התמלול המלא של 470 [Thursday Refresh] Leading Change: How Leaders Create Lasting Transformation with John Kotter

as you did in the beginning of this conversation, 78 00:04:55,279 --> 00:05:00,480 that he's been following my written material since he was a 79 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:06,480 student and using those techniques, and they're paying 80 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:12,079 off in a way that seems in many ways hard to believe. 81 00:05:12,319 --> 00:05:16,079 But it's true, and we need lots more of that in this world. 82 00:05:16,399 --> 00:05:18,160 SPEAKER_02: And you've contributed a lot to that, 83 00:05:18,319 --> 00:05:19,519 Professor Cutter. 84 00:05:19,759 --> 00:05:23,759 But knowing that I have some mayors, including big city 85 00:05:23,759 --> 00:05:27,439 mayors, that are fans of this podcast that have sent emails, I 86 00:05:27,439 --> 00:05:30,160 can't let that go without understanding. 87 00:05:30,319 --> 00:05:34,079 When you looked at the most effective mayors and the ones 88 00:05:34,079 --> 00:05:38,480 that weren't that effective, what were some of your key 89 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:42,560 findings that then led to your understanding of leadership and 90 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:43,199 change? 91 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:47,199 SPEAKER_01: Although I'm not sure how much I used the words 92 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:53,120 leadership vision, building a network of relationships that go 93 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:58,079 far beyond just the municipal bureaucracy, empowering people 94 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:02,560 and inspiring people, in a sense, create a mass movement 95 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:09,040 towards some vision of making the city a lot better, despite 96 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:10,800 very, very difficult on it. 97 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:17,120 We had riots going on in the late 1960s that were hurting 98 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:22,560 people, putting people in jail, causing terrible property damage 99 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:24,319 on the downside. 100 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:30,079 And what leadership, which is what we got from the best 101 00:06:30,399 --> 00:06:37,920 mayors, did was to not just try to minimize the damage. 102 00:06:38,399 --> 00:06:43,759 The mindset is what are the real opportunities at this time for 103 00:06:43,759 --> 00:06:48,399 this city that will make a difference in people's lives? 104 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:54,240 People could understand talking relentlessly about it, getting 105 00:06:54,240 --> 00:07:00,160 people bought in and enthused and mobilized, and then having 106 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:03,680 the faith to let go. 107 00:07:04,399 --> 00:07:08,639 Because all great leaders throughout history are not 108 00:07:08,639 --> 00:07:09,600 control freaks. 109 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:11,199 It doesn't work. 110 00:07:11,439 --> 00:07:16,800 You don't create mass movements by trying to control everybody's 111 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:17,759 actions. 112 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:20,480 And that's what these mayors did. 113 00:07:20,639 --> 00:07:24,720 And what's interesting also, thinking back right this minute, 114 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:28,560 is we're all very different personalities. 115 00:07:28,959 --> 00:07:33,680 So it's not a personality issue, it's a behavior issue, it's a 116 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:38,319 mindset issue, it's a way of looking at the job. 117 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:45,920 The worst mayors saw the job as purely a way to further their 118 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:47,920 own narrow interests. 119 00:07:48,399 --> 00:07:54,000 A bit up from that, people who saw the job and very much make 120 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:58,560 the bureaucracy function minimally well so I can get 121 00:07:58,560 --> 00:07:59,759 re-elected. 122 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:05,040 And then you kept taking steps up until you find people who are 123 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:11,040 really seeing that even if it's not in the job description of 124 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:17,439 the mayor, the name of the game is to provide leadership to find 125 00:08:17,439 --> 00:08:20,879 the opportunities in the challenging and changing 126 00:08:20,879 --> 00:08:26,240 environment, mobilize people to capitalize on those and achieve 127 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:28,639 more than people think is possible. 128 00:08:29,279 --> 00:08:30,480 Exciting stuff. 129 00:08:30,959 --> 00:08:32,559 SPEAKER_02: It really is, Professor Cotter. 130 00:08:32,639 --> 00:08:35,600 And one of the other elements that is really exciting is that 131 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:38,320 in some respects you've stayed consistent with some of your 132 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:42,799 messaging, but you've added more research and more information. 133 00:08:43,039 --> 00:08:47,200 And in this latest book, Change, you talk about the three major 134 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:52,080 root systems that define the science of change, and you go 135 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:56,559 into the human nature elements of it more than I think you had 136 00:08:56,559 --> 00:08:58,399 gone into in the past. 137 00:08:58,799 --> 00:09:03,279 So, what role does the human nature and our resistance to 138 00:09:03,519 --> 00:09:08,080 change and our capacity for change play in organizational 139 00:09:08,399 --> 00:09:09,039 change? 140 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:14,799 SPEAKER_01: One of the fields of science that has come a long way 141 00:09:14,799 --> 00:09:19,759 in the last 20 years and has a long way to go, is understanding 142 00:09:19,759 --> 00:09:23,279 of the human brain and the hormonal system and everything 143 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:27,759 that accounted with is our basic heart wiring, if you will. 144 00:09:28,399 --> 00:09:33,519 And four years ago, I started at the consulting company that I 145 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:40,240 found, co-founded, a study group to look into that to see if 146 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:46,639 there was something that would help us go deeper in our 147 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:52,720 understanding of why and how some people were able to bring 148 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:57,039 about incredible changes that

