התמלול המלא של Kris Kobach on In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants and Noncitizen Voting

Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996. 35 00:02:03.920 --> 00:02:07.900 And that statute is found at Title VIII, Section 1623 36 00:02:07.900 --> 00:02:12.610 of the United States Code. And it's a short extended sentence. 37 00:02:12.669 --> 00:02:16.219 And it simply says, no state can grant in so 38 00:02:16.240 --> 00:02:21.400 many words, resident tuition rates to an alien unlawfully present 39 00:02:21.439 --> 00:02:23.919 in the United States, unless it gives the same tuition 40 00:02:24.599 --> 00:02:29.259 rate to every U.S. citizen in the country. And Congress 41 00:02:29.520 --> 00:02:33.349 in the hearings and in the congressional record said, the 42 00:02:33.389 --> 00:02:35.669 reason we're doing this is we want to stop states 43 00:02:35.689 --> 00:02:38.889 giving in-state tuition to illegal aliens. And at that point 44 00:02:39.330 --> 00:02:42.250 in 1996, I think the only state that was openly 45 00:02:42.289 --> 00:02:46.409 considering it was California. Right. So anyway, it's very clear 46 00:02:46.590 --> 00:02:49.550 you can't do it. So when I brought that lawsuit 47 00:02:49.569 --> 00:02:54.349 as a private attorney against the state of Kansas, the 48 00:02:54.389 --> 00:02:56.340 judge said, well, you don't have standing. You might be right, 49 00:02:56.360 --> 00:02:59.360 but you don't have standing. OK, so fast forward in 50 00:02:59.819 --> 00:03:02.879 lawsuits in Texas and in other places usually came to 51 00:03:02.919 --> 00:03:05.719 the same result. There are a few outliers, but none 52 00:03:05.759 --> 00:03:07.930 of them held that the none of the suits in 53 00:03:07.949 --> 00:03:10.569 federal court held that students had standing to challenge this. 54 00:03:11.009 --> 00:03:13.509 Fast forward, the Trump administration comes into office for the 55 00:03:13.569 --> 00:03:18.449 second time. And the new Trump DOJ is well aware 56 00:03:18.490 --> 00:03:21.550 of this issue, is well aware that the only party 57 00:03:21.830 --> 00:03:25.050 who has standing to stop these illegal state laws is 58 00:03:25.090 --> 00:03:29.069 the United States government itself. And so they began suing 59 00:03:29.550 --> 00:03:33.520 the various states that have adopted this policy. Now, there's 60 00:03:33.639 --> 00:03:36.620 one more thing that listeners should know about, and that is... 61 00:03:37.629 --> 00:03:39.210 why did the states do this? Now, some of them 62 00:03:39.229 --> 00:03:42.810 were just liberal states, states that wanted to give all 63 00:03:42.849 --> 00:03:46.379 kinds of benefits to illegal immigrants. But states like Kansas 64 00:03:46.680 --> 00:03:50.759 and Nebraska were sold a bill of goods by lobbyists 65 00:03:50.900 --> 00:03:54.580 for illegal immigration who came in and said, hey, Congress 66 00:03:54.620 --> 00:03:57.439 is about to pass the DREAM Act. And this DREAM 67 00:03:57.539 --> 00:03:59.979 Act is going to get rid of the old 1996 68 00:03:59.979 --> 00:04:02.750 law and is going

to give a pathway to citizenship 69 00:04:02.759 --> 00:04:06.560 to all of these illegal aliens attending high schools and 70 00:04:06.599 --> 00:04:10.069 universities in America. And so you should just pass a 71 00:04:10.150 --> 00:04:13.449 state law giving them in-state tuition as well. That was 72 00:04:13.530 --> 00:04:18.149 the bill of goods that was falsely offered to the states. 73 00:04:18.509 --> 00:04:21.589 They went ahead and passed their in-state tuition laws. But 74 00:04:21.689 --> 00:04:24.910 of course, the DREAM Act never passed in Congress. And 75 00:04:24.970 --> 00:04:28.029 so you have these blatantly illegal laws on the books. Anyway, 76 00:04:28.069 --> 00:04:31.829 fast forward, Trump's DOJ over the course of the past 77 00:04:31.829 --> 00:04:34.910 12 months has started suing state after state after state. 78 00:04:35.509 --> 00:04:38.529 And in many cases, like in Kansas, as an attorney general, 79 00:04:38.610 --> 00:04:40.810 I'd already issued an opinion saying this is a law 80 00:04:40.850 --> 00:04:43.860 that is clearly in violation of federal law. It cannot 81 00:04:43.939 --> 00:04:47.060 stand if it is ever challenged in court by a 82 00:04:47.100 --> 00:04:50.259 party that has standing. And that's exactly what happened. Kansas 83 00:04:50.300 --> 00:04:52.379 was not the first. We were probably about the seventh 84 00:04:52.519 --> 00:04:56.310 state that was challenged. I had hoped that our legislature 85 00:04:56.370 --> 00:04:59.569 would just fix the situation. I warned them earlier this 86 00:04:59.610 --> 00:05:03.050 year that a suit is likely coming. And we had 87 00:05:03.089 --> 00:05:05.769 a majority of the Republican legislature vote to repeal the 88 00:05:05.810 --> 00:05:09.709 in-state tuition provision, giving that benefit to illegal aliens. But 89 00:05:09.750 --> 00:05:11.860 we didn't have the supermajority because we have a Democrat 90 00:05:11.889 --> 00:05:14.220 governor who vetoed it. Interesting. 91 00:05:14.540 --> 00:05:17.560 Just to interrupt you, this is sort of a technical question, 92 00:05:17.579 --> 00:05:23.339 but I think it's important. Why does the DOJ have standing? 93 00:05:23.740 --> 00:05:26.439 Yeah, because the Department of Justice has authority to enforce 94 00:05:27.019 --> 00:05:29.879 federal law. And so it's federal law that's being violated. 95 00:05:29.899 --> 00:05:36.009 The DOJ United States government's constitutional authority is being checked 96 00:05:36.069 --> 00:05:39.899 by a state, which is clearly under the supremacy clause. 97 00:05:40.439 --> 00:05:44.360 The federal law under our constitution prevails over state law, 98 00:05:44.379 --> 00:05:46.680 assuming the feds have power in this area, which they do. 99 00:05:47.620 --> 00:05:50.879 And yeah, so they are an injured party. They are 100 00:05:50.930 --> 00:05:54.430 the only injured party, apparently, who can write this wrong. 101 00:05:54.810 --> 00:05:57.930 So is the provision say

