התמלול המלא של How to support teachers the way we expect them to support students w/ Courtney Flessner

spent so much time talking about our love for reality television, and not only that, I would say we've had some voice note exchanges where we parallel reality television with what's going on in education. 00:04:37.867 --> 00:04:38.307 Yes 00:04:38.307 --> 00:04:41.716 I actually can't remember any of those talks, but I know we've d- do you remember any of them? 00:04:42.416 --> 00:04:43.336 That's really funny. 00:04:43.377 --> 00:04:45.177 No, but I know we have. 00:04:45.177 --> 00:04:51.146 I think that certain type of person can parallel, like, most anything to education. 00:04:51.846 --> 00:04:52.607 I think that's it. 00:04:53.307 --> 00:04:55.367 And that's, like, how I view everything. 00:04:55.416 --> 00:05:00.627 Like, I, I've recently been working on a pothole metaphor, and it makes a lot of sense to me. 00:05:00.826 --> 00:05:05.069 But then when I start thinking about, even to myself, I have a little giggle where I'm like,"A pothole? 00:05:05.079 --> 00:05:05.959 Seriously, Courtney?" 00:05:06.660 --> 00:05:08.949 Do you wanna share that or is it still being workshopped? 00:05:09.572 --> 00:05:11.982 well, it's still being workshopped, but I, I don't mind sharing it. 00:05:11.992 --> 00:05:20.199 I was thinking about how, why the teaching of math is such a struggle and why kids struggle and why teachers struggle in teaching it. 00:05:20.838 --> 00:05:27.149 And I started thinking about how, like, a pothole starts as just a crack. 00:05:27.249 --> 00:05:27.649 You know? 00:05:28.348 --> 00:05:35.069 Something in the cement that is, you know, that's, that's, that's not working, that, that's working against the cement. 00:05:35.069 --> 00:05:37.559 It's not doing what the cement's supposed, that it wants it to do. 00:05:37.579 --> 00:05:51.959 And as things seep into it, whether it's rain or s- snow or melted snow or salt from the snow or whatever it may be, as they seep into it, you know, it, the crack gets bigger and bigger and bigger until it's a pothole. 00:05:52.389 --> 00:06:00.819 And when you, w- you know, when the people call and they complain about the pothole, sometimes you'll go, and there's, like, a patch over the pothole. 00:06:01.519 --> 00:06:07.098 before long, the back because people are driving over it, and the patch didn't work. 00:06:07.468 --> 00:06:15.838 And so in order to fix the pothole, you have to completely rip up the, the high- the, the highway or the road or whatever it is, and you have to rebuild the road. 00:06:16.189 --> 00:06:19.668 so I've been thinking, I know, so I've been thinking a lot about that with, 00:06:20.199 --> 00:06:20.379 This is amazing 00:06:20.608 --> 00:06:25.848 I know, with teachers and students and how, like, we can't patch things for people. 00:06:25.858 --> 00:06:33.348 We can't say,"Just teach it this way" or,"Use this curriculum and it'll solve all your problems," or,"Teach the kids how to solve the problem this way. 00:06:33.348 --> 00:06:35.579 It will fix everything." Because it doesn't fix everything. 00:06:35.579 --> 00:06:51.978 It might fix something right in the moment, but it's not taking care of the things that have been seeping into it, whether it's the negative experiences they've had, their lack of understanding of mathematics, like, whatever it may be, what's been seeping into the crack to make the hole bigger is, it, you can't patch that up. 00:06:52.009 --> 00:06:53.689 You have to rebuild that completely. 00:06:53.749 --> 00:06:54.389 So 00:06:54.783 --> 00:06:56.853 I don't know what needs to be workshopped. 00:06:56.863 --> 00:07:02.314 This feels like a perfect metaphor, and it really, honestly, you've already sparked so many... 00:07:02.314 --> 00:07:12.244 I'm already throwing out all the questions I was gonna ask you because, like, th- it's so interesting that you're coming up with this metaphor because you're the director of Keep Indy- Indiana Learning, right? 00:07:12.440 --> 00:07:12.641 Mhm, 00:07:13.004 --> 00:07:23.764 A key part of your job is providing professional development widescale to educators so that we can, for real, I guess, fix the pothole, right? 00:07:23.764 --> 00:07:28.824 Like, so that we can for real get underneath why that pothole keeps, keeps appearing. 00:07:29.223 --> 00:07:34.853 And so my question is, and, and you know, it's funny because I've always, like, wondered. 00:07:34.894 --> 00:07:36.524 Like, I don't even know how you do your job. 00:07:36.524 --> 00:07:37.394 It sounds insane. 00:07:37.394 --> 00:07:45.384 I don't know how you plan, like, what needs to be happening, but I would love to actually get under, under the skin of this metaphor. 00:07:45.423 --> 00:07:47.653 Now I'm g- this is gonna be, like, all I talk about now. 00:07:47.884 --> 00:07:53.694 I'm like, but seriously, I'd love to get under the skin of it to, to figure out, let's take it back. 00:07:53.973 --> 00:07:55.463 What do you mean by patching? 00:07:55.574 --> 00:07:59.113 What are we patching, and what would it look like to rebuild? 00:07:59.673 --> 00:08:09.494 Like, what are you seeing that we're doing that is actually a patch, and w- let's get into what it could look like to rebuild that road. 00:08:10.194 --> 00:08:10.603 Sure. 00:08:10.613 --> 00:08:13.923 So I think that, I think that patches come at, like, so many levels. 00:08:13.923 --> 00:08:26.113 And so when I think about sort of my own teaching experience and how I sort of evolved in my teaching of math, you know, early in my career, I would have stood in front of kids. 00:08:26.144 --> 00:08:28.673 I would have said,"This is how you solve the problem. 00:08:28.673 --> 00:08:46.244 Copy me, do it my way, and then practice all the problems doing it the way that I just showed you." And then a- as they would be working on their own, and I'd be moving around the room, if they weren't understanding it, my patch was to restate the way I had already told them to do it. 00:08:46.943 --> 00:08:47.344 You know? 00:08:47.374 -->

00:09:05.203 Or in some instances, my patch might have been to take their pen or pencil out of their hand and write it for them to show them, like,"Look at how easy this is." But to rebuild, you have to teach them, what do I do when I encounter something that I don't understand? 00:09:05.663 --> 00:09:15.913 Because I can't just wait for my teacher to come over and take my pencil for me and write it down for me, or to remind me of what, you know, the instructions are that I'm supposed to follow. 00:09:16.124 --> 00:09:19.423 Like, what do I do when I encounter a struggle? 00:09:19.714 --> 00:09:25.563 And so t- we have to rebuild that idea of there's not somebody coming to help you. 00:09:25.864 --> 00:09:28.104 Somebody will be there to help you eventually, right? 00:09:28.104 --> 00:09:29.214 Like, definitely for sure. 00:09:29.214 --> 00:09:31.234 We're not, like, ignoring the kids that are struggling. 00:09:31.234 --> 00:09:32.178 But ja. 00:09:32.224 --> 00:09:34.153 That moment, what do I do? 00:09:34.163 --> 00:09:35.933 How do I tackle this problem? 00:09:35.933 --> 00:09:48.793 How do I, you know, how do I enter in in a way that makes sense for me so I can work to make sense of the problem, as opposed to, you know, the patch, which is would be, I'm gonna raise my hand and wait for my teacher to come and tell me what to do. 00:09:49.094 --> 00:09:51.043 So, like, that would be one example. 00:09:51.744 --> 00:09:59.484 This is a weird question to ask in a way, but I always think about professional development and how Like, you're talking about patches for the kids now, right? 