התמלול המלא של Chernobyl at 40: physics, politics and the nuclear debate today

applied maths, 44 00:01:53,950 --> 00:01:55,890 but I study the nuclear 45 00:01:56,909 --> 00:02:00,129 accidents and radiation in the environment, in particular, 46 00:02:00,269 --> 00:02:03,375 the Chernobyl accident in Ukraine and the Fukushima 47 00:02:03,755 --> 00:02:05,995 accident in Japan. Why did you move from 48 00:02:05,995 --> 00:02:08,715 astrophysics into that? I think I wanted to 49 00:02:08,715 --> 00:02:11,375 do something which at the time I perceived 50 00:02:11,435 --> 00:02:12,495 as more useful. 51 00:02:13,510 --> 00:02:15,189 And that probably it was a probably a 52 00:02:15,189 --> 00:02:15,689 naive, 53 00:02:17,510 --> 00:02:18,550 move, but, 54 00:02:18,950 --> 00:02:21,110 I wanted to do something at the time. 55 00:02:21,110 --> 00:02:23,670 You know, the Kyoto protocol was coming out. 56 00:02:23,670 --> 00:02:26,055 We were worried about climate change. I was 57 00:02:26,215 --> 00:02:28,454 I was in the student green party at 58 00:02:28,454 --> 00:02:29,194 my university, 59 00:02:29,574 --> 00:02:32,134 and I wanted to do something to help 60 00:02:32,134 --> 00:02:32,875 the environment. 61 00:02:34,215 --> 00:02:36,454 And I don't regret the move. I've really 62 00:02:36,454 --> 00:02:38,694 loved every minute of it. Well, perhaps not 63 00:02:38,694 --> 00:02:41,280 every minute, but I've loved the move from 64 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:43,539 physics to environmental science because, basically, 65 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:46,319 you know, the environment, you can treat as 66 00:02:46,319 --> 00:02:48,560 a physical system as well. Because the environment 67 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:50,080 is quite a big topic. Right? There's lots 68 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:52,019 of different aspects of it. Did you immediately 69 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:53,115 go into this sort of, 70 00:02:53,754 --> 00:02:56,314 nuclear disaster side of things? No. I didn't. 71 00:02:56,314 --> 00:02:56,635 I, 72 00:02:57,115 --> 00:02:59,115 I did a master's. I wanted to convert, 73 00:02:59,115 --> 00:03:00,794 so I did a master's in soil and 74 00:03:00,794 --> 00:03:01,615 water engineering. 75 00:03:02,635 --> 00:03:04,415 Originally thinking I was going to 76 00:03:04,794 --> 00:03:07,594 dig wells in irrigation systems in Africa. That 77 00:03:07,594 --> 00:03:08,575 was my idea. 78 00:03:08,930 --> 00:03:11,730 And then I saw a PhD advertised for, 79 00:03:12,610 --> 00:03:14,469 mathematical modeling of radioactivity 80 00:03:15,090 --> 00:03:16,710 in the English Lake District. 81 00:03:17,170 --> 00:03:17,810 So, of course, 82 00:03:18,530 --> 00:03:21,189 there was some fallout from the Chernobyl accident 83 00:03:21,250 --> 00:03:22,310 in parts of 84 00:03:22,689 --> 00:03:23,670 Northern England, 85 00:03:24,085 --> 00:03:26,585 Scotland, and and Wales where it rained 86 00:03:27,205 --> 00:03:28,585 when the plume of 87 00:03:28,885 --> 00:03:29,385 radioactive 88 00:03:29,844 --> 00:03:32,344 particles and gases was passing The UK. 89 00:03:32,805 --> 00:03:34,824 And there was a PhD on mathematical 90 00:03:35,125 --> 00:03:37,125 modeling of that, and I thought that sounds 91 00:03:37,125 --> 00:03:38,104 right up my 92 00:03:38,449 --> 00:03:41,009 my street. And I I've kind of it's 93 00:03:41,009 --> 00:03:43,509 been my career, really, looking at where radioactivity 94 00:03:43,889 --> 00:03:45,969 goes in the environment and how to deal 95 00:03:45,969 --> 00:03:48,469 with the recovery from nuclear accident. 96 00:03:49,969 --> 00:03:50,469 So, 97 00:03:50,849 --> 00:03:52,389 I and most of the people 98 00:03:52,849 --> 00:03:54,229 who I've spoken to 99 00:03:54,555 --> 00:03:55,915 about the fact that I'm going to be 100 00:03:55,915 --> 00:03:58,574 doing this interview, there's a mixture, really. 101 00:03:59,034 --> 00:04:01,034 I saw most. There is a mixture. It's 102 00:04:01,034 --> 00:04:04,474 probably fifty fifty of people either going, that's 103 00:04:04,474 --> 00:04:04,974 terrifying 104 00:04:05,275 --> 00:04:06,814 or that's really fascinating. 105 00:04:07,739 --> 00:04:09,259 How is it for you? What do people 106 00:04:09,259 --> 00:04:11,280 say when you tell them what you research? 107 00:04:11,739 --> 00:04:13,340 Well, I I think the truth is that 108 00:04:13,340 --> 00:04:14,079 it's both. 109 00:04:15,739 --> 00:04:17,919 And you do get mixed mixed reactions. 110 00:04:19,544 --> 00:04:22,904 I think thing perceptions have changed, obviously, over 111 00:04:22,904 --> 00:04:25,144 the decades since the accident. For people as 112 00:04:25,144 --> 00:04:26,044 old as me, 113 00:04:26,504 --> 00:04:29,144 we have vivid kind of memories even of 114 00:04:29,144 --> 00:04:32,024 that time when nobody quite knew what had 115 00:04:32,024 --> 00:04:32,949 happened, and it came out that there'd been 116 00:04:32,949 --> 00:04:33,020 this terrible accident. And there was all sorts 117 00:04:33,020 --> 00:04:34,285 of speculation about how many people had 118 00:04:36,900 --> 00:04:38,360 accident. And there was all sorts of speculation 119 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:40,100 about how many people had died and how 120 00:04:40,100 --> 00:04:41,860 many people were going to die from the 121 00:04:41,860 --> 00:04:45,300 radiation releases and the things that the Soviet 122 00:04:45,300 --> 00:04:48,339 Union did and didn't do to to help 123 00:04:48,339 --> 00:04:50,430 people after the accident. And so, 124 00:04:51,324 --> 00:04:53,985 it was a horrifying event, 125 00:04:55,084 --> 00:04:57,324 but we we've learned a lot from it. 126 00:04:57,324 --> 00:04:59,404 And one of the things we've learned is 127 00:04:59,404 --> 00:04:59,904 that 128 00:05:00,444 --> 00:05:03,324 the the reaction of people and the reaction 129 00:05:03,324 --> 00:05:04,544 of systems and 130 00:05:05,099 --> 00:05:05,599 politicians 131 00:05:05,979 --> 00:05:07,439 to the accident has 132 00:05:07,899 --> 00:05:08,399 caused 133 00:05:08,860 --> 00:05:12,319 perhaps more

problems than the direct radiation itself. 134 00:05:12,699 --> 00:05:13,599 You know, the 135 00:05:14,060 --> 00:05:17,019 the the problems the psychological and social problems 136 00:05:17,019 --> 00:05:18,159 of moving. So 137 00:05:18,475 --> 00:05:19,514 300,000 138 00:05:19,514 --> 00:05:22,894 people were permanently evacuated from their homes. The 139 00:05:23,035 --> 00:05:26,154 Chernobyl Exclusion Zone was created, which is about 140 00:05:26,154 --> 00:05:28,394 the size of Hampshire. It's a giant area 141 00:05:28,394 --> 00:05:29,055 of land. 142 00:05:29,514 --> 00:05:31,134 And that social disruption 143 00:05:31,514 --> 00:05:33,055 together with the kind of 144 00:05:34,449 --> 00:05:37,990 collapse of health services, collapse of employment when 145 00:05:38,129 --> 00:05:39,750 the Soviet Union collapsed 146 00:05:40,370 --> 00:05:41,029 caused real 147 00:05:41,649 --> 00:05:42,709 economic hardship. 148 00:05:43,009 --> 00:05:45,569 The loss of land which was abandoned due 149 00:05:45,569 --> 00:05:46,229 to contamination 150 00:05:47,064 --> 00:05:49,805 caused real economic hardship and and real 151 00:05:50,105 --> 00:05:53,064 fear amongst people about what the consequences of 152 00:05:53,064 --> 00:05:55,324 the radiation was. And in indeed, 153 00:05:55,865 --> 00:05:58,204 I was involved twenty years after, 154 00:05:58,904 --> 00:05:59,805 after Chernobyl 155 00:06:00,105 --> 00:06:02,050 back in 2006 156 00:06:02,050 --> 00:06:05,589 in the UN report on the accident. And 157 00:06:06,290 --> 00:06:08,290 one of the conclusions of that was that 158 00:06:08,290 --> 00:06:10,709 the the social and psychological 159 00:06:11,089 --> 00:06:13,509 impacts of the accident were greater 160 00:06:13,935 --> 00:06:15,875 than the direct radiation 161 00:06:16,574 --> 00:06:17,074 impacts. 162 00:06:18,254 --> 00:06:20,415 And we've sort of been working. You know, 163 00:06:20,415 --> 00:06:22,514 I've spent a lot of time on outreach, 164 00:06:22,654 --> 00:06:23,795 on public communication 165 00:06:24,254 --> 00:06:25,634 about the risks because 166 00:06:26,370 --> 00:06:29,110 people are over in Ukraine, Belarus, Russia, 167 00:06:29,490 --> 00:06:32,310 in those affected areas tend to overestimate 168 00:06:32,689 --> 00:06:35,350 the real risk of radiation to their health, 169 00:06:35,490 --> 00:06:37,430 and that in itself has significant 170 00:06:37,889 --> 00:06:39,270 consequences on communities. 171 00:06:41,009 --> 00:06:43,545 I'm sure there's at least one person who's 172 00:06:43,545 --> 00:06:44,904 listening to this and go, what are you 173 00:06:44,904 --> 00:06:47,225 saying there shouldn't have been an exclusion zone 174 00:06:47,225 --> 00:06:49,305 at all? It shouldn't have happened. That's a 175 00:06:49,305 --> 00:06:51,485 really good question. That's a really good question. 176 00:06:52,105 --> 00:06:53,245 Yes, there should. 177 00:06:54,585 --> 00:06:57,145 Whether it should have been the extent it 178 00:06:57,145 --> 00:06:57,645 was 179 00:06:59,120 --> 00:06:59,779 or whether 180 00:07:00,399 --> 00:07:01,459 it should have been 181 00:07:03,439 --> 00:07:06,000 reduced in size in the years after the 182 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:09,279 accident. So at Fukushima, there's still an exclusion 183 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:11,599 zone at Fukushima and and a very large 184 00:07:11,599 --> 00:07:12,014 one, 185 00:07:12,895 --> 00:07:16,095 but gradually, that's been reduced in size over 186 00:07:16,095 --> 00:07:19,295 the sort of fifteen years since since the 187 00:07:19,295 --> 00:07:19,795 accident. 188 00:07:20,175 --> 00:07:22,595 Certainly, there are parts of the current exclusion 189 00:07:22,735 --> 00:07:24,194 zone which could be reinhabited 190 00:07:25,430 --> 00:07:25,930 now, 191 00:07:26,949 --> 00:07:27,449 safely. 192 00:07:29,189 --> 00:07:31,189 But there are parts which you still wouldn't 193 00:07:31,189 --> 00:07:32,970 want to live in by any means. 194 00:07:34,470 --> 00:07:37,110 And so the the question is quite complex, 195 00:07:37,110 --> 00:07:38,949 and it sort of depends on your risk 196 00:07:38,949 --> 00:07:40,064 tolerance and 197 00:07:40,464 --> 00:07:42,384 and so on. But what what I think 198 00:07:42,384 --> 00:07:45,345 is clear is that particularly in Ukraine, the 199 00:07:45,345 --> 00:07:45,925 the recovery 200 00:07:46,785 --> 00:07:49,925 of land hasn't been as fast as it 201 00:07:49,985 --> 00:07:50,884 should have been. 202 00:07:51,904 --> 00:07:54,550 And so the the main exclusion zone has 203 00:07:54,550 --> 00:07:57,110 been designated as a nature reserve. We did 204 00:07:57,110 --> 00:07:58,490 a a lot of work about 205 00:07:58,870 --> 00:08:01,110 ten years ago on the mammals in the 206 00:08:01,110 --> 00:08:04,310 exclusion zone and found that the mammals in 207 00:08:04,310 --> 00:08:04,810 in 208 00:08:05,235 --> 00:08:08,675 the the Belarusian sector of the exclusion zone 209 00:08:08,675 --> 00:08:11,634 so that the exclusion zone covers Ukraine and 210 00:08:11,634 --> 00:08:14,675 Belarus because Chernobyl's on on the border more 211 00:08:14,675 --> 00:08:15,334 or less. 212 00:08:16,435 --> 00:08:17,894 The the mammal densities 213 00:08:18,589 --> 00:08:20,509 were as high as you see in other 214 00:08:20,509 --> 00:08:22,050 nature reserves in the region, 215 00:08:22,509 --> 00:08:23,649 and that's not because 216 00:08:24,110 --> 00:08:26,269 radiation is good for the the animals. In 217 00:08:26,269 --> 00:08:28,509 fact, the the wolf population is seven times 218 00:08:28,509 --> 00:08:31,305 higher in the exclusion zone than than in 219 00:08:31,305 --> 00:08:33,865 other nature reserves. Not because the radiation is 220 00:08:33,865 --> 00:08:36,665 good for the animals, but because the the 221 00:08:36,665 --> 00:08:40,445 reduction of the human population, so no hunting, 222 00:08:40,504 --> 00:08:41,245 no fishing, 223 00:08:41,705 --> 00:08:42,524 no

