התמלול המלא של 479 The Counterintuitive Psychology of Better Leadership with Sébastien Page

won 44-0 national title. 00:05:09.120 --> 00:05:10.720 His name is Daniel Zimmett. 00:05:10.879 --> 00:05:13.920 He actually ended up writing a couple pages at the end of the book. 00:05:14.160 --> 00:05:15.439 But you're right, Mahan. 00:05:15.680 --> 00:05:16.639 It was my wife. 00:05:16.879 --> 00:05:20.399 And she just looked at me and said, you got to look at things differently. 00:05:20.639 --> 00:05:22.560 You know what was interesting though? 00:05:22.720 --> 00:05:36.240 Is that when I told my father, for example, or other colleagues, I'm doing research in psychology and I'm learning things about positive psychology that are amazing, that are underused in business. 00:05:36.480 --> 00:05:37.920 It's like a gold mine. 00:05:38.079 --> 00:05:39.199 I need to write about this. 00:05:39.279 --> 00:05:40.399 I love to write. 00:05:40.639 --> 00:05:42.319 Maybe there's a book. 00:05:42.560 --> 00:05:44.879 I was told to stay in my lane. 00:05:45.120 --> 00:05:48.079 A lot of people told me, just write another finance book. 00:05:48.160 --> 00:05:52.079 I had already co-authored a finance book and then authored a finance book. 00:05:52.399 --> 00:05:53.759 Stay in your lane. 00:05:54.079 --> 00:05:57.120 Agents told me stay in your lane as well. 00:05:57.600 --> 00:06:08.800 And that was horrible advice because we innovate as a society when people step out of their lanes and make connections between different things. 00:06:09.120 --> 00:06:12.800 It's value added in a lot of different perspectives, Sebastian. 00:06:13.120 --> 00:06:22.160 When is for the individual, going outside of your lane expands your own thinking, your own understanding? 00:06:22.480 --> 00:06:34.319 Then when you convey that to others, you convey it very differently than someone who has been in that lane all their lives. 00:06:34.800 --> 00:06:42.000 Now, why this attraction to the non-quantitative? 00:06:42.959 --> 00:07:00.639 One of the biggest challenges that we have in money management, and I will guess, Mahan, with a lot of your listeners, where expertise is highly valued inside the enterprise, is that we promote domain experts, people that know their stuff. 00:07:00.879 --> 00:07:11.600 Maybe they're great salespeople, maybe they're great engineers, maybe they're great portfolio managers, money managers into positions of leadership. 00:07:11.920 --> 00:07:15.120 That transition is not obvious. 00:07:15.439 --> 00:07:18.480 And I've made that transition myself. 00:07:18.800 --> 00:07:27.600 And I've realized that all the soft people's skill aspect of things becomes so important. 00:07:28.160 --> 00:07:32.399 And in a sense, high-performing experts aren't really trained for this. 00:07:32.639 --> 00:07:47.759 I love that you keep bringing back that I've gone outside my lane and with a curious mindset and earlier, and you talked about your listeners that way too, people that like to learn, business people that will learn their entire life. 00:07:48.079 --> 00:07:56.240 When I wrote the book, The Psychology of Leadership, it was for me to learn and improve myself as well. 00:07:56.480 --> 00:08:12.240 In fact, my agent wanted me to, I had to take something out of the book because, in hindsight, arrogant, but I said, like Marcus Aurelius, I'm writing this book for myself as much as for you, dear reader. 00:08:12.319 --> 00:08:17.920 Now, Marcus Aurelius wrote one of the most famous self-help, self-improvement books of all time. 00:08:18.079 --> 00:08:19.439 He was a Roman emperor. 00:08:19.680 --> 00:08:22.639 I like the example of he's going to work every day, right? 00:08:22.720 --> 00:08:24.879 He's not writing from the ivory tower. 00:08:25.279 --> 00:08:34.799 But also, scholars have surmised that he's writing the meditations in particular as notes to himself, reminders to himself. 00:08:35.039 --> 00:08:39.200 I ended up writing in the intro, I'm writing this book for self-improvement. 00:08:39.279 --> 00:08:41.840 I'm assuming you're reading it for the same reason. 00:08:42.080 --> 00:08:43.519 We're all learning. 00:08:43.759 --> 00:08:46.000 Self-improvement is awesome. 00:08:46.320 --> 00:08:52.559 It's not if approach right, and if backed by research, it's fantastic. 00:08:52.639 --> 00:08:58.639 It's one of the great enjoyment that people can have in life, is to focus on their self-improvement. 00:08:58.799 --> 00:08:59.519 And you know what? 00:08:59.600 --> 00:09:03.200 In leadership, it's about helping others perform at their best. 00:09:03.600 --> 00:09:07.600 The best way to do that is to improve your mental game as well. 00:09:07.919 --> 00:09:14.159 So, in doing that, you warned Sebastian about goal-induced blindness. 00:09:14.559 --> 00:09:17.200 So, what is goal-induced blindness? 00:09:17.759 --> 00:09:20.879 I want, before I answer, to give a caveat. 00:09:21.440 --> 00:09:25.039 Measurable goals are very powerful and they work. 00:09:25.279 --> 00:09:34.080 They can align people, they can clarify what needs to be done, they can be very motivating. 00:09:35.039 --> 00:09:37.759 Measurable goals are effective. 00:09:38.240 --> 00:09:44.559 But like any strong medicine that's effective, they also have side effects. 00:09:44.879 --> 00:09:49.840 Goal-induced blindness is well documented in the psychology literature. 00:09:50.159 --> 00:10:02.240 It occurs when you're so focused on your goal, which almost always is a measurable goal, that you lose sight of any non-goal area in your life. 00:10:02.559 --> 00:10:08.159 It could be you're so focused on achieving your goals at work that you neglect your family. 00:10:08.559 --> 00:10:18.399 It could be you want to reach that goal so badly, the top of Everest, that you're going to sacrifice your own health and well-being to get there. 00:10:18.639 --> 00:10:22.000 You might also sacrifice your own sense of ethics. 00:10:22.240 --> 00:10:24.080 You might also start to cheat. 00:10:24.240 --> 00:10:29.039 These are all manifestations of