benefited the masses. 149 00:09:57,519 --> 00:10:01,440 We decided that indeed there was something there. 150 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:03,919 It was sometimes hard to find. 151 00:10:04,159 --> 00:10:08,879 We talked to the specialists who are neurologists, because they 152 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:12,960 are business people or don't know much of the organizations. 153 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:18,559 Insight number one, which has huge implications for all of us, 154 00:10:18,879 --> 00:10:25,919 is we all, almost savious people, have built into us a 155 00:10:25,919 --> 00:10:30,720 system, if you will, like a radar that's going on probably 156 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:34,559 24 hours a day when we're sleeping, that's looking for 157 00:10:34,799 --> 00:10:35,519 threats. 158 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:41,600 And when it perceives a threat, it sends out chemical 159 00:10:41,919 --> 00:10:47,519 information that spikes our energy level, that focuses our 160 00:10:47,519 --> 00:10:52,240 mind like a laser on the threat, and can get us to do really 161 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:57,279 quite remarkable things very quickly to get away from that 162 00:10:57,279 --> 00:10:57,600 problem. 163 00:10:58,639 --> 00:11:03,120 When it was originally being developed 200,000 years ago to 164 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:08,000 run away from the fable saber-toothed tiger or whatever, 165 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:11,679 and zip up a tree at lightning speed. 166 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:18,720 That system still is in us and it is very powerful. 167 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:22,960 And the average person, including myself until I did 168 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:28,720 this work, totally underestimates how it plays into 169 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:30,559 our lives today. 170 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:36,559 Because today, that same threat radar doesn't just look for 171 00:11:36,879 --> 00:11:40,960 saber-tooth tigers, it looks for anything that it's been 172 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:48,639 programmed to believe could be a threat to our ego, to our job, 173 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:53,840 to our salary and career, to our relationships. 174 00:11:54,399 --> 00:12:02,159 And we live in a world today that is more complex and more 175 00:12:02,159 --> 00:12:08,799 volatile and more noisy than the world in which that system was 176 00:12:08,799 --> 00:12:13,679 developed 200,000 years ago by a factor of who knows what, 100, 177 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:14,799 200. 178 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:20,000 So what that means is if only unconscious, somewhere in our 179 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:25,519 bodies, all the time, 20 times a day, 50 times a day, there's a 180 00:12:25,519 --> 00:12:30,480 little system going threat, chemicals are going up, we're 181 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:35,840 feeling a little stressed as our body tries to figure out okay, 182 00:12:36,399 --> 00:12:37,759 do I climb a tree? 183 00:12:37,919 --> 00:12:39,120 What do I do here? 184 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:46,080 Now, that system still, when it

works well, because there are 185 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:47,440 real threats in this world. 186 00:12:47,679 --> 00:12:51,440 Every time you cross the street, you can be hit by a bus. 187 00:12:52,159 --> 00:12:56,879 And there are threats on the job that are problems that need to 188 00:12:56,879 --> 00:13:01,360 be dealt with quickly, with energy, and with focus. 189 00:13:02,399 --> 00:13:09,360 The problem is the world is so noisy, and pandemics, politics, 190 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:15,120 the economy and the stock market, cable TV news, the 191 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:19,519 number of things that can send us off, and after a point, what 192 00:13:19,519 --> 00:13:24,080 happens is the system doesn't work the way it was designed 193 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:24,399 for. 194 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:26,399 It just overheats in a sense. 195 00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:27,440 It's like a car. 196 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:32,000 It's radiator, it's just run out of water, and it just comes to 197 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:32,480 all. 198 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:39,279 And it kills our capacity to not only deal with the threat, more 199 00:13:39,279 --> 00:13:46,240 importantly, any capacity we have to look for opportunities, 200 00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:50,000 provide that leadership, mobilize the masses, make 201 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:53,840 important things happen, it tends to get shut down. 202 00:13:54,639 --> 00:13:59,759 Now, the good news is we do have another system on this that is 203 00:13:59,919 --> 00:14:05,759 oriented toward that latter set of actions, my best mayors. 204 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:11,279 It helps us as a species thrive, and it helps you and I as 205 00:14:11,279 --> 00:14:17,759 individuals thrive by A, looking for opportunities, B sending out 206 00:14:17,759 --> 00:14:22,240 different chemicals that raise our energy, make us feel 207 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:27,120 excited, sometimes passionate about some issue. 208 00:14:27,519 --> 00:14:33,200 And as long as we can make progress for what we perceive to 209 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:39,679 be progress on whatever that opportunity is, then energy can 210 00:14:39,679 --> 00:14:43,200 stay up for a remarkably long period of time. 211 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:48,879 It's not at the peak and then exhaustion and you fall asleep. 