forestry, 224 00:08:43,549 --> 00:08:46,029 and no agriculture. Just humans being in an 225 00:08:46,029 --> 00:08:46,529 ecosystem 226 00:08:47,149 --> 00:08:49,549 is worse for the environment than the world's 227 00:08:49,549 --> 00:08:51,250 worst ever nuclear accident. 228 00:08:52,029 --> 00:08:54,190 And that gives us an interesting perspective. So 229 00:08:54,190 --> 00:08:56,529 it's not to say that that radiation's safe. 230 00:08:56,915 --> 00:08:58,115 It's just that there are a lot of 231 00:08:58,115 --> 00:09:00,535 other things that are that are less safe. 232 00:09:01,075 --> 00:09:04,035 And what's what's really interesting, of course, you 233 00:09:04,035 --> 00:09:06,675 know, we we we we we protect humans 234 00:09:06,675 --> 00:09:08,595 much more than we do animals. So we're 235 00:09:08,595 --> 00:09:11,014 worried about a very small, something like 236 00:09:11,319 --> 00:09:13,799 one in ten thousand risk of a person 237 00:09:13,799 --> 00:09:15,659 getting cancer in later life 238 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:17,659 from a radiation exposure. 239 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:21,179 But if we 240 00:09:21,799 --> 00:09:25,175 abandon land and there's there's about 2,000 square 241 00:09:25,175 --> 00:09:28,054 kilometers of land in Ukraine outside the main 242 00:09:28,054 --> 00:09:29,115 exclusion zone 243 00:09:29,495 --> 00:09:31,115 where there's still people living, 244 00:09:31,575 --> 00:09:34,394 but there's no official use of agricultural land 245 00:09:34,455 --> 00:09:34,955 allowed. 246 00:09:35,894 --> 00:09:37,754 And myself and my Ukrainian 247 00:09:38,789 --> 00:09:41,190 colleagues have been trying for a long time 248 00:09:41,190 --> 00:09:42,809 to get that land reclassified. 249 00:09:43,830 --> 00:09:46,409 But it's a very, very difficult political question 250 00:09:46,470 --> 00:09:47,370 to do that. 251 00:09:47,990 --> 00:09:49,209 But I think certainly, 252 00:09:49,830 --> 00:09:53,289 in that area, outside the main exclusion zone, 253 00:09:54,674 --> 00:09:57,794 the the impacts of the taking land out 254 00:09:57,794 --> 00:09:58,454 of production 255 00:09:58,754 --> 00:10:02,054 has been much worse than the radiation impacts 256 00:10:02,115 --> 00:10:04,615 would be of using that land. 257 00:10:07,429 --> 00:10:09,269 I'd I'd I think it's extraordinary. I thought 258 00:10:09,269 --> 00:10:10,629 I'm gonna come back to that. But can 259 00:10:10,629 --> 00:10:12,470 you just you've been to Chernobyl. Right? You've 260 00:10:12,470 --> 00:10:15,029 been to Yeah. Yeah. So can to to 261 00:10:15,110 --> 00:10:16,549 for those people who have never been there 262 00:10:16,549 --> 00:10:18,950 and probably never will be. Well, so can 263 00:10:18,950 --> 00:10:20,549 you talk us through what it's like? What's 264 00:10:20,549 --> 00:10:24,004 it like compared to because I'm I'm fascinated 265 00:10:24,225 --> 00:10:26,625 by that as somebody who's in interested in 266 00:10:26,625 --> 00:10:28,085 environmental science. I'm fascinated 267 00:10:28,544 --> 00:10:30,544 by what the planet would be like. And 268 00:10:30,544 --> 00:10:32,625 I don't don't want people to take offense 269 00:10:32,625 --> 00:10:34,725 at this. It's just a thought experiment. 270 00:10:35,105 --> 00:10:36,945 What what the planet would be like without 271 00:10:36,945 --> 00:10:37,799 people on it? 272 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:39,740 Well, 273 00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:42,839 I mean, we we we are by far, 274 00:10:42,839 --> 00:10:45,339 obviously, the biggest impact on the 275 00:10:45,639 --> 00:10:48,759 planetary ecosystem of anything. And Chernobyl is, you 276 00:10:48,759 --> 00:10:49,419 know, it's 277 00:10:49,799 --> 00:10:50,940 it's now kind of 278 00:10:51,934 --> 00:10:55,375 seen as amongst the ecological circles as a 279 00:10:55,375 --> 00:10:56,834 as a iconic 280 00:10:57,615 --> 00:10:58,115 rewilding, 281 00:10:59,375 --> 00:11:00,514 albeit accidental 282 00:11:01,214 --> 00:11:02,674 and under very terrible 283 00:11:03,054 --> 00:11:03,554 circumstances 284 00:11:03,934 --> 00:11:04,995 for many people. 285 00:11:06,889 --> 00:11:09,870 But it it it does demonstrate very clearly 286 00:11:09,929 --> 00:11:11,309 what we do just 287 00:11:11,610 --> 00:11:12,110 inhabiting 288 00:11:13,049 --> 00:11:13,710 a landscape. 289 00:11:15,290 --> 00:11:17,210 When you go there now I I used 290 00:11:17,210 --> 00:11:19,549 to visit the town of Pripyat. So Pripyat 291 00:11:19,610 --> 00:11:21,129 is the town that was built for the 292 00:11:21,129 --> 00:11:23,575 workers at Chernobyl. It's right next to the 293 00:11:23,575 --> 00:11:25,514 plant. It's about a kilometer away. 294 00:11:26,855 --> 00:11:28,855 And, you know, in the nineteen nineties, you 295 00:11:28,855 --> 00:11:30,475 would start to go see, 296 00:11:30,934 --> 00:11:33,754 you know, trees growing in roads and and 297 00:11:33,975 --> 00:11:36,210 the the forest that there's a sports field, 298 00:11:36,210 --> 00:11:37,509 which had a a small 299 00:11:37,810 --> 00:11:39,190 a small wood in it. 300 00:11:40,769 --> 00:11:42,690 When you when I was going in sort 301 00:11:42,690 --> 00:11:44,529 of, you know, 2010, 302 00:11:44,529 --> 00:11:45,590 2012, 303 00:11:46,610 --> 00:11:48,769 you could barely see some of the huge 304 00:11:48,769 --> 00:11:51,375 buildings. You know, it's a Soviet apartment blocks. 305 00:11:51,375 --> 00:11:53,294 You could barely see them for for the 306 00:11:53,294 --> 00:11:55,235 trees, and you weren't worried about 307 00:11:55,695 --> 00:11:58,095 the radiation. You were worried about, you know, 308 00:11:58,095 --> 00:12:00,095 a rock a piece of concrete falling on 309 00:12:00,095 --> 00:12:02,514 your head or something like that. And 310 00:12:03,460 --> 00:12:05,220 and and and but at the same time, 311 00:12:05,220 --> 00:12:08,179 by the end of the sort of February, 312 00:12:08,179 --> 00:12:10,759 the tourism was really taking off at

Chernobyl. 313 00:12:10,820 --> 00:12:12,580 So we we would we used to go 314 00:12:12,580 --> 00:12:13,240 and we'd 315 00:12:13,940 --> 00:12:16,904 for health and safety reasons, we would and 316 00:12:16,965 --> 00:12:19,605 and protocol, we will be wearing kind of 317 00:12:19,605 --> 00:12:20,105 contamination 318 00:12:20,565 --> 00:12:21,065 suits. 319 00:12:21,764 --> 00:12:23,764 Not that they really, you know, made a 320 00:12:23,764 --> 00:12:26,085 difference or were really necessary, but that was 321 00:12:26,085 --> 00:12:27,304 the protocol. And 322 00:12:27,684 --> 00:12:29,764 we will be wandering around in contamination suits, 323 00:12:29,764 --> 00:12:31,919 and there'd be tourists turning up in buses 324 00:12:31,919 --> 00:12:32,419 taking 325 00:12:32,879 --> 00:12:34,959 photographs, quite rightly, because it's not you know, 326 00:12:34,959 --> 00:12:37,379 a short visit there isn't isn't really dangerous. 327 00:12:38,879 --> 00:12:40,959 So it was beginning to open up to 328 00:12:40,959 --> 00:12:42,879 tourism, but then, of course, first, there was 329 00:12:42,879 --> 00:12:44,879 COVID, and then there was the terrible war 330 00:12:44,879 --> 00:12:47,284 in Ukraine, which shut it all down again. 331 00:12:47,504 --> 00:12:49,585 But it is a very strange place. I 332 00:12:49,585 --> 00:12:52,065 haven't been in the in the Unit 4, 333 00:12:52,065 --> 00:12:54,304 the reactor that exploded, but I've been in 334 00:12:54,304 --> 00:12:56,384 Unit 3, the next door one, and the 335 00:12:56,384 --> 00:12:58,860 control room, which is a kind of mirror 336 00:12:58,860 --> 00:13:00,080 image of the unit, 337 00:13:00,460 --> 00:13:03,660 4 Control Room. And it it for me, 338 00:13:03,660 --> 00:13:06,620 especially having spent really my life studying this 339 00:13:06,620 --> 00:13:08,080 accident, it's a 340 00:13:08,620 --> 00:13:10,860 very emotional place to be to think that 341 00:13:10,860 --> 00:13:12,720 that that was the place where 342 00:13:13,495 --> 00:13:15,834 so many things changed in the world. 343 00:13:17,014 --> 00:13:18,954 Mikhail Gorbachev, the former, 344 00:13:19,654 --> 00:13:21,355 president of the Soviet Union, 345 00:13:21,975 --> 00:13:24,934 attributed in in large part, not in totally, 346 00:13:24,934 --> 00:13:27,589 but in in part, the the collapse of 347 00:13:27,589 --> 00:13:30,169 the Soviet Union to the Chernobyl accident. 348 00:13:30,709 --> 00:13:33,209 Because it was so very clearly demonstrated 349 00:13:33,509 --> 00:13:34,169 to people, 350 00:13:34,549 --> 00:13:36,470 you know, the the the the thing that 351 00:13:36,470 --> 00:13:38,230 the Soviet Union did for people was it 352 00:13:38,230 --> 00:13:40,149 that it it made them feel that they 353 00:13:40,149 --> 00:13:41,450 were being looked after. 354 00:13:42,034 --> 00:13:44,754 Not looked after particularly well, but the communist 355 00:13:44,754 --> 00:13:45,975 system people had jobs. 356 00:13:46,355 --> 00:13:47,254 They were poor, 357 00:13:48,034 --> 00:13:50,834 but they felt safe. And and it made 358 00:13:50,914 --> 00:13:51,975 it kind of exposed 359 00:13:52,355 --> 00:13:53,654 the huge flaws 360 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:56,279 in the Soviet system. And and and I 361 00:13:56,279 --> 00:13:59,179 I believe Gorbachev when he says that Chernobyl 362 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:01,160 was one of the catalysts for the for 363 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:02,700 the break of the Soviet Union. 364 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:05,100 So this terrible accident had 365 00:14:05,559 --> 00:14:06,860 far reaching effects 366 00:14:07,544 --> 00:14:09,245 all over the world. And 367 00:14:09,625 --> 00:14:10,284 to to 368 00:14:11,065 --> 00:14:13,004 to stand in the control room 369 00:14:13,625 --> 00:14:17,144 next door to Unit 4, which exploded, is 370 00:14:17,144 --> 00:14:17,644 quite 371 00:14:18,504 --> 00:14:21,804 a quite an emotional and and fascinating experience. 372 00:14:23,370 --> 00:14:25,049 So I I you talk about the risk. 373 00:14:25,049 --> 00:14:26,809 You talk about, you know, you've not been 374 00:14:26,809 --> 00:14:27,789 in Unit 4. 375 00:14:29,049 --> 00:14:31,929 A short visit is fine. So what what 376 00:14:31,929 --> 00:14:33,850 is it? What what is the risk of 377 00:14:33,850 --> 00:14:35,230 going there? Right. 378 00:14:36,495 --> 00:14:38,414 That's a that's a good question. I mean, 379 00:14:38,414 --> 00:14:40,575 it obviously depends how long you stay there. 380 00:14:40,575 --> 00:14:43,294 So we would typically so we we did 381 00:14:43,294 --> 00:14:44,975 a lot of work on on on the 382 00:14:44,975 --> 00:14:48,254 lakes around Chernobyl, so including the the cooling 383 00:14:48,254 --> 00:14:50,894 pond that that provided the cooling water for 384 00:14:50,894 --> 00:14:52,035 the for the reactors, 385 00:14:52,949 --> 00:14:55,269 and some other lakes that they're even more 386 00:14:55,269 --> 00:14:55,769 contaminated. 387 00:14:56,070 --> 00:14:58,709 So we would spend sort of ten days 388 00:14:58,709 --> 00:15:02,490 visit visiting areas of varying levels of contamination, 389 00:15:02,949 --> 00:15:05,144 and we would get so we measure radiation 390 00:15:06,085 --> 00:15:08,024 dose in what's called millisieverts. 391 00:15:09,365 --> 00:15:11,924 So millisievert is a nice physics unit that 392 00:15:11,924 --> 00:15:14,904 we physicists like because it measures how much 393 00:15:14,964 --> 00:15:17,125 radiation has been absorbed by your body, and 394 00:15:17,125 --> 00:15:18,345 you can measure it. 395 00:15:18,899 --> 00:15:20,899 But it also allows you and this is 396 00:15:20,899 --> 00:15:23,620 where it gets into biology and statistics of 397 00:15:23,620 --> 00:15:25,240 working out cancer risk, 398 00:15:25,940 --> 00:15:28,019 but it also allows you to calculate your 399 00:15:28,019 --> 00:15:29,000 risk of cancer 400 00:15:30,339 --> 00:15:31,720 based on all the epidemiological 401 00:15:32,419 -->