that the states just can't 102 00:05:58.009 --> 00:06:01.509 do it? Or that they would be denied certain funding 103 00:06:01.589 --> 00:06:03.829 if they did it because that's often the tool that 104 00:06:03.850 --> 00:06:05.329 the feds use. 105 00:06:05.569 --> 00:06:08.149 No, it's not a use of the spending power denying funding. 106 00:06:08.610 --> 00:06:13.240 It just says no state shall. Interesting. Okay. Back in 107 00:06:13.250 --> 00:06:17.800 the 90s, Congress thought correctly, if you pass a federal 108 00:06:17.839 --> 00:06:20.000 law saying the states can't do something, they won't do it. 109 00:06:20.720 --> 00:06:23.300 But that was 30 years ago. 110 00:06:23.560 --> 00:06:25.079 Now who's being naive, Kay? 111 00:06:25.500 --> 00:06:28.980 Yeah, exactly. So, you know, we have all these states, 112 00:06:29.040 --> 00:06:33.000 especially these hardcore leftist states that are just, you know, 113 00:06:33.019 --> 00:06:35.610 they just don't care. They will defy the federal government 114 00:06:35.949 --> 00:06:38.230 whenever they think it's politically expedient. 115 00:06:38.629 --> 00:06:41.750 And so this was part of the whole Dream Act push, right? 116 00:06:41.790 --> 00:06:44.350 In other words, you specifically referred to that. But I mean, 117 00:06:44.370 --> 00:06:48.250 that's kind of the political background of it is they 118 00:06:48.290 --> 00:06:51.379 were trying to do this Because they were, you know, 119 00:06:51.579 --> 00:06:55.180 using the kind of sympathetic young people who brought grown 120 00:06:55.240 --> 00:06:56.759 up in the United States and all of that. 121 00:06:57.699 --> 00:07:00.439 Exactly. Yeah. And, you know, you think about it so 122 00:07:00.500 --> 00:07:02.939 much has been, you know, of course, the DACA program 123 00:07:03.410 --> 00:07:06.149 started by President Obama. And all of these things are 124 00:07:06.269 --> 00:07:11.189 all based on this, you know, sympathetic, hypothetical, illegal alien who, 125 00:07:11.550 --> 00:07:14.470 you know, came here through no will of his own. Right. Etcetera. 126 00:07:14.980 --> 00:07:19.720 But anyway, it was blatantly illegal and frankly immoral or 127 00:07:20.540 --> 00:07:23.600 I think really bad policy because never should a US citizen, 128 00:07:24.259 --> 00:07:26.839 even if he comes from the neighboring state, never should 129 00:07:26.860 --> 00:07:29.279 a US citizen pay three times as much in tuition 130 00:07:29.779 --> 00:07:32.399 than an illegal alien, nevermind the fact that it breaks 131 00:07:32.439 --> 00:07:34.810 federal law for a state to do this. So anyway, 132 00:07:35.620 --> 00:07:38.269 Kansas is one of several states that was sued in 133 00:07:38.269 --> 00:07:42.149 2026 by the Trump administration. The interesting posture of this 134 00:07:42.290 --> 00:07:45.879 is normally, you know, an attorney general might have a 135 00:07:45.939 --> 00:07:50.339 duty to defend a state statute in this situation. However, 136 00:07:50.920 --> 00:07:53.620 there is a futility doctrine in federal courts. And that 137 00:07:53.660 --> 00:07:55.879 is when it's, when it is obvious that the state 138 00:07:56.339 --> 00:07:59.389 is violating the constitution or federal law, then it is 139 00:07:59.449 --> 00:08:02.329 futile to defend it. And not only does an attorney 140 00:08:02.370 --> 00:08:05.170 general not have a duty to defend a statute that 141 00:08:05.230 --> 00:08:09.470 is indefensible, the governor, the Democrat governor tried to intervene 142 00:08:09.750 --> 00:08:12.639 and defend this statute. And the court said, that based 143 00:08:12.680 --> 00:08:15.220 on the futility doctrine, she could not intervene and try 144 00:08:15.240 --> 00:08:18.699 to defend it either. An analogy might be if a 145 00:08:18.819 --> 00:08:21.589 state had a statute on the books that, you know, 146 00:08:21.629 --> 00:08:24.629 discriminated on the basis of race and said members of 147 00:08:24.769 --> 00:08:27.730 one race are eligible to be on the state commission, 148 00:08:28.089 --> 00:08:31.490 but members of another race are not eligible. And that is, 149 00:08:31.550 --> 00:08:34.899 by the way, not a purely hypothetical example. 150 00:08:34.940 --> 00:08:35.080 Right. 151 00:08:35.419 --> 00:08:39.039 And so that would be indefensible as well. Every attorney 152 00:08:39.120 --> 00:08:40.970 who has kept up this constitutional law. 153 00:08:41.309 --> 00:08:44.129 Just on that point, is there Kansas law that would 154 00:08:44.149 --> 00:08:45.840 have required you to defend it? 155 00:08:46.570 --> 00:08:49.909 No, there's no Kansas law. It's just sort of generally 156 00:08:49.950 --> 00:08:54.460 a tradition that normally in 99% of the cases, an 157 00:08:55.379 --> 00:08:57.879 attorney general would defend a state statute. But when a 158 00:08:57.919 --> 00:09:02.539 statute is clearly, there's no good argument, at least in 159 00:09:02.559 --> 00:09:07.399 the Kansas statute. It was obviously facially violating federal law. 160 00:09:07.919 --> 00:09:11.080 And the judge found that. The federal judge, she ruled that, yeah, 161 00:09:11.100 --> 00:09:12.899 this thing. And she went through looking at the text 162 00:09:12.940 --> 00:09:14.529 of the federal law and the state statute. So it 163 00:09:14.590 --> 00:09:17.090 is obviously in violation of the law. It would be 164 00:09:17.149 --> 00:09:19.429 futile to attempt to defend it. And the governor may 165 00:09:19.450 --> 00:09:20.529 not attempt to defend it either. 166 00:09:20.970 --> 00:09:23.649 Who are the lawyers who showed up on the other side? 167 00:09:23.669 --> 00:09:25.590 I mean, if it wasn't you, and I assume it 168 00:09:25.610 --> 00:09:27.840 wasn't the solicitor general of the state or something. In 169 00:09:27.860 --> 00:09:31.200 other words, did the state universities hire a lawyer who showed. 170 00:09:31.019 --> 00:09:33.519 Up in court? Well, it was all done on the

briefs. 171 00:09:33.779 --> 00:09:34.460 So I see. 172 00:09:34.600 --> 00:09:35.679 OK, well, who wrote the briefs? 173 00:09:36.379 --> 00:09:40.429 The counsel for the governor wrote some of the briefs, 174 00:09:40.669 --> 00:09:45.610 and there was also a private organization representing some of 175 00:09:45.669 --> 00:09:48.669 the illegal aliens who were getting in-state tuition. They also 176 00:09:48.690 --> 00:09:52.690 attempted to intervene, and the judge denied them intervention as well. Again, 177 00:09:53.009 --> 00:09:54.529 on the grounds that it would be futile, the judge 178 00:09:54.570 --> 00:09:56.929 went through, looked at the statute, said this is obviously 179 00:09:56.970 --> 00:10:00.440 in conflict. It would be futile to defend this. Yeah. Interesting. 180 00:10:00.559 --> 00:10:04.080 So you won at the district court level, right? In 181 00:10:04.100 --> 00:10:06.200 other words, the DOJ won, basically. 