212 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:55,919 And understanding that those two systems with the survived one 213 00:14:56,159 --> 00:15:02,559 more powerful are at the heart of human nature, has all kinds 214 00:15:02,559 --> 00:15:08,639 of implications for managing people, running organizations, 215 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:10,159 and the like. 216 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:45,440 And more often than not, because it gets absorbed by an 217 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:51,519 individual view being as a threat to our survival, we 218 00:16:51,519 --> 00:16:52,799 define the problem. 219 00:16:53,039 --> 00:16:56,399 How do I get out from underneath this problem? 220 00:16:57,039 --> 00:16:59,039 Which doesn't help at all. 221 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:06,160 If you look at how great leaders and great organizations create 222 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:10,799 and maintain a sense of urgency, I see much clearer than when I 223 00:17:10,799 --> 00:17:14,000 first wrote that 25 years ago. 224 00:17:14,319 --> 00:17:20,960 It's all about opportunity, it's all about getting people excited 225 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:23,119 about some possibility. 226 00:17:23,839 --> 00:17:29,839 And it's all about that level of energetic passion that gets 227 00:17:29,839 --> 00:17:34,880 translated into people being alert on a daily basis as they 228 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:40,240 do their jobs for just little things they can do to push a 229 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:43,119 strategic initiative ahead. 230 00:17:43,759 --> 00:17:51,680 That is what makes for a sense of urgency and keeps it up for 231 00:17:51,839 --> 00:17:56,240 enough time to achieve something really significant. 232 00:17:56,799 --> 00:18:00,079 SPEAKER_02: Professor Carter, what role does organizational 233 00:18:00,079 --> 00:18:06,160 purpose play in being able to create a positive thriving sense 234 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:09,759 of urgency in people rather than a negative one? 235 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:13,599 SPEAKER_01: Once you get some clarity on what your biggest 236 00:18:13,599 --> 00:18:19,599 opportunities are, the second question is, okay, it's an 237 00:18:19,599 --> 00:18:22,960 opportunity, but what's the point? 238 00:18:24,559 --> 00:18:29,279 Capitalizing on that opportunity that could be done in ways that 239 00:18:29,279 --> 00:18:32,640 produce a variety of different kinds of benefits. 240 00:18:33,039 --> 00:18:35,519 So what's our objective? 241 00:18:35,759 --> 00:18:37,519 What's our mission? 242 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:40,799 What's our purpose? 243 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:45,759 And then with that in mind, you can take a step back and say, 244 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:50,000 okay, if that's the mission, that's the purpose, what would 245 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:55,839 this look like if we really made progress over the next year or 246 00:18:56,079 --> 00:18:58,160 two years or five years? 247 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:04,880 And that's a vision, which you can start articulating and 248 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:10,160 talking to people about and making something less abstract 249 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:15,680 and more concrete about how you would be treating what kind of 250 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:19,200 customers you'd be dealing with, how you'd be treating them, et 251 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:20,319 cetera, et cetera. 252 00:19:20,559 --> 00:19:24,480 So I think purpose is an important piece of it, but it's 253 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:29,759 a piece that kind of sits in between opportunity and vision. 254 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:35,440 A month ago, two months ago, had an opportunity to talk to the 255 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:41,279 gentleman who was the chairman and CEO

of now the sixth largest 256 00:19:41,279 --> 00:19:42,480 bank at the U.S. 257 00:19:43,039 --> 00:19:44,559 His name is Kelly King. 258 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:48,720 I've not met him face to face, but I've had a chance to talk 259 00:19:48,799 --> 00:19:49,039 to. 260 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:53,680 He came into my life because, believe it or not, he bought 261 00:19:53,839 --> 00:19:59,759 close to 28,000 books for his entire staff. 262 00:20:00,319 --> 00:20:05,440 And the general public, unless you're in the southeast, would 263 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:09,759 not recognize the name of this company because it's a new name, 264 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:11,920 a function of a merger. 265 00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:19,039 And in talking to him, and in talking to his CEO, Bill Rogers, 266 00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:24,079 when I asked them, how did you go about thinking about merger 267 00:20:24,079 --> 00:20:24,960 integration? 268 00:20:25,519 --> 00:20:27,599 And where did you start? 269 00:20:29,039 --> 00:20:36,240 Kelly says, We started with purpose and they got hit with 270 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:38,640 COVID like three months later. 271 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:46,319 But they have managed to do a remarkable job during this COVID 272 00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:51,279 period of bringing these two organizations together because 273 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:57,039 they didn't do what is the normal MA game, which is you've 274 00:20:57,039 --> 00:21:01,839 got a checklist of things that have to be done, and you've got 275 00:21:01,839 --> 00:21:05,839 to check them all off, and nobody thinks they're a bigger 276 00:21:05,839 --> 00:21:10,880 sense or a more human sense or recognizes the big problem that 277 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:15,119 could come about, which is you've got two organizations 278 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:20,000 that don't ever grow together, you never get the one plus one 279 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:21,200 equals three. 