התמלול המלא של Never Entertained: GTA 6 versus Zelda is the wrong fight

console to Roblox. 00:03:54.159 --> 00:03:54.560 Thank you. 00:03:54.719 --> 00:03:58.479 Justin, you're gonna be bringing the advertising and business perspective. 00:03:58.800 --> 00:03:59.599 Say hello. 00:03:59.919 --> 00:04:01.360 Hi, good morning. 00:04:01.599 --> 00:04:03.199 Uh Justin Ruiz. 00:04:03.360 --> 00:04:16.560 I'm uh the senior vice president of media research, doing everything, researching everything that Simon was talking about, including advertising and trying to understand where the puck is moving. 00:04:17.439 --> 00:04:19.759 Welcome to the show, Colin. 00:04:20.399 --> 00:04:23.920 Yeah, Colin Nees, SVP of Gaming at Screen Engine ASI. 00:04:24.000 --> 00:04:33.040 I do spend an all-normal amount of time thinking about the game industry, and I write a weekly newsletter called Patches, and occasionally I come on with Greg to banter about the gaming industry. 00:04:33.279 --> 00:04:34.639 But hello everyone. 00:04:34.959 --> 00:04:36.319 Great, and we're pumped. 00:04:36.480 --> 00:04:40.240 Our goal here is to bring you the week of news of what's been hitting the market. 00:04:40.319 --> 00:04:41.040 What are we buying? 00:04:41.199 --> 00:04:42.000 What are we not buying? 00:04:42.160 --> 00:04:44.639 And today was a great week to start this off. 00:04:44.800 --> 00:04:49.040 We're gonna be talking about Nintendo and Sony and Wolverine and Netflix. 00:04:49.120 --> 00:04:52.560 Uh, a familiar name can get our attention, but what earns that attention back? 00:04:52.720 --> 00:04:55.120 And we're gonna start off today by going to you, Colin. 00:04:55.279 --> 00:04:58.879 We're gonna start in the store aisle, specifically like a target. 00:04:59.040 --> 00:05:00.879 What is Nintendo getting right? 00:05:01.360 --> 00:05:08.959 I I mean, I guess of the last bastion of physical media in the gaming industry is kind of what I wrote about it today, and my piece just went out sometime this morning. 00:05:09.120 --> 00:05:15.360 Um, so we watched the Zelda Direct, and my big takeaway was you know, Zelda looks great, whatever. 00:05:15.439 --> 00:05:16.639 I was expected to look great. 00:05:16.720 --> 00:05:20.800 You know, I always expected it to be in the game of the year nomination conversation. 00:05:20.959 --> 00:05:23.360 I expected it to be pitted against Grand Theft Auto. 00:05:23.600 --> 00:05:26.399 So all the things I already thought was gonna happen are basically happening. 00:05:26.480 --> 00:05:34.319 The thing I didn't expect was that Nintendo was gonna put on a foil limited edition run uh box and disc or you know with cartridge. 00:05:34.399 --> 00:05:35.680 And I was like, wait, what? 00:05:36.000 --> 00:05:44.160 And it's clear that they're like zagging what industry is zigging, like Sony and Xbox in their own ways, uh basically signal that they're going digital. 00:05:44.399 --> 00:05:52.399 Like Sony explicitly put a press or a blog post out saying as much, and then kind of keeps walking on ranks between now and

or between then and now. 00:05:52.560 --> 00:05:57.199 Um the earnings call is fascinating, the words they use about talking about the digital migration. 00:05:57.279 --> 00:06:03.680 It's very like cold and calculated, and like, well, this is where the place is going, which is true, but whatever. 00:06:03.839 --> 00:06:07.759 And then Xbox kind of saying, Oh, you could bring your discs and digitize them. 00:06:07.920 --> 00:06:10.160 It's like, well, why would I do that, Xbox? 00:06:10.240 --> 00:06:19.600 I mean, great things for why that to happen, but are you just signaling a fact that ownership is gonna be digital only in the future, which is kind of what everyone's saying, and I generally agree with that like presumption. 00:06:19.839 --> 00:06:28.639 Then you have Nintendo is like, great, we'll take your shelf space, like, and not only that, we will lean more into means in which you can kind of like interact with consumers. 00:06:28.800 --> 00:06:30.480 So that that's honestly what's top of mind. 00:06:30.560 --> 00:06:34.319 And I I did this exercise in my piece this week, where it's like I kind of go by two things. 00:06:34.399 --> 00:06:43.199 I go by the Nintendo Sicophants, so Amir is the probably the king of the Sicophans on on LinkedIn, anyways, and you just do the card math. 00:06:43.279 --> 00:06:48.160 And like, if you're selling a person a game, you're selling them a$70 item or digital download. 00:06:48.319 --> 00:06:51.600 If you're selling them a brand, you're selling them like$1,400. 00:06:51.839 --> 00:07:01.600 And now sure that the rest of that is split up with your partners, like you know, your Petridge Farm chips are not gonna you're not yielding 100% of that revenue, and Target's taking their part of that too. 00:07:01.680 --> 00:07:05.279 But like Nintendo's selling a brand and they're monetizing UPS for that's why. 00:07:10.079 --> 00:07:12.800 So Zelda comes out in in November, right? 00:07:12.959 --> 00:07:14.240 November 2026. 00:07:14.720 --> 00:07:15.120 Right? 00:07:15.360 --> 00:07:16.399 That's that's correct. 00:07:16.560 --> 00:07:21.920 The the the Legend of Zelda movie has a release date, I believe, of April 30th, 2027. 00:07:22.000 --> 00:07:23.040 So that's six months. 00:07:23.199 --> 00:07:30.879 Um, you know, the way that Greg characterized and phrased the question was sort of looking at the aisle at Target or Walmart or you know, collectible stores and so forth. 00:07:31.040 --> 00:07:40.800 I could easily imagine a scenario where there is a strong Zelda presence for six consecutive months and beyond, you know, because we're gonna have at least three pretty seismic, I think, um, things that happen. 00:07:40.959 --> 00:07:45.120 The release of the game, which I think is gonna do pretty well over the holiday period, extremely well. 00:07:45.360 --> 00:07:49.279 The release of the movie in theatrical, which I think is gonna be is gonna surprise people. 00:07:49.360 --> 00:07:50.399 I think it's gonna be massive. 00:07:50.560 --> 00:07:54.720 And then you've got the streaming release, which presumably with being a Sony movie, goes to Netflix, right? 00:07:54.800 --> 00:07:56.079 That's another sort of sort of thing. 00:07:56.240 --> 00:08:02.800 And all of those things I think will amplify all the things that you're talking about in terms of the physical sales and the merchandising, all the things around it. 00:08:03.040 --> 00:08:10.879 Um and you know, to compare and contrast with with Sony, you know, when was the last time that there was a you know sort of a Sony IP? 00:08:10.959 --> 00:08:17.040 With that, I guess we'll see when the God of War series hits whether they can sort of do this, but they do seem to be migrating away from physical. 00:08:17.360 --> 00:08:19.120 And on a balance sheet, it makes sense. 00:08:19.199 --> 00:08:20.319 Like that's like my point. 00:08:20.399 --> 00:08:21.680 It's like I get it, right? 00:08:21.920 --> 00:08:23.199 More margin to you. 00:08:23.360 --> 00:08:31.120 You think the TAM of your ecosystem's uh fully captured, so literally you're going to pull more margin out of your core users. 00:08:31.439 --> 00:08:31.759 Okay. 00:08:32.240 --> 00:08:39.679 And I think Nintendo just kind of feels differently about that uh hypothesis, and they just see places to grow, and it's just not anchored in the games, right? 00:08:39.759 --> 00:08:50.639 So Nintendo is going outwards and saying, great, we'll find more touch points to reach our consumers with our brands, whereas the rest of the gaming industry, like specifically Sony and Xbox, seem to be going more inward, right? 00:08:50.799 --> 00:08:54.080 Um, now again, to your point, we'll see what God of War and what they do with that. 00:08:54.240 --> 00:08:57.279 But I just think Nintendo is just playing a whole different game. 00:08:57.360 --> 00:09:00.559 And what's the what's the kind of value that long term? 00:09:00.720 --> 00:09:03.440 Uh, I think you become a multi-generational brand. 00:09:03.600 --> 00:09:09.039 Like you now pass on your love of Zelda to the next generation, the next generation, the next generation. 00:09:09.120 --> 00:09:09.440 That's it. 00:09:09.600 --> 00:09:18.159 You can't underestimate that, but the kids seeing something in in the store, uh and and uh and and that's where I think there's a huge opportunity for growth for Zelda. 00:09:18.240 --> 00:09:23.679 Obviously, it's gonna be a moment for you know for people who are 35 to 50, right? 00:09:23.840 --> 00:09:26.639 Who played that game NES or on Super Nintendo? 00:09:26.720 --> 00:09:32.159 Um, but I think there's a lot of growth potential for for kids, and I think the movie is also going to be big. 00:09:32.320 --> 00:09:40.879 Um, whether based on data or or gut, how many, let's say over 12 months, how many copies do we think that the uh Ocarina of Time remaster sells? 00:09:41.039 --> 00:09:44.960 And bonus question what proportion do we think are physical versus digital?

