התמלול המלא של Michael Cerveris

Loose Cattle? 00:04:47.040 --> 00:04:48.959 That's the name of the Yeah, yeah, exactly. 00:04:49.120 --> 00:04:54.639 Yeah, I think I've I've been thinking I should bring everybody up here and we should just make our next record like in this stable. 00:04:54.959 --> 00:04:59.519 No, you can make a record from anywhere now, and you can bring all the equipment with you. 00:04:59.600 --> 00:05:01.279 It's really amazing how far that's come. 00:05:02.079 --> 00:05:10.879 All right, so I I just want to I want to go back a little bit and uh take our our audience on a little bit of a journey with of of your career. 00:05:12.000 --> 00:05:13.279 An amazing journey, for example. 00:05:13.519 --> 00:05:14.480 It uh-huh. 00:05:15.040 --> 00:05:16.160 Thank you for the pun. 00:05:16.800 --> 00:05:20.720 Um I uh yeah, you and I uh have that in common. 00:05:20.800 --> 00:05:25.920 You know, you your first big role on Broadway, that was your debut on Broadway? 00:05:26.160 --> 00:05:26.319 Yeah. 00:05:26.560 --> 00:05:30.639 In fact, it was the debut of every every person in that cast. 00:05:30.720 --> 00:05:32.319 It was their Broadway debut. 00:05:33.040 --> 00:05:39.439 That that show, first of all, you know, I I saw I want to talk about uh Tommy a little bit. 00:05:39.519 --> 00:05:41.120 Um The Who's Tommy. 00:05:41.199 --> 00:05:46.399 Um it was first a an album by a band called The Who. 00:05:47.199 --> 00:05:57.839 Then it became a movie that was produced with several artists, including uh Tina Turner and Eric Clapton and Elton John, and they were all in this film. 00:05:58.319 --> 00:06:01.199 And it became a sort of cult classic. 00:06:01.920 --> 00:06:07.120 And then the journey continued and it became a Broadway play. 00:06:07.680 --> 00:06:12.800 And it's slightly different in each incarnation. 00:06:12.879 --> 00:06:35.839 There are there are certain differences in the arrangement of the music, there are there are slight differences in the storyline, and uh I don't know which one is my favorite, probably the Broadway because uh there are just because I'm a singer and when it comes to singers, it's kind of like a it it's just a fantastic, fantastic uh show. 00:06:36.319 --> 00:06:39.519 And the the singing and the performing and the production is is wonderful. 00:06:39.839 --> 00:06:48.560 And it's sort of um for me the Broadway version of the Who's Tommy always brought together the best of uh everything. 00:06:48.959 --> 00:06:59.680 The the original uh soundtrack, the the film, and uh and what was the best about the Who, which w was the writing, the songwriting, Pete Townsend's writing. 00:07:00.319 --> 00:07:06.959 And uh how does it how did you get into uh first of all, how did you get into theater? 00:07:07.040 --> 00:07:09.199 How did you get into music? 00:07:09.759 --> 00:07:13.519 And did the Who's Tommy play a role growing up? 00:07:13.680 --> 00:07:17.680 Did you know the show before you auditioned for it? 00:07:18.879 --> 00:07:19.199

Sure. 00:07:19.360 --> 00:07:24.560 Well, I uh I grew up in a in a very artistic home. 00:07:24.720 --> 00:07:34.399 My father uh was a university music professor, and my mom was a modern dance uh instructor and modern dancer. 00:07:34.720 --> 00:07:46.480 Um they both gave up uh perform the idea of having performing careers when they decided to start a family, um, but they still became very uh active in the arts. 00:07:46.639 --> 00:07:59.600 So growing up, I was surrounded by music all the time and and got involved uh in community theater things early on because of my dad being involved, really, and my mom. 00:08:00.000 --> 00:08:05.920 And my dad would also sometimes put together small uh performance things through the university. 00:08:06.079 --> 00:08:12.639 And so often when the university needed a little kid to be in the in the show, I was often the little kid. 00:08:13.120 --> 00:08:15.199 So you have siblings? 00:08:15.519 --> 00:08:15.920 I do. 00:08:16.000 --> 00:08:21.040 I have a younger brother and a younger sister who also were always involved in all these productions, too. 00:08:21.199 --> 00:08:29.839 And my brother uh eventually became an actor as well and and works on stage and and Broadway and film and television. 00:08:30.319 --> 00:08:31.839 Uh Todd Cerberus. 00:08:32.240 --> 00:08:50.720 Um, and my sister danced, uh, became a ballerina and studied at North Carolina School of the Arts and then uh ended up at School of American Ballet and became one of the last three ballerinas that uh George Balanchine brought into the company while he was still alive. 00:08:51.200 --> 00:08:57.279 Um so you know, the whole it was a it was kind of a family business being involved in the arts. 00:08:57.519 --> 00:09:01.440 Um I also played music from a fairly young age. 00:09:01.600 --> 00:09:07.600 My dad wanted all of the kids to study an instrument for uh a year. 00:09:07.759 --> 00:09:10.320 Um, and we got to choose the instrument. 00:09:10.480 --> 00:09:17.200 And if after the end of that year we didn't want to keep uh studying it, then that was up to us. 00:09:17.360 --> 00:09:26.559 So I think we all started on piano, but it's it's a little difficult sometimes learning an instrument at home with your parents, you know, in the house all the time. 00:09:26.720 --> 00:09:37.120 So um I did that for a little bit and then started taking violin in fourth grade in school and enjoyed it and wished that I had kept it up more. 00:09:37.440 --> 00:09:43.519 But um, you know, in fourth grade, violin wasn't really the instrument to be playing at that time. 00:09:43.600 --> 00:10:00.159 And so I switched to guitar and finished out my my year, the second six months uh learning guitar, and then actually put it away for a few years after my time was up and I just got involved with other stuff. 