התמלול המלא של Courage Is Not Always Fearlessness with Dr. Cynthia Pury

about reading those and and thinking about it and studying it. 00:05:10.720 --> 00:05:12.480 So I've been doing this ever since. 00:05:12.800 --> 00:05:17.759 Well, that's so wonderful to hear how you found yourself in one kind of place in one field. 00:05:17.839 --> 00:05:23.279 And then eventually over time, you discovered this whole other web, or at the time, not really a web. 00:05:23.360 --> 00:05:26.879 It was more of just the beginnings, the beginnings of the puzzle. 00:05:27.279 --> 00:05:28.560 A little spider over in the corner. 00:05:28.800 --> 00:05:32.000 A little spider that hasn't even formed a web yet. 00:05:32.399 --> 00:05:45.439 And I'm really loving to hear that you were comfortable with that change because for a lot of individuals, kind of a fear of change or not being courageous to embrace change that is around them is a really big thing in their lives. 00:05:45.600 --> 00:05:52.160 So I love that really courage came from you taking this act of courage and this curiosity and really running with it. 00:05:52.399 --> 00:05:53.680 So yeah, I kind of did. 00:05:53.759 --> 00:05:53.839 Yeah. 00:05:54.959 --> 00:05:56.800 That you kind of did and you started with. 00:05:56.959 --> 00:06:11.600 And now as we dive deeper into what actually your research focuses on and all of the kind of nitty-gritty content of courage, a lot of people don't understand really how courage is defined or how it is just within us. 00:06:11.759 --> 00:06:18.000 So for a lot of individuals, they may think that it's like a personality trait, as if some people are simply brave and others aren't. 00:06:18.240 --> 00:06:21.920 But what does your psychological research tell us about that idea? 00:06:22.079 --> 00:06:26.639 Isn't it actually true, or is it kind of a like a false claim? 00:06:26.959 --> 00:06:33.680 So what our so what our research suggests very strongly is that courage is taking a worthwhile risk. 00:06:33.920 --> 00:06:43.439 Things that people say that they've done that they call courageous, if you ask them, tell me something you did that was courageous, they'll say something that falls under that category. 00:06:43.519 --> 00:06:53.120 And that's like the most parsimonious way I can think of to describe it, is it's something that was risky to them in some way. 00:06:53.279 --> 00:06:59.439 And I'll get back to why I'm saying risk and not fear in a minute, but it's also something that was super valuable to them. 00:06:59.680 --> 00:07:13.040 So when I started doing this research, and still in the psychology of courage area, one of my really good research friends actually looks at courage as standing up to fear or acting despite fear. 00:07:13.279 --> 00:07:14.240 And that's cool. 00:07:14.879 --> 00:07:25.120 It comes from I most of the research in psychology about that seems to be done by people who are clinicians, who are psychotherapists. 00:07:25.360 --> 00:07:41.680 And so for them, in the context of psychotherapy, if you are a therapy client and your therapist is suggesting that you take some kind of a risk for no other reason whatsoever, like that therapist is not a very good therapist, right? 00:07:41.839 --> 00:07:50.000 That therapist is probably encouraging you to go do some kind of TikTok challenge or whatever the current stupid thing that people are doing is. 00:07:50.319 --> 00:07:51.199 That's not cool. 00:07:51.360 --> 00:07:53.040 That's that's not good, that's not useful. 00:07:53.360 --> 00:07:53.600 For sure. 00:07:54.000 --> 00:08:03.839 Um but if you look at research within philosophy, the the goal of the action is like super important. 00:08:04.160 --> 00:08:10.879 And when people describe these actions, the goal of their action is really important. 00:08:11.040 --> 00:08:11.199 Yeah. 00:08:12.319 --> 00:08:18.079 Uh the there's some wonderful work done by Chris Wright a bunch of years ago. 00:08:18.240 --> 00:08:20.079 Shout out to Chris if he's listening. 00:08:20.240 --> 00:08:24.160 He's just contacted me and said he's interested in getting back involved in courage. 00:08:24.240 --> 00:08:25.199 And I'm like, that's great. 00:08:25.360 --> 00:08:39.360 So, but anyway, I so his research suggested these, like these three components a sense of that there's risk to the actor, that there is a worthwhile or meaningful goal, and that the person does it voluntarily. 00:08:39.600 --> 00:08:50.879 So if you and I are trapped in a building and the ceiling is falling, and I fall in trip and knock you down out of the way of a beam, like that's a lucky accident for you. 00:08:51.200 --> 00:08:52.879 But it's not egregious of me at all. 00:08:53.039 --> 00:08:54.159 It was just an accident. 00:08:54.559 --> 00:08:55.519 By coincidence, yeah. 00:08:55.759 --> 00:08:58.480 Yeah, it's gotta be an intentional sort of thing. 