00:10:00.033 --> 00:10:02.173 Which makes sense, but it's interesting what you said. 00:10:02.183 --> 00:10:09.910 You were like, rebuilding would actually be teaching them a more general skill," which would be what you do when struggle is abound. 00:10:09.951 --> 00:10:10.990 Like, what do you do then? 00:10:11.230 --> 00:10:18.370 Whereas the specific skill might be still a useful skill, but it's content-specific. 00:10:18.370 --> 00:10:22.091 So for example, let's say, okay, fine, you're not taking the pencil out of their hand. 00:10:22.091 --> 00:10:24.051 You're not like,"I do, you do, we do," whatever. 00:10:24.230 --> 00:10:30.331 You're actually, you know, showing them how to, like conceptually understand a fraction, let's say. 00:10:30.331 --> 00:10:38.280 Like, that's really, really cool, but that to me still feels very, very specific as opposed to a larger skill, which would be what do you do when you don't know what to do? 00:10:38.380 --> 00:10:40.191 Am I, like, onto something or not really? 00:10:40.537 --> 00:10:41.466 No, I think you are. 00:10:41.466 --> 00:10:49.677 I think that, so I think that's where, like, professional development meets teaching, is that we have to give teachers those experiences so that they know what to do. 00:10:49.697 --> 00:10:56.866 So if, you know, if, to, to use your fraction example, you know, I can be like,"Here's the

ch- here's the rectangle. 00:10:56.897 --> 00:11:02.447 It's split into three, you know, equal parts, and you're supposed to shade one-third. 00:11:02.447 --> 00:11:07.647 Like, just shade this one-third." Like you know, and kids might be sitting there going,"What are you talking about? 00:11:07.647 --> 00:11:09.736 What is this one-third that you are saying? 00:11:09.886 --> 00:11:15.437 Why are you calling it one-third?" Like, they, they haven't quite understood that piece of the puzzle. 00:11:15.437 --> 00:11:21.927 So our professional development, has to be centered around what do we do for the child that's stuck in that moment? 00:11:21.927 --> 00:11:23.466 Do we pull up a manipulative? 00:11:23.466 --> 00:11:34.437 Do we back it up to, re- you know, understanding, just dividing whole numbers and what that look, and now we're dividing it, a, a, a whole number, you know, a smaller number by a larger number. 00:11:34.716 --> 00:11:36.846 Is it about adding context to it? 00:11:36.876 --> 00:11:41.427 If I have a sandwich and I split it into three parts, like, one part of that is one-third. 00:11:41.427 --> 00:11:51.027 Like, we kind of go through, like, the five representations of mathematics to kind of meet them where they are and help them understand, what do I do in this moment? 00:11:51.287 --> 00:12:03.447 And so we have to give teachers those experiences so that they have them, so that they in turn know when they can use them, rather than saying,"Just shade this part. 00:12:03.447 --> 00:12:04.647 Just, one part is one-third." 00:12:05.287 --> 00:12:09.496 how often are you going in, you know, a district saying something like,"You know, our goals are numeracy. 00:12:09.537 --> 00:12:25.297 We have, you know, test scores," or, you know,"Our, our teachers need to understand more conceptually how to teach math." And you go in there, and what you see are that teacher dispositions toward math are actually not as positive as you hoped. 00:12:25.297 --> 00:12:32.017 Is that something that frequently happens, where you're like,"Oh my God, they're asking me to come in for content, but what's happening is these teachers, like, are scared of math"? 00:12:32.716 --> 00:12:33.236 Yeah, yeah. 00:12:33.236 --> 00:12:35.846 It happens often, like really often. 00:12:35.856 --> 00:12:39.647 Or the other thing that happens, and this is not, this is not, like, a shame. 00:12:39.657 --> 00:12:41.636 Like, I'm not This is not a shaming moment. 00:12:41.677 --> 00:12:50.687 sometimes what happens is they're very confident, and then as soon as we start, they realize,"I don't know anyth- I don't know what you're talking about. 00:12:50.726 --> 00:12:51.506 I don't know that. 00:12:51.517 --> 00:12:52.456 I don't know that math. 00:12:52.466 --> 00:13:04.826 That's not how I teach math." And so some- they'll either s- maintain their confidence and be like,"You don't know what you're talking about," or they'll be like,"Okay, I..." Then their confidence dips, and

they're like,"I don't know anything about this. 00:13:04.856 --> 00:13:12.206 Why do you How, how can you expect me to do this?" So you definitely see both, particularly at the elementary level. 00:13:12.907 --> 00:13:24.147 Well, you know, I think you're one of the few people I know that's out there kind of really, really working hard on a wide level around teacher disposition, because I know you are doing a lot of content-level work. 00:13:24.417 --> 00:13:33.996 But I know that that's something you and I really connect on, is that you believe that if, you know, a teacher is carrying anxiety or math trauma, that we, we can't just ignore it and keep pushing content. 00:13:33.996 --> 00:13:37.177 So I'm curious, it's really interesting what you say there. 00:13:37.177 --> 00:13:40.017 Like, what do you do when you encounter that type of situation? 00:13:40.017 --> 00:13:59.557 So you're in a room, you're doing PD, and you're noticing that there are educators who-- Because I would say if they feel really, really confident, and then you say something they don't understand, and they start getting defensive, that to me is, like, an interesting flag of almost doubling down because you don't want to not know because you've had a bad experience with not knowing. 00:13:59.557 --> 00:14:00.486 Like, do you know what I mean? 00:14:00.486 --> 00:14:12.159 Like, I, I-- To me, I'm like,"Oh, there's probably some math anxiety going on there." yeah, what do you do when you're kind of, like, called in to talk about, like, content or fractions or number sense, and you realize that there's actually, like, a disposition flag? 00:14:12.509 --> 00:14:26.519 So, you know, depending on, like, at what level I'm working with teachers, I- a lot of times I begin by just being like,"Here's who I am." and part of who I am is someone that, like I took three years of math in high school. 00:14:26.519 --> 00:14:28.809 I took the easiest math I could take in college. 00:14:28.809 --> 00:14:31.039 Like, I did not like math at all. 00:14:31.299 --> 00:14:40.727 I think I, I was even thinking about this this morning, probably in anticipation of our conversation, in that I don't know what I was like as an early math teacher. 00:14:41.087 --> 00:14:45.937 I, I know that I didn't Like, I was sitting at my overhead projector. 00:14:45.947 --> 00:14:49.138 So this, the- I'm, I'm starting my 30th year of, of education. 00:14:49.138 --> 00:15:00.067 So I was sitting at my overhead projector, like, kids were talking through problems, and I remember them being like, you know,"9 plus 6 is 15." And I was, like, checking on my fingers. 00:15:00.128 --> 00:15:01.067 Are they, were they right? 00:15:01.077 --> 00:15:02.687 Is 9 plus 6 actually 15? 00:15:02.707 --> 00:15:04.028 'Cause I didn't know for sure. 00:15:04.337 --> 00:15:06.238 And, like, that is where I started. 00:15:06.587 --> 00:15:11.408 And I, I- I re- I really, I really had no idea what I, what I was doing. 00:15:12.107 --> 00:15:25.038 and I realized early on, like, I have some work to do because I can't, I cannot teach my students the same way I was taught because i- it's not wor- it, it's not working for me. 00:15:25.038 --> 00:15:27.378 It, it, it didn't work for me throughout high school. 