התמלול המלא של Nervous Laughter with Hamja Ahsan, author of Shy Radicals - Part 2

dancers hold up. And this, you called it ‘toxic positivity’. But like, basically this practice of shame attacking. You have to, it's accompanied by, when it's done within rational emotive behaviour therapy is accompanied by unconditional self, other and life acceptance. So yeah. So the idea is that you have to believe that everyone is is inherently, has inherent value, right? Regardless of their performances. Yeah. So you have to convince yourself that like, and also like, the other thing about shame attacking is that you have to do it until you get the feared response, the response you feared most because you learn that actually, you can tolerate that. Yeah. So like, I have to, if I'm really going to practice shame attacking as a therapeutic practice, I have to constantly tell people when I don't know what they're talking about, and I have to constantly admit to not knowing until the point where maybe somebody does think I'm stupid, and then I have to sort of like, actually don't really care that they think I'm stupid. Or I'm still I'm still, I can still unconditionally accept myself. Regardless of that error. Hamja Ahsan  7:59   I understand. Oriana Fox  8:00   Yeah. So so that's what the that's where those words come from. It's like, you know, I’m not worthless. I'm worth something. I have some inherent worth and I have a right to kind of… Hamja Ahsan  8:15   That sounds like a variation of ‘Jesus loves you’. Oriana Fox  8:18   Yeah, that's what my father said. Actually, when I was telling him about it the first time. Yeah, I know. It sounds like a cult. [laughs] Hamja Ahsan  8:25   No, I mean that in an entirely positive way. I’m an ex-atheist, I've left atheism, I left humanism, I left rationalism in my early 20s. And like, that notion of like, unconditional love, so ‘Jesus loves you’, you don't have to do anything. It's beyond like instrumentality. I have some relatives who suffered from quite severe schizophrenia, and like, socially isolated, and people were like, yeah, but this relative’s a very good cook, or like, does something around the house. And it's like, that notion of instrumentalised rationality, like you have to be useful, in some way is actually the harmful thing. Or actually, she doesn't have to be. And that can be embodied in institutions politically, like the welfare system, like you just, I believe in universal basic income, or like, inalienable human rights. Like they're embedded in those ideas of what ‘Jesus loves you’, you're God's divine creation. Oriana Fox  9:35   I know. I know exactly what you're saying. And like, but yeah, I mean, it's a, it's an atheist. I mean, Albert Ellis, the person who founded our REBT [Rational Emotive Behaviour Therapy] is like, was a staunch atheist. So yeah, it was his way of, you know, trying to find an atheist way of kind of valuing ourselves and other people, that's, that's anti-fascist. But yeah, there's problems. I mean, because there's still normative, like within any kind of within any kind of psychotherapeutic paradigm, there's going to be normative values. Hamja Ahsan  10:09   The world of like, the spirituals on the side of the shy, sometimes, certain zones, like, I'm sure the Catholic Church has done some awful things. But sitting in a cathedral silent and saying nothing is like the ambience of it. And like sacred spaces, the zone of you don't have to say anything. You just be there. You're just there you just like, standing by candlelight, or like, the ornate, the architectural protection of those things. Other spiritual practices like Quaker silences, which I mentioned before, yeah. Yeah, like they're they, they like, and they turn around, like, I associate shyness with like being bullied inherently childhood bullying, like everyone would bully the shy kid, right? And so it's a reversal of values. So like, instead of being like, the runt of the pack, or the last to be picked on the team, or the lowest low, you're in company of the exalted for being shy for not saying anything through daydreaming through transcendental lostness. So yeah, the show. Hamja Ahsan  11:29   I love to I feel really just like… Oriana Fox  11:35   Yeah, because I guess because it was so jarring the beginning, I mean, was there anything in any of the interviews that was good? Hamja Ahsan  11:46   It’s not about goodness or badness, it's just more like that I feel like the world I belong to doesn't belong in that world. Right? Like, I like going into that area of East London I associate with, that’s the most that's the only place