התמלול המלא של 475 Leading Under Pressure: Lessons from 9/11, the NFL, and the World's Toughest Decisions with Thom Mayer

but the sports experience. 00:02:18.879 --> 00:02:29.120 Yeah, very much because it really gives you such an opportunity to be physical, to learn new things, to learn to adapt for success and failure. 00:02:29.360 --> 00:02:32.319 So they're all involved in sports of different types. 00:02:32.479 --> 00:02:36.639 Our oldest granddaughter is a highly accomplished figure skater. 00:02:36.879 --> 00:02:41.599 Our second granddaughter, Audra, is an Irish dancer of some talent. 00:02:41.759 --> 00:02:46.479 Clara is a volleyball player this time of year and soccer player in the fall. 00:02:46.639 --> 00:02:53.599 And Ryan, who's the youngest, just loves soccer, T-ball, a game which my father invented, as it turns out. 00:02:53.759 --> 00:02:56.159 So it's always a joy to see him doing those things. 00:02:56.400 --> 00:02:57.439 Oh, that's incredible. 00:02:57.599 --> 00:02:58.319 Tell me about that. 00:02:58.400 --> 00:03:01.199 How did your father get involved in T-ball? 00:03:01.439 --> 00:03:12.240 Pop was a tanker in Patton's Third Army and tank maintenance, kept them running and put them back in service, and came back and owned an automobile business. 00:03:12.400 --> 00:03:17.759 And he was the president of the little league that I played in, but you'll enjoy this. 00:03:17.919 --> 00:03:26.000 He refused to do that until I was out of little league, so that no one could accuse him of playing favorites or anything like that. 00:03:26.319 --> 00:03:34.479 And in those days we had major leagues and minor leagues, but the little kids didn't have anything to do, and yet they were hanging out at the ballpark all the time. 00:03:34.719 --> 00:03:47.199 So he literally took a piece of stainless steel tube, welded it to a triangular plate, took a radiator hose, heated it up, and flanged it out so that it would hold a ball. 00:03:47.439 --> 00:03:49.599 And that's how T-Ball got started. 00:03:49.759 --> 00:03:55.599 The first game was supposed to have three teams, and word spread through the neighborhood. 00:03:55.680 --> 00:03:59.439 So everyone was, all the little kids were coming up, pulling on his pants, going, Mr. 00:03:59.520 --> 00:04:00.240 Mayor, can I play? 00:04:00.400 --> 00:04:00.560 Mr. 00:04:00.639 --> 00:04:01.680 Mayor, can I play? 00:04:01.840 --> 00:04:07.919 So before the first game even got played that day, there were seven teams, and that's just gone from there. 00:04:08.000 --> 00:04:10.319 Now he didn't patent it or anything like that. 00:04:10.479 --> 00:04:19.360 But there is an exhibit at Little League World Series Hall of Fame in Williamsport that includes him and several other guys who did it in different parts of the country. 00:04:19.600 --> 00:04:20.560 Oh, outstanding. 00:04:20.720 --> 00:04:21.759 What an amazing story. 00:04:21.920 --> 00:04:25.600 We could spend an entire podcast talking about that experience. 00:04:25.759 --> 00:04:33.040 Now, Tom, you titled the book and also open up with leadership is worthless, but

leading is priceless. 00:04:33.199 --> 00:04:35.759 How do you differentiate between leadership and leading? 00:04:36.079 --> 00:04:40.000 It came to me through the course of having led from the front lines. 00:04:40.399 --> 00:04:44.399 And so it wasn't book learning, it was practical aspects. 00:04:44.560 --> 00:04:46.959 That said, I read a tremendous amount. 00:04:47.040 --> 00:04:50.079 Like you, I'm a voracious leader, a reader. 00:04:50.399 --> 00:04:56.800 But what struck me was there's over 50,000 books on Amazon alone that have leadership in the title. 00:04:56.959 --> 00:05:06.079 If you ask ChatGPT about leadership, it blows its electronic mind because it says there's tens of millions of articles about leadership. 00:05:06.240 --> 00:05:12.639 And yet, if I ask an audience, I do a lot of speaking, if I ask an audience, how many of you have read a book on leadership? 00:05:12.800 --> 00:05:14.000 Everyone raises their hand. 00:05:14.160 --> 00:05:18.639 If I say what did it say, I get a blank look a lot of the times. 00:05:18.879 --> 00:05:25.360 So it led me to the understanding that leadership is worthless because it's just what you say. 00:05:25.680 --> 00:05:30.319 And anyone can say anything, and they often do, ad nausea. 00:05:30.560 --> 00:05:37.920 And yet, leading is priceless because it's what we do all day, every day, every single person. 00:05:38.399 --> 00:05:50.879 So when I talked to an audience, I spoke a couple weeks ago to about a thousand CEOs from different places, and I said to them, every single mother is every bit as much a leader as you are. 00:05:51.199 --> 00:05:52.079 And they got that. 00:05:52.160 --> 00:06:02.639 They understood it wasn't offensive to them in any way because we really need teams of leaders, we need armies of leaders, we need organizations, we need neighborhoods full of leaders. 00:06:02.879 --> 00:06:08.480 And for people to understand that has some pretty significant downstream implications. 00:06:09.199 --> 00:06:11.199 I really appreciate that perspective, Tom. 00:06:11.439 --> 00:06:23.040 What you were saying is that in every role you play, you can be a leader, and that is through the actions, not through the words. 