00:08:58.639 --> 00:09:11.919 Likewise, if if I misunderstand some kind of social situation and I do something that in retrospect is like, wow, you really stood up for the friend, or wow, you really stood up for what you think is right. 00:09:12.080 --> 00:09:14.879 And it's like, no, I thought that that's what she thought. 00:09:15.039 --> 00:09:18.879 You know, like that's not, that's just me misunderstanding the situation. 00:09:19.200 --> 00:09:33.200 Um compared to if I purposely go, you know, that's what this person's thinking is not right or fair about this other person gonna say something. 00:09:33.360 --> 00:09:34.399 That would be courageous. 00:09:34.639 --> 00:09:41.440 And I mention risk and not fear because a lot of times people will report no fear. 00:09:41.679 --> 00:09:45.600 Um yeah, and because whatever it is happened really fast. 00:09:45.679 --> 00:09:56.639 And sometimes when they report fear, the fear that they report is not so much of anything about them, but it's about not succeeding in the situation. 00:09:56.960 --> 00:10:11.600 So if I don't if there's a baby that runs into the street, yeah, a toddler that runs into the street,

and there's a car coming. 00:10:11.759 --> 00:10:12.879 I'm gonna be terrified. 00:10:13.039 --> 00:10:19.120 I'm gonna be terrified of seeing something terrible happening to this baby or this bad thing happening to this baby. 00:10:19.279 --> 00:10:22.000 I'm not so much terrified of anything happening to me. 00:10:22.240 --> 00:10:26.720 I'm still gonna report feeling afraid, but it's more about this didn't succeed in front. 00:10:27.279 --> 00:10:27.360 Yeah. 00:10:27.600 --> 00:10:28.960 It's a difference, it's a difference. 00:10:29.200 --> 00:10:31.919 Compared to risk seems to capture that really well. 00:10:32.080 --> 00:10:48.720 Uh additionally, Chris's work shows that people who are very that some courageous act, some definitions of courage say you're fearless, and some definitions of courage say you have to be afraid. 00:10:49.039 --> 00:11:10.240 And yeah, and so that's if you say you have to be afraid, then you end up with this conundrum that people who routinely do things that actually get awards for valor, firefighters, are less courageous because they're less afraid of going into and it's like, well, that doesn't make any sense either. 00:11:10.799 --> 00:11:12.000 Um yeah. 00:11:12.320 --> 00:11:32.320 So one of the big distinctions that I think is really important to make is whether you're interested in if the person's gonna do the thing or if you're interested in calling the person courageous, because courage has the two big components in addition to voluntariness. 00:11:32.399 --> 00:11:36.000 It's got the the goal of the action and the risk. 00:11:36.240 --> 00:11:47.360 And for me to say an action is courageous, and for me to take the action, I have to think that this is a good, noble, valuable goal. 00:11:47.679 --> 00:11:49.039 Yeah, for sure. 00:11:49.279 --> 00:11:49.759 For sure. 00:11:50.000 --> 00:11:58.000 And for a lot of adolescents, there's a lot of things that they're very, very passionate about and things that they might want to change. 00:11:58.159 --> 00:12:05.039 However, sometimes, as you explained, it's not always fear, but kind of this risk factor that can persuade them not to pursue that thing. 00:12:05.279 --> 00:12:15.600 Is there a reason why we see in adolescents in particular kind of this bigger hesitation to take courageous acts in their community, especially socially and kind of emotionally? 00:12:15.759 --> 00:12:16.159 Yeah. 00:12:16.399 --> 00:12:23.200 Well, I think your social life expands so much in adolescence that it it's all new. 00:12:23.440 --> 00:12:30.480 It's all new and you're kind of feeling out your spot, and that could make those social risks worse. 00:12:30.960 --> 00:12:40.240 Um but I kind of circling back to what we had just talked about, though, if the the risk sort of runs in the opposite direction. 00:12:40.559 --> 00:12:52.399 So if you do something to create a safer social atmosphere, people are more likely to pursue the meaningful things, whatever it may turn out. 00:12:53.279 --> 00:12:54.960 Is it l more courageous? 00:12:55.039 --> 00:12:56.159 Is it less courageous? 00:12:56.320 --> 00:12:59.120 I don't know, but they're doing the things that they should be doing. 00:12:59.200 --> 00:13:02.879 And I think that that's kind of the ultimate important thing. 00:13:03.120 --> 00:13:15.519 One of the things that I really love about my hobby job of being education director for an improv theater is that improv training kind of does that within the social realm. 00:13:15.759 --> 00:13:16.559 Yeah, naturally. 