00:15:27.408 --> 00:15:30.077 It, you know, it's not working for me right now in this moment. 00:15:30.388 --> 00:15:33.138 So I tried to do, like, as much PD as I could. 00:15:33.457 --> 00:15:35.707 and then I, I moved to New York. 00:15:35.738 --> 00:15:37.107 I went to grad school. 00:15:37.128 --> 00:15:44.298 I, I ended up getting a job where I, I only had to teach social studies and, English, and that was, like, the best thing ever. 00:15:44.298 --> 00:15:46.577 I didn't have to deal with math for three years. 00:15:46.898 --> 00:16:03.727 and W- when I, when I ended up in Wisconsin where Ryan, my husband Ryan, was getting his PhD and so much math work started at Wisconsin, I would come home and, like, have questions or, like, wonderings or, like, reactions to this new math curriculum that I was using. 00:16:03.727 --> 00:16:11.778 He was like,"You should try da, da, da, da, da," or,"You should do this." My first reaction was, was exactly what teachers do. 00:16:12.128 --> 00:16:17.817 I, I looked at him, and I tell this story a lot, and I think he's comfortable with it, but I hope so'cause I tell it a lot. 00:16:18.177 --> 00:16:19.778 But I looked at him and I was like,"You know what? 00:16:19.778 --> 00:16:22.607 Nobody likes you." I was like,"Nobody likes you. 00:16:22.628 --> 00:16:30.668 Nobody likes the guy who comes in and tells the teachers what they should be doing." I'm like,"You're so disconnected from classrooms. 00:16:30.857 --> 00:16:37.398 You, you don't even know what we have to deal with on a daily basis." Those were the exact words coming out of my mouth. 00:16:37.878 --> 00:16:39.008 And he took it. 00:16:39.707 --> 00:16:43.857 But he would, but he was like,"Why don't you just try it?" Like,"Why don't you just try what I'm 00:16:44.101 --> 00:16:45.581 What did he want you to try? 00:16:45.662 --> 00:16:46.871 What did he want you to try though? 00:16:47.048 --> 00:16:49.798 It, it was things like,"Ask a question, Courtney. 00:16:49.798 --> 00:16:58.238 Like, rather than tell the kids how to solve the problems, why don't you ask them what they're thinking about when you give them the problem before you tell them how to solve it?" 00:16:58.937 --> 00:17:02.388 Pause also because I think we now need to know, sorry, but he's been roped in. 00:17:02.388 --> 00:17:03.028 Ryan won't mind. 00:17:03.028 --> 00:17:03.388 It's fine. 00:17:03.518 --> 00:17:05.228 What was he doing his PhD in? 00:17:05.258 --> 00:17:06.407 Education stuff? 00:17:06.875 --> 00:17:07.465 Y- yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:17:07.496 --> 00:17:07.885 His, 00:17:08.268 --> 00:17:08.708 Okay 00:17:08.855 --> 00:17:11.135 was in curriculum instruction from the University of 00:17:11.190 -->

00:17:12.329 Oh. 00:17:13.029 --> 00:17:14.980 Okay, so he's doing his PhD in that. 00:17:15.380 --> 00:17:19.349 I see, and he's telling you this stuff, and you're like,"I don't have time to ask a question. 00:17:19.359 --> 00:17:20.579 Like, we need to get through curriculum. 00:17:20.579 --> 00:17:23.170 We just need to tell them what the fuck's going on." Okay, love it. 00:17:23.779 --> 00:17:24.099 Yep 00:17:24.662 --> 00:17:30.662 And, I, but I would go back to school, and I would, like, it. 00:17:30.821 --> 00:17:32.291 You know, I would try to ask the question. 00:17:32.291 --> 00:17:34.291 Like, I wonder what they are thinking about, 00:17:34.451 --> 00:17:34.872 Right 00:17:35.192 --> 00:17:37.152 And you know what, Vanessa? 00:17:37.162 --> 00:17:40.281 They were not thinking about anything that I was telling them about. 00:17:40.352 --> 00:17:41.721 They were not thinking about that. 00:17:41.971 --> 00:17:42.912 And that, those were 00:17:43.125 --> 00:17:44.465 What were they thinking about? 00:17:44.622 --> 00:17:45.731 I, I don't even know. 00:17:45.761 --> 00:17:54.932 So let's say it was, like, you know, mul- multiplying a two-digit number by a two-digit number, and I was teaching them, like, the traditional US algorithm, you know? 00:17:54.961 --> 00:18:00.761 And I would be like,"First you do this, then you do this, then you do this." Kids would be like,"Well, I was thinking..." Let's say it's 25 times 42. 00:18:00.961 --> 00:18:08.061 "Well, I, I was thinking about 25 groups of 40 and 25 groups of two." And I would be like,"What? 00:18:08.102 --> 00:18:10.412 Like, why are you doing that?" You know? 00:18:10.412 --> 00:18:17.922 Or they'd be like,"I did 100 times 42, and then I divided that in half, and then I divided that in half." And I would be like,"What? 00:18:18.041 --> 00:18:19.571 Like, why are you doing it that way?" 00:18:20.132 --> 00:18:20.882 Were you annoyed? 00:18:21.011 --> 00:18:21.241 was... 00:18:21.942 --> 00:18:22.741 I wasn't annoyed. 00:18:22.741 --> 00:18:23.951 I was fascinated. 00:18:23.961 --> 00:18:24.281 I was 00:18:24.301 --> 00:18:24.751 Right 00:18:25.451 --> 00:18:29.231 fascinated because I didn't know you could do that with numbers, right? 00:18:29.231 --> 00:18:44.711 So the first time I ever gave a, like, a fact interview for a basic, you know, fact fluency, and a kid was like, for nine plus six, he was like,"I changed the nine to a 10, and then I added six, and I took away one." I was like,"I'm sorry, you did what? 00:18:45.061 --> 00:18:46.711 Like, you're just changing numbers?" Like, 00:18:47.248 --> 00:18:48.998 You sound so annoyed. 00:18:49.251 --> 00:18:51.211 you can't change numbers in math. 00:18:51.211 --> 00:18:51.862 But you know what? 00:18:51.862 --> 00:18:55.872 You totally can change numbers in math, as long as you make up for it later on. 00:18:56.221 --> 00:18:58.652 And I didn't know you could do those things. 00:18:58.761 --> 00:18:59.082 And so 00:18:59.251 --> 00:18:59.551 Mhm. 00:19:00.011 --> 00:19:06.882 asking the questions, I started thinking, f- my reaction was, what else do I not know? 00:19:06.942 --> 00:19:14.231 Like, like, what, what else do I need to learn so that I can reach the kids and g- and give the kids what the kids need? 00:19:14.932 --> 00:19:23.698 But this, that by the way, just a flag, that is, that reaction is the sign of a true leader. 00:19:24.048 --> 00:19:28.728 Because a true leader doesn't shut something down because they don't know it and they're not doing it that way. 00:19:28.938 --> 00:19:35.798 The, the re- a- that is a very fair reaction of an expert to say,"Oh my God, what else do I not know?" Because as an expert, I want to learn more. 00:19:35.928 --> 00:19:36.627 Okay, keep going. 00:19:36.627 --> 00:19:37.407 Sorry, I just like... 00:19:37.508 --> 00:19:37.807 and but, 00:19:37.877 --> 00:19:38.498 Good work. 00:19:38.637 --> 00:19:39.198 Good work. 00:19:39.218 --> 00:19:44.178 you said, thank you, but when you said that's a good, I didn't mean to be like, yes, I am a very good leader, but I didn't mean to 00:19:44.258 --> 00:19:44.627 You are 00:19:44.708 --> 00:19:44.837 way. 00:19:44.867 --> 00:19:49.647 I meant to say, no, but I meant to say yes because I think that's a real obstacle. 00:19:49.817 --> 00:19:49.958 I 00:19:50.049 --> 00:19:50.460 Yes 00:19:50.728 --> 00:20:00.708 of teachers, they feel so much pressure and so much stress behind, like, the kids need a certain grade, they need a certain score on the standardized test, they need a certain thing, they need to show growth, they need all these things. 00:20:00.968 --> 00:20:05.298 They get so wrapped up in that, that they just want to give them the steps. 00:20:05.298 --> 00:20:09.998 They just want to pouch everything up for them so that they get those scores. 00:20:10.327 --> 00:20:13.817 And in reality, we're not helping them. 00:20:13.978 --> 00:20:18.778 Like, we're not giving them the tools they need so they can be successful in math throughout their entire careers. 00:20:19.137 --> 00:20:21.877 And so it's really hard. 00:20:21.978 --> 00:20:27.127 I- I've thought about this a lot over time and, like, I, like I, I, there are certain rules that I follow. 00:20:27.127 --> 00:20:28.337 I'm very good at following them. 00:20:28.337 --> 00:20:29.347 I think they're very important. 00:20:29.357 --> 00:20:32.498 There are other things that I'm like, I, I don't like that rule. 00:20:32.528 --> 00:20:34.548 I'm going to do it my way. 00:20:35.008 --> 00:20:43.548 and so it was very easy for me to be like, I don't know what I'm doing in my math classroom, and that's okay. 00:20:43.837 --> 00:20:49.167 Because in order for the kids to be able to have success, I'm going to have to figure some stuff out. 00:20:49.577 --> 00:20:52.637 And I was very comfortable saying that. 00:20:53.057 --> 00:21:06.357 even when our principal would pull us into the g- library and tell us our scores were going down and