00:06:23.519 --> 00:06:26.000 Not to wordsmith, but it's not that they can be. 00:06:27.199 --> 00:06:28.800 They are already a leader. 00:06:29.040 --> 00:06:35.439 So three insights, if they are insights, every team member of every team is a leader. 00:06:35.600 --> 00:06:37.439 Lead yourself, lead your team. 00:06:37.600 --> 00:06:49.040 Number two, every team member is a performance athlete, no different than my 2,500 athletes in the National Football League, involved in a cycle of performance, rest, and recovery. 00:06:49.279 --> 00:06:51.519 Performance, rest, and recovery. 00:06:51.680 --> 00:06:55.519 And we've neglected rest and recovery too much in our lives. 00:06:55.759 --> 00:06:58.399 And the third is the work begins with them. 00:06:58.639 --> 00:07:03.839 And we have to start within ourselves to understand that the leader you're looking for is you. 00:07:04.079 --> 00:07:05.600 Just look in the mirror. 00:07:05.839 --> 00:07:12.560 The term, in my estimation, we have to abandon the worthless, wispful word someday. 00:07:12.800 --> 00:07:14.560 Someday I'll be a leader. 00:07:14.879 --> 00:07:17.439 No, today you are a leader. 00:07:17.600 --> 00:07:18.879 That's not a question. 00:07:19.040 --> 00:07:27.120 When you swing your legs out in the morning and touch terra firm ground on which we walk, you say to yourself, today I am a leader. 00:07:27.279 --> 00:07:30.000 The only question is how will I be? 00:07:30.319 --> 00:07:32.959 Will I be true to my mission, vision, and values? 00:07:33.120 --> 00:07:42.240 The core purposes that we've identified ourselves for ourselves, not just in our companies and our teams and our organizations, but individually. 00:07:42.639 --> 00:07:48.000 Because when you begin to look at it that way, the leader you're looking for is you. 00:07:48.240 --> 00:07:52.879 And the answers are not above us, they're within and among us. 00:07:53.120 --> 00:07:58.720 And too few people realize how important that is and how meaningful it can be for their lives. 00:07:59.040 --> 00:08:08.399 It is a powerful point, and you make that point through a lot of beautiful experiences and stories in the book as well. 00:08:08.720 --> 00:08:17.680 You talk about arriving at the Pentagon on September 11th and being handed a vest that was labeled command physician. 00:08:17.920 --> 00:08:22.720 What did that teach you on what leading is all about? 00:08:23.680 --> 00:08:31.360 You can't hide when you've got an orange fluorescent vest that has command physician in bright letters. 00:08:31.600 --> 00:08:40.159 And everyone is looking to you for answers to questions that have never been raised before, meaning there's no notebook. 00:08:40.240 --> 00:08:46.000 I couldn't go to one of those 50,000 books and look up what do you do as the command physician? 00:08:46.159 --> 00:08:49.120 They want to know is it safe for me to go in that building? 00:08:49.360 --> 00:09:04.080 How can we get in there and take care of the people who were injured, the people who and to recover those who were killed in the So you have to be able to have an incredible amount of confidence and yet humility at the same time. 00:09:04.799 --> 00:09:05.200 C.S. 00:09:05.279 --> 00:09:12.080 Lewis said humility is not thinking less of yourself, it's thinking of yourself less. 00:09:12.399 --> 00:09:13.600 And so I think that helps. 00:09:13.679 --> 00:09:21.519 There's also a great gold of my air quote, uh, former Prime Minister of Israel, one of her cabinet members was proclaiming his humility. 00:09:21.759 --> 00:09:24.159 And she said, Don't be so humble. 00:09:24.320 --> 00:09:25.759 You're not that great. 00:09:26.399 --> 00:09:29.519 So always a good thing, always a good thing to remember. 00:09:29.679 --> 00:09:34.879

And yet you have to make decisions and you have to make them as quickly as you can to be able to do it. 00:09:35.039 --> 00:09:44.480 So you learn, I hope this gives no offense to anyone in your audience, but I also learned that we spent too much time in our lives sucking up to people. 00:09:44.960 --> 00:09:51.120 There were 32 generals, uh, three-star or two-star or above that were behind the Jersey. 00:09:51.519 --> 00:09:53.200 I was not a military person. 00:09:53.360 --> 00:09:54.960 That was a civilian operation. 00:09:55.120 --> 00:09:58.799 I was the medical director for Fairfax County Fire and Rescue at the time. 00:09:59.039 --> 00:10:02.320 Those great people wanted to help any way they could. 00:10:02.399 --> 00:10:11.519 And I could have spent the entire time sucking up, if you will, to all those people, many of whom on TV today, they've been chairman of the Joy Chiefs. 00:10:11.679 --> 00:10:20.320 What I needed to do, and again, I don't mean to give offense, is to learn to suck down to the people that technically were below me on an org chart. 00:10:20.559 --> 00:10:39.519 But those were the structural engineers, the firefighters, the paramedics, the FBI evidence recovery team, the urban search and rescue teams that were going in there, because I needed their unique and individual knowledge to be able to synthesize that all together to say, is it safe or not safe? 00:10:39.600 --> 00:10:42.559 Or is it safe in this area, but not in another room? 00:10:42.799 --> 00:10:52.960 And I think there's lessons for all of us that listening to the people technically below us goes a lot further than trying to spend our time sucking up all the time. 00:10:53.200 --> 00:10:56.159 Marshall Goldsmith says, well, Marshall's a friend. 