00:09:45.039 --> 00:09:45.759 I'm just curious. 00:09:46.000 --> 00:09:51.440 It's got it has to clear like Tears of the Kingdom and Breath of the Wild, right? 00:09:51.519 --> 00:09:53.279 Like it has to clear those numbers. 00:09:53.519 --> 00:09:54.159 No way. 00:09:54.799 --> 00:09:56.080 Because of install base, Greg? 00:09:56.480 --> 00:09:58.240 Install base is the challenge there. 00:09:58.320 --> 00:10:03.600 You're running into uh install base of let's be kind, fast forward Nintendo, Zix are gonna call. 00:10:03.679 --> 00:10:09.279 They probably say there's about 22 to 25 million Switch twos out in the ether. 00:10:09.519 --> 00:10:11.360 So that's your entire market, right there. 00:10:11.679 --> 00:10:21.120 And the best case scenario was the Mario Kart game that had like an insane tatch rate for going out with it, and that's at like 17 million or something like that, uh, units moved. 00:10:21.200 --> 00:10:24.720 Um, so I guess the game no one really talks about, but does really well. 00:10:24.879 --> 00:10:26.240 So, what's Zelda do? 00:10:26.559 --> 00:10:33.519 Um, I would definitely feel strongly that it's going to do anywhere from seven to ten million units in its first 12 months. 00:10:33.600 --> 00:10:37.519 That and then will it hit Tears of the Kingdom numbers over time? 00:10:37.759 --> 00:10:42.720 Yes, that's just as the console ecosystem grows, so does Zelda, right? 00:10:42.799 --> 00:10:45.440 So it will hit your Zelda numbers eventually. 00:10:45.679 --> 00:10:49.759 Do you do you so this is the wrinkle that gets thrown in here? 00:10:50.399 --> 00:10:52.480 This is a November release. 00:10:52.879 --> 00:10:59.279 You have an you have an install base on your premium consoles that's fairly saturated. 00:10:59.759 --> 00:11:04.879 Zelda is a potential system seller, if not like one of the best system sellers. 00:11:05.200 --> 00:11:11.679 Does that take away any consideration of anybody trying to buy a PlayStation for Grand Theft or an Xbox for Grand Theft Auto? 00:11:12.080 --> 00:11:20.639 And sitting there saying, Well, I could buy the family device for everybody, and then that that becomes a consideration near term. 00:11:22.480 --> 00:11:27.360 I think you're offering a really interesting off-ramp for those who can't find a PlayStation. 00:11:27.600 --> 00:11:28.960 I think that's more of the problem. 00:11:29.039 --> 00:11:44.159 I think everything's sold out, and you know, if you're if you're someone who is looking forward to playing Grand Theft Auto and you can't find a PS5 then or an Xbox, then you can just turn around and say, well, at least we can buy the Switch too if we don't already own it and play Zelda on it. 00:11:44.240 --> 00:11:46.000 Like it's a good you know, offset. 00:11:46.159 --> 00:11:56.879 But I I think more about Zelda in in Asia and like where Grand Theft Auto isn't as popular, like is this just gonna sell a lot of switches that aren't already sold across APAC, right? 00:11:56.960 --> 00:11:59.360 That's that's like more curious question to me, right? 00:11:59.519 --> 00:12:01.679 Because that's that's where it's running up in numbers. 00:12:01.840 --> 00:12:08.480 Like this jet, I think what goes underreported is how little Sony's like how much Sony is like giving up Japan, basically. 00:12:08.559 --> 00:12:12.960 Like, I know they have it, but like they Nintendo is the device of Japan, like by far. 00:12:13.039 --> 00:12:14.240 It's not even close, right? 00:12:14.480 --> 00:12:27.440 So I think it's just giving up more ground in APAC, Japan being kind of the leading indicator there, where Sony is kind of pulling back and becoming a primarily a Western-based system, as opposed to sharing that market with Nintendo and Xbox basically is what's well. 00:12:27.519 --> 00:12:40.240 I I think you guys have you've you've hit on the Nintendo's, I think, core business challenge, which is that the Switch and the Zoo have overlapped for quite a long period of time, and now it's at the point where it needs to try and transition people. 00:12:40.399 --> 00:12:52.559 I I do think this is probably the game to do it, and I also think that um the movie I think is is going to is gonna drive sales of both the console and and the game quite considerably. 00:12:52.639 --> 00:12:57.919 It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest to see a pretty major uptick around, you know. 00:12:58.080 --> 00:13:08.000 Look, April, May is not, you know, it's not obviously sort of holiday period, but there's going, I think there's gonna be a lot of of earned media around that. 00:13:08.240 --> 00:13:10.320 Obviously, questions about that movie, right? 00:13:10.399 --> 00:13:14.879 In terms of presumably Link will will be fully fleshed out with dialogue, right? 00:13:14.960 --> 00:13:18.399 Does it the thing about Zelda is it's taken so many forms, right? 00:13:18.799 --> 00:13:20.799 The art style, the the story. 00:13:20.960 --> 00:13:30.799 I think that what we've seen in the last week is that from a fan reaction standpoint, is people almost have their own ways that they've internalized and they relate to those those characters, right? 00:13:30.879 --> 00:13:35.200 And the thing about putting a live action movie is you're kind of put putting a definitive spin on it, right? 00:13:35.279 --> 00:13:40.159 So maybe not not everybody will like it, but I just think it's gonna be it's gonna be significant. 00:13:40.320 --> 00:13:47.120 It could turn out to be one of the the big emerging movie tentholes of our time, and then the sky becomes the the limit for game sales. 00:13:47.919 --> 00:13:49.360 Yeah, is it in the hero? 00:13:49.519 --> 00:13:51.679 Like he's the classic hero's journey, is Link, right? 00:13:51.759 --> 00:13:57.120 Like that's like he's boilerplate, every game he's in, he he goes on the hero's journey. 00:13:57.200 --> 00:14:02.159 Yeah, it's a very classic, it's not complicated by politics or anything else at all. 00:14:02.240 --> 00:14:14.080 It's

just literally Link, good guy, Zelda, heroine who can handle her own, but still is ultimately the person that gets captured, and getting your personification, again, a dwarf at your personification of a bad guy, right? 00:14:14.159 --> 00:14:16.000 Like very black and white storage, right? 00:14:16.240 --> 00:14:17.759 Wisdom, power, and courage. 00:14:17.919 --> 00:14:19.440 Come on, you know the tribe. 00:14:19.519 --> 00:14:20.240 We all know this. 00:14:20.480 --> 00:14:24.320 Well, and we're but we're and we're seeing that the market is responding to those things. 00:14:24.399 --> 00:14:31.519 And and the interesting thing is with Nintendo as a more than any other, I think, video game company, maybe a few exceptions, right? 00:14:31.600 --> 00:14:36.399 But Nintendo is in the top echelon in terms of control over the and almost to a fault, right? 00:14:36.480 --> 00:14:41.840 You can see this with them with the second Mario, you know, movie where it was almost played too safe, arguably. 00:14:42.000 --> 00:14:46.799 But I think that they are gonna have just their hands all over this. 00:14:46.879 --> 00:14:52.639 They're Nintendo will not allow this not to be something that they feel reflects the brand. 00:14:52.799 --> 00:14:56.000 Um, and I think that will be for the better of the movie, to be honest. 00:14:56.879 --> 00:14:58.159 And yeah, oh, jump in, Greg. 00:14:58.639 --> 00:15:04.240 Yeah, I want to talk about some of the audience because we have a lot of good conversations going on in the audience that I want to just bring up right now. 00:15:04.320 --> 00:15:07.120 So, Max is talking about uh nostalgia. 00:15:07.200 --> 00:15:13.120 He's talked about actually purchasing an Audi because he remembers when he was younger getting into his dad's Audi and getting that same smell. 00:15:13.200 --> 00:15:20.639 And I think that's interesting because you know, when you go from digital to physical, uh digital just doesn't have that same feeling, the same nostalgia. 00:15:20.720 --> 00:15:25.519 Uh, Carlo was saying he's already gonna buy a cartridge for his kid because he wants that same feeling that he had. 00:15:25.919 --> 00:15:27.279 Looking through the booklet, right? 00:15:27.360 --> 00:15:28.799 Which has like the extraction, right? 00:15:29.120 --> 00:15:32.000 That's why that's why I bought my first Britney Spears CD for the booklet. 00:15:32.080 --> 00:15:34.159 So you you're gonna miss that type of idea. 00:15:36.879 --> 00:15:38.799 These are the types of art that we're gonna start missing. 00:15:39.440 --> 00:15:42.559 He said fast, implying that there were there were many more to follow. 00:15:42.960 --> 00:15:43.360 Many more. 00:15:43.519 --> 00:15:44.399 The latest ones are great. 00:15:44.720 --> 00:15:46.080 Reading for the articles as always. 00:15:46.799 --> 00:15:53.840 Also, like as I'm talking through that idea, do you think Sony and Nintendo are kind of switching places in the type of crowd that they're trying to please? 00:15:53.919 --> 00:15:58.240 It seems like Sony's going very far digital, uh digital, which makes sense for what they're doing. 00:15:58.399 --> 00:16:02.960 And it seems like Nintendo, they know they're the nostalgic companies, so they're trying to run back. 00:16:03.039 --> 00:16:04.080 How do we get nostalgia? 00:16:04.240 --> 00:16:06.000 How do we get people doing that by being in target? 00:16:06.080 --> 00:16:08.000 Because that's where Mounts and Dads are bringing their kids. 00:16:08.240 --> 00:16:12.480 Greg, I'm gonna say something that I think uh, you know, whatever. 00:16:12.559 --> 00:16:16.879 It it maybe it's clippable or controversial or whatever else, and this is coming from somebody, you know. 00:16:16.960 --> 00:16:20.320 So just for the benefit of the audience, I mean Justin and I, you know, I see his trophy collection, right? 00:16:20.399 --> 00:16:23.919 We are we're pretty, you know, sort of stalwart, uh, you know, Sony, right? 00:16:24.000 --> 00:16:25.440 Many, many years so forth. 00:16:26.000 --> 00:16:29.519 Yeah, um, I don't know, I don't know who Sony is aiming at. 00:16:29.759 --> 00:16:31.360 I I I don't know right now. 00:16:31.519 --> 00:16:33.600 I don't know, and I don't think they know either. 00:16:34.399 --> 00:16:36.559 Hmm, interesting, interesting. 00:16:36.799 --> 00:16:39.679 I so let me jump on the nostalgia a bit first. 00:16:39.840 --> 00:16:41.679 Like Zelda's interesting to me. 00:16:41.840 --> 00:16:43.279 Uh, two things I posed questions. 00:16:43.519 --> 00:16:45.679 I I'll go through a story and then I'll pose a question. 00:16:45.840 --> 00:16:52.879 So my son is in baseball, he uh we do like a trainer thing once a week where he gets like work on a swing and whatnot. 00:16:52.960 --> 00:16:57.039 But he knows I work in the game industry and we always talk about Grand Theft Battle because he's so curious about GTA 6. 00:16:57.120 --> 00:17:02.320 So I came to practice this week and he literally goes, Yo, did you see did you see the Zelda thing? 00:17:02.480 --> 00:17:03.360 I'm like, Zelda? 00:17:03.440 --> 00:17:04.240 And he goes, Yeah, man. 00:17:04.319 --> 00:17:06.160 And they told me this is a fantastic score. 00:17:06.400 --> 00:17:12.160 He played it on, I think the first remake, I think was on the GameCube uh internet, correct me if I'm wrong, but the GameCube version of our created time. 00:17:12.400 --> 00:17:16.799 And he's telling me, like, he didn't have a booklet, him and his brother, they couldn't figure out how to get to the water temple. 00:17:16.960 --> 00:17:18.799 And I was like, Oh, the water temple. 00:17:19.039 --> 00:17:25.039 And he uh he was at a Costco and he was talking about it, and someone overheard this a decade ago, plus ago, obviously. 00:17:25.119 --> 00:17:29.279 And he overheard someone overheard him talking about it at Costco, came up to him, goes, You're talking about the water temple. 00:17:29.359 --> 00:17:32.480 Help these kids out by