goal-induced blindness. 00:10:29.679 --> 00:10:40.080 In self-improvement, we often think it's about someone who's not performing well and getting them to perform to a certain level. 00:10:40.399 --> 00:10:42.000 That's interesting. 00:10:42.320 --> 00:10:47.919 But self-improvement is also about high performance, ultra high performance. 00:10:48.080 --> 00:10:54.879 I was talking last week with a portfolio manager about coaching, and I said, Would you be receptive to coaching? 00:10:55.200 --> 00:10:57.679 He looked at me and he said, Absolutely. 00:10:58.080 --> 00:11:00.559 Rafa Nadal has a coach. 00:11:00.799 --> 00:11:02.960 Why wouldn't I have a coach? 00:11:03.279 --> 00:11:11.200 But when you get to these high-performing, ultra-high performing levels, that's where goal-induced blindness occurs. 00:11:11.519 --> 00:11:21.039 I talk a lot about Mount Everest because it's used in the literature as an example of where goal-induced blindness tends to occur. 00:11:21.279 --> 00:11:26.559 If you want to reach a summit, out of every 100 people who will, four will die. 00:11:26.960 --> 00:11:29.120 That's what we're talking about on Mount Everest. 00:11:29.360 --> 00:11:31.200 If you've done it, kudos to you. 00:11:31.360 --> 00:11:35.360 But you have to step over frozen dead bodies to get to the top. 00:11:35.519 --> 00:11:38.879 That's the type of goal that people get obsessed with. 00:11:39.120 --> 00:11:44.720 And they suffer goal-induced blindness, and so it's documented around Mount Everest, but it's everywhere. 00:11:44.960 --> 00:11:46.960 That's exactly what I was wondering, Sebastian. 00:11:47.120 --> 00:11:59.200 There is always the yes, but, and then the rationale behind the reasoning for this goal-induced blindness. 00:11:59.519 --> 00:12:10.320 So, how do you recommend for people, Sebastian, to balance that in the real world as there are organizational demands? 00:12:10.480 --> 00:12:18.799 As you said, one of the values you bring to your insights is that you do have a boss, you do have an organization you're responsible for. 00:12:18.960 --> 00:12:25.440 How do you balance that with then not having the goals blind you? 00:12:25.840 --> 00:12:27.519 I want to be realistic. 00:12:27.759 --> 00:12:38.879 In a hyper competitive world, in the high performance echelons, there are moments where you might have to pull all-nighters to give maximal effort. 00:12:39.120 --> 00:12:41.360 And this can be in any job. 00:12:41.679 --> 00:12:44.080 So I want to be realistic about that. 00:12:44.399 --> 00:12:49.200 But I'm going to make a statement that I've made to my team repeatedly. 00:12:49.519 --> 00:12:55.840 A well-rested team will outperform an overworked competition any day. 00:12:56.159 --> 00:13:03.360 It's very clear in sports, delivering high performance requires periods of rest. 00:13:04.000 --> 00:13:09.759 And so to an executive who would say to you, Mahan, forget seven or eight hours of sleep. 00:13:10.000 --> 00:13:11.840 My competition is going to beat me. 00:13:12.080 --> 00:13:14.639 Maybe, maybe you have to do it for a couple of days. 00:13:14.720 --> 00:13:25.120 But if you think that's a requirement, you're just grinding down your health, fitness, your mental acuity, and your overall longer-term performance is going to be worse. 00:13:25.279 --> 00:13:29.600 Let's take Simone Biles, because I think that's a great sports example. 00:13:29.840 --> 00:13:33.759 Famously at the Tokyo Olympics, she walked out. 00:13:34.080 --> 00:13:36.720 We're talking about one of the top gymnasts in the world. 00:13:37.039 --> 00:13:38.720 Walked out of the Olympics. 00:13:38.960 --> 00:13:45.840 She had the twisties, which means in gymnasts' term, she couldn't figure out where she was in the air. 00:13:45.919 --> 00:13:49.679 And it was anxiety related and over-training related. 00:13:50.159 --> 00:13:54.639 She walked out and she was clear that it was for mental health reasons. 00:13:55.440 --> 00:14:04.080 Then the next part of that story speaks to goal-induced blindness and periods of rest. 00:14:04.480 --> 00:14:14.240 Over the following few months, famously because she was on Twitter, she would talk about how she was really happy to have slept eight hours. 00:14:14.399 --> 00:14:21.120 She would talk about how she had watched Netflix for an entire Sunday doing nothing. 00:14:21.360 --> 00:14:25.039 She had talked about how she would push back on her coaches. 00:14:25.279 --> 00:14:34.720 Now, she was still training very hard, but she learned to build rest and to work on mental fitness, just like you work on physical fitness. 00:14:35.039 --> 00:14:36.399 And then she came back. 00:14:36.559 --> 00:14:42.399 This was in 21, she came back in 23, and she won four gold medals. 00:14:42.960 --> 00:14:48.480 So Simone Biles became a better gymnast by building rest into her routines. 00:14:48.639 --> 00:14:50.320 Any top athlete knows this. 00:14:50.559 --> 00:14:55.120 That's what I would tell the big ego CEOs that say, I'm so important. 00:14:55.200 --> 00:14:59.679 This is so difficult, it's so competitive, I don't have time to sleep. 00:14:59.919 --> 00:15:06.480 It's not that impressive because you just lack of sleep, you know what it does to you? 00:15:06.639 --> 00:15:14.639 If you're on three or four hours of sleep and you're driving, you're basically as impaired as being over the drinking limit. 00:15:14.879 --> 00:15:16.480 That's what lack of sleep does to you. 00:15:16.639 --> 00:15:18.000 It destroys your immune system. 00:15:18.159 --> 00:15:24.879 You're gonna get, you're gonna get cold, you're gonna get flu, it destroys your mental balance, you're gonna get hungry, you're gonna overeat. 00:15:24.960 --> 00:15:26.000 It's not gonna work. 00:15:26.240 --> 00:15:34.480 With that glow-induced blindness that you talk about, Sebastian, having the wrong measures produces the wrong outcomes as well. 00:15:34.720 --> 00:15:45.279 Now, what I wonder is you also talk about