they need to go back up and do X, Y, and Z, I would be like,"Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay." And I'd go back to my classroom and I would teach my kids the way I knew they needed to be taught. 00:21:06.597 --> 00:21:08.718 And eventually, you know, it worked for their scores. 00:21:08.728 --> 00:21:11.917 But I, the, those were things that didn't... 00:21:11.948 --> 00:21:13.498 I was like,"I'm not teaching scores. 00:21:13.528 --> 00:21:15.117 I'm teaching the kids." You know? 00:21:15.147 --> 00:21:16.748 Like, that, that's what I'm doing. 00:21:16.748 --> 00:21:25.028 And that, I felt very comfortable doing that, and I understand that a lot of teachers are not in that, in that space, and I understand why. 00:21:25.077 --> 00:21:26.557 Like, I deeply understand why. 00:21:27.282 --> 00:21:31.948 I would love to hear you talk to the teacher listening who's like,"Yeah, I wish I could be like Courtney too. 00:21:32.157 --> 00:21:33.048 I wish I could not care. 00:21:33.048 --> 00:21:35.907 I wish I was comfortable, but like I'm scared I'm gonna get fired. 00:21:35.907 --> 00:21:39.587 I'm scared I'm gonna get in trouble." Like, I don't know, like, like to, what... 00:21:39.597 --> 00:21:40.837 Give them a piece of advice. 00:21:40.867 --> 00:21:42.548 Give me, them some Courtney wisdom. 00:21:42.617 --> 00:21:43.698 Like how do they do it? 00:21:43.708 --> 00:21:44.988 How do they do, yeah 00:21:45.688 --> 00:21:46.708 that's a great question. 00:21:46.708 --> 00:21:52.018 I think, so at the end of any PD I do, I'm always thinking about, like, so what's, like, your one thing? 00:21:52.028 --> 00:21:55.347 Like, what's the one thing that you can take back and do tomorrow? 00:21:55.718 --> 00:22:03.367 And a really important part of professional development that I do is I want it to be, like, as accessible as possible. 00:22:03.377 --> 00:22:11.327 So I think about, like, we want maths to be accessible for students, and so any learning that I want teachers to do, I want it to be accessible to them. 00:22:11.327 --> 00:22:14.617 I want them to feel like,"I belong here. 00:22:14.637 --> 00:22:17.557 It's okay that I don't know all the things. 00:22:17.788 --> 00:22:30.028 It's okay that I learned a whole bunch of stuff today that I never knew before." And really think hard about what's the one thing that feels comfortable to take back to the classroom and try. 00:22:30.728 --> 00:22:30.958 know? 00:22:30.968 --> 00:22:34.877 What, what isn't going to send me completely over the edge? 00:22:34.907 --> 00:22:44.057 And sometimes, you know, at the end of a PD, teachers will be like,"I'm gonna go back and I'm gonna do all the things." And, and so my heart is like, yes! Like, you're gonna do all the things. 00:22:44.057 --> 00:22:44.748 You just learned all. 00:22:44.758 --> 00:22:45.438 That's awesome. 00:22:45.798 --> 00:22:52.938 But my head knows that you start with all the things, you'll end up doing none of the things because it'll become very overwhelming. 00:22:53.317 --> 00:22:55.788 So choose one thing, you know? 00:22:55.788 --> 00:22:59.458 Or write down three of those things and choose one to start with. 00:22:59.458 --> 00:23:08.228 And then when you're feeling really comfortable with that one thing, whether it's two weeks or six weeks or an entire quarter, whatever it is of the year, then add in the new thing. 00:23:08.488 --> 00:23:15.488 Because that's the You know, starting slow like that is how things become a habit for you and become just what you do, you know? 00:23:15.488 --> 00:23:18.847 So my one thing was asking questions. 00:23:19.518 --> 00:23:21.347 I th- I, you know, like, I think. 00:23:21.357 --> 00:23:39.377 Like, it And I had, I had an assistant in my room for many years who said,"Courtney, it's amazing because you will literally, when you find yourself talking too much or telling them too many things," she goes,"you take a physical step backwards and, like, a deep breath, and then you pose a question." And so she had 00:23:39.582 --> 00:23:39.821 I love 00:23:39.958 --> 00:23:40.117 her 00:23:40.122 --> 00:23:40.281 this 00:23:40.827 --> 00:23:46.678 Yeah, so she had just gotten her teaching license, and so she was really, like, you know, just observing things like that. 00:23:46.678 --> 00:23:50.268 And I'm like,"That's really interesting." And, and I still do it. 00:23:50.637 --> 00:24:01.288 Like I s- I still find myself r-'cause I wanna think really hard before I respond to something because I- I'm trying to think of all of the, you know, all of the directions that it could go. 00:24:01.288 --> 00:24:19.337 And so, taking that step back and, and pausing to ask the question, like how do I, how do I rephrase this so that this person's learning something as opposed, you know, that, that they thought through in their head really thoughtfully as opposed to me saying,"Here's how you should be thinking about this," 00:24:19.688 --> 00:24:25.417 Okay, so we are going to, I love this, take a step, like physically, I love the idea of embodying the practice. 00:24:25.688 --> 00:24:29.698 Take a physical step back when you feel like you're pushing too much and you wanna step back and ask. 00:24:29.928 --> 00:24:31.617 And can you give us some question stems? 00:24:31.617 --> 00:24:32.807 Like, what do you ask? 00:24:32.857 --> 00:24:34.407 Like, what's a good thing to ask? 00:24:35.107 --> 00:24:36.258 To ask students? 00:24:36.519 --> 00:24:36.910 Ja 00:24:37.609 --> 00:24:43.519 well, I guess I- a, a lot of times I'll say something like,"Tell me more about this. 00:24:43.569 --> 00:24:49.380 Tell me more I also, I feel like I learned a lot about question asking, like, in my, in my graduate school work. 00:24:49.380 --> 00:24:52.079 Like, don't ask questions that can end in yes or no or have 00:24:52.413 --> 00:24:53.104 Yes 00:24:53.480 --> 00:24:57.059 And so I carry that into work with teachers and students as well. 00:24:57.380 --> 00:25:03.829 And so, but

