התמלול המלא של Retune Your Heart: Finding the Extra's in the Ordinariness of Everyday Life with Attorney, Author, Advocate, Don Blackwell

Don Blackwell. I think Don and 35 00:02:07.439 --> 00:02:11.520 I connected on LinkedIn a few years ago and I've 36 00:02:11.520 --> 00:02:17.000 been following him and read his book and two days 37 00:02:17.120 --> 00:02:21.319 I just went through and couldn't put it down, but 38 00:02:21.400 --> 00:02:22.919 I did go to sleep and got up the next 39 00:02:22.919 --> 00:02:25.639 morning and finished it. So it's a wonderful book. 40 00:02:25.800 --> 00:02:27.159 Really quite a tribute to the author. 41 00:02:27.280 --> 00:02:28.199 Yeah, very yeah. 42 00:02:28.319 --> 00:02:31.439 As Linda knows, Yeah, I'm not a big reader, but 43 00:02:31.680 --> 00:02:34.719 we do a lot of audiobooks now, but yeah, it 44 00:02:34.840 --> 00:02:36.360 was on great book. 45 00:02:37.199 --> 00:02:40.159 So without well, I'm gonna just read the quote that 46 00:02:40.199 --> 00:02:42.280 I came up with today for our episode, and I 47 00:02:42.280 --> 00:02:46.639 think it's very fitting. It's by zig Ziggler, very motivational, 48 00:02:47.520 --> 00:02:50.319 famous motivational speaker. I think who was passed on. But 49 00:02:50.759 --> 00:02:53.800 here is this quote that lives on your attitude, not 50 00:02:53.919 --> 00:02:58.680 your aptitude will determine your altitude. And without further ado, 51 00:02:59.000 --> 00:03:02.439 welcome Don Blackwell, thank. 52 00:03:02.280 --> 00:03:05.759 You, Linda and Jack for all of those really very 53 00:03:05.840 --> 00:03:08.680 hid words. I have to tell you, it's really a 54 00:03:08.719 --> 00:03:12.400 privilege and it's very humbling for me to be be 55 00:03:12.479 --> 00:03:15.039 able to share this time with both of you, and 56 00:03:15.080 --> 00:03:18.039 I just really want to take a moment to honor 57 00:03:18.080 --> 00:03:20.719 and affirm the work that both of you have done 58 00:03:20.800 --> 00:03:23.599 through the years. It's really extraordinary. 59 00:03:24.240 --> 00:03:27.800 Well right right back at you, right back at you, 60 00:03:28.800 --> 00:03:31.960 So Don, your books are so well written, honest, and 61 00:03:32.120 --> 00:03:36.439 so impactful on many levels. They are also hopeful and centering. 62 00:03:37.080 --> 00:03:40.759 This is so important, especially now because of the times 63 00:03:40.800 --> 00:03:44.479 we are living in. In retune your heart, you share 64 00:03:44.560 --> 00:03:47.680 parts of your childhood that were challenging to say the least. 65 00:03:48.240 --> 00:03:51.039 Can you share a little about your childhood and how 66 00:03:51.120 --> 00:03:54.960 it affected the way you perceive the world. And also 67 00:03:55.080 --> 00:03:56.960 where people can find your books. 68 00:03:58.800 --> 00:04:01.120 Well, people can find the book books at the usual 69 00:04:02.879 --> 00:04:07.840 places Amazon. Also they can go to the website that 70 00:04:07.919 --> 00:04:11.120 I created around the book, which is Retuneourheart dot com 71 00:04:11.840 --> 00:04:17.399 and all of the other usual online places. Yeah, I 72 00:04:17.439 --> 00:04:24.000 you know, my childhood was difficult, I guess, challenging in 73 00:04:24.399 --> 00:04:29.759 in many respects. My mom was was kind of an unrepentant, 74 00:04:30.519 --> 00:04:39.759 unapologetic alcoholic, and my dad was, you know, a child 75 00:04:39.839 --> 00:04:43.560 of the depression era, which I think not unlike many 76 00:04:44.199 --> 00:04:48.079 who grew up in that time period, was very committed 77 00:04:48.120 --> 00:04:57.800 to his work, sort of distant emotionally. And you know, 78 00:04:57.920 --> 00:05:01.639 so I grew up in a place where I came 79 00:05:01.720 --> 00:05:06.199 to believe that love and affection were things that had 80 00:05:06.240 --> 00:05:09.639 to be earned, and you earned those things by doing, 81 00:05:11.199 --> 00:05:17.120 and really not just doing, but doing perfectly. So how 82 00:05:17.120 --> 00:05:20.480 did that translate into my growing up? You know, I 83 00:05:20.519 --> 00:05:28.040 became a doer. I could do with the best of them. 84 00:05:24.959 --> 00:05:31.360 I convinced myself that the more you did, the more 85 00:05:31.480 --> 00:05:35.839 likely it was that you were conveying love, and the 86 00:05:35.839 --> 00:05:39.639 more likely it was that you would receive love. And 87 00:05:39.720 --> 00:05:45.160 of course that's a very distorted view of the world, right, 88 00:05:45.360 --> 00:05:49.720 and it leads to a lot of issues I think. 89 00:05:49.800 --> 00:05:53.920 I mean, I often share with people the fact that 90 00:05:54.000 --> 00:05:56.759 I would have traded every gift that I ever received 91 00:05:56.800 --> 00:05:58.879 as a child for the gift of knowing that I 92 00:05:58.879 --> 00:06:07.040 didn't have to be perfect it. And unfortunately that that mentality, 93 00:06:07.160 --> 00:06:12.639 that that doing mentality translated and into my insistence that 94 00:06:12.720 --> 00:06:16.240 the people around me also to do that they also 95 00:06:16.319 --> 00:06:22.360 do exceptionally well. And you know, that created sort of 96 00:06:22.360 --> 00:06:29.879 a very unhealthy environment really not only in my work life, 97 00:06:29.920 --> 00:06:32.079 but in my personal and family life as well. 98 00:06:35.199 --> 00:06:41.759 I you know, this whole world now you watch television 99 00:06:41.839 --> 00:06:47.560 shows and commercials and everything, and everybody on there seems 100 00:06:47.560 --> 00:06:51.560 to be this perfect person, you know, and. 101 00:06:53.079 --> 00:06:56.759 Well, the perfect prototype and how prototype okay, right, how 102 00:06:56.800 --> 00:07:01.279 they look so and I was interested and watching the 103 00:07:02.399 --> 00:07:07.680 Olympic hockey and when how the Americans were so happy 104 00:07:07.680 --> 00:07:10.759 and the Canadians winning the silver medal, it was like 105 00:07:10.879 --> 00:07:13.000 they didn't even want to put them on, you know, 106

00:07:13.120 --> 00:07:14.879 because they didn't win the whole thing. 107 00:07:15.759 --> 00:07:18.399 And then and then I heard I didn't see the 108 00:07:19.000 --> 00:07:21.040 baseball game the other night because I don't stay at 109 00:07:21.240 --> 00:07:22.480 lad anymore. 110 00:07:22.480 --> 00:07:23.519 But I know that the. 111 00:07:25.079 --> 00:07:28.360 American team took off the medals after, you know, the 112 00:07:28.399 --> 00:07:30.879 ceremony and stuff because they didn't win the gold medal 113 00:07:31.000 --> 00:07:35.000 and stuff. And I said, well, what kind of a 114 00:07:35.160 --> 00:07:38.160 lesson does that serve our youth that are, you know, 115 00:07:38.439 --> 00:07:41.399 playing sports or whatever that you know, if you don't 116 00:07:41.519 --> 00:07:44.639 win the whole thing, it's just not worth it. And 117 00:07:45.079 --> 00:07:47.160 it puts so much pressure. And a lot of that's 118 00:07:48.040 --> 00:07:50.079 you know, from their peers, a lot of it's from 119 00:07:50.120 --> 00:07:51.879 their parents, a lot of it's from the coaches that 120 00:07:52.040 --> 00:07:52.399 you know. 121 00:07:52.560 --> 00:07:54.920 But just the honor of being there, all the hard work. 122 00:07:54.959 --> 00:07:58.439 I mean, it's recognized by the whole world, and yet 123 00:07:59.000 --> 00:08:00.879 they don't feel good enough about it. So I'm going 124 00:08:00.920 --> 00:08:03.680 to sure, it's got to be disappointing if if you 125 00:08:03.720 --> 00:08:06.639 don't take it all home. But you know, that's the 126 00:08:06.759 --> 00:08:10.160 cherry on the top, the whole the whole cake is wonderful. 127 00:08:10.360 --> 00:08:14.000 But that's what society is. It's what society is like now. 128 00:08:14.040 --> 00:08:16.360 It's like perfect, it got to be you got to 129 00:08:16.360 --> 00:08:18.319 be number one or else it's not worth it. 130 00:08:18.399 --> 00:08:21.079 So I don't know, Yeah, and I think the messaging 131 00:08:21.199 --> 00:08:24.399 is very challenging for young people Jack, as you point out, 132 00:08:25.399 --> 00:08:32.360 and it's increasingly it's increasingly or pronounced right with social media, 133 00:08:32.600 --> 00:08:36.679 and you see, you see the extent to which people 134 00:08:37.039 --> 00:08:40.159 are willing to go to portray this image that's really 135 00:08:40.159 --> 00:08:46.480 not reflective of what the day to day aspects of 136 00:08:46.519 --> 00:08:47.720 life are all about. 