the importance of looking at the process rather than just results. 00:15:45.919 --> 00:15:56.399 How does that help us, both with respect to our goal setting, but also our leadership approach, focusing on process, not just results? 00:15:56.720 --> 00:15:58.159 I love that question. 00:15:58.399 --> 00:16:04.399 Let me add a little something about goal-induced blindness, and then I'll answer the process question. 00:16:04.720 --> 00:16:12.720 Over the weekend, I participated in a challenge to run or walk as many miles as possible. 00:16:13.120 --> 00:16:18.080 It was a group challenge, and everybody could see how many miles you were putting in. 00:16:18.240 --> 00:16:29.039 And Mahan, I did 34 miles on Friday, about 40% running, 60% walking, 34 miles on Saturday, and then I thought I need to do 100. 00:16:29.120 --> 00:16:31.519 So I did 32 on Sunday. 00:16:31.840 --> 00:16:33.679 I injured myself. 00:16:34.080 --> 00:16:36.080 I had goal in death blindness. 00:16:36.480 --> 00:16:39.120 Your podcast guest was pontificating. 00:16:39.279 --> 00:16:41.440 I had goal into I'm limping today. 00:16:41.519 --> 00:16:44.240 I got this shin split on my right shin, right? 00:16:44.879 --> 00:16:46.399 So we're all subject to that. 00:16:46.480 --> 00:16:50.879 I just wanted to add that on process, focusing on process. 00:16:51.039 --> 00:16:54.159 It's absolutely true that sometimes we set the wrong goals. 00:16:54.320 --> 00:17:01.919 Wells Fargo famously had a goal, a metric of how many accounts can you open? 00:17:02.240 --> 00:17:06.799 And they would measure and set targets on how many new bank accounts. 00:17:07.039 --> 00:17:08.160 So what happened? 00:17:08.400 --> 00:17:12.079 People started opening dummy accounts, like fake accounts. 00:17:12.240 --> 00:17:18.880 I remember they had a pretty good mortgage rate asking for a mortgage, and they were like, oh, your credit's outstanding. 00:17:18.960 --> 00:17:20.000 We'll give you the mortgage. 00:17:20.079 --> 00:17:21.440 But can you just open a bank account? 00:17:21.519 --> 00:17:22.799 I'm like, I don't need a bank account. 00:17:22.880 --> 00:17:24.559 No, you need to open a bank account. 00:17:24.799 --> 00:17:27.359 And so that the wrong goals. 00:17:27.599 --> 00:17:29.440 That leads us to the process. 00:17:29.599 --> 00:17:30.319 When I met Dr. 00:17:30.480 --> 00:17:40.400 Danielsim at the sports psychologist, he told me a fascinating story about the best handball match he ever played. 00:17:40.720 --> 00:17:47.759 It occurred 10 years prior, but he remembered every single thing about that match. 00:17:48.079 --> 00:17:53.119 Where the ball was at point number three, how it bounced off the wall. 00:17:53.440 --> 00:17:56.559 He's telling me this with so much passion. 00:17:56.880 --> 00:18:00.000 At one point in the story, he's on his knees. 00:18:00.319 --> 00:18:04.240 He makes a shot that's impossible, but he makes it. 00:18:04.400 --> 00:18:06.240 He never thought he would make it.

00:18:06.480 --> 00:18:12.319 People in the stand are screaming, the beer is flying, and I could tell the emotion is there. 00:18:12.400 --> 00:18:13.440 He's almost crying. 00:18:13.599 --> 00:18:15.599 It's almost like the tears in his eyes. 00:18:15.839 --> 00:18:27.200 But then there's a very strange letdown, at least for me, because he just very nonchalant says, and then I lost the next two points. 00:18:27.519 --> 00:18:29.599 And he actually lost the match. 00:18:29.680 --> 00:18:31.279 I thought best match he ever played. 00:18:31.359 --> 00:18:32.799 You remember everything about it. 00:18:32.960 --> 00:18:34.160 You lost it. 00:18:34.480 --> 00:18:45.839 That was his way of introducing to me the concept of sports psychology of differentiating between ego and mastery. 00:18:46.240 --> 00:18:51.519 For him that day, this was his best match because he was playing a much stronger opponent. 00:18:51.759 --> 00:18:57.119 And he realized that he was now able to play the game at a much higher level. 00:18:57.359 --> 00:19:06.559 So, from a process or mastery perspective, his game had improved drastically, and this match was the culmination of this. 00:19:06.720 --> 00:19:08.480 The score did not matter. 00:19:08.720 --> 00:19:12.960 Now, in sports, people have an ego orientation or obsessed with the score. 00:19:13.200 --> 00:19:18.319 They might get lucky or win ugly, and it doesn't matter because it's winning at all costs. 00:19:18.400 --> 00:19:21.119 And winning is great, and it's a great goal to have. 00:19:21.519 --> 00:19:26.240 But if you have the pure ego orientation, you forget about the importance of the process. 00:19:26.400 --> 00:19:37.359 And then the process is, instead of Wells Fargo saying, let's open as many bank accounts as possible, they would say something like, we got to get better at our sales process. 00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:43.279 What sales technique can we use to increase our closing rate? 00:19:43.599 --> 00:19:46.480 See how that's a little different mindset, right? 00:19:46.880 --> 00:19:48.480 In money management. 00:19:48.720 --> 00:19:50.400 Okay, I want to beat the markets. 00:19:50.480 --> 00:19:53.519 I want to make money for my client for sure. 00:19:53.759 --> 00:19:55.440 That's an important goal. 00:19:55.759 --> 00:19:57.359 But what about mastery? 00:19:57.519 --> 00:20:00.480 Are we getting better at research? 00:20:00.799 --> 00:20:05.359 Are we using AI to build an edge to beat the markets? 00:20:05.680 --> 00:20:07.920 That's a mastery question. 00:20:08.160 --> 00:20:09.920 All the way to nitty-gritty stuff. 00:20:10.000 --> 00:20:15.279 Like, are we running the meeting the right way so that we get the best ideas from everybody? 00:20:15.519 --> 00:20:17.839 That's a total mastery question. 00:20:18.079 --> 00:20:26.240 I'm arguing for a better balance between ego and mastery, between measurable goals and softer goals and processed goals. 