00:10:00.399 --> 00:10:20.639 And then I guess when I was around probably 13, probably when I was turning into a teenager, I pulled it out from under the bed again and kind of retaught myself by ear and and have been playing ever since and had uh rock band when I was in junior high school and have played, you know, throughout the years ever since. 00:10:21.120 --> 00:10:22.960 Do you remember what what prompted that? 00:10:23.120 --> 00:10:24.000 That return to the guitar. 00:10:24.320 --> 00:10:25.200 Meaning bring it out. 00:10:26.480 --> 00:10:27.039 I don't. 00:10:27.200 --> 00:10:32.080 I imagine it was, you know, listening to records or or seeing. 00:10:32.240 --> 00:10:39.279 I mean, there wasn't MTV, you didn't see as much music on television as you do today, and you didn't have all the streaming options. 00:10:39.440 --> 00:10:47.679 Um, but you know, there were things like Midnight Special and uh uh in concert um that would be on late at night. 00:10:47.759 --> 00:10:51.919 So it may have been, I kind of imagine it was something like that. 00:10:52.159 --> 00:10:57.360 And the Who would have been one of the bands that I heard around that time. 00:10:57.840 --> 00:11:10.000 Um so also because I was growing up in West Virginia and there wasn't the access to so many kinds of music uh then that there are now. 00:11:10.159 --> 00:11:17.360 Um, and because I didn't have any older siblings, I kind of discovered a lot of music a little later. 00:11:17.679 --> 00:11:23.440 Um but uh but I do remember knowing about the Who from an early age. 00:11:23.600 --> 00:11:27.200 I remember going to the library and I used to, I love to draw also. 00:11:27.679 --> 00:11:42.799 And I remember taking out this book of rock photographs and taking it home and and I still have actually some of the drawings that I made of Pete and Roger um when I was, you know, must have been 12, 13, something like that. 00:11:42.960 --> 00:11:44.080 Um amazing. 00:11:44.320 --> 00:11:47.360 Yeah, so I So it was always it was there. 00:11:47.679 --> 00:11:48.799 It was always there. 00:11:49.120 --> 00:11:49.440 Yeah. 00:11:49.679 --> 00:11:53.039 And I wasn't I wasn't like the hugest Who fan. 00:11:53.120 --> 00:12:00.399 Like I didn't know everything about them and I didn't know all their music, but I, you know, I knew the hits at the time and and that stuff. 00:12:00.559 --> 00:12:17.039 And I'm glad I kind of glad I didn't know them better than I did um when I started rehearsal because I knew them well enough to have known Tommy and to um to know a lot of their music, but I didn't know their their whole story from the beginning days. 00:12:17.200 --> 00:12:22.320 And and it was daunting enough as it was to try to sort of step into those shoes. 00:12:22.480 --> 00:12:35.440 And Pete helped a lot with that, but um, but I think if I'd been even more rabbit a fan, I think I would have just been paralyzed with uh with fear and intimidation trying to try to take it on. 00:12:35.759 --> 00:12:40.720 I have to I know that you know for the video section of the of the podcast, I have to hold this up. 00:12:40.879 --> 00:12:55.919 Yeah, this

is the Who's Tommy logo, and uh this was the production that I was in that I moved in when I right after I moved to New York, um uh right out of college, and this was at New Jersey Performing Arts Center that Jeffrey Finn produced. 00:12:56.639 --> 00:13:00.559 And it was also a cast of all newbies, yeah. 00:13:00.960 --> 00:13:06.320 All newbies that were like just out of school, and everyone wanted to do this show. 00:13:06.559 --> 00:13:10.480 Yeah, and people want to hear this show still. 00:13:10.960 --> 00:13:14.639 What is it about that music that you think is so compelling? 00:13:15.519 --> 00:13:16.720 Well, it's funny. 00:13:16.960 --> 00:13:30.240 Pete told us this uh story that you know when they famously when they played Woodstock and they did listening to you, like that was when the rain clouds parted and the sun came out. 00:13:30.480 --> 00:13:48.639 And he said, from the time that they first started playing the music from Tommy live, there was something about when they got to listening to you, every time, if it was a seated venue, the audience started standing up like part way through the song. 00:13:48.879 --> 00:13:52.720 And um and that happened for us as well. 00:13:52.879 --> 00:14:03.200 Like every time there's something something kind of uh beyond music that's that's in that's in that that that music. 00:14:03.360 --> 00:14:21.759 Um you know Pete was a uh devotee of Mare Baba, um the spiritual Indian spiritual leader, and um, you know, and he was very uh uh attuned to sort of um higher consciousness kinds of things. 00:14:21.840 --> 00:14:39.759 And so I think I think there's something about there is something about the story, although, like you say, the story is definitely different or more complicated or harder to follow in some of the the earlier incarnations. 00:14:40.000 --> 00:14:45.600 You know, in the album, they don't have to tell as clear a narrative when you're just making a rock album. 00:14:45.679 --> 00:14:56.639 And they were, you know, they were in the early vanguard of people trying to make a rock opera and trying to create uh a rock album with a narrative and with a story. 