honestly, Vanessa, it started with, like, once I h- was giving problems to kids and being like,"Okay, you solve this. 00:25:03.829 --> 00:25:12.559 Let me see how you're thinking about this before I make decisions about what I'm gonna do," sometimes I would look at their paper and I would be like,"I have no idea what's happening on this paper right now. 00:25:12.559 --> 00:25:32.642 I've, I've no idea what this child is doing." And so just literally looking at them and be like, tell me about your Like, what are you, what did you do?" And then as they start talking, I might, you know Like, I always have, like, a pen or pencil in my hand, and so I might be, I might point to somebody and be like,"Okay, so why did you put this four here?" Or like,"Why did you add these? 00:25:32.652 --> 00:25:33.791 Like, I'm seeing you added this. 00:25:33.801 --> 00:25:42.352 Like, why are you adding this?" And so I let them tell their story of their mathematical thinking, and then I ask questions for clarity, you know? 00:25:42.372 --> 00:25:44.172 And, and I start like that. 00:25:44.182 --> 00:26:06.971 I, I, m- initially I would, I think a lot of times I would be like, Tell me why you did that," or,"How did you solve that problem?" Or,"What were you thinking about?" And one of my favorite moments ever in my classroom a student, it was, like, six weeks into the year, a student from, like, across the room, her name was Dominique, and she goes and the kid, like, w- started talking about how he was thinking about the problem. 00:26:06.971 --> 00:26:08.612 And she goes,"Will you tell her why? 00:26:08.842 --> 00:26:10.372 Will you tell her why you did that? 00:26:10.372 --> 00:26:12.271 I'm tired of her asking us why." 00:26:13.790 --> 00:26:33.760 Well, I also think there, there's, you're saying some really cool things because what I'm hearing you say is, like, this started as, like, eye roll Ryan being like,"Do this," and you're like,"Fine, I guess I'll ask some questions." But it kind of turned into you almost, like, letting your curiosity guide your practice, where you're like, this isn't just li- I'm not just asking a question for the sake of it. 00:26:34.040 --> 00:26:48.941 I genuinely want to know why you did something, and because I'm no longer scared of making it clear that I have no fucking clue what's going on right now, like, because I'm no longer in fear around that and I'm ready to be vulnerable and be like,"I don't get it," now the questions pour out and they're genuine. 00:26:48.951 --> 00:26:59.580 And I think when they're genuine you're gonna get an answer, as opposed to, we all know this horror moment on a test that says,"Show me your thinking" or"Explain your" or show-- no, no, sorry. 00:26:59.681 --> 00:27:02.010 That, that's, that's too, like, of this age. 00:27:02.221 --> 00:27:05.840 I remember the, like,"Show your work," and you're like, what the fuck? 00:27:05.851 --> 00:27:06.730 Like, do you know what I mean? 00:27:06.730 --> 00:27:14.540 Like, number one, this is for marks, so now I don't even know what you want me to show and I, I know it's something that has to be graded, versus a teacher being like,"Hold on a second. 00:27:14.540 --> 00:27:15.070 Wait a second. 00:27:15.270 --> 00:27:16.651 I don't understand what you did here. 00:27:16.651 --> 00:27:18.121 Like, h- where did this four come from? 00:27:18.121 --> 00:27:20.171 This is so cool." It's like, 00:27:20.227 --> 00:27:21.017 Tell me more about that. 00:27:21.671 --> 00:27:27.911 Yeah, tell me more about that, and not just, like, you're saying that because you have to or because a grade is at stake. 00:27:27.921 --> 00:27:33.171 You, the adult in the room, are genuinely like,"I don't know how you did that." This actually reminds me. 00:27:33.201 --> 00:27:35.671 I'm wor- so my friend has a four-year-old. 00:27:35.780 --> 00:27:37.701 and we've been, like, doing math together. 00:27:37.701 --> 00:27:39.441 She keeps demanding math, okay? 00:27:39.441 --> 00:27:40.701 And I'm always like, I don't understand. 00:27:40.701 --> 00:27:44.000 Like, she'll-- she just wants me to give her numbers to, like, add and subtract, right? 00:27:44.270 --> 00:27:50.661 So I'll be like,"Five plus two," and she'll be like, she'll sit there and, like, her face will scrunch up and, like, she'll-- like, she's doing something. 00:27:50.830 --> 00:27:52.510 She's doing something, Courtney. 00:27:52.701 --> 00:28:05.750 Her face scrunches up, and I see maybe her mouth's moving or whatever, and all of a sudden she'll be like,"Seven." And I'll be like,"Oh my God," like,"what did you do?" And she'll be like,"I don't know." And I'm like,"How did you get that?" And she'll be like,"What do you mean?" Right? 00:28:06.030 --> 00:28:10.951 And I'm like, it's funny because I'm like, she's obviously doing something. 00:28:11.121 --> 00:28:12.681 She's, she's really little, right? 00:28:12.681 --> 00:28:15.260 So she can't necessarily access her thinking because who knows? 00:28:15.260 --> 00:28:22.701 Sometimes we just do this stuff, not because she's small, but because, like, we, sometimes we instantly just do this stuff and we're not aware of what our thought process was behind it. 00:28:23.050 --> 00:28:28.141 But it makes me think too, I could be doing a lot better in terms of asking questions, right? 00:28:28.141 --> 00:28:29.320 Sometimes,"Show me your work. 00:28:29.330 --> 00:28:35.030 What were you thinking?" is too big a question as opposed to what you said, which is, like, where did that four come from? 00:28:35.340 --> 00:28:35.580 Right? 00:28:35.580 --> 00:28:39.760 So I think this is actually-- oh my God, you should do, like, a whole session on this. 00:28:39.840 --> 00:28:46.401 I feel like we are constantly telling teachers to ask questions, and, like, we're either making it too deep, and it's, like, not that deep. 00:28:46.401 --> 00:28:48.760 It's like, just ask a question because you're curious, ask a question.

00:28:48.770 --> 00:28:56.570 Or it's like, maybe you're not curious, but you need to know some questions to ask to get some, to elicit a response from kids to get them to actually think about their thinking. 00:28:56.790 --> 00:28:57.340 So, like, 00:28:57.608 --> 00:28:57.868 Yeah 00:28:57.931 --> 00:29:00.201 I think this is really, really cool and really valuable. 00:29:00.201 --> 00:29:02.701 And so, like, I want, guys, if you're listening, try it. 00:29:02.711 --> 00:29:03.230 Try this. 00:29:03.240 --> 00:29:04.381 Try this this week and text us. 00:29:04.401 --> 00:29:05.141 Text the podcast. 00:29:05.171 --> 00:29:06.941 Tell us what question you asked and what happened 00:29:07.445 --> 00:29:11.215 And I think as, you know, you asked, like, what are some sentence stems, and that's such a good question. 00:29:11.215 --> 00:29:15.635 And, like, you see, like, you know, anchor charts and, like, or posters or whatever of sentence stems. 00:29:15.635 --> 00:29:18.665 And, like, sentence stems are a great place to get started. 00:29:18.986 --> 00:29:22.695 What I want teachers and students to know is you're not limited to that. 00:29:22.965 --> 00:29:43.476 Like, you're not limited to those sentences Like, really let's, let's, let's constantly be adding to those sentence starters because we begin to have more conversation and engage in talking about the math and learning from each other, we start finding out, like, we're starting our questions, we're starting our conversations in different ways. 00:29:43.826 --> 00:29:48.256 So the, the sentence stems are a great starter, but, like, let's always add to that list. 00:29:48.256 --> 00:29:53.806 Let's, let's make that list longer and better and bigger and more, wi- with many entry points for everyone. 00:29:54.506 --> 00:29:55.516 Oh my God, I love that. 00:29:55.875 --> 00:30:05.538 Okay, we're gonna shift gears a little bit here, Did you see the article from Chalkbeat that came out about how teacher math anxiety affects student performance? 00:30:06.238 --> 00:30:06.488 Like 00:30:06.488 --> 00:30:11.758 literally, basically, like, the crux of the article was, like, when teachers lack math confidence, students fall behind. 