182 00:10:06.840 --> 00:10:09.179 Yeah. And I don't think there's likely to be any 183 00:10:09.240 --> 00:10:13.159 appeal on this. We haven't heard. And indeed, to do that, 184 00:10:13.820 --> 00:10:18.169 the governor or the private organization would have to overcome 185 00:10:18.899 --> 00:10:21.779 the fact that they were denied intervention too. So they 186 00:10:22.019 --> 00:10:23.679 would have to win that they get to intervene and 187 00:10:23.700 --> 00:10:25.740 they would have to win on the merits, which is 188 00:10:25.820 --> 00:10:30.179 highly unlikely given how obviously it is that the Kansas 189 00:10:30.220 --> 00:10:31.620 law violates the federal law. 190 00:10:32.259 --> 00:10:35.820 So you said a number of other states that had, 191 00:10:35.980 --> 00:10:38.919 you know, the cases had moved along with regard to 192 00:10:38.940 --> 00:10:41.419 a number of other states. Have you followed like how 193 00:10:41.480 --> 00:10:43.259 the progress of that has gone? 194 00:10:43.720 --> 00:10:46.340 Yeah. So, you know, for example, some of the earlier 195 00:10:46.379 --> 00:10:50.409 states that were sued, Texas, was sued and acknowledged. The 196 00:10:50.450 --> 00:10:54.169 Texas Attorney General's Office acknowledged that their law was in 197 00:10:54.210 --> 00:10:57.690 violation of federal law. Kentucky was sued, and the Kentucky 198 00:10:57.730 --> 00:11:01.500 Attorney General similarly acknowledged that their law was obviously in 199 00:11:01.509 --> 00:11:05.440 violation of federal law. But in some of the states, 200 00:11:05.899 --> 00:11:09.879 the blue states, the Attorney General tried to mount a 201 00:11:09.899 --> 00:11:14.779 defense with varying success. In Minnesota, at least at the 202 00:11:14.820 --> 00:11:17.000 district court level, although I think that's going to change 203 00:11:17.299 --> 00:11:22.059 on the appellate, the the Minnesota district judge said that 204 00:11:22.139 --> 00:11:25.980 the Minnesota law could survive. However, the Minnesota law is 205 00:11:27.019 --> 00:11:32.799 different in its wording and doesn't include some obviously illegal 206 00:11:33.299 --> 00:11:36.730 slash unconstitutional provisions like the Kansas and Texas laws do. 207 00:11:37.259 --> 00:11:40.690 And so it was a different law, but Minnesota is 208 00:11:40.710 --> 00:11:46.190 still in flux. Virginia, as we've been discussing, is also 209 00:11:46.250 --> 00:11:48.409 in flux. But I think at the end of the day, 210 00:11:48.450 --> 00:11:51.090 there might be one or two of these laws that 211 00:11:51.149 --> 00:11:57.620 were drafted craftily enough to avoid smacking into the federal statute. 212 00:11:58.200 --> 00:12:01.820 But the vast majority, if not all of them, will 213 00:12:02.039 --> 00:12:04.019 be struck down either by the district court or on appeal. 214 00:12:04.659 --> 00:12:06.679 And I don't want to get too much into the 215 00:12:06.759 --> 00:12:10.750 wording of the different statutes, but there is some sophistry here. 216 00:12:10.779 --> 00:12:13.629 In other words, some of them have tried to kind 217 00:12:13.669 --> 00:12:17.519 of dance around and say that It's not based on 218 00:12:17.600 --> 00:12:20.700 the residency of the illegal immigrant. It's based on whether 219 00:12:20.720 --> 00:12:24.220 they've gone to high school in the state and even 220 00:12:24.259 --> 00:12:27.019 if they lived in another state. In other words, there 221 00:12:27.059 --> 00:12:30.039 are games like that some of the states have played. 222 00:12:30.220 --> 00:12:30.700 Are there not? 223 00:12:31.080 --> 00:12:33.120 Yeah, all of them play that initial game. They all 224 00:12:33.139 --> 00:12:37.210 play the game. Well, it's based on whether you attend 225 00:12:37.230 --> 00:12:41.389 high school or attending high school is a criterion in 226 00:12:41.429 --> 00:12:45.309 addition to being a resident of the state. But for example, 227 00:12:45.350 --> 00:12:49.529 in Kansas, the way the statute was worded is basically 228 00:12:49.590 --> 00:12:52.610 as follows. If you attend high school in our state, 229 00:12:52.669 --> 00:12:55.769 you will be deemed a resident for the purposes of 230 00:12:55.850 --> 00:13:00.509 college tuition. So they still hinge it on residents. The 231 00:13:00.549 --> 00:13:05.389 Kansas one, obviously, even though they tried to sort of 232 00:13:05.450 --> 00:13:09.529 dodge the federal statute, obviously, it is unconstitutional and in 233 00:13:09.549 --> 00:13:12.009 violation of the federal statute. Interesting. 234 00:13:12.049 --> 00:13:16.039 Now, if one or two states do win Doesn't mean 235 00:13:16.059 --> 00:13:19.059 this is kind of speculation to the future. What does 236 00:13:19.100 --> 00:13:23.019 that suggest about other blue states that have lost? It 237 00:13:23.059 --> 00:13:24.860 seems to me if I were those guys, I would 238 00:13:24.879 --> 00:13:26.820 call them up and say, OK, what was the exact 239 00:13:26.879 --> 00:13:30.419 wording of

your statute? And let's repass the law with 240 00:13:30.440 --> 00:13:31.039 that wording. 241 00:13:31.220 --> 00:13:31.740 See what I mean? 242 00:13:31.779 --> 00:13:34.590 So in other words, a certain whack-a-mole element to this, 243 00:13:34.659 --> 00:13:35.139 is there not? 244 00:13:35.899 --> 00:13:39.929 There could be. If blue states that have lost to 245 00:13:39.970 --> 00:13:43.509 the Department of Justice want to try to do a 246 00:13:43.529 --> 00:13:46.470 carbon copy of another state that won, Of course, remember, 247 00:13:46.509 --> 00:13:50.129 these states are in different federal circuits, and just because 248 00:13:50.169 --> 00:13:52.190 a state prevails somewhere doesn't mean that a state across 249 00:13:52.230 --> 00:13:54.870 the country is going to have the same lock in 250 00:13:54.909 --> 00:13:55.850 front of a circuit court. 251 00:13:56.470 --> 00:13:58.230 And this isn't the kind of thing that would get 252 00:13:58.330 --> 00:14:02.580 to the Supreme Court necessarily, is it? Because there's different 253 00:14:02.620 --> 00:14:05.919 wordings for each state law, so a circuit split isn't 254 00:14:06.000 --> 00:14:09.980 really meaningful in the same way, or am I misunderstanding that? 255 00:14:10.429 --> 00:14:12.750 No, I think you're probably right. I also, you know, 256 00:14:12.950 --> 00:14:15.309 the Supreme Court looks for circuit splits on the same 257 00:14:15.350 --> 00:14:18.289 statute or virtually the same statute. Right. You know, I 258 00:14:18.330 --> 00:14:21.240 think also that the Supreme Court might look at the 259 00:14:21.620 --> 00:14:24.559 landscape and say, OK, you know, let's let's imagine a 260 00:14:24.600 --> 00:14:27.059 dozen states have been sued and 10 out of 12 261 00:14:27.059 --> 00:14:30.139 have already acknowledged, you know, it's been settled that they 262 00:14:30.320 --> 00:14:32.720 were violation of federal law and the offending state law 263 00:14:33.179 --> 00:14:35.570 is repealed. The Supreme Court might say, well, there's only 264 00:14:35.610 --> 00:14:37.110 two states in the country that are at stake at 265 00:14:37.129 --> 00:14:39.110 this point. We might– we don't want to weigh in. 266 00:14:39.129 --> 00:14:41.549 The Supreme Court is always looking to add value and 267 00:14:41.850 --> 00:14:45.580 they're very parsimonious in when they decide to grant cert 268 00:14:45.700 --> 00:14:46.509 and hear a case. 269 00:14:46.629 --> 00:14:49.460 This is only so many hours in a day, right? 270 00:14:49.779 --> 00:14:49.960 Yeah. 271 00:14:50.000 --> 00:14:55.159 Interesting. And so to get a little sort of 30,000 feet-ish, 272 00:14:56.100 --> 00:15:00.360 why wouldn't we give in-state tuition to illegal aliens? I 273 00:15:00.399 --> 00:15:02.639 mean I'm against it too, but I mean I think 274 00:15:02.679 --> 00:15:05.649 it's something that's worth– kind of explaining rather than just 275 00:15:05.690 --> 00:15:08.929 sort of assuming people know why,