00:14:56.879 --> 00:15:09.840 Um and Pete told another story about when they were recording the album, he did an interview with a writer from Rolling Stone, and the writer was saying, So what's the story of this, you know, rock opera? 00:15:09.919 --> 00:15:17.519 And so Pete kind of told him the story, even though he hadn't really sat down to write it particularly. 00:15:17.679 --> 00:15:20.879 Um, but he said, you know, this is this is what happens. 00:15:21.039 --> 00:15:38.240 And when they went back to sequence the album, you know, to decide which songs came after which, he had to go back to the Rolling Stone article, which had come out to see what he had said because he couldn't even remember what he told the guy the story was, um, which sounds about right, actually. 00:15:38.559 --> 00:15:52.559 Um, and then the film really is as much about Ken Russell, the director and his kind of crazy worldview as it is about what Pete and the band, you know, were writing about. 00:15:52.799 --> 00:16:02.639 Um, and then when it came to the musical, it was really Des Makanoff, um, who is a terrific director and dramaturg who sat a legendary, legendary guy. 00:16:02.799 --> 00:16:03.120 Yeah. 00:16:03.360 --> 00:16:14.480 And he sat Pete down, and the two of them uh really crafted what the specific story was going to be in a way that that uh theater audience could hang on to. 00:16:14.639 --> 00:16:34.720 And also it was a chance for him to look at the story from a more adult point of view by that point, because he had, you know, when he wrote it originally, he was a you know a young man and didn't have a family and you know hadn't hadn't been a parent and stuff. 00:16:34.879 --> 00:16:45.120 So, and when he was making the the Broadway show, he had, and he had the parents' perspective now as well as the the child's perspective. 00:16:45.279 --> 00:16:48.960 So I think that also kind of informs what the story is. 00:16:49.120 --> 00:17:15.599 But I think, you know, at its heart, it's about um this kind of the conflict of a of a kind of naive, innocent spirit in in the world, and you know, at the mercy of all of the you know the violence and and uh and frightening things that that life kind of presents. 00:17:15.759 --> 00:17:45.359 And um and it's about one person's sort of growth from from uh early childhood trauma into a kind of spiritual leader, and and then getting to the point where he starts to question what is the the value of this, you know, being an icon and and who should we be listening to and who should we be you know deifying? 00:17:45.519 --> 00:18:08.079 And um so it becomes a comment on celebrity and and uh and uh hero worship and um and I think people find lots of ways to connect to that in their own life, which is probably why it becomes so popular, and and then it's just some of the best rock music ever written. 00:18:08.160 --> 00:18:11.440 So I mean the the hooks are uh very, very powerful. 00:18:11.680 --> 00:18:11.920 Yeah. 00:18:12.079 --> 00:18:14.960 Uh Pete Townsend was 24, I think. 00:18:15.519 --> 00:18:16.319 That sounds about right, yeah. 00:18:17.440 --> 00:18:17.599 Yeah. 00:18:17.920 --> 00:18:19.440 When he wrote the music. 00:18:20.000 --> 00:18:23.119 Um how old were you when you got the part? 00:18:24.720 --> 00:18:31.279 I was uh I guess early 30s, like 30, 31, 32. 00:18:31.519 --> 00:18:34.640 I was older than anybody who ever played my parents in the show. 00:18:34.960 --> 00:18:37.359 And and you you still look like you're 30. 00:18:37.680 --> 00:18:38.079 Well, thanks. 00:18:38.240 --> 00:18:38.960 Um you're welcome. 00:18:39.359 --> 00:18:45.920 I have a I have a really distorted uh uh painting in the in the attic that it's that zoom filter, it just does everything. 00:18:46.960 --> 00:18:54.240 Um I I want to know how you got to to the

point where you were able to audition for this role. 00:18:54.480 --> 00:18:57.200 Um was it a cold audition audition? 00:18:57.599 --> 00:19:00.400 Um I was somebody what how was how did it work? 00:19:00.720 --> 00:19:12.960 At this time I was living in Los Angeles, and I had um I had gone out there from New York to do fame, the TV series fame, a few years before that. 00:19:13.200 --> 00:19:20.640 And then after that ended, I just kind of stayed out in LA and continued to do to work in regional theaters like I had in in New York. 00:19:20.720 --> 00:19:36.720 So I was working up in Seattle or San Diego, and um, and at the at the moment when the auditions happened for Tommy, I was doing I was in rehearsals for a production of Richard II at the Mark Taper Forum. 00:19:36.960 --> 00:19:43.119 And I was playing O'Murle, the Duke of O'Murle, and Kelsey Grammer was playing the uh playing Richard. 00:19:43.440 --> 00:19:43.680 Wow. 00:19:43.839 --> 00:20:04.240 Um, and it was uh it was a terrific production, and um and I just got a call from my agents saying, you know, they're doing this rock musical stage version of Tommy, um, and they want you to come in and you can go on your lunch break from uh from rehearsals. 00:20:04.720 --> 00:20:11.519 So that's what I did, and they just said they want you to come in and sing a rock song, and you know, that's the first level of the audition. 00:20:11.680 --> 00:20:22.559 So I went in and remember driving over to the valley and you know, really hoping that I was gonna make it with traffic to this audition and back in time for you know lunch break to be on. 00:20:22.960 --> 00:20:23.839 San Fernando? 