00:10:56.559 --> 00:11:04.399 And he says, we all despise it when we see it in other people, but why is it that we can't see ourselves when we're sucking up to others? 00:11:04.639 --> 00:11:06.639 And a lot of wisdom in that. 00:11:07.039 --> 00:11:15.840 What I wonder though is why is that not the case in most organizations, Tom, and in most environments? 00:11:16.080 --> 00:11:18.639 What you're saying makes perfect sense. 00:11:18.879 --> 00:11:26.639 However, over the years, I have been involved with organizations across the world, lots of them here in the U.S. 00:11:26.879 --> 00:11:32.399 When I talk to the executives, they would say this is what they want. 00:11:32.559 --> 00:11:34.240 They would nod as you're speaking. 00:11:34.399 --> 00:11:44.639 However, when you actually look at how people are communicating and how people are operating inside the organization, that's not the way they do it. 00:11:45.039 --> 00:11:46.639 Yeah, it's a very wise question. 00:11:46.720 --> 00:11:49.200 And typically I think there's several reasons for that. 00:11:49.600 --> 00:11:55.279 People, I go on site to speak or consult, or I do a lot of coaching as well. 00:11:55.519 --> 00:12:00.720 And people will say, we'll show you our culture, our mission, vision, values, and our org chart. 00:12:00.879 --> 00:12:10.240 And politely I say, absolutely happy to send if you want to send that, but I'm going to tell you after about a half an hour what your org chart really is. 00:12:10.639 --> 00:12:21.200 I'll tell you what your real mission and vision values are, because I always say that it's not the words on the walls that matter, it's the happenings in the halls. 00:12:21.360 --> 00:12:25.200 It's what really happens, particularly when there's crisis. 00:12:25.279 --> 00:12:28.879 And as we live in crisis from crisis to crisis these days. 00:12:29.039 --> 00:12:37.279 But there's also, and I learned this, I was both a football player, a linebacker when I was in college, and a theology major. 00:12:39.759 --> 00:12:46.000 But I learned that there's a psychological safety in an org chart. 00:12:46.159 --> 00:12:52.320 There's a psychological safety to, hey, if I keep going, I'll get to the top one of these days. 00:12:52.559 --> 00:12:54.480 I wrote a newsletter recently. 00:12:54.639 --> 00:13:03.200 I post uh those newsletters come up on LinkedIn and Substack, but the title was The Terrible Toxicity of I'm just. 00:13:04.480 --> 00:13:08.159 I'm just an emergency physician in my case. 00:13:08.399 --> 00:13:10.000 I'm just a podcaster. 00:13:10.159 --> 00:13:11.600 I'm just a nurse. 00:13:11.840 --> 00:13:14.159 I'm just a teller in this bank. 00:13:14.639 --> 00:13:26.559 And that is, it leads so fast to a victim's mentality that something's always happening to us instead of, no, today I am a leader. 00:13:26.799 --> 00:13:30.720 And when you embrace today I am a leader, how will I lead? 00:13:31.120 --> 00:13:34.399 Victim's mentality of necessity has to go away. 00:13:34.639 --> 00:13:40.000 I gave a talk at a conference, and I insist on talking to the planning committee before I go. 00:13:40.159 --> 00:13:44.320 In this case, I couldn't because it was too close to the time they wanted me to do it. 00:13:44.480 --> 00:13:54.960 And I got up and a thousand people, click lights are up, and I flipped up a slide I often use that says that never call someone a future leader. 00:13:55.200 --> 00:13:58.799 It's demonic, it's demeaning, it's it's demoralizing. 00:13:59.039 --> 00:14:07.360 And right about that time, the cleague lights went down slightly, and I could see a banner in the back of the room that said, future leaders conference. 00:14:09.440 --> 00:14:11.039 Yeah, Mahan, I know now. 00:14:11.279 --> 00:14:12.159 I know now. 00:14:13.200 --> 00:14:15.919 Don't you think they should have told me that ahead of time? 00:14:16.240 --> 00:14:27.600 But interestingly enough, they changed the whole title of the conference as a result of that, because that idea that you have to stand in a line to be a leader is just not true, number one. 00:14:27.759 --> 00:14:30.720 And yet there is that psychological safety to it. 00:14:30.879 --> 00:14:39.519 There is that various

