:18:35.759 You know, continued learning or economic opportunity can be found in a lot of different ways. 00:18:36.079 --> 00:18:50.799 And the research shows, you know, students should see community college, apprenticeships, industry credentials, military service, um, employment and four-year education presented as different pathways, not a hierarchy of pathways. 00:18:51.200 --> 00:18:54.960 We talk a lot about protecting the and in college and career. 00:18:55.119 --> 00:18:57.359 Like there's just so many pathways. 00:18:57.440 --> 00:19:03.680 Um, and we just really haven't figured out a way to present this to youth that isn't a hierarchy. 00:19:03.920 --> 00:19:16.799 And I think it's our responsibility to give students good information about cost, about time, about credentials, about earnings and about advancement opportunities, and about further education so they can make informed choices. 00:19:16.880 --> 00:19:18.559 Um, I think that's what I was sharing before. 00:19:18.640 --> 00:19:23.200 It's it's not about having students pick a career while they're in high school. 00:19:23.440 --> 00:19:33.519 It's about giving them all of this information so they can make informed choices, whatever those choices may be, and not presenting them as a better or best choice. 00:19:33.759 --> 00:19:34.640 It's their choice. 00:19:34.720 --> 00:19:39.039 And how we do that without bias, I think we haven't quite figured out yet. 00:19:39.200 --> 00:19:47.680 And and helping truthfully parents be a part of that conversation because we know what we were taught and what we were told. 00:19:48.400 --> 00:19:49.839 And everybody go to college. 00:19:50.240 --> 00:19:52.160 Yeah, and they're getting it from a lot of different ways. 00:19:52.240 --> 00:19:55.039 And I think there's education that has to happen at home. 00:19:55.200 --> 00:20:09.920 Uh, because again, if if the parents also have these long-held beliefs that a four-year degree is the only path to economic independence um or financial stability, you know, the that's only gonna persist, right? 00:20:10.000 --> 00:20:13.359 Um, we know the data show us that's not the only way. 00:20:13.680 --> 00:20:23.119 And our our workforce is changing so rapidly with ways, as you just mentioned, uh, to great, great opportunities. 00:20:23.359 --> 00:20:27.519 Um I think there's we're we've got to figure this out. 00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:29.599 100% echo what you say. 00:20:29.680 --> 00:20:31.759 I mean, for a long time, it was college for all. 00:20:32.000 --> 00:20:34.079 Well, that was the motto for 20 years. 00:20:34.240 --> 00:20:38.640 And by the way, I always say there's times where that worked. 00:20:38.799 --> 00:20:40.319 It did work for a while. 00:20:40.400 --> 00:20:43.519 It was the right message, and I think we're at a different point. 00:20:43.680 --> 00:20:47.119 I mean, I've seen colleges now move into three-year degrees. 00:20:47.519 --> 00:20:48.400 I yes. 00:20:48.799 --> 00:20:53.119 We've not got a two-year degree in the University of Tennessee. 00:20:53.279 --> 00:20:56.640 Uh, it came out with their three-year degree, and everybody has a ton of questions. 00:20:56.799 --> 00:20:58.480 It's like, well, what is a three-year degree? 00:20:58.559 --> 00:20:58.720 Right. 00:20:58.960 --> 00:21:02.480 So I think we're in the middle of a pretty big shift, right? 00:21:02.559 --> 00:21:05.920 And for good reason, I I agree with you. 00:21:06.079 --> 00:21:11.359 I mean, uh, find a student that has passion and uh unlock that. 00:21:11.519 --> 00:21:13.359 I've seen so many stories. 00:21:13.920 --> 00:21:21.119 Um, my son, who's doing