scribbling on a napkin how to solve the water temple. 00:17:32.559 --> 00:17:33.440 They went back home. 00:17:33.599 --> 00:17:36.079 Like, that's a core memory for someone. 00:17:36.160 --> 00:17:42.240 Like, I'm like, wow, this dude's and he's like 100% goes, I don't own a switch too, but we're buying a switch too, so I can play this game. 00:17:42.319 --> 00:17:44.799 It's like, oh, so that's like the power of nostalgia, right? 00:17:44.880 --> 00:17:48.480 You have this like core memory that you're able to pull back all these years later. 00:17:48.559 --> 00:17:50.480 That's like, yes, this is the thing. 00:17:50.640 --> 00:17:56.000 And my second one to the non-gamer side is like if you were to pull, like you know, what's a show read, like or the family feud. 00:17:56.240 --> 00:17:59.680 If you family feud, what's the most likely gamer tattoo you'll find on anyone? 00:17:59.759 --> 00:18:01.200 I'm gonna go 100% on Triforce. 00:18:01.279 --> 00:18:03.839 It'd be my first answer if I was a family, uh Triforce tattoo. 00:18:04.160 --> 00:18:08.079 Um, you'll scale everybody, to be quite honest. 00:18:08.319 --> 00:18:21.920 Yeah, I mean, and and I I'll just add sort of from my professional um experience, and a lot of this is so the public is we're definitely in a in a nostalgia era, and I think nostalgia sort of shifted now to sort of late 80s to to 90s, right? 00:18:22.000 --> 00:18:33.279 I mean, just in the last you know, uh year or two, we've had um, you know, I don't know, the Care Bears movie announced obviously Masters of the Universe, which was only a moderate, but probably a failure theatrically. 00:18:33.440 --> 00:18:36.799 Um and I'm involved in in several um of those. 00:18:36.960 --> 00:18:56.240 I don't think they'll all they'll all hit, but I think where where where the real business strength is, is when you what you have with particularly the first Super Mario movie, which is that that you said that generational brand piece, when the parents want to see it, but they also want to share it with their with their kids, and that is you know that in theory is going to also drive a lot of sales. 00:18:56.319 --> 00:19:01.359 Whereas, you know, I think there is a a nostalgia component with GTA, for sure, for sure. 00:19:01.599 --> 00:19:07.119 But um, but maybe not in the multi-generational sort of um capacity that Zelda will be. 00:19:07.279 --> 00:19:08.960 Um covers. 00:19:09.359 --> 00:19:11.039 And I have to say one more thing before you jump on Zelda. 00:19:11.200 --> 00:19:17.279 So I just want to say one more thing, but like I I do want to say, like, something to Nintendo's uh great applaud, in my opinion. 00:19:17.359 --> 00:19:24.079 Like the person that made Zelda still is working on Zelda, like be clear, like their team is the same team that's always been working on it. 00:19:24.240 --> 00:19:28.079 Where else in the industry could you point to that and say this IP is maybe Capcom? 00:19:28.240 --> 00:19:29.759 I I think

for Street Fighter, right? 00:19:29.920 --> 00:19:32.799 There are some people there, but but but not not not frequent. 00:19:32.880 --> 00:19:35.440 I mean, it's not not the case in most of these places. 00:19:35.680 --> 00:19:53.599 Well, D I mean at this point, Nintendo has to be sitting there laughing at everybody else, saying, Listen, we understand how to capture a mass audience, and you don't have the IP to be able to scale downwards or younger, right? 00:19:53.759 --> 00:20:03.200 You're trying, Astrobot is a is a try, but Astrobot really kind of speaks to like Simon, like guys like us, where it's like, oh, you know, remember Ape Escape? 00:20:03.279 --> 00:20:05.759 Wow, that game was so great, you know, like should make another one of those. 00:20:05.839 --> 00:20:09.039 Like, my kids are never gonna know what Ape Escape is, they don't care about it. 00:20:09.440 --> 00:20:15.119 And how many sort of mascot type characters that Sony had historically instead of the PS2, PS3 era has it abandoned? 00:20:15.279 --> 00:20:20.559 Yeah, you talk about Sly all the time, and yeah, Ratchet the Russian climate again, but um Jack and Jack. 00:20:21.759 --> 00:20:23.920 Yeah, Sly Cooper, right? 00:20:24.799 --> 00:20:40.160 I mean, it just it's it it's it's it's incredible to see what Nintendo is basically able to do because of muscle memory and its organization, because of like and going to like what I think Sony is trying to do, which is the we I've talked about this before with Greg. 00:20:40.480 --> 00:20:41.839 It's a barbell economy, right? 00:20:41.920 --> 00:20:52.720 And the barbell is like you're the platform, you're an aggregator, you're able to tax everything into infinity, which is like what Steam is trying to do, what Sony's trying to do with this device, what Xbox is trying to do, right? 00:20:52.799 --> 00:21:01.359 So you have the aggregator side, which is you have you you want some content there to draw people in, but your business is really to be a tax system for other everybody else, right? 00:21:01.440 --> 00:21:06.000 And we can fight over the margins of what that should be, but that's essentially like what the iOS store is, right? 00:21:06.160 --> 00:21:09.200 On the other side, you have IP, like IP is the defense against stuff. 00:21:09.359 --> 00:21:15.039 Your IP is so unique, so safe to you that it's so valuable that people will go wherever your IP is, right? 00:21:15.359 --> 00:21:21.440 That's Nintendo is like the one that's over there, like and they happen to own a device too, but like their business is IP, right? 00:21:21.519 --> 00:21:28.079 They're IP, they like you to buy the device, but again, it's seemingly more Japanese than anything, like they'll meet you where you are. 00:21:28.319 --> 00:21:32.559 If you if you want to watch Pokemon as an animated series of click cards and never play a video game, fine. 00:21:32.720 --> 00:21:36.480 We'll we'll work with our you know third ordership in the Pokemon company to make sure that's reality. 00:21:36.640 --> 00:21:38.319 If you want to watch a Mario movie, great. 00:21:38.400 --> 00:21:42.079 We hope you buy a game at some point, but we could sell you toys and plushes too, right? 00:21:42.319 --> 00:21:45.920 So they'll find you where you are and meet you where you are, which is IP based. 00:21:46.000 --> 00:21:49.279 And then everybody else over here is like seemingly trying to become an aggregator. 00:21:49.680 --> 00:21:52.559 Like one last take, because we have four minutes left on this topic. 00:21:52.640 --> 00:21:56.799 And does Sony get squeezed into the middle of the barbell, which is Colin was talking? 00:21:56.880 --> 00:21:59.599 I want each one of your takes on it, and then we'll move on to that second. 00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:00.319 Topic. 00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:02.720 Colin, you look like you got a thought on your mind. 00:22:03.119 --> 00:22:05.200 Yeah, I think it depends on how things shake. 00:22:05.279 --> 00:22:05.920 I don't have an answer there. 00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:12.000 It depends how things shake out with Xbox and Steam and its growth in China over the next like I'll say three to five years. 00:22:12.079 --> 00:22:19.119 But I think it's gonna be a fascinating to watch because I just don't see how you can like permanently have three storefronts exist. 00:22:19.200 --> 00:22:21.839 I just don't think that's a reality given the price of hardware. 00:22:22.000 --> 00:22:24.160 So someone is going to lose. 00:22:24.319 --> 00:22:27.599 Is it Xbox leaving the Microsoft leaving gaming altogether? 00:22:27.839 --> 00:22:30.720 Is it is Valve gonna continue to grow at his pace? 00:22:30.799 --> 00:22:34.559 And then what does Sony do to kind of sh make sure it's not kind of left out to dry? 00:22:34.640 --> 00:22:38.400 I think you're just watching what's gonna happen there, but at the end of the day, Nintendo doesn't care. 00:22:38.480 --> 00:22:47.279 Like that's my take of like they're over here, they have their own business, and no matter what happens over here, I'm very bullish on Nintendo because they're gonna continue to do what they do, they're a healthy business. 00:22:47.680 --> 00:22:54.720 Simon, our pre-call, you actually spoke about Nike a little bit, and the connection wasn't made here, but I think it was a similar concept. 00:22:54.799 --> 00:22:57.759 But I'd love to hear your your thoughts on this so when you get squeezed into the middle. 00:22:58.000 --> 00:23:08.160 Yeah, I mean the Nike analogy, just for the you know, for those on who are unfamiliar, um the stock price has taken a dive, and um there are several sort of theories around it. 00:23:08.240 --> 00:23:20.480 But one is um you know that the Nike tried to push into um you know into digital and that loses you a couple of things, it loses your certain class of consumer who want to buy physical and slash or pay pay cash. 00:23:20.559 --> 00:23:24.640 Um, and number two, obviously you lose the storefront presence,