00:13:17.120 --> 00:13:17.759 So, yeah. 00:13:17.919 --> 00:13:26.080 So one of the big, one of the very, one of the first lessons I learned when I started improv was like mistakes are fine. 00:13:26.240 --> 00:13:27.600 We celebrate the mistakes here. 00:13:27.679 --> 00:13:38.799 In fact, my uh 101 teacher had us throw our hands up in the air and yell like Rover every time we made a mistake or celebrating other people's mistakes, like the very first day within the first couple minutes. 00:13:38.879 --> 00:13:42.639 And I was like, that's this is really nice. 00:13:42.799 --> 00:13:50.399 So it's much easier to take a risk of making a fool of yourself in front of other people when everybody else was doing it too. 00:13:50.480 --> 00:13:57.519 It was like exactly it just took the sting out of it, took the risk out of it, and it made it possible to go do these other things. 00:13:57.840 --> 00:14:13.759 And a lot of anti-bullying programs are in schools are trying to do a similar kind of thing of of really creating an atmosphere where saying, hey, that's not cool is less risky. 00:14:14.080 --> 00:14:17.759 Um and I think that's definitely for the good. 00:14:17.919 --> 00:14:18.960 I agree. 00:14:19.360 --> 00:14:23.679 Ultimately we want people to do the right thing. 00:14:24.240 --> 00:14:24.559 For sure. 00:14:24.960 --> 00:14:29.679 More than we want them to be courageous and stand up to others. 00:14:30.159 --> 00:14:45.679 And when I've consulted with anybody who does any kind of leadership training, a really big point that I always try to make is that if people have to be courageous to talk to you, you're doing your job wrong. 00:14:46.080 --> 00:14:46.879 Don't do that. 00:14:47.120 --> 00:14:47.440 Yeah. 00:14:47.679 --> 00:14:48.000 Right. 00:14:48.320 --> 00:14:49.120 So yeah. 00:14:50.399 --> 00:14:56.320 And in those situations, there's a lot of weighing that kind of risk and reward. 00:14:56.480 --> 00:15:01.440 And for a lot of those individuals, it may seem that a positive outcome could come about. 00:15:01.600 --> 00:15:17.600 And that by taking that kind of stance, as you said, it's not always a courageous act, but it's more of just kind of like putting yourself out there and kind of feeling a certain way and taking that step further than maybe the individuals around you and going past those fears within your head. 00:15:17.919 --> 00:15:25.679 How do people mentally weigh the possible

costs of an action against what they may believe could be a positive gain from it? 00:15:25.759 --> 00:15:28.480 Is there a process that our brain undergoes during this situation? 00:15:31.039 --> 00:15:34.480 That's a good question that we're still working on. 00:15:34.960 --> 00:15:43.600 Um there's a really lovely theory out there by a Kaj Chaukes and a couple of colleagues. 00:15:43.840 --> 00:15:49.440 And he looks at whether he looks at sort of two different kinds of courage. 00:15:49.679 --> 00:15:57.039 One is it's kind of like the thinking fast and slow idea, if you're familiar with that, where we got a uh process one and a process two. 00:15:57.519 --> 00:16:02.480 Process one is instant, you know, like you see the thing, you go, you do. 00:16:02.720 --> 00:16:05.360 And there's a sense of urgency about those. 00:16:05.440 --> 00:16:08.799 And process two is where it's slower and more deliberate. 00:16:08.879 --> 00:16:13.519 And we're in the process of working on a joint project together to try to investigate this a little bit more. 00:16:13.840 --> 00:16:18.159 We don't really have any evidence on it yet that's, you know, like ready to talk about. 00:16:18.480 --> 00:16:22.399 But theory behind it makes a whole lot of sense. 00:16:22.799 --> 00:16:23.120 Okay. 00:16:24.159 --> 00:16:34.159 So it if it's something where you have a lot of training and you have so like lifeguards, lots of teenage learn lifeguards, for example. 00:16:34.320 --> 00:16:46.559 Uh and I would say that one of the one of the top responses that I get from college, from beginning college students who are answering a question about a time they were courageous in the past. 00:16:46.799 --> 00:16:51.519 One of the number one answers is I saved someone from drowning when I was a lifeguard. 00:16:52.480 --> 00:16:54.000 And you have training for that. 00:16:54.159 --> 00:16:55.120 You have training for that. 00:16:55.519 --> 00:16:56.000 You're prepared. 00:16:57.120 --> 00:16:57.360 Yeah. 00:16:57.440 --> 00:17:04.640 So that's a very different experience than a situation where A, you have a lot of time to think about it. 00:17:06.079 --> 00:17:13.519 Best friend is bullying the new kid at school, and this is an ongoing thing. 00:17:13.599 --> 00:17:15.279 It's happened every day. 00:17:15.440 --> 00:17:22.240 You know, it's not like an emergency, but it is a thing, and you're uncomfortable with it. 00:17:22.480 --> 00:17:24.079 And are you gonna say something? 00:17:24.240 --> 00:17:25.440 Aren't you gonna say something? 