280 00:21:21,519 --> 00:21:25,440 You end up with two cultures that fight each other. 281 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:30,000 And by talking about purpose and in very human terms for the 282 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:35,680 entire bank, they got the MA integration off to a terrific 283 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:40,480 start, and despite the problems of COVID, they've made 284 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:42,079 incredible progress. 285 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:44,799 SPEAKER_02: That's a wonderful example, Professor Cutter. 286 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:49,519 And the reason I encourage everyone to reflect on it is 287 00:21:49,519 --> 00:21:52,640 that a lot of times we forget when we're talking about change 288 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:54,400 and change in organizations. 289 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:56,880 It's humans in human systems. 290 00:21:56,960 --> 00:21:58,799 It is not structural. 291 00:21:58,960 --> 00:21:59,759 And the mistakes. 292 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:03,440 A lot of times people make it, even looking at your eight 293 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:08,720 steps, is that they approach it as steps on a PowerPoint slide 294 00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:12,480 rather than recognizing it's humans that need to embrace 295 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:12,720 this. 296 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:16,960 That's why the research and the thoughts that you shared with 297 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:21,119 respect to how to incorporate that sense of purpose and a 298 00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:25,440 positive sense of urgency are, in my view, some of the most 299 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:29,920 critical thinking needed for organizations to be able to 300 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:30,400 change. 301 00:22:30,559 --> 00:22:34,000 Most change initiatives, as you know, vast majority, almost 80%, 302 00:22:34,559 --> 00:22:39,759 fail in part because that's exactly what they fail at doing. 303 00:22:40,079 --> 00:22:41,279 SPEAKER_01: There's no question. 304 00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:48,240 It's ultimately people that either make it work or end up in 305 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:54,880 a survive mode and resisting change or passively undermining 306 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:55,200 you. 307 00:22:55,440 --> 00:23:00,400 Not because they're bad people, they're just being human beings, 308 00:23:00,559 --> 00:23:04,720 and you're not approaching them correctly in the way you go 309 00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:06,640 about trying to make change. 310 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:07,599 SPEAKER_02: Yes. 311 00:23:07,839 --> 00:23:11,279 Now you build on that, and you also talk about the challenge we 312 00:23:11,279 --> 00:23:14,160 have with modern organizations and their limitation. 313 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:18,880 There is a management-centric design that has been built at 314 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:22,319 least over the past hundred years for reliability and 315 00:23:22,319 --> 00:23:27,519 efficiency, and those are not the designs that can take us 316 00:23:27,519 --> 00:23:28,480 into the future. 317 00:23:29,039 --> 00:23:32,160 SPEAKER_01: Most people, I suspect, don't realize that 318 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:39,359 organizations as we know them really were first built because 319 00:23:39,599 --> 00:23:45,920 of the Industrial Revolution and science in the late 19th 320 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:46,559 century. 321 00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:53,440 The average business before that, before the Civil War, had 322 00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:55,359 maybe five employees. 323 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:07,200 A single textile bill with maybe 80 employees. 324 00:24:07,759 --> 00:24:13,039 That all began to change at the end of the 19th century. 325 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:19,519 And what they discovered is that when you try to involve a 326 00:24:19,519 --> 00:24:26,640 thousand or five thousand people at not one but fifty locations, 327 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:29,039 the whole thing dured chaos. 328 00:24:29,279 --> 00:24:34,319 And so they had to invent, and they did invent in the late 19th 329 00:24:34,319 --> 00:24:38,799 century, something which today we call

management. 330 00:24:39,519 --> 00:24:44,960 There were no managed schools of business before the 1880s. 331 00:24:45,519 --> 00:24:48,079 They didn't exist, they weren't needed. 332 00:24:48,319 --> 00:24:54,640 But the disciples' purpose was to somehow coordinate all of 333 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:59,839 these people doing different jobs in different locations in a 334 00:24:59,839 --> 00:25:05,200 way that was efficient enough to make money for investors and 335 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:09,759 reliable enough to give the service or product to the 336 00:25:09,759 --> 00:25:10,640 customer. 337 00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:18,240 That was a huge innovation at the time and a hugely difficult 338 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:18,880 task. 339 00:25:19,519 --> 00:25:26,079 Although, if you looked at a business around 1990 versus 340 00:25:26,319 --> 00:25:30,480 today, you would see a lot of differences that are a function 341 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:34,400 of the fact that they didn't have cell phones, they didn't 342 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:38,640 have TVs, they didn't have the kind of building that I'm in 343 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:39,279 right now. 344 00:25:39,759 --> 00:25:45,839 But the organizational form in terms of an entity plans and 345 00:25:45,839 --> 00:25:52,160 budgets, and has a hierarchical structure, and uh has a system 346 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:57,279 for bringing in and hiring floor and cinematic stuff, and that 347 00:25:57,279 --> 00:25:59,359 focuses on metrics. 