00:20:24.319 --> 00:20:26.480 Um yes, yeah, exactly. 00:20:26.799 --> 00:20:31.519 For those of for those of you out there that that are don't know Los Angeles, yeah. 00:20:31.759 --> 00:20:33.200 It can take a long time to get there. 00:20:33.599 --> 00:20:35.839 It can take a long time to get anywhere. 00:20:37.119 --> 00:20:39.759 Um so I went over wings. 00:20:40.079 --> 00:20:41.440 Yeah, exactly. 00:20:41.839 --> 00:20:53.440 Um and I remember that I didn't want to just hand music to a pianist and a companist uh for a rock audition. 00:20:53.680 --> 00:21:03.839 Um and this was a time when there weren't many rock musicals done, and it wasn't common for actors to also have bands and be doing music on their own. 00:21:04.000 --> 00:21:06.400 It was, you know, that's something that's become much more popular now. 00:21:06.720 --> 00:21:10.240 So we're talking early 90s when this is in development? 00:21:10.559 --> 00:21:13.839 Yeah, this I think we started in La Jolla in '92. 00:21:13.920 --> 00:21:17.119 So this would have been either late 91 or early 92. 00:21:17.440 --> 00:21:23.440 Um, so I just brought my guitar and thought, okay, well, just go and play for myself and I'll just sing. 00:21:23.519 --> 00:21:25.680 And I didn't know I used to do that too. 00:21:26.000 --> 00:21:26.319 Yeah. 00:21:26.480 -->

00:21:26.799 Yeah. 00:21:27.119 --> 00:21:33.519 Um, and I didn't they didn't tell me it was for a specific role. 00:21:33.599 --> 00:21:38.000 It was just like, come and sing a song, and you know, that'll be the first step. 00:21:38.319 --> 00:21:42.880 So I um I sang Young Americans, David Bowie song. 00:21:43.200 --> 00:21:46.880 And um, and that was my you know, the first thing. 00:21:46.960 --> 00:21:52.960 And then I got called back, so there was a dance call, which is my worst nightmare. 00:21:53.279 --> 00:21:54.240 Me too. 00:21:54.720 --> 00:21:55.680 Always, always. 00:21:55.920 --> 00:21:56.319 Always. 00:21:56.559 --> 00:21:57.200 Yes, dance. 00:21:58.240 --> 00:21:59.839 But fortunately, Wayne Celento, the choreography. 00:22:00.640 --> 00:22:12.480 Is really good at sort of discovering how you move naturally comfortably and giving you stuff that will make it look like you can dance at whatever level you can. 00:22:12.799 --> 00:22:32.880 And also the other really nice thing that he did was he had the dance calls include everybody from the hardcore dancers to the, you know, the person who played the minister, or, you know, so that you know, you could always, there were tons of people who were better than you in the room, but you could always find somebody else who was like at least struggling as much as you were. 00:22:33.119 --> 00:22:35.039 And that really helped a lot. 00:22:35.279 --> 00:22:47.359 Um, and it was a while before uh like it was another round or two of callbacks before they gave me, you know, music to learn, like Amazing Journey or Sensation or something. 00:22:47.519 --> 00:22:55.200 Um, and I still don't think I knew until until they offered me the part that it was to play Tommy. 00:22:55.279 --> 00:23:05.279 I kind of assumed, I guess, that it would be cousin Kevin or somebody, because I assume Tommy was gonna have to have long blonde, curly, ringlet-y hair like Roger. 00:23:05.599 --> 00:23:08.240 Like Roger Daltrey, the lead singer of The Who, right? 00:23:08.480 --> 00:23:08.720 Yeah. 00:23:08.880 --> 00:23:16.559 And instead, he Pete wanted him to look more like Keith Moon had when they when they first met him, you know, the kind of Maud Bullcut. 00:23:16.880 --> 00:23:27.359 And um and so then when I got offered the role, I thought, well, I'm gonna go back, like I don't I'm not even sure which songs Tommy sings necessarily. 00:23:27.440 --> 00:23:35.839 So I went back and watched the movie in which Roger on camera doesn't sing almost anything until near the end of the thing. 00:23:36.000 --> 00:23:43.839 Most of what you hear him sing is in voiceover while he's just being catatonic Tommy, and it's just the sound inside his head. 00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:47.759 So I was like, I don't even know if I sing all that much in this. 00:23:47.839 --> 00:23:49.279 I don't know what it was. 00:23:49.440 --> 00:23:51.839 And they weren't too forthcoming with information. 00:23:51.920 --> 00:23:56.400 So it wasn't until I

sat down on the first day of rehearsal and we read through the whole script and everything. 00:23:56.559 --> 00:24:00.160 I was like, oh, oh, actually, I'm I'm doing a lot in this. 00:24:00.319 --> 00:24:00.960 It's so different. 00:24:01.039 --> 00:24:03.119 It's so different than the movie in that sense, isn't it? 00:24:03.359 --> 00:24:05.440 Well, this is in the movie, uh, Anne Margaret. 00:24:05.519 --> 00:24:07.440 Uh oh my god, there's so many names in this. 00:24:07.759 --> 00:24:12.720 Anne Margaret, uh Tina Turner, um uh Clapton. 00:24:13.039 --> 00:24:25.599 Clapton Elton John Um uh what's his name uh that played uh uh cousin uh uh I was trying to remember who plays cousin Kevin. 00:24:25.680 --> 00:24:28.400 Uh Cousin Kevin is uh uh man, I can see his face. 00:24:28.559 --> 00:24:29.200 I can see his face. 00:24:29.359 --> 00:24:29.680 Yeah. 00:24:29.839 --> 00:24:31.359 Uh oh, Jack Nicholson? 00:24:31.440 --> 00:24:32.880 No, not no, not Jack Nicholson. 00:24:33.119 --> 00:24:36.319 No, Jack Nicholson isn't he the doctor, maybe. 