00:17:25.599 --> 00:17:42.079 If that's the case, you have time to kind of think about it and test out the waters and practice what you're gonna say, talk it over with other people who you trust, just rehearse it in your head, look it up online, see what advice people have. 00:17:42.319 --> 00:17:44.640 That's a really different process. 00:17:44.880 --> 00:17:46.640 And yeah. 00:17:46.880 --> 00:17:55.359 So, and in those situations, people are often doing things to increase the chance that they're successful and also increase their safety. 00:17:55.519 --> 00:17:57.519 But that's what the training is meant to do, also. 00:17:57.680 --> 00:17:57.920 Exactly. 00:17:58.240 --> 00:18:11.359 So if you do think about lifeguard training, it's uh how can you rescue someone safely and how can you increase the chances that you're going to succeed in doing that? 00:18:11.920 --> 00:18:20.480 And in that kind of first web, as you said, in the kind of emergency urgency zone of things or lifeguards are just one example of it. 00:18:20.720 --> 00:18:22.880 Does it always have to involve being trained? 00:18:22.960 --> 00:18:32.960 Or what happens when, as you referenced before, with the kind of baby thing where it's happening right in front of you, is it a similar reaction into our in our brain, or is it just called your flight? 00:18:33.200 --> 00:18:35.200 I I don't know about reactions in your brain. 00:18:35.279 --> 00:18:44.160 It would be really hard to measure that because almost all of our brain measurements require that you're in a little metal tube and you're not like moving. 00:18:44.319 --> 00:18:49.519 So I was just at a con an online conference the other day about improv psychology, actually. 00:18:50.000 --> 00:18:54.240 And they were doing improv with people in the little metal tube. 00:18:54.319 --> 00:19:04.960 And I was like, aha, that's brilliant, because you can do that, but you can't have somebody go rescue someone physically in the little metal tube. 00:19:05.119 --> 00:19:10.880 And also you're not expecting the social rejection things to happen in the little metal tube and so forth. 00:19:11.119 --> 00:19:16.720 So I kind of stay away from the in-the-brain thing for myself and my own research. 00:19:17.200 --> 00:19:25.839 But the idea, though, is that I I think psychologically it's a similar sort of process of, you know, what's your instinct? 00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:28.160 Act on your instinct to do this thing. 00:19:28.559 --> 00:19:32.880 Well, that makes a complete entire amount of sense. 00:19:33.039 --> 00:19:42.640 And as you amplified, there's still research going on, and there's ways that we're kind of advancing our understanding every day, which is so wonderful to hear because we can always learn more about these things. 00:19:43.279 --> 00:19:55.039 And I think something that might speak to a couple of our listeners is when they face a situation where maybe them and their friend, them and their family member both notice essentially the same situation in front of them. 00:19:55.279 --> 00:20:05.759 But one of the individuals sees it as an opportunity to act and be courageous and maybe speak up, while the other one has a reason to hold back or maybe is just more reluctant to. 00:20:06.160 --> 00:20:10.480 What kind of may explain those different interpretations of the same risk? 00:20:10.559 --> 00:20:15.440 And is it just people that again kind of weighing those

goals and rewards and things of that? 00:20:15.759 --> 00:20:19.200 I mean, I think there's there can be so many things. 00:20:19.359 --> 00:20:21.119 There can be what is it that you see? 00:20:21.279 --> 00:20:23.759 How is it that you're seeing the situation? 00:20:24.160 --> 00:20:34.079 But it can also be what's your history with the risk of this thing, or do you have any particular vulnerabilities or strengths about a thing? 00:20:34.240 --> 00:20:45.680 So one of the examples that I often give is as a full-time faculty member at a large university, part of my job of giving talks to large people all the time. 00:20:45.920 --> 00:20:50.880 I have a class uh tomorrow that's got four, like four, almost 400 people in it. 00:20:51.039 --> 00:20:56.319 And, you know, and I just go and I do my thing and I put on the microphone and I talk to people, and that's my job. 00:20:56.480 --> 00:21:02.720 And I was describing this to somebody once, and he was just like, ooh, you're really great. 00:21:02.960 --> 00:21:05.839 And I'm like, not really, I'm just not afraid of it. 00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:08.960 And it doesn't feel risky to me anymore. 00:21:09.119 --> 00:21:09.359 Yeah. 00:21:09.519 --> 00:21:13.839 And I think the difference is, you know, like I'm used to it. 00:21:13.920 --> 00:21:16.079 I did a lot of public speaking things in high school. 