religions in the world have what I call their prescriptions, thou shalt, and their proscriptions, thou shalt not. 00:14:39.679 --> 00:14:41.360 And if only it were that easy. 00:14:41.600 --> 00:14:52.240 But life is lived in the margins and in the gray areas in between, the prescriptions and the proscriptions, which makes it more confusing, but a hell of a lot more fun. 00:14:52.480 --> 00:14:56.559 Now, do I believe in emerging leaders, developing leaders? 00:14:56.720 --> 00:15:02.559 I hope that's what I but the idea of a future leader, again, that it doesn't work for me. 00:15:02.720 --> 00:15:05.840 And my experience has been it doesn't work for anything. 00:15:06.000 --> 00:15:18.559 And I speak not just to healthcare, but to large financial management companies and wealth management companies and sales forces and things like that, because it applies across the board no matter what place we are. 00:15:18.720 --> 00:15:27.679 Because the idea of an org chart, who's in charge, is really just designating your location, where your office is. 00:15:27.840 --> 00:15:29.440 Is it a corner office? 00:15:29.600 --> 00:15:32.080 It's not who you are in any way. 00:15:32.240 --> 00:15:41.759 I always tell people the boss, all in capitals, is someone who's convinced that he's the most important person in the room. 00:15:42.000 --> 00:15:51.600 But the leader is someone who knows that it's her job to make sure that everyone else in the room feels that they're the most important person in the room. 00:15:51.919 --> 00:15:54.080 So don't be the boss, be the leader. 00:15:54.720 --> 00:16:05.279 You also have a great story, Tom, based on your experience at the NFL Players Association, on how you became the medical director of the association. 00:16:05.360 --> 00:16:06.559 How did that come about? 00:16:06.960 --> 00:16:15.200 August 1st, 2001, Corey Stringer, a tackle for the Vikings, died of heat stroke on the Vikings practice field. 00:16:15.360 --> 00:16:24.159 I got a phone, and people say to me all the time, hey Doc, how do I build my resume to get a job like yours as the medical director of the NFL PA? 00:16:24.320 --> 00:16:35.600 I got a call literally within minutes of the time that Corey died from Gene Upshaw, who was the executive director of the NFLPA, but also the best left guard in the history of the game. 00:16:35.679 --> 00:16:38.480 He's in the Hall of Fame, he's got the yellow jacket. 00:16:38.639 --> 00:16:40.480 But he was also my best friend. 00:16:40.720 --> 00:16:41.919 And so he called me. 00:16:42.080 --> 00:16:47.759 He didn't call a search firm and have a search firm figure out what do we do and who do we hire. 00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:52.320 He didn't go to Chat GPT for resumes because it didn't exist then. 00:16:52.720 --> 00:16:54.799 He called me because he trusted me. 00:16:54.879 --> 00:16:58.639 And he trusted me because we were best friends. 00:16:58.799 --> 00:17:05.839 And his youngest, our youngest, were close friends at school or families that had dinners when the kids got sick. 00:17:06.079 --> 00:17:06.960 Who got to call? 00:17:07.200 --> 00:17:07.440 Me. 00:17:07.599 --> 00:17:09.599 And he'd say, Should I go to the emergency room? 00:17:09.839 --> 00:17:14.960 My answer is no, I'll be over in a few minutes and take care of, because we lived in the same neighborhood in Great Falls. 00:17:15.119 --> 00:17:20.000 So my point is that's why he called me of all people to step up and take a job. 00:17:20.079 --> 00:17:24.079 And there'd never been a medical director before, and I'm still the only one. 00:17:24.240 --> 00:17:28.240 So my point is don't build resumes, build relationships. 00:17:28.640 --> 00:17:36.960 If you build relationships through the course of your career, then everything will turn out fine and the resume will take care of itself. 00:17:37.440 --> 00:17:40.960 Yeah, you have referenced Chat GPT a couple of times, Tom. 00:17:41.200 --> 00:17:46.559 I've had lots of conversations with brilliant people on AI and where it's all headed. 00:17:46.640 --> 00:18:00.960 And one of the things that I believe will become even more important is the relationships you're talking about, because through the use of AI, access to knowledge and generating the most beautiful resumes is accessible to everyone. 00:18:01.119 --> 00:18:10.079 Those relationships and deep human connection is not and will not necessarily be unless you invest effort and time developing it. 00:18:10.400 --> 00:18:13.519 Yeah, it will never go away and it has to be invested. 00:18:13.759 --> 00:18:22.559 As it turns out, two hours ago, I had a call with Scott Diring, and Scott is Dean of Innovation at Duke's Fuqua School of Business. 00:18:22.880 --> 00:18:33.680 And the reason we had the conversation is he wrote, as you may have seen, an editorial for Wall Street Journal titled How I Killed and Revived Teamwork with AI. 00:18:34.720 --> 00:18:38.240 Brilliant guy, but humble, straightforward, and all that. 00:18:38.400 --> 00:18:53.440 It may take some jobs and make them different, but the thing that it will never replace, in my view, and I'm not trying to be old coot, a Luddite, or anything like that, is the fundamental importance of the ability to trust each other. 00:18:53.599 --> 00:18:58.880 Because I always say we have to think about leadership and leading in a radically different way. 00:18:59.039 --> 00:19:04.000 We have to act on those thoughts within a week, because if you don't, you're not going to do it. 00:19:04.079 --> 00:19:05.279 That's just human nature. 00:19:05.519 --> 00:19:07.359 But the third is we have to innovate. 00:19:07.680 --> 00:19:08.720 Why do we have to innovate? 00:19:08.880 --> 00:19:11.039 Because the way we're working isn't working. 00:19:11.359 --> 00:19:17.359 And in order for it to work better or to work as well as it could, it's got to be innovative. 00:19:17.440 --> 00:19:21.920 But innovation, of course, does not occur at the speed of genius,