you know? 276 00:15:09.389 --> 00:15:12.820 Well, I'll give you the numbers in Kansas. So to 277 00:15:12.860 --> 00:15:17.519 go to Kansas university tuition alone, if you're a resident 278 00:15:17.779 --> 00:15:19.580 in state tuition is about $ 11, 000 a year. 279 00:15:19.600 --> 00:15:19.840 Okay. 280 00:15:19.899 --> 00:15:22.440 And if you're a non-resident, it's about $ 31, 000 a year. 281 00:15:22.480 --> 00:15:31.450 And so almost three times as much. And you're basically 282 00:15:31.669 --> 00:15:34.450 treating a U.S. citizen who might live just one mile 283 00:15:34.529 --> 00:15:38.299 over the border differently than you're treating them worse than 284 00:15:38.320 --> 00:15:40.659 an illegal alien who actually has no right to even 285 00:15:41.460 --> 00:15:43.759 be at the university because they're not supposed to be 286 00:15:43.940 --> 00:15:47.320 in the country. So it's the principle of always treating U.S. 287 00:15:47.379 --> 00:15:53.370 citizens at least equally, but certainly not worse. Yes, you 288 00:15:53.570 --> 00:15:55.889 should treat U.S. citizens worse. I mean, this is, you know, 289 00:15:55.929 --> 00:15:58.909 this is philosophically and just as a You know, a 290 00:15:58.970 --> 00:16:01.789 principle of common sense, a country should treat its own 291 00:16:01.870 --> 00:16:06.470 citizens better than it treats both legal and illegal aliens, frankly, 292 00:16:07.149 --> 00:16:08.929 in terms of benefits. I mean, there are some areas 293 00:16:08.970 --> 00:16:11.570 where legal aliens and U.S. citizens must be treated the 294 00:16:11.610 --> 00:16:14.970 same under law. But in terms of handing out a goodie, 295 00:16:16.090 --> 00:16:20.429 you would not treat illegal aliens better than U.S. citizens. 296 00:16:20.450 --> 00:16:23.110 So anyway, that's the principle. I mean, the amount of 297 00:16:23.169 --> 00:16:26.470 money is not insignificant as well. In Kansas, you know, 298 00:16:26.549 --> 00:16:29.269 the law was in place for 22 years. You know, 299 00:16:29.309 --> 00:16:33.789 in any given year, there would be between 300 and 300 00:16:33.789 --> 00:16:36.899 400 illegal aliens, you know, using this benefit and the 301 00:16:36.960 --> 00:16:40.139 taxpayers pay for it. So you're talking about, you know, 302 00:16:40.159 --> 00:16:43.019 an extra, you know, the taxpayer footing the bill for 303 00:16:43.259 --> 00:16:46.700 whatever it is. Back then, it wouldn't have been a $ 20, 000 Delta. 304 00:16:46.740 --> 00:16:48.759 It might have been, you know, a $ 15, 000 Delta or 305 00:16:49.159 --> 00:16:53.360 a $ 10, 000 Delta. But whatever, the taxpayers, you know, paying $ 15, 000 306 00:16:53.230 --> 00:16:54.230 for 300 people. 307 00:16:54.789 --> 00:16:54.990 Right. 308 00:16:55.070 --> 00:16:57.309 It's not insignificant. So there's that factor, too. 309 00:16:57.909 --> 00:16:59.769 And it seems to me even there's a kind of, 310 00:17:00.009 --> 00:17:04.109 I mean, it's a philosophical issue, but it's almost like 311 00:17:04.430 --> 00:17:07.970 a constitutional, not in the suspense of the wording of 312 00:17:07.990 --> 00:17:11.130 the Constitution. But the question is, Constitution starts, we the 313 00:17:11.170 --> 00:17:12.039 people of the United States. 314 00:17:12.059 --> 00:17:12.940 Well, who are we the people? 315 00:17:13.380 --> 00:17:17.680 I mean, this push is driven by this idea that 316 00:17:18.599 --> 00:17:22.240 legal status doesn't matter, that we the people is just 317 00:17:22.279 --> 00:17:25.640 sort of anybody who's here. And that's what's so insidious 318 00:17:25.720 --> 00:17:29.079 about it to me. And I think Yeah, the money 319 00:17:29.099 --> 00:17:32.299 is relevant. I mean obviously it's a million here, a 320 00:17:32.299 --> 00:17:33.859 million there. It begins to add up to real money 321 00:17:33.940 --> 00:17:36.900 as they say in Congress. But actually now they say 322 00:17:36.940 --> 00:17:39.509 a trillion here and a trillion there. But the principle 323 00:17:40.140 --> 00:17:43.680 isn't the money even if there were no cost to it. 324 00:17:44.190 --> 00:17:46.430 It seems to me the idea of trying to blur 325 00:17:46.470 --> 00:17:50.750 the difference between who is permitted to be here and 326 00:17:50.789 --> 00:17:54.710 who isn't and whether we through our national legislature are 327 00:17:54.789 --> 00:17:59.259 even allowed to make that decision. really just seems just 328 00:17:59.400 --> 00:18:01.359 preposterous that we would allow such a thing. 329 00:18:01.799 --> 00:18:05.259 Yeah. And I would add also that, look, this benefit 330 00:18:05.359 --> 00:18:11.029 is not a small thing. There are millions of United 331 00:18:11.049 --> 00:18:15.890 States citizens right now who are either parents or students 332 00:18:15.950 --> 00:18:17.970 about to go to college who are wringing their hands 333 00:18:18.569 --> 00:18:20.470 and trying to figure out how they're going to pay 334 00:18:20.490 --> 00:18:24.359 for college. Because as everybody knows, tuition at universities has 335 00:18:24.420 --> 00:18:29.000 not been rising at the it has been tripling, quadrupling 336 00:18:29.240 --> 00:18:32.180 the rate of inflation. And so when you're talking about 337 00:18:32.680 --> 00:18:36.349 one year of college costing the same as a small house, 338 00:18:37.730 --> 00:18:39.869 you have people who are saying, you know what, I 339 00:18:39.890 --> 00:18:42.009 can't afford it, or I'm going to try to go 340 00:18:42.029 --> 00:18:44.109 to a community college and see if I can get 341 00:18:44.130 --> 00:18:47.109 my education that way. People are, and I say this 342 00:18:47.170 --> 00:18:50.710 as a father of five daughters, one of who's finished 343 00:18:50.730 --> 00:18:53.079 college and one who's in college, and I've got three 344 00:18:53.119 --> 00:18:57.400 more to go. This is This is a real expenditure 345 00:18:57.420 --> 00:19:00.289 that many