the airframe mechanics, he has a side project that he developed. 00:21:21.200 --> 00:21:27.200 And again, this falls into entrepreneurship to where he washes airplanes. 00:21:27.920 --> 00:21:38.880 So remember, he's learning how to be a mechanic, but now he's washing airplanes, and I mean, there's some months he's making$5,000 a month washing an airplane. 00:21:39.039 --> 00:21:46.400 But get a kid in that world, and the possibilities start to open up all kinds of different directions, right? 00:21:46.559 --> 00:21:53.200 Uh, it's like I can be a mechanic, I can be a pilot, I can also be somebody that can service and clean the airplane. 00:21:53.839 --> 00:21:58.319 There's a great story that I saw in a school to where it was an EMT program. 00:21:58.799 --> 00:21:59.839 And you think of an EMT. 00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:06.799 EMT, but they have data that like an overwhelming percentage of their students went on to be doctors. 00:22:07.119 --> 00:22:08.000 That's a good point, too. 00:22:08.319 --> 00:22:18.400 I don't want anyone to assume, like, we know, again, with the data, with every additional credential, stackable, like the earnings go with that, right? 00:22:18.559 --> 00:22:24.640 So it's not to say we know we need post-secondary education, right? 00:22:24.799 --> 00:22:33.279 And with every additional credential, post-secondary degree, what have you, the earnings follow, but there's multiple paths to get there. 00:22:33.440 --> 00:22:35.920 So it doesn't have to be high school four-year. 00:22:36.000 --> 00:22:39.119 Like there's just so many other ways to fall along that line. 00:22:39.279 --> 00:22:41.039 So yeah, I'm with you 100%. 00:22:41.440 --> 00:22:47.200 I mean, they could be happy being in airframe mechanics, or they could want to start their own business and do something else with it. 00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:49.359 And uh, that's what you want. 00:22:49.519 --> 00:22:54.000 So I I mean, this is kind of a follow-up question in just this whole topic. 00:22:54.160 --> 00:22:57.359 How should schools measure the success of career connected learning? 00:22:57.440 --> 00:22:59.359 Are we measuring participation? 00:22:59.599 --> 00:23:01.200 Are we measuring activity? 00:23:01.519 --> 00:23:03.519 Are we measuring outcomes, right? 00:23:03.680 --> 00:23:10.319 Because uh sometimes I think we want to measure just an activity versus like, hey, what's the outcome of this? 00:23:11.039 --> 00:23:11.839 Yeah, absolutely. 00:23:12.000 --> 00:23:15.279 And I think this is a national topic, uh, certainly lately. 00:23:15.440 --> 00:23:19.440 Um, I do think participation matters, but I don't think alone it's an outcome. 00:23:19.519 --> 00:23:25.279 Um, I think we need to know who participated, who had access, and whether they completed experiences. 00:23:25.680 --> 00:23:31.200 Uh, certainly whether certain groups of students are systematically missing opportunities. 00:23:31.519 --> 00:23:38.319 But ultimately, I think we have to connect those opportunities to outcomes, be it post-secondary enrollment, credential attainment. 00:23:38.480 --> 00:23:40.000 You mentioned persistence earlier. 00:23:40.160 --> 00:23:47.839 I think that's really important, employment, earnings, and ultimately whether students are successfully transitioning into their next step. 00:23:48.160 --> 00:23:53.359 So on the national scale, we're really beginning to see this same shift reflected in policy. 00:23:53.519 --> 00:24:02.400 So, Workforce Pell, for example, explicitly ties program eligibility to outcomes like job placement and earnings. 00:24:02.559 --> 00:24:07.440 Um, so I think that really reflects an important evolution to how we think about accountability. 00:24:07.599 --> 00:24:19.200 So the question is really shifting from how many activities or opportunities did we provide to you know what happened to those students because of those opportunities. 00:24:19.279 --> 00:24:21.519 And I think that's a really positive shift. 00:24:21.920 --> 00:24:26.559 I see the mergence of in policy to your to your point. 00:24:26.720 --> 00:24:29.759 And I see it from a state level and I also see it from a federal level. 00:24:30.240 --> 00:24:37.920 And I hate to use this word, but I'm gonna use it to where they're taking policy and forcing the integration of these ideas. 00:24:38.400 --> 00:24:42.160 Uh, it's like if you want to receive the funding, you will do this. 00:24:42.480 --> 00:24:44.640 You and I were talking about this before we started this podcast. 