348 00:25:59,759 --> 00:26:05,519 That was invented then, still used today, but it doesn't 349 00:26:05,519 --> 00:26:11,200 produce outcomes of innovation leaping into the future, 350 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:17,119 adapting quickly and agily to change that wasn't the purpose, 351 00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:18,880 and it doesn't do it. 352 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:24,400 Now, can you take the basic organizational form that comes 353 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:30,480 out of the industrial revolution of 150 years ago and make it 354 00:26:30,799 --> 00:26:35,839 something that can be much more adaptive, agile, etc.? 355 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:39,839 Yeah, that's what we've been studying now for decades. 356 00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:47,200 And it comes back to leadership, it comes back to a variety of 357 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:53,599 processes and behaviors that were not centrally in court to 358 00:26:53,599 --> 00:26:59,359 most businesses under 50 years ago, like creating and 359 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:01,680 maintaining a sense of urgency. 360 00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:06,480 And what the great businesses are doing today, and I would say 361 00:27:06,799 --> 00:27:13,200 public institutions too, is they're experimenting with how 362 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:20,000 to not throw away the machine that makes sure that the trains 363 00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:25,599 run on time, so to speak, but they can add another piece that 364 00:27:25,599 --> 00:27:31,359 can work hand in glove together with the traditional form that 365 00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:35,119 can be innovative and adaptive. 366 00:27:35,599 --> 00:27:39,759 It's more leadership than management, it's more network 367 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:46,559 than hierarchy, it's more hard and monitored or physical labor. 368 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:50,640 And everybody's gonna have to go that way eventually. 369 00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:55,839 And right now, I'm going to be talking to some people who run 370 00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:58,960 federal agencies in the U.S. 371 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:00,079 next week. 372 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:03,920 It's just doing it prep before we started talking. 373 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:08,480 And some of them have got real challenges. 374 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:16,000 Their bureaucracies are just so slow, slow to adapt and so 375 00:28:16,559 --> 00:28:18,000 survive oriented. 376 00:28:18,559 --> 00:28:20,960 Who's the next administration? 377 00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:23,440 What are they gonna do to us? 378 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:30,559 And yet, if we can't get those federal, state level, and city 379 00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:36,400 level bureaucracies into the 21st century, we are all going 380 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:38,160 to suffer greatly. 381 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:43,359 But I go back to my mayors and I can say it can be done. 382 00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:44,880 We've seen it. 383 00:28:45,039 --> 00:28:49,759 It's amazing what can be done, understanding what creates 384 00:28:50,079 --> 00:28:56,079 adaptive change, agile change to take advantage of the 385 00:28:56,079 --> 00:28:57,279 opportunities. 386 00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:00,480 SPEAKER_02: It is really hard, Professor Cotter. 387 00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:03,920 I'm, as you know, out of Greater Washington, D.C. 388 00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:07,839 region, and a lot of organizations, whether federal 389 00:29:07,839 --> 00:29:12,000 agencies or quasi-government organizations, talk about the 390 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:15,839 limitations, their board of directors, and the structures 391 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:17,680 and how hard it is. 392 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:23,440 But part of what you talk about is the fact that there is need 393 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:27,359 for leadership and there is need for greater leadership. 394 00:29:27,519 --> 00:29:28,480 I love your quote. 395 00:29:28,559 --> 00:29:31,200 You say leadership is not the province of the few. 396 00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:36,160 The only way we can adapt is to have lots of us lead. 397 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:41,440 SPEAKER_01: The hardest solution to our biggest challenges these 398 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:45,839 days is getting more leadership from more people. 399 00:29:46,559 --> 00:29:49,039 The unusual suspects. 400 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:54,880 We have seen in our consulting practice again and again 401 00:29:55,440 --> 00:30:02,400 examples that of people who the top executives have never heard 402 00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:02,640 of. 403

00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:04,160 They're buried in the hire. 404 00:30:05,279 --> 00:30:11,039 We got great stories about third shift manufacturing workers, 405 00:30:11,599 --> 00:30:16,079 about young people that are on nobody's chart of high 406 00:30:16,079 --> 00:30:22,079 potentials, about old people, somebody that's five years from 407 00:30:22,079 --> 00:30:27,119 retirement, that is assumed by the powers that be out the 408 00:30:27,279 --> 00:30:34,799 pasture, who, if you handle them correctly, if you can reach and 409 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:40,799 help activate their throttle mechanism with good leadership, 410 00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:46,640 they turn into leaders for people around them, and you get 411 00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:51,839 enough of those people leading, and you get a mass movement. 412 00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:56,799 I mean, if you go back, the first high tech organization in 413 00:30:56,799 --> 00:30:59,519 the globe was IBM. 414 00:30:59,839 --> 00:31:05,119 And if you look at the Tom Watson story, it's a fascinating 415 00:31:05,119 --> 00:31:05,519 story. 