or maybe it's diminished, right? 00:23:24.720 --> 00:23:30.480 Because your you know retailers know that you're trying to push your your direct channel, which obviously will be the case with games, right? 00:23:30.799 --> 00:23:36.559 But why would you why would you promote something where ultimately you know your sort of partner is trying to go direct to to consumer? 00:23:36.640 --> 00:23:39.599 But my feeling about about Sony is it's just fascinating. 00:23:39.839 --> 00:23:49.279 Um, I think that Microsoft, Xbox over the last five to ten years has just been a litinary of errors and and swings back and forth and so on. 00:23:49.440 --> 00:23:56.720 But ultimately, if you look at the past you know, three to six months um from a PR perspective, you could make an argument that Sony's been worse. 00:23:56.880 --> 00:24:08.960 I mean, they've just had negative story after negative story, and sometimes you have to make decisions that are going to be commercially valuable in the long term, but perhaps unpopular in the short term. 00:24:09.039 --> 00:24:11.440 And I think that's what they think they're they're doing. 00:24:11.599 --> 00:24:15.680 But their their stock is so poor with gamers at the moment. 00:24:15.839 --> 00:24:20.720 All of the live service failures are quite frankly staggering. 00:24:21.039 --> 00:24:26.720 And you know, and they are, I mean, obviously, there was a news that came through this this week about Kojima. 00:24:26.799 --> 00:24:31.759 You know, the new Kojima game is is now, you know, was sort of they pulled the plug and it's going to Xbox. 00:24:31.920 --> 00:24:38.480 And I saw one tweet that was like, yeah, Sony had to cancel this because they were dangerously close to having a game and they couldn't accept that. 00:24:38.720 --> 00:24:40.400 Um, you know, and that's the thing. 00:24:40.559 --> 00:24:45.119 If you think back to like you know, the PS2, PS3 era, so many exclusive games, something for everybody. 00:24:45.359 --> 00:24:55.359 And um, they've really, because they've allocated so many resources to these uh live service games that have either been cancelled or failed, they they just don't have that, and then that's sort of driving people towards PC. 00:24:55.519 --> 00:24:56.240 I don't know. 00:24:56.400 --> 00:25:01.759 I mean, I am a pretty, you know, I'm probably one of Sony's bigger consumers, I would guess, you know. 00:25:01.920 --> 00:25:07.519 Um and and and yet I you know I don't know, and that will lead us to the to the Wolverine piece a little bit. 00:25:08.240 --> 00:25:10.240 Justin, wrap it up here. 00:25:10.559 --> 00:25:11.680 Really quick. 00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:14.160 Seems like Tail is wagging dog. 00:25:14.960 --> 00:25:30.720 Yeah, yeah, and listen to what you know, you really should listen to what your consumers are saying, and they'll certainly know better on what games to push and advance and really to get out into the ecosystem. 00:25:30.960 --> 00:25:46.960 But this seems like some

pretty interesting, curious management decisions that ultimately just aren't resonating, and like to what was said before, maybe they have a plan in place, maybe this is growing pains, etc. 00:25:47.440 --> 00:25:59.599 But it's not exactly a a favorable look right now, especially after like to Simon's point, especially after like Xbox made mistake after mistake, it's almost like Sony's like, well, now it's our turn. 00:25:59.839 --> 00:26:02.880 But yeah, and I'll just put a ball on my thing. 00:26:02.960 --> 00:26:11.680 I think Sony's risk, if I were to like summarize it, is they risk not being a brand people have an emotion about they risk of just becoming a machine. 00:26:11.839 --> 00:26:15.519 If they're a machine, then that's a that's a tough spot to be. 00:26:15.759 --> 00:26:17.359 Whereas Nintendo is a brand. 00:26:17.519 --> 00:26:20.880 Nintendo has a relationship, people have a thinking about Nintendo. 00:26:20.960 --> 00:26:27.119 And if Sony just becomes another skew that they look at the like they look at the specs and say, is this better than my PC? 00:26:27.359 --> 00:26:29.440 Then they are in big trouble. 00:26:30.400 --> 00:26:30.880 Cool. 00:26:31.039 --> 00:26:36.880 Let's move to our second beat of the day, which has to do with Wolverine. 00:26:36.960 --> 00:26:41.200 This has been probably the number one topic over the past week and change in our chat. 00:26:41.359 --> 00:26:45.119 We've had myself guessing about a 78 when it came to the Metacritic score. 00:26:45.200 --> 00:26:48.960 Simon guessed between an 84 and 86, Justin guessed an 85. 00:26:49.279 --> 00:26:54.880 There's been a lot of hype from certain people on this, and I'll let them speak to it themselves about Wolverine, and it hit this week. 00:26:55.039 --> 00:26:57.680 And Justin, I know you've been eager to talk about this. 00:26:57.920 --> 00:27:00.799 Let me know your what your first initial thoughts on Wolverine are. 00:27:01.039 --> 00:27:04.640 I've a lot of friends who are gamers, right? 00:27:04.799 --> 00:27:12.240 People that I speak to regularly, where the sentiment was, well, I guess I'm waiting for a sale. 00:27:12.799 --> 00:27:16.400 Um, it's I'm very upset. 00:27:16.640 --> 00:27:19.440 I don't get me wrong, I will play this. 00:27:19.680 --> 00:27:23.200 There's a platinum trophy at the end of it that I will most likely get. 00:27:23.359 --> 00:27:30.720 Um, and I will begrudgingly, I think Colin was what you said was despite all odds, I will finish this game. 00:27:30.960 --> 00:27:33.680 Um I just don't understand what happened. 00:27:33.839 --> 00:27:46.799 How do you let this be such a like slog of accessibility and like the reviews coming out basically saying patronizing, patronizing to the player? 00:27:47.359 --> 00:27:56.079 I'm I'm this is the same, these are the same people that made Spider-Man and the other, you know, accompanying games. 00:27:56.319 --> 00:27:57.839 I don't know how you let this happen. 00:27:58.319 --> 00:27:59.680 Don't do the X Men like that. 00:27:59.759 --> 00:28:00.880 Don't start it off like that. 00:28:01.119 --> 00:28:01.759 I'm sorry. 00:28:01.920 --> 00:28:03.359 I'm I'm just sad. 00:28:03.519 --> 00:28:06.720 Uh like Justin, I'm going to I don't plan on this game. 00:28:06.799 --> 00:28:08.240 I said before the show started. 00:28:08.400 --> 00:28:16.000 I'm going to grind through the story as fast as I possibly can to get my level down, and then I will put it away in the digital. 00:28:16.079 --> 00:28:17.680 I will not buy a physical version of this game. 00:28:17.759 --> 00:28:19.440 More box would be known on it. 00:28:19.599 --> 00:28:25.279 This is a download, play, delete off my drive to make space for GTA 6 uh game. 00:28:25.440 --> 00:28:27.920 So um, that's where my overing journey is gonna go. 00:28:28.079 --> 00:28:28.720 So I'm sad. 00:28:28.799 --> 00:28:29.200 I'm sad. 00:28:29.279 --> 00:28:34.559 I look, it I just played Lego Lego Batman with my son over the summer. 00:28:34.720 --> 00:28:37.519 I watched him play, I co-op played with him, and you know what? 00:28:37.599 --> 00:28:43.039 Lego Batman didn't have a blue line telling me where to go, telling him where to go to solve Lego puzzles. 00:28:43.119 --> 00:28:50.000 They didn't offer anything, they just had him grind through pretty simple puzzles, but he still had to do it, and there was no hints. 00:28:50.079 --> 00:28:51.279 This is Lego Batman. 00:28:51.440 --> 00:28:54.240 Like, this is a game made for kids. 00:28:54.720 --> 00:29:04.720 Why and yet well it's and yet not made for kids because it's because obviously, you know, a child you know could theoretically couldn't couldn't walk into a store and and and buy it. 00:29:04.799 --> 00:29:16.480 I think it's you know rated mature, and yet, yes, um ultimately it's a game, I think, for for nobody, or at least without a clear view of who it's of who it's it's it's for. 00:29:16.559 --> 00:29:21.839 And just for the background for the you know, we have a lot of back and forth over Marvel. 00:29:21.920 --> 00:29:26.480 Um, you know, just because I've I suffer from a bit of Marvel fatigue, to be honest. 00:29:26.559 --> 00:29:35.599 I will go, I'll go see the new Avengers uh movie, but I just have sort of become burned out after being, you know, a real a fan for most of my of my life. 00:29:35.759 --> 00:29:46.319 Um I you know where I differ is that I didn't think Spider-Man 2 was a particularly good game, although it was a retread of of the other ones, and I and I platinum them all, just to be clear. 00:29:46.559 --> 00:29:54.559 Um and therefore I'm sort of an outlier here, insofar as I was never interested in this in this game, really, from from day from day one. 00:29:54.640 --> 00:30:03.519 But with that said, I want to be clear, I don't sort of feel any Schadenfreuder from these reviews, and and I still think it'll it'll sort of sell uh you know sort of solidly. 00:30:03.599 --> 00:30:08.240 But this is,

make no mistake, this is the logical, you ask how this could happen. 00:30:08.400 --> 00:30:25.359 This is the logical endpoint and continuation of a culture that has been created in AAA game studios, where games must be for everybody, where the priorities are accessibility and inclusion, and therefore it, you know, you and you can even see this. 00:30:25.440 --> 00:30:28.240 I mean, Justin, you know, you chase platinums, right? 00:30:28.640 --> 00:30:37.039 Compare, I'd say, the start to mid-level, mid-mid of the PlayStation 4 generation with the PlayStation 5 generation when it comes to first party games. 00:30:37.200 --> 00:30:42.000 There is clearly a mandate that anybody should be able to platinum again, you know. 00:30:42.079 --> 00:30:49.680 So you can now go into Ghost of Sushima, you can go into um Last of Us, you can play it on basically the play itself mode, right? 00:30:49.839 --> 00:30:51.279 Where it's very, very easy. 00:30:51.440 --> 00:30:52.640 It may take you some time, right? 00:30:52.720 --> 00:30:55.759 It's a lot of check box checking in Sushima, but you can do it. 00:30:55.920 --> 00:31:02.880 Whereas, you know, you certainly couldn't do that with with with most games on on you know on even the original Last of Us remastered on PlayStation 4. 00:31:02.960 --> 00:31:09.279 And so there's a mandate, Microsoft has the same mandate, but this is taking it to its logical continuation. 00:31:09.440 --> 00:31:18.960 And I think you know, what most people have seen and seems to have gone extraordinarily viral in the past two days, is the skill up review, where he talks through some of these things. 00:31:19.119 --> 00:31:21.279 These are features that are on by default. 00:31:21.440 --> 00:31:31.680 When you are looking for a quote, optional collectible treasure, there is a line that leads you there, and then there is a big radar that sort of comes out from it and shows. 00:31:31.759 --> 00:31:33.279 So these things aren't hidden at all. 00:31:33.359 --> 00:31:38.400 So for those of us who grew up playing games, and it's like, oh, I wonder if I went that way, I wonder what's behind that waterfall. 00:31:38.559 --> 00:31:46.160 Oh, if I do this and that, I can get to the sea, gone, because it is just spoon feeding you even these optional, even these optional things. 00:31:46.319 --> 00:31:49.759 And um, you know, there are three schools of thought around this, right? 00:31:50.240 --> 00:31:56.240 There's one school of thought which is you know, you should have this stuff in the game by default so that anyone can play your game. 00:31:56.319 --> 00:32:03.279 Um, and that includes, you know, somebody who is, let's say, 70 years old, they've never picked up a controller before, right? 00:32:03.599 --> 00:32:10.079 Um then there's the middle ground there's the middle ground, which is this should be optional, right? 00:32:10.160 --> 00:32:12.480 And that's been a lot of the discourse over the last 24 hours. 00:32:12.640 --> 00:32:14.480