00:15:34,914 studies that have been done of radiation and 402 00:15:34,914 --> 00:15:38,835 cancer, particularly the Hiroshima and Nagasaki atomic bomb 403 00:15:38,835 --> 00:15:39,335 survivors. 404 00:15:39,955 --> 00:15:41,875 And so so I go I go for 405 00:15:41,875 --> 00:15:43,794 about oh, yeah. I used to before the 406 00:15:43,794 --> 00:15:45,794 war. I used to go for about ten 407 00:15:45,794 --> 00:15:48,115 days doing field work in the zone and 408 00:15:48,115 --> 00:15:49,095 other areas, and 409 00:15:49,529 --> 00:15:51,610 and I would get about 0.1 410 00:15:51,610 --> 00:15:52,110 millisieverts 411 00:15:52,490 --> 00:15:53,149 of radiation. 412 00:15:54,250 --> 00:15:56,410 And what does that mean? Well, in The 413 00:15:56,410 --> 00:15:58,029 UK, we get about 414 00:15:58,570 --> 00:15:59,710 2.7 415 00:16:00,410 --> 00:16:00,910 millisieverts 416 00:16:01,290 --> 00:16:03,950 per year. So 27 times higher 417 00:16:04,475 --> 00:16:07,615 from natural radiate from cosmic radiation, from, 418 00:16:08,235 --> 00:16:10,715 radon gas that's in the rocks and in 419 00:16:10,715 --> 00:16:12,014 our houses, from, 420 00:16:12,955 --> 00:16:15,195 from natural radiation in the earth and in 421 00:16:15,195 --> 00:16:15,935 our bodies. 422 00:16:16,460 --> 00:16:18,160 So 27 times higher. 423 00:16:18,779 --> 00:16:20,860 So that's you know, I feel that my 424 00:16:20,860 --> 00:16:23,740 ten days in Chernobyl isn't really a worry, 425 00:16:23,740 --> 00:16:25,740 and I indeed, I get almost the same 426 00:16:25,740 --> 00:16:26,960 dose on the airplane. 427 00:16:27,820 --> 00:16:28,559 And certainly, 428 00:16:28,940 --> 00:16:31,595 in in many areas in the exclusion zone, 429 00:16:31,595 --> 00:16:34,154 the radiation dose rate is less than what 430 00:16:34,154 --> 00:16:36,095 you would get on an air aircraft. 431 00:16:37,595 --> 00:16:39,355 And and then we can do statistic you 432 00:16:39,355 --> 00:16:41,595 know, if we believe the statistics, we can 433 00:16:41,595 --> 00:16:43,595 then say, well, that that one point one 434 00:16:43,595 --> 00:16:45,054 millisieva of radiation, 435 00:16:46,019 --> 00:16:48,420 that translates to about a one in a 436 00:16:48,420 --> 00:16:51,700 hundred thousand chance of me getting cancer in 437 00:16:51,700 --> 00:16:54,019 later life, so my life being shortened by 438 00:16:54,019 --> 00:16:54,519 cancer. 439 00:16:55,460 --> 00:16:57,139 And and I accept that as a risk. 440 00:16:57,139 --> 00:16:58,980 You know, it's much lower than the natural 441 00:16:58,980 --> 00:16:59,480 radiation 442 00:17:00,274 --> 00:17:03,075 risk. In theory, it's much lower than the 443 00:17:03,075 --> 00:17:06,355 risk you get of other illnesses from air 444 00:17:06,355 --> 00:17:06,855 pollution 445 00:17:07,315 --> 00:17:07,974 in cities. 446 00:17:08,434 --> 00:17:10,595 And so it's an acceptable risk. But it 447 00:17:10,595 --> 00:17:12,934 it the the the kind of physics and 448 00:17:13,075 --> 00:17:14,134 the radio biology 449 00:17:14,970 --> 00:17:17,289 is very powerful because it allows us to 450 00:17:17,289 --> 00:17:18,509 say what's the risk, 451 00:17:18,970 --> 00:17:21,390 is that an acceptable risk for people, 452 00:17:22,009 --> 00:17:24,089 and do do we, for example, do we 453 00:17:24,089 --> 00:17:25,390 evacuate an area, 454 00:17:26,089 --> 00:17:27,549 do we stop 455 00:17:27,964 --> 00:17:30,285 crop production and so on? So it's very 456 00:17:30,285 --> 00:17:30,785 powerful. 457 00:17:31,404 --> 00:17:34,065 But the decisions finally are made by politicians 458 00:17:35,005 --> 00:17:37,825 and not by physicists so that the physicists 459 00:17:37,884 --> 00:17:39,105 and radio biologists 460 00:17:39,404 --> 00:17:43,230 can provide the risk estimates, but the decisions 461 00:17:43,230 --> 00:17:45,390 about what you do after a nuclear accident 462 00:17:45,390 --> 00:17:47,170 end up being taken by politicians. 463 00:17:48,750 --> 00:17:50,269 Do you feel like the lessons are being 464 00:17:50,269 --> 00:17:51,630 learned though? Do you feel like I mean, 465 00:17:51,630 --> 00:17:54,029 let's let's really hope that it doesn't happen 466 00:17:54,029 --> 00:17:55,570 again. But if it did happen 467 00:17:56,509 --> 00:17:57,255 somewhere else, 468 00:17:58,454 --> 00:17:59,654 that's really hard to say, isn't it? Because 469 00:17:59,654 --> 00:18:01,255 it depends on who the politicians are. Well, 470 00:18:01,255 --> 00:18:01,994 I mean, it 471 00:18:02,535 --> 00:18:03,994 It it has happened at Fukushima, 472 00:18:04,295 --> 00:18:07,095 of course. And Fukushima wasn't wasn't as bad 473 00:18:07,095 --> 00:18:09,355 as Chernobyl in the sense that it wasn't 474 00:18:09,734 --> 00:18:11,894 a explosion in the reactor core. So in 475 00:18:11,894 --> 00:18:14,990 Chernobyl, there were actually bits of nuclear fuel, 476 00:18:14,990 --> 00:18:15,490 tiny 477 00:18:16,109 --> 00:18:19,390 particles of nuclear fuels spread around the exclusion 478 00:18:19,390 --> 00:18:20,609 zone. So that carried 479 00:18:21,230 --> 00:18:21,950 much more 480 00:18:22,509 --> 00:18:25,710 a much wider range of radioactive elements into 481 00:18:25,710 --> 00:18:26,369 the environment. 482 00:18:27,295 --> 00:18:30,035 But in many ways, it was similar because 483 00:18:30,494 --> 00:18:31,875 you had radioisotopes 484 00:18:32,575 --> 00:18:34,195 like radioactive iodine 485 00:18:34,575 --> 00:18:37,615 and radioactive caesium, which were particular problems at 486 00:18:37,615 --> 00:18:38,835 Chernobyl as well 487 00:18:39,230 --> 00:18:41,009 in Japan. But the Japanese 488 00:18:41,390 --> 00:18:43,950 dealt with the aftermath much better than the 489 00:18:43,950 --> 00:18:45,090 Soviets did. 490 00:18:45,549 --> 00:18:47,309 And so one thing that they did the 491 00:18:47,309 --> 00:18:49,009 the one cancer that's been 492 00:18:49,309 --> 00:18:49,809 unequivocally, 493 00:18:52,234 -->