00:20:26.400 --> 00:20:41.519 I'm not arguing for a black and white view of the world, but in general, especially in high-performing teams, we have more of an ego of a measurable goal orientation, and we could benefit from a mastery orientation. 00:20:41.759 --> 00:20:55.759 Rory Mekroy, last time he won the tournament, he was interviewed, and I loved it because he said every point I played, the entire tournament, I kept repeating to myself, your process, process, focus on your process. 00:20:56.000 --> 00:20:58.480 What a beautiful way of putting it, Sebastian. 00:20:58.559 --> 00:21:02.880 And as you're describing this, there are a couple of things that come to my mind. 00:21:03.440 --> 00:21:16.559 Traditionally, that focus on mastery and process has been a tiny bit more Eastern, and the pure outcome orientation has been a little bit more Western. 00:21:17.200 --> 00:21:23.839 What you're saying is it's not one or the other, and I couldn't agree with you more. 00:21:24.240 --> 00:21:29.519 It's an understanding and it's a balance that is required. 00:21:29.680 --> 00:21:32.799 One without the other doesn't work. 00:21:32.960 --> 00:21:37.359 And I think it's as important for individuals as it is for organizations. 00:21:37.839 --> 00:21:49.599 The other thing you mentioned that I want to underline also reminds me of Annie Duke, the world champion of poker, studied psychology as well. 00:21:50.000 --> 00:21:53.519 Outstanding book Thinking in Bets. 00:21:54.160 --> 00:21:59.680 And she talks about resulting, which is we look at a result. 00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:06.480 And assume the process or the decisions that led to the result were right. 00:22:07.359 --> 00:22:19.920 Or if the result wasn't good, as in the handball game, we assume that the process and the decisions that led to it, there must have been something wrong with it. 00:22:20.160 --> 00:22:26.480 And the point she makes is we need to learn from the process and the decision making, not just the result. 00:22:26.880 --> 00:22:34.960 So those are outstanding ways for us to view our own leadership and organizational decision making. 00:22:35.200 --> 00:22:45.440 The other thing is you challenge us to interrogate success as aggressively as we interrogate failure. 00:22:45.759 --> 00:22:53.039 On Annie Duke and her work on resulting, which I agree with you, Mahan, it's excellent. 00:22:53.359 --> 00:23:01.599 If you win, if you have a good outcome, but you didn't really do a good job, you just got lucky. 00:23:01.839 --> 00:23:05.680 It's very difficult to be self-aware enough. 00:23:06.000 --> 00:23:14.160 There was a moment recently in the World Cup soccer where they interviewed the England coach, and he was very down in there, just won. 00:23:14.319 --> 00:23:16.559 And he said, we played horribly. 00:23:16.799 --> 00:23:20.079 And he was criticized all over social media. 00:23:20.400 --> 00:23:21.279 But I get it. 00:23:21.519 --> 00:23:22.559 He was not resulting. 00:23:22.880 --> 00:23:26.640 He looked at the process and they got lucky and

they won. 00:23:26.880 --> 00:23:32.559 Just to put a big exclamation point on this, let's do a theoretical experiment, Mahan, you and me. 00:23:32.640 --> 00:23:45.200 Let's say we go out to dinner and we have a bottle of wine each, which is way too much alcohol, and I decide to drive home and I make it home safely. 00:23:45.440 --> 00:23:48.240 Should I conclude that this was a good decision? 00:23:48.480 --> 00:23:48.799 No. 00:23:49.039 --> 00:23:53.039 It was a horrible decision, but it was a good outcome. 00:23:53.200 --> 00:23:58.079 Now, let's say you get in an Uber and the Uber driver crashes. 00:23:58.319 --> 00:24:00.720 Should you conclude that you made the wrong decision? 00:24:01.039 --> 00:24:02.880 No, you made the right decision. 00:24:02.960 --> 00:24:04.559 It was just a bad outcome. 00:24:04.880 --> 00:24:10.000 So you have to interrogate your wins, you have to interrogate your losses. 00:24:10.319 --> 00:24:20.319 Human nature, and this applies to athletes and to business decisions, is such that when we get it right, we think we're smart. 00:24:20.799 --> 00:24:25.920 And when we get it wrong, maybe we think we're unlucky. 00:24:26.160 --> 00:24:26.480 Right? 00:24:26.720 --> 00:24:34.559 There's a mentor in business who told me there are only two types of money managers, those who are talented and those who are unlucky. 00:24:34.640 --> 00:24:37.119 You'll never find another kind of investor, right? 00:24:37.440 --> 00:24:39.519 Never find an untalented investor. 00:24:40.240 --> 00:24:42.400 So it takes self-awareness. 00:24:42.880 --> 00:24:44.799 But the prize, why would you do that? 00:24:45.039 --> 00:24:46.880 Just for fun, just to torture yourself? 00:24:47.119 --> 00:24:47.440 No. 00:24:47.759 --> 00:24:53.440 The prize is that you will build an edge in decision making under uncertainty. 00:24:53.680 --> 00:24:56.880 And Mahan, you have a business audience. 00:24:57.119 --> 00:24:58.640 What do people who listen to this? 00:24:58.720 --> 00:24:59.599 What do they do every day? 00:24:59.759 --> 00:25:02.000 They make decisions under uncertainty. 00:25:02.240 --> 00:25:07.680 If you can get better at that, you're just going to be better in your business. 00:25:07.920 --> 00:25:13.119 It's difficult making decisions under uncertainty, but that's the price. 00:25:13.279 --> 00:25:18.240 That's why you interrogate your wins, you interrogate your losses, you think about your process. 00:25:18.960 --> 00:25:20.640 And it's hard. 00:25:21.039 --> 00:25:28.400 It requires vulnerability, but once you get it into your routine, you'll see that your decisions will improve. 00:25:28.559 --> 00:25:32.160 There's research that was made on super forecasters. 00:25:32.400 --> 00:25:41.680 So they had a bunch of people do forecasting about everything politics, like election results, or economics, or financial markets. 00:25:41.839 --> 00:25:47.039 And they identified this small group of people that were really good at forecasting. 00:25:47.359 --> 00:25:50.799 And then they said, okay, what makes these people different? 