00:24:36.720 --> 00:24:38.000 Michael, can you look this up? 00:24:38.079 --> 00:24:39.920 The other Michael, my co-producer, Michael also. 00:24:40.160 --> 00:24:43.519 That's really his name, Michael also, not also Michael, but Michael also. 00:24:44.880 --> 00:24:48.400 Jack was the specialist in the movie. 00:24:48.559 --> 00:24:49.039 In the movie. 00:24:49.440 --> 00:24:52.480 Who was um cousin Kevin? 00:24:52.880 --> 00:24:53.759 Cousin Kevin. 00:24:54.000 --> 00:24:58.079 Or just Kevin is the Keith Moon was Uncle Ernie, right? 00:24:58.400 --> 00:24:59.039 Right. 00:24:59.359 --> 00:25:06.799 Right, they got they got the band in there, and uh Pete actually, Pete Townsend isn't actually in it, is he? 00:25:07.119 --> 00:25:17.359 He um in the play guitar in the inner Yeah, in Eyesight to the Blind, he's like this kind of you know cult priest leader kind of guy. 00:25:17.680 --> 00:25:18.240 Right, right. 00:25:18.559 --> 00:25:25.759 Um yeah, the bands show up occasionally, but uh but they aren't really they aren't characters in it. 00:25:26.079 --> 00:25:58.720 I remember at being at my father's house who lived and when this is while we were living in Germany, and I was uh I was living in Hamburg with my grandparents, and we visited my father who lived in Ludwigshafen, which is just across the Rhine River from um uh Mannheim, just on the other side of the river of the Rhine River, and the movie came on TV, and I and I didn't know what it was, but I read the description and I thought, ooh, Tina Turner is in this. 00:25:58.880 --> 00:25:59.759 I have to see this. 00:25:59.839 --> 00:26:00.960 I think that was my draw. 00:26:02.640 --> 00:26:03.519 That was the first time you knew. 00:26:03.599 --> 00:26:04.799 Did you know the music before that? 00:26:04.960 --> 00:26:05.839 Or nothing? 00:26:06.079 --> 00:26:07.039 I didn't know anything. 00:26:07.279 --> 00:26:15.920 I mean, I knew Pinball Wizard because you'd heard it right, you know, on the radio or or something, yeah, um, which was Elton John's version. 00:26:16.240 --> 00:26:16.880 Right. 00:26:17.359 --> 00:26:32.240 And uh and I remember watching the movie, and I must have been like maybe 15 or 16, and thinking this is the craziest and best thing I've ever seen in my entire life. 00:26:32.480 --> 00:26:48.480 Yeah, because it was so different and so spooky and so weird, and it was about abuse and childhood trauma, which nobody really had talked to me about at all. 00:26:48.720 --> 00:26:48.960 Yeah. 00:26:49.200 --> 00:27:05.920 And having experienced it, like many of us have, it's it's it's eye-opening, you know, because it you it isn't really talked about until you get to a point in your own life where you realize, oh, this happened. 00:27:06.400 --> 00:27:07.680 That shouldn't have happened. 00:27:08.480 --> 00:27:10.640 And this this is how it's affected me. 00:27:10.960 --> 00:27:11.359 Yeah. 00:27:12.319 --> 00:27:16.240 But when I watched that movie, I thought, you know, wow. 00:27:16.960 --> 00:27:21.680 It opened up a whole new world for me of what was possible creatively speaking. 00:27:21.839 --> 00:27:29.039 You know, what you could write about, what you could sing about, you know, what what other people may have experienced and how abstract it was. 00:27:29.839 --> 00:27:32.960 The abstraction was just, you know, wonderful. 00:27:33.359 --> 00:27:40.000 Well, it it gave you a lot of room to figure out where to connect it to yourself wherever you wanted to. 00:27:40.240 --> 00:27:41.920 Because you know, the beginning of the so it's a good idea. 00:27:42.960 --> 00:27:44.640 Yeah, the beginnings of it, you know. 00:27:44.880 --> 00:27:45.200 Yeah. 00:27:45.440 --> 00:27:48.720 Um, so so this is it, it's it's such a cool story. 00:27:48.799 --> 00:27:57.680 I know we're gonna we're talking a lot about Tommy, but I I I just think it's something that right now I don't see that that show being performed very much. 00:27:57.839 --> 00:28:02.400 Of course, you know, nothing's been being has been performed very much in the last year and a half. 00:28:02.640 --> 00:28:06.720 Um, but I I would love to see a revival of this, you know. 00:28:07.279 --> 00:28:08.319 Well, there was a plan. 00:28:08.480 --> 00:28:16.640 We did a a reunion concert in La Jolla at the La Jolla Playhouse where we had first started this uh production before Broadway. 00:28:16.799 --> 00:28:24.079 And we did that, I think it was three years ago, maybe, possibly four. 00:28:24.319 --> 00:28:27.039 Um I think maybe just three. 00:28:27.279 --> 00:28:36.480 And and sort of at that, there were some people that they were hoping to convince to, you know, to do a Broadway revival. 00:28:36.640 --> 00:28:47.920 And um and so shortly afterwards they announced that they were planning to, and it was supposed to, it was supposed to have, I think, been on Broadway in 2021. 00:28:48.319 --> 00:29:00.720 Um, I don't know