00:18:53,454 attributed to 494 00:18:53,835 --> 00:18:54,335 Chernobyl 495 00:18:54,794 --> 00:18:57,595 in Ukraine and Belarus and and Russia is 496 00:18:57,595 --> 00:18:59,134 thyroid cancer. So 497 00:18:59,595 --> 00:19:02,654 that comes from our listeners might know about 498 00:19:02,714 --> 00:19:05,130 half life of radioactive elements. So 499 00:19:06,250 --> 00:19:09,130 so, iodine one three one has a eight 500 00:19:09,130 --> 00:19:12,170 day half life. So every eight days, half 501 00:19:12,170 --> 00:19:13,849 of it's gone from the environment. So it 502 00:19:13,849 --> 00:19:15,930 was only around for a few weeks after 503 00:19:15,930 --> 00:19:16,589 the accident 504 00:19:16,970 --> 00:19:18,349 in significant quantities, 505 00:19:19,315 --> 00:19:20,215 but it, 506 00:19:21,154 --> 00:19:23,975 the Soviets failed to stop people and particularly 507 00:19:24,195 --> 00:19:25,255 children from 508 00:19:25,955 --> 00:19:26,934 eating contaminated 509 00:19:27,235 --> 00:19:29,654 produce and drinking contaminated milk. 510 00:19:30,115 --> 00:19:31,575 And and when you 511 00:19:32,460 --> 00:19:35,279 absorb in your body either nonradioactive 512 00:19:35,980 --> 00:19:36,880 stable iodine 513 00:19:37,339 --> 00:19:39,980 or iodine one three one, then almost all 514 00:19:39,980 --> 00:19:42,559 of it goes into the small thyroid gland 515 00:19:42,619 --> 00:19:45,039 gland in your neck because it's used for 516 00:19:45,339 --> 00:19:46,480 thyroid hormone. 517 00:19:47,444 --> 00:19:47,944 And 518 00:19:48,325 --> 00:19:50,884 so children in the in The Soviet Union 519 00:19:50,884 --> 00:19:53,784 were getting really, really high doses of 520 00:19:54,404 --> 00:19:56,744 radioactive iodine to the thyroid, 521 00:19:57,284 --> 00:19:59,704 and that has led to an increase in 522 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:01,460 thyroid cancer. 523 00:20:02,079 --> 00:20:02,980 There's been, 524 00:20:05,039 --> 00:20:07,599 since '20 up to 2015, 525 00:20:07,599 --> 00:20:10,019 there were about five thousand extra cases 526 00:20:10,559 --> 00:20:13,220 caused by the radiation. That's the best estimate. 527 00:20:14,634 --> 00:20:15,134 Ironically, 528 00:20:16,315 --> 00:20:18,255 thyroid cancer is treated by 529 00:20:18,634 --> 00:20:21,194 radioactive iodine one three one. So the the 530 00:20:21,194 --> 00:20:23,835 thyroid's injected with a huge dose to to 531 00:20:23,835 --> 00:20:26,309 kill the cancer cells, and then people are 532 00:20:26,309 --> 00:20:27,029 given for, 533 00:20:27,509 --> 00:20:30,069 hormone replacement therapy for the rest of their 534 00:20:30,069 --> 00:20:30,569 lives. 535 00:20:31,190 --> 00:20:33,349 And so it's a serious disease, but in 536 00:20:33,349 --> 00:20:35,609 ninety nine percent of cases, it's treatable. 537 00:20:36,549 --> 00:20:38,730 And that's the one cancer that's been 538 00:20:39,734 --> 00:20:42,474 been attributed to to Chernobyl unequivocally. 539 00:20:43,095 --> 00:20:45,515 Others have been much more difficult to find. 540 00:20:45,734 --> 00:20:47,914 Now in in Fukushima in Japan, 541 00:20:48,375 --> 00:20:51,275 a lot of radioactive iodine was was 542 00:20:52,599 --> 00:20:53,899 expelled into the environment, 543 00:20:54,919 --> 00:20:55,419 but 544 00:20:56,279 --> 00:20:58,779 the Japanese were very good at stopping 545 00:20:59,399 --> 00:21:02,139 contaminated produce getting into the food chain. 546 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:04,759 And so so far, there hasn't been any 547 00:21:04,759 --> 00:21:06,059 evidence of an increase 548 00:21:06,424 --> 00:21:08,605 in thyroid cancer from Fukushima. 549 00:21:10,025 --> 00:21:13,565 Okay. So, essentially, if it did happen again, 550 00:21:13,625 --> 00:21:16,184 the lessons are there. We we wouldn't have 551 00:21:16,184 --> 00:21:17,085 to do things 552 00:21:18,184 --> 00:21:21,644 wrong this time. Yes. But it wouldn't necessarily 553 00:21:23,779 --> 00:21:26,579 help so much. You know, a nuclear disaster 554 00:21:26,579 --> 00:21:28,820 is a nuclear disaster, and it's a terrible 555 00:21:28,820 --> 00:21:29,320 thing. 556 00:21:30,579 --> 00:21:32,200 People would still be evacuated, 557 00:21:34,705 --> 00:21:37,525 partly for reasons of clear risk, 558 00:21:38,065 --> 00:21:41,265 but also partly for public perception. It's very 559 00:21:41,265 --> 00:21:41,765 difficult 560 00:21:42,305 --> 00:21:44,565 to ask people to stay in a contaminated 561 00:21:45,025 --> 00:21:48,830 environment. And despite the huge efforts Japan has 562 00:21:48,830 --> 00:21:49,890 done after Fukushima, 563 00:21:50,350 --> 00:21:52,830 it's been very difficult to persuade people to 564 00:21:52,830 --> 00:21:53,890 go back to their 565 00:21:54,190 --> 00:21:56,830 homes even when they've cleaned up villages, they've 566 00:21:56,830 --> 00:21:59,150 cleaned up houses, they've even cleaned up bits 567 00:21:59,150 --> 00:22:01,250 of forest near villages and agricultural 568 00:22:01,549 --> 00:22:02,924 land. It's been difficult 569 00:22:03,705 --> 00:22:05,945 to get people. So there's always with nuclear 570 00:22:05,945 --> 00:22:07,484 things, there's always that 571 00:22:08,025 --> 00:22:11,545 that element of perception, and it's something that's 572 00:22:11,545 --> 00:22:13,705 not always logical. You know, when I go 573 00:22:13,705 --> 00:22:16,690 to the hot spots in the exclusion zone 574 00:22:17,309 --> 00:22:19,809 and my Geiger counter goes off the scale, 575 00:22:20,509 --> 00:22:21,809 I know that it's okay 576 00:22:22,429 --> 00:22:24,190 because I've been studying for so long, and 577 00:22:24,190 --> 00:22:26,029 I'm a physicist and all that logic and 578 00:22:26,029 --> 00:22:27,710 everything. But there's something at the back of 579 00:22:27,710 --> 00:22:30,075 my mind that says I I'm not really 580 00:22:30,075 --> 00:22:31,214 too keen on this. 581 00:22:32,154 --> 00:22:34,315 So there's not always a logical element to 582 00:22:34,315 -->

00:22:36,815 it. And and so so no matter how 583 00:22:37,035 --> 00:22:38,875 much we know, and we do know a 584 00:22:38,875 --> 00:22:41,375 lot about radiation risk and and 585 00:22:41,759 --> 00:22:43,920 how it behaves in the environment and up 586 00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:46,080 the food chain and all these things, but 587 00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:46,900 even so, 588 00:22:47,279 --> 00:22:48,900 it's still an incredibly 589 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:50,180 expensive 590 00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:53,839 and disruptive thing to deal with a nuclear 591 00:22:53,839 --> 00:22:54,339 accident. 592 00:22:55,275 --> 00:22:57,355 Good news is that, you know, Chernobyl was 593 00:22:57,355 --> 00:22:58,734 about as bad as 594 00:22:59,195 --> 00:23:01,195 it gets in terms of in terms of 595 00:23:01,195 --> 00:23:02,654 the the the disastrous 596 00:23:03,035 --> 00:23:05,934 things that the Soviet Union did in construction 597 00:23:06,075 --> 00:23:08,830 of those plants, the safe nonsafety 598 00:23:09,210 --> 00:23:09,710 culture, 599 00:23:10,170 --> 00:23:11,710 how the plant was operated, 600 00:23:12,410 --> 00:23:13,230 the hierarchical 601 00:23:13,690 --> 00:23:14,830 nature of their 602 00:23:15,210 --> 00:23:15,710 system. 603 00:23:16,970 --> 00:23:20,109 All those things contributed to that terrible accident, 604 00:23:20,170 --> 00:23:20,670 and 605 00:23:20,994 --> 00:23:23,494 I don't see those elements in 606 00:23:24,034 --> 00:23:25,575 properly run reactors. 607 00:23:25,875 --> 00:23:29,095 Okay. Okay. Did you watch the Chernobyl series? 608 00:23:29,474 --> 00:23:31,474 I did. I did. Yes. And I thought 609 00:23:31,474 --> 00:23:34,214 it was I mean, I I show students 610 00:23:34,355 --> 00:23:36,509 the trailer from it, and and I always 611 00:23:36,509 --> 00:23:38,590 tell them after it that that I've counted 612 00:23:38,590 --> 00:23:40,529 five or six things that are wrong 613 00:23:42,110 --> 00:23:43,950 in the trailer. But, I mean, it was 614 00:23:43,950 --> 00:23:46,210 amazing, and it was almost too good, 615 00:23:46,910 --> 00:23:49,009 because you feel like it's a documentary 616 00:23:50,134 --> 00:23:51,654 when we've got to remember that it's a 617 00:23:51,654 --> 00:23:53,414 drama. And in fact, I did a I 618 00:23:53,414 --> 00:23:55,195 did a article for The Conversation 619 00:23:55,575 --> 00:23:57,654 on 10 things that are wrong with it, 620 00:23:57,654 --> 00:23:59,494 and there certainly are things that are wrong. 621 00:23:59,494 --> 00:24:02,375 But it certainly to give you a flavor 622 00:24:02,375 --> 00:24:02,789 of 623 00:24:03,350 --> 00:24:05,350 what I imagine it must have been like 624 00:24:05,350 --> 00:24:06,570 on that night of 625 00:24:07,590 --> 00:24:10,009 twenty six April nineteen eighty six, 626 00:24:11,350 --> 00:24:13,670 it really is quite amazing. I mean, it 627 00:24:13,670 --> 00:24:16,250 is an an amazing piece of drama. 628 00:24:16,815 --> 00:24:19,294 And and even sort of,

you know, they 629 00:24:19,294 --> 00:24:21,855 go into the reactor physics and how the 630 00:24:21,855 --> 00:24:22,835 accident happened. 631 00:24:23,214 --> 00:24:26,434 So it's it's fantastic piece of science drama, 632 00:24:27,375 --> 00:24:29,694 but we've got to remember that they they 633 00:24:29,694 --> 00:24:30,194 were 634 00:24:30,734 --> 00:24:31,474 they they 635 00:24:32,120 --> 00:24:34,440 it's a drama. It's not a documentary. And 636 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:34,940 and 637 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:36,059 and sort of 638 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:39,640 making the viewer feel like there was a 639 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:41,960 chance that Chernobyl could have gone up as 640 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:43,820 a hydrogen bomb 641 00:24:44,494 --> 00:24:47,055 somehow if the reactor core touched the water 642 00:24:47,055 --> 00:24:47,875 in the basement, 643 00:24:49,134 --> 00:24:52,595 isn't isn't really credible. You know, nuclear reactors 644 00:24:52,654 --> 00:24:55,375 don't explode like nuclear bombs because they don't 645 00:24:55,375 --> 00:24:56,035 have the 646 00:24:56,509 --> 00:24:57,809 right type of fissile 647 00:24:58,589 --> 00:25:00,929 uranium or the right amount of it. 648 00:25:02,190 --> 00:25:03,950 So, you know, I don't I haven't spoken 649 00:25:03,950 --> 00:25:04,589 to any, 650 00:25:05,549 --> 00:25:08,029 nuclear physicists who've who've told me that they 651 00:25:08,029 --> 00:25:08,529 could. 652 00:25:10,445 --> 00:25:12,545 But so so there what it was exaggerated, 653 00:25:12,845 --> 00:25:14,765 and the health some of the health effects 654 00:25:14,765 --> 00:25:16,305 and health risks were exaggerated. 655 00:25:16,684 --> 00:25:18,924 But but certainly, the the the night of 656 00:25:18,924 --> 00:25:21,884 the accident and the what happened to those 657 00:25:21,884 --> 00:25:22,384 very 658 00:25:22,919 --> 00:25:24,759 brave people who were in the plant at 659 00:25:24,759 --> 00:25:27,339 the time, the helicopter pilots, the firemen. 660 00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:30,200 So those people who got radiation sickness. So 661 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:32,679 about a hundred and thirty four people got 662 00:25:32,679 --> 00:25:35,639 radiation sickness from Chernobyl, and and and it 663 00:25:35,639 --> 00:25:38,914 was very dramatically and and brilliantly portrayed. 664 00:25:40,815 --> 00:25:43,134 So, and what about the kind of political 665 00:25:43,134 --> 00:25:44,734 side of it? Is it is that accurate? 666 00:25:44,734 --> 00:25:46,494 What the sort of why it happened and 667 00:25:46,494 --> 00:25:49,375 and that fear of of everything going I 668 00:25:49,375 --> 00:25:50,994 I think it I think it is. 669 00:25:52,950 --> 00:25:55,029 And, you know, we can only speculate, and 670 00:25:55,029 --> 00:25:56,009 there's still speculation 671 00:25:56,390 --> 00:25:58,630 about the events that actually happened in the 672 00:25:58,630 --> 00:25:59,609 control room 673 00:26:00,630 --> 00:26:02,549 and the night of the accident. But it 674 00:26:02,549 --> 00:26:05,269 feels very believable to me, and and it 675 00:26:05,269 --> 00:26:07,924 was part of a a culture where 676 00:26:08,384 --> 00:26:10,884 you weren't allowed to question your superiors. 677 00:26:11,904 --> 00:26:13,924 And that is the worst thing for safety. 678 00:26:14,704 --> 00:26:16,544 The story I've heard and there are many 679 00:26:16,544 --> 00:26:18,944 stories about the accident. And but the story 680 00:26:18,944 --> 00:26:20,804 I've heard is that the guy who was 681 00:26:21,390 --> 00:26:22,450 operating the, 682 00:26:23,230 --> 00:26:25,730 control rods, so the the the 683 00:26:27,549 --> 00:26:30,029 the Chernobyl plant was doing an experiment on 684 00:26:30,029 --> 00:26:31,809 the night of the accident, and 685 00:26:32,830 --> 00:26:34,830 they'd got the reactor into a state that 686 00:26:34,830 --> 00:26:36,210 it shouldn't have been in, 687 00:26:37,414 --> 00:26:40,295 before they started this experiment. And and the 688 00:26:40,295 --> 00:26:42,454 guy who was operating the control rod said 689 00:26:42,454 --> 00:26:44,634 we need to shut shut it down now. 690 00:26:46,134 --> 00:26:48,154 But the guy who was running the control 691 00:26:48,214 --> 00:26:49,434 room, who wasn't 692 00:26:50,819 --> 00:26:53,559 as expert as the actual operators were, 693 00:26:53,940 --> 00:26:56,359 he said, just get on with it, basically, 694 00:26:56,419 --> 00:26:58,039 or you're gonna lose your job. 695 00:26:59,619 --> 00:27:01,319 That's the story that I heard. 696 00:27:02,755 --> 00:27:05,634 And and it's believable in the Soviet system 697 00:27:05,634 --> 00:27:07,315 at that time, and it and it sort 698 00:27:07,315 --> 00:27:09,815 of shows you the vulnerability of those sort 699 00:27:09,875 --> 00:27:11,015 of state controlled 700 00:27:11,875 --> 00:27:14,855 systems where people aren't allowed to question hierarchy. 701 00:27:14,914 --> 00:27:17,109 And then and then, of course, there are 702 00:27:17,109 --> 00:27:20,570 multitude other reasons for the accident, improper training, 703 00:27:21,269 --> 00:27:23,609 reactor design, all all those things, 704 00:27:23,990 --> 00:27:26,869 safety systems which have been switched off to 705 00:27:26,869 --> 00:27:29,130 conduct this experiment and so on. 706 00:27:29,829 --> 00:27:32,845 But that's how these very fortunately, very, very 707 00:27:32,845 --> 00:27:33,345 rare 708 00:27:33,644 --> 00:27:35,664 accidents happen is that kind of 709 00:27:36,125 --> 00:27:38,305 all these different elements coming together. 710 00:27:38,765 --> 00:27:39,265 Okay. 711 00:27:39,565 --> 00:27:41,644 But you haven't been to Unit 4. Is 712 00:27:41,644 --> 00:27:43,164 that because you're not allowed or you don't 713 00:27:43,164 --> 00:27:45,349 want to? I I missed out 714 00:27:46,210 --> 00:27:48,369 because at some point, they were allowing people 715 00:27:48,369 --> 00:27:48,869 in. 716 00:27:49,410