in the whole of the UK where like Muslims have political power. So like East London Mosque is like a huge, you can't win an election without going through them. And I haven't been there to pray, but I went there to like, campaign against Guantanamo Bay or like, show solidarity to other like, oppressed people. And like, so it's the same place you could just walk down the street and there will be loads of women in niqab, and I have a consciousness right now in this historical moment of that behaviour and being criminalised. And like, I remember listening to Brian talking about this intimacy, and like sharing a bed with someone and like, I was just thinking, like, I was like, do we coexist? Or do we live in the same? I don't know. Oriana Fox  12:55   Yeah, I do remember like, one of my camera operators, kind of the director photography for that episode was sort of like, ‘what the hell is Brian Lobel know about social anxiety? Like what the hell? Like I said, that's why I wanted to explain how, it was like about this conversation starters, and because my motivation for wanting to do it was my shyness, even though that wasn’t what motivated the choosing of the speakers. I wasn’t picking people were experts on shyness. I was picking experts on conversation and social practice, or having more challenging conversations or whatever. Yeah, people like Marcia who just likes talking a lot. Hamja Ahsan 

13:38   Yeah. It still has this ‘fireside chat’ feeling when you're actually speaking/ I don't think it's like. Yeah, I think because it's because you're not an actual real host. Are you a decoy of a host? No, I mean, you are actually a real host. But you're not… Oriana Fox  14:04   I’m not a very good host, I don't think. Hamja Ahsan  14:06   But I think there's something embodied in Oprah Winfrey's notion of like, universal normative life. And, like, it's no surprise to me, she goes on to be like an advocate for like, invasion and the war on terror. And like, the fact is like, this is how all people are like across the world, and these are the best values in the world. And there was a particular moment, which has been shared endlessly, which is when she does an interview Aishwarya Rai, the famous Bollywood actress, who still lives with her parents in like her, like late 30s and 20s. And that's quite common within like, South Asia, and still is. And then her finding that so like abhorrent and intolerable and like strange. Like, why this millionaire beautiful woman would choose to do that? And that's actually quite normative in like Indian society. But you're not Oprah Winfrey. I just went on a rant about Oprah Winfrey. Oriana Fox  15:07   I like to think of The O Show as like a parody of Oprah and that the stories of being told would not be status quo stories? That they would be anti normative… Hamja Ahsan  15:20   Yeah. Oriana Fox  15:23   I don’t know. I’d like to think that, I don't know. [laughs] Obviously, you don’t think so. Hamja Ahsan  15:27   But they are really normative. Sorry. Oriana Fox  15:44   That ended the conversation. Okay. Hamja Ahsan  15:53   I do, I just, there's plenty of things which are really normal and average in my life, that I just, I don't know where it sits, it's obviously not normal, and average. So I only feel like any experience gender and sexual diversity with my Muslim friends because they have such a spectrum of belief. Well, I feel like all my secular, liberal friends are actually quite homogeneous and multicultural. So for example, I have friends and colleagues I work with, they might not believe in like shaking hands or hugging or like being in the same presence or, but it's the whole spectrum. So, I have a series of Muslim female friends, like some, it's like, you go back and forth, and you know which one you can shake hands with and some you can't and some of them where like the niqab, some of them have standards of modesty, some of them don't. But there's all this spectrum of coexistence where I feel like it would be considered absurd for like, in other any other sphere of life or like not shaking hands to be considered strange, if I was outside those zones. I'm agnostic, so I'm an ex-atheist, but I'm actually agnostic about Islam. So I don't actually know what my actual…And then being in the art world in those areas, those are the areas where the Muslim migrant populations live. So I will walk past East London Mosque, when I go to the Whitechapel Gallery or whatever, or the Live Art Development Agency, I question and rewrite what part of myself belongs to each. But when the government we live in, and the global government we