Well, you should be able to turn it off or turn it on. 00:32:14.720 --> 00:32:16.559 I understand this is all on by by default. 00:32:16.720 --> 00:32:21.039 I would be surprised if they implement a patch now that enables you to turn it off. 00:32:21.119 --> 00:32:23.279 It seems like a very thing for them to do. 00:32:23.440 --> 00:32:29.119 Then there's my viewpoint, which is that this should not be in any game, or at least should not be in, you have to know your audience. 00:32:29.359 --> 00:32:31.200 I do not want that in any game. 00:32:31.359 --> 00:32:34.079 I do not want that even as an optional feature. 00:32:34.240 --> 00:32:41.680 That completely detracts where I get my joy in playing games, which is in discovery and mastery, those twin concepts, right? 00:32:41.920 --> 00:32:45.680 Spending time finding things, finding that that sort of that sort of secret. 00:32:45.759 --> 00:32:51.759 I remember going back, you know, the all of the whatever you had to get the all of the collectibles in Donkey Kong country, for example, you know. 00:32:51.920 --> 00:33:01.440 Um, and that piece, and that also builds culture because where it used to be sort of that water cooler creep that you're you were describing earlier, you know, you go into the store and the and the clerk tells you this thing. 00:33:01.519 --> 00:33:06.160 Um, or you know, I think about Mortal Kombat or you know, like the secret, where's you know, how do you just have reptile? 00:33:06.319 --> 00:33:07.599 But also, but now it's online, right? 00:33:07.680 --> 00:33:26.559 And if you look at like the FromSoft games, oh, you can find there's there's no there's not going to be any of this aware around Wolverine because it's there, it's there's no layers to it, and it has come out of a completely toxic and poisonous culture where it is it where it is clearly unacceptable for there to be any kind of failure state for any kind of of player. 00:33:26.720 --> 00:33:34.880 Um, and again, it's the point is if you were releasing this game as I don't know, a bluey game, right? 00:33:35.039 --> 00:33:41.359 Or something like that, that that is a game aimed at you're laughing, Justin, but aimed at you know, six to eight. 00:33:41.680 --> 00:33:43.039 So true, right? 00:33:43.440 --> 00:33:50.880 Then I would say that's a legitimate design choice, and that makes a lot of sense because you don't want a situation where the the parents are complaining because they the child can't do it. 00:33:50.960 --> 00:33:57.279 However, it's not congruent with uh ostensibly an adult focused brand. 00:33:57.359 --> 00:33:59.359 And I have other issues with the game, the character design. 00:34:00.319 --> 00:34:03.599 Let me jump in because I have two points, and this is exactly what I was going to Lego Batman. 00:34:03.680 --> 00:34:14.400 Like, that's game is designed for my child, and yet they didn't put like guardrails and a pacifier in his mouth and hold his hand to find every collectible because good game design shouldn't need that. 00:34:14.639 --> 00:34:18.400 No, and I agree, and that's like the blue fart is what they notice calling Wolverine's thing now. 00:34:18.480 --> 00:34:24.800 And I I I agree, I'm like, yeah, this is this totally takes me out of the game, having a line pointing me exactly where to go. 00:34:24.880 --> 00:34:26.000 Like, where's the discovery? 00:34:26.079 --> 00:34:26.880 Where's the challenge? 00:34:26.960 --> 00:34:32.239 And going back to Nintendo, everyone like applauds uh you know, Breath of the Wild. 00:34:32.320 --> 00:34:32.719 Why? 00:34:32.880 --> 00:34:38.719 Because it didn't tell you where to go, it just says, here you go, play the game however you want to. 00:34:38.800 --> 00:34:42.639 Do you want to fight go you know through the four dungeons and fight Ganon at the end? 00:34:42.800 --> 00:34:43.280 Do that. 00:34:43.519 --> 00:34:44.960 Do you want to fight Ganon now? 00:34:45.199 --> 00:34:45.679 Do that. 00:34:45.840 --> 00:34:47.760 Like it doesn't tell you anything, right? 00:34:48.239 --> 00:34:50.400 It gives you the basic mechanics and lets you go. 00:34:50.559 --> 00:34:52.320 Like and like baffling. 00:34:52.480 --> 00:34:53.599 Uh to be a fly on the wall. 00:34:53.679 --> 00:34:59.199 I'd just be so, you know, because at some point in time that feature was was was put in. 00:34:59.280 --> 00:35:05.199 And there's something, there's something look, again, comes out to the question, how does this this happen? 00:35:05.440 --> 00:35:14.079 There is something in the culture, in the way that the organization is structured that either enabled that to happen or in fact encouraged it. 00:35:14.239 --> 00:35:24.800 Um, and I think this could what very well be a watershed um for because it's gonna, you know, I don't think it's gonna be um apocalyptic, you know, and and and they can say they can patch things out and so on. 00:35:24.880 --> 00:35:31.280 I think this game's still gonna sell quite well, but it's it's it's a it's a moment in in game design. 00:35:31.360 --> 00:35:47.920 And also, frankly, you know, again, just to lend my professional sort of side of this, because you know, we have clients that are developing games, financing games, you know, or you know, developing movies based on games, it it the other component with this is time, it takes too long to develop games. 00:35:48.159 --> 00:35:51.920 A six to seven year development cycle or more is not feasible. 00:35:52.079 --> 00:35:58.960 One, financially, because it sets the financial bar too high in terms of copies, but also because the world changes. 00:35:59.199 --> 00:36:06.719 And I think if this game had come out, let's say two or three years after Spider-Man Spider-Man Mars Morales, let's say, right? 00:36:06.960 --> 00:36:12.159 Let's say they didn't do Spider-Man 2 or whatever, had come up close to that, I think we were more in that in that world. 00:36:12.320 --> 00:36:21.119 And I think maybe look, if you in 10 years from now,

when you look at video game history, maybe something like you talk about Breath of the Wild, I would say also Elden Ring. 00:36:21.280 --> 00:36:42.559 I think that that those things changed the culture a little bit and probably other examples um to where to where now you know those sort of design things, but there's also been this massive blowback on what was very, very popular at the time, which is this kind of you know ironic tongue-in-cheek Joss Whedon, millennial Marvel type type dial dialogue. 00:36:42.800 --> 00:36:51.920 And you know, a lot of games, you know, sort of wrote things in that way, and now there's been a complete 180 on that, and it's hard to sort of course course correct in it. 00:36:52.079 --> 00:37:02.480 So that's that's the other piece here, because um it makes it very, very hard to to target, to skate where the where the puck is going to quote, you know, when Gretz game here in Canada, right? 00:37:02.559 --> 00:37:05.360 And the the Canadian hockey museum is just down there. 00:37:05.679 --> 00:37:09.280 If it you know, if you've got that time period out, and we'll see how GTA does it. 00:37:09.360 --> 00:37:10.719 We'll see how GTA does. 00:37:11.119 --> 00:37:24.800 So I asked you this question a few weeks ago, Colin, while we were doing our live show on if if Wolverine doesn't hit the mark, we've seen a decrease in quality or review scores on Insomniac games since the original Spider-Man game came out. 00:37:25.039 --> 00:37:29.039 Is there a possibility that maybe they just kind of they peaked? 00:37:29.199 --> 00:37:36.159 And it's I asked you this question thinking did Sony just lose control of their studios and and things just kind of went off rail. 00:37:36.320 --> 00:37:39.440 Well, I uh yeah, so I think I'm of two minds. 00:37:39.519 --> 00:37:44.639 Like one, I to Simon's like earlier comment, I and I agree, like Wolverine will sell fine, right? 00:37:44.880 --> 00:37:47.519 It's on pace to sell fine, it'll still move units. 00:37:47.679 --> 00:37:51.599 Um, I don't think it's a financial disaster as some of the people think it's gonna be for Sony. 00:37:51.840 --> 00:38:02.079 Now, what I do think is gonna happen though is that everyone's given one strike, and I think this isn't on the X strike, and now they're gonna have a heck of a time selling people on the next game because they're gonna have to overcome all of this stuff. 00:38:02.400 --> 00:38:03.840 Have they announced what their next game is? 00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:05.840 Has there been any hints or any rumors to what that is? 00:38:06.079 --> 00:38:08.880 I mean, the the leaks have suggested what's to come. 00:38:09.280 --> 00:38:20.159 Yeah, oh Venom, yeah, Venom or an X-Men game, but like again, they're gonna have to tell people like, yeah, we we we were not doing this, we're doing that. 00:38:20.239 --> 00:38:22.639 And I think this is where they find themselves. 00:38:22.800 --> 00:38:40.159 And ultimately, if this does not hit any of Sony's internal benchmarks, I mean they can't believe critically as they they expected this kind of score coming out of Metacritic, even though I'm very much of a belief that Metacritic does not matter as much as people think it does, yada yada yada, there's an entire agenda ecosystem there. 00:38:40.400 --> 00:38:46.719 That all said, um it will probably have Sony looking at the other studio saying, What are you doing? 00:38:46.880 --> 00:38:48.880 Are we are we going to be over eight? 00:38:49.199 --> 00:38:57.039 There was this, if you're very online, there was this video that came out a year or two ago that was like the cinematic Super Mario thing, right? 00:38:57.119 --> 00:38:59.519 It's known as the Focus M video. 00:38:59.920 --> 00:39:01.119 Uh I don't know if you've seen this. 00:39:01.199 --> 00:39:05.199 It's it's I think it may be AI generated, it's certainly sort of narrated, right? 00:39:05.280 --> 00:39:11.840 But it's a super it's a 3D Super Mario Brothers, it's about two minutes long, and it but it has all the hallmarks of like a Sony cinematic game. 00:39:12.000 --> 00:39:19.039 And I think that has per that video has permeated the culture a little bit, where I see that cited quite a lot. 00:39:19.119 --> 00:39:27.599 And it's almost like pulling like the, you know, or exposing the Emperor's new clothes behind these things, um, you know, uh a little bit in terms of sort of the the impact. 00:39:27.679 --> 00:39:31.440 And now people are sort of pointing these these things out. 00:39:31.679 --> 00:39:37.119 The other side, the coin, though, I would say, is, you know, because the other thing, yeah, yellow paint, right, is the other debate about these things, right? 00:39:37.280 --> 00:39:41.199 Putting yellow paint on things you can destroy or ladders that you climb or whatever else. 00:39:41.440 --> 00:39:48.000 The challenge is that there's clearly a uh you know, quotient uh a portion of the gaming audience who needs those things, right? 00:39:48.079 --> 00:40:02.719 And that's why these things, I suppose, get into the the games, is because they've found through you know, through whatever data they have that some people just don't understand that you know the sort of the basic things, and so it it goes to the low the lowest common denominator. 00:40:02.960 --> 00:40:03.760 But I don't know. 00:40:03.840 --> 00:40:15.280 I think I think my view in general, as I think you guys know, is you've got to pick out a target audience, and um, and I think making things across any media, making something for everybody is harder and harder. 00:40:15.440 --> 00:40:33.280 And you know, you guys make fun of me, but I have my certain types of games that I like, and I find myself more and more you know playing just like you know, Souls likes, and it is quite sort of familiar, but maybe just iterates on that on that formula, and they're just you know less interest in the things that are sort of clearly very, very mass market for everybody. 00:40:34.800