00:25:51.039 --> 00:26:02.720 And part of it, not all of it, but part of it, was the ability to evaluate their wins and losses, this vulnerability, this ability to change your mind in the face of new evidence. 00:26:02.880 --> 00:26:10.880 I use your phrase, which I love, to interrogate your successes as aggressively as you interrogate your losses. 00:26:11.359 --> 00:26:15.359 That takes some of the humility that you were talking about, Sebastian. 00:26:15.680 --> 00:26:30.720 How do you make sure that you both interrogate the process, but in essence interrogate yourself to make sure you maintain as an executive as small of a blind spot as possible? 00:26:33.279 --> 00:26:38.000 So feedback, especially if it's synonymous, can be helpful. 00:26:38.880 --> 00:26:44.240 But I want to give something to our audience that's way simpler than that and that works. 00:26:45.119 --> 00:26:52.960 I'm gonna give you two very short sentences that you as a leader should think about using. 00:26:53.039 --> 00:26:55.920 And I guarantee you most of our audience doesn't use it. 00:26:56.000 --> 00:26:59.279 And if I'm not careful, I won't use them myself. 00:26:59.839 --> 00:27:04.640 And find occasions to use them over the next week and see how it feels. 00:27:05.519 --> 00:27:13.680 The first sentence in front of your team, and by the way, no one gets everything right, so it's a normal sentence to use. 00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:20.720 As a leader, are you able to say I was wrong in front of your team? 00:27:21.039 --> 00:27:23.519 Because I guarantee you you're not always right. 00:27:23.680 --> 00:27:26.240 But how often do you say, I got this wrong? 00:27:26.400 --> 00:27:27.759 And you don't need to leave it at that. 00:27:27.839 --> 00:27:31.440 You can say, here's why, and here's what we're gonna do, and here's what. 00:27:31.759 --> 00:27:32.799 I was wrong. 00:27:32.960 --> 00:27:34.720 How often do you hear that? 00:27:34.960 --> 00:27:41.200 That's a powerful way to very counterintuitively, Mahan, show confidence. 00:27:41.440 --> 00:27:45.440 By saying I was wrong, it feels like you're showing weakness. 00:27:45.680 --> 00:27:48.160 No, you're showing confidence. 00:27:48.480 --> 00:27:50.640 And the other one is similar. 00:27:50.880 --> 00:27:59.279 And this is hard for me, especially because I often get interviewed on live national TV, including tomorrow morning on CNBC as we record this. 00:27:59.519 --> 00:28:07.119 I haven't said it on live national TV yet, but as a leader, are you able to say very clearly, I don't know? 00:28:07.599 --> 00:28:14.160 Someone asks you something, are you able to say, I don't know, instead of trying to make up an answer and you know what? 00:28:14.240 --> 00:28:15.200 I don't know. 00:28:15.440 --> 00:28:17.920 And leave a pregnant pause after it. 00:28:18.240 --> 00:28:22.319 These help, I think, with avoiding these blind spots.

00:28:22.400 --> 00:28:34.319 And as you climb, it's true that as you climb the hierarchy in an organization, people won't really tell you those things about feedback if you can ask for it proactively. 00:28:34.480 --> 00:28:40.799 Research shows that it's much less stressful to receive feedback if you actually ask for it. 00:28:41.039 --> 00:28:48.079 Some of the top leaders I've worked with actually will come to you and say, Hey, how did I do in that sales presentation? 00:28:48.319 --> 00:28:50.319 Anything I should be doing different next time. 00:28:50.720 --> 00:28:54.880 Asking for feedback is a very simple, powerful tool. 00:28:55.200 --> 00:28:55.519 Dr. 00:28:55.680 --> 00:29:00.319 David Rock, he's a pioneer of a field called neuroleadership. 00:29:00.559 --> 00:29:06.240 He hooked people up to sensors, like measuring your heart rate and other stress responses. 00:29:06.400 --> 00:29:08.640 And then he had people give and receive feedback. 00:29:08.720 --> 00:29:21.200 And he realized that if the person asked for the feedback, the stress response for the giver and the receiver, the stress responses were both 50% lower just by the process of asking for it. 00:29:21.599 --> 00:29:23.599 Three incredible pieces of advice. 00:29:23.839 --> 00:29:31.039 One, ask for that feedback, reduces the stress for you and the person giving you the feedback. 00:29:31.200 --> 00:29:33.759 There can be value to that. 00:29:34.720 --> 00:29:37.920 I don't know, and I was wrong. 00:29:38.160 --> 00:29:47.599 And you're absolutely right, where we all have situations, circumstances on an ongoing basis where we could do that. 00:29:47.920 --> 00:29:57.039 But some of the traditional thinking we've had on leadership and how leaders should behave doesn't lend itself to that. 00:29:57.359 --> 00:30:03.359 Now, you also use, Sebastian, Martin Seligman's perma model. 00:30:04.160 --> 00:30:10.559 And you argue that we often use the wrong definition of success. 00:30:11.039 --> 00:30:16.240 In your view, what are we getting wrong with our definition and approach to success? 00:30:16.559 --> 00:30:18.480 We think short term. 00:30:19.039 --> 00:30:23.599 And positive psychology forces us to think long term. 00:30:24.160 --> 00:30:28.880 Positive psychology is about what makes people thrive in their lives. 00:30:29.200 --> 00:30:34.240 Seligman famously has a model called PERMA, P-E-R-M-A. 00:30:34.640 --> 00:30:39.680 The P is positive emotions, and that's what we seek day-to-day. 00:30:40.000 --> 00:30:41.119 And you know what? 00:30:41.200 --> 00:30:44.799 The reality of life is that negative emotions are there too. 00:30:45.039 --> 00:30:46.720 And you can't suppress them. 00:30:46.880 --> 00:30:48.960 It's part of the human condition. 00:30:49.519 --> 00:30:56.160 Irma, E-R-M-A, is where it gets interesting and where you start thinking longer term. 00:30:56.559 --> 00:31:04.559 Engagement, relationships, meaning, and long-term accomplishment. 