137 00:08:47.759 --> 00:08:52.279 Right, right, So we just thank you for sharing your 138 00:08:52.320 --> 00:08:55.480 personal journey. I know it's hard to share a personal 139 00:08:55.559 --> 00:08:59.360 journey like this, and but you've done it honestly. And 140 00:08:59.399 --> 00:09:03.639 so elk you an accomplished trial attorney and have a 141 00:09:03.639 --> 00:09:08.159 busy life raising a family. So was writing books something 142 00:09:08.360 --> 00:09:10.600 always new or wanted to do? 143 00:09:13.279 --> 00:09:15.559 You know? I started writing as a very young man, 144 00:09:15.759 --> 00:09:20.120 I guess to some extent it was one of the 145 00:09:20.159 --> 00:09:23.320 ways in which I sort of escaped from the environment 146 00:09:23.399 --> 00:09:28.919 that I was living in. And I started writing poetry 147 00:09:29.120 --> 00:09:35.759 actually as a very young person, and you all will 148 00:09:35.799 --> 00:09:40.440 be able to relate to this. I also sort of 149 00:09:40.559 --> 00:09:45.759 developed this practice of rewriting songs, and I rewrote virtually 150 00:09:45.840 --> 00:09:52.080 all of David Gates and Bread's songbook. A funny kind 151 00:09:52.120 --> 00:09:55.360 of a side I've a friend of mine in the 152 00:09:55.399 --> 00:09:58.799 neighborhood said knew that I wrote poetry, and I guess 153 00:09:58.840 --> 00:10:01.960 wanted to impress his girlfriend, so he asked me if 154 00:10:02.000 --> 00:10:05.279 I would rewrite some of Bred's songs so that he 155 00:10:05.320 --> 00:10:08.240 could give them to his girlfriend. So I was sort 156 00:10:08.279 --> 00:10:14.600 of ghostwriting for him for a number of months until 157 00:10:14.840 --> 00:10:19.000 somehow this young woman discovered that actually he wasn't the 158 00:10:19.080 --> 00:10:24.919 one writing these songs that she was becoming so enamored with, 159 00:10:25.000 --> 00:10:29.679 and she insisted that she meet me. So that was 160 00:10:29.759 --> 00:10:34.279 kind of an interesting sort of side story of my writing. 161 00:10:34.679 --> 00:10:38.279 And then I really put writing aside when I went 162 00:10:38.320 --> 00:10:42.960 off to college and through law school, and it was 163 00:10:43.000 --> 00:10:49.080 really as a result of Ashley's battles with my daughter, 164 00:10:49.120 --> 00:10:55.240 Ashley's battles with anorexia, that I felt sort of compelled 165 00:10:55.279 --> 00:11:00.440 to start writing again. And once I did, there was 166 00:11:00.519 --> 00:11:06.799 this really kind of outpouring of writing that had sort 167 00:11:06.799 --> 00:11:10.039 of I felt like had been bottled up all of 168 00:11:10.080 --> 00:11:14.679 those years. And I actually, for a period of time 169 00:11:14.720 --> 00:11:17.679 really over two or three years, really wrote almost every day. 170 00:11:18.840 --> 00:11:19.159 Wow. 171 00:11:20.360 --> 00:11:25.759 Well, you know, it's really interesting the writing aspect, and 172 00:11:25.960 --> 00:11:29.919 you know, writing from your heart. But also attorneys are 173 00:11:30.000 --> 00:11:33.840 very eloquent, So it's very interesting how you became a 174 00:11:33.840 --> 00:11:40.039 trial attorney because I watched I've seen attorneys when I've 175 00:11:40.039 --> 00:11:42.840 been on Jerry duty, and I watched television and movies 176 00:11:42.879 --> 00:11:46.480 and always so eloquent. So I'm in awe of the 177 00:11:46.519 --> 00:11:51.039 way that you, I'm serious an

attorney do the same thing, 178 00:11:51.120 --> 00:11:53.639 and how you've put it out there for everybody to 179 00:11:53.639 --> 00:11:55.159 see in your books. It's beautiful. 180 00:11:55.919 --> 00:11:59.399 Do your fellow attorneys read your books? 181 00:11:59.799 --> 00:12:01.200 Do you know? You know? 182 00:12:01.399 --> 00:12:05.840 Interestingly? No, I think it's the short answer to that question. 183 00:12:06.320 --> 00:12:09.879 Attorneys tend to be a kind of different breed of 184 00:12:09.879 --> 00:12:14.399 of of people, and you know, people are I think 185 00:12:14.639 --> 00:12:20.440 sometimes sort of fascinated by the extent to which I 186 00:12:20.519 --> 00:12:24.159 share so vulnerably, not only in my writing, but when 187 00:12:24.159 --> 00:12:28.120 I have the opportunity to speak at at legal conferences 188 00:12:28.159 --> 00:12:31.320 and things of that sort. I think I'm sort of 189 00:12:31.320 --> 00:12:35.480 a curiosity in that regard, right, and especially to see 190 00:12:35.480 --> 00:12:39.080 a male trial attorney who's willing to, you know, stand 191 00:12:39.159 --> 00:12:40.840 up on a stage in front of a couple of 192 00:12:41.000 --> 00:12:45.240 hundred lawyers and be vulnerable and be emotional, which I 193 00:12:46.080 --> 00:12:49.080 often am when I when I talk on some of 194 00:12:49.120 --> 00:12:58.480 these subjects. So yeah, they to the men, I'm probably 195 00:12:58.519 --> 00:13:01.720 a little scary to the To the female lawyers, they're 196 00:13:01.799 --> 00:13:06.559 like kind of fascinated by that so and very welcoming 197 00:13:06.639 --> 00:13:07.440 of the messaging. 198 00:13:07.559 --> 00:13:12.080 Really well, it's a messaging that everyone needs to hear well. 199 00:13:12.120 --> 00:13:15.720 And I think it's so important for men and to 200 00:13:15.799 --> 00:13:20.799 show men that they can show their emotions. I always 201 00:13:21.159 --> 00:13:24.559 almost always tear up when we're at an event where 202 00:13:24.559 --> 00:13:28.159 we're talking. And we were at a college last week 203 00:13:28.240 --> 00:13:30.840 and it was the same thing. I was kind of 204 00:13:30.840 --> 00:13:34.679 telling the story and just you know, I tear up 205 00:13:34.679 --> 00:13:37.960 at some point and it's okay, it's okay. 206 00:13:38.399 --> 00:13:40.240 And he used to write me. He used to write 207 00:13:40.240 --> 00:13:43.080 me poetry when I was dating too, well, we were dating, 208 00:13:43.120 --> 00:13:46.200 so he's always had a sensitive side, which I absolutely love. 209 00:13:46.639 --> 00:13:48.600 Go ahead. That didn't mean to interrupt you done. 210 00:13:48.559 --> 00:13:50.960 No, No, not at all, you know, Jack, I think. 211 00:13:52.360 --> 00:13:53.799 That I really. 212 00:13:55.600 --> 00:13:58.919 Appreciate the fact that, you know, I tell people, there's 213 00:13:58.960 --> 00:14:04.960 always this for running just below the surface, right when 214 00:14:05.000 --> 00:14:08.960 you've when you've been in the trenches, especially when it 215 00:14:09.000 --> 00:14:17.360 comes to battling eating disorders and the emotional and energy 216 00:14:17.440 --> 00:14:20.799 that that requires of the people whose loved ones are 217 00:14:20.919 --> 00:14:28.399 are struggling. You know, you really it's it's a it's 218 00:14:28.440 --> 00:14:33.600 a high emotion environment and when you're when you live 219 00:14:33.639 --> 00:14:38.759 in it for a sustained period of time, especially revisiting 220 00:14:38.840 --> 00:14:41.519 that is just always very challenging. 221 00:14:43.559 --> 00:14:48.240 So I can only imagine. But I'm going to read 222 00:14:48.279 --> 00:14:51.919 Allen's question now for you. Since she isn't here, I 223 00:14:51.960 --> 00:14:55.440 can't be here right now. So these are Allen's words. 224 00:14:56.639 --> 00:14:59.879 As an educator, I have seen first hand the impact 225 00:15:00.120 --> 00:15:04.360 family dysfunction and fragmentation, which you describe in your book. 226 00:15:04.799 --> 00:15:07.960 For those who have not experienced that kind of disconnection, 227 00:15:08.240 --> 00:15:12.600 it can be difficult to fully grasp how chaotic, isolating, 228 00:15:12.919 --> 00:15:16.879 and overwhelming these situations can be. How can we help 229 00:15:16.919 --> 00:15:21.039 others develop greater compassion and understanding for realities like this, 230 00:15:21.759 --> 00:15:25.519 experiences that are so often hidden behind silence. 231 00:15:27.559 --> 00:15:31.720 Yeah, I really feel like that's an excellent question, And 232 00:15:33.240 --> 00:15:36.159 you know, I think I think the starting point really 233 00:15:36.240 --> 00:15:39.840 is the sharing of the experiences and the sharing of 234 00:15:39.919 --> 00:15:44.360 the stories, because I think Ellen's right. I think that 235 00:15:45.360 --> 00:15:49.159 too often there's this sense that those kinds of experiences 236 00:15:49.240 --> 00:15:52.440 have to remain hidden, they have to be in the 237 00:15:52.480 --> 00:15:56.840 shadows somewhere, and they're hours to bear, you know, And 238 00:15:58.759 --> 00:16:02.200 I think a willingness to be vulnerable and to share 239 00:16:02.279 --> 00:16:05.879 those experiences, and to not only share sort of the 240 00:16:05.960 --> 00:16:09.879 dark pieces of them, but also to demonstrate how you 241 00:16:09.960 --> 00:16:15.480 can move from that darkness to light is critical because 242 00:16:16.600 --> 00:16:19.840 what I've found, at least in my own experience, is 243 00:16:19.879 --> 00:16:23.759 that the more often, the more you're willing to share 244 00:16:23.799 --> 00:16:26.879 those things, and the deeper you're willing to go, the 245 00:16:27.600 --> 00:16:31.639 more likely it is that you're giving other hearts that 246 00:16:31.720 --> 00:16:36.440 are similarly situated, that are bearing those same sort of 247 00:16:36.480 --> 00:16:42.919 silent