what the status of it is now, you know, with all that's happened, but I know that Des has wanted to revive it and and Pete has agreed to let that happen. 00:29:00.880 --> 00:29:04.880 So I don't know if it's still on track and being considered. 00:29:05.039 --> 00:29:13.039 Um I would love to see a version that uh that really kind of reconsiders it for for today again. 00:29:13.119 --> 00:29:13.519 Yes. 00:29:13.680 --> 00:29:20.000 Um and you know, see it directed by somebody with a you know with a from a different point of view, you know. 00:29:20.079 --> 00:29:29.440 I think uh, you know, all kinds of marginalized peoples might have really interesting takes on it. 00:29:29.680 --> 00:29:30.079 Oh, yes. 00:29:30.559 --> 00:29:31.039 Oh yes. 00:29:31.599 --> 00:29:32.480 That's what I would love to see. 00:29:32.799 --> 00:29:33.839 Do you know Jeffrey Finn? 00:29:34.240 --> 00:29:34.559 Do you know? 00:29:34.960 --> 00:29:38.480 I I don't think I his name's very familiar to me, but I don't know. 00:29:38.640 --> 00:29:39.839 I'm not certain I know him. 00:29:40.160 --> 00:29:46.319 He produced the version that that I was in, and that went out on the road, but I had gotten another gig with a show called Jekyll and Hyde. 00:29:46.400 --> 00:29:46.559 Sure. 00:29:47.039 --> 00:29:48.400 I couldn't do the tour. 00:29:48.480 --> 00:29:49.359 I would have, you know. 00:29:49.599 --> 00:29:51.839 In retrospect, I probably would have picked Tommy. 00:29:52.480 --> 00:29:54.319 But uh, but you know, hey, timing. 00:29:54.480 --> 00:29:57.920 Timing is everything, you know, you know how that goes in in entertainment. 00:29:58.720 --> 00:30:01.759 Uh it's it's really great talking to you about this, you know. 00:30:01.839 --> 00:30:04.960 It's really uh it's fascinating how what your journey was, you know. 00:30:05.119 --> 00:30:16.559 Um, so I want to ask, so you you get the part, you know, you you realize, you know, this is very different than the movie, this is different than the record, this is a whole new experience. 00:30:16.720 --> 00:30:17.920 Did you were you scared? 00:30:18.000 --> 00:30:20.160 Did you think, how how am I gonna do this? 00:30:20.319 --> 00:30:22.799 Is this was it overwhelming? 00:30:23.119 --> 00:30:24.720 Yeah, it absolutely was. 00:30:24.960 --> 00:30:34.559 Um in fact, when I got the job and we started out in La Jolla, I couldn't sing the entire score when we started. 00:30:34.640 --> 00:30:44.720 You know, I I sang enough of it to get the job, but then when we started in rehearsal, um I found I was really having to work a lot. 00:30:44.960 --> 00:30:50.960 And over the course of rehearsals for that, I expanded my vocal range five notes. 00:30:51.039 --> 00:30:59.599 I added five notes to the top of my range just by the exercise of singing all the time and singing, you know, this high in my range. 00:30:59.839 --> 00:31:11.920 Um luckily, I had when I was in school and I I trained as a singer somewhat, not because I thought

I was going to do musicals, because I didn't really think I would be doing musicals. 00:31:12.000 --> 00:31:14.720 I mostly thought I would be a straight dramatic actor. 00:31:15.119 --> 00:31:21.839 I I studied voice in college because there was no voice and speech and text program there. 00:31:22.240 --> 00:31:32.480 So I thought, well, if I study voice with you know somebody from the music program, then at least I'll have the tools to do Shakespeare, really was my intention. 00:31:32.720 --> 00:31:51.759 Um, but luckily I was trained really well in the mechanics of singing so that as I was having all this extra workload on my voice, I I knew how to do it in a way that would keep me from hurting myself as I expanded what I could do. 00:31:51.920 --> 00:31:55.759 And I also had great examples of singers in the cast. 00:31:55.920 --> 00:32:08.480 Um the two main ones were Jonathan De Kuchitz, who played uh Captain Walker, who played my father, who has one of these beautiful, seemingly effortless voices that obviously comes with a lot of hard work. 00:32:08.640 --> 00:32:11.920 Um so I would, you know, ask him questions and ask him for advice. 00:32:12.000 --> 00:32:23.759 And then Lee Morgan, who played the hawker, who has one of those rock voices that you know sounds like he's gonna lose his voice in five minutes from you know how heavy he sings. 00:32:23.920 --> 00:32:27.599 And yet he can do that for like five hours without breaking a sweat. 00:32:27.680 --> 00:32:33.440 So with the two of them kind of, you know, and asking them questions all the time. 00:32:33.519 --> 00:32:38.160 And then Joe Church, who is the music director, also was, you know, very helpful too. 00:32:38.400 --> 00:32:46.799 Um so just from a pure singing standpoint, yes, I was terrified and and with good reason in the beginning. 00:32:46.960 --> 00:33:00.720 Um, and then from the standpoint of trying to, you know, uh I didn't really feel like I had to carry the show particularly because it's very much an ensemble piece. 00:33:00.799 --> 00:33:07.839 And even though you're playing the title character, um you're very much a part of that whole ensemble. 00:33:08.079 --> 00:33:16.640 I think for me, the bigger fear was to be taken seriously by Who fans who were gonna come to see this. 00:33:16.799 --> 00:33:24.480 And, you know, my my concern was to try to live up to everybody's idea of Roger Daultrey. 00:33:24.559 --> 00:33:32.319 And obviously, I wasn't gonna be able to sing like Roger Daultrey, but Roger Daltrey couldn't sing like Roger Daultrey eight shows a week either. 00:33:32.400 --> 00:33:36.079 You know, it's a different, different kind of vocal demands. 00:33:36.240 --> 00:33:43.119 And when I met him for the first time when he came backstage, um first thing he said to me was fucking high, isn't it? 00:33:44.799 --> 00:33:46.960 Yeah, yeah, you're right. 00:33:47.839 --> 00:33:49.279 Um that's hilarious. 00:33:49.599 --> 00:33:58.000 So uh and so that was my you know, that was my real fear, and that was what you know what I was most daunted by. 00:33:58.240 --> 00:34:18.079 It was funny because after after that production at La Jolla, and then when it was going to go to Broadway, Pete actually had me come over to England and um because I think he felt like he said to me, I can't teach you how to act this part, but I can teach you how to be a rock star. 00:34:18.480 --> 00:34:20.639 So he had me come over to England. 