00:31:05.119 --> 00:31:05.839 Irma. 00:31:06.559 --> 00:31:15.119 Seligman, the father of positive psychology, has found that people thrive in the long run when they're engaged in their work. 00:31:15.440 --> 00:31:20.480 70% of Americans right now would answer I'm not engaged in my work in surveys. 00:31:21.599 --> 00:31:26.880 Sebastian, let me jump in there because I want you to expand on each one of them. 00:31:27.359 --> 00:31:33.279 I wonder why has there been very little to no progress in that? 00:31:33.440 --> 00:31:39.119 I think I probably saw Gallup doing that survey in early 2000s. 00:31:39.200 --> 00:31:40.880 I'm not sure exactly the date. 00:31:41.200 --> 00:31:46.400 But if you look at it, it's gone up a couple of points, it's gone down a couple of points. 00:31:46.559 --> 00:32:03.359 But in essence, with the billions of dollars that we spend on leadership development, training, all these different initiatives, that engagement piece that I want to understand before we go to the others hasn't moved. 00:32:03.839 --> 00:32:04.720 How come? 00:32:05.359 --> 00:32:32.079 Daniel Pink, who's a great author, focuses on psychology, would say we've focused so much on the extrinsic rewards, the monetary, the bonus, the salary, that counterintuitively we've made the we're signaling by giving very measurable rewards and looking at money and extrinsic things. 00:32:32.160 --> 00:32:36.880 But by the way, money is really important and it's a great goal to have to make money. 00:32:37.039 --> 00:32:47.119 But what he's saying is we don't realize that by doing that, we implicitly send the signal that the work is not that valuable in itself. 00:32:47.599 --> 00:33:00.319 So it's a lack of intrinsic motivation for the work, which counterintuitively comes from, according to Daniel Pink, at least, the fact that we give too much emphasis on the extrinsic rewards. 00:33:00.880 --> 00:33:04.480 So what makes one intrinsically motivated? 00:33:04.720 --> 00:33:09.119 Something you want to do, anyways, like this podcast, Mahan. 00:33:09.680 --> 00:33:12.480 I'm not making any money from this podcast. 00:33:12.720 --> 00:33:20.319 I'm doing this at the end of a workday where I'm otherwise tired, but I'm super intrinsically motivated to do it. 00:33:20.640 --> 00:33:21.839 The same thing with my books. 00:33:21.920 --> 00:33:23.440 I'm not making money with this psychologist. 00:33:23.680 --> 00:33:27.839 It's selling well, but it's not making books aren't profitable, really. 00:33:28.079 --> 00:33:30.079 So it's intrinsic motivation. 00:33:30.240 --> 00:33:31.759 And that's, I think, what's lacking. 00:33:31.920 --> 00:33:34.720 That's why the surveys keep coming out very badly. 00:33:34.960 --> 00:33:39.599 And for intrinsic motivation, I think you start looking to the other parts. 00:33:39.920 --> 00:33:42.079 There are positive relationships. 00:33:42.240 --> 00:33:44.880 I think it's much more fun to go to work. 00:33:45.200 --> 00:33:53.519 It's not about kumbaya and

holding hands every day, but when you have positive relationships built on trust and mutual respect. 00:33:53.680 --> 00:34:00.480 And we got to examine that as one of the reasons why people aren't intrinsically motivated to work. 00:34:00.559 --> 00:34:02.799 They're probably a relationship aspect. 00:34:02.960 --> 00:34:05.039 How do we handle feedback and so on? 00:34:05.359 --> 00:34:11.599 The meaning, people pontificate a lot about meaning, but it really matters if you have meaning in your work. 00:34:11.840 --> 00:34:14.480 I'll just wrap up my answer with this, Mahan. 00:34:14.639 --> 00:34:21.360 I think it'll bring the point home why the surveys are not showing any improvement in engagement at work. 00:34:21.599 --> 00:34:26.800 It's the bricklayer analogy that I talk about in the psychology of leadership. 00:34:27.119 --> 00:34:30.320 An architect walks to three bricklayers. 00:34:30.480 --> 00:34:32.320 They're doing the exact same job. 00:34:32.559 --> 00:34:35.840 He asks the first bricklayer, What are you doing? 00:34:36.079 --> 00:34:38.480 The first bricklayer is tired. 00:34:39.199 --> 00:34:44.559 He answers, I am laying bricks, I hate it, it's stirring. 00:34:45.039 --> 00:34:49.199 The second bricklayer is working a little bit faster. 00:34:49.760 --> 00:34:52.639 He answers, I'm a wall builder. 00:34:52.800 --> 00:34:54.400 I'm building a wall. 00:34:54.880 --> 00:34:59.119 And there's a bit more satisfaction and therefore engagement and energy. 00:34:59.760 --> 00:35:07.760 The third bricklayer is ahead of the other two, is smiling, is energized. 00:35:08.880 --> 00:35:10.719 They're doing the same job. 00:35:10.880 --> 00:35:14.719 But that third bricklayer answers, I am a cathedral builder. 00:35:14.800 --> 00:35:18.480 I'm building this awesome ode to the Almighty. 00:35:18.800 --> 00:35:22.239 We're talking about three people doing the exact same job. 00:35:22.639 --> 00:35:24.639 Very different sense of meaning. 00:35:24.800 --> 00:35:28.719 And the meaning comes from understanding how you contribute to the broader goal. 00:35:28.880 --> 00:35:32.000 In my work, I could go to three analysts working on a spreadsheet. 00:35:32.159 --> 00:35:34.960 The first one could say, Oh, I'm just fixing this spreadsheet. 00:35:35.039 --> 00:35:35.840 This is boring. 00:35:36.079 --> 00:35:40.800 The second one, more engaged, could say, I'm finding ways to beat the markets. 00:35:40.960 --> 00:35:41.840 It's kind of fun. 00:35:42.079 --> 00:35:53.199 The third one, super motivated, might be saying, I'm going to make money for a bunch of people, like hundreds of thousands or millions of people, and they're going to get better retirements. 00:35:53.360 --> 00:35:54.800 That's what I'm working on. 00:35:55.039 --> 00:35:59.280 The three of them are doing the same job, different levels of engagement. 00:35:59.679 --> 00:36:05.280 Makes a big difference for everyone in the organizations. 00:36:05.519 --> 00:36:30.320 The challenge that I