00:24:44.799 --> 00:24:54.720 I think every federal grant I've done in the last six months has had a requirement that education work with workforce in their application. 00:24:54.880 --> 00:25:02.640 In other words, you can't even turn it in unless you say you have a workforce partner or a business partner or a higher ed partner. 00:25:02.960 --> 00:25:09.119 So I think you're starting to see these three big entities K-12, workforce, higher ed. 00:25:09.200 --> 00:25:11.519 Like, hey, you guys kind of start to work together. 00:25:11.759 --> 00:25:15.839 And we'll give you a lot of money to figure it out and through these federal programs. 00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:18.799 But I see it hard-coded in policy now. 00:25:19.039 --> 00:25:23.279 Like, you better be thinking about it because we're gonna measure you on that. 00:25:23.440 --> 00:25:27.119 And sometimes it takes policy to make people behave. 00:25:27.359 --> 00:25:33.599 As we start to think about this, like, what have you learned about implementing career-connected learning at scale? 00:25:34.480 --> 00:25:39.440 What are the lessons, challenges other state leaders should understand? 00:25:40.400 --> 00:25:42.240 Big loaded question there, Katie. 00:25:42.799 --> 00:25:46.160 And that's one we think about all the time, you know, working at a State Department of. 00:25:46.720 --> 00:25:56.319 I think scaling often we have to remind ourselves isn't simply doing more of the same thing at scale.

00:25:56.480 --> 00:26:00.000 It's really thinking about infrastructure. 00:26:00.240 --> 00:26:11.839 We have to think about having common language, thinking about quality expectations, thinking about data systems, employer engagement structures. 00:26:12.160 --> 00:26:15.440 We think a lot on our team about professional learning. 00:26:15.599 --> 00:26:27.599 Um, also at a you know, um public agency, we think about sustainable funding and clarity, especially about who owns what, especially when we're thinking about cross-agency partnerships. 00:26:28.079 --> 00:26:34.000 We often have to think about balancing consistency with local flexibility. 00:26:34.240 --> 00:26:36.079 I know I kind of mentioned that earlier. 00:26:36.559 --> 00:26:51.279 We can at the state level build frameworks and try to remove barriers, but communities need room, you know, to design around their students and their local economies. 00:26:51.440 --> 00:26:54.160 I think those are things we're always having to try to balance, right? 00:26:54.240 --> 00:26:58.000 It's not just doing more of the same thing all over the place. 00:26:58.079 --> 00:26:59.920 It's like, what's the infrastructure? 00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:04.079 Um, and have some guardrails in place for quality and consistency. 00:27:04.240 --> 00:27:07.680 And we've also learned that implementation takes time. 00:27:08.000 --> 00:27:21.759 We're constantly um called out all the time in education, especially at the state level, that a strong statewide system is built through sustained work, not creating new initiatives every single year. 00:27:22.319 --> 00:27:22.640 Yes. 00:27:22.960 --> 00:27:27.519 So new things, let them, let them run, right? 00:27:27.599 --> 00:27:34.160 And and build out the supports to help locals implement and stop creating new things every single year. 00:27:34.319 --> 00:27:41.200 Um I'm gonna plug a book, and I don't even know this author, so if this author stumbers across of it, they owe me some royalties. 00:27:41.279 --> 00:27:44.880 But there's a great book I read called The Allure of Order. 00:27:45.440 --> 00:27:51.119 And it really was about what makes sustainability work in public education policy. 00:27:51.200 --> 00:27:51.839 It was a great book. 00:27:51.920 --> 00:27:54.319 I read it years ago and I would defend it all day. 00:27:54.480 --> 00:28:02.960 And what they found through years of research is it's when you can sustain something for a long period of time, it works. 