Americans are sacrificing and they are taking their 346 00:19:00.380 --> 00:19:04.210 second choice for. And so it is a huge insult 347 00:19:04.829 --> 00:19:08.789 in this environment to then give in-state tuition rates that 348 00:19:08.849 --> 00:19:12.079 we taxpayers pay for to give them to illegal aliens. 349 00:19:12.559 --> 00:19:15.059 And I would add one more thing, Mark. On top 350 00:19:15.079 --> 00:19:17.660 of all these other reasons we've just mentioned, there's the 351 00:19:17.700 --> 00:19:21.339 incentive problem. And Congress said this back in 1996. We 352 00:19:21.450 --> 00:19:24.839 do not want to encourage illegal aliens to come to 353 00:19:24.980 --> 00:19:26.819 or to remain in the United States by giving them 354 00:19:26.880 --> 00:19:30.640 valuable public benefits. And that's following federal law, Title VIII, U.S. 355 00:19:30.660 --> 00:19:34.539 Code 1601. It explains what Congress was thinking. And this 356 00:19:34.599 --> 00:19:38.000 is a huge incentive to stay if you can get 357 00:19:38.039 --> 00:19:44.960 this massive subsidized benefit of in-state tuition if you're here illegally. Absolutely. 358 00:19:45.740 --> 00:19:48.920 You were, for a number of years, Secretary of State 359 00:19:49.019 --> 00:19:51.759 of Kansas. which at the state level, what that means 360 00:19:51.900 --> 00:19:55.200 usually is overseeing elections. And depending on the state, they 361 00:19:55.220 --> 00:19:58.599 do some other things too. Now you're Attorney General, but 362 00:19:58.720 --> 00:20:02.960 presumably you still have a role in policing voting fraud 363 00:20:03.000 --> 00:20:04.700 and that sort of thing. And this is something you've 364 00:20:04.720 --> 00:20:08.089 been involved in pretty high profile way for a long time, 365 00:20:08.150 --> 00:20:11.210 even before you were Attorney General. So What's the situation 366 00:20:11.230 --> 00:20:15.829 in Kansas with regard to non-citizen voting or related issues? 367 00:20:16.769 --> 00:20:20.210 Yeah. So I'm glad you mentioned that I was Secretary 368 00:20:20.230 --> 00:20:21.970 of State because that has a bearing on the question. 369 00:20:22.450 --> 00:20:26.289 Back in 2015, as Secretary of State, I proposed a 370 00:20:26.329 --> 00:20:30.130 statute that would allow either the Secretary of State or 371 00:20:30.190 --> 00:20:34.839 the Attorney General's office to prosecute election crimes in Kansas. 372 00:20:35.099 --> 00:20:38.519 Prior to 2015, only county attorneys could do that. And 373 00:20:38.539 --> 00:20:43.220 county attorneys... generally have little experience or expertise in election law. 374 00:20:43.720 --> 00:20:47.289 They have never prosecuted a case like that before. They 375 00:20:47.450 --> 00:20:50.650 are swamped with other stuff that's higher priority like rapes 376 00:20:50.710 --> 00:20:54.279 and assaults and homicides. And so they don't do it. 377 00:20:54.529 --> 00:20:56.970 So anyway, we passed that law in Kansas and

I 378 00:20:57.009 --> 00:21:00.470 began using that law as Secretary of State. But now 379 00:21:00.529 --> 00:21:04.130 as Attorney General, we have been finally able to get 380 00:21:04.230 --> 00:21:08.299 information from the federal government that was not available 10 381 00:21:08.299 --> 00:21:11.920 years ago. And that information is we can now run 382 00:21:12.339 --> 00:21:15.069 our voter rolls or names on our voter rolls against 383 00:21:15.119 --> 00:21:19.009 the federal databases of known aliens in the United States. 384 00:21:19.730 --> 00:21:24.490 And we have found a significant number of aliens who 385 00:21:24.650 --> 00:21:27.509 are voting, not just registering. There's a huge number who 386 00:21:27.549 --> 00:21:31.809 are registered. But there's a large number who are both 387 00:21:31.890 --> 00:21:35.250 registered and voting in the state. And as Attorney General, 388 00:21:36.069 --> 00:21:41.049 I've already... prosecuted four people. Three cases were already pled 389 00:21:41.109 --> 00:21:44.450 to a conviction. One case is still in the mix 390 00:21:44.490 --> 00:21:46.349 and we have more cases in the hopper that are 391 00:21:46.509 --> 00:21:49.710 going to be filed as well. So it's a very 392 00:21:49.789 --> 00:21:53.470 common thing for, you know, and people say, well, that's 393 00:21:53.509 --> 00:21:55.970 just four cases so far. Well, the reason it's just 394 00:21:56.009 --> 00:22:00.549 four is again, back to the issue of capacity. You know, 395 00:22:00.569 --> 00:22:02.970 we have only so many attorneys in the attorney general's 396 00:22:03.109 --> 00:22:07.660 office and each of these cases needs to be It 397 00:22:07.700 --> 00:22:10.859 doesn't just sort of present itself on paper. You have 398 00:22:10.880 --> 00:22:13.819 to assemble all the evidence. You've got to speak with 399 00:22:13.859 --> 00:22:16.599 all the counties and get the documents, the signed poll 400 00:22:16.640 --> 00:22:18.460 books where the person signed in saying that they were 401 00:22:18.480 --> 00:22:22.309 going to vote. When they registered to vote, you've got 402 00:22:22.329 --> 00:22:24.869 to get the signed document where they swore falsely that 403 00:22:24.890 --> 00:22:27.509 they were a United States citizen. Of course, you have 404 00:22:27.549 --> 00:22:29.549 to be to vote in virtually all the states of 405 00:22:29.569 --> 00:22:32.769 the union. So anyway, the four cases so far are 406 00:22:32.789 --> 00:22:34.970 the slam dunks where it's the easiest. And there are 407 00:22:34.990 --> 00:22:38.140 many more slam dunks in the hopper. But the point is, 408 00:22:38.759 --> 00:22:41.500 we are talking about, you know, I don't know what 409 00:22:41.519 --> 00:22:44.289 the total number is in Kansas, but it's certainly in 410 00:22:44.309 --> 00:22:47.569 the hundreds. If you're talking about people who are registered, 411 00:22:48.109 --> 00:22:51.349 who are not U.S. citizens, not registered and voting, the 412 00:22:51.369 --> 00:22:55.130 number is likely over a thousand. But the reason we're 413 00:22:55.170 --> 00:22:58.609 able to prosecute them now and couldn't prosecute them as 414 00:22:58.750 --> 00:23:01.690 easily before is we now have the federal databases that 415 00:23:01.710 --> 00:23:05.490 we can look into. And the Trump administration has finally 416 00:23:05.529 --> 00:23:07.150 got that done in the second term. The first Trump 417 00:23:07.170 --> 00:23:11.130 administration was asked by many states, Kansas included, and unable 418 00:23:11.150 --> 00:23:13.559 to deliver, or they ran out of time, I guess, 419 00:23:13.579 --> 00:23:17.579 to deliver. Now they're delivering and allowing us to utilize 420 00:23:17.640 --> 00:23:18.259 those databases. 421 00:23:18.880 --> 00:23:22.660 And you were involved in the commission on election integrity 422 00:23:22.700 --> 00:23:24.799 during Trump 1. Was that one of the things you 423 00:23:24.819 --> 00:23:26.799 were looking into, that ability to access? 