see, Sebastian, is how leaders who, in many instances, understand that conceptually and intellectually and have versions of purpose statements written up on walls and on websites conveyed in a way that people feel that sense of purpose rather than something that is just communicated. 00:36:30.400 --> 00:36:41.280 So a lot of organizations now have that, a lot of leaders now say that, but obviously people aren't feeling that sense of connection the way you're talking about it. 00:36:41.440 --> 00:36:42.480 One is that purpose. 00:36:42.559 --> 00:36:46.000 You also mentioned the relationships that are critical to that. 00:36:46.239 --> 00:37:03.280 So I wonder, Sebastian, one of the things that is impacting leadership, some of the human interactions, some of the engagement, part of what you have talked about in the book is the advancement of technology. 00:37:03.519 --> 00:37:15.519 And I wonder how you see technology playing a role in leadership and how we need to adjust our leadership based on the technology. 00:37:15.840 --> 00:37:18.639 I see advantages and I see risks. 00:37:19.119 --> 00:37:32.079 I was in Asia recently and met with a colleague in Hong Kong, and they said my written English is not very good, but he's a very good analyst. 00:37:32.639 --> 00:37:38.400 And he goes, I used to spend so much time fixing my English in my research notes. 00:37:38.800 --> 00:37:44.719 And now I can do more work, and my research notes are much better, and everybody's happy. 00:37:44.960 --> 00:37:47.280 So there are real advantages. 00:37:47.440 --> 00:37:49.840 There's no more writer's block anymore. 00:37:50.000 --> 00:37:55.199 You can just ask AI to complete what you've started, and that'll give you a bunch of ideas. 00:37:55.440 --> 00:37:57.199 But I also see risks. 00:37:57.519 --> 00:38:04.320 Mahan, before we started the podcast, you and I talked for a few seconds. 00:38:04.559 --> 00:38:08.800 And I asked you some questions about how you want me to answer questions. 00:38:09.039 --> 00:38:13.760 And you said, Sebastian, we're having a conversation. 00:38:14.239 --> 00:38:15.519 It's you and Mahan. 00:38:15.760 --> 00:38:18.800 You almost have to forget that there's an audience. 00:38:19.039 --> 00:38:20.480 Why did you say that? 00:38:20.719 --> 00:38:23.840 I think you can correct me if you think I'm wrong. 00:38:24.000 --> 00:38:27.760 You said that because you wanted us to have an authentic discussion. 00:38:28.079 --> 00:38:28.559 Absolutely. 00:38:28.800 --> 00:38:33.199 I worry with AI that we lose authenticity. 00:38:33.440 --> 00:38:40.480 I worry with the mission statements, back to what we were talking a minute ago, that we lack authenticity. 00:38:40.719 --> 00:38:43.840 This is the meaning of what we do, but it's just a bunch of words. 00:38:44.079 --> 00:38:50.719 There's a show called Silicon Valley where the entrepreneurs go on stage and they pitch their company and it's all technical stuff. 00:38:50.800 --> 00:38:54.639 But

at the end of the pitch, they also say, Oh, and we want to make the world a better place. 00:38:54.800 --> 00:38:59.840 We're fixing the speed of data transfers, and then they go, to make the world a better place. 00:39:00.239 --> 00:39:02.639 So when you talk about meaning, you have to mean it. 00:39:02.719 --> 00:39:05.920 I have this story in the book, The Psychology of Leadership. 00:39:06.079 --> 00:39:07.840 But authenticity is a problem. 00:39:08.079 --> 00:39:17.199 It bugs me when I see something on social media or when someone sends me an email and it says, This is not X, it's Y. 00:39:17.679 --> 00:39:29.280 The contrast that's always written by AI, or it has a I can recognize sentences and I can pretty much recognize AI writing. 00:39:29.599 --> 00:39:30.800 It bugs me. 00:39:31.039 --> 00:39:33.280 It just doesn't feel authentic. 00:39:33.519 --> 00:39:38.159 And the world craves authenticity, I think, now more than ever. 00:39:38.639 --> 00:39:44.960 So we have to keep our humanity and our authenticity and like we have right now, have real conversations. 00:39:45.360 --> 00:39:50.320 Instead of having this conversation today, you could have sent me a list of questions. 00:39:50.400 --> 00:39:59.280 I could have run them through AI and said, look at the psychology of leadership, craft some answers, and then you would have received the report. 00:39:59.440 --> 00:40:01.360 It would have looked pretty good, pretty clean. 00:40:01.519 --> 00:40:02.719 What would you have done? 00:40:02.960 --> 00:40:05.519 You would have used AI to summarize it. 00:40:06.159 --> 00:40:13.760 So now my AI is talking to your AI, and we're not having this fun discussion where we laugh and talk about leadership. 00:40:13.920 --> 00:40:17.440 So I don't want our society to lose that authenticity. 00:40:18.239 --> 00:40:32.960 As we are surrounded with more of those inauthentic interactions, Sebastian, the role of that human leadership and the relationship building that you talk about, all the aspects that you mentioned becomes even more important. 00:40:33.440 --> 00:40:50.880 Then to your point, one of the senior executives at Microsoft that said something funny, which is so true, said, now we've gotten to the point where CEOs take three bullet points, give it to AI to come up with a 10-page report or document to send to their employees. 00:40:51.039 --> 00:40:58.960 Then their employees upload it to AI to get three bullet points summary of what the CEO sent to them. 00:40:59.360 --> 00:41:00.480 That's a good example. 00:41:00.719 --> 00:41:05.519 So a couple of other questions for you, Sebastian, before we wrap up. 00:41:05.840 --> 00:41:12.639 You spent four years really immersing yourself in the psychology. 00:41:13.039 --> 00:41:15.440 You've studied it, you wrote about it. 00:41:15.679 --> 00:41:20.239 I wonder if there is anything you changed your mind about. 00:41:20.559 --> 00:41:28.960 A lot of things, but I'll give you a major one that had a big