00:21:16.240 --> 00:21:23.839 I actually wanted to become a faculty member because I thought like the lecture looked cool and fun, but I am really afraid of heights. 00:21:24.160 --> 00:21:36.960 And so if you asked me to go into our large 600-person auditorium and change just one of the light bulbs that's up on little beautiful pendant fixtures hanging from the ceiling. 00:21:37.519 --> 00:21:38.240 Nope. 00:21:38.480 --> 00:21:40.640 Nope, that's not a no, no. 00:21:41.279 --> 00:21:45.440 But our electricians and maintenance people like that is what they do. 00:21:46.000 --> 00:21:46.480 For sure. 00:21:46.799 --> 00:21:51.519 You know, I doubt that they find it threatening or concerning at all. 00:21:51.759 --> 00:21:54.640 They have the equipment and they have the training to do it. 00:21:54.960 --> 00:21:59.759 I have the the background and and yeah, some of the equipment. 00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:02.079 To do the speech, the speech. 00:22:02.240 --> 00:22:06.799 Like I said, I have a microphone and I have my slides all set and prepared. 00:22:07.200 --> 00:22:18.319 So those kinds of things can make one situation look really courageous for one person and not for another, for example, or make one person more likely to take action and not another. 00:22:18.960 --> 00:22:23.519 That makes sense as a bunch of different things happen to a lot of individuals throughout their entire lives. 00:22:23.680 --> 00:22:29.599 And a lot of different experiences shape the way we act, not just courageously, but also just in general. 00:22:29.839 --> 00:22:32.960 So that actually makes a lot of sense and stuff like that. 00:22:33.279 --> 00:22:45.200 I was also gonna say, we also have things that we we also have a lot of differences in what we think is worthwhile and what is valuable and what's like what's a problem to be addressed. 00:22:45.519 --> 00:22:49.519 There's there's differences in how people see what a problem is to be addressed. 00:22:49.680 --> 00:22:56.400 Like, is this is this a normal social interaction or is that something that's really hurtful? 00:22:56.640 --> 00:23:01.279 Um do I have extra information to know why it might be really hurtful, for example. 00:23:01.440 --> 00:23:09.039 Maybe I do, maybe I don't, maybe I'm misreading the situation and it's not super hurtful and I'm jumping in and being annoying. 00:23:09.200 --> 00:23:10.000 I don't know. 00:23:10.319 --> 00:23:15.599 It's it's a it's a really complicated kind of world out there. 00:23:15.839 --> 00:23:29.519 And one of the things that I think is super interesting is that when we look at from the outside what looks uh what looks courageous, there are some a few universals. 00:23:30.160 --> 00:23:42.640 So everyone thinks fire is dangerous, pretty much, and everyone thinks saving people's lives is a good idea, pretty much. 00:23:43.279 --> 00:23:48.960 And so firefighters are kind of like the universal symbol of courage, as far as I can tell you. 00:23:49.279 --> 00:23:49.440 Yeah. 00:23:49.920 --> 00:23:56.000 Um paramedics may or may not be depending on how you feel about blood. 00:23:57.759 --> 00:24:05.359 So for people who who are super squeamish, paramedics are probably gonna seem a little bit more courageous than for people who are less squeamish. 00:24:05.519 --> 00:24:12.480 For people who are aware that paramedics often go into physically dangerous situations, they're gonna seem more courageous. 00:24:12.640 --> 00:24:14.720 But yeah, so it it it kind of depends. 00:24:14.799 --> 00:24:24.000 And then there's lots of other situations where there will be like specific awards given for bravery in very good context. 00:24:24.160 --> 00:24:27.920 So there's a a really neat award for courage in journalism. 00:24:28.000 --> 00:24:40.160 I'm forgetting the name of it at the top of my head, but it's got this very specific set of characteristics, and it's given by people who understand what the hard things are about being a journalist. 00:24:42.319 --> 00:24:42.960 Yeah. 00:24:43.279 --> 00:24:43.680 Yeah. 00:24:43.920 --> 00:24:58.960 And for all of those individuals, I think a really cool thing for adolescents is that they can look up to those people and say, whoa, wow, they took a really courageous act that might be really rare, for instance, like a fire and saving a person. 00:24:59.359 --> 00:25:13.680 Yes, for firefighters, it's more consistent, but for somebody to see that, just like a regular adolescent to see that, that's considered very courageous, not just because it's saving a person's life, but also because it's this massive kind of event and it's a thing