struggles, permission to also begin sharing and kind of 248 00:16:42.960 --> 00:16:50.159 begin the hard work that is required to transform those 249 00:16:50.240 --> 00:16:56.080 experiences into something positive. Yeah, that's you know, and that's 250 00:16:56.120 --> 00:16:58.879 why I like to share with people where I started from. 251 00:16:58.919 --> 00:17:01.879 You know. I I tell people, if they knew me 252 00:17:02.200 --> 00:17:05.359 ten or fifteen years ago, they really wouldn't they really 253 00:17:05.359 --> 00:17:08.880 wouldn't recognize that person as the person that's sitting in 254 00:17:08.880 --> 00:17:12.359 front of them. And I do that for a reason, right, 255 00:17:12.400 --> 00:17:17.839 I mean, none of us started in this place. You know, 256 00:17:18.000 --> 00:17:21.240 at some point along the way, all of us experienced 257 00:17:22.000 --> 00:17:28.960 something traumatic, something that broke us, some form of brokenness. 258 00:17:29.640 --> 00:17:34.559 And I think it's important for people to recognize that 259 00:17:34.440 --> 00:17:39.200 that I didn't start here. I redefined what a triple 260 00:17:39.279 --> 00:17:42.759 A personality was for you know, the better part of 261 00:17:42.799 --> 00:17:46.519 the first forty years of my adult life, and it 262 00:17:46.599 --> 00:17:51.440 was really only as a result of Ashley's immeasurable suffering 263 00:17:52.160 --> 00:17:56.759 that I began to take a very inventory, right, a 264 00:17:56.880 --> 00:18:01.200 very introspective look at where I was, and that my 265 00:18:01.319 --> 00:18:07.599 own need for change. And so yeah, I think the 266 00:18:07.680 --> 00:18:11.200 most important piece is talking about it because it gives 267 00:18:11.279 --> 00:18:15.519 permission for others to know that they're not alone. 268 00:18:15.720 --> 00:18:18.359 You know, I couldn't have said it any better. I mean, 269 00:18:18.359 --> 00:18:21.920 it's just an I know, you know, I mean, through 270 00:18:21.960 --> 00:18:26.480 this journey we've been on with Emily and where we 271 00:18:26.519 --> 00:18:31.279 are now, We've talked to so many people, and there's 272 00:18:31.279 --> 00:18:33.319 so many more people out there that are dealing with 273 00:18:33.400 --> 00:18:36.039 the same things that we dealt with and I'm still 274 00:18:36.079 --> 00:18:38.240 dealing with it, and I just. 275 00:18:38.440 --> 00:18:41.440 Yet a dead time, we felt so alone because nobody 276 00:18:41.559 --> 00:18:45.480 was talking about it. Then nobody was. I mean, things 277 00:18:45.519 --> 00:18:47.880 have opened up a lot, you know, since then. We 278 00:18:47.920 --> 00:18:49.720 still have a long way to go, but at least 279 00:18:49.759 --> 00:18:54.319 the conversations are happening, and people aren't aren't. I was 280 00:18:54.400 --> 00:18:57.440 afraid to admit that they're struggling with a mental health condition, 281 00:18:57.720 --> 00:18:59.599 but needing disorder or depression. 282 00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:01.920 And I know, you know how hard it is to 283 00:19:02.359 --> 00:19:05.000 tell that story and and tell it over and over again. 284 00:19:05.039 --> 00:19:07.960 But there's just I just encourage so many more people 285 00:19:08.480 --> 00:19:12.559 to tell their story, you know, in some way they 286 00:19:12.559 --> 00:19:15.240 don't have to write a book, but just tell their 287 00:19:15.279 --> 00:19:17.559 story and and don't hide it in the house, and 288 00:19:18.000 --> 00:19:20.720 just get the help, you know, in a safe place. 289 00:19:20.839 --> 00:19:23.839 And that's what we've created, is a safe place for 290 00:19:23.960 --> 00:19:27.160 people just to talk and and open up and and 291 00:19:27.160 --> 00:19:28.599 not hold it inside and that. 292 00:19:29.039 --> 00:19:32.079 But also not everybody deserves to hear the story, so 293 00:19:32.119 --> 00:19:36.960 it has to be you know, use your your senses 294 00:19:37.000 --> 00:19:39.400 and find a community that we'll understand. 295 00:19:39.720 --> 00:19:43.920 Right again, all mental illness is important, and everybody's talking 296 00:19:43.920 --> 00:19:47.240 about the mental illness crisis around the world, you know, 297 00:19:47.400 --> 00:19:50.960 and and how so many people don't get the help 298 00:19:51.200 --> 00:19:55.400 that they need and everything. But and I we focus 299 00:19:55.480 --> 00:19:59.880 on eating disorders, and eating disorders are as Cyndi Bulock's 300 00:20:00.079 --> 00:20:03.480 the Redheaded Stepchild. Nobody wants to talk about it, and 301 00:20:03.519 --> 00:20:09.960 nobody realizes the extent of eating disorders around the world. 302 00:20:10.359 --> 00:20:13.759 But they never stand alone. There's always anxiety. 303 00:20:13.400 --> 00:20:16.359 That's correct. So you know, we're always talking about depression 304 00:20:16.400 --> 00:20:19.359 and anxiety and bipolar and all that, but these people 305 00:20:19.400 --> 00:20:23.680 with eating disorders have those co occurring things too. And 306 00:20:24.640 --> 00:20:26.880 you know, when you're and I always say, you know, 307 00:20:26.920 --> 00:20:30.119 everybody's talking about suicide, will treating an edi disorders treating 308 00:20:30.160 --> 00:20:33.839 suicide because you know how many people with eating disorders 309 00:20:33.839 --> 00:20:39.839 commit suicide. So again it's seventy three. I just need 310 00:20:39.880 --> 00:20:42.839 to I get so frustrated. I want things to change 311 00:20:42.920 --> 00:20:50.480 and change quickly. And so yeah. 312 00:20:49.160 --> 00:20:52.279 So that's a great segue into this next question. So 313 00:20:53.160 --> 00:20:56.319 you wrote the book the Playbook of your childhood Heart. 314 00:20:57.720 --> 00:21:01.640 Can you tell us why message is so important and 315 00:21:01.720 --> 00:21:02.759 why you had to write it? 316 00:21:04.359 --> 00:21:08.680 Yeah, this is really kind of an

incredible story, really 317 00:21:08.720 --> 00:21:10.799 the whole foundation of. 318 00:21:12.640 --> 00:21:13.319 What I have. 319 00:21:14.799 --> 00:21:17.240 Been doing over the last few years. So I wrote 320 00:21:17.279 --> 00:21:19.519 Retune your Heart, and a friend of mine, good friend 321 00:21:19.519 --> 00:21:22.319 of mine called me one Friday afternoon and said, hey, 322 00:21:22.359 --> 00:21:25.880 don the book. It's really great, love everything about it. 323 00:21:26.000 --> 00:21:30.400 She said, but how do you do this? And I 324 00:21:30.640 --> 00:21:34.200 just kind of stopped in my tracks and I thought, 325 00:21:34.519 --> 00:21:37.799 you know what, why didn't I think of that? I mean, here, 326 00:21:37.839 --> 00:21:41.559 I wrote this sort of story of my own journey 327 00:21:41.640 --> 00:21:44.559 right from broken that what I hope comes across as 328 00:21:44.640 --> 00:21:48.039 my own journey from this sort of sense of brokenness 329 00:21:48.039 --> 00:21:52.680 to where I am today. But I never really shared 330 00:21:52.759 --> 00:21:56.480 with folks kind of what I view as being the 331 00:21:56.519 --> 00:22:00.559 pathway from point A to point B. So I took 332 00:22:00.680 --> 00:22:06.160 that brief telephone conversation on a walk with me and really, 333 00:22:06.440 --> 00:22:10.279 kind of remarkably, by Sunday afternoon, I had written the 334 00:22:10.319 --> 00:22:14.440 Playbook of Your Childhood Heart in the span of two days. 335 00:22:14.480 --> 00:22:17.680 And I say that I wrote it, but really, there 336 00:22:17.680 --> 00:22:21.000 are these moments in my writing and really in my 337 00:22:21.160 --> 00:22:25.880 life where I recognize that I am really just serving 338 00:22:26.119 --> 00:22:32.240 as a vessel or a conduit through which a hand 339 00:22:32.480 --> 00:22:36.519 and a heart much bigger than mine are sort of 340 00:22:37.400 --> 00:22:41.039 putting the words on paper. So the Playbook of Your 341 00:22:41.119 --> 00:22:45.640 Childhood Heart is sort of a journal companion to retune 342 00:22:45.680 --> 00:22:49.640 your heart. And it's really I like to view it 343 00:22:49.680 --> 00:22:54.400 as a self guided tour back to what I call 344 00:22:54.480 --> 00:22:58.480 your acoustic self, or back to the heart of your childhood, 345 00:22:58.559 --> 00:23:02.039 the heart that accompanied you in the world. And it's 346 00:23:02.279 --> 00:23:06.880 largely inspired by my now three year old granddaughter, Macy 347 00:23:08.400 --> 00:23:11.920 really is the inspiration for a lot of my writing 348 00:23:12.000 --> 00:23:19.079 these days. And yeah, so it is. It's a thirteen 349 00:23:19.160 --> 00:23:23.200 week exercise. Each week has it has a name to it, 350 00:23:23.640 --> 00:23:29.960 and it sort of encourages moments of reflection on your childhood, 351 00:23:30.440 --> 00:23:33.880 moments on reflection on those same issues as an adult, 352 00:23:34.559 --> 00:23:38.640 and then encouragement for how to sort of move from 353 00:23:38.640 --> 00:23:39.440 one to the other. 