live in, whether even in India now you're having this eradicated, very violent. So I mean, a couple of days ago, 85 year old was burned to death in Delhi. So and then when I grew up with the Bosnians were killed because they had names like Fatima and Mohammed and when I go to Slovenia it’s still there, like the mosque there was just being built. And when I moved there, there was like 50, 60 years till it was actually accepted as being viable. Just, I don't think has been solved as an issue of like, coexistence and stuff. But there's flare ups. Or, there's like, you know, some mass shooting happens in Germany or somewhere or, or the other way around? I don't know. I don't know, what. So those were the like, things that were ever-present in my mind when I was watching it. I was thinking my friend Hassan E Vawda, he works at Tate. I call him as a joke ‘Tate Sheikh’, because he's a very sincere practising Muslim, but he lives in this art world and he tries to do Ramadan's and Eids. And I went to one of the Eids in Tate Modern and like, it was sad to see these, like, it was almost like self organised. It wasn't really given public institutional support. But he's very sincere about getting more interaction. Like there's a prayer room in Tate Modern behind like, a toilet. And like, there's one next to like, the Turner Prize ,there quite hidden spaces actually. I remember his parents coming to an art night, when they take over the whole area of London and make contemporary art in it. And his parents went like, “Oh, it's not for me.” And they went home, and then he felt really sad. It's like, with me, I wouldn't have no inkling that actually my parents would actually go in the first place. They'd probably feel it's not for me. Oriana Fox  19:41   So if it did appeal to them, then it would be anti normative?  Hamja Ahsan:  Yeah.  Oriana Fox:  [Laughs] Hamja Ahsan  19:56   That's such an interesting question actually. I'll have to… Oriana Fox  20:00   Well, it just reminds me of like, Brian [Lobel], when I asked him about, like, what makes him how he is like, because he doesn't feel any social anxiety at all, snd he says it's because he had that, his mother… Hamja Ahsan  20:09   Yeah. Oriana Fox  20:10   … modeled good behaviour and liking people. Hamja Ahsan  20:12   I also thought it was interesting that he described having such a loving mother as a privilege,  Oriana Fox:  Yeah. Hamja Ahsan So I like in the whole privilege to talk thing. I was like, oh, maybe that's why I'm so down on myself, like, because I don't have like mother love privilege My mother does love me, but she doesn't get what I do, not in a particularly sensitive away. Yeah. Oriana Fox  20:30   My mother loves me, but she's

a shy person, so she modeled shy behaviour that I copied. You know? My dad, on the other hand, is not shy at all. Hamja Ahsan  20:38   My dad doesn't really, I've never had a conversation with my dad in my life, actually. And people find that strange. I've actually never had, my his dad just likes to garden and read the Quran. Like you don't. I also I would sit in the car with my dad and I'll just like, stare at the raindrops on the window, or stare out the window. And that's what I do for the entire journey. And then I only realised later in life that people found that offensive or like, intolerable or sometimes violently intolerable. So I’d often be ganged up on because I, if I was in a coach journey on a school trip, I would just stare out the window or look at the raindrops. And I didn't understand what I was doing wrong. But I'd always have these accusing faces or been told quite horrible things like why would anyone want him or his parents want him? Why are you here? You know that sort of spare peg thing. And when you put that thing about the big signs up saying you are not worthless and stuff and so, saying I was staying in that mashed potato audience, and I was just like, in a melancholic daydreaming state, I'd feel worthless. I feel like… Oriana Fox  21:50   There were people who didn't stand. I mean, definitely, people like we always ask the, I always ask the audience, like, Who doesn't want to be filmed? And they get sat in a place where they're not filmed. So they're definitely like, I know someone who was in that audience who's not in the footage. Because she didn't want to be and she didn't get up and down. So yeah, you know, so to defend myself. [Laughs] Hamja Ahsan  22:11   No, that wasn't even an accusation on my part, I was just describing my existential state. Yeah. Oriana Fox  22:20   Well, I mean, Marcia also was saying how, just because you talk, but