--> 00:41:04.480 I'm just surprised Marvel like I don't know how much oversight they have on something like this, but if this comes out and it underperforms, you know, critically, but I don't think Justin they won't like look, they won't like the Metacritic score and they won't like that the sales, but I don't know if Marvel is the appropriate party to be because what Marvel is going to be concerned about the character appearances, the story, is it sort of on brand, you know, some guidelines? 00:41:04.880 --> 00:41:09.280 How does it mesh, presumably, with what they have planned for Wolverine in the future, right? 00:41:09.440 --> 00:41:16.559 It doesn't have to be one-to-one, but we know there's this synergistic impact between you know Spider-Man sold a lot more copies after this last Spider-Man movie came out, etc. 00:41:16.880 --> 00:41:18.480 They'll care about those things. 00:41:18.719 --> 00:41:29.760 And I don't think if you're a brand guidelines person, that the that that that that this thing we're talking about, the the whatever the gene gray fart line is going to be something that would jump out to you. 00:41:29.920 --> 00:41:41.920 It would only jump out to a gamer, and therefore would require you as a licensed saw to say to play it and say, this sucks, but but you know, but I don't think that that that is part of their mandate. 00:41:42.000 --> 00:41:45.039 Their mind at the is protecting the protecting the brand. 00:41:45.119 --> 00:41:49.760 And moreover, again, I think this might have been judged slightly differently. 00:41:49.920 --> 00:41:55.760 And and let's let's be clear this game, I think, got four ten outs, four or five ten out of tens, so you know, in terms of review. 00:41:55.840 --> 00:41:57.360 So some people did love this. 00:41:58.480 --> 00:42:03.280 Well, it's on the back of the story, I think, is people are divisive on the story, people like the story, they like the game. 00:42:03.440 --> 00:42:08.000 If they don't like the story, they and the gameplay doesn't really jump out at them, then they're not liking the game. 00:42:08.239 --> 00:42:09.840 Yeah, that's kind of how I'm seeing it, right? 00:42:09.920 --> 00:42:14.079 Yeah, um, I think Greg Miller from Kind of Funny put it best. 00:42:14.159 --> 00:42:25.760 He was like when he was doing the kind of funny spiel on it, he's like, I don't want to give this a mid-score, but I felt the story was mid, and because the story was mid and the gameplay didn't really jump out at me, then I'm gonna give it a mid-score, which is fair. 00:42:26.000 --> 00:42:28.559 Honestly, I have I I I applaud the journalists here. 00:42:28.639 --> 00:42:34.559 You know, I think it's it's very, it's quite, you know, it's quite sort of uh brave of them to be to be candid about it. 00:42:34.639 --> 00:42:39.599 And it's probably for the you know, for the good of of the game and for Insomniac um long long term. 00:42:39.760 --> 00:42:46.880 Now we do know that at one because of leaks at one

point in time there was good there were going to be Gene Gray sections in there, you know. 00:42:47.039 --> 00:42:58.000 Claude, you've said you've said in the chat that you think it maybe have scored better if it had those pieces, but but then we also know that the you know the Mary Jane sections in the Spider-Man games are some of them sort of the most divisive. 00:42:58.159 --> 00:43:03.840 So I I I just you know I again it just feels to me like it's trying to make concessions to too many people. 00:43:04.400 --> 00:43:06.880 Raise a hand in the group here that played Spider-Man 2. 00:43:06.960 --> 00:43:08.559 Who liked the MJ missions? 00:43:08.800 --> 00:43:10.079 Did you like them, Justin? 00:43:10.320 --> 00:43:11.599 I I played it. 00:43:12.559 --> 00:43:14.159 You said raise a hand if I played it, right? 00:43:14.239 --> 00:43:16.159 I played no, I played it, but did I like it? 00:43:16.239 --> 00:43:16.480 No. 00:43:16.559 --> 00:43:22.079 I mean, because it takes out of it when she turned spoiler alert, I liked when she turned into Scream. 00:43:22.400 --> 00:43:25.039 You didn't have to play for play as her to get to that moment. 00:43:25.119 --> 00:43:29.679 Like giving her a taser and shooting venoms really took you out of the experience of her to act. 00:43:30.239 --> 00:43:30.559 You know what? 00:43:30.800 --> 00:43:35.280 As a as a person with no powers, I really resonate with that, you know. 00:43:35.519 --> 00:43:37.519 Like giving you included. 00:43:37.920 --> 00:43:40.719 I I walk around my own neighborhood doing this too, you know. 00:43:40.800 --> 00:43:42.960 Like, all right, there's a deer, gotta get rid of it. 00:43:43.440 --> 00:43:44.320 Like, you know. 00:43:44.800 --> 00:43:48.639 Yeah, I uh I I I just think that they're really they're really struggling. 00:43:48.800 --> 00:43:55.840 They're obviously all of these companies, because it the games are getting so expensive, the threshold for for for success is high. 00:43:55.920 --> 00:43:58.320 There's so much competition, and they're being bombarded. 00:43:58.400 --> 00:43:59.760 We talk about this a little bit in terms of their. 00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:03.199 Various consultancies telling them what to do, what they have to do. 00:44:03.440 --> 00:44:04.880 Look, look at these people. 00:44:05.760 --> 00:44:10.639 Did you know that that you have 94% of the market that's that hasn't played your video game? 00:44:10.800 --> 00:44:11.280 Think about it. 00:44:11.360 --> 00:44:13.599 If all those people bought the games, what would happen? 00:44:13.760 --> 00:44:17.280 But then it's it's not it's typically not possible to do to do that. 00:44:17.599 --> 00:44:22.480 And all it does is alienate people who actually do buy and and play the buy and play the games. 00:44:22.639 --> 00:44:24.159 It's um yeah, I don't know. 00:44:24.239 --> 00:44:31.039 And and look, there's supposedly this trigger they have to get six million sales in the first year to you know to that's been

reported. 00:44:31.199 --> 00:44:31.679 I don't know. 00:44:31.760 --> 00:44:33.199 I I think it'll probably get there to be honest. 00:44:33.519 --> 00:44:36.079 Oh yeah, 100% compared to the brand recognition, you know. 00:44:36.639 --> 00:44:41.840 Remember, we're we're quite online, probably very on online, uh, on a daily basis. 00:44:42.159 --> 00:44:46.239 Ultimately, when this thing comes out, people will walk into the store and be like, Wolverine, boom. 00:44:46.480 --> 00:44:51.199 And frankly, for some people, you you know, you get to go and and and and beat up people as Wolverine. 00:44:51.280 --> 00:44:54.320 If that's the value proposition of the game, it probably delivers. 00:44:54.559 --> 00:45:02.400 Yeah, I look, and I just say like guard tracking, like I've said this repeatedly like it's doing better than Miles Morales in terms of our tracking. 00:45:02.480 --> 00:45:06.159 Miles Morales sold 12 million units, so Wolverine is going to sell six. 00:45:06.400 --> 00:45:09.440 So I'm not worried about any sort of like miss financially. 00:45:09.599 --> 00:45:11.599 I just go to the next game again. 00:45:11.760 --> 00:45:20.559 It's all about okay, you do if people buy it and their reaction is that's fine, then they're gonna have a harder time selling the next thing, whatever the next thing would be. 00:45:21.360 --> 00:45:24.639 So, like, is Insomniac in the penalty box then? 00:45:25.760 --> 00:45:30.800 I think the gamer culture they're gonna be if people get their hands on this game and they agree with the journalists. 00:45:30.880 --> 00:45:40.800 Now, this this might be like another thing, or like journalists get it and they're like, you know, I actually like the game more than the journalist said because I'd like to just ravage the game as Wolverine and it was exactly what you're doing. 00:45:41.199 --> 00:45:42.639 You can solve for the fart thing. 00:45:42.719 --> 00:45:49.760 All you have to do is put something before you get to or when you when you hit new game, it goes, do you want to turn on or off assistance? 00:45:49.920 --> 00:45:51.920 And if you turn it off, then it becomes another issue. 00:45:52.000 --> 00:45:53.360 These people never see that. 00:45:53.519 --> 00:46:00.639 Um, and and maybe then you know they and I can't speak to the to sort of the story, but but maybe people like it, like it well enough. 00:46:00.960 --> 00:46:01.599 Yeah. 00:46:02.000 --> 00:46:10.559 Um make a gambit game, bring in the guys from Sucker Punch, and make it like Sly Cooper, and I'll forgive you. 00:46:10.800 --> 00:46:12.480 All right, I I'm just story now. 00:46:12.559 --> 00:46:16.239 I'm gonna play it for the story, I'll reserve judgment on this game, it's all good to the story. 00:46:16.320 --> 00:46:17.599 It sits on the story. 00:46:17.840 --> 00:46:22.320 All right, we beat Wolverine to death along with the point. 00:46:24.400 --> 00:46:26.000 You have to take all his energy away. 00:46:26.159 --> 00:46:26.639 All right.