00:30:11.758 --> 00:30:19.458 I would like for you, because you work so much with educators all the time on a large scale, I would like to actually talk a little bit about this. 00:30:19.458 --> 00:30:32.137 Because there is this nasty rumor out there that I feel like I'm always trying to dispel that is basically like, if you're a teacher with math anxiety, you should not teach the children math because it's like the flu and your anxiety's gonna be contagious. 00:30:32.167 --> 00:30:50.469 And I actually think that narrative makes teachers who already have their own math trauma so much more anxious about teaching math, and then those teachers are like,"I can't try anything new because I don't wanna fuck up the kids, so I'm just gonna stick to this way of teaching that we know is not as effective as it could be," but they don't wanna like muck around and try and make mistakes, and they don't want their anxiety to show. 00:30:50.608 --> 00:30:51.269 Okay, cool. 00:30:51.797 --> 00:30:57.287 This article came out basically saying, you know, if you're a teacher with low math confidence, you know, it can affect your students' performance. 00:30:57.406 --> 00:30:59.136 But I don't like a headline like that. 00:30:59.136 --> 00:31:06.957 Like, literally the headline says,"When teachers lack math confidence, their students fall behind." Eh, hate it, don't like it, don't like that. 00:31:07.196 --> 00:31:09.727 There are specific reasons why your students might fall behind. 00:31:09.826 --> 00:31:13.896 It is not like,"Oh, you're nervous about math," like, your students are screwed, right? 00:31:13.926 --> 00:31:14.817 Can you help us here? 00:31:15.517 --> 00:31:18.287 Okay, so the first thing that I'm gonna say is I agree with you. 00:31:18.346 --> 00:31:21.747 Titles like that do not work for me at all. 00:31:21.997 --> 00:31:36.557 And when titles like that get put out into the world, and it's so easy to put things out into the world now with social media and whatever, I feel like it starts to give an excuse to teachers as being like,"Well, I have math anxiety. 00:31:36.586 --> 00:31:40.356 I, I don't like math, so my kids are going to score poorly. 00:31:41.164 --> 00:31:48.595 I feel like we are giving teachers and educators and, like, sort of the system, The Man, an excuse. 00:31:48.684 --> 00:31:49.865 Like, math ed's broken. 00:31:49.875 --> 00:31:50.684 We can't do it. 00:31:51.035 --> 00:31:52.234 I have math anxiety. 00:31:52.275 --> 00:31:53.484 I can't do it, right? 00:31:53.494 --> 00:31:55.194 Just from the title, okay? 00:31:55.434 --> 00:31:57.724 Now, I'm not saying that every teacher is like that. 00:31:57.765 --> 00:32:08.047 I am saying that I think as humans, it's really easy to read a title and draw conclusions and make assumptions and make them work for us in ways that we want them to work for us. 00:32:08.297 --> 00:32:11.406 I know I am guilty of that in a, in a, in 100 different ways. 00:32:12.106 --> 00:32:34.185 so I agree with you about the title I read the article that it cited, and I do think that based on my own experience and, and just w- you know, what I hear is fact that we find this a truth through our algorithms and the data is not surprising to me at all. 00:32:34.665 --> 00:32:43.546 I recently, one, one of my colleagues was doing a, a math audit in a school district and, and heard a teacher say,"I don't know why we're doing this. 00:32:43.596 --> 00:32:44.915 The book is telling us to. 00:32:44.915 --> 00:32:51.976 Let's just do it and, and just get it we-- And here's the thing, like I understand why the teacher said that. 00:32:52.006 --> 00:32:54.135 I understand why the teacher is feeling that way. 00:32:54.135 --> 00:33:00.405 The teacher has not had opportunity to learn in

the way that the teacher needs to have opportunity to learn. 00:33:00.846 --> 00:33:06.596 And to be, to be f- forced, for lack of a better term, to teach kids that way, right? 00:33:06.596 --> 00:33:20.395 Because they have to follow the curriculum with fidelity or whatever term they're using, it feels very uncomfortable, and it heightens whatever anxiety or, you know, whatever emotion they're having with math right in that moment. 00:33:20.806 --> 00:33:22.576 And, and it shuts them down. 00:33:22.965 --> 00:33:39.635 And so that's why t- taking the time to work with teachers on how to teach math and, and to do math together is such a crucial component of it because we have to give them experiences that we want our students to have. 00:33:39.915 --> 00:33:45.486 We have to allow them to learn and think in different ways than they've ever learned before. 00:33:45.992 --> 00:34:01.942 So, like we have to give those experiences because I, I do think that based on observations, based on what I've read, based on the work that I know certain people are doing out in the world to help, to help us all understand how to better work with teachers, that this is absolutely an issue. 00:34:02.353 --> 00:34:04.012 And it has to be resolved. 00:34:04.086 --> 00:34:04.626 hold on. 00:34:04.626 --> 00:34:05.856 What needs to be resolved? 00:34:06.557 --> 00:34:08.507 Not feeling comfortable with math. 00:34:08.567 --> 00:34:09.166 It's not 00:34:09.244 --> 00:34:09.605 Okay. 00:34:09.824 --> 00:34:10.094 Yeah 00:34:10.577 --> 00:34:13.996 comfortable with teaching math, it's just comfortable with math. 00:34:14.371 --> 00:34:23.422 Not saying like,"Oh my gosh, that problem totally stresses me out and I don't know what to do." What I say to people, if that problem is stressing you out and you don't know what to do, grab the calculator that's in your pocket. 00:34:23.672 --> 00:34:31.831 Because in 1983 when I was eight years old, there was no way we would have ever thought we had calculators in our pockets, right? 00:34:32.041 --> 00:34:40.262 So if you were feeling uncomfortable finding that quick answer, just grab that calculator that's in your pocket, find the quick answer, then let's talk about different ways we might approach that. 00:34:40.442 --> 00:34:45.702 Like, this doesn't have to be like a you have to do it this way or you're doing it wrong type of situation. 00:34:45.891 --> 00:34:48.581 We've gotta meet everybody where they are, like period. 00:34:48.931 --> 00:34:49.621 But there's two... 00:34:49.641 --> 00:34:50.431 Okay, so hold on. 00:34:50.431 --> 00:34:52.972 There's two things going on here, though, I think. 00:34:53.251 --> 00:35:04.581 You're-- Okay, so we're saying this call to action is we need to resolve the situation of, like, the general populace being like,"I'm not comfortable with math. 00:35:04.592 --> 00:35:06.762 It scares me." Is that what you're saying, or are you talking about teachers? 00:35:06.762 --> 00:35:07.862 I wanna be, like, so clear. 00:35:08.431 --> 00:35:08.942 Both. 00:35:09.501 --> 00:35:23.891 The one thing that I don't think I've said yet, or if I have, I haven't said it well enough, is it is also not okay for schools to be spaces where teachers don't feel okay about what they're doing. 00:35:24.565 --> 00:35:32.016 Schools have to be spaces, they have to be spaces where teachers are like,"I have things to learn. 00:35:32.166 --> 00:35:34.456 It's okay that I have things to learn. 00:35:34.826 --> 00:35:36.775 I am getting better. 00:35:36.826 --> 00:35:37.826 I am growing. 00:35:37.856 --> 00:35:39.315 I am reaching my students. 00:35:39.376 --> 00:35:42.565 I am doing the best I can because I'm applying what I'm learning. 00:35:42.835 --> 00:35:47.965 I have support in this process." Schools need to be those places. 00:35:48.025 --> 00:36:01.956 So as, as school and district leaders, we have to ask very hard questions of what are we doing to create spaces where teachers feel okay about teaching math ambitiously? 