that doesn't mean you're not shy. Yeah. It's something Susie Scott talks about in her book [Shyness and Society]. Hamja Ahsan  22:30   Yeah, like performative shyness. Oriana Fox  22:34   No, but it's slightly different from that, it's like, let me see if I can find the quote. Oh, yeah. Period, as she says, quote, The privately shy person can be harder to identify. Shy extroverts appear confident, talkative, and gregarious and seem to be natural performers in social situations. Yet, the actors behind the performances often feel quite self-conscious. Unquote. Hamja Ahsan  23:00   Yeah. Oriana Fox  23:01   So it's kind of like, you know, Marcia [Farquhar] says, when she talks about the little man behind the curtain in The Wizard of Oz, sometimes there's a scared little man behind a big personality. Hamja Ahsan  23:14   Yeah. Oriana Fox  23:15   There might be another quote from Scott related to this. She talks about it again… Hamja Ahsan  23:22   Wow you have so many notes. Oriana Fox  23:25   Yeah. Hamja Ahsan  23:27   I did actually love that book. I highly recommend everyone read this book, Shyness and Society: The illusion of competence by Susie Scott, which is only a very expensive academic book, but I'm sure you could find it.  Oriana Fox  It’s so expensive. Hamja Ahsan It’s like £60 in hardback. So in some ways, she doesn't even want to be read either. She wants to be part of this unread academic library. Oriana Fox  23:47   [Laughs] It is a very academic book. I don't think it would have a… Hamja Ahsan  23:48   I think it's actually quite easy to read. Oriana Fox It is easy to read.  Hamja Ahsan Yes, it’s quite plain prose. I think it's also quite appealing, like a lot of the messages in there are quite appealing to other, you know, I wish it wasn't an academic book. I wish it was available for like a general market. So, my book is in like, it's an indie press, it’s by an art world thing. So it circulates in the ways, it's certainly not mass circulation. So I sometimes wonder whether we all want to aspire to like be this mainstream Jordan Peterson type celebrity, whatever, or just like living within… Even like, The O Show it's within an art world circulation, it isn't actually Oprah. It’s not on like some globalised television network.  Oriana Fox It has hardly any audience at all.  Hamja Ahsan 24:43 And obscurity is maybe like where we want to be? Oriana Fox  24:42   Yeah. I was just watching Chelsea Handler last night and thinking I wouldn't want to be talking to Shania Twain or whoever the hell else, I don’t even remember their name. Hamja Ahsan   [Laughs] Oriana Fox Yeah. Anyway, so this, I want to go back to this thing about shy people being able to be vocal and opinionated in online discussions. I’m, I know how you are on Facebook because like you're one of the few people I pay any attention to Facebook, like I just don't go onto Facebook. I guess it comes down to that whole like fearing I'm stupid thing. I don't feel like I know enough to be pontificating on the internet even about things. Hamja Ahsan  25:19   Sure, it’s weird because I actually… Oriana Fox  25:22   Whereas you obviously don’t have that same insecurity. Hamja Ahsan  25:23   I suppress 90% of my opinions. I actually I really do. I do, actually. And I don't partake, like, and it's not the case people have echo chambers. I actually disagree with like, half of my feed these days. I've moved Instagram actually because people are nicer. Oriana Fox  25:43   But you post like a million things a day?  Hamja Ahsan Oh, sorry. Oriana Fox No, don’t apologise. But what drives that? I don't have that in me to… Hamja Ahsan  25:52   Maybe when my brother was in prison. I was ultra ultra active.. Oriana Fox  25:57   I was thinking that that might be the reason like it might be to do with that because you talk about an interview about how that stopped you from being an armchair activist. Hamja Ahsan  26:04   Yeah, definitely. Yeah. That's why I became a public speaker. Oriana Fox  26:09  