--> 00:27:51,650 And then I I just missed it, and 717 00:27:51,650 --> 00:27:54,049 then COVID came along. So, yeah, I I 718 00:27:54,049 --> 00:27:55,570 would I would go in. 719 00:27:56,369 --> 00:27:58,369 There is, you know, Unit 4, the control 720 00:27:58,369 --> 00:27:59,109 room isn't, 721 00:28:00,664 --> 00:28:02,505 the doses you get from being in the 722 00:28:02,505 --> 00:28:04,924 control room of Unit 4 aren't that high. 723 00:28:06,825 --> 00:28:09,785 But if you, you know, to go near 724 00:28:09,785 --> 00:28:12,070 the what they call the elephant's fault, which 725 00:28:12,070 --> 00:28:14,630 is the melted reactor core. So the reactor 726 00:28:14,630 --> 00:28:15,849 core melted and, 727 00:28:17,269 --> 00:28:19,769 fell down into the basement of the building. 728 00:28:20,470 --> 00:28:21,769 To go near that, 729 00:28:22,150 --> 00:28:23,830 you don't go for more than a few 730 00:28:23,830 --> 00:28:25,450 seconds because it's still very, 731 00:28:26,184 --> 00:28:27,725 very, very, very radioactive. 732 00:28:28,904 --> 00:28:30,365 It takes a very big 733 00:28:30,825 --> 00:28:31,805 dose of radiation 734 00:28:32,664 --> 00:28:33,565 to give you 735 00:28:34,265 --> 00:28:35,965 acute radiation sickness. 736 00:28:37,305 --> 00:28:38,984 And the people that got it were the 737 00:28:38,984 --> 00:28:40,285 people who were on 738 00:28:40,639 --> 00:28:41,139 site 739 00:28:41,759 --> 00:28:44,480 during the accident. The and the subsequent so 740 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:45,139 the fire 741 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:46,740 burned for ten days 742 00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:50,079 after the accident. And so the people that 743 00:28:50,079 --> 00:28:51,460 got radiation sickness 744 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:52,500 were 745 00:28:54,865 --> 00:28:56,724 about there were about 134 746 00:28:56,784 --> 00:28:57,765 plant operators, 747 00:28:58,144 --> 00:28:58,644 firemen, 748 00:28:59,505 --> 00:29:02,464 helicopter pilots who were sent up to drop 749 00:29:02,464 --> 00:29:05,125 sand and boron on lead to try and 750 00:29:05,265 --> 00:29:07,904 quench the fire and and put dampen the 751 00:29:07,904 --> 00:29:08,884 nuclear reactions. 752 00:29:11,769 --> 00:29:12,829 Outside of that, 753 00:29:13,849 --> 00:29:16,890 there there have been reports of some people 754 00:29:16,890 --> 00:29:18,589 in the exclusion zone 755 00:29:19,049 --> 00:29:21,704 getting radiation sickness, but 756 00:29:22,505 --> 00:29:24,365 it's it's questionable. 757 00:29:24,825 --> 00:29:27,484 I don't think there's strong evidence of that. 758 00:29:28,505 --> 00:29:31,144 The doses that some people got were very, 759 00:29:31,144 --> 00:29:31,964 very significant, 760 00:29:32,744 --> 00:29:34,184 but perhaps below 761 00:29:34,664 --> 00:29:35,460 even the most 762 00:29:36,339 --> 00:29:39,460 high doses were below that threshold for getting 763 00:29:39,460 --> 00:29:40,679 radiation sickness. 764 00:29:42,099 --> 00:29:43,779 Even if we look at the town of 765 00:29:43,779 --> 00:29:44,279 Pripyat, 766 00:29:45,460 --> 00:29:47,640 so the dose in in Pripyat 767 00:29:48,179 --> 00:29:48,839 on average, 768 00:29:49,365 --> 00:29:51,305 so it's a town next to the plant, 769 00:29:51,444 --> 00:29:52,984 was about thirty millisieverts 770 00:29:54,404 --> 00:29:55,704 because people were evacuated 771 00:29:56,164 --> 00:29:59,384 about thirty six hours after the accident. And 772 00:29:59,684 --> 00:30:01,704 and that's equivalent to three, 773 00:30:02,909 --> 00:30:04,609 whole body CT scans. 774 00:30:06,509 --> 00:30:09,649 And so it's not a huge dose. So 775 00:30:09,789 --> 00:30:10,690 for for 776 00:30:11,230 --> 00:30:13,230 and I'm not I'm not because we don't 777 00:30:13,230 --> 00:30:16,335 know, but I suspect there weren't cases of 778 00:30:16,654 --> 00:30:18,115 radiation sickness outside 779 00:30:19,054 --> 00:30:20,034 the site itself. 780 00:30:22,015 --> 00:30:22,755 But certainly, 781 00:30:23,134 --> 00:30:26,255 the huge, huge majority of doses were in 782 00:30:26,255 --> 00:30:28,755 that region where you've got an elevated 783 00:30:29,214 --> 00:30:30,829 cancer risk and 784 00:30:31,289 --> 00:30:34,029 perhaps not not as an insignificant one, 785 00:30:34,970 --> 00:30:35,470 but 786 00:30:36,009 --> 00:30:38,190 not immediate radiation sickness. 787 00:30:39,450 --> 00:30:42,569 If we look at the so about 600,000 788 00:30:42,569 --> 00:30:44,029 people, mainly soldiers, 789 00:30:45,394 --> 00:30:47,634 were sent in. Some scientists as well. I've 790 00:30:47,634 --> 00:30:50,375 got friends who were who were sent in 791 00:30:50,434 --> 00:30:53,575 to help clean up after the accident, and 792 00:30:53,875 --> 00:30:55,794 they got an average dose of a hundred 793 00:30:55,794 --> 00:30:56,294 millisieverts. 794 00:30:57,500 --> 00:30:59,920 And that gives if we believe the statistics, 795 00:30:59,980 --> 00:31:02,720 and I I do generally believe the statistics, 796 00:31:02,779 --> 00:31:03,840 they're not perfect. 797 00:31:04,460 --> 00:31:06,860 If we believe the statistics, that's about a 798 00:31:06,860 --> 00:31:09,500 one in a hundred extra chance of getting 799 00:31:09,500 --> 00:31:11,025 cancer in later life. 800 00:31:12,144 --> 00:31:13,365 And that's not insignificant. 801 00:31:14,065 --> 00:31:15,924 But if we look at the air pollution 802 00:31:16,065 --> 00:31:16,565 statistics, 803 00:31:17,184 --> 00:31:19,265 if we live in somebody living in Central 804 00:31:19,265 --> 00:31:19,765 London 805 00:31:20,464 --> 00:31:22,625 has about a one in a hundred chance 806 00:31:22,625 --> 00:31:24,724 of early death from air pollution. 807 00:31:25,345 --> 00:31:26,244 And, of course, 808 00:31:26,630 --> 00:31:29,529 annually, there are millions of early deaths worldwide 809 00:31:29,750 --> 00:31:30,730 from air pollution. 810 00:31:31,269 --> 00:31:34,150 So to understand risk, we have to look 811 00:31:34,150 --> 00:31:34,730 at

the 812 00:31:35,430 --> 00:31:38,070 context and what other risks there are around 813 00:31:38,070 --> 00:31:40,894 us. And certainly for people in those contaminated 814 00:31:41,275 --> 00:31:41,775 areas, 815 00:31:43,275 --> 00:31:43,775 that 816 00:31:45,355 --> 00:31:47,994 especially outside the exclusion zone and even people 817 00:31:47,994 --> 00:31:50,494 who are evacuated from the exclusion zone, 818 00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:53,039 the radiation risk that they got is not 819 00:31:53,039 --> 00:31:54,980 the biggest problem in their lives. 820 00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:58,160 And certainly in that's true in a place 821 00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:01,380 like Ukraine where there's no good health services, 822 00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:04,320 or the health service isn't as good as 823 00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:06,065 it should be. There's high unemployment. 824 00:32:06,605 --> 00:32:09,424 All these risk factors are there's high 825 00:32:09,804 --> 00:32:11,585 smoking. There's high alcoholism. 826 00:32:12,845 --> 00:32:14,845 All those risk facts are much, much more 827 00:32:14,845 --> 00:32:16,865 important than than the radiation. 828 00:32:18,829 --> 00:32:20,430 Yeah. I'm just going back to the environment. 829 00:32:20,430 --> 00:32:22,029 Right? So you wanted to sort of you 830 00:32:22,029 --> 00:32:24,049 wanted to make a difference. Right? 831 00:32:25,470 --> 00:32:28,029 Are you studying this because you want to 832 00:32:28,029 --> 00:32:28,529 know 833 00:32:28,990 --> 00:32:31,974 that nuclear energy is a good option. Well, 834 00:32:31,974 --> 00:32:33,815 I I started out when I was a 835 00:32:33,815 --> 00:32:35,275 student, I was anti nuclear. 836 00:32:36,294 --> 00:32:36,694 And, 837 00:32:37,335 --> 00:32:39,015 you know, it was quite fashionable at the 838 00:32:39,015 --> 00:32:40,615 time, I suppose, and I was a bit 839 00:32:40,615 --> 00:32:41,115 greeny. 840 00:32:42,375 --> 00:32:42,775 And, 841 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:46,720 but the more I've learned, the more I've 842 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:49,200 realized that we have to be sensible about 843 00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:51,119 what risks we take. It's not a question 844 00:32:51,119 --> 00:32:54,160 of not taking risks because every decision we 845 00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:56,660 make, whether it's to build warm more windmills, 846 00:32:57,934 --> 00:33:00,194 more solar farms, more gas, 847 00:33:01,214 --> 00:33:04,255 power stations, whatever. Everything we do involves a 848 00:33:04,255 --> 00:33:04,755 risk. 849 00:33:05,535 --> 00:33:07,694 And when I when I look at the 850 00:33:07,934 --> 00:33:08,994 you know, my understanding 851 00:33:09,295 --> 00:33:12,095 of radiation risk and my understanding of the 852 00:33:12,095 --> 00:33:14,119 risk to our electricity system 853 00:33:14,900 --> 00:33:17,080 and climate change, I don't see 854 00:33:17,700 --> 00:33:18,200 radiation 855 00:33:18,660 --> 00:33:19,559 and nuclear 856 00:33:20,180 --> 00:33:23,140 sites,