00:36:02.255 --> 00:36:12.195 Like, what are we doing to, to make it possible for them to take risks and do things that they've never done before when it's going to not go well? 00:36:12.286 --> 00:36:21.346 There are going to be times that it, that they fail in their classroom, and that has to be okay because it has to be okay for the students, too. 00:36:21.565 --> 00:36:23.496 Like, our teachers are just as important. 00:36:23.496 --> 00:36:27.746 If we're not giving them what they need, the students are not going to get what they need, period. 00:36:27.775 --> 00:36:31.195 And it's not up to teachers to go find out that information on their own. 00:36:31.436 --> 00:36:35.646 We have to give it to them in, in our schools and find the time and space to do that. 00:36:36.346 --> 00:36:36.356 Whoo. 00:36:37.025 --> 00:36:40.206 Oh my God, that was so good. 00:36:40.275 --> 00:36:41.925 Like, I am fired the fuck up. 00:36:41.965 --> 00:36:45.715 And also, so this is, like, now I'm really- I'm gonna land the plane. 00:36:45.726 --> 00:36:49.365 I wish that was a car metaphor for the pothole, but, like, whatever. 00:36:50.065 --> 00:37:26.695 Cause here's what I was getting at when I was like,"I don't like this article headline," because I think, and tell me if I'm wrong, the headline should not be, and I'm gonna read it again,"When teachers lack math confidence, their students fall behind." The headline should be,"When teachers lack math confidence and are not comfortable building their confidence or growing mathematically or doing something about it or expressing to their kids the reason they lack confidence is not because they, it, are innately incapable of math but because they've had bad math experiences or put in any effort to healing or model mistake." Like, do you know what I mean? 00:37:26.726 --> 00:37:31.786 It should be, it should, it's not teachers lacking confidence that leads to poor performance in students. 00:37:31.996 -->

00:37:45.222 It's teachers lacking confidence and then being resigned to that fact, and just being like,"Well, I lack confidence, and therefore, like, I'm just going to tell students I hate math and not try anything n-" Right? 00:37:45.231 --> 00:37:45.731 Am I right? 00:37:45.742 --> 00:37:46.242 It's like, 00:37:46.454 --> 00:37:46.824 Yeah. 00:37:47.012 --> 00:37:48.601 the lacking confidence part 00:37:48.824 --> 00:37:49.164 yeah. 00:37:49.293 --> 00:37:50.054 No, absolutely. 00:37:50.054 --> 00:37:52.083 I mean, it's, it's totally a disposition. 00:37:52.094 --> 00:38:03.884 And I wanna be very clear that I think, I think it's okay for them to have that disposition if they've never been given opportunities to work through that disposition about how they feel about math. 00:38:04.583 --> 00:38:09.923 If we are just handing them over a curricular resource and being like,"Use this, it'll solve all the problems. 00:38:10.414 --> 00:38:14.134 It'll help, it'll help you in all the ways," but we're not teaching them how to use it. 00:38:14.143 --> 00:38:15.204 We're not engaging. 00:38:15.204 --> 00:38:16.574 We're not doing math with them. 00:38:16.574 --> 00:38:19.103 We're not talking about the lessons that we're doing. 00:38:19.103 --> 00:38:19.293 And, 00:38:19.726 --> 00:38:28.606 and so, like, I just wanna kinda like, as we wrap here, be like, if you're listening to this and then you're like,"Oh my God, but I don't, you know, I- there's so many areas of math I'm not confidence- confident about. 00:38:28.606 --> 00:38:33.706 I don't want my, my students to, like, you know, suffer." No, that's not the vibe. 00:38:33.717 --> 00:38:40.597 The vibe is we all have experiences that lead to us having a lack of confidence in math, or math anxiety, or a math trauma. 00:38:40.757 --> 00:38:41.626 That is fine. 00:38:41.786 --> 00:38:42.856 That is why you're here. 00:38:42.856 --> 00:38:43.976 That's why you're listening to this. 00:38:44.126 --> 00:39:02.637 The fact that you're listening to this, the fact that you're trying new things and you're, like, using that, that, experience you had to help other students not have that experience, that is, that is what will turn you from a teacher who is passing on math anxiety to a teacher who is healing it. 00:39:02.786 --> 00:39:04.567 So keep fucking doing it, right? 00:39:04.577 --> 00:39:05.496 Like, keep up the work. 00:39:05.496 --> 00:39:06.746 We want you here. 00:39:07.056 --> 00:39:21.427 The best, like, I- I don't wanna say the best because there are so many amazing math teachers, but some of the best math teachers I know are teachers who are healing math trauma from their own negative math experiences and from their own lack of confidence, and through them working through it, they're helping their teachers work through it. 00:39:21.447 --> 00:39:25.947 So, like, you don't need to be, like, 100% confident with math to suddenly be a good teacher. 00:39:26.206 --> 00:39:27.666 It's the working through that confidence. 00:39:27.836 --> 00:39:35.146 It's acknowledging that you have a lack of confidence, and actually taking proactive steps to change that that makes you an amazing teacher, right, Courtney? 00:39:35.146 --> 00:39:35.726 Am I right? 00:39:36.121 --> 00:39:37.530 Ab- yeah, yeah, totally. 00:39:37.541 --> 00:39:41.780 And, and, and knowing that, like, all of that is okay, right? 00:39:41.780 --> 00:39:49.371 So, like, if you're in a space where you're, you're not, you know, your, your mandatory PD isn't about that. 00:39:49.650 --> 00:39:50.090 You know? 00:39:50.251 --> 00:39:55.101 You feel like you don't have time, you know, because you've got all these other initiatives. 00:39:55.181 --> 00:39:55.840 I get it. 00:39:55.971 --> 00:39:57.490 I get that, totally. 00:39:57.771 --> 00:40:08.170 My suggestion would be, you know what, take five minutes, seven minutes, 10 minutes, and grab your team of teachers and say,"Y'all, can we work on this problem together? 00:40:08.411 --> 00:40:19.561 Can we think about all of the different ways that the kids might tackle this problem, where they might struggle, and what we might do in those moments?" Like, 10, just 10 minutes, right? 00:40:19.731 --> 00:40:23.940 Gra- grab a- go to the whiteboard, work on the problem together, right? 00:40:23.951 --> 00:40:30.780 So, a- an- the other, another book, I'm, I'm actually gonna start a book study on this this year, is it's called Learning Together. 00:40:31.070 --> 00:40:35.690 It's, by Elham Kazemi and Jessica Calabrese, and, Lindsey Gibbons is on it. 00:40:35.721 --> 00:40:37.271 It's this one right here, Learning Together. 00:40:37.581 --> 00:40:46.260 And it's, it, and the, the subtitle's Organizing Schools for Teacher and Student Learning, and it's, it's about that idea of like, let's bring everybody together. 00:40:46.260 --> 00:40:54.670 Let's do the math together, and then through teaching moves we might need to make in order for that math to be successful in our classrooms. 00:40:54.960 --> 00:40:59.440 And in doing that, we're be- we're, we're becoming more comfortable with the math. 00:40:59.690 --> 00:41:10.831 We are, you know, alleviating our anxiousness around not understanding the math, and, and we're doing it together, thereby creating, like, a shared vision gonna look like in our classrooms. 00:41:10.851 --> 00:41:14.061 This is what math is gonna look like in our school because we're doing this together. 00:41:14.201 --> 00:41:23.460 So even if your school's not offering that for you, just grab someone and be like,"Will you, w- can we just do this problem together?" and it makes such a difference. 00:41:23.521 --> 00:41:24.260 It makes such a 00:41:24.516 --> 00:41:25.186 Do it. 00:41:25.547 --> 00:41:26.447 I love this. 00:41:26.456 --> 00:41:27.987 Honestly, this is your call to action. 00:41:27.987 --> 00:41:31.387 Start, if you don't ha- If the year has started, it's time for the group chat. 00:41:31.577 --> 00:41:33.967