happening and it's inspiring and whatever it may be. 00:25:13.920 --> 00:25:24.319 And for a lot of individuals, feeling that the people around them are doing things that are really positive and kind of benefiting the world can also inspire them to do things. 00:25:24.480 --> 00:25:30.720 So do you think that somebody taking a courageous act could kind of lead other people to taking similar courageous acts? 00:25:30.799 --> 00:25:36.799 And do you think that external influences have kind of like a big persuasion on the way that we do things? 00:25:37.920 --> 00:25:39.519 Uh, people are very social. 00:25:39.759 --> 00:25:42.480 Social learning is a great big old thing. 00:25:42.559 --> 00:25:48.880 If any of your listeners are familiar with the Bandura bubble doll experiments, this goes, this is a very old idea. 00:25:49.680 --> 00:25:53.599 And we we see what other people do and we emulate them. 00:25:53.759 --> 00:26:03.599 I have seen, given the the date that we're recording this, on the day after Dolly Parton died, there's just a zillion things in the media about be like Dolly. 00:26:03.759 --> 00:26:10.799 And they're they pick out different things that she did to different praise. 00:26:11.039 --> 00:26:13.440 And yeah, some of them talk about her being courageous. 00:26:13.599 --> 00:26:20.160 Most of them are more like she was just a really, really good person and you know, tried to help other people, and that was great. 00:26:20.480 --> 00:26:25.039 But surely the intent in all of this is literally be like Dolly. 00:26:25.200 --> 00:26:35.680 And I think that that is a common sort of thing that folks do is they look at things that other people do. 00:26:35.920 --> 00:26:44.640 One of the things that I personally really think is, and and now I'm saying this about Dolly, but I'm I'm meaning the things that she did. 00:26:44.720 --> 00:26:46.559 I did not know her as a person. 00:26:46.880 --> 00:26:50.799 Did not did not ever cross paths with her, to my knowledge. 00:26:51.279 --> 00:27:00.000 But the things that I I really love is that people are praising very specific actions that she took. 00:27:00.640 --> 00:27:17.039 Like founding the Send a Book to Kid charity, like keeping the copyright for her songs, sharing her songs with other people, and they're giving very specific instances of these things instead of like she was a great, beautiful person. 00:27:17.279 --> 00:27:34.240 And a lot of times the kind of monuments that we erect to people who've done great things are sort of like here is this great person who's done this great, here is this great person who had these immutable characteristics. 00:27:34.480 --> 00:27:39.119 And I just don't think that's a useful way to think. 00:27:39.279 --> 00:27:46.400 I think it makes more sense to think like, okay, I guess if you want to go with the characteristics, what would this person do? 00:27:46.559 --> 00:27:47.599 What would Dolly do? 00:27:47.920 --> 00:27:55.279 Or keeping the rights to your songs is a good idea. 00:27:55.440 --> 00:27:57.839 How can I do something similar to that in my own life? 00:27:58.240 --> 00:27:59.759 Yeah, to keep my own ideas, yeah. 00:28:00.480 --> 00:28:07.440 Help using using my advantages to help other people when I can is a really good idea. 00:28:07.599 --> 00:28:09.200 How can I do that? 00:28:09.440 --> 00:28:18.480 The town I live in, Greenville, South Carolina, has a ton of statues of various famous residents and pastors. 00:28:19.680 --> 00:28:22.880 Almost all of them are sort of the great person statue. 00:28:22.960 --> 00:28:30.480 We don't, to my knowledge, I don't think we have too many people up on horseback, but we do have a lot of people looking noble, right? 00:28:30.720 --> 00:28:36.000 We have a couple of people sitting, one of them is just sitting next to a point set of flower because it's for point set. 00:28:36.480 --> 00:28:37.920 The point set is named after. 00:28:38.559 --> 00:28:49.039 Um but the one I really love, I just love this one, is of John Townsend who invented the laser, which oh wow. 00:28:49.279 --> 00:28:50.960 Lasers are amazing. 00:28:51.519 --> 00:29:10.720 And it's a it's a statue, it's not a statue of him just looking smart, it's not a statue even of him holding a laser, it's a statue of him as he described the moment he was sitting on a bench outside his office with his lunch and he had the idea for the laser. 00:29:10.880 --> 00:29:13.279 And I'm like, yes, I love that. 00:29:13.759 --> 00:29:26.160 And I think when when we talk about praising people for things, I really love the idea of praising actions, especially publicly, because that's so much easier to think. 00:29:26.319 --> 00:29:27.759 How can I do that? 00:29:28.079 --> 00:29:28.960 Exactly. 00:29:29.440 --> 00:29:32.960 Now, all of this is completely different than your family. 00:29:33.119 --> 00:29:40.240 Your family, your family should love you and should have this good idea of your immutable, great, wonderful traits. 00:29:40.319 --> 00:29:40.960 That's perfect. 