00:46:26.960 --> 00:46:31.519 Last beat we have for today is Netflix wanting to be a movie studio again. 00:46:31.599 --> 00:46:38.480 They are reportedly weighing theatrical distribution again, as well as reporting box office for the first time. 00:46:38.719 --> 00:46:42.880 Justin, can you explain to me why I should be caring about these things? 00:46:43.519 --> 00:46:52.880 Uh you've finally a peek behind the curtain in terms of data, which they are so um shy about sharing. 00:46:53.119 --> 00:47:21.360 But I I think it's I actually just had a forum on this yesterday, and the sentiment was overwhelmingly positive about uh them sharing back the box officer seats on the next upcoming six titles, I think they're they're planning on releasing, which just goes to show one of the big things that came out of it was just goes to show that there's a lot of good signal here that audience and attendance is strong. 00:47:21.519 --> 00:47:27.199 There's definitely a demand for these types of tentpole uh films that are out there. 00:47:27.440 --> 00:47:36.159 It's a good signal that the the ecosystem is healthier than maybe we had anticipated, and that there's some good value brewing here. 00:47:36.239 --> 00:47:43.199 Maybe think maybe people are undervaluing where uh the theatrical side of the business is. 00:47:43.440 --> 00:47:57.440 But ultimately, it came down to a lot of really good good commentary and maybe even more commitment from Netflix to do theatrical, like every, you know, like have this going into perpetuity. 00:47:57.679 --> 00:48:05.199 So it was it was good, it was good commentary, but the movie stuff we should probably leave to the movie guy. 00:48:05.440 --> 00:48:06.800 I'm gonna leave Simon, man. 00:48:06.880 --> 00:48:07.519 Let this man cook. 00:48:07.599 --> 00:48:08.800 I'm so curious. 00:48:09.119 --> 00:48:11.039 Yeah, well, look, it's it's it's really interesting. 00:48:11.119 --> 00:48:19.840 And and you know, uh one thing to note, I think, I think it's a fair statement about Netflix culture is um they never they never really tip their their hand, right? 00:48:19.920 --> 00:48:23.840 They always say they're not doing something and and then they just and then they just do it. 00:48:24.079 --> 00:48:33.199 Um I uh I yeah, I have a lot of of thoughts uh about this, and it has a lot of implications as as as as well. 00:48:33.679 --> 00:48:43.920 Um you know, I think that Netflix is in a place where it's struggling a little bit in terms of sort of franchises and and sort of the value proposition. 00:48:44.079 --> 00:48:54.000 I think the value proposition for Netflix in movies when it comes to sort of Friday night rom-coms, certainly the Christmas movies, you know, some certain things is very, very clear. 00:48:54.159 --> 00:48:58.639 But they've they've done things like um not Crimson Moon. 00:48:58.719 --> 00:49:00.320 What was the Zack Snyder one that they did? 00:49:00.480 --> 00:49:01.360 Rebel Moon, right? 00:49:01.440 --> 00:49:09.840 Rebel Moon, you know, and then also um the electric circus or something that you know, whether it was called yeah, those are both hugely expensive movies. 00:49:10.079 --> 00:49:14.559 Yeah, let's just say so uh you know, two 250 to 300 million dollar movies, right? 00:49:14.719 --> 00:49:19.599 And those are things that they would hope would be incredibly well viewed on the service, sticky on the service, right? 00:49:19.760 --> 00:49:23.679 Watch multiple times and hopefully would lead and enable them to do other things. 00:49:23.760 --> 00:49:25.440 So that's and it and it hasn't happened. 00:49:25.519 --> 00:49:26.880 So that that's sort of one piece to it. 00:49:27.039 --> 00:49:32.320 The other piece is as we all know around Netflix, is uh all of the streaming services have increased their prices. 00:49:32.639 --> 00:49:38.239 And at a certain point in time, you've got to look for where else you can generate revenue, right? 00:49:38.480 --> 00:49:44.719 And one of the things that they focus on is you know, they've got games, they've got um live experiential, they've got all these sort of different things. 00:49:44.880 --> 00:49:49.920 In order to do that, you need to have again, which of you said this? 00:49:50.159 --> 00:49:53.360 Brands, things people care about emotionally. 00:49:53.519 --> 00:49:57.599 And I would say at the present time, Netflix has precisely one thing, uh, strange things. 00:49:57.760 --> 00:50:06.400 Um, you know, there was a period of time, um, you know, uh Squid Game, you know, there have been some other things here and there, people like the uh the Haaland Coben, you know, things like that. 00:50:06.639 --> 00:50:12.079 My daughter would disagree with K-pop demon owners, but um Okay, no, K-pop, oh uh totally K-pop demon owners. 00:50:12.159 --> 00:50:12.400 I'm sorry. 00:50:12.480 --> 00:50:16.719 I K-pop demon hunters may be the number one now, but but but they haven't done that yet, right? 00:50:16.800 --> 00:50:18.400 They're going to you know expand it. 00:50:18.559 --> 00:50:24.480 But but you have that but you you know people have to care um uh you know about things, they've got to build brands. 00:50:24.559 --> 00:50:32.159 So so they've got things coming up, including uh Narnia, um, you know, uh you know, sort of coming coming up. 00:50:32.320 --> 00:50:36.079 And so that's sort of and then the third factor I think is just talent pressure. 00:50:36.239 --> 00:50:43.599 Um it's if you want to work with with high-level talent, I think that talent is sort of moved on from the period where they would just accept a big fat check. 00:50:43.679 --> 00:50:45.679 They want they want things released theatrically. 00:50:45.760 --> 00:50:50.880 And the reason for that is that movies, that that a streaming movie is not a real movie. 00:50:51.039 --> 00:51:10.719 Uh and and and that's you know, seems like a sort of a pejorative thing to say, but in in the consciousness of the viewer, the viewer view, you

know, the audience uh put puts things in a different box in their in their mind versus um, you know, so something that's a streaming movie, throw away, dispose, or maybe watch on a Friday night, don't care, versus something that you're gonna go out, you're gonna care about. 00:51:11.039 --> 00:51:20.400 And I and I do think that Netflix's hand was forced a little bit, both in terms of the business uh and sort of the audience, but and also particularly talent by Project Hail Mary. 00:51:20.559 --> 00:51:29.840 Project Hail Mary came out in the front of this year, very critically acclaimed, big star star actor, tons of people went to see it at theaters. 00:51:30.000 --> 00:51:32.559 That will that made a ton of money in theatrical. 00:51:32.719 --> 00:51:45.199 It will be make a huge amount of sort of you know, earn value value through being on the streaming service, probably some product sales uplift as well, uh, before that Formula One to a degree as well. 00:51:45.440 --> 00:51:49.679 And I think you know, it just Netflix is like, look, we've we've got to we've got to do this. 00:51:49.760 --> 00:52:04.159 But the consequence there then becomes make it makes a difference for talents because people like myself who have you know been involved in many, many negotiations with Netflix, and and frankly, some of the smartest and and you know my favorite people, you know, sort of work work there. 00:52:04.400 --> 00:52:13.599 And the number of times that I have asked for a commitment for something to be released theatrically, or we need to back in just in case you release theatrically, right? 00:52:13.679 --> 00:52:19.519 We need a piece of the sort of the profits, uh, and you get told no, no, no, we're never gonna do that, we're not gonna do that. 00:52:19.679 --> 00:52:22.639 Um, and now obviously this changes the the game. 00:52:22.800 --> 00:52:37.039 Um, I would be amazed if uh you know the people who are involved in those in those movies, and there's some big talent, right, and those involved in those six movies are not getting some kind of the you know the off-platform, whether it's box office bonuses or back end or or however it's characterized. 00:52:37.199 --> 00:52:38.719 Um so it's a shift. 00:52:38.960 --> 00:52:50.000 And the the other thing, which is you know, for all of you guys, you know, sort of interact is well, you can when you're only releasing streaming, you can you can publicize the hits. 00:52:50.159 --> 00:52:54.880 When K-pop Demon Hunters comes out, you can make a big stick, you know, you can oh, and that's what they do. 00:52:54.960 --> 00:53:07.920 Oh, it's the most viewed movie every but but if now you're releasing theatrically and reporting numbers, you get the other side of the coin, which is no, no, no, yeah, yeah, no studio in Hollywood history has a has a 100% hit record. 00:53:08.000 --> 00:53:10.960 It's not much to be 50%. 00:53:11.519 --> 00:53:18.320 So let me jump in because I have my just outside the Hollywood ecosystem perspective on Netflix. 00:53:18.480 --> 00:53:27.519 Um, Netflix feels like it's a midlife crisis company to me, like, and they're just grasping at anything to kind of for it to be discussed on this podcast, then. 00:53:28.239 --> 00:53:30.320 Um I mean, I know, right? 00:53:30.400 --> 00:53:34.079 It's like, hey, we can be gaming, and I know people disagree with me on this. 00:53:34.159 --> 00:53:36.239 I'm like, yeah, that's uh that's a that's a flop. 00:53:36.400 --> 00:53:39.840 Uh I mean I know the deconstructor fund people are on the same train as I'm on. 00:53:40.000 --> 00:53:44.159 Like, this is this is a disaster of a distraction, but maybe not that expensive of a distraction. 00:53:44.320 --> 00:53:46.159 But doing experiences, like to what end? 00:53:46.400 --> 00:53:49.920 What's a house about Stranger Things in Philadelphia gonna do for you, right? 00:53:50.000 --> 00:53:51.679 Like, what's the point, right? 00:53:51.840 --> 00:53:54.880 And honestly, I think the biggest challenge is I just don't know when stuff is on there. 00:53:54.960 --> 00:53:57.920 Like, and I am like Joe Schmoke consumer on that one. 00:53:58.000 --> 00:54:01.360 Like, I they don't market anything to me. 00:54:01.440 --> 00:54:06.400 I have no idea when things are there unless I literally open up the app and say what's on Netflix today. 00:54:06.559 --> 00:54:08.239 But I don't do that a lot, right? 00:54:08.400 --> 00:54:11.039 I have so many other options of eating my time. 00:54:11.119 --> 00:54:16.639 Now I still subscribe to Netflix, so they get the pound of plush from me, but I just I just don't know and I just don't care, right? 00:54:16.719 --> 00:54:20.159 So I didn't know that the gentleman came back until someone told me that it's underperforming. 00:54:20.239 --> 00:54:25.519 I'm like, oh, I love the guy Richie for his show, but like it's back and it's underperforming. 00:54:25.679 --> 00:54:27.920 Well, maybe I'll get to it at some point, but I have no idea. 00:54:29.119 --> 00:54:30.960 But but this is this is the key. 00:54:31.199 --> 00:54:35.760 This is the key, I think, in this, which is right, all of the streaming services are increasing prices. 00:54:35.840 --> 00:54:39.280 Apple just went up another another two bucks, I think, a month, and they're on a strong run. 00:54:39.440 --> 00:54:46.320 But what you said there, Colin, is you said um you don't know what's on there, you don't check every day, but you still subscribe. 00:54:46.480 --> 00:54:51.280 Because there's right now, I think Netflix still has a bit of an inertia factor to it. 00:54:52.079 --> 00:55:01.199 Yeah, that right, but the challenge becomes when somebody actually makes that this that conscious decision, you know what, I'm getting more value out of having HBO, Max, and Apple. 00:55:01.280 --> 00:55:03.840 I don't need Netflix, and and that's what they haven't faced. 00:55:03.920 --> 00:55:06.159 That would be really the the sort of the change. 00:55:06.320 -->