intelligence, or creativity. 00:19:22.079 --> 00:19:24.319 It occurs at the speed of trust. 00:19:24.799 --> 00:19:28.880 Because if people don't trust each other, they won't step outside the lines. 00:19:29.200 --> 00:19:30.079 It's critical. 00:19:30.240 --> 00:19:37.759 And when the boss, we talked about that, says think outside the box, they almost never mean that. 00:19:38.000 --> 00:19:42.400 What they mean, what they really mean, is think inside my box. 00:19:42.880 --> 00:19:44.880 Think the way I'm thinking. 00:19:45.119 --> 00:19:46.640 Guess what I'm thinking. 00:19:46.880 --> 00:19:52.079 And that's no way to run a company, it's no way to have a team, and it's certainly no way to have a family. 00:19:52.240 --> 00:19:56.319 It's just not, in my opinion, a good way to live life. 00:19:57.440 --> 00:20:12.480 You also had to, when you were at the NFL Players Association, navigate the politics of the concussion crisis, where I imagine there were lots of different forces pushing for lots of different things. 00:20:12.880 --> 00:20:15.920 How were you able to handle that? 00:20:17.039 --> 00:20:23.920 When you hear the term trust, I think if you hear it in your right ear, what your left ear should hear is responsibility. 00:20:24.240 --> 00:20:30.240 Because if people trust you, then you have to be responsive and responsible to that trust. 00:20:30.480 --> 00:20:40.480 So when I started in 2001, by NFL mandate, if you had a concussion diagnosed, you got sent back in the game. 00:20:40.880 --> 00:20:44.240 And that was a written policy, if you can imagine that. 00:20:44.480 --> 00:20:58.160 Not only that, they purported that you actually had a better outcome if you went back in the game with a concussion, with a brain injury, with a whole bunch of guys smashing into each other at extraordinarily high rates of speed. 00:20:58.400 --> 00:21:04.640 And so you look at that stark situation and realize, okay, we have to change this culture. 00:21:04.880 --> 00:21:07.440 The entire culture has to change. 00:21:07.680 --> 00:21:10.880 Yes, it's a violent game, and yes, these are big men. 00:21:11.039 --> 00:21:15.039 Yes, force equals mass times acceleration. 00:21:15.359 --> 00:21:21.359 And our guys in 2001, and even more so now, are bigger and faster than they've ever been. 00:21:21.599 --> 00:21:24.640 So it was critical to help turn that tide. 00:21:24.880 --> 00:21:26.079 And how do I do that? 00:21:26.240 --> 00:21:29.119 I have no power, but I have a lot of influence. 00:21:29.279 --> 00:21:35.759 And I would say to your listeners, if you ever have the choice to choose between power and influence, choose influence. 00:21:36.000 --> 00:21:37.599 And the influence, where does it come from? 00:21:37.680 --> 00:21:43.920 It comes from those you serve, whoever you serve, however you serve them, not just in medicine, healthcare, or the NFL PA. 00:21:44.079 --> 00:21:53.519 And in my case, instead of speaking with the voice of Tom Mayer, I spoke with the voice of the player, patient, because all my players are patients as well. 00:21:53.680 --> 00:21:59.519 There's over 7,000 injuries in the NFL and only 20 per year, and only 2,500 players. 00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:02.240 Concussions went up 30% last year. 00:22:02.480 --> 00:22:10.400 No one's going to listen to me, much less do anything, lead by action, by the verb, if I it's about me. 00:22:10.480 --> 00:22:17.440 But if it's about my player patients and their wives, their kids, their families, then you've got the power to do it. 00:22:17.599 --> 00:22:24.960 So we, I say we, Sean Zanziberry, my the attorney I worked with at the time, wrote the concussion guidelines. 00:22:25.200 --> 00:22:28.960 And so they they now say NFL guidelines, but we wrote them. 00:22:29.119 --> 00:22:30.960 The Players Association did. 00:22:31.279 --> 00:22:43.920 And using the voice of the player patient to influence the owners, the team doctors, the trainers, and the press, the public, to say, oh, it doesn't have to be this way. 00:22:44.079 --> 00:22:45.200 We could have guidelines. 00:22:45.359 --> 00:22:49.200 We could examine players, and if they have a concussion, take them out. 00:22:49.359 --> 00:22:55.279 And if the concussion is diagnosed, then they have to have a graduated return to participation. 00:22:55.519 --> 00:23:01.200 So I'm it's not, I'm trying to keep my humility in mind, as we talked about earlier. 00:23:01.440 --> 00:23:04.319 What a gift to be able to speak for the player patient. 00:23:04.799 --> 00:23:31.279 And what a powerful example of what you said, Tom, which is if you have a choice between influence and power, take influence in that it took a lot of influence, as you mentioned, in representing the player patients to also bring the public around and then convince the owners that this would be the right thing to do in the process. 00:23:31.519 --> 00:23:42.319 So influence is what enabled you to shift this entire narrative and therefore the contract and the results. 00:23:42.720 --> 00:23:46.720 Yeah, and Ishmahan, we hear a lot about speaking truth to power. 00:23:46.799 --> 00:23:48.799 It's a very popular term these days. 00:23:49.039 --> 00:23:52.799 For whatever reason, I can confidently say I spoke truth to power. 00:23:53.200 --> 00:23:55.359 And I didn't do it on behalf of me. 00:23:55.519 --> 00:23:59.440 It was we spoke truth to power, number one. 00:23:59.599 --> 00:24:02.000 And number two, it was that that leveraged it. 00:24:02.079 --> 00:24:03.039 There was no playbook. 00:24:03.119 --> 00:24:05.279 There was no way to look this up somewhere. 00:24:05.599 --> 00:24:17.519 Quick story: I shortly after I started, I'd made an appointment to go down to Gene's office instead of running over to his house and met in his office, and there was a very difficult issue. 00:24:17.759 --> 00:24:22.559 I was smart enough to know that Gene didn't want me to just walk in and say, What do you want me to do? 00:24:22.799 -->