424 00:23:26.880 --> 00:23:30.539 Absolutely. Absolutely. I had meetings with the president on that 425 00:23:30.559 --> 00:23:33.339 very issue. Yeah, I was the head of that commission 426 00:23:33.359 --> 00:23:37.759 in 2017. And as we were looking at different forms 427 00:23:37.779 --> 00:23:40.359 of fraudulent voting, that was one of the big ones. 428 00:23:40.779 --> 00:23:43.319 And that was one of the things the commission was 429 00:23:43.359 --> 00:23:47.200 investigating and trying to find the obvious solution to was 430 00:23:47.640 --> 00:23:49.859 letting the states have access to that information. 431 00:23:50.460 --> 00:23:53.619 One question in this regard that's always kind of interested 432 00:23:53.660 --> 00:23:57.640 me is that, as you suggested, the number of non-citizens 433 00:23:57.680 --> 00:24:01.259 who are registered is larger than the number who are voting. 434 00:24:01.920 --> 00:24:05.539 And my sense has always been that some of that, 435 00:24:06.470 --> 00:24:10.490 is inadvertent, driven by the motor voter law at the 436 00:24:10.569 --> 00:24:13.660 federal level, where when you get a driver's license, they're 437 00:24:13.700 --> 00:24:18.299 required to give you information or paperwork or whatever on 438 00:24:18.579 --> 00:24:22.279 registering to vote. And I suspect that some people, you know, 439 00:24:22.339 --> 00:24:25.960 I mean, not everybody has graduate degrees. You know, it's like, okay, well, 440 00:24:25.980 --> 00:24:28.329 some government employee gave them something and they're signing it. 441 00:24:28.750 --> 00:24:31.950 They're not reading the fine print. I'm not letting anybody 442 00:24:31.990 --> 00:24:33.910 off the hook here. I'm just saying that I don't 443 00:24:33.930 --> 00:24:37.390 read the fine print when I approve whatever, you know, 444 00:24:37.910 --> 00:24:41.799 thing online or when I register for some software. Have 445 00:24:41.819 -->

00:24:44.059 you run into examples of people who were like, didn't 446 00:24:44.079 --> 00:24:45.599 even know they were registered to vote? 447 00:24:46.039 --> 00:24:49.079 Well, put it this way. The vast majority of cases 448 00:24:49.180 --> 00:24:53.089 I have seen are ones where the alien registered to 449 00:24:53.130 --> 00:24:56.049 vote at the DMV and did so pursuant to the 450 00:24:56.089 --> 00:24:59.920 motor voter law, as you described it. And so this 451 00:24:59.980 --> 00:25:03.569 is overwhelmingly the major reason why they get registered to vote. 452 00:25:03.880 --> 00:25:07.589 And I think some of them are doing so, you know, accidentally. 453 00:25:07.650 --> 00:25:10.289 They aren't aware that they're breaking the law. Others are 454 00:25:10.329 --> 00:25:13.049 aware that they're breaking the law. But they, you know, 455 00:25:13.609 --> 00:25:15.910 the nice lady behind the desk has finished your license 456 00:25:15.970 --> 00:25:18.009 application and then says, and would you like to register 457 00:25:18.029 --> 00:25:21.599 to vote? And some people, I think. Some people, you know, 458 00:25:21.640 --> 00:25:24.829 some aliens in the United States might say, well, oh, well, 459 00:25:24.849 --> 00:25:27.069 this is a lady from the government. She's asking if 460 00:25:27.109 --> 00:25:28.529 I'd like to register to vote. I guess I can 461 00:25:28.569 --> 00:25:32.190 register to vote. So they'll say yes. Now, they in 462 00:25:32.230 --> 00:25:34.430 order to do that, though, 10 years ago, they had 463 00:25:34.470 --> 00:25:37.049 to fill out a form and the form said, I 464 00:25:38.009 --> 00:25:40.230 you check a box. Yes, I swear that I'm a U.S. 465 00:25:40.269 --> 00:25:42.190 citizen and I swear that I'm 18 years of age 466 00:25:42.230 --> 00:25:45.000 or older. And, you know, many of them might have 467 00:25:45.019 --> 00:25:48.809 had limited English skills and they might not have clearly 468 00:25:48.869 --> 00:25:50.390 read that or they might have just skipped over it 469 00:25:50.450 --> 00:25:52.309 as so many of us do when we sign things. 470 00:25:52.950 --> 00:25:55.329 And nowadays, you do it on a touchscreen at most DMVs. 471 00:25:56.069 --> 00:25:58.289 But the same words are there. I swear that I'm 472 00:25:58.410 --> 00:26:02.529 a US citizen. And so for whatever reason, they check 473 00:26:02.549 --> 00:26:06.210 the box anyway. And doing so is a huge federal crime, 474 00:26:06.250 --> 00:26:08.789 by the way. It's a federal offense punishable by up 475 00:26:08.809 --> 00:26:11.339 to 10 years in jail to falsely swear that you 476 00:26:11.390 --> 00:26:16.160 are a US citizen. Anyway, it is the predominant method 477 00:26:16.259 --> 00:26:20.049 by which aliens get registered. And of course, some of 478 00:26:20.089 --> 00:26:22.269 them are just, you know, doing it at the DMV, 479 00:26:22.329 --> 00:26:25.990 not particularly thinking about why they're registering. But others. And 480 00:26:26.039 --> 00:26:28.200 so that's why they don't vote. Others, though, they get 481 00:26:28.440 --> 00:26:30.980 they get mail from candidates. They think, oh, there's an 482 00:26:31.000 --> 00:26:33.559 election coming up. This candidate looks really good. I think 483 00:26:33.579 --> 00:26:36.759 I'll go vote for this candidate. So the candidates drive 484 00:26:36.819 --> 00:26:38.990 it just by virtue of the fact that they're constantly 485 00:26:39.009 --> 00:26:41.990 sending out the mail and doing other advertisements. The other 486 00:26:42.009 --> 00:26:45.390 thing that this conclusion that this is supported by is. 487 00:26:46.769 --> 00:26:53.349 The vast majority of aliens voting in Kansas, every alien 488 00:26:53.369 --> 00:26:57.910 who's voting is voting illegally, are legal aliens. The media 489 00:26:58.059 --> 00:27:00.599 always gets this wrong. They put the word illegal in 490 00:27:00.619 --> 00:27:03.700 the wrong place in the sentence. Modifiers aren't something they 491 00:27:03.740 --> 00:27:07.359 teach in journalism school anyway, or the placement of modifiers 492 00:27:07.400 --> 00:27:11.059 in grammar. Anyway, they always say, oh, you know, Kobach 493 00:27:11.099 --> 00:27:14.690 is alleging that illegal aliens are voting. No, that's not 494 00:27:14.730 --> 00:27:17.190 what I'm alleging. I'm alleging that aliens are voting illegally. 495 00:27:17.690 --> 00:27:19.789 Most of them are legally present in the United States. 