00:28:04.160 --> 00:28:17.279 Versus I'm gonna change every year, I'm gonna change every every time there's a new administration, we've got to throw everything out because and uh I remember reading that book, and they were really measuring what has the best long-term impact. 00:28:17.440 --> 00:28:22.160 And it's something that you can sustain and build out over time. 00:28:22.559 --> 00:28:31.680 I had a a state director call me one day, and they said, Hey Joseph, give me something new so I can have something flashy. 00:28:32.240 --> 00:28:42.240 And I mentioned a program that, by the way, very effective, large money, large research for 20 years. 00:28:42.480 --> 00:28:45.519 And I was like, Well, this program really works, and you're doing it really well. 00:28:45.599 --> 00:28:47.440 Why don't you just expand that? 00:28:47.759 --> 00:28:50.240 And this person said, Well, it's not flashy. 00:28:50.480 --> 00:28:52.079 I was like, Yeah, but it works. 00:28:53.039 --> 00:28:53.599 Why? 00:28:53.920 --> 00:28:58.799 We don't have to create things that are new, expand something that is working. 00:28:58.880 --> 00:29:00.720 Yeah, pull it into it. 00:29:01.200 --> 00:29:10.160 And man, I love that you said that because sometimes I feel like we abandon really good ideas before we ever see the true outcome. 00:29:10.960 --> 00:29:13.119 So, uh, two more questions for you. 00:29:13.519 --> 00:29:21.200 If you could change one policy, practice, or long-standing assumption to make career-connected learning more accessible to every student, what would it be? 00:29:21.599 --> 00:29:24.319 Yeah, I mean, kind of what you just shared. 00:29:24.559 --> 00:29:37.519 I think if I could change one policy or practice, I would challenge the assumption that career preparation and academic preparation are two different things. 00:29:38.400 --> 00:29:47.279 That divide influences class schedules, graduation requirements, accountability systems, staffing. 00:29:47.519 --> 00:29:50.319 And as we talked about, even the way adults talk to students. 00:29:50.559 --> 00:30:04.319 If we designed education around preparing students for both continued learning and meaningful work, I think many of the artificial barriers between academic, technical, and experiential learning would disappear. 00:30:05.519 --> 00:30:07.200 I so echo that, right? 00:30:07.359 --> 00:30:16.720 Uh, I mean, again, I run a company pathway to careers in our belief is how does academic and careers just become one? 00:30:16.880 --> 00:30:18.960 They're not even two separate conversations. 00:30:19.279 --> 00:30:24.559 To me, the definition of career connected learning is when they are done simultaneously. 00:30:24.880 --> 00:30:28.799 I am doing career awareness as I'm doing academic. 00:30:28.960 --> 00:30:32.079 We're not trying to separate the two in a math program. 00:30:32.319 --> 00:30:34.480 We put careers inside of math. 00:30:34.640 --> 00:30:38.720 And the idea behind this was like, what's the question kids ask about math, Katie? 00:30:39.359 --> 00:30:40.720 Why do I need to know this? 00:30:40.880 --> 00:30:42.640 When am I gonna blow up? 00:30:43.440 --> 00:30:48.480 And I I laugh sometimes because I'm like, I think we owe the students an answer. 00:30:48.799 --> 00:30:49.279 100%. 00:30:50.319 --> 00:30:51.759 We owe them an answer. 00:30:51.920 --> 00:30:54.480 Why do I have to learn what a quadratic function is? 00:30:54.640 --> 00:30:56.000 I don't care about it. 00:30:56.319 -->

00:30:59.759 And I'm not sure math teachers can answer that question sometimes. 00:31:00.000 --> 00:31:09.359 Because going back to what you said, your math teacher went to college, they went back to the classroom, but they don't have this experience about how a quadratic function is used. 00:31:09.519 --> 00:31:16.079 But I've had this experience to where we developed this math model to where we put careers inside of math to teach math. 00:31:16.240 --> 00:31:18.319 And I have a superintendent I respect a lot. 00:31:18.559 --> 00:31:23.200 She called me after I had met with her district, and she said, Oh, your math is amazing. 00:31:23.279 --> 00:31:24.480 It's the greatest thing I've ever seen. 00:31:24.640 --> 00:31:27.599 She said, It's great for my CTE kids. 00:31:28.880 --> 00:31:33.519 And I kind of paused, see, you were having the reaction I'm having. 