well run nuclear sites, I don't see 857 00:33:23,140 --> 00:33:24,119 them as a 858 00:33:24,500 --> 00:33:26,279 significant risk in comparison 859 00:33:26,580 --> 00:33:28,865 with risk from climate change. 860 00:33:29,164 --> 00:33:30,225 You know, if we 861 00:33:30,605 --> 00:33:31,105 regulated 862 00:33:31,805 --> 00:33:33,265 our fossil fuels 863 00:33:34,605 --> 00:33:37,744 in to the same standards as we regulate 864 00:33:38,045 --> 00:33:39,424 nuclear power stations, 865 00:33:39,725 --> 00:33:41,984 we would shut down every power station 866 00:33:43,250 --> 00:33:43,750 tomorrow. 867 00:33:44,130 --> 00:33:45,589 We would stop all 868 00:33:45,890 --> 00:33:46,390 traffic 869 00:33:47,250 --> 00:33:47,750 tomorrow 870 00:33:49,250 --> 00:33:52,210 because the risk from carbon dioxide is way, 871 00:33:52,210 --> 00:33:54,470 way higher than the risk from nuclear, 872 00:33:55,534 --> 00:33:57,615 from radiation. You know, you can more or 873 00:33:57,615 --> 00:34:00,575 less not measure the radiation that's emitted from 874 00:34:00,575 --> 00:34:01,394 a well run 875 00:34:01,694 --> 00:34:03,075 nuclear power station 876 00:34:03,615 --> 00:34:06,174 or indeed a waste store if it's well 877 00:34:06,174 --> 00:34:06,674 designed. 878 00:34:08,094 --> 00:34:10,050 But every day, we're chucking out 879 00:34:11,010 --> 00:34:13,349 tens of millions of tons of CO two. 880 00:34:13,890 --> 00:34:16,530 The the German experience has been very interesting 881 00:34:16,530 --> 00:34:18,469 because after the Fukushima accident, 882 00:34:19,410 --> 00:34:20,789 the German politicians 883 00:34:21,170 --> 00:34:23,010 finally sort of threw in the towel and 884 00:34:23,010 --> 00:34:25,349 said, we're not gonna support nuclear anymore, 885 00:34:26,184 --> 00:34:27,164 and we're going 886 00:34:27,944 --> 00:34:28,025 to, 887 00:34:29,065 --> 00:34:31,164 shut down our remaining nuclear 888 00:34:31,625 --> 00:34:32,764 power plants early. 889 00:34:33,224 --> 00:34:34,444 And that has been, 890 00:34:35,625 --> 00:34:37,545 and what they didn't do, they didn't replace 891 00:34:37,545 --> 00:34:40,440 it with with solar and wind. You know, 892 00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:42,599 they did increase their solar and wind, but 893 00:34:42,599 --> 00:34:43,099 what 894 00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:45,559 the effect of shutting down the nuclear was 895 00:34:45,559 --> 00:34:46,780 that they kept burning 896 00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:49,640 brown coal, which is the worst, the most 897 00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:50,140 polluting 898 00:34:51,844 --> 00:34:53,704 form of electricity generation. 899 00:34:54,724 --> 00:34:56,025 And that's been attributed 900 00:34:56,324 --> 00:34:56,724 to, 901 00:34:57,125 --> 00:34:58,324 36,000,000 902 00:34:58,324 --> 00:35:00,804 extra tons a year of c o two 903 00:35:00,804 --> 00:35:01,864 going in the atmosphere 904 00:35:02,484 --> 00:35:04,724 as whether well as thousands of deaths from 905 00:35:04,724 --> 00:35:05,385 air pollution. 906 00:35:06,619 --> 00:35:08,160 And so if the risk balance, 907 00:35:11,099 --> 00:35:13,660 the they could say, well, we've avoided all 908 00:35:13,660 --> 00:35:14,559 risk of nuclear 909 00:35:14,860 --> 00:35:15,760 power accidents 910 00:35:16,059 --> 00:35:18,539 because we've shut down our power stations. But 911 00:35:18,539 --> 00:35:19,599 they've Mhmm. 912 00:35:20,775 --> 00:35:23,014 Avoiding that tiny what I think is a 913 00:35:23,014 --> 00:35:23,994 tiny risk 914 00:35:24,934 --> 00:35:26,394 has led to the definite 915 00:35:27,574 --> 00:35:30,074 emission of lots and lots of carbon dioxide 916 00:35:30,934 --> 00:35:31,835 and the definite 917 00:35:32,639 --> 00:35:33,859 early death from 918 00:35:34,319 --> 00:35:36,239 air pollution or as definite as certain as 919 00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:38,480 we can be in terms of risk of 920 00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:39,139 air pollution. 921 00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:42,719 And these are the choices we have. So 922 00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:43,859 why is it then 923 00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:44,739 that 924 00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:46,659 we don't 925 00:35:47,025 --> 00:35:49,744 treat brown coal with the same kind of 926 00:35:49,744 --> 00:35:51,525 regulations that we do then clear? 927 00:35:54,304 --> 00:35:54,804 Because 928 00:35:55,264 --> 00:35:58,484 we can't. Because politically, we can't. I think 929 00:35:59,264 --> 00:36:01,204 I you know, energy is 930 00:36:01,789 --> 00:36:02,289 fundamental 931 00:36:02,829 --> 00:36:03,969 to our society. 932 00:36:05,309 --> 00:36:07,469 And it's you know, we see the debate 933 00:36:07,469 --> 00:36:09,969 in recent years about gas and electricity 934 00:36:10,269 --> 00:36:10,769 prices 935 00:36:11,150 --> 00:36:11,650 politically. 936 00:36:12,030 --> 00:36:14,365 I think it would be very different. I 937 00:36:14,365 --> 00:36:16,704 mean, certainly, Britain shut down its coal 938 00:36:17,565 --> 00:36:18,945 power stations totally 939 00:36:19,244 --> 00:36:19,744 brilliant. 940 00:36:20,765 --> 00:36:22,765 And and in that way, cut down its 941 00:36:22,765 --> 00:36:25,744 carbon dependency of of its electricity generation. 942 00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:28,300 But 943 00:36:28,679 --> 00:36:29,340 to actually 944 00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:30,780 do the things 945 00:36:32,039 --> 00:36:34,360 we need to do to reduce c o 946 00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:35,579 two emissions enough, 947 00:36:36,039 --> 00:36:38,679 we and I and I include myself in 948 00:36:38,679 --> 00:36:40,684 this. Really, we don't 949 00:36:41,945 --> 00:36:44,184 want to do the things that we would 950 00:36:44,184 --> 00:36:45,085 need to do 951 00:36:46,105 --> 00:36:47,164 to shut down 952 00:36:47,465 --> 00:36:49,005 carbon dioxide emissions. 953 00:36:49,545 --> 00:36:52,204 We don't want to stop having foreign holidays. 954 00:36:52,425 --> 00:36:53,085 We don't 955 00:36:53,820 --> 00:36:56,619 want to pay quite probably quite a lot 956

00:36:56,619 --> 00:36:57,760 more for our electricity. 957 00:36:59,980 --> 00:37:02,780 We're so dependent on fossil fuels that it's 958 00:37:02,780 --> 00:37:05,200 a real struggle, and we see that politically 959 00:37:05,340 --> 00:37:07,360 all over the world. It's a real struggle 960 00:37:07,820 --> 00:37:08,320 to 961 00:37:09,734 --> 00:37:10,234 to 962 00:37:11,014 --> 00:37:11,914 to shut down 963 00:37:12,614 --> 00:37:15,414 carbon dioxide emissions because we're so dependent on 964 00:37:15,414 --> 00:37:18,534 them. And we've been pretty successful in The 965 00:37:18,534 --> 00:37:20,394 UK, so we've cut our electricity 966 00:37:21,289 --> 00:37:23,849 carbon dependence by about a half in in 967 00:37:23,849 --> 00:37:24,750 thirty years, 968 00:37:26,010 --> 00:37:26,989 which is fantastic. 969 00:37:27,369 --> 00:37:27,869 But 970 00:37:28,329 --> 00:37:31,849 that's just electricity, and electricity is only something 971 00:37:31,849 --> 00:37:32,349 like 972 00:37:33,130 --> 00:37:35,925 20 to 30% of our total energy use. 973 00:37:36,005 --> 00:37:37,445 You know, all the rest, the gas that 974 00:37:37,445 --> 00:37:38,985 heats our homes, the 975 00:37:39,285 --> 00:37:41,525 the petrol and diesel that drives our cars 976 00:37:41,525 --> 00:37:42,265 and lorries, 977 00:37:43,765 --> 00:37:46,744 that's about three times our electricity generation. 978 00:37:47,525 --> 00:37:49,625 And so it's it's it's a huge 979 00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:51,800 it's a huge challenge, and it's one that 980 00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:53,980 we certainly won't make by 2050 981 00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:55,420 is to decarbonize 982 00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:56,539 our whole 983 00:37:56,920 --> 00:37:59,320 our whole economy because we're so dependent on 984 00:37:59,320 --> 00:37:59,820 energy. 985 00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:02,280 But we we could get that energy through 986 00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:03,420 nuclear and renewables. 987 00:38:06,755 --> 00:38:09,715 With with a massive expansion and a massive 988 00:38:09,715 --> 00:38:11,095 investment, we could. 989 00:38:11,875 --> 00:38:13,954 And that's, you know, I suppose that's that's 990 00:38:13,954 --> 00:38:15,575 in a way what I've been advocating 991 00:38:15,954 --> 00:38:17,015 for a long time. 992 00:38:18,195 --> 00:38:20,215 But it would be a massive investment. 993 00:38:22,109 --> 00:38:22,609 And 994 00:38:22,909 --> 00:38:25,089 it not just in renewables, but in battery 995 00:38:25,150 --> 00:38:25,650 storage, 996 00:38:28,109 --> 00:38:30,510 hydro storage, and so on. Because the thing 997 00:38:30,510 --> 00:38:33,389 about electricity is you can't store it or 998 00:38:33,389 --> 00:38:35,755 or, you know, you have to store it. 999 00:38:35,755 --> 00:38:38,335 And storage is very difficult for electricity 1000 00:38:38,795 --> 00:38:39,934 and very expensive. 1001 00:38:41,195 --> 00:38:43,195 So it would and and I don't think 1002 00:38:43,195 --> 00:38:45,035 there's any doubt that it would put our 1003 00:38:45,035 --> 00:38:46,800 electricity bills up quite a lot. 1004 00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:49,699 I have friends, very lovely people, 1005 00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:52,019 delightful human beings who are fervently 1006 00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:54,800 against nuclear energy. Just, you know, they say 1007 00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:55,119 it's 1008 00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:58,420 whatever you say, it's linked to nuclear 1009 00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:00,660 weapons. It's the same thing. 1010 00:39:01,025 --> 00:39:03,985 It's the people involved involved in those things. 1011 00:39:03,985 --> 00:39:06,465 If there was a terrorist attack on one 1012 00:39:06,465 --> 00:39:07,045 of these, 1013 00:39:07,585 --> 00:39:09,765 nuclear power stations, it would be terrible. 1014 00:39:11,105 --> 00:39:12,545 What do you say to those people? I 1015 00:39:12,545 --> 00:39:14,305 have a sympathy for those people because I 1016 00:39:14,305 --> 00:39:16,289 I was one of them for a for 1017 00:39:16,289 --> 00:39:18,630 a time. And and certainly, 1018 00:39:19,010 --> 00:39:20,230 you know, there are no 1019 00:39:20,690 --> 00:39:21,590 there are no 1020 00:39:22,530 --> 00:39:23,410 100% 1021 00:39:23,410 --> 00:39:24,309 clear answers 1022 00:39:25,090 --> 00:39:27,250 in this. I'm I'm not saying, and I 1023 00:39:27,250 --> 00:39:29,590 don't think anybody else is. I'm not saying, 1024 00:39:29,890 --> 00:39:33,014 like the Soviets did, that nuclear zero risk 1025 00:39:33,014 --> 00:39:35,574 of nuclear accidents. I'm not saying there's zero 1026 00:39:35,574 --> 00:39:36,954 risk of terrorism. 1027 00:39:37,494 --> 00:39:40,074 I'm not saying there's zero risk of nuclear 1028 00:39:40,135 --> 00:39:42,474 plants being targeted in in war. 1029 00:39:44,579 --> 00:39:47,239 But what we have to set the nuclear 1030 00:39:47,539 --> 00:39:49,000 risk against is 1031 00:39:49,380 --> 00:39:50,599 the 100% 1032 00:39:50,900 --> 00:39:52,840 or pretty much 100% 1033 00:39:52,900 --> 00:39:54,519 risk of climate change, 1034 00:39:55,860 --> 00:39:58,440 the very high risk from air pollution 1035 00:39:58,994 --> 00:40:01,094 of fossil fuels. And I 1036 00:40:02,114 --> 00:40:03,894 personally don't think it's, 1037 00:40:04,835 --> 00:40:05,335 feasible 1038 00:40:06,194 --> 00:40:08,355 to depend a 100% 1039 00:40:08,355 --> 00:40:09,574 on wind and solar 1040 00:40:10,594 --> 00:40:12,534 and hydro. I don't think it's achievable. 1041 00:40:13,954 --> 00:40:14,454 And 1042 00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:16,539 and nuclear provides 1043 00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:18,300 twenty four seven 1044 00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:21,659 reliable energy and has done in The UK 1045 00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:22,219 since 1046 00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:24,440 1958, 1047 00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:25,179 I think. 1048 00:40:26,599 --> 00:40:28,360 And in many parts of Europe, you know, 1049 00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:29,019 in France, 1050 00:40:30,265 --> 00:40:32,585 it's it's been a major