496 00:27:19.890 --> 00:27:22.789 Some are illegally present, but they're voting. And one of 497 00:27:22.829 --> 00:27:27.109 the cases we prosecuted in Kansas almost a year ago, 498 00:27:27.690 --> 00:27:30.779 this individual was not only voting, he ran for office 499 00:27:30.950 --> 00:27:33.670 in a small town and became the mayor. And so 500 00:27:35.259 --> 00:27:40.119 in his case, I think we did plead to give 501 00:27:40.160 --> 00:27:42.299 him a plea deal. In his case, I think he 502 00:27:42.339 --> 00:27:45.109 truly was unaware. that he was breaking the law. But 503 00:27:45.670 --> 00:27:48.970 the bottom line is our system is based on trust. 504 00:27:49.869 --> 00:27:52.950 And if nobody is policing the system, like I do 505 00:27:52.990 --> 00:27:55.160 here in Kansas, and the vast majority of states, by 506 00:27:55.180 --> 00:27:57.720 the way, the attorney general does not have the authority 507 00:27:58.160 --> 00:28:00.039 to prosecute voter fraud. The secretary of state does not 508 00:28:00.079 --> 00:28:02.119 have it. I believe Kansas is the only state where 509 00:28:02.640 --> 00:28:04.779 that is true. So you're relying on county attorneys who 510 00:28:04.839 --> 00:28:09.099 are overworked, understaffed, and unfamiliar with this area of the law. 511 00:28:09.440 --> 00:28:10.759 So it's a big problem. 512 00:28:11.319 --> 00:28:14.559 I remember reading, and I'm not clear if I recall 513 00:28:14.579 --> 00:28:18.799 this or not, but some state

tried to require DMV 514 00:28:18.859 --> 00:28:23.299 employees to tell people when they presented them the register 515 00:28:23.319 --> 00:28:27.319 to vote, like prevent them from saying, now you can 516 00:28:27.339 --> 00:28:28.640 only do this if you're a U.S. 517 00:28:28.680 --> 00:28:29.099 Citizen. 518 00:28:29.140 --> 00:28:31.539 So make sure you, you know, if you're not a U.S. citizen, 519 00:28:31.559 --> 00:28:33.299 it's none of my business, but make sure you don't, 520 00:28:33.880 --> 00:28:36.099 you know, register to vote or something like that. Are 521 00:28:36.380 --> 00:28:39.140 DMV employees allowed to do that? Are states allowed to 522 00:28:39.509 --> 00:28:40.569 make that kind of requirement? 523 00:28:41.140 --> 00:28:43.700 They should be allowed to do so. I am not 524 00:28:43.880 --> 00:28:46.089 aware of which state you're referring to, but yeah, it 525 00:28:46.130 --> 00:28:49.410 certainly would not violate the motor voter act, the national 526 00:28:49.589 --> 00:28:53.730 voter registration act of the 1990s for the state to clarify, 527 00:28:53.750 --> 00:28:56.970 you know, you know, add an additional question. And are 528 00:28:56.990 --> 00:28:59.640 you a U S citizen if, because you need to 529 00:28:59.670 --> 00:28:59.990 be one. 530 00:29:00.359 --> 00:29:00.559 Right. 531 00:29:00.880 --> 00:29:03.420 Right. Now the absurdity of all this is that the, 532 00:29:04.019 --> 00:29:07.579 in order to give a driver's license, well, some States just, 533 00:29:07.839 --> 00:29:10.000 you know, violate the law that California, but if you, 534 00:29:10.710 --> 00:29:13.410 In order to give a driver's license to someone who 535 00:29:13.549 --> 00:29:17.210 is not a U.S. citizen, under the Real ID Act 536 00:29:17.490 --> 00:29:20.940 of 2005 passed by Congress, the state has to establish 537 00:29:20.980 --> 00:29:25.539 that the person is legally present. That's right. So the 538 00:29:26.039 --> 00:29:29.900 DMV clerk should have just been presented with evidence that 539 00:29:29.940 --> 00:29:32.680 this person is a lawfully present alien, like a visa 540 00:29:32.700 --> 00:29:36.930 or something. Now, again, we may be assuming too much 541 00:29:36.970 --> 00:29:39.369 legal knowledge here, but you would think that they would say, hey, 542 00:29:39.390 --> 00:29:41.980 wait a minute. You just showed me your green card. 543 00:29:42.400 --> 00:29:43.500 I shouldn't be asking you to vote. 544 00:29:44.039 --> 00:29:46.779 Yeah, this is something, though, needs to be systematized because 545 00:29:47.180 --> 00:29:49.220 there's a lot of people in the DMV. There's a 546 00:29:49.279 --> 00:29:51.400 long line. People are sick of waiting. You want to 547 00:29:51.440 --> 00:29:53.420 move the people through. It's the kind of thing that 548 00:29:53.440 --> 00:29:57.210 needs to be part of the process. So just one 549 00:29:57.549 --> 00:30:02.470 on this issue of motor voter, are there proposals that 550

00:30:02.509 --> 00:30:06.200 you've heard of in Congress to change that? I mean, obviously, 551 00:30:06.220 --> 00:30:08.240 you want to make sure people can register to vote 552 00:30:08.279 --> 00:30:11.940 if they are eligible. But this has clearly led to 553 00:30:12.019 --> 00:30:16.700 all kinds of people almost luring people into breaking the 554 00:30:16.740 --> 00:30:18.930 law in some cases, or at least people who just 555 00:30:19.009 --> 00:30:21.750 aren't all that knowledgeable or sophisticated. It just seems like 556 00:30:21.809 --> 00:30:26.099 it's a bad idea. Obviously, you're breaking the law, you're 557 00:30:26.119 --> 00:30:29.279 breaking the law. But if we're kind of setting up 558 00:30:29.319 --> 00:30:33.690 a situation where unsophisticated people are going to break the law, 559 00:30:33.730 --> 00:30:35.259 that's partly on us, isn't it? 560 00:30:35.609 --> 00:30:38.289 Yeah. And to answer your question, yes, there are proposals 561 00:30:38.329 --> 00:30:43.210 in Congress to tighten up the NVRA and to eliminate 562 00:30:43.230 --> 00:30:45.940 some of these loopholes or these opportunities for people to 563 00:30:46.460 --> 00:30:48.819 become registered to vote if they are not US citizens. 564 00:30:49.259 --> 00:30:54.380 But as you know, election law bills are are highly, 565 00:30:54.480 --> 00:30:59.390 highly politicized these days. And, you know, getting it through 566 00:30:59.410 --> 00:31:03.349 the Senate past the filibusters is very difficult. You know, 567 00:31:04.009 --> 00:31:06.829 it didn't used to be this way. I mean, when Kansas, 568 00:31:07.029 --> 00:31:09.190 you know, when I was first elected Secretary of State, 569 00:31:09.230 --> 00:31:12.740 first thing I worked on in 2011 was our bill 570 00:31:13.319 --> 00:31:17.099 creating photo ID requirements and creating proof of citizenship requirements 571 00:31:17.480 --> 00:31:21.930 when you register to vote. And that bill passed with 572 00:31:22.170 --> 00:31:27.180 bipartisan majorities, and the majority of Democrats voted in favor 573 00:31:27.220 --> 00:31:29.900 of that bill in 2011, as they did in other 574 00:31:29.960 --> 00:31:34.259 states prior to 2012. But then in 2012, something changed. 575 00:31:34.279 --> 00:31:37.470 The Democrat Party nationally decided that they were against election 576 00:31:37.509 --> 00:31:41.450 security laws. Bill Clinton seemed to be the harbinger of 577 00:31:41.490 --> 00:31:44.730 this change. He gave a speech saying that election security 578 00:31:44.769 --> 00:31:48.609 laws were the new Jim Crow laws, and all the 579 00:31:48.650 --> 00:31:52.150 Democrats got the memo, and suddenly the bipartisan support stopped 580 00:31:52.190 --> 00:31:53.569 in the year 2012. 