00:29:41.279 --> 00:29:41.680 That's fine. 00:29:41.759 --> 00:29:42.720 Don't touch that. 00:29:43.039 --> 00:29:56.559 But when we when we broaden it to the cultural significance or cultural signifier, I think we do a disservice by focusing on traits instead of actions. 00:29:56.720 --> 00:29:59.839 I think that actions should be what we're looking at. 00:30:00.160 --> 00:30:01.119 A priority. 00:30:01.599 --> 00:30:02.079 Yeah. 00:30:02.240 --> 00:30:10.400 And even if the person goes on and does not great things in other areas of their life, it's like, okay, so there's like an old movie, Schindler's List. 00:30:10.559 --> 00:30:12.799 I don't know if you're familiar with it. 00:30:12.960 --> 00:30:17.519 But Schindler was like a sort of, meh, he was a fine person, you know. 00:30:18.400 --> 00:30:19.200 He's a guy. 00:30:19.440 --> 00:30:21.279 He did a really great thing. 00:30:21.599 --> 00:30:22.880 This one really great

thing. 00:30:23.039 --> 00:30:24.400 Was the rest of his life great? 00:30:24.720 --> 00:30:25.039 No. 00:30:25.599 --> 00:30:32.400 But he did this one really great thing, and that's worthy of celebrating, no matter what happens with other parts of his life. 00:30:33.039 --> 00:30:33.279 Exactly. 00:30:33.920 --> 00:30:34.400 Yeah. 00:30:34.640 --> 00:30:36.559 So that would be my thought. 00:30:36.720 --> 00:30:42.720 And that also kind of goes along with my idea that I genuinely don't think that there are brave people and cowardly people. 00:30:42.799 --> 00:30:44.400 I think everybody can be brave in their own. 00:30:44.799 --> 00:30:45.839 Everyone has the opportunity. 00:30:46.000 --> 00:30:46.079 Yeah. 00:30:46.319 --> 00:30:46.400 Yeah. 00:30:46.480 --> 00:30:47.440 And I loved it. 00:30:47.680 --> 00:31:00.480 And I love to hear that because for adolescents who maybe don't always take that chance to be a little extra courageous in their day-to-day lives, hearing that they can be courageous, they just need to work on a couple of things, is really, really good. 00:31:00.640 --> 00:31:07.839 And on that note, because we just talked about kind of looking up to individuals and how that can shape our individual courage within ourselves. 00:31:08.079 --> 00:31:16.880 Are there other kind of simple practices if an individual wants to become more courageous day-to-day and push past those risk factors that they can apply? 00:31:17.279 --> 00:31:26.480 I think if there's something that feels particularly risky to you as an individual, if there's something you can do about it to get more comfortable with it, that's great. 00:31:26.640 --> 00:31:36.559 But also if there's something that's really meaningful to you, you can think about why that's really meaningful to you and why it might be worth taking a risk to get to where that goes. 00:31:36.720 --> 00:31:44.799 All that said, you know, you need to be careful that you're not, that you're doing something that in the future you would also be proud of. 00:31:44.960 --> 00:31:46.559 That's really, really important. 00:31:46.880 --> 00:31:55.440 So I think especially thinking about future you and what is future you gonna think if they look back at this, are they gonna be like, oh my gosh, no? 00:31:56.240 --> 00:31:59.759 Or are they gonna be like, oh yeah, that was really cool. 00:31:59.920 --> 00:32:04.160 And and this is a thing that I I did or I tried to do that I was really proud of. 00:32:04.319 --> 00:32:05.440 A couple of caveats. 00:32:05.920 --> 00:32:10.400 If you don't succeed in reaching your goal, you're less likely to call it courageous. 00:32:10.640 --> 00:32:18.079 Um other people are less likely to see it as courageous, and you are less likely to nominate it as something that you did that was courageous. 00:32:18.319 --> 00:32:20.720 So that's just a thing to be aware of. 00:32:21.119 --> 00:32:22.319 Just a thing to be aware of. 00:32:22.400 --> 00:32:28.400 I mean, I think it makes sense because that means that it wasn't as worthwhile because it didn't work out. 00:32:28.880 --> 00:32:39.359 Um it's also I think important to think about things that are are personally courageous for you. 00:32:39.599 --> 00:33:01.920 So if you have a bad history with something and doing some kind of good action would be especially hard for you personally, like donating blood if you're afraid of a needle or uh giving a in your class if you're afraid of public speaking or something like that. 00:33:02.480 --> 00:33:06.559 It might not look courageous to other people, but you know that it felt risky. 00:33:06.960 --> 00:33:07.680 You know, deep down. 00:33:07.759 --> 00:33:11.759 Yeah, you know it was courageous, and that's really important. 00:33:12.079 --> 00:33:12.880 Really important. 