416 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:09,599 But even though it's set at a time that's almost a century 417 00:31:09,599 --> 00:31:15,279 ago, and in an environment that had no computers, that's 418 00:31:15,279 --> 00:31:17,039 post-World War II. 419 00:31:17,359 --> 00:31:23,279 Nevertheless, if you look at his actions as the head of a 420 00:31:23,279 --> 00:31:29,920 business, they're not that different from the student I was 421 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:34,319 telling you about earlier, who's increased the market cap on his 422 00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:38,400 firm by an unfathomably large amount. 423 00:31:38,799 --> 00:31:47,359 He mobilized huge numbers of people within IBM to innovate at 424 00:31:47,359 --> 00:31:53,759 a time when innovation as an industry was not the norm, and 425 00:31:54,079 --> 00:32:01,039 to work hard and be loyal and be positive during the beginning of 426 00:32:01,039 --> 00:32:07,279 the depression, when most organizations were facing and 427 00:32:07,279 --> 00:32:14,160 created by the actions of the executive, the exact opposite 428 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:18,160 loyalty going down, depression going up, etc. 429 00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:18,880 etc. 430 00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:26,160 Then now mobilizing more people to provide more leadership. 431 00:32:26,559 --> 00:32:33,039 I am absolutely convinced, based on now what, fifteen research 432 00:32:33,039 --> 00:32:40,640 studies over 40 years is the central key to a prospering 433 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:47,119 organization, and even broader to a prospering society and 434 00:32:47,119 --> 00:32:47,759 world. 435 00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:52,400 SPEAKER_02: And Professor Cotter, the question is how you 436 00:32:52,559 --> 00:32:56,400 highlighted beautifully that there is an element in human 437 00:32:56,400 --> 00:33:00,559 nature in creating this sense of urgency, we need to appeal to 438 00:33:00,559 --> 00:33:04,000 the thrive rather than push people into survive. 439 00:33:04,319 --> 00:33:09,599 That modern organizations need to be rethought with respect to 440 00:33:09,599 --> 00:33:13,920 greater leadership and less management structures, and that 441 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:16,799 we need leadership all across the organization. 442 00:33:17,279 --> 00:33:22,319 So, as leaders are listening to you, what do they need to do to 443 00:33:22,319 --> 00:33:26,559 make that a reality within their organizations to have more 444 00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:31,519 people lead the way you say it takes to lead change in the 445 00:33:31,519 --> 00:33:32,160 organization? 446 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:37,920 SPEAKER_01: Start small and let it grow organically. 447 00:33:38,559 --> 00:33:46,559 Do not put together a plan with 96 PowerPoint slides that will 448 00:33:46,559 --> 00:33:48,799 put all your people to sleep. 449 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:50,160 Seriously. 450 00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:51,519 Start with yourself. 451 00:33:51,759 --> 00:33:57,440 As next, what do you think are the big opportunities that your 452 00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:03,279 department or your division or your company how well are you 453 00:34:03,519 --> 00:34:06,880 moving to take advantage of those opportunities? 454 00:34:07,519 --> 00:34:12,400 The answer, if you're honest, will be not as fast or as well 455 00:34:12,639 --> 00:34:19,360 as you could, then all right, how can we get some discussion 456 00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:24,159 going about that and not just about problems? 457 00:34:25,039 --> 00:34:30,719 Not to ignore problems, that's not the point, but more 458 00:34:31,039 --> 00:34:37,039 communication and more dialogue and more hallway chatter on 459 00:34:37,199 --> 00:34:42,079 opportunity for us, then see who reacts to that. 460 00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:47,119 Everybody won't react in an enthusiastic and positive way. 461 00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:48,400 That's okay. 462 00:34:48,639 --> 00:34:52,960 For those who do, allow them into the discussion. 463 00:34:53,280 --> 00:35:01,360 Form informal network groups that start looking for ways to 464 00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:05,039 move projects along faster and better. 465 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:12,559 Don't stifle them with rules and how to run the task force or 466 00:35:12,559 --> 00:35:13,119 whatever. 467 00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:16,079 Let it be more organic. 468 00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:23,039 Be very careful to make sure that they actually do achieve 469 00:35:23,039 --> 00:35:23,599 something. 470 00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:29,039 One of the things that we do at the Selling Firm is show people 471 00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:35,280 how you can mobilize a group of people in 90 days to achieve 472 00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:37,760 much more than they believe is possible. 473 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:43,519 And how that builds momentum, creates credibility, pulls more 474 00:35:43,519 --> 00:35:44,800 people into this. 475 00:35:45,199 -->

00:35:50,000 Now you're getting a kind of a mass movement around whatever 476 00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:51,679 the initiative is. 477 00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:57,519 There's no reason that everybody has to be brought in at the 478 00:35:57,519 --> 00:35:58,079 beginning. 479 00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:00,400 That's just not natural. 480 00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:02,800 Innovation comes for first. 481 00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:04,480 We know that. 482 00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:08,079 When we set up guiding coalitions, what we call guiding 483 00:36:08,079 --> 00:36:14,159 coalitions, we always want to have a senior exec and an 484 00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:16,239 executive assistant. 485 00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:20,159 It's awkward at first because they're not used to being in the 486 00:36:20,159 --> 00:36:22,079 same media as peers. 