00:34:20.719 --> 00:34:31.679 He'd had me hang out in the studio with him, he had me um do some a little bit of recording on uh this psychoderelict album that he was the project he was working on. 00:34:31.920 --> 00:34:44.639 Um he took me around to the places where the Who played their first club shows and introduced me to the guys that he hung out with, um, you know, his his boyhood friends and running mates and stuff. 00:34:44.719 --> 00:34:58.480 And so I I came home I came home to New York again feeling like I had some right to stand on stage and sing these songs. 00:34:58.559 --> 00:35:04.480 And when I sang come to this house, I knew the house that I was talking about because I had been there now. 00:35:04.639 --> 00:35:24.159 And and that was a real, it was a really generous thing of Pete to do and also really savvy thing because it gave me the the kind of uh backbone that I was gonna need to get through the opening a show like that in that kind of you know world. 00:35:24.559 --> 00:35:31.039 We were just, you know, we were just talking about um confidence and how do you gain confidence? 00:35:31.280 --> 00:35:42.559 You know, for me it was uh um when I stopped uh uh worrying about what my father would think about me, the paternal influence. 00:35:42.800 --> 00:35:43.039 Sure. 00:35:51.360 --> 00:36:01.280 You know, person in quotation marks um that you know when you're growing up, and releasing yourself from that pressure. 00:36:01.920 --> 00:36:12.400 You know, but it's it's it's different for everybody, you know, everybody has a different mechanism on how to how to get that that dose of confidence that you got from Pete Townsend. 00:36:12.719 --> 00:36:16.079 So that's a pretty cool thing to have experienced. 00:36:16.239 --> 00:36:31.119 Yeah to be that close to the composer of the of the role that you're originating in a different medium, in a new medium, Broadway, you know, and Broadway coming back now, and like this, this is it's such a it's such a pivotal time. 00:36:31.360 --> 00:36:35.519 Are you in touch with any of the people that you did the show with back in the 90s? 00:36:35.840 --> 00:36:39.199 And how how do you see a revival of this? 00:36:39.280 --> 00:36:44.800 You know, you were talking earlier about um the idea that to get a different perspective on this. 00:36:45.039 --> 00:36:49.599 Do you think that you would have a perspective yourself that you would put on it if you were to direct this? 00:36:49.840 --> 00:36:52.480 A new collection of of the Who's Tommy?

00:36:53.360 --> 00:37:02.719 Yeah, I I actually have given some thought to it, and at times I I haven't really directed anything, certainly never professionally. 00:37:02.880 --> 00:37:07.519 Um but I occasionally have been asked if I would like to do something like that. 00:37:07.679 --> 00:37:17.360 And um, and one of the things I thought might be interesting would be to do something like direct something that I know so well uh as I do Tommy. 00:37:17.920 --> 00:37:28.400 Um I think I would I would want to go pretty, you know, open the open the gates a lot. 00:37:28.559 --> 00:37:35.440 And um I would like it to be a much more inclusive uh cast than it traditionally has been. 00:37:35.599 --> 00:37:59.599 Um I think it would be really interesting if Tommy were uh uh female or trans or um you know some uh to explore other people's experience of abuse and um and uh self-identity and and self-discovery. 00:37:59.760 --> 00:38:05.760 Um I think those things would be really really interesting and really valid. 00:38:06.239 --> 00:38:15.280 Um like I think they would they would honor the spirit of the of the story just as well and and expand it even more. 00:38:15.440 --> 00:38:18.800 And I have a feeling Pete would be into those ideas too. 00:38:18.880 --> 00:38:26.159 I don't I haven't talked to him about it, but um, but I think he would be, you know, he would be curious about that as well. 00:38:26.559 --> 00:38:28.159 Thank you for talking to me about it. 00:38:28.639 --> 00:38:29.039 Sure. 00:38:30.559 --> 00:38:32.719 I think you should talk to him about it. 00:38:33.280 --> 00:38:33.920 I do. 00:38:34.159 --> 00:38:38.400 I think that's a great idea, you know, and I I mean it is very current. 00:38:39.039 --> 00:38:51.039 Um do you think that the the movement of identity um that is so that is happening everywhere now? 00:38:51.519 --> 00:39:06.559 Do you think that is something that is more of a fad, more of a temporary current, or do you think it's something that will weave itself into every part of society and will last? 00:39:07.280 --> 00:39:20.880 Well, I think it I think it already has, you know, is weaving itself and has woven itself into to uh a vast just because there's so many people that are jumping on this bandwagon now. 00:39:21.360 --> 00:39:26.719 You know, people have been talking about this for decades, but now it's become this thing where that everybody wants to be a part of. 00:39:26.960 --> 00:39:38.559 And I'm and I'm and my my fear is this people are jumping on this because it's hip and cool to talk about identity in this way. 00:39:38.719 --> 00:39:45.599 Whereas it's something that people like you know Bowie have practiced since the 1970s. 00:39:46.079 --> 00:39:52.079 And now it's so I I'm I always think when everybody starts getting on that bandwagon, it's peaking. 