354 00:23:42.599 --> 00:23:42.920 Yeah. 355 00:23:43.000 --> 00:23:47.279 And I love your Monday Morning musings and with your 356 00:23:47.400 --> 00:23:53.319 pictures of Macy and let's se Yeah. So I follow 357 00:23:53.359 --> 00:23:58.200 those on LinkedIn all the time. So you put in 358 00:23:58.240 --> 00:24:01.880 a great, great deal of time writing and blacking and 359 00:24:01.920 --> 00:24:07.240 being a mental health advocate. It's it's incredible the amount 360 00:24:07.240 --> 00:24:11.519 of time and work you put into this. And so 361 00:24:11.640 --> 00:24:17.240 what's your why why behind all these endeavors endeavors? 362 00:24:18.160 --> 00:24:20.200 Yeah, Jack, I think it's a couple of things that 363 00:24:20.240 --> 00:24:22.440 we've touched on, right, one of the things that you 364 00:24:22.559 --> 00:24:26.680 touched on a moment ago. I just feel this compulsion 365 00:24:26.920 --> 00:24:32.000 to there, Right, how do we make sense of the 366 00:24:32.680 --> 00:24:36.880 of this profound period of darkness that all three of us, 367 00:24:37.880 --> 00:24:41.359 to differing obviously to differing degrees, have gone through in 368 00:24:41.400 --> 00:24:43.799 our life. How do you make sense out of that? 369 00:24:43.960 --> 00:24:48.200 How do you? How do you how do you bring 370 00:24:48.400 --> 00:24:52.599 some light out of that sense of darkness? So that's 371 00:24:52.720 --> 00:24:57.039 really one of the driving forces behind it, right, I don't, 372 00:24:57.799 --> 00:25:02.960 I don't. I want to honor the courage that my 373 00:25:03.119 --> 00:25:09.440 daughter displayed in her battles first with an eating disorder, 374 00:25:09.519 --> 00:25:12.359 and later with substance use disorder, which is both of 375 00:25:12.400 --> 00:25:16.599 you know is very common in the eating disorder experience. 376 00:25:18.839 --> 00:25:23.640 I want to show men that there is a power 377 00:25:23.960 --> 00:25:29.720 and vulnerability that you don't need to apologize for being 378 00:25:30.039 --> 00:25:37.200 a sensitive man in the world. And I guess one 379 00:25:37.240 --> 00:25:40.359 of the principal drivers in it is that I want 380 00:25:40.680 --> 00:25:45.200 my grandchildren Macy obviously, and I have a ten year 381 00:25:45.200 --> 00:25:48.640 old grandson named Jake. I want them to know me. 382 00:25:54.519 --> 00:26:02.319 And I want them to hear hear it from me. 383 00:26:04.599 --> 00:26:09.720 I want them to know everything about me, and I 384 00:26:09.880 --> 00:26:13.359 want them to know the impact that they have had 385 00:26:13.440 --> 00:26:21.799 and continue to have on my life. So, yeah, sort 386 00:26:21.839 --> 00:26:23.920 of the why of it, it's. 387 00:26:23.799 --> 00:26:26.799 Beautiful, and I can see the emotion in your why. 388 00:26:28.400 --> 00:26:28.640 Yeah. 389 00:26:28.759 -->

00:26:33.920 I mean it's as you know, people say to to us, 390 00:26:34.079 --> 00:26:37.440 you know, how do you do this? You know, how 391 00:26:37.440 --> 00:26:39.440 do you keep doing this? And I say, well, I 392 00:26:39.440 --> 00:26:43.599 don't know how. We can't keep doing this because Emily 393 00:26:43.880 --> 00:26:47.519 deserved it, all those others that have lost the battle 394 00:26:47.559 --> 00:26:50.799 deserve it, and all those that are struggling now that 395 00:26:52.480 --> 00:26:57.640 they deserve it. And and as you know, you know statistics, 396 00:26:57.799 --> 00:27:00.759 and you know, I hate statistics because that as they say, 397 00:27:00.839 --> 00:27:04.680 behind every statistic is a person, a person that's not 398 00:27:04.799 --> 00:27:08.039 here anymore, a person that's struggling or whatever. And when 399 00:27:08.039 --> 00:27:11.640 you see that, the fact that you know, only twenty 400 00:27:11.640 --> 00:27:14.359 percent of people that are that are struggling with the 401 00:27:14.519 --> 00:27:17.079 needing to sort of get get the help they need, 402 00:27:17.799 --> 00:27:22.680 and so many people you know that that say, oh, 403 00:27:22.759 --> 00:27:23.400 I was lucky. 404 00:27:23.519 --> 00:27:23.680 You know. 405 00:27:23.680 --> 00:27:26.759 The people were just at a college last week and 406 00:27:26.880 --> 00:27:28.640 one of the girls came up and you know, came 407 00:27:28.680 --> 00:27:30.960 to our table and talked to us, and as she 408 00:27:31.079 --> 00:27:34.039 was walking away, she goes, you know, I almost I 409 00:27:34.079 --> 00:27:37.400 almost died, but I got lucky. And you know, so, 410 00:27:39.680 --> 00:27:43.480 and there are tremendous resources in this country that aren't 411 00:27:43.480 --> 00:27:46.200 available in other countries. We talked to a woman in 412 00:27:46.279 --> 00:27:50.319 Canada the other day and Canada is the resources for 413 00:27:50.400 --> 00:27:54.960 any disorders are almost you knows, a lot less. You know, 414 00:27:55.079 --> 00:27:58.680 in the UK it's it's a battle. So but the 415 00:27:58.720 --> 00:28:03.599 resources here, if you have the means, you know, they're 416 00:28:03.799 --> 00:28:07.440 just they're not affordable for everybody. So part of the 417 00:28:07.440 --> 00:28:10.160 reasons people part of the reasons people that can help 418 00:28:10.200 --> 00:28:11.799 is the shame and the stigma of not coming out 419 00:28:11.799 --> 00:28:12.720 and asking for it. 420 00:28:13.319 --> 00:28:14.680 And then the. 421 00:28:16.720 --> 00:28:19.680 Huge, huge barrier and it has to be addressed. I mean, 422 00:28:19.680 --> 00:28:22.440 they're great resources and great people out there doing great work, 423 00:28:23.200 --> 00:28:26.799 but we have to address the affordability of it for 424 00:28:26.799 --> 00:28:27.160 for all. 425 00:28:27.319 --> 00:28:30.400 You know what, Yeah, one of the I sort of 426 00:28:31.200 --> 00:28:36.240 grew a little disenchanted by the by the bigger system 427 00:28:36.440 --> 00:28:42.480 and really sort of transitioned into working on a one 428 00:28:42.519 --> 00:28:45.759 on one with people who are actually suffering, right, I mean, 429 00:28:45.880 --> 00:28:48.519 because the reality is that there's also a lot of 430 00:28:48.519 --> 00:28:53.200 people who's the system or there are family systems that's 431 00:28:53.200 --> 00:28:55.880 sort of given up on them, right, It's been going 432 00:28:55.920 --> 00:29:03.720 on so long, everyone's exhausted. So just being available and 433 00:29:03.799 --> 00:29:06.359 I know you all can relate to this, I mean absolutely, 434 00:29:06.400 --> 00:29:09.759 being willing to being willing to listen, being willing to 435 00:29:09.839 --> 00:29:15.240 offer a word of encouragement, just an acknowledgement of the 436 00:29:15.279 --> 00:29:19.839 pain and of the suffering and of the struggle, and 437 00:29:20.079 --> 00:29:24.119 just kind of constantly serving as sort of a beacon 438 00:29:24.200 --> 00:29:28.000 of hope makes a difference. Maybe it doesn't make a 439 00:29:28.039 --> 00:29:31.240 difference on a grand scale, but sort of my view 440 00:29:31.279 --> 00:29:33.720 of the world has shifted a little bit in that, 441 00:29:34.759 --> 00:29:36.799 you know, all of us can make a difference in 442 00:29:37.519 --> 00:29:39.519 one part and that's a real difference. 443 00:29:42.319 --> 00:29:46.480 And sometimes it can save a life, you know what 444 00:29:46.480 --> 00:29:48.839 I mean, just to keep somebody going, you know what 445 00:29:48.880 --> 00:29:53.720 you mean. And it seems like so little, but it's not. 446 00:29:54.160 --> 00:29:58.160 But so many times and so many people who've struggled 447 00:29:58.640 --> 00:30:01.559 for a long time, the system does let them down. 448 00:30:01.599 --> 00:30:04.960 And people medical professionals have written off a lot of 449 00:30:05.000 --> 00:30:09.559 these people, and it's so sad. We just have to 450 00:30:09.559 --> 00:30:12.200 do better. And I think a lot of times that 451 00:30:12.359 --> 00:30:15.960 people don't understand. I think sometimes it's them protecting their 452 00:30:15.960 --> 00:30:18.640 own licensure. How do you say that word. 453 00:30:18.440 --> 00:30:21.839 Licencesure their own liability. I mean, they there's a liability 454 00:30:21.880 --> 00:30:24.680 out there, so they you know, they work with somebody 455 00:30:24.680 --> 00:30:28.119 and now they're afraid. You know, this isn't going to 456 00:30:28.559 --> 00:30:30.839 end in a recovery or it might be ending in 457 00:30:31.200 --> 00:30:33.680 a suicide, so they drop them. So now these people 458 00:30:33.680 --> 00:30:34.759 are out there with nobody. 459 00:30:34.880 --> 00:30:38.680 But I would say that there are so many wonderful, dedicated, 460 00:30:38.880 --> 00:30:42.039 caring professionals out there at the same time. So