487 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:25,360 But you can teach people to do that. 488 00:36:25,519 --> 00:36:29,760 And once they get used to it, it's so human, it's so natural. 489 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:34,719 They like it, and they can start interacting in a new way with 490 00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:38,800 new information, better information flows, which means 491 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:40,000 more innovation. 492 00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:45,440 The fact that they're doing it and it's their ideas, they get 493 00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:47,840 it more and more excited about it. 494 00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:53,840 Again, as you guide to make sure that they achieve something that 495 00:36:53,840 --> 00:37:00,719 will start to squell skepticism and start to get more people 496 00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:04,159 excited, you start to bill and you bill. 497 00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:10,559 And over a period of time, you go from maybe at first three 498 00:37:10,559 --> 00:37:16,559 people are providing leadership on this big opportunity to a 499 00:37:16,559 --> 00:37:19,920 time when hundreds or more are. 500 00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:25,920 I mean, the data is so clear when you look at how much the 501 00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:30,079 rate, volatility, complexity of change. 502 00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:36,079 It's been going up for 200 years with a big blip in the last 50 503 00:37:36,079 --> 00:37:40,639 years, and now in the last two, of course, COVID has thrown all 504 00:37:40,639 --> 00:37:43,920 kinds of wild challenges at us. 505 00:37:44,159 --> 00:37:48,480 Who knows what will be the next thing in the produce spike? 506 00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:53,840 But the curve is that one, and building change muscle, if you 507 00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:56,960 will, inside a firm is essential. 508 00:37:57,519 --> 00:38:02,079 And it can be done by actually doing it. 509 00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:09,119 Number one, watch out for people who are selling you a blueprint 510 00:38:09,119 --> 00:38:13,599 of exactly the way it should be in five years because nobody 511 00:38:13,599 --> 00:38:14,239 knows. 512 00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:19,519 The name of the game is learning, trying things that

are 513 00:38:19,519 --> 00:38:24,320 intelligent, which will require change always, and leadership. 514 00:38:24,639 --> 00:38:27,119 Learning, evolving. 515 00:38:27,519 --> 00:38:32,480 Number two, taking a look at what you're doing that you 516 00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:35,440 didn't do before the pandemic. 517 00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:41,920 And making sure that it works better, and making sure you 518 00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:45,760 don't lose this when you go back to work. 519 00:38:46,559 --> 00:38:51,280 Companies are going to kind of stumble upon some habits that 520 00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:54,639 are actually better the way we used to work. 521 00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:56,960 We don't want to go back to that. 522 00:38:57,599 --> 00:39:05,280 Three, be very careful that you don't pull back with the real 523 00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:10,480 estate and the face-to-face interaction and the normal way 524 00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:12,159 we have meetings, etc. 525 00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:18,880 Some methods of operating that you should have probably gotten 526 00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:23,679 rid of ten years ago, that the pandemic forced you out of, but 527 00:39:23,679 --> 00:39:28,239 never underestimate the power of history of pulling things back 528 00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:29,440 the way they were. 529 00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:37,039 And search relentlessly for the opportunities that this awful 530 00:39:37,039 --> 00:39:39,599 two years presents to you. 531 00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:44,880 I have yet to see the business that I've had a chance to look 532 00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:46,559 at innate detail. 533 00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:55,840 One arena of activity that is open to them today for great 534 00:39:55,840 --> 00:40:00,880 promise that literally was not available two years ago because 535 00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:02,559 of the conditions then. 536 00:40:03,199 --> 00:40:07,679 Everybody should be looking for those opportunities and getting 537 00:40:07,679 --> 00:40:10,719 their people to focus on them. 538 00:40:11,039 --> 00:40:19,840 And finally, we've got to start using the time when we quote go 539 00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:24,880 back to work, which is going to require some changes, as not 540 00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:31,920 only a time to make intelligent changes, but as a way of 541 00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:35,599 practicing building our change muscle. 542 00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:41,119 Because we all need to have firms with greater change 543 00:40:41,119 --> 00:40:47,360 muscle, which relates to more people providing more leadership 544 00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:49,039 for better results. 545 00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:54,159 To go back to the very first thing I said on this, I can see 546 00:40:54,159 --> 00:40:57,679 it coming because I've seen some articles recently. 547 00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:01,679 The future of work, here's what it's going to look like in four 548 00:41:01,679 --> 00:41:02,159 years. 549 00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:04,000 Nobody knows. 550 00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:05,360 That's okay. 551 00:41:05,519 --> 00:41:06,880 Don't be afraid of that. 552 00:41:07,039 --> 00:41:11,039 As a matter of fact, the fact that nobody knows means your 553 00:41:11,039 --> 00:41:12,800 competition doesn't know ether. 