00:24:24.720 He wanted to hear solutions. 00:24:24.880 --> 00:24:29.680 So I framed the issue very tersely, quickly, succinctly. 00:24:29.759 --> 00:24:32.559 And I hear, here's three ways that we can handle this. 00:24:32.720 --> 00:24:34.000 What are your thoughts? 00:24:34.240 --> 00:24:37.440 And he said, just go be Tom Mayer. 00:24:37.839 --> 00:24:39.680 That's why you are Tom Mayor. 00:24:39.839 --> 00:24:41.759 That's why I hired Tom Mayer. 00:24:41.920 --> 00:24:46.079 And I walked out of the office, Mahan, and I called my wife, and she said, What did Gene say? 00:24:46.160 --> 00:24:47.839 And I said, I don't have a clue. 00:24:48.079 --> 00:24:49.759 I have no idea what he said. 00:24:50.319 --> 00:24:51.359 But of course I did. 00:24:52.160 --> 00:24:54.720 He was just saying, I trust you. 00:24:54.880 --> 00:24:56.640 That's why I hired you. 00:24:56.880 --> 00:24:58.559 So you go do the right thing. 00:24:58.720 --> 00:25:00.079 Thanks for letting me know. 00:25:00.319 --> 00:25:11.200 And I think that's what most CEOs want is a team of people that are an army of leaders, an organization of leaders that are willing to go out there. 00:25:11.279 --> 00:25:16.160 Now, the corollary is I always like to talk about making failure your fuel. 00:25:16.480 --> 00:25:24.799 My guys break down the 162 plays that happen in the National Football League on average, game on average, and break the film down. 00:25:24.960 --> 00:25:26.640 It's a fascinating concept. 00:25:26.880 --> 00:25:28.640 Break the film down. 00:25:28.960 --> 00:25:32.000 Not build the film up, but break the film down. 00:25:32.160 --> 00:25:33.839 And they're looking for mistakes. 00:25:34.000 --> 00:25:42.079 They're looking for, yeah, they're going to celebrate when they touchdown or a great tackle or break up on a pass that was looked like it was going to be complete. 00:25:42.240 --> 00:25:46.799 But they're spending most of the times, oh, I should have had my left hand a little further out. 00:25:46.960 --> 00:25:51.839 That first step backwards for the left tackle, he didn't get around me, but he almost got around me. 00:25:52.000 --> 00:25:54.640 So the near-miss phenomenon, if you will. 00:25:54.880 --> 00:25:58.960 And I think that's what we have to do in our lives is understand failure is going to happen. 00:25:59.279 --> 00:26:00.319 That's not a question. 00:26:00.480 --> 00:26:02.640 It's how do you make failure your fuel? 00:26:02.880 --> 00:26:04.960 Quick question for your audience. 00:26:05.200 --> 00:26:12.319 In the 2000 NFL draft, the 199th player was taken in that draft. 00:26:12.799 --> 00:26:16.640 And that person could have said, wow, 199th. 00:26:16.720 --> 00:26:19.440 There's only 264 in the whole draft. 00:26:19.599 --> 00:26:20.480 Oh my gosh. 00:26:20.640 --> 00:26:24.160 They looked in six people at his position were taken ahead of him. 00:26:24.319 --> 00:26:28.000 And you're nodding your head and smiling, so you know that person did okay. 00:26:28.240 --> 00:26:33.039 Five Super Bowl MVPs and seven Super Bowl trophies, and his name, of course, is Tom Brady. 00:26:33.359 --> 00:26:36.480 And he used failure as his fuel. 00:26:36.720 --> 00:26:40.720 And he can tell you every quarterback taken ahead of him. 00:26:40.960 --> 00:26:44.400 He can tell you the first time he kicked his butt in a game. 00:26:44.640 --> 00:26:51.680 He can tell you the head coach and the quarterback's coach that didn't draft him in order and passed him over. 00:26:51.920 --> 00:26:53.599 That's how you make failure your fuel. 00:26:53.759 --> 00:26:59.359 Now, we're not all going to go to the Super Bowl, but we're going to the Super Bowls of our parts of our lives. 00:26:59.599 --> 00:26:59.759 Yeah. 00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:08.000 What a beautiful example because you also talk about the fact that people aren't really leading until something breaks. 00:27:08.319 --> 00:27:13.599 This is whether breakage or setbacks as fuel for becoming better. 00:27:13.839 --> 00:27:21.200 Now, what I wonder, Tom, is over the years you work with thousands of elite athletes in the NFL. 00:27:21.440 --> 00:27:24.880 These are the best of the best in the sport. 00:27:25.440 --> 00:27:33.359 What did they teach you, or what did you learn from them about what it takes to lead under pressure? 00:27:33.839 --> 00:27:38.079 Well, it's a lesson that I tried to give to my boys when they were younger. 00:27:38.240 --> 00:27:41.279 I always had to travel a lot in my various jobs that I've had. 00:27:41.440 --> 00:27:45.359 But every day that I was home, I would drive them to school. 