581 00:31:53.569 --> 00:31:57.819 Incredible. One last question on the voting thing. My sense 582 00:31:57.859 --> 00:31:59.690 has been, and maybe I'm wrong on this, but my 583 00:31:59.759 --> 00:32:03.779 sense has been some of the legal immigrants who have voted, 584 00:32:03.880 --> 00:32:07.400 and as you said, it's mostly they're They're non-citizens, but 585 00:32:07.420 --> 00:32:11.299 they have green cards. Some of those people, my sense is, 586 00:32:11.640 --> 00:32:16.500 were illegal aliens and then got legalized for whatever reason, 587 00:32:16.519 --> 00:32:17.440 because that happens. 588 00:32:17.180 --> 00:32:17.720 All the time. 589 00:32:17.759 --> 00:32:20.680 People get green cards through various means, even if there's 590 00:32:20.720 --> 00:32:24.180 no big amnesty passed by Congress. And again, if people 591 00:32:24.200 --> 00:32:26.700 aren't that sophisticated, they're like, OK, well, I was illegal. 592 00:32:26.769 --> 00:32:27.269 Now I'm legal. 593 00:32:27.309 --> 00:32:29.170 That must mean I could vote. In other words, they're 594 00:32:29.809 --> 00:32:34.430 unclear on the concept of citizenship, kind of conflating it 595 00:32:34.470 --> 00:32:37.869 with just legalities. And they were illegal and they understood 596 00:32:37.910 --> 00:32:39.529 they couldn't vote then. But now that they have a 597 00:32:39.529 --> 00:32:43.470 green card, I'm all set, right? Have you encountered anything 598 00:32:43.490 --> 00:32:46.980 like that among the people, the cases you've been involved with? 599 00:32:47.059 --> 00:32:51.519 No, we haven't because it's, you know, normally it is 600 00:32:51.640 --> 00:32:55.529 not possible to go from illegal status to green card. 601 00:32:56.210 --> 00:32:59.309 Only under very, very rare situations can you do that. 602 00:32:59.329 --> 00:33:02.549 So no, that's a pretty, that's a rarity. Interesting. The 603 00:33:02.609 --> 00:33:05.650 vast majority of the people who are you know, voting 604 00:33:05.710 --> 00:33:09.190 illegally but are not U.S. citizens, came in legally and 605 00:33:09.250 --> 00:33:09.890 then eventually. 606 00:33:09.690 --> 00:33:10.869 Got— They know what they're doing, basically. 607 00:33:11.049 --> 00:33:12.470 They know what they're doing, yeah. Interesting. 608 00:33:13.029 --> 00:33:18.269 Okay, well, we've gone over our half-hour target, but that's 609 00:33:18.309 --> 00:33:20.650 no problem. This is an interesting topic. The last thing 610 00:33:20.670 --> 00:33:23.250 I want to ask you is you're not an old man. 611 00:33:23.269 --> 00:33:26.329 You're not going to be attorney general forever. What are 612 00:33:26.369 --> 00:33:27.210 your future plans? 613 00:33:27.880 --> 00:33:31.910 Well, right now I'm in a race for reelection. as 614 00:33:31.970 --> 00:33:35.349 Attorney General on November 3rd. I definitely want to serve 615 00:33:35.390 --> 00:33:37.970 another four years in this role. And it's really, it 616 00:33:38.059 --> 00:33:41.099 suits me as a person. I was a law professor 617 00:33:41.859 --> 00:33:45.359 before I became Secretary of State. And on the immigration 618 00:33:45.400 --> 00:33:49.579 issue in particular, we talked about the

litigation over in-state tuition. 619 00:33:49.599 --> 00:33:52.329 It's something I've been able to make a real dent. 620 00:33:52.950 --> 00:33:55.670 I don't know if you know, Mark, but at the 621 00:33:55.869 --> 00:33:57.450 end of the Biden administration, in 2023, 15 states led 622 00:33:57.470 --> 00:34:05.839 by Kansas, challenged the Biden administration's regulation that gave Obamacare 623 00:34:06.619 --> 00:34:10.300 to illegal immigrants. And I argued that case personally on 624 00:34:10.340 --> 00:34:13.679 behalf of the 15 states. And we won in federal 625 00:34:13.719 --> 00:34:16.000 district court in North Dakota is where we brought it. 626 00:34:16.119 --> 00:34:20.500 And then we won again in the Eighth Circuit. So, 627 00:34:20.519 --> 00:34:25.239 you know, I enjoy doing this. And whether it's immigration 628 00:34:25.380 --> 00:34:28.000 or many of the other constitutional issues that I feel 629 00:34:28.039 --> 00:34:32.889 passionately about, Attorney General certainly fits me. So yeah, I'm 630 00:34:32.929 --> 00:34:37.150 hopeful that I'll get reelected on November 3rd. And if 631 00:34:37.230 --> 00:34:39.909 listeners want to, you know, read about it or chip in, 632 00:34:39.929 --> 00:34:41.530 they can go to chriscobach.com. 633 00:34:42.250 --> 00:34:44.309 We don't do election analysis here, but how is it 634 00:34:44.329 --> 00:34:46.090 looking for you? I mean, I don't know, do you 635 00:34:46.110 --> 00:34:49.380 guys do polling or something for attorney general races? 636 00:34:50.239 --> 00:34:52.559 Yeah, we do. And it's closer than it should be. 637 00:34:52.719 --> 00:34:55.119 You know, this cycle in- Well, this is a bad 638 00:34:55.239 --> 00:34:58.000 cycle too for Republicans in general. It's a tough cycle 639 00:34:58.039 --> 00:35:02.289 for Republicans with fuel prices being high. So, races that, 640 00:35:02.510 --> 00:35:05.650 you know, you would expect the Republican to win easily 641 00:35:05.929 --> 00:35:08.829 are turning out to be, you know, real, you know, 642 00:35:09.230 --> 00:35:12.730 bare-knuckled kind of scrapes to the very end. So, it's 643 00:35:12.829 --> 00:35:14.730 much closer than we want it to be. 644 00:35:15.329 --> 00:35:16.510 And what was the URL again? 645 00:35:16.869 --> 00:35:20.360 ChrisKobach.com, K-R-I-S-K-O-B-A-C-H.com. 646 00:35:20.659 --> 00:35:23.699 Well, thank you, Chris Kobach, Attorney General of the State 647 00:35:23.719 --> 00:35:27.559 of Kansas, talking to us about in-state tuition and also 648 00:35:27.619 --> 00:35:28.559 voting integrity. 649 00:35:28.780 --> 00:35:28.880 And. 650 00:35:29.789 --> 00:35:32.150 We had John about almost a year and a half 651 00:35:32.210 --> 00:35:36.320 ago on a broader range of issues. But, you know, 652 00:35:36.500 --> 00:35:39.000 keep us in mind and we'll keep an eye on you. 653 00:35:39.159 --> 00:35:42.800 And hopefully we'll have you back in the future. 654 00:35:42.820 --> 00:35:44.670 All right. Sounds great, Mark. Great speaking with you. 655 00:35:45.070 --> 00:35:47.829 Thank you, Chris. That's it for this week's episode of 656 00:35:47.929 --> 00:35:52.510 Parsing Immigration Policy. Thanks to Attorney General Kobach for joining us. 657 00:35:53.110 --> 00:35:56.480 Thanks to Brian Griffith, our producer, for making this work. 658 00:35:57.210 --> 00:35:59.400 Thanks to all of you for tuning in, and I 659 00:35:59.460 --> 00:36:00.480 hope you tune in next week.