absolutely, 461 00:30:42.039 --> 00:30:45.079 we just have to find a better balance and have 462 00:30:46.079 --> 00:30:49.880 people not be afraid. So I'm going to move on 463 00:30:49.960 --> 00:30:53.079 to another one of Allen's questions. I like this because 464 00:30:53.680 --> 00:30:57.279 I like I'm a person who loves hugs, I'm half Italian, 465 00:30:57.400 --> 00:31:01.079 so you know how that goes. So Allen's question is, 466 00:31:01.240 --> 00:31:04.759 let's talk about the power of hugs. Your reflections I'm 467 00:31:04.799 --> 00:31:07.240 growing up in a house where hugs were scarce or 468 00:31:07.319 --> 00:31:11.559 non existent are a stark contrast to my own experience. 469 00:31:12.079 --> 00:31:15.039 I am a hugger. Sometimes a hug is all that 470 00:31:15.119 --> 00:31:18.200 needs to be said. What are your insights now and 471 00:31:18.240 --> 00:31:22.359 what truly brings meaning to our daily lives? And I 472 00:31:22.400 --> 00:31:24.200 know you spoke to this a little bit before, but 473 00:31:24.240 --> 00:31:26.359 there might be a little something you want to add more. 474 00:31:27.519 --> 00:31:35.759 Yeah, I'm very animated about what I like to call 475 00:31:36.039 --> 00:31:40.960 drive by hugs, which I think we're all sort of 476 00:31:41.759 --> 00:31:45.240 or many are accustomed to in the adult world. Right. 477 00:31:47.279 --> 00:31:50.279 They're incredibly lame. And yet I say that, and I 478 00:31:50.359 --> 00:31:53.759 realized that probably for the first fifty years of my life, 479 00:31:54.480 --> 00:31:58.359 largely because I think of what was modeled in my 480 00:31:58.480 --> 00:32:03.440 childhood home. I just didn't really I didn't get it 481 00:32:03.559 --> 00:32:07.319 where hugs were concerned, Like, what's the big deal? I mean, 482 00:32:07.359 --> 00:32:11.319 I got the you know what I call the vacuous 483 00:32:11.400 --> 00:32:16.920 hug that is kind of a physical event, but there's 484 00:32:17.000 --> 00:32:19.880 really nothing behind it. And that's sort of what I 485 00:32:19.880 --> 00:32:26.680 grew up with and really again to Ashley's journey, I 486 00:32:27.000 --> 00:32:31.440 began to appreciate, you know, the value of a hug. 487 00:32:32.559 --> 00:32:35.519 You know, you didn't you didn't have to do anything 488 00:32:35.640 --> 00:32:39.720 to fix something. You could actually just hold and be 489 00:32:39.920 --> 00:32:47.759 held and sort of the restorative power of a well 490 00:32:47.920 --> 00:32:54.079 given hug is sort of hard to capture. Right. So, 491 00:32:54.680 --> 00:32:57.400 and my daughter was the same way, no surprise, right, 492 00:32:57.599 --> 00:33:01.319 didn't really want anything to do with hugging. This was 493 00:33:01.400 --> 00:33:04.680 sort of a reflection I think in part of her 494 00:33:04.799 --> 00:33:09.559 the like insistence on independence and wanting to do it, 495 00:33:10.079 --> 00:33:13.680 you know, convinced she could do it all herself, and 496 00:33:13.960 --> 00:33:18.559 merely didn't. She was never a snuggler. My son was 497 00:33:18.680 --> 00:33:23.119 very much a snuggler. Actually not so much so we 498 00:33:23.240 --> 00:33:26.920 actually sort of made fun of ourselves about it when 499 00:33:26.960 --> 00:33:32.599 we started moving into this new world hug if you will. 500 00:33:32.720 --> 00:33:35.559 So I would, for example, go to there was a 501 00:33:35.599 --> 00:33:38.759 period of time where I was taking her to work 502 00:33:40.480 --> 00:33:43.119 and I would drive up in the driveway and she 503 00:33:43.160 --> 00:33:45.799 would come out the door and we would like run 504 00:33:45.880 --> 00:33:48.759 to each other and do this very dramatic, kind of 505 00:33:49.680 --> 00:33:52.960 movie quality hug, you know, and we would say, we 506 00:33:53.039 --> 00:33:57.160 suck at hugging so badly, you know, and we just 507 00:33:57.240 --> 00:34:00.240 sort of made a game of just really practicing it 508 00:34:00.400 --> 00:34:05.640 for you know, some period of time. And now it's just, uh, 509 00:34:06.400 --> 00:34:12.440 it's sort of an indispensable part of my heart art inventory, right. 510 00:34:12.559 --> 00:34:17.360 I mean I sort of measure individuals and relationships by 511 00:34:17.360 --> 00:34:22.639 the quality of the hug. So yeah, major transition for me. 512 00:34:23.480 --> 00:34:26.920 And I now have like the top five huggers in 513 00:34:27.000 --> 00:34:29.559 my life, and I let them know like where they 514 00:34:29.599 --> 00:34:32.519 fall on the hierarchy so they can work to improve 515 00:34:32.559 --> 00:34:36.039 if they feel like they really need to be number one. 516 00:34:37.440 --> 00:34:40.079 And as you were talking about this, and I know, 517 00:34:40.440 --> 00:34:44.159 going back to routine, your heart and your you're walking 518 00:34:44.239 --> 00:34:50.039 and meeting people on your walks and stuff. You know, 519 00:34:50.559 --> 00:34:53.000 you don't always have to go up and give somebody 520 00:34:53.000 --> 00:34:57.360 a big hug, but just a smile or just a 521 00:34:57.440 --> 00:35:01.280 you know, a conversation with them or something can make people, 522 00:35:01.639 --> 00:35:04.000 you know, feel better. You know, there's so many people 523 00:35:04.039 --> 00:35:08.800 now that are on their phones. They've got their headphones 524 00:35:08.840 --> 00:35:12.320 on while they're walking, and they just don't interact with people. 525 00:35:12.639 --> 00:35:16.599 And I don't want to stereotype the young people, but 526 00:35:16.960 --> 00:35:19.559 I just see it so much of their lack of 527 00:35:19.639 --> 00:35:22.880 communication skills and stuff there, and so. 528 00:35:23.079 --> 00:35:25.880 Just well, and some people aren't comfortable with touch, and 529 00:35:25.920 --> 00:35:29.559 you have to respect that too. So I always before, 530 00:35:29.599 --> 00:35:32.480 if I don't know somebody that

well, I say, are 531 00:35:32.480 --> 00:35:34.480 you Are you comfortable with a hug? Are you okay 532 00:35:34.480 --> 00:35:35.199 with a hug? So? 533 00:35:35.800 --> 00:35:38.719 Yeah, But I just think it can make somebody's day 534 00:35:39.000 --> 00:35:42.440 if you just, you know, walk by somebody and just say, hey, 535 00:35:42.480 --> 00:35:45.960 how's good morning, how are you today? You know, and 536 00:35:46.000 --> 00:35:48.519 that can open up a conversation. I've had so many 537 00:35:48.519 --> 00:35:53.159 conversations with people just by saying hello, you know so, And. 538 00:35:53.599 --> 00:35:57.320 It's it's interesting you say that. I actually have been 539 00:35:57.400 --> 00:36:00.239 working on this little project of a little but I'm 540 00:36:00.239 --> 00:36:06.000 putting together for Macy that's entitled Word Hugs, and it's 541 00:36:06.119 --> 00:36:09.840 just a collection of writings that she's inspired that I 542 00:36:09.960 --> 00:36:12.880 want to give to her as a keepsake. And it 543 00:36:13.000 --> 00:36:14.840 was funny when I was talking to her about it 544 00:36:14.920 --> 00:36:18.400 on the phone the other day, I said, Macy, do 545 00:36:18.440 --> 00:36:21.760 you think a word can give you a hug? And 546 00:36:21.800 --> 00:36:26.599 she said yes? And I just thought that was like 547 00:36:26.760 --> 00:36:30.880 such a beautiful moment, and I just smiled about it 548 00:36:30.920 --> 00:36:33.960 because I agree, Jack, there's all kinds of non physical 549 00:36:34.039 --> 00:36:38.679 ways to sort of wrap people in a warm sense 550 00:36:38.840 --> 00:36:46.639 that they are, that they're valued, that they're important, that 551 00:36:46.679 --> 00:36:50.039 they're being cared for, you know, and it's not hard 552 00:36:50.079 --> 00:36:53.000 to do in today's world, right, I mean, there are 553 00:36:53.079 --> 00:36:57.039 so many vehicles available to us now that weren't available 554 00:36:57.440 --> 00:37:00.480 when the three of us were growing up. To let 555 00:37:00.519 --> 00:37:03.920 other people know that they're being noticed, that they're seen, 556 00:37:04.159 --> 00:37:08.360 that they're valued. It's just checking in. It takes a 557 00:37:08.400 --> 00:37:11.559 matter of seconds, but it makes all the difference in 558 00:37:11.599 --> 00:37:13.519 the world. 559 00:37:14.039 --> 00:37:14.280 You know. 560 00:37:14.360 --> 00:37:16.559 I'll frequently in the course of the day, I'll just 561 00:37:16.639 --> 00:37:19.360 pick three or four people and I'll just drop them 562 00:37:19.360 --> 00:37:22.440 a simple node or maybe it's a text, or it's 563 00:37:22.480 --> 00:37:26.079 a message on one of the many social media platforms, 564 00:37:26.079 --> 00:37:29.039 and just say simply, you know, I just want you 565 00:37:29.119 --> 00:37:32.679 to know that you're on my heart today. I mean, 566 00:37:33.000 --> 00:37:37.920 simple gestures like that make a profound difference. And more 567 00:37:37.960 --> 00:37:40.920 often than not, I'll get a response that says, I 568 00:37:40.960 --> 00:37:43.519 can't believe the timing of this. It came, you know, 569 00:37:43.599 --> 00:37:46.920 in a moment when I really needed just a few 570 00:37:46.960 --> 00:37:51.920 words of encouragement or affirmation. We can all make that 571 00:37:52.039 --> 00:37:53.440 contribution in the world. 572 00:37:54.079 --> 00:37:55.639 Yeah, absolutely forgot. 