00:27:45.519 --> 00:27:53.599 And when I dropped them off at the school, because they all went to the same school, Potomac School, or right across the river from you, I always said the same thing as they got out of the truck. 00:27:53.839 --> 00:28:01.359 One more step in the journey of discovering where your deep joy intersects the world's deep needs. 00:28:01.599 --> 00:28:03.759 I swear I said this to them. 00:28:04.000 --> 00:28:07.359 They preferred to take the bus, as you might guess. 00:28:07.599 --> 00:28:09.519 They don't want to hear that stuff. 00:28:09.839 --> 00:28:13.680 But you got to start with the deep joy. 00:28:13.920 --> 00:28:17.599 Becoming a doctor in my case because my parents wanted me to? 00:28:17.759 --> 00:28:19.839 No, that makes no sense whatsoever. 00:28:20.000 --> 00:28:34.799 If I've got passion for serving others and passion for the work, the hard work, the disciplines of being a physician, not just the technical side, but the service side, the compassion side, then hey, it's a perfect job for me. 00:28:35.119 --> 00:28:40.640 But how many people do you know in your life that they took a job for somebody else's reasons? 00:28:40.799 --> 00:28:45.359 And to circle back what you said about the players, they had a deep joy. 00:28:45.680 --> 00:28:48.319 That is to play in the National Football League. 00:28:48.480 -->

00:28:56.559 They've lived their entire life on the right end of the belt-shaped curve, meaning they were always able to exceed expectations. 00:28:56.720 --> 00:29:01.039 And they heard all along the way, yeah, you're a great Pee-wee football player, but wait till you get to high school. 00:29:01.119 --> 00:29:03.759 Yeah, you're pretty good in high school, but wait till you get to college. 00:29:03.920 --> 00:29:07.119 Yeah, you're pretty good in college, but you'll never make it in the NFL. 00:29:07.279 --> 00:29:14.400 And they were always able to exceed those expectations because of their passion and their deep joy to play in the league. 00:29:14.720 --> 00:29:19.839 But now there's 300 players going to come up in the draft total. 00:29:19.920 --> 00:29:25.440 If you take the 264 that are drafted and the free agents that get signed that are not drafted. 00:29:25.599 --> 00:29:26.640 What does that mean? 00:29:26.799 --> 00:29:33.759 In this case, I don't often think life is a is a zero-sum game, but there's only 53 people on the roster. 00:29:33.920 --> 00:29:40.960 So if 300 men are coming into the league, 300 men are going out of the league every single year. 00:29:41.119 --> 00:29:45.200 Now, some of them retire, but a lot of my guys are get retired. 00:29:45.359 --> 00:29:49.920 They're told, hey, clean up your locker, give me your playbook, and don't ever come back again. 00:29:50.160 --> 00:29:54.079 And so what my point is they then have to switch their deep joy. 00:29:54.319 --> 00:30:10.000 The arc of their life, the arc of their career switches from playing in the National Football League to whatever is going to lead them to the rest of their life because they're going to be a player much longer than they were ever a player. 00:30:10.240 --> 00:30:13.599 So that ability I've learned from them how they change. 00:30:13.839 --> 00:30:21.920 And it's always enormously gratifying when these guys that I served when they were in the league will call me up and say, hey, Doc, could you help me out? 00:30:22.079 --> 00:30:23.039 Give me your opinion. 00:30:23.200 --> 00:30:24.000 What do you think? 00:30:24.160 --> 00:30:24.960 Where does it go? 00:30:25.200 --> 00:30:26.160 Tell you a quick story. 00:30:26.400 --> 00:30:29.839 Julius Thomas, tight end, very talented guy. 00:30:30.000 --> 00:30:33.920 And I said, Julius, you know, when you decided to retire, why'd you do that? 00:30:34.079 --> 00:30:40.960 And he said, Doc, twice in the same year, I'd give ideas to the coaches about plays we could run or what we could do. 00:30:41.200 --> 00:30:46.240 And twice a different coach has said to me, Julius, I'm not paying you to think. 00:30:46.400 --> 00:30:48.000 I'm paying you to run. 00:30:48.319 --> 00:30:51.920 I'll demean that's like future leader or something like that. 00:30:52.079 --> 00:30:53.279 And he said, That's it. 00:30:53.440 --> 00:31:01.359 Now, punchline is Julius Thomas now has not only his master's in counseling in psychology, he's got his PhD. 00:31:01.599 --> 00:31:09.039 And he has his own practice of elite performance enhancement uh strategies psychologically for folks. 00:31:09.119 --> 00:31:14.559 So, what a beautiful uh example, I think, of that arc of deep joy changing. 00:31:14.720 --> 00:31:21.599 And he's going to influence many more people in the course of his counseling career than he ever did on the national footballing playing field. 00:31:21.839 --> 00:31:25.119 It is a beautiful and powerful example, Tom. 00:31:25.759 --> 00:31:31.519 So I wonder how can we find our own deep joy? 00:31:31.920 --> 00:31:34.880 Well, the first step I think is self-awareness. 