00:55:14.079 And and and look, having something where where there's this big movie that was a big hit, and people saw the billboards on the street, I think is maybe they're trying to mitigate against that a little bit. 00:55:14.880 --> 00:55:16.800 I think I think they're gonna go free, but like so. 00:55:16.880 --> 00:55:26.880 I I think everyone's gonna raise their prices, and then there's gonna be a free tier with ads, and that's kind of where it's all going, and you're gonna push people down to free because you like, and then you're like, please just watch our stuff. 00:55:26.960 --> 00:55:54.320 But like, where I think Netflix is fearful, and they should be, is they're not they're too far down the stack to be a true platform, like in the sense that like Apple and Google, specifically Google is kind of that platform, they have the insane user pool from YouTube, and if they're actually going to slowly encroach toward Netflix, I'd be more worried if I was Netflix like that happening versus YouTube thinking about Netflix taking away a handful of content creators paying an obscene amount of money and having them come on Netflix. 00:55:54.400 --> 00:56:01.760 Now I know this from my Twitch, like people used to do this all the time like, hey, hey, ninja, come to Mixture and like we'll pay you the truckload of money. 00:56:01.920 --> 00:56:03.280 Like, great, next person up. 00:56:03.440 --> 00:56:06.559 Because we have an infinite amount of content creators that want to be famous. 00:56:06.639 --> 00:56:08.880 So I don't care if Ninja left because it doesn't matter. 00:56:08.960 --> 00:56:12.400 Like, I'm glad he got his bag, good job, go retire, do whatever you're gonna do. 00:56:12.480 --> 00:56:27.519 Because next person up, but like Netflix is I I again I'd be more worried if I was uh Netflix looking at YouTube than YouTube looking at Netflix, and I think that's YouTube is the feeder for Netflix to premiumize the like the Alex Earl thing that just came out. 00:56:27.599 --> 00:56:34.159 My my wife watched all of it, she watched the entire, you know, there were like 30-minute episodes, but there were seven of them. 00:56:34.239 --> 00:56:37.440 She she binged it, she crushed it, which that's another problem altogether. 00:56:37.519 --> 00:56:55.280 But like well, uh and this is a to me a very, very, very interesting topic, which is that's where a lot of the you know the growth comes from, which is doing things either sort of relicensing video podcast content, uh, which is relatively speaking very which we're available if you'd like. 00:56:55.360 --> 00:56:56.719 We're we're available now. 00:56:57.519 --> 00:57:11.440 Um, or or doing things with sort of new talent, and if it's unscripted again, you know, versus uh an hour of programming and an hour viewed is an hour is an hour viewed, and and and something like that is much less expensive than you know uh uh Stranger Things or something, something like that. 00:57:11.599 --> 00:57:28.000 But the

but the the challenge, the difference is that Netflix has a number of these creator shows that they've rewrited their entire model, and indeed the model of most of the streaming companies over the last decade has been more and more and more and more to require vertical ownership of the entire thing, right? 00:57:28.159 --> 00:57:31.280 We want to own everything, we want we owe it and so on. 00:57:31.360 --> 00:57:34.800 But but he says is it Alex Earl, that's who it is. 00:57:35.199 --> 00:57:37.119 Yeah, yeah, she's a podcaster, right? 00:57:37.199 --> 00:57:40.719 But it's but it's like it's that's like the same universe, like Alex Cooper is another one, right? 00:57:40.800 --> 00:57:41.440 She's one of the blonde. 00:57:41.679 --> 00:57:43.760 But but the point being you can't own her, right? 00:57:44.000 --> 00:57:48.400 Like if it's an existing video podcast, she owns that podcast, not Netflix. 00:57:48.559 --> 00:58:22.800 She'll come and she'll maybe do a sort of doc you follow series, but you can't own her entire world, and so that so that there's also a shifting dynamic, and it's almost a little bit of a Faustian pact for the for the streamers in doing that, because um there's no doubt that the power, you know, that these some of these big creators are are sort of you know leverage that they're getting is is is is is great, and that's the that was the genius of the of the sort of the podcast and then video podcast era, is it enable these these these people, uh athletes, actors, etc. 00:58:23.199 --> 00:58:25.760 to own to own the brands, you know. 00:58:26.000 --> 00:58:30.400 Well, and I mean I think about the math as simple as this. 00:58:30.639 --> 00:58:33.039 YouTube has made more money on Mr. 00:58:33.199 --> 00:58:38.880 Beast than anyone could possibly make on him, no matter how much they pay him, like to go jump on the service. 00:58:39.039 --> 00:58:43.280 Like YouTube has mine that man for infinite, and you know what? 00:58:43.360 --> 00:58:49.360 It worked out for him because he's mined them in return, and now he's getting his bag from everybody who wants to throw money, assuming he could bring his audience with him. 00:58:49.519 --> 00:58:54.400 But in fact, he's not going to because he will have made YouTube far more money than he will make for anyone else. 00:58:54.559 --> 00:58:57.599 Yeah, we are at time and we've been going on for a while. 00:58:57.679 --> 00:58:59.039 We hit all three of our beats. 00:58:59.119 --> 00:59:02.880 I'm gonna give each one of you a chance to say a last word and where we can find you. 00:59:03.039 --> 00:59:04.480 Colin, you want to kick it off? 00:59:04.800 --> 00:59:11.280 Uh Colin, you can find me on LinkedIn, uh ranting and tagging Simon and all my Wolverine feedback next week. 00:59:11.360 --> 00:59:12.559 So come and watch. 00:59:12.880 --> 00:59:13.840 Justin. 00:59:14.559 --> 00:59:15.760 LinkedIn as well. 00:59:15.920 --> 00:59:22.239 I will be hiding from all of the Wolverine comments, and uh I'll be playing it, but I'll be hiding. 00:59:22.559 --> 00:59:23.440 Simon. 00:59:23.679 --> 00:59:27.119 I I just really want to tell you all to play uh Blood of Dawnwalker. 00:59:27.519 --> 00:59:30.719 I am absolutely loving loving this game. 00:59:30.880 --> 00:59:37.199 It's one of the first games I played in ages where I've I've I've sort of thought, wow, I want to replay that after I finish it. 00:59:37.280 --> 00:59:39.440 I think it's so well written. 00:59:39.599 --> 00:59:47.519 I would encourage you if you are on the fence about Wolverine to to uh you know defer that and pick up Blood of Dawnwalker instead. 00:59:47.599 --> 00:59:50.000 It's exceptionally um uh good. 00:59:50.239 --> 00:59:51.920 And so that's that's sort of my PSA. 00:59:52.159 --> 00:59:53.440 I have no affiliation, right? 00:59:53.519 --> 00:59:58.719 I'm not getting getting paid for this, but it's it's it's just a great um, it is a great, great, great video game. 00:59:58.880 --> 01:00:00.320 So fantastic. 01:00:00.400 --> 01:00:05.199 For people listening, Deborah, Max, Steven, uh, thank you so much for joining in today. 01:00:05.280 --> 01:00:06.559 We will be back with you next week. 01:00:06.719 --> 01:00:18.000 So nobody knew who Sony is aiming at, including Sony, a game built for everybody, landed for nobody, and Netflix is reaching for cinemas while the people already paying for it cannot name a show. 01:00:18.239 --> 01:00:22.800 There is one question underneath all three, and it's worth asking about whatever you are working on. 01:00:23.039 --> 01:00:27.519 If somebody matched your feature list tomorrow, would anyone be sad? 01:00:27.840 --> 01:00:31.519 That was Simon Pullman, Justin Ruiz, and Colin Nees. 01:00:31.679 --> 01:00:34.480 Simon, Justin, Colin can all be found on LinkedIn. 01:00:34.639 --> 01:00:37.599 Colin's patch notes are there as well as on Substack. 01:00:37.760 --> 01:00:39.280 It's all worth your time. 01:00:39.519 --> 01:00:43.199 Never Entertained is live every Friday at 10 in the morning. 01:00:43.360 --> 01:00:47.039 The chat is half the show, so come join the Discord or be a part of it. 01:00:47.199 --> 01:00:50.800 Step in if you disagree with us, come debate, argue with us. 01:00:51.039 --> 01:00:58.800 The rest of the week, keep in mind podcast Tuesdays, Design Desk, Wednesdays, Columbine, and Thursdays, Never Entertain, Fridays. 01:00:58.960 --> 01:01:00.159 Thank you all for listening. 01:01:00.239 --> 01:01:01.119 Have a great week.