573 00:37:55.679 --> 00:37:59.159 We can't keep we can't keep waiting for these big 574 00:37:59.199 --> 00:38:03.239 institutions to be the instruments of change, I guess is 575 00:38:03.280 --> 00:38:05.920 what I'm saying. I mean, we can sit around waiting 576 00:38:05.960 --> 00:38:09.719 for legislation in the eating disorder field for the rest 577 00:38:09.760 --> 00:38:12.960 of our lives, you know, we can sit around waiting 578 00:38:13.079 --> 00:38:16.159 for them to do, for the world to do what's 579 00:38:16.320 --> 00:38:22.519 right relative to investing the dollars necessary to support research 580 00:38:22.599 --> 00:38:25.519 in the eating disorder field, all of these things. But 581 00:38:25.599 --> 00:38:30.079 where you and I and many others can make a 582 00:38:30.159 --> 00:38:34.760 real difference is sort of in these grassroots efforts. Just 583 00:38:35.920 --> 00:38:39.800 taking a moment to let someone know that they're noticed. 584 00:38:41.480 --> 00:38:43.480 Yeah, no, and I can. 585 00:38:45.400 --> 00:38:47.920 No, I can speak to that from my childhood, right, 586 00:38:47.960 --> 00:38:51.440 I mean that was we talked earlier about. You know, 587 00:38:51.679 --> 00:38:54.719 what was the experience? Well, I mean, there are a 588 00:38:54.760 --> 00:38:59.800 few experiences in the world that are more disheartening than 589 00:39:00.199 --> 00:39:04.159 not being noticed, right then, feeling that you have to 590 00:39:04.199 --> 00:39:08.000 set yourself on fire for someone to take notice of 591 00:39:08.039 --> 00:39:11.360 the fact that you're struggling. We just have to stop 592 00:39:11.440 --> 00:39:16.280 doing that. If we pay closer attention, you can see 593 00:39:16.400 --> 00:39:19.880 folks who are hurting, who are struggling, and you can 594 00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:24.360 offer some words that let them know, Hey, I'll walk 595 00:39:24.400 --> 00:39:26.000 alongside you. I'm here. 596 00:39:28.119 --> 00:39:32.679 Your message is really powerful, and I hope that there's 597 00:39:32.760 --> 00:39:34.920 a lot of people who listen to this podcast, and 598 00:39:35.039 --> 00:39:38.840 especially a lot of males, because it's such a special 599 00:39:38.920 --> 00:39:45.480 quality to have that sensitivity and compassion, and when a 600 00:39:45.519 --> 00:39:50.519 loved one, especially a child, is struggling, you love them 601 00:39:50.679 --> 00:39:54.280 more than life itself. They're everything. And it's a very 602 00:39:54.480 -->

00:39:59.199 very hard thing to deal with because of the powerlessness 603 00:40:00.159 --> 00:40:03.239 we feel. But those little things are things that everybody 604 00:40:03.320 --> 00:40:07.920 can do. And and I imagine with what your daughter 605 00:40:08.000 --> 00:40:11.039 went through and what you went through as a child 606 00:40:11.199 --> 00:40:14.320 when her eating disorder surface, it had to be doubly 607 00:40:15.440 --> 00:40:17.480 hard on you on so many different levels. 608 00:40:17.519 --> 00:40:20.719 But I so so on that note, because it's a 609 00:40:20.719 --> 00:40:24.320 good transition. I on to flip question seven and eight, 610 00:40:24.679 --> 00:40:29.400 So go ahead. Yeah, so what Linda just said from 611 00:40:29.400 --> 00:40:32.440 a father's perspective, can you share some of your journey 612 00:40:33.440 --> 00:40:37.559 with your daughter and her eating disorder? Because I, you know, 613 00:40:37.599 --> 00:40:41.320 I as I go through this, and we have groups, 614 00:40:41.400 --> 00:40:44.320 and I say, where are the dads? You know, we 615 00:40:44.400 --> 00:40:47.960 have so many mothers out there and and our meetings 616 00:40:48.000 --> 00:40:50.559 and virtual meetings and stuff, and where are the dads? 617 00:40:50.880 --> 00:40:51.119 You know? 618 00:40:51.320 --> 00:40:56.119 So yeah, yeah, yeah, Jack, you know I was privileged 619 00:40:56.159 --> 00:41:00.639 to be invited to speak at nita's annual conference in 620 00:41:00.639 --> 00:41:04.360 twenty thirteen on the heels of the publication of Dear Ashley. 621 00:41:04.400 --> 00:41:07.800 Because you know, I was the bearded woman at the 622 00:41:07.840 --> 00:41:11.119 circus right as you just point out what a dad 623 00:41:11.239 --> 00:41:14.199 has written something? What's this all about? 624 00:41:14.280 --> 00:41:14.519 You know? 625 00:41:15.119 --> 00:41:16.960 So they said, hey, don would you come to the 626 00:41:17.000 --> 00:41:19.320 conference and talk to dads. I said, I'd love to 627 00:41:19.360 --> 00:41:21.840 do that. So I put together this. You know what 628 00:41:21.920 --> 00:41:26.800 I thought, was this really inspirational message for dads. Walked 629 00:41:26.800 --> 00:41:30.639 into the room, found out that there were six hundred 630 00:41:30.679 --> 00:41:34.719 and thirteen registrants for the NITA conference in twenty thirteen, 631 00:41:35.239 --> 00:41:40.280 and one was a man. It was Mike Barrett, you 632 00:41:40.320 --> 00:41:43.239 know who you all may know, the founder of Center 633 00:41:43.280 --> 00:41:46.719 for Change. Mike and I are since become good friends. 634 00:41:47.519 --> 00:41:50.440 But the room is filled with mothers and daughters, and 635 00:41:50.480 --> 00:41:54.440 I'm delivering a message for dads, you know, navigating your 636 00:41:54.519 --> 00:41:59.480 daughter's eating disorder. And I drove away from that conference 637 00:42:00.159 --> 00:42:04.440 was in disbelief, Jack, I mean

complete disbelief. I said, 638 00:42:04.440 --> 00:42:08.000 how is this even possible? And of course, by then, 639 00:42:09.079 --> 00:42:14.079 again a disclaimer, I didn't start here, right, I started 640 00:42:14.159 --> 00:42:19.039 like every other dad, you know, fix you guys, go 641 00:42:19.119 --> 00:42:21.320 over there and fix it. Bring her back to me 642 00:42:21.400 --> 00:42:25.480 when she's better. That was the starting point, right until 643 00:42:25.519 --> 00:42:30.039 I became educated and I realized sort of the critical 644 00:42:30.119 --> 00:42:35.360 role that dads really should be playing in their daughter's 645 00:42:35.440 --> 00:42:38.960 treatment and recovery journeys. And so I drove away from 646 00:42:38.960 --> 00:42:41.360 that conference and I said, we got to change this. 647 00:42:41.719 --> 00:42:44.440 So before I literally had driven home, the conference was 648 00:42:44.480 --> 00:42:47.119 in Tampa. I was living in Miami at the time. 649 00:42:48.000 --> 00:42:51.639 I had formulated this idea that I ultimately called the 650 00:42:51.719 --> 00:42:56.639 Dad Initiative, and that was designed to really kind of 651 00:42:56.800 --> 00:43:01.000 try and promote this idea that dad's need to be 652 00:43:01.199 --> 00:43:05.119 more involved in the process. And I really spent the 653 00:43:05.159 --> 00:43:10.440 next five years going around the country trying to spread 654 00:43:10.440 --> 00:43:13.199 this message of dads and daughters. That really became the 655 00:43:13.199 --> 00:43:16.960 focus of my work in the eating disorder community for 656 00:43:17.159 --> 00:43:24.639 the next several years. No, it needs to change, but 657 00:43:24.760 --> 00:43:29.639 I think, you know, in fairness to dads, I think 658 00:43:29.679 --> 00:43:32.679 there's this sense that you know, when our daughters are 659 00:43:32.800 --> 00:43:37.599 very young, we're engaged, right, We're fully engaged daddy's little girl, 660 00:43:37.639 --> 00:43:39.920 the whole thing. And then as they start to mature 661 00:43:41.719 --> 00:43:45.719 into adulthood, I think there's this sense that maybe I'm 662 00:43:45.760 --> 00:43:51.280 not you know, I don't really understand this whole transition 663 00:43:51.400 --> 00:43:54.519 to womanhood thing that's going on. Let's let the mom 664 00:43:54.719 --> 00:43:56.599 sort of deal with that, and I'll stand on the 665 00:43:56.639 --> 00:44:00.960 sidelines and cheerlead. But what dads don't realize is. 666 00:44:00.840 --> 00:44:01.400 Like this. 667 00:44:02.800 --> 00:44:06.400 Profound role that they play in their in their daughter's 668 00:44:06.480 --> 00:44:10.360 lives and in their daughter's psyche. And I only came 669 00:44:10.440 --> 00:44:13.679 to that realization when I was sitting in a therapist's 670 00:44:13.719 --> 00:44:17.159 office and the therapist had added Ashley to write a 671 00:44:17.239 --> 00:44:21.840 letter to me about her struggles with her eating disorder, 672 00:44:21.960 --> 00:44:26.760 and she read it to me in that therapy room 673 00:44:26.960 --> 00:44:33.760 and it broke me. Right, means, that was the moment 674 00:44:33.800 --> 00:44:38.719 that I realized I gotta, I gotta go all in here, 675 00:44:41.519 --> 00:44:45.039 because I don't think dads fully appreciate the extent to 676 00:44:45.119 --> 00:44:51.960 which their daughters, in particular want to avoid disappointing their dads. 677 00:44:53.480 --> 00:44:57.519 Yeah, yeah, man, that our kids would always say when 678 00:44:57.519 --> 00:45:00.480 they'd come home and they'd bring grades home or whatever, 