00:31:35.039 --> 00:31:45.759 And I don't mean focusing too much on the self, but simply paying attention to what am I thinking, what am I feeling, what brings me joy, and what doesn't. 00:31:45.920 --> 00:31:55.599 And a simple example I use all the time when I'm on site with teams or working with teams or coaching, which is the love, hate, tolerate exercise. 00:31:55.839 --> 00:31:56.960 What do you love? 00:31:57.279 --> 00:31:59.599 Write it down in detail. 00:31:59.839 --> 00:32:01.920 And what is it about that you love? 00:32:02.079 --> 00:32:02.960 What do you hate? 00:32:03.119 --> 00:32:04.400 It might be AI. 00:32:04.559 --> 00:32:11.440 It could be, I hate dealing with a computer, hate dealing with the electronic medical record, I hate budgeting or whatever it might be. 00:32:11.599 --> 00:32:12.880 And then what do you tolerate? 00:32:13.039 --> 00:32:14.079 The things that are just there. 00:32:14.240 --> 00:32:23.920 And so once you understand that, you can start to say, how do I maximize what I love to the extent I can eliminate what I hate and minimize what I tolerate? 00:32:24.160 --> 00:32:37.279 So to start with that, there's a couple other exercises, which is get a picture of yourself any point in your life, whatever you could be two years ago, could be when you're in grade school, could be in high school, whatever. 00:32:37.440 --> 00:32:42.319 And sit down and look at that person and say, what was your deep joy? 00:32:42.559 --> 00:32:45.599 What was it that brought you to where you are? 00:32:45.839 --> 00:32:47.039 Are you living that? 00:32:47.200 --> 00:32:48.640 Are you embodying that? 00:32:48.880 --> 00:32:50.319 If not, why not? 00:32:50.559 --> 00:32:55.039 And if not, how do I get back to my deep joy? 00:32:55.279 --> 00:33:05.279 Others uh write a letter, write a but write a letter, not an email, from yourself to talk about where was it and how did I go right? 00:33:05.599 --> 00:33:16.799 I'm working with a former Army Ranger, duple across player, an Army Ranger, highly decorated, a special operations guy, and he's in business now, in a business field. 00:33:17.039 --> 00:33:22.400 And yet he feels that he's drifted away a bit from his deep joy. 00:33:22.559 --> 00:33:30.079 So what an honor that he would even ask me, after all his service to our country,

to talk to him about that. 00:33:30.319 --> 00:33:39.519 But even more of an honor to be able to help in some small incremental inflection point way to say, let's rediscover it together. 00:33:39.839 --> 00:33:55.519 One of the things that brings me deep joy, Tom, is the chance to learn from people who have had such magnificent experience making a difference on other people's lives and learning lessons from them. 00:33:56.000 --> 00:34:07.279 So it has been a deep joy getting a chance to learn from you and hear some of your experiences that you also share in your book. 00:34:07.519 --> 00:34:13.679 For the audience to follow your work, you mentioned LinkedIn, mentioned Substack and the book. 00:34:13.840 --> 00:34:15.440 Where would you send them to, Tom? 00:34:15.840 --> 00:34:19.440 I actually have a website, but there's nothing for sale on the website. 00:34:19.599 --> 00:34:23.440 Hopefully, I've got things to give to you that you might have find helpful. 00:34:23.599 --> 00:34:31.119 The website is just www.tommayor, t-h o m-a y e-r-md.com. 00:34:31.599 --> 00:34:36.239 My email is Tom Mayer M D at Gmail. 00:34:36.480 --> 00:34:42.320 My phone number, text call is 703-403-4147. 00:34:42.800 --> 00:34:45.679 And my point is if I can help your listeners, I will. 00:34:45.840 --> 00:34:46.320 Period. 00:34:46.480 --> 00:34:50.400 When my phone rings and I don't know who it is, I always answer it the same way. 00:34:50.559 --> 00:34:51.119 This is Dr. 00:34:51.280 --> 00:34:51.599 Mayer. 00:34:51.840 --> 00:34:52.960 The answer is yes. 00:34:53.119 --> 00:34:55.199 Now let's figure out what the question is. 00:34:55.440 --> 00:34:57.679 So if I can help your listeners, I will. 00:34:57.840 --> 00:34:58.159 Period. 00:34:58.239 --> 00:34:59.119 Full stop. 00:34:59.360 --> 00:35:04.960 And trust me, you're very kind to put me among the luminaries you've had on your podcast. 00:35:05.039 --> 00:35:06.639 So thank you for having done that. 00:35:06.880 --> 00:35:16.719 What a beautiful perspective to have to life, to being a leader, and to making a difference in other people's lives. 00:35:16.960 --> 00:35:21.760 It's been such a joy, Tom, to learn from you and your book. 00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:25.360 Leadership is worthless, but leading is priceless. 00:35:25.519 --> 00:35:30.079 What I learned from 9-11, the NFL, and Ukraine. 00:35:30.320 --> 00:35:31.840 Thank you so much, Dr. 00:35:32.000 --> 00:35:32.639 Tom Mayer. 00:35:32.960 --> 00:35:33.440 Thanks, brother. 00:35:33.519 --> 00:35:34.719 I appreciate you. 00:35:35.840 --> 00:35:40.159 You have been listening to Partnering Leadership with your host, Mahan Tavakoli. 00:35:40.639 --> 00:35:56.239 If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a rating and review of the podcast on your favorite podcasting app and forward the conversation to a friend or colleague so you can help more people discover their purpose, grow professionally with meaning, and have a greater impact. 00:35:56.480 --> 00:36:02.639 For additional leadership insights and bonus content, visit us at partneringleadership.com.