That's the free Talha campaign that Hamja initiated and received many awards for and if you're interested in finding out more about that I can, I will put a note in the show notes. Hamja Ahsan  26:18   But it was a force of sincere authentic truth against the synthetic misinformation of the home office and the government. So it was like truth to power. Yeah. So I have no problem with like truth to power talk. Like I don't regard truth to power talk as belonging to the extroverts or selling out or loud people. The loud people are ones who want to like overshadow actual shining light of truth. And I will say it's weird because I don’t, I actually, my preferred mode of address is like, I prefer just speaking sincerely about how I'm feeling to like a crowd. [Laughs] Oriana Fox  27:00   [Laughs] Yeah, I think maybe I've heard that too. Maybe I know, I think I just prefer talking to someone I know well [Laughs] even if we disagree. Hamja Ahsan  27:09   [Laughs] There’s like an Autism arts fair in Kent. When you go to it, you get, which is a wonderful biennial, and can you get these accessibility packs, and it has free stickers: a red one, which says, like, I don't want to speak to anyone; like amber one, which means like, I just want to talk people I know. And like a green which means I'm happy to talk, but I struggle with communication. I wish I could just wear the badges all the time. And it also has like a fidget spinner and like an ear, noise blocker in the pack. But obviously, I'd love to have that in every single festival and attraction. I do. Yeah. Just sometimes I don't want to speak to anyone. I guess that's not that allowance of like thinking. It's always assumed as something negative, like, if you don't speak. Like, the main accusation is that you're being aloof or you think you're above them, whereas it's often not, it’s just because you're shy. Oriana Fox   Yeah, I get that a lot.  Hamja Ahsan  That's a common thing. So that's that form of epistemological violence where that's yeah, assumed. Also, would whole disciplines be possible without like the silent observer, like Erving Goffman is often thought of as the person standing by the wall, and looking, observing having an insight into everything. People are gonna listen to this, they need to see the room we're in. It's like a room full of books, old books, antiquarian books, resources library. It's like the antithesis of The O Show.  Oriana Fox Yeah, yeah it is.  Hamja Ahsan I don't know how many people see you outside your O Show persona, but yeah. Oriana Fox  28:58   Yeah. That’s why I called it Multiple Os because it's about the kind of yeah the different personas. Hamja Ahsan  29:06   I don't know whether Shy Radicles is my persona or it's just me? But I think also another thing that gives me affirmation of speaking in public is a sense of mission. Like, I know, I'm here I have a message and it's an important message. And that's why I'm speaking, I'm not speaking for

the sake of it. It’s like, why am I here? Like it sort of, it can be the most unsettling thing. If you want to make someone into a shy person, you just keep asking them, Why are you doing this? Why are you here? And sometimes you know that very firmly in a very anchored way, and that's why you speak and… Oriana Fox  29:48   So just being asked, What are you doing here? Why are you here? can make a person shy? Hamja Ahsan  29:54   Yeah, some person can manifest that in, yeah shy. Oriana Fox  30:02   Right, so that's like how shyness is produced externally as opposed to being a… Hamja Ahsan  30:12   So I didn't know whether that was… I call that stat ontological insecurity or like, lacking self-confidence. But I don't know, because you can be confidently shy. Oriana Fox  30:21   Then maybe if you're confidently shy, then it's, then it's no longer a concern for yourself or for society? Right? Hamja Ahsan  30:30   It's still a concern for society. I think it's more of a concern for society.  Oriana Fox Really?  Hamja Ahsan Yeah. Like even… Oriana Fox  30:37   Confidently shy people wouldn't be pathologized I don't think? Hamja Ahsan  30:40   Yeah, they would, I think, yeah, definitely, even more so. Shyness is never made to feel like they’re okay, or normal, until the introvert revolution.  Oriana Fox [Laughs] Yeah Hamja Ahsan There was like a domestic counterterrorism sign for like looking at signs of like terrorism or radicalization in children. And one of the signs was about social isolation and not speaking. And things which you'd associate with like a moody teenager or a depressive teenager or quiet teenager, they were all seen as security concerns. Like mutism is so threatening, like not speaking is so threatening. Going back to Greta Thunberg, I thought the most revolutionary thing she did is when she went on Trevor Noah, the mainstream chat show and she didn't make eye contact for the entire thing. And I just found that really affirming, but just so that totally subverts the power dynamics of mainstream TV. And like, lets so many other people in and she is not gonna be thought of as rude. She's changed the normativity of etiquette. Oriana Fox  31:53   Yeah. I’ve had people who’ve said to me, Oh, I when I first met you, I thought you were really rude.  