00:33:13.039 --> 00:33:22.079 And I think it's also really crucial to realize that trying and trying to be courageous, even if you don't succeed, is better than not doing it at all. 00:33:22.319 --> 00:33:48.079 Because while there may be a situation where the outcome isn't exactly what you hoped for, or other people aren't recognizing you for being this really courageous person who did this action that was wonderful, trying and really kind of testing your boundaries and realizing that, huh, maybe this thing wasn't as important to me as I realized, or maybe it's more important to me because the outcome was bigger than I predicted. 00:33:48.240 --> 00:33:56.160 All comes from trying and really putting your best foot forward, which I think for all adolescents is something that in a bunch of different realms they can apply. 00:33:56.400 --> 00:34:10.719 So finally, as we close out this episode, if every adolescent or young adult is listening and they're facing a situation where they're afraid of the consequences, but also feel that something is so important enough that they need to act on it. 00:34:10.960 --> 00:34:13.039 What is one idea from your research? 00:34:13.199 --> 00:34:18.880 I know one is a little hard to kind of summarize, that you would want them to keep in mind. 00:34:20.159 --> 00:34:24.960 How are you gonna feel about that action 10 years from now? 00:34:25.119 --> 00:34:28.400 I really think that's probably one of the most important ones. 00:34:28.559 --> 00:34:28.880 Yeah. 00:34:29.119 --> 00:34:33.280 Um is this an enduring thing that you're pursuing? 00:34:33.760 --> 00:34:37.599 Or is this just like a temporary fleeting kind of a thing? 00:34:37.840 --> 00:34:49.199 And and also if it's really important to know that if people that sometimes people who do things that societally we just go, that was terrible. 00:34:49.360 --> 00:34:50.480 You should not have done that. 00:34:50.559 --> 00:34:52.239 That was really bad. 00:34:52.719 --> 00:34:54.719 They will feel courageous while they're doing it. 00:34:54.800 --> 00:34:58.000 They actually use the language of courage to describe it. 00:34:58.320 --> 00:35:04.400 And so don't get fooled into being courageous to do something that would be terrible. 00:35:04.559 --> 00:35:05.440 You don't want to do that. 00:35:05.679 --> 00:35:05.920 Yeah. 00:35:06.079 --> 00:35:06.320 Yeah. 00:35:06.480 --> 00:35:16.400 Well, thank you for closing it on such a reflective note and one that I think will really stick with adolescents and young adults as they continue into the future because things really do have an impact on the rest of our lives. 00:35:16.480 --> 00:35:22.000 And just keeping that in mind and being aware of it is a wonderful thing to kind of continue on to do. 00:35:22.159 --> 00:35:22.639 So, Dr. 00:35:22.800 --> 00:35:28.480 Purry, thank you so much for helping us look at courage in a more complicated and much more human way. 00:35:28.719 --> 00:35:38.079 I really appreciate you taking the time to tell our listeners a little bit more about this dense topic that really does root from inside each and every one of us. 00:35:38.239 --> 00:35:40.639 So, thank you so much for joining us today. 00:35:40.960 --> 00:35:42.000 You're welcome. 00:35:42.320 --> 00:35:44.159 It was a pleasure talking with you. 00:35:44.480 --> 00:35:46.000 It was a pleasure talking to you as well. 00:35:46.079 --> 00:35:52.400 And to all of our listeners, I think today's conversation challenges the idea that courageous people are simply fearless. 00:35:52.559 --> 00:35:58.400 Instead, courage seems to involve how we understand fear, risk, values, and the situation we're facing. 00:35:58.559 --> 00:36:03.679 And for adolescents and young adults, that can matter in ways that don't always look dramatic. 00:36:03.920 --> 00:36:06.400 It might be raising your hand when you're nervous about being wrong. 00:36:06.559 --> 00:36:09.360 It might be telling a friend something that they need to hear. 00:36:09.519 --> 00:36:17.119 It may be standing up for someone else, trying something unfamiliar, or refusing to stay silent simply because you're worried about what other people were thinking. 00:36:17.280 --> 00:36:19.280 Courage doesn't always announce itself. 00:36:19.360 --> 00:36:23.280 Sometimes it's a very small decision made in a very ordinary moment. 00:36:23.440 --> 00:36:26.480 And those moments can teach us something important about ourselves. 00:36:26.719 --> 00:36:31.920 Being afraid and considering the risks doesn't automatically mean we shouldn't act. 00:36:32.079 --> 00:36:37.760 Sometimes it means simply we have something meaningful to consider and something to apply to the life around us. 00:36:37.920 --> 00:36:41.679 So thank you so much for joining me on another episode of Growing Forward. 00:36:41.840 --> 00:36:47.679 I'll see you next time as we continue exploring the psychology behind the experiences that shape who we are becoming. 00:36:47.920 --> 00:36:53.440 Starting off with loads of positivity, as always, this is your host, Sadie Sonaborn Malachi.