00:31:33.759 --> 00:31:42.160 And I said, and again, I knew the superintendent very well, and I said, Hey, do you mind if I hold up a mirror and let's have a conversation? 00:31:42.319 --> 00:31:43.359 And she said, What do you mean? 00:31:43.440 --> 00:31:52.400 And I said, Why do you think a math lesson that has a career in it is only good for your CTE kids? 00:31:53.279 --> 00:31:54.559 CTE kids. 00:31:55.519 --> 00:31:59.359 But that's we're so ingrained in our philosophy. 00:31:59.519 --> 00:32:01.599 We see careers goes to CTE. 00:32:01.759 --> 00:32:05.039 We see raw academics, it goes over here to college kids. 00:32:05.279 --> 00:32:08.240 Abstract learning has been proven. 00:32:08.880 --> 00:32:15.759 If we want to change behavior in students, we got to start to change their attitude toward the subject material. 00:32:16.319 --> 00:32:21.279 Only way to change their attitude is to get relevancy and engagement high. 00:32:21.759 --> 00:32:26.880 I like I jokingly say, tell any student who hates math, you know what our solution is. 00:32:26.960 --> 00:32:28.720 I'm gonna make you do it twice, Katie. 00:32:29.839 --> 00:32:39.200 And not doing anything different, but it was an interesting conversation because this this superintendent was like, it's great for my CTE kids. 00:32:39.279 --> 00:32:41.200 I'm like, well, hold on a minute. 00:32:41.519 --> 00:32:52.319 Just because I put a career in a math lesson to teach a standard, why would you just assume that needs to go to CTE? 00:32:54.400 --> 00:33:01.839 In Nebraska, our CTE participation rate, most students take at least one CTE course, so I consider all students CTE students. 00:33:02.000 --> 00:33:07.839 But students who concentrate in CTE outperform non-CTE concentrators on our math, DLL, and science assessments. 00:33:08.000 --> 00:33:10.559 So they're outperforming non-CTE concentrators. 00:33:10.799 --> 00:33:12.799 I know, Katie, it drives me crazy. 00:33:15.359 --> 00:33:21.839 We have a deeper understanding of the material which allows them to adapt to new scenarios. 00:33:22.240 --> 00:33:24.079 One of my favorite CT statistics. 00:33:24.160 --> 00:33:30.960 So we know nationwide, about 50, I think it's 52, 53% of our kids graduate four years of college. 00:33:31.039 --> 00:33:32.960 Uh, and we've measured that in six years. 00:33:33.039 --> 00:33:34.240 That's a whole nother conversation. 00:33:34.799 --> 00:33:37.920 Assume 50% of our kids are graduating college. 00:33:38.160 --> 00:33:39.440 I love this stat. 00:33:39.519 --> 00:33:48.400 When CTE students decide to go to college, they graduate college at like higher than an 80% rate. 00:33:48.960 --> 00:33:54.400 And I could make an argument, we don't even tell CTE students to go to college. 00:33:55.279 --> 00:34:02.400 And they outperform the population we're spending all this energy on by 30 percentage points. 00:34:02.559 --> 00:34:06.000 And I tell everybody don't overthink the answer. 00:34:06.400 --> 00:34:14.800 They have purpose, yes, they have relevancy, and there's a lot more clarity to what they're doing. 00:34:15.760 --> 00:34:23.199 And they've had those 70 doors we started this conversation with uh of opportunities, and they're they're much more focused. 00:34:23.440 --> 00:34:28.559 And sometimes, again, best practice, forget CTE, forget academic. 00:34:28.960 --> 00:34:35.280 How even if you were about every kid graduates college, well, CTE kids that go to college graduate 80%. 00:34:36.239 --> 00:34:42.320 Maybe go learn what's going on over here and apply it to Gen Ed, and we would be better, right? 00:34:42.400 --> 00:34:48.719 And what gives you the greatest hope about the future of education, the opportunities we are creating for young people? 00:34:48.880 --> 00:34:51.440 Where do you hope in five years? 00:34:51.599 --> 00:34:55.039 Like, where do you hope this goes in Nebraska? 00:34:55.440 --> 00:34:57.199 Oh, so much gives me hope. 00:34:57.360 --> 00:35:09.199 I think what gives me the most hope is just how much more willing we're becoming to question the idea that there's only one definition of success after high school, kind of like what we talked about. 