Hamja Ahsan Yeah, me too. Oriana Fox Yeah, it's horrible. And so I try to go out of my way not to seem rude. Like because of that, and… Hamja Ahsan  32:05   But I feel like social norms are all defined without our participation in the first place. And historically it’s like, nothing about us without us. The same with like shaking hands. So like those ultra pious Muslim women who want to imitate like Ayesha, someone from Islamic history, who didn’t shake hands and now, it’s taken as a huge insult, both ways. And it's like, no, doesn't have to be. It’s an entirely different, epistemological framework of meaning, you know, in that case. When our behaviour has been misinterpreted as something it’s clearly not, what means do we have to publicly correct it? No, I wasn’t being rude. I mean apart from Instagram memes? Oriana Fox  32:52   I don't even know what that means. [Laughs] Hamja Ahsan  32:55   Where can we say that, like, I didn't make eye contact, I didn't speak, but it didn't mean that I was like, thinking I was above you? Like, does it have to be a character in like a soap opera? Or like, like, at a mass level, where, how would it be done? Oriana Fox  33:12   Phoebe [Davies] brings up unconscious bias training. Maybe that's where it could be corrected. Like, yeah, you know, if we have if everyone has unconscious bias training and they're taught not to be biassed against shyness Hamja Ahsan Yeah, that would be good.  Oriana Fox [Laughs] Oh, that person doesn't make eye contact, that doesn't mean they wouldn't be a good CEO. [Laughs] Hamja Ahsan  33:35   So this job interview in Edinburgh that one of my readers signed and sent to me, and it says, and the second part of interview will consider some sort of group activity, but we won't judge you on your introvert or extrovert ideals and whether that's a deficiency. I thought one of the people on the panel was Harry Guiles, who I know to have read Shy Radicals. And it also has quite a sizable following in Edinburgh where this job was, so I wondered whether it was already altering that dimension of employment practice? Ultimately, the way in which I will judge success is whether or not it's embedded into like policy, law and institutions. And so yeah, maybe that is what we want, like some sort of legislative, maybe workplace training, how not to… Oriana Fox  34:28   [Laughs] Yeah, how not to.. Hamja Ahsan  34:29   But I feel like the recruitment process in the first place is already like going to, because I understand that right. But I'm not going to be employed in that position of power to actually implement that as policy within my institution or like, recognise other people like myself… Oriana Fox  34:47   But like Phoebe says, something like I'm going to advocate for other people because we need to hear that voice. You know, so it's not necessarily that you would end up in the position of power, but the people in power might recognise you as the expert on this and therefore, bring you in to advise, as people advise on other identity characteristics. Yeah. So you might be the person. [Laughs] Hamja Ahsan  35:19   [Laughs] Yeah. Oriana Fox  35:21   … the go-to person, making things better for shy people worldwide. [Laughs] Anyway, yeah. So that seems like a good positive note to end on.  Hamja Ahsan [Laughs] Oriana Fox Not the show just perpetuates the status quo story of Oprah Winfrey’s original show, thank you very much, goodbye. [Laughs] Hamja Ahsan  35:47   [Laughs] You know there were people who like I wanted to participate in the Shy Radicals film. There’s one composition method for making the film was like a, it's

called “the introvert crisis helpline”, and people could just call in and talk about their social issues, or crises, or times where they just didn't fit in or whatever. But then quite a few people just didn't want to hear their own voice in the film. Oriana Fox  36:13   Right? Yeah. I know, I hate the sound of my voice. That's why I didn't want to make a podcast, I guess. All it is, is the sound of my horribly nasal voice. And I’ll have to listen to it. It’s bad enough watching myself. Hamja Ahsan  36:27   I didn’t know you felt that negatively about it? Oriana Fox  36:29   Well, that's why it takes me so long to edit the shows because I have to watch myself. Like, I need a buffer. I just cannot face the material. Like, I need some amount of time to pass to be able to distance myself from that performance and not be picking myself apart. Or like when there was one incident where I got some very negative, very constructive feedback from one of the guests immediately after the show, like unsolicited feedback. And I just like I couldn't watch it for years.  