554 00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:18,159 The name of the game is Evolving, Changing, Learning, 555 00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:23,039 and not making negative assumptions. 556 00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:27,679 Again, if you look at the big picture over the last 200 years, 557 00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:31,679 humanity has made unbelievable progress. 558 00:41:33,119 --> 00:41:40,559 There is no reason why that kind of progress, if we handle our 559 00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:45,760 organizations, businesses, and governments can't continue for 560 00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:50,079 another 200 or 400 or 600 years. 561 00:41:50,639 --> 00:41:55,599 I think the possibilities for the human race and for my 562 00:41:55,599 --> 00:42:00,159 children, your children, our grandchildren are absolute 563 00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:01,280 fantastic. 564 00:42:01,599 --> 00:42:02,000 SPEAKER_02: They are. 565 00:43:16,079 --> 00:43:19,840 SPEAKER_01: And it's with some text about his life, pictures 566 00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:26,320 from his life, on the first page, which is blank, in shaky 567 00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:32,719 handwriting, is a note from Nelson Mandela to me. 568 00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:38,800 It's a long story about what created that, but it reminds me 569 00:43:39,119 --> 00:43:45,760 that his autobiography is one of the great books, I think, of all 570 00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:50,719 time in helping us to understand something about leadership. 571 00:43:51,039 --> 00:43:56,480 There is so much in there that you can pick up about the way a 572 00:43:56,480 --> 00:44:01,119 person like that thinks and the way he treats other people, the 573 00:44:01,119 --> 00:44:04,000 way he goes after opportunities. 574 00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:06,480 It's a marvelous book to read. 575 00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:09,599 SPEAKER_02: So, Professor Cotter, what's the best way for 576 00:44:09,599 --> 00:44:14,239 the audience to find out more about your own consulting firm 577 00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:18,000 that you have in addition to your books and other resources? 578 00:44:18,559 --> 00:44:18,880 SPEAKER_01: Okay. 579 00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:28,880 If you go to www.cotter Inc., so it's K-O-T-T-E-R-I-N-C.com, you 580 00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:33,599 will find a lot of free resources and stories from the 581 00:44:33,599 --> 00:44:36,480 feedback we've got can be very helpful. 582 00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:38,079 This is the new book. 583 00:44:38,159 --> 00:44:45,840 It's only been out two months, and it has the latest of the 584 00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:51,199 studies and the recommendations and the stories for my work. 585 00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:55,599 And that's available through regular book sources. 586 00:44:56,239 --> 00:44:58,559 SPEAKER_02: Professor Connor, as I mentioned at the beginning, 587 00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:01,440 you have contributed significantly to our 588 00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:04,480 understanding of change over the years. 589 00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:09,280 And I've studied a lot of your work, both in leading 590 00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:14,000 organizations and now in guiding organizations, in coaching them 591 00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:15,280 and consulting with them. 592 00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:16,559 So I appreciate that. 593 00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:19,679 And I most especially appreciate this new book, Change, How 594 00:45:19,679 --> 00:45:23,440 Organizations Achieve Hard to Imagine Results in Uncertain and 595 00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:28,000 Volatile Times, which we do live in, primarily because, as I 596 00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:32,079 mentioned to you, I hadn't married the concept of the 597 00:45:32,079 --> 00:45:36,800 urgency with the need for it to be a positive urgency as much. 598 00:45:37,039 --> 00:45:39,199 And that really resonated. 599 00:45:39,599 --> 00:45:44,480 And the difficulty, but the necessity to have leadership at 600 00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:49,280 all levels, it is not just at the senior or most executive 601 00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:49,760 levels. 602 00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:53,840 Those will be the organizations that survive and thrive into the 603 00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:54,239 future. 604 00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:58,639 So I truly appreciate all of your contributions over the 605 00:45:58,639 --> 00:46:02,960 years and taking your time to share some of your thoughts in 606 00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:05,840 this brilliant book and in the partnering leadership 607 00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:06,400 conversation. 608 00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:09,039 Thank you so much, Professor John Cotter. 609 00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:10,880 SPEAKER_01: It has been my pleasure. 610 00:46:11,039 --> 00:46:12,480 Keep up the good work. 611 00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:14,719 SPEAKER_00: You have been listening to Partnering 612 00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:17,039 Leadership with your host, Mohammed Tavakoli. 613 00:46:17,599 --> 00:46:20,639 If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a rating and review 614 00:46:20,639 --> 00:46:24,480 of the podcast on your favorite podcasting app and forward the 615 00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:27,760 conversation to a friend or colleague so you can help more 616 00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:30,800 people discover their purpose, grow professionally with 617 00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:33,119 meaning, and have a greater impact. 618 00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:36,400 For additional leadership insights and bonus content, 619 00:46:36,559 --> 00:46:39,519 visit us at partneringleadership.com