proportion of their 1051 00:40:32,585 --> 00:40:35,485 electricity generation for decades. And so 1052 00:40:35,945 --> 00:40:37,945 I think we have to balance our risk. 1053 00:40:37,945 --> 00:40:40,025 We don't we can't not take a risk. 1054 00:40:40,025 --> 00:40:42,840 We can't take make decisions which don't involve 1055 00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:44,840 some form of risk. And I think the 1056 00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:46,220 balance very strongly 1057 00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:48,300 is that we need 1058 00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:51,019 nuclear and we need renewables 1059 00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:53,099 going forward. 1060 00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:55,945 And we need to shut down the fossil 1061 00:40:55,945 --> 00:40:57,885 fuel plants as soon as we can. 1062 00:40:59,545 --> 00:41:01,385 At the start of this podcast, I did 1063 00:41:01,385 --> 00:41:04,505 promise you that I would possibly be tasting 1064 00:41:04,505 --> 00:41:07,224 the apple brandy made from crops within the 1065 00:41:07,224 --> 00:41:08,925 exclusion zone in Chernobyl. 1066 00:41:10,059 --> 00:41:11,599 So we did some work 1067 00:41:12,059 --> 00:41:15,019 in, Ukraine in a town called Naradichi, which 1068 00:41:15,019 --> 00:41:16,380 is one of the in one of the 1069 00:41:16,380 --> 00:41:19,500 semi abandoned areas. So there's still people. There's 1070 00:41:19,500 --> 00:41:20,880 still a school. There's, 1071 00:41:21,739 --> 00:41:23,900 shops and so on in Naradichi, but there's 1072 00:41:23,900 --> 00:41:26,635 no official use of agricultural land. And that's 1073 00:41:26,635 --> 00:41:29,434 had real big impact on the population, not 1074 00:41:29,434 --> 00:41:31,755 just in how they perceive their lives. You 1075 00:41:31,755 --> 00:41:33,594 know, they they feel like they're living in 1076 00:41:33,594 --> 00:41:34,255 a radioactively 1077 00:41:34,635 --> 00:41:35,135 contaminated 1078 00:41:35,434 --> 00:41:35,934 environment, 1079 00:41:36,315 --> 00:41:39,050 but economically as well because much of the 1080 00:41:39,050 --> 00:41:40,909 agricultural land can't be used. 1081 00:41:41,369 --> 00:41:43,530 And so we did a project. Main the 1082 00:41:43,530 --> 00:41:46,730 serious bit well, it's both serious, but the 1083 00:41:46,730 --> 00:41:49,070 main point of the project was to demonstrate 1084 00:41:49,130 --> 00:41:51,130 that land could be used. So we developed 1085 00:41:51,130 --> 00:41:53,210 a protocol to show that land could be 1086 00:41:53,210 --> 00:41:56,005 used. But at the same time, we took 1087 00:41:56,005 --> 00:41:58,985 products from that so called contaminated area, 1088 00:42:00,244 --> 00:42:03,605 and then we fermented and distilled them to 1089 00:42:03,605 --> 00:42:04,105 make 1090 00:42:04,565 --> 00:42:05,625 a kind of snaps. 1091 00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:08,579 And we found that the distillate, 1092 00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:11,780 the final product was completely free of Chernobyl 1093 00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:12,340 radioactivity. 1094 00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:17,039 And so we set up the Chernobyl Spirit 1095 00:42:17,039 --> 00:42:18,579 Community Interest Company, 1096 00:42:20,445 --> 00:42:22,605 which is a social enterprise. And so we 1097 00:42:22,605 --> 00:42:25,005 work with a distillery in Ukraine, and they 1098 00:42:25,005 --> 00:42:27,744 go to these semi abandoned areas and 1099 00:42:28,045 --> 00:42:30,204 collect apples. So they just buy apples from 1100 00:42:30,204 --> 00:42:33,360 people's gardens, from abandoned orchards, and so on. 1101 00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:36,980 And they ferment and distill them, and, 1102 00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:39,619 they make an apple schnapps 1103 00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:41,539 and an apple brandy, 1104 00:42:42,720 --> 00:42:45,039 which we can say is completely free of 1105 00:42:45,039 --> 00:42:46,019 Chernobyl radioactivity. 1106 00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:48,934 It still got natural carbon 14 in like 1107 00:42:48,934 --> 00:42:52,054 every other food product. Every everything else with 1108 00:42:52,054 --> 00:42:54,535 carbon in it, including our bodies, but we 1109 00:42:54,535 --> 00:42:56,954 can say it's completely free of Chernobyl radioactivity. 1110 00:42:57,255 --> 00:42:58,554 And so we sell this 1111 00:42:58,855 --> 00:43:03,389 online on our website, www.atomicvodka.com. 1112 00:43:04,349 --> 00:43:04,849 And, 1113 00:43:05,630 --> 00:43:08,529 and so far, we've sold about 8,000 1114 00:43:08,589 --> 00:43:09,809 bottles, and we've 1115 00:43:10,269 --> 00:43:12,609 raised about £50,000 1116 00:43:12,670 --> 00:43:15,469 for which we've donated to Ukraine to support 1117 00:43:15,469 --> 00:43:15,969 those 1118 00:43:16,644 --> 00:43:19,605 communities that were affected by the Chernobyl accident 1119 00:43:19,605 --> 00:43:21,925 and now by the terrible war. Brilliant. So 1120 00:43:21,925 --> 00:43:23,305 the distillation process 1121 00:43:23,845 --> 00:43:25,385 gets rid of the radiation? 1122 00:43:27,204 --> 00:43:27,704 Yes. 1123 00:43:28,494 --> 00:43:31,519 Because the elements, the caesium, the strontium, 1124 00:43:31,900 --> 00:43:34,160 the plut tiny amounts of plutonium, 1125 00:43:34,940 --> 00:43:36,960 the the elements that are in the original 1126 00:43:37,739 --> 00:43:38,239 product, 1127 00:43:39,180 --> 00:43:41,280 they in in the in the apples, 1128 00:43:41,864 --> 00:43:42,025 they 1129 00:43:42,664 --> 00:43:44,605 they're they're not super dangerous 1130 00:43:44,905 --> 00:43:47,784 at those levels, but there there there is 1131 00:43:47,784 --> 00:43:49,724 significant radiation there. 1132 00:43:51,224 --> 00:43:54,425 But when we ferment and distill them, the 1133 00:43:54,425 --> 00:43:55,405 the radioactive 1134 00:43:55,704 --> 00:43:56,204 element 1135 00:43:56,510 --> 00:43:58,050 stay in the waste product. 1136 00:43:58,989 --> 00:44:01,969 So the distillation is a kind of purifying 1137 00:44:02,589 --> 00:44:05,949 has a purifying effect, and the and the 1138 00:44:05,949 -->

00:44:07,170 product, the distillate, 1139 00:44:08,030 --> 00:44:10,609 is we haven't been able to measure any 1140 00:44:10,815 --> 00:44:11,795 Chernobyl radioactivity 1141 00:44:12,255 --> 00:44:13,554 in that final product. 1142 00:44:14,494 --> 00:44:15,474 You know, Ukrainians 1143 00:44:15,775 --> 00:44:17,934 really know what they're doing when it comes 1144 00:44:17,934 --> 00:44:19,074 to making alcohol. 1145 00:44:19,614 --> 00:44:21,934 And the the distillery we work with really 1146 00:44:21,934 --> 00:44:24,530 take a lot of care over this. And, 1147 00:44:24,970 --> 00:44:27,210 and it is it is a really nice 1148 00:44:27,210 --> 00:44:30,250 product. Yeah. It's beautifully packaged as well. I 1149 00:44:30,250 --> 00:44:32,750 mean Thank you. Thank you. I feel 1150 00:44:33,289 --> 00:44:35,769 persuaded to taste it. So let's do that 1151 00:44:35,769 --> 00:44:38,250 one here. And let's let's have one together. 1152 00:44:38,250 --> 00:44:38,864 Why not? 1153 00:44:40,144 --> 00:44:42,085 I'm gonna pour what I call a tasting 1154 00:44:42,144 --> 00:44:44,005 shot, which is about 10 mils. 1155 00:44:45,105 --> 00:44:45,505 But you 1156 00:44:46,304 --> 00:44:47,925 alright. You're being more generous. 1157 00:44:48,385 --> 00:44:48,885 Yeah. 1158 00:44:50,704 --> 00:44:52,224 I'm only going out for a curry. I 1159 00:44:52,224 --> 00:44:52,885 don't mind. 1160 00:44:54,599 --> 00:44:55,900 Oh, smells wonderful. 1161 00:44:56,760 --> 00:44:59,239 So this has been aged in Ukrainian oak 1162 00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:00,940 barrels for two years. 1163 00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:03,340 Okay. Amazing. 1164 00:45:04,039 --> 00:45:05,000 Amazing. That's, 1165 00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:06,380 to you, sir. 1166 00:45:07,565 --> 00:45:10,284 It's pretty good. No. It's good. That is 1167 00:45:10,284 --> 00:45:12,364 very good. We originally wanted to make a 1168 00:45:12,364 --> 00:45:13,344 vodka, but 1169 00:45:13,964 --> 00:45:16,065 we were told that the vodka 1170 00:45:16,444 --> 00:45:18,704 industry in Ukraine is very complicated 1171 00:45:19,885 --> 00:45:21,660 to say the least. And, 1172 00:45:22,059 --> 00:45:24,639 we were advised not to get get involved 1173 00:45:25,019 --> 00:45:25,519 yet. 1174 00:45:26,699 --> 00:45:28,639 Vodka has a history throughout, 1175 00:45:29,980 --> 00:45:31,839 even before the Soviet times, 1176 00:45:32,619 --> 00:45:33,074 of 1177 00:45:33,474 --> 00:45:36,275 being part of the government structure. So the 1178 00:45:36,275 --> 00:45:36,775 czars 1179 00:45:37,074 --> 00:45:39,014 controlled their people with vodka 1180 00:45:39,875 --> 00:45:40,695 in part. 1181 00:45:41,554 --> 00:45:44,514 The Soviet Union in part controlled their people 1182 00:45:44,514 --> 00:45:46,844 with vodka. And so vodka has been a 1183 00:45:47,450 --> 00:45:49,309 in that part of the world has 1184 00:45:49,610 --> 00:45:52,590 been a very complicated thing, and certainly private 1185 00:45:53,769 --> 00:45:55,550 production of vodka wasn't allowed 1186 00:45:55,930 --> 00:45:58,750 and and isn't really allowed in Ukraine 1187 00:45:59,369 --> 00:46:00,269 at the moment. 1188 00:46:00,614 --> 00:46:02,775 Although, hopefully, you know, when the war ends 1189 00:46:02,775 --> 00:46:05,255 and they move more towards Europe or Western 1190 00:46:05,255 --> 00:46:05,755 Europe, 1191 00:46:06,295 --> 00:46:08,074 then that will change. So 1192 00:46:08,454 --> 00:46:10,775 we were advised not to get involved in 1193 00:46:10,775 --> 00:46:13,380 the vodka business, but we would like to 1194 00:46:13,380 --> 00:46:14,659 We would like to, but it's a matter 1195 00:46:14,659 --> 00:46:17,000 of finding the right people to work with. 1196 00:46:17,299 --> 00:46:19,619 We decided to go for this apple schnapps 1197 00:46:19,619 --> 00:46:21,319 and apple brandy. But, actually, 1198 00:46:21,859 --> 00:46:24,259 if you compare you know, vodka's basically ethanol 1199 00:46:24,259 --> 00:46:24,920 and water. 1200 00:46:26,105 --> 00:46:26,585 So you 1201 00:46:27,144 --> 00:46:29,385 I never feel you're getting very good value 1202 00:46:29,385 --> 00:46:31,724 for money if you buy an expensive vodka. 1203 00:46:32,424 --> 00:46:34,424 But this actually so this is distilled. So 1204 00:46:34,424 --> 00:46:36,664 vodka's distilled to 92% 1205 00:46:36,664 --> 00:46:39,005 and then cut down to 40% 1206 00:46:39,224 --> 00:46:39,960 for sale, 1207 00:46:40,679 --> 00:46:41,500 by dilution. 1208 00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:44,780 This is distilled up to about 82% 1209 00:46:44,839 --> 00:46:45,339 alcohol 1210 00:46:45,639 --> 00:46:48,219 and then cut down to 42%, 1211 00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:50,059 by dilution. 1212 00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:51,159 And, 1213 00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:53,719 and that means that it keeps more of 1214 00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:54,460 the flavors. 1215 00:46:55,385 --> 00:46:57,625 So you actually can tell that it's kind 1216 00:46:57,625 --> 00:46:59,945 of from it's got more fruity flavors and 1217 00:46:59,945 --> 00:47:01,885 so on, where the vodka is basically 1218 00:47:02,505 --> 00:47:05,304 ethanol and water. Yeah. Okay. To to be 1219 00:47:05,304 --> 00:47:06,844 perfectly honest with you, 1220 00:47:07,464 --> 00:47:08,984 I thought you were sending me vodka. I 1221 00:47:08,984 --> 00:47:11,039 was very pleased when this arrived because I'm 1222 00:47:11,039 --> 00:47:12,800 not a big vodka fan. But I do 1223 00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:14,160 like it. This is much better. Yeah. Yeah. 1224 00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:16,480 No. It's brilliant. It's what what a lovely 1225 00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:18,000 thing that is. Did you think people are 1226 00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:18,739 buying it, 1227 00:47:20,079 --> 00:47:22,640 that there's there's two motivations there. Right? There's 1228 00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:24,019 there's one, it's quite fun. 1229 00:47:25,014 --> 00:47:27,355 Yeah. It's got a bit of, you know, 1230 00:47:27,735 --> 00:47:30,855 zing