Who is gonna be your crew of teachers you do that with? 00:41:33.976 --> 00:41:35.266 So put some thought to it. 00:41:35.507 --> 00:41:36.697 I actually love that. 00:41:36.987 --> 00:41:37.976 We have to wrap up. 00:41:38.297 --> 00:41:44.297 I, I love how we started this, actually, like, in a quite chill way, being like,"Look at our drinks," and now we're, like, yelling at the top of our fucking lungs. 00:41:44.432 --> 00:41:44.972 I know, I'm 00:41:45.036 --> 00:41:45.407 okay. 00:41:46.106 --> 00:41:46.856 No, I love it. 00:41:47.047 --> 00:41:48.148 Final two questions. 00:41:48.168 --> 00:41:49.789 Final two questions that I ask everyone. 00:41:49.789 --> 00:41:51.378 You have 30 seconds to answer each one. 00:41:51.878 --> 00:41:56.778 Number one, if there's one thing you could change about the way math is taught, what would it be? 00:41:56.778 --> 00:41:57.378 You can, you... 00:41:57.409 --> 00:41:59.878 A genie's like,"I'll grant you one wish." What is it? 00:42:00.579 --> 00:42:13.458 Vanessa, I know we've talked about this today, but I really think it's, like, understanding, like, it's okay that it's not always going to go perfectly all the time from both the teacher point of view and the student point of view. 00:42:13.889 --> 00:42:15.318 that's my number one thing. 00:42:15.318 --> 00:42:23.309 Like, we have to be willing to take risks and try things and do things differently, if what we're doing's not working for everyone. 00:42:23.318 --> 00:42:26.728 And so I think that would be my number one thing, today anyway. 00:42:26.748 --> 00:42:27.389 I love it. 00:42:27.849 --> 00:42:28.398 I love it. 00:42:28.418 --> 00:42:36.028 And finally, someone's like,"Yeah, I heard what you were saying about, like, how we've gotta, like, you know, get rid of it and it can't be acceptable to, like, not like math. 00:42:36.059 --> 00:42:38.018 I understand, but Courtney, like, you don't understand. 00:42:38.018 --> 00:42:40.588 Like, I'm not a math person." What would you say? 00:42:41.289 --> 00:42:46.378 I would say, I, I would say I understand why you feel that way. 00:42:46.389 --> 00:42:51.579 You need the opportunity to do some more math and think about math differently than you ever have before. 00:42:51.628 --> 00:42:53.639 You need to be given a chance to do that. 00:42:54.338 --> 00:42:56.929 Oh my God, this was so much fun. 00:42:57.108 --> 00:43:00.528 I feel like we need a final pothole statement to, like, end. 00:43:00.539 --> 00:43:01.518 Like, what should we say? 00:43:01.528 --> 00:43:02.798 Like, you know? 00:43:02.798 --> 00:43:03.159 Like 00:43:03.188 --> 00:43:04.559 I don't know, do you ha- do you have something? 00:43:05.259 --> 00:43:06.199 no, but you know what? 00:43:06.228 --> 00:43:12.739 A picture that I pulled up that I used in a presentation recently was a road with, like, many potholes. 00:43:12.829 --> 00:43:16.659 You know, like, you drive over them and you're like,"Ga, ga, ga, ga, ga, ga, ga, ga, ga," when you drive across it. 00:43:16.659 --> 00:43:32.744 And I just, I just think a lot about how, like, is that how teachers feel when they're in their classrooms, that they're driving over this long road full of many potholes and, you know, and this, and they have so much work that they have to do with their students. 00:43:32.744 --> 00:43:38.815 And I just, I just want everyone to know that, like, it's okay that you have that work to do. 00:43:39.114 --> 00:43:40.954 Take the time to do the work. 00:43:41.155 --> 00:43:53.614 Like, I promise your students are going to benefit from it, and it's going to come out in your favor over time, if you are one that is thinking hard about test scores and progress and all of that. 00:43:53.625 --> 00:43:56.945 Like, I, I firmly believe it because I lived it. 00:43:57.005 --> 00:43:58.215 Like, I lived it. 00:43:58.295 --> 00:44:04.364 And taking that time to rebuild is n- it's never going to work against you. 00:44:04.425 --> 00:44:06.695 It's never, ever going to work against you. 00:44:06.885 --> 00:44:15.324 But continuing to let the, the bad stuff seep into the potholes is, is gonna be hard for every single person in the classroom. 00:44:16.025 --> 00:44:18.445 Such amazing final words. 00:44:18.485 --> 00:44:20.434 Way to bring that metaphor home. 00:44:20.454 --> 00:44:23.105 And I think we should end by, like, cheering our Swig mugs. 00:44:23.255 --> 00:44:24.364 Like, sh- can we cheers? 00:44:24.675 --> 00:44:25.545 Okay, like, okay. 00:44:25.894 --> 00:44:26.594 Cheers. 00:44:27.045 --> 00:44:27.474 Cheers. 00:44:30.065 --> 00:44:30.864 I love her. 00:44:30.934 --> 00:44:41.554 I've been using this pothole analogy ever since our interview, both inside of education and, like, in my life, and it really makes me think about where in our schools, classrooms, and lives we are patching instead of fixing. 00:44:42.005 --> 00:44:47.914 I've really started to look at everything that way, and it's given me deep insight into why I feel, like, so frantic sometimes. 00:44:48.264 --> 00:44:51.675 When we're patching, it's frenetic, panicked, like, Whac-A-Mole energy. 00:44:51.914 --> 00:44:57.684 But when we're fixing, it takes longer, but it feels more like calming, jigsaw puzzle, like, healing energy. 00:44:58.025 --> 00:44:59.204 So how do we harness this? 00:44:59.445 --> 00:45:03.744 How do we find the patience to take the time needed to fix instead of patch? 00:45:04.114 --> 00:45:05.144 I would love to hear from you. 00:45:05.344 --> 00:45:11.724 Where in your school, classroom, or life do you feel like patching is happening instead of fixing, and how could you make that shift? 00:45:11.914 --> 00:45:12.485 Text us. 00:45:12.554 --> 00:45:13.085 Text me. 00:45:13.574 --> 00:45:23.695 All you have to do is hit the link in the show notes that says,"Text us." Math Therapy is hosted by me, Vanessa Vakharia, produced by David Kochberg, and the theme music is by our band, Goodnight Sunrise. 00:45:23.844 --> 00:45:27.864 As always, thank you guys so much for listening, sharing, and being a part of the community. 00:45:28.184 --> 00:45:30.545 If you want more Math Therapy, join our Facebook group. 00:45:30.565 --> 00:45:33.014 We have over 500 amazing members. 00:45:33.014 --> 00:45:36.525 Just hit the link in the show notes to join, and see you next week. 00:45:36.554 --> 00:45:37.574 It's gonna be amazing. 00:45:42.824 --> 00:45:50.280 So let me ask you this actually,'cause I'm confused,'cause when I went to order my first drink, when you order the vanilla cream, so here's what I found. 00:45:50.340 --> 00:45:51.740 it's like it's just a dash. 00:45:51.740 --> 00:45:53.130 It doesn't taste very creamy. 00:45:53.295 --> 00:45:53.445 Oh. 00:45:54.144 --> 00:45:54.655 Oh my God. 00:45:54.655 --> 00:45:55.324 Shit. 00:45:55.753 --> 00:45:57.092 Guys, fuck. 00:45:57.362 --> 00:45:58.643 Yeah, I spilled all over myself. 00:45:58.702 --> 00:45:59.472 Okay, it's fine. 00:45:59.753 --> 00:46:01.543 Let's Okay, that's interesting. 00:46:01.603 --> 00:46:02.563 That's interesting you say that. 00:46:02.563 --> 00:46:03.432 I'm soaking wet now. 00:46:03.672 --> 00:46:04.932 Okay, everything's fine. 00:46:05.003 --> 00:46:05.943 It's'cause I tr- okay. 00:46:06.643 --> 00:46:07.552 Let's begin again,