679 00:45:00.760 --> 00:45:04.920 and and Linda say, oh, guys, you guys did great, 680 00:45:05.000 --> 00:45:07.480 you know, or whatever they did. You know, it was 681 00:45:07.559 --> 00:45:10.199 a sporting event or whatever, you guys did great. And 682 00:45:10.239 --> 00:45:13.519 they'd say oh, Mom, you know, you think everything we 683 00:45:13.599 --> 00:45:16.559 do is great. But you know, Dad, you know, but 684 00:45:16.599 --> 00:45:19.039 I never put pressure on them. I don't know if 685 00:45:19.039 --> 00:45:23.960 it was there again, that internal pressure to please me 686 00:45:24.039 --> 00:45:27.039 more or whatever. I never, you know, said oh, you guys, 687 00:45:27.079 --> 00:45:28.639 you got to do better. Oh you've got to be 688 00:45:28.880 --> 00:45:29.920 you know, because but. 689 00:45:29.920 --> 00:45:35.480 You're more subdued and I'm more emotional, and you know, 690 00:45:36.159 --> 00:45:38.079 do things in a big way and you do things 691 00:45:38.079 --> 00:45:40.480 in a smaller way. But you never did put pressure 692 00:45:40.519 --> 00:45:43.400 on them, but you're you're quieter about it. I guess 693 00:45:42.880 --> 00:45:44.719 maybe that was it. I don't know. 694 00:45:44.880 --> 00:45:47.119 Yeah, And Emily put pressure on herself. I always say, 695 00:45:47.199 --> 00:45:48.920 you know, she'd come home and get a ninety five 696 00:45:48.960 --> 00:45:50.840 and her best friend had in ninety six, and then 697 00:45:50.880 --> 00:45:54.719 she'd be upset because you know, Kelly beat her. 698 00:45:54.840 --> 00:46:01.239 So it's okay, you know, I think there there are 699 00:46:01.280 --> 00:46:03.519 always things we can look back at and you know, 700 00:46:03.599 --> 00:46:06.679 wish we'd have done differently. But we're learning as we go. 701 00:46:07.079 --> 00:46:12.280 Our children are our best teachers, absolutely. And there's a saying, 702 00:46:12.440 --> 00:46:15.480 and you can this is a saying about mothers, but 703 00:46:15.559 --> 00:46:18.599 I think fathers need to be put in this one too, 704 00:46:18.639 --> 00:46:22.760 that a mother can only be as happy as our 705 00:46:22.840 --> 00:46:27.320 unhappiest child, and you know, we carry all those hurts 706 00:46:27.360 --> 00:46:29.519 with us and we want so much to make things better, 707 00:46:30.119 -->

00:46:34.519 and you know, we all do what we can do, 708 00:46:34.559 --> 00:46:37.639 and sometimes things work out, and you know, sometimes they don't. 709 00:46:37.679 --> 00:46:40.559 But I always say to know that the love was 710 00:46:40.599 --> 00:46:47.039 always there is the most important thing. And the question Yeah, okay, 711 00:46:48.119 --> 00:46:53.320 so I have a question here number Yeah, okay, this 712 00:46:53.480 --> 00:46:58.239 is no I know. Okay, Well I'm gonna I'm going 713 00:46:58.320 --> 00:47:00.119 to change up the order again and I'm going to 714 00:47:00.119 --> 00:47:02.599 say Ellen's question now and then I'll use that one 715 00:47:02.639 --> 00:47:04.440 later because I think that'll be a nice way to 716 00:47:04.599 --> 00:47:10.519 finish up. So Don, it's my This is Allan's voice again. Don, 717 00:47:10.719 --> 00:47:13.920 this is my understanding that you initiated the Legacy of 718 00:47:13.960 --> 00:47:18.599 Hope Summit, a consensus based initiative and report on eating 719 00:47:18.639 --> 00:47:22.920 disorders in the US. The report was published in twenty 720 00:47:23.119 --> 00:47:25.880 twenty November of twenty twenty one, and it outlines a 721 00:47:25.920 --> 00:47:29.719 framework for addressing critical gaps in eating disorder care in 722 00:47:29.719 --> 00:47:36.840 the United States, focusing on four key areas prevention, early detection, accessibility, 723 00:47:36.960 --> 00:47:42.920 affordability and accountability, standards of care, research, and funding, highlighting 724 00:47:42.960 --> 00:47:46.639 that current funding is not commeasure it with the severity 725 00:47:46.880 --> 00:47:51.960 of these illnesses. What inspired you to lead this important initiative? 726 00:47:53.519 --> 00:47:58.119 Yeah, so sometime, I guess in late twenty twenty nineteen, 727 00:47:58.360 --> 00:48:04.039 I just Berkeley was seeing the dysfunction in the eating 728 00:48:04.039 --> 00:48:08.840 disordered community reach an all time high. And I had 729 00:48:08.880 --> 00:48:12.639 been I had stepped away from the national picture for 730 00:48:13.000 --> 00:48:16.920 several years, as I mentioned, to really start focusing on individuals. 731 00:48:18.239 --> 00:48:25.719 But I just felt compelled to dive back in in 732 00:48:25.800 --> 00:48:28.960 a big way. So I took a chance. Right in 733 00:48:29.000 --> 00:48:31.639 the ten years that I had spent in the industry, 734 00:48:31.719 --> 00:48:39.239 I had really made friends with a number of very 735 00:48:39.320 --> 00:48:43.480 highly respected people in the field. So I decided to 736 00:48:43.519 --> 00:48:45.719 send all of them a letter. It was a simple 737 00:48:45.800 --> 00:48:50.280 letter invitation. I was convinced that we could do better. 738 00:48:51.400 --> 00:48:59.039 I was convinced that prior efforts to find consensus could 739 00:48:59.039 --> 00:49:01.880 have worked. So I wrote them all a letter, and 740 00:49:01.960 --> 00:49:05.119 I said, look, I've got an idea. I want to 741 00:49:05.159 --> 00:49:08.960 gather all of the leading experts in the country in 742 00:49:09.000 --> 00:49:12.000 one place for a weekend. I want us to just 743 00:49:13.840 --> 00:49:18.360 sit down in rooms and figure this thing out in 744 00:49:18.400 --> 00:49:23.360 those five areas that you mentioned, Linda, and I was 745 00:49:23.400 --> 00:49:28.840 really blown away, and who am I right. I'm a 746 00:49:28.920 --> 00:49:34.119 dad of a young woman, like millions of other young 747 00:49:34.159 --> 00:49:37.800 women and young men, suffered from an eating disorder. And 748 00:49:42.039 --> 00:49:45.119 more than two dozen of them wrote back, almost by 749 00:49:45.159 --> 00:49:51.880 return mail, that they would be willing to participate in 750 00:49:51.960 --> 00:49:57.159 this exercise. They did so on their own dime. I 751 00:49:57.199 --> 00:50:02.920 didn't really on any poor of it. They all flew 752 00:50:03.159 --> 00:50:05.519 to Dallas, where I was living at the time. We 753 00:50:05.559 --> 00:50:10.960 met in my law office for a weekend. I created 754 00:50:11.239 --> 00:50:16.679 outlines in each of these areas. Twenty four of the 755 00:50:16.800 --> 00:50:21.559 leading experts in the world. Really, they went in five 756 00:50:21.599 --> 00:50:26.119 different conference rooms and they hammered out a blueprint for 757 00:50:26.320 --> 00:50:32.360 moving the industry, the community forward in all of those 758 00:50:32.440 --> 00:50:39.559 five areas. And I spent the next year writing the 759 00:50:39.639 --> 00:50:45.239 results of the summit into a report that ultimately was 760 00:50:45.280 --> 00:50:49.840 published in the International Journal of Eating Disorders. More than 761 00:50:49.840 --> 00:50:58.320 one hundred and fifty folks from around the country, dietitians, practitioners, researchers, accommeditions, 762 00:50:58.400 --> 00:51:03.199 people with lived experience all signed off on the report 763 00:51:03.239 --> 00:51:06.719 as well. And yeah, it's pretty remarkable. 764 00:51:07.239 --> 00:51:10.519 Wow, And you were the catalyst for so much of it. 765 00:51:10.679 --> 00:51:14.039 What a remarkable man you are. And it's just to 766 00:51:14.159 --> 00:51:20.559 take that under your under your wing and it's so important. 767 00:51:20.599 --> 00:51:22.480 I mean, it's just and as you know, this was 768 00:51:22.719 --> 00:51:26.280 so that was twenty nineteen. Here we are twenty twenty six, 769 00:51:26.519 --> 00:51:30.000 and you know, so many of those things still still 770 00:51:31.320 --> 00:51:34.519 need to be need to be addressed, almost all of 771 00:51:34.519 --> 00:51:38.920 them still need to be addressed. And again I don't 772 00:51:40.159 --> 00:51:42.880 there's so many great people out there in the big organizations, 773 00:51:42.960 --> 00:51:45.559 you know, and and and is the more and more 774 00:51:45.599 --> 00:51:51.360 we're