impact on my life, my professional life, and my personal life. 00:41:29.199 --> 00:41:38.159 There's a concept in sports psychology that maps performance to your stress level. 00:41:39.199 --> 00:41:50.239 It was a revelation to me to realize that optimal functioning, optimal performance does not occur at a stress level of zero. 00:41:51.519 --> 00:42:05.440 So up to a point, as your activation increases, as you get a little bit anxious about something, your performance in sports or cognitive tasks increases. 00:42:06.960 --> 00:42:24.239 So walking around day to day trying to bring your stress to zero is completely counterproductive because feeling stress is part of the human condition, but also because stress, or as sports psychologists would like to reframe it, activation helps you focus. 00:42:24.639 --> 00:42:30.000 It prepares you to fight or to run away, but it helps you focus. 00:42:30.159 --> 00:42:36.880 It prepares you, it increases the blood flow, it prepares you for a stronger athletic performance. 00:42:37.039 --> 00:42:47.039 If you and I'm a hunter standing at the start line and we have to run a hundred-meter dash and you're anxious about it, and you've got adrenaline going. 00:42:47.519 --> 00:42:51.519 If we're exactly the same speed in normal conditions, you're going to beat me. 00:42:51.760 --> 00:43:01.920 If your surgeon is going to do surgery on you, you want them to be a little nervous about how it's going to go because it increases their focus, their preparation. 00:43:02.000 --> 00:43:03.920 They're going to triple check the scan. 00:43:04.079 --> 00:43:06.800 And when they do the maneuver, they're going to be on. 00:43:07.760 --> 00:43:09.679 So it kind of was a revelation. 00:43:09.760 --> 00:43:13.039 You remember I was telling myself I was too stressed. 00:43:14.159 --> 00:43:15.280 Two layers, right? 00:43:15.440 --> 00:43:16.480 Stop being so stressed. 00:43:16.559 --> 00:43:19.920 You've been doing this for 25 years, stressing about stressing. 00:43:20.079 --> 00:43:22.960 You can take that away once you realize that. 00:43:23.199 --> 00:43:27.440 Okay, that was a revelation, and it was really important for me. 00:43:27.599 --> 00:43:29.440 It's important for organizations, right? 00:43:29.599 --> 00:43:34.880 You want to calibrate the right level of pressure you put on the team, for example, or with the goals. 00:43:35.280 --> 00:43:38.000 Now, I've said all this. 00:43:38.320 --> 00:43:46.000 I'm sure there are people in the audience right now listening to this that are screaming, dude, I'm stressed enough, right? 00:43:46.320 --> 00:43:55.519 Because it is true that stress, once you pass that point of optimal functioning, is incredibly bad for you. 00:43:55.760 --> 00:44:04.480 It'll change your appetite, your sleep, your, again, your immune system, your sex drive, your everything, your concentration. 00:44:04.559 --> 00:44:07.199 It'll kill you ultimately, chronic stress. 00:44:07.360 --> 00:44:14.400 So I want to be clear that I'm not dismissing the negative effects of extreme or chronic stress. 00:44:15.119 --> 00:44:17.760 But at the same time, what a takeaway. 00:44:17.920 --> 00:44:20.960 Optimal performance doesn't occur at a stress level of zero. 00:44:21.039 --> 00:44:22.559 Stop beating yourself up. 00:44:22.800 --> 00:44:30.000 Embrace it, turn it into excitement, channel it, and see it as fuel for performance. 00:44:30.480 --> 00:44:33.199 That's a beautiful lesson to learn. 00:44:33.360 --> 00:44:38.079 And the sports analogy holds perfectly with respect to that. 00:44:38.320 --> 00:44:45.679 Now, I wonder, Sebastian, what are you still trying to get better at yourself? 00:44:46.400 --> 00:44:47.679 Everything. 00:44:49.039 --> 00:44:51.199 It's the mastery mindset. 00:44:51.440 --> 00:44:54.079 I want to get better at how I run meetings. 00:44:54.239 --> 00:44:58.000 I want to get better at having difficult one-on-one conversations. 00:44:58.159 --> 00:45:01.760 I want to get better at painting a vision for the organization. 00:45:01.920 --> 00:45:03.199 We can always get better. 00:45:03.280 --> 00:45:06.320 This goes back to the portfolio manager who told me last week. 00:45:06.480 --> 00:45:07.679 Absolutely, I want to coach. 00:45:07.840 --> 00:45:10.079 Rafa Nadal has a coach. 00:45:10.480 --> 00:45:12.000 Roger Federer had a coach. 00:45:12.159 --> 00:45:13.440 An Ragassi had a coach. 00:45:13.519 --> 00:45:16.639 I don't know why I'm picking on tennis players, but you get my drift. 00:45:16.880 --> 00:45:17.920 So everything, Ma. 00:45:18.480 --> 00:45:20.639 I think that's what keeps us engaged. 00:45:20.800 --> 00:45:22.239 Going back to engagement, too. 00:45:22.320 --> 00:45:26.239 The ability to learn and improve will keep you more engaged. 00:45:26.559 --> 00:45:27.199 Absolutely. 00:45:27.360 --> 00:45:29.679 And that's one of the reasons I love these conversations. 00:45:29.760 --> 00:45:42.079 And I love my podcast listeners as well, Sebastian, because they are the kind of people who seek insights to learn from and grow. 00:45:42.400 --> 00:45:48.639 For them to follow your work, find your book, where would you send them to? 00:45:48.960 --> 00:45:53.599 For the book I'd go on Amazon as The Psychology of Leadership by Sebastian Page. 00:45:53.760 --> 00:46:01.199 And these days I write a story every Sunday on Substack, SebastianPage.substack.com. 00:46:01.599 --> 00:46:13.920 I so appreciate the conversation, Sebastian, and your book, The Psychology of Leadership: Timeless Principles to Improve Your Management of Individuals, Teams, and Yourself. 00:46:14.079 --> 00:46:16.000 Thank you so much, Sebastian Page. 00:46:16.480 --> 00:46:17.519 Thank you, Mahan. 00:46:19.119 --> 00:46:23.440 You have been listening to Partnering Leadership with your host, Mahan Tavakoli. 00:46:23.920 --> 00:46:39.519 If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a rating and review of the podcast on your favorite podcasting app and forward the conversation to a friend or colleague so you can help more people discover their purpose, grow professionally with meaning, and have a greater impact. 00:46:39.679 --> 00:46:45.840 For additional leadership insights and bonus content, visit us at partneringleadership.com.