about it. It's certainly unique. Yeah. And 1231 00:47:30,855 --> 00:47:32,954 the other side is is supporting Ukraine. 1232 00:47:33,494 --> 00:47:34,954 Well, we're not really 1233 00:47:35,335 --> 00:47:37,655 strong on marketing. We it doesn't marketing is 1234 00:47:37,655 --> 00:47:40,074 not what what interests us really. 1235 00:47:40,829 --> 00:47:42,989 We don't have a real great idea of 1236 00:47:42,989 --> 00:47:44,690 who our customers are. I suspect 1237 00:47:45,070 --> 00:47:46,829 quite a few of them are physicists like 1238 00:47:46,829 --> 00:47:48,369 me who are interested in 1239 00:47:48,670 --> 00:47:50,750 nuclear things, but there are also a lot 1240 00:47:50,750 --> 00:47:51,410 of people 1241 00:47:51,710 --> 00:47:54,110 who who just wanna support Ukraine at this 1242 00:47:54,110 --> 00:47:54,849 time. And 1243 00:47:55,255 --> 00:47:57,594 and many of us are are really, 1244 00:47:58,054 --> 00:48:00,775 you know, we're shocked and horrified with what's 1245 00:48:00,775 --> 00:48:02,934 happening in Ukraine and want to do our 1246 00:48:02,934 --> 00:48:03,675 little bit 1247 00:48:04,135 --> 00:48:05,195 to support them. 1248 00:48:05,655 --> 00:48:08,954 Indeed, one of our, directors, Kyrilo, who 1249 00:48:09,320 --> 00:48:12,059 who distilled our first experimental bottle 1250 00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:13,420 of atomic, 1251 00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:16,519 he got he's a scientist, but he got 1252 00:48:16,519 --> 00:48:18,199 called up to the front line. You know, 1253 00:48:18,199 --> 00:48:20,059 he's got a family, but he's been 1254 00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:22,440 away from them for three and a half 1255 00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:23,324 years now. 1256 00:48:23,804 --> 00:48:25,804 And we're, you know, we're in awe of 1257 00:48:25,804 --> 00:48:26,284 these, 1258 00:48:26,684 --> 00:48:29,405 Ukrainians who are who are really fighting. Well, 1259 00:48:29,405 --> 00:48:31,964 I think they're fighting for for Europe and 1260 00:48:31,964 --> 00:48:33,505 and democracy. So 1261 00:48:33,964 --> 00:48:35,724 a lot of people want to support that, 1262 00:48:35,724 --> 00:48:38,380 and and and I I get that. And 1263 00:48:38,380 --> 00:48:41,099 we're doing our tiny little bit, but it 1264 00:48:41,099 --> 00:48:43,519 it makes you feel better in this 1265 00:48:43,820 --> 00:48:46,780 current climate to be doing something positive for 1266 00:48:46,780 --> 00:48:47,280 Ukraine. 1267 00:48:47,900 --> 00:48:50,300 Yeah. No. It's a lovely thing. I in 1268 00:48:50,300 --> 00:48:51,644 my research for this, 1269 00:48:54,445 --> 00:48:57,005 I found an article which people may well 1270 00:48:57,005 --> 00:48:57,744 have read 1271 00:48:58,125 --> 00:49:00,684 from the 05/08/2021 1272 00:49:00,684 --> 00:49:02,765 on the BBC by the wonderful Victoria Gill, 1273 00:49:02,765 --> 00:49:04,844 formerly of the MSC in science communication at 1274 00:49:04,844 --> 00:49:07,510 UAB Bristol, which is a great thing, saying 1275 00:49:07,510 --> 00:49:08,010 that, 1276 00:49:08,789 --> 00:49:09,110 the, 1277 00:49:09,590 --> 00:49:10,970 Chernobyl Spirit Company 1278 00:49:11,349 --> 00:49:13,190 said 1,500 1279 00:49:13,190 --> 00:49:15,530 bottles of atomic alcoholic drink were confiscated 1280 00:49:15,990 --> 00:49:18,150 and taken to the Kyiv prosecutor's office. Can 1281 00:49:18,150 --> 00:49:19,574 you tell me about that? Yes. 1282 00:49:20,614 --> 00:49:21,434 We've had 1283 00:49:22,135 --> 00:49:23,835 quite a few ups and downs 1284 00:49:24,534 --> 00:49:26,474 on this project, and 1285 00:49:27,335 --> 00:49:29,734 we don't re so what happened was it 1286 00:49:29,815 --> 00:49:31,974 it's taken a lot of effort to get 1287 00:49:31,974 --> 00:49:33,420 this off the ground. And 1288 00:49:33,980 --> 00:49:35,980 so we worked with, with our friends at 1289 00:49:35,980 --> 00:49:39,119 the Palynochka Distillery who specialize in fruit 1290 00:49:39,659 --> 00:49:40,880 alcohols. And they're 1291 00:49:41,179 --> 00:49:43,099 over in Uzhghorod, which is right in the 1292 00:49:43,099 --> 00:49:44,859 West Of Ukraine, which is why I've been 1293 00:49:44,859 --> 00:49:47,359 able to visit them since the war started. 1294 00:49:48,844 --> 00:49:49,984 And so they produced, 1295 00:49:50,284 --> 00:49:50,784 finally, 1296 00:49:51,164 --> 00:49:51,984 our first 1297 00:49:52,444 --> 00:49:53,744 thousand or so 1298 00:49:54,125 --> 00:49:55,405 bottles, 1,500, 1299 00:49:55,405 --> 00:49:56,625 I think it was, bottles, 1300 00:49:57,804 --> 00:50:00,500 of our atomic spirits. And they they had 1301 00:50:00,500 --> 00:50:02,500 them all loaded up. They were they would 1302 00:50:02,500 --> 00:50:04,440 arrange for them to come to The UK, 1303 00:50:05,219 --> 00:50:07,300 and they drove out of the factory gates 1304 00:50:07,300 --> 00:50:07,800 and 1305 00:50:08,260 --> 00:50:08,920 the Ukrainian 1306 00:50:09,859 --> 00:50:12,980 SBU, sometimes called the secret services, were there 1307 00:50:12,980 --> 00:50:14,039 waiting for them 1308 00:50:14,675 --> 00:50:18,054 and confiscated the law. And and we have 1309 00:50:18,914 --> 00:50:22,135 two theories of why they got con confiscated, 1310 00:50:22,434 --> 00:50:23,974 neither of which we really 1311 00:50:24,755 --> 00:50:26,914 know know whether either are true. One is 1312 00:50:26,914 --> 00:50:27,414 that 1313 00:50:27,849 --> 00:50:29,769 it's because there was something funny about them 1314 00:50:29,769 --> 00:50:32,650 coming from Chernobyl, and the Ukrainians weren't sure 1315 00:50:32,650 --> 00:50:33,710 about all that. 1316 00:50:34,010 --> 00:50:35,530 But the other one, which I think is 1317 00:50:35,530 --> 00:50:38,349 more probable, was that somebody was trying to, 1318 00:50:38,809 --> 00:50:40,030 steal our idea 1319 00:50:41,130 --> 00:50:41,630 and, 1320 00:50:42,454 --> 00:50:44,054 put a spanner in the works of what 1321 00:50:44,054 --> 00:50:46,215 we were trying to do for their own

1322 00:50:46,215 --> 00:50:46,715 reasons. 1323 00:50:47,015 --> 00:50:47,835 And so, 1324 00:50:48,775 --> 00:50:50,855 it was a very difficult time because my 1325 00:50:50,855 --> 00:50:53,175 Ukrainian colleagues were in, you know, in fear 1326 00:50:53,175 --> 00:50:56,119 of their freedom really because they they worried 1327 00:50:56,119 --> 00:50:58,059 that something was gonna happen to them. 1328 00:50:59,880 --> 00:51:02,360 And so they got their bottles got taken 1329 00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:04,300 to Kyiv, to the Kyiv Prosecutor's 1330 00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:05,500 Warehouse. 1331 00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:08,539 And, we got a lawyer. 1332 00:51:09,184 --> 00:51:11,125 So we got a lawyer in Kiev, 1333 00:51:11,824 --> 00:51:12,304 and, 1334 00:51:13,344 --> 00:51:14,005 and fortunately, 1335 00:51:14,385 --> 00:51:17,764 I'd I'd visited Chernobyl with Victoria Gill who 1336 00:51:18,065 --> 00:51:20,224 did a fantastic piece on our work at 1337 00:51:20,224 --> 00:51:23,269 Chernobyl. And so I I emailed her, and 1338 00:51:23,269 --> 00:51:25,030 she said, I'll do an article on it. 1339 00:51:25,030 --> 00:51:27,670 And she rang the prosecutor's office, and I 1340 00:51:27,670 --> 00:51:28,730 think that was 1341 00:51:29,190 --> 00:51:32,150 probably helped us get things sorted out in 1342 00:51:32,150 --> 00:51:33,449 Ukraine. I mean, Ukraine's 1343 00:51:34,295 --> 00:51:37,175 trying its very hardest to become a, you 1344 00:51:37,175 --> 00:51:37,675 know, 1345 00:51:37,974 --> 00:51:39,195 European democracy, 1346 00:51:39,494 --> 00:51:41,735 but there has been and still is a 1347 00:51:41,735 --> 00:51:43,035 lot of corruption there. 1348 00:51:43,335 --> 00:51:46,019 And they're fighting very hard against that, but 1349 00:51:47,539 --> 00:51:48,980 but they did the right thing in the 1350 00:51:48,980 --> 00:51:49,480 end, 1351 00:51:50,340 --> 00:51:52,280 perhaps with a nudge from the BBC. 1352 00:51:53,860 --> 00:51:56,119 Yeah. And the bottles got released, 1353 00:51:57,619 --> 00:52:00,019 and and and eventually ended up in The 1354 00:52:00,019 --> 00:52:02,154 UK after a lot of effort. So it 1355 00:52:02,154 --> 00:52:03,914 has been it was a difficult start to 1356 00:52:03,914 --> 00:52:04,414 the 1357 00:52:04,714 --> 00:52:05,534 to the project. 1358 00:52:06,154 --> 00:52:08,734 But since then, things have been going relatively 1359 00:52:08,954 --> 00:52:11,674 smoothly, and we're managing to so we've raised 1360 00:52:11,674 --> 00:52:12,795 £50,000, 1361 00:52:12,795 --> 00:52:16,170 which we've donated to the communities affected by 1362 00:52:16,170 --> 00:52:18,010 the accident and the and the war in 1363 00:52:18,010 --> 00:52:18,510 Ukraine. 1364 00:52:19,050 --> 00:52:20,809 One possibility is they just thought it was 1365 00:52:20,809 --> 00:52:22,409 really tasty and wanted some more of it, 1366 00:52:22,409 --> 00:52:24,329 which is the situation I'm in right now. 1367 00:52:24,329 --> 00:52:24,570 We 1368 00:52:25,210 --> 00:52:27,289 right. Thank you. We we counted the bottles 1369 00:52:27,289 --> 00:52:29,469 very carefully when they did arrive, and 1370 00:52:30,554 --> 00:52:32,554 They were they were mainly all there. I'd 1371 00:52:32,554 --> 00:52:34,394 like to thank Jim Smith not only for 1372 00:52:34,394 --> 00:52:36,554 sending me the apple brandy, which I highly 1373 00:52:36,554 --> 00:52:38,715 recommend, but also for joining me for this 1374 00:52:38,715 --> 00:52:41,114 episode of the Physics World Stories podcast. If 1375 00:52:41,114 --> 00:52:42,234 you'd like to get your hand on a 1376 00:52:42,234 --> 00:52:43,675 bottle, you don't have to join any kind 1377 00:52:43,675 --> 00:52:45,539 of police force. You can simply go to 1378 00:52:45,539 --> 00:52:47,300 to the physics world website where you'll find 1379 00:52:47,300 --> 00:52:50,900 a link to the atomic spirits company, and 1380 00:52:50,900 --> 00:52:53,460 it certainly is a talking point for the 1381 00:52:53,460 --> 00:52:55,300 end of any evening where you might be 1382 00:52:55,300 --> 00:52:57,780 thinking of reaching for a brandy. We'll be 1383 00:52:57,780 --> 00:52:59,460 back next month with something else from this 1384 00:52:59,460 --> 00:53:01,652 wonderful world of physics, and thank you very 1385 00:53:01,652 --> 00:53:02,632 much for listening.