Hamja Ahsan Oh no. I get that. Oriana Fox And then when I finally watched it, I was like, what was I so worried about? Like, this really wasn't that bad. Hamja Ahsan  37:06   It’s weird, I consider my bit on The O Show to be like, the best interview I've ever done in my life. And I even tell people, if I die tomorrow, I'd like to be remembered by that, in all sincerity.  Oriana Fox Well, that’s good.  Hamja Ahsan And that was the only moment where like, every joke, and every punch line and every bit of timing was as you said in the text, I hit every right note. But that very rarely happens. Like I've done over 70 talks in like, I think eight different countries. But like, there's times when the same, like just falls flat. And there's times where, like yeah, and sometimes… At one event I did in Brixton, on the Monday and I said these jokes, they created a huge sense of like, laughter in the room. And then I did the same jokes in Cafe Otto in Dalston, in Hackney, an avant garde… Oriana Fox I know that place.  Hamja Ahsan Yeah. And there was total silence for that entire gig. So that isn't the same city and I'm just like reading the exact same piece of writing, but total silence.  Oriana  The north-south divide? [Laughs] Hamja Ahsan Yeah. [Laughs] Oriana Fox  38:19   How funny cuz you’d think there would be such an overlap in kind of? Hamja Ahsan  38:22   Yeah, I don't know what it is. But then I felt really bad when everyone went silent, actually. But then I got a few messages from some people who were present and they really liked it and found it very interesting. So the silence didn’t immediately mean… Oriana Fox  38:35   Yeah, it doesn't always indicate how… Hamja Ahsan  38:37   I mean regarding, I consider things successful when, if everyone laughs like, I actually want to be a stand-up comedian. Oriana Fox  38:47   Me too actually. [ding sound] Oriana Fox Well, that concludes my discussion with Hamja Ahsan, which I hope you enjoyed as much as I did. It's given me a lot to think about. In the end, I'm left with the same puzzle that I started with. defying norms takes nerve or courage that I have perhaps mistakenly equated with confidence or non-shyness. But to accept yourself as shy, to take pride in it, defies the extrovert supremacy class’s imperative to be confident. How do we square these two things? Is it as simple as saying it takes confidence to allow oneself to be shy? What kind of confidence is that, I guess is the kind that Hamja has. I invited him as a guest on Multiple Os because I wanted to better understand the nature of his shyness. Why it was that instead of seeking to overcome it, he champions it. The story about not wanting to get a haircut helped me to understand. He did not feel that he belonged as a young Muslim, Asian boy in an unwelcoming white British environment. But then he also did not feel entirely at ease within a British Muslim barbershop, either. Therefore seeking out a group in which he could belong, that’s where the desire to found Aspergistan emerged. His shyness made him aware of the need for a particular space for people like him. He didn't need to change, the world did. Whereas for me, I struggle with overwhelmingly negative self-downing thoughts that tell me I have nothing of value to add within the social milieu I operate within. I felt it necessary to act against those voices, rather than to find a place in which those thoughts belonged. These strike me as two different but related sets of problems, yet I'm drawn to Hamja’s solution because it's by default more self-assured and empowered than my own. It leads me to ask if perhaps there could be an environment in which my thoughts of self-doubt would be normalised because I'm aware that everyone else feels the same way. I guess maybe that's The O Show. The O Show is my Aspergistan of sorts. Hopefully, my discussion with Hamja Ahsan has helped you to recognise some of the positive aspects of shyness or better still brought you closer to the realisation that we're all just fumbling our way through social life, no matter how suave and articulate some of us may seem. Thanks again to Hamja for being my guest and to you my dear audience for taking the time to listen. If you've enjoyed what you've heard, please share the podcast with your friends and family. And while you're at it, pick up a copy of Hamja’s book Shy Radicals published by bookworks. Thanks again for listening. And until next time, be sure to unconditionally accept yourself and others, we’re all just fallible human beings!