into this journey of the Emily Connection and the 775 00:51:51.360 --> 00:51:55.400 book and everything these podcasts we meet and come across 776 00:51:55.440 --> 00:52:00.599 so many more people that have such dedication and such 777 00:52:00.599 --> 00:52:04.920 a passion and a mission to make these changes. Yet 778 00:52:05.599 --> 00:52:06.920 no changes are being made. 779 00:52:08.400 --> 00:52:11.639 And yeah, there's a lot of reasons for that that 780 00:52:11.679 --> 00:52:15.800 we don't have time to get No, but I would 781 00:52:15.800 --> 00:52:17.719 be happy to talk more about it with y'all. 782 00:52:17.960 --> 00:52:20.960 Yeah, I would. I would like to stay in touch. 783 00:52:21.039 --> 00:52:25.800 This has been wonderful. Don Is there an excerpt from 784 00:52:26.039 --> 00:52:28.239 your book or one of your blogs that you'd like 785 00:52:28.320 --> 00:52:31.199 to share with our audience. I'm sure that it would 786 00:52:31.199 --> 00:52:32.800 be so well received. 787 00:52:34.360 --> 00:52:37.159 Yeah, there's a couple of short ones that I wanted 788 00:52:37.199 --> 00:52:39.159 to share. They're both out of the playbook, and I 789 00:52:39.199 --> 00:52:43.480 think they'd really be a great way to sort of 790 00:52:43.480 --> 00:52:47.960 wrap up our time together today. The first is taken 791 00:52:48.039 --> 00:52:51.880 from what I call Joy Week in the playbook, and 792 00:52:51.960 --> 00:52:56.840 it's entitled don't Lose Sight of Joy in the lyrics 793 00:52:56.840 --> 00:53:00.360 to a hauntingly beautiful and troublingly relatable then to the 794 00:53:00.400 --> 00:53:04.840 Barbie movie What was I Made for? Barbie Laments? I 795 00:53:04.880 --> 00:53:08.239 think I forgot how to be happy. Something I'm not, 796 00:53:09.239 --> 00:53:13.760 something I can be, something I wait for, something I'm 797 00:53:13.760 --> 00:53:17.559 made for. I don't know about you, but I've allowed 798 00:53:17.599 --> 00:53:20.559 myself to lose sight of joy far too often in 799 00:53:20.599 --> 00:53:24.880 my life. It's easy to do amidst the noise when 800 00:53:24.920 --> 00:53:30.840 you're preoccupied with adulting, when you are or believe you're 801 00:53:31.039 --> 00:53:35.880 super important, when you take yourself way too seriously, get 802 00:53:35.960 --> 00:53:39.679 miird in the doing rather than the living and the loving. 803 00:53:40.679 --> 00:53:43.639 The thing is, the more times you lose sight of joy, 804 00:53:44.199 --> 00:53:47.559 the harder it gets to find it again. You forget 805 00:53:47.639 --> 00:53:50.440 to where to look for it, what it feels like, 806 00:53:51.159 --> 00:53:57.400 how important it is. Some eventually stop looking, decide it's 807 00:53:57.599 --> 00:54:01.079 just not worth the effort. That they quote weren't meant 808 00:54:01.159 --> 00:54:04.960 to be happy close quote, resign themselves to a life 809 00:54:05.000 --> 00:54:10.400 devoid of it. My dad did that. Don't be that person. 810 00:54:11.519 --> 00:54:14.239 If you're in a season where you've lost sight of joy, 811 00:54:14.880 --> 00:54:18.639 take up the search. Try to remember where you found 812 00:54:18.679 --> 00:54:23.039 it the last time it went missing. Start there, and 813 00:54:23.119 --> 00:54:27.000 if you're still struggling to find it, consider looking where 814 00:54:27.000 --> 00:54:30.559 I most often do, in the heart of a little child, 815 00:54:31.440 --> 00:54:35.360 because joy tends to go where it knows it's always welcome. 816 00:54:37.880 --> 00:54:38.840 That's beautiful. 817 00:54:39.679 --> 00:54:44.880 And then the last piece, and this is just critically important. 818 00:54:46.119 --> 00:54:51.280 It's entitled boundless Love. I'll try and get through it. Yeah, 819 00:54:52.159 --> 00:54:56.599 I never do. Several years ago, I sat down for 820 00:54:56.639 --> 00:54:59.480 dinner with a therapist friend at a conference in the Midwest. 821 00:55:00.840 --> 00:55:04.119 We'd been corresponding for months via social media, but because 822 00:55:04.119 --> 00:55:07.639 we lived thousands of miles apart, had never met in person. 823 00:55:09.440 --> 00:55:12.800 Within minutes, my heart told me that its counterpart across 824 00:55:12.840 --> 00:55:16.559 the table was very special, and for the next two hours, 825 00:55:16.760 --> 00:55:19.679 my friend and I got out of their way and 826 00:55:19.880 --> 00:55:22.079 just let the two of them talk to one another. 827 00:55:23.239 --> 00:55:26.280 It was as if they'd known each other their entire lives. 828 00:55:27.599 --> 00:55:30.480 A few years later, I received a breakup dawn text. 829 00:55:31.480 --> 00:55:36.280 My friend had suffered an unspeakably dramatic family tragedy, one 830 00:55:36.320 --> 00:55:41.440 that I felt completely ill fitted to respond to. Late 831 00:55:41.480 --> 00:55:45.440 one night, in the midst of her overwhelming grief, I texted, simply, 832 00:55:46.280 --> 00:55:50.039 if it's any comfort, know this. I love you, and 833 00:55:50.159 --> 00:55:53.760 have since the day we met. There, I said it. 834 00:55:55.000 --> 00:55:58.440 Her response caught me a bit off guard. What kind 835 00:55:58.480 --> 00:56:04.199 of love are we talking about? Care to expand in retrospect, 836 00:56:04.320 --> 00:56:08.320 her question shouldn't have surprised me. After all, I too 837 00:56:08.360 --> 00:56:12.559 had long since grown accustomed to fitting love into not 838 00:56:12.719 --> 00:56:18.719 so neat little worldly appropriate box's, romantic, parental, familial, friend, etc. 839 00:56:19.599 --> 00:56:22.239 And to receive any and expressing it accordingly. 840 00:56:23.679 --> 00:56:25.360 The world insists. 841 00:56:24.880 --> 00:56:27.239 We do that virtually from the moment we dip our 842 00:56:27.280 --> 00:56:31.360 little toe into the muddy waters of adulting. You'll find 843 00:56:31.400 --> 00:56:33.719 my reply to my friend's text in one of the 844

00:56:33.760 --> 00:56:38.199 most powerful pieces in my book. It's entitled simply what 845 00:56:38.239 --> 00:56:44.079 do you think? For now? I offer this. Macie doesn't 846 00:56:44.159 --> 00:56:52.280 love that way. These spends every waking moment loving everyone 847 00:56:52.480 --> 00:56:56.960 whole and open heartedly, and I might add, apologizes to 848 00:56:57.079 --> 00:57:02.239 no one for her indiscriminants. He also receives love with 849 00:57:02.320 --> 00:57:05.840 the same reckless pedal to the metal abandoned. And here's 850 00:57:05.880 --> 00:57:09.840 the thing. Every heart that is lucky to be showered 851 00:57:09.920 --> 00:57:13.199 or even sprinkled with the droplet of that love is 852 00:57:13.239 --> 00:57:17.920 immeasurably brighter, lighter, and more joyful because of it. What 853 00:57:18.079 --> 00:57:21.880 kind of love am I talking about? The real kind, 854 00:57:22.719 --> 00:57:26.320 the boundless kind that accompanied all of us into this world, 855 00:57:27.119 --> 00:57:30.760 The soul deep kind, the tethered at the heart kind, 856 00:57:31.480 --> 00:57:34.320 the kind that was never meant to and never will 857 00:57:34.800 --> 00:57:38.639 fit neatly into a box. The kind of love I 858 00:57:38.719 --> 00:57:44.679 wish for all of you. That and a safe, whimsical, playful, 859 00:57:45.320 --> 00:57:48.840 joyful journey back to where it all began, to the 860 00:57:48.920 --> 00:57:52.960 eyes and art that accompanied you into this world, to 861 00:57:53.079 --> 00:57:57.039 your uniquely beautiful, authentic self. 862 00:57:59.599 --> 00:58:04.639 Wow, well you got through it, but I didn't. It 863 00:58:04.960 --> 00:58:10.440 is so Oh my gosh, beautifully said, beautifully written. What 864 00:58:10.559 --> 00:58:14.639 a great message. Well you had wish we had more time. 865 00:58:14.679 --> 00:58:17.000 We're coming to the end of time, our time here, 866 00:58:17.039 --> 00:58:24.920 but this has been unbelievably Again, these things just fill 867 00:58:24.960 --> 00:58:28.920 our hearts. I mean we just because we feel validated 868 00:58:28.960 --> 00:58:32.920 and appreciated, and to know there's another wonderful person in 869 00:58:32.960 --> 00:58:37.719 our circle is keeps us going. For sure. You have 870 00:58:37.840 --> 00:58:43.239 such an eloquent way of getting your message across and 871 00:58:43.360 --> 00:58:47.440 yet it's simple. Yet it's eloquently stated in a way 872 00:58:47.480 --> 00:58:51.199 that not many people could do. But we are so 873 00:58:51.280 --> 00:58:55.440 grateful that you could join us today. Thank you, Don. 874 00:58:56.719 --> 00:59:00.639 Is there really the pleasure is mind? God's I really? 875 00:59:02.000 --> 00:59:05.199 I just feel so privileged to be able to have 876 00:59:05.280 --> 00:59:07.320 spent this time with you, oldest morning. 877 00:59:08.480 --> 00:59:10.199 God, bless you. Thank you so much. 878 00:59:10.360 --> 00:59:11.400 We're going to stay. 879 00:59:11.639 --> 00:59:18.039 You're a forever connection and Emily connection, and Emily and 880 00:59:18.079 --> 00:59:21.519 all our Emily connections are sacred. So I'm sorry Ellen 881 00:59:21.559 --> 00:59:25.119 couldn't be with us today, but we want I want to. 882 00:59:25.840 --> 00:59:29.920 We want to extend our sincere gratitude to you, Don, 883 00:59:30.440 --> 00:59:33.639 to our listeners, and we'd like to thank rock Box 884 00:59:33.679 --> 00:59:39.159 Recording and Production and Scott Fitzgerald, the remarkable sound engineer 885 00:59:39.159 --> 00:59:43.000 who helps us for every podcast, for his exceptional production 886 00:59:43.119 --> 00:59:47.360 of the podcast today and so much more. Feeling very 887 00:59:47.360 --> 00:59:50.400 grateful and blessed today. And Don, what a great way 888 00:59:50.440 --> 00:59:52.719 to start our morning. Thank you so much,