00:35:09.519 --> 00:35:18.079 Young people, I love everyone knows on my team, I'm much happier when I'm in a school, uh, when I'm with and surrounded by these incredible young people. 00:35:18.239 --> 00:35:22.639 They're curious, they're capable, and they are incredibly adaptable. 00:35:22.800 --> 00:35:34.559 Um, and when we give them these meaningful opportunities that we've been talking about to experience the world beyond school, they often see possibilities in themselves that they hadn't seen before. 00:35:34.719 --> 00:35:56.159 Um, so I'm also so encouraged, especially in Nebraska, by the growing willingness of educators and employers, post-secondary institutions, cross-agency partners, communities to see all of this is shared work, which I'm not sure was always the case, especially with career connected learning. 00:35:56.320 --> 00:35:59.599 And it's ultimately just about expanding the possibilities. 00:35:59.760

--> 00:36:13.920 And if we do it well, you know, students are leaving us not with their entire lives figured out, but with more options, stronger skills, meaningful relationships. 00:36:14.000 --> 00:36:16.800 We talk a lot about social capital in our world. 00:36:16.960 --> 00:36:21.360 Um, and ultimately they have the confidence to take their next steps. 00:36:21.519 --> 00:36:31.920 They don't have it all figured out, but they have the tools, they know where to turn, they have those resources, and and they're not leaving, you know, without knowing what those next steps are. 00:36:33.920 --> 00:36:35.840 Uh, I'm glad you touched on this. 00:36:35.920 --> 00:36:41.440 And I always say I can't solve the problem, I can put a dent in the problem. 00:36:41.760 --> 00:36:45.280 And I think social capital, I'm trying to increase social capital. 00:36:45.440 --> 00:36:45.679 Yep. 00:36:45.840 --> 00:36:51.760 I'm trying to give you awareness of these networks that exist for you to tap into. 00:36:52.159 --> 00:36:53.280 That's 100% right. 00:36:53.440 --> 00:36:55.599 Um, I love the idea of adaptability. 00:36:55.760 --> 00:36:57.760 I think that's where education needs to go. 00:36:58.079 --> 00:36:59.119 Katie, this has been awesome. 00:36:59.280 --> 00:37:02.639 Any final thoughts you want to share with anybody that stumbles across of this? 00:37:02.880 --> 00:37:04.800 No, just thanks for the opportunity. 00:37:05.039 --> 00:37:17.119 And um, career connected learning, career and technical education is just so critical to our learners and the broader workforce development system and education system. 00:37:17.440 --> 00:37:19.840 And we're always looking for more partners. 00:37:20.079 --> 00:37:25.519 Nebraska's a great place to be if you're looking for any opportunity to get in touch with me. 00:37:25.760 --> 00:37:31.360 Um, and yeah, just if you haven't been a part of the space or want to learn more, reach out to you, reach out to me. 00:37:31.519 --> 00:37:34.639 Um, it's it's really just kind of the the most exciting place. 00:37:34.800 --> 00:37:37.280 And as my colleagues say, it's hot right now. 00:37:37.599 --> 00:37:38.639 Now's the time to know. 00:37:38.800 --> 00:37:40.320 So uh yeah, get involved. 00:37:40.480 --> 00:37:43.519 And Katie, I promise I'm gonna make a trip to Nebraska very soon. 00:37:43.679 --> 00:37:45.039 But thank you very much, Katie. 00:37:45.519 --> 00:37:46.400 Thank you. 00:37:51.039 --> 00:37:56.320 Thanks for listening to Redesigning Readiness conversations on career connected learning. 00:37:56.480 --> 00:38:09.519 Visit p2c.org slash redesigning readiness to explore today's conversation with video highlights, the full transcript, an episode recap, and additional research and resources. 00:38:09.679 --> 00:38:13.039 And sign up to receive an email when a new episode is released. 00:38:13.119 --> 00:38:20.719 That's the letter P, the numeral to the letter C dot org slash redesigning readiness. 00:38:20.960 --> 00:38:23.280 Until the next conversation, thanks for listening.