00:39:52.400 --> 00:39:54.159 It's something else is around the corner. 00:39:54.639 --> 00:40:08.480 It's very easy to to you know talk the talk and to to you know claim to uh uh connection to it or or an allyship for it. 00:40:08.639 --> 00:40:20.719 Um and and especially because so much of our public discourse or our discourse in general is through social media, it's really easy to tweet about it. 00:40:20.800 --> 00:40:24.880 It's really easy to, you know, Instagram story about things. 00:40:25.199 --> 00:40:44.960 Um and so with you know gender identity, identity, politics, um uh women's issues, uh BIPOC issues, like all the things that people, you know, like you say, are sort of jumping on the bandwagon with. 00:40:45.119 --> 00:41:02.079 Part of it is sincere awakening for a lot of people who hadn't really considered the part that they have played consciously or not, in other people being oppressed or or being denied uh the same rights as everybody else. 00:41:02.320 --> 00:41:07.760 Um and part of it is, like you say, just sort of going with the crowd. 00:41:07.920 --> 00:41:14.320 And it's it's hard to tell when you're in the middle of it whether it's going to be a passing thing or not. 00:41:14.480 --> 00:41:18.719 Obviously, for a lot of people, it's not a passing thing because it's their lives. 00:41:19.039 --> 00:41:26.079 Um and I think when I, you know, it does feel like a bit of a pendulum swing like most things. 00:41:26.159 --> 00:41:43.039 It's like it, the the discussion has to be moved very far to one to one extreme to eventually kind of settle back into where you know it may be in a way that will sustain for a long time going forward. 00:41:43.280 --> 00:42:07.440 Um there are there are ways in which I think uh in order to get to that kind of settled, uh more central position later, you have to push things and uh and deprive some other people of the very things that you know have been asking for for yourself, which I think we're seeing a lot of right now. 00:42:07.760 --> 00:42:24.880 And um and that's just sort of understandable and it's part of human nature, and it's probably not sustainable and probably shouldn't be sustainable um at that level, but it's a necessary step towards getting to the place we want to get to. 00:42:25.199 --> 00:42:49.679 Um I do think that part of the other side that you're talking about, I think we're seeing in the extreme uh reactions against a lot of this and this extreme reactionary conservative uh uh push that's happened in this country in the past, especially escalated since 2016. 00:42:50.079 --> 00:43:18.079 Um I think that's a that's a a specific reaction in a lot of ways of fear of uh change and and a lack of understanding of what's actually being asked for, is you know, not not trying to take away what some people have, but to try to give people who have not had things uh what they have should have had all along. 00:43:18.480 --> 00:43:23.599 Um so I think that's kind of evidence that it is more than just a fad. 00:43:24.159 --> 00:43:41.760 Um but you know, I I like I say, I think I think it eventually needs to come down from the

everybody screaming at each other point before it'll actually become uh you know foundational sort of thing. 00:43:42.159 --> 00:43:42.320 Right. 00:43:42.400 --> 00:43:52.400 Before it be you know, before it gets normalized, you know, before it becomes something that you don't have to have an argument about every time. 00:43:52.719 --> 00:43:53.119 Yeah. 00:43:53.519 --> 00:43:59.760 Uh we're not there yet, but I do feel like it's undeniable that this, you know, it it can't be denied anymore. 00:44:00.079 --> 00:44:13.840 And I'm hoping that the you know the generation that's now coming up will feel like they can do be themselves and I you know, in in any place, anywhere, but we all know that that isn't the case. 00:44:14.159 --> 00:44:14.559 Justin. 00:44:14.800 --> 00:44:24.719 I mean, it's hard enough, it's hard enough to figure out the way for us in big cities, you like New York and you know uh it but or LA or you know, but even New Orleans, I'm sure. 00:44:24.960 --> 00:44:25.119 Yeah. 00:44:25.519 --> 00:44:26.320 Am I saying that right? 00:44:26.400 --> 00:44:28.000 Is it New Orleans New New Orleans? 00:44:28.320 --> 00:44:29.280 You know, there are lots of things. 00:44:30.639 --> 00:44:32.159 There are lots of different ways to pronounce it. 00:44:32.320 --> 00:44:36.639 If you look at the way it's been used in various songs, it's sort of like New Orleans. 00:44:36.880 --> 00:44:41.920 It's it's New Orleans when it when you need it to rhyme that way, it's New Orleans. 00:44:42.079 --> 00:44:43.840 I mean, most people down there say New Orleans. 00:44:44.159 --> 00:44:48.159 It's pretty cool that you live in a city that can be pronounced in more than one way. 00:44:48.400 --> 00:44:48.719 Yeah. 00:44:58.480 --> 00:44:59.760 No, for sure, for sure. 00:44:59.920 --> 00:45:05.519 Uh what what drew you to New Orleans and made made you fall in love with it? 00:45:05.599 --> 00:45:13.920 I I've been there a couple of times and I went to yes, I in in the late 90s I went to Jazz Fest twice, and oh my god. 00:45:14.159 --> 00:45:16.400 It was the first time I saw Bonnie Raitt live. 00:45:16.480 --> 00:45:22.639 It was the first time I saw um I saw Edda James while she was alive, I saw Earth Winds in Fire. 00:45:23.280 --> 00:45:28.320 I mean, it just it was oh god, there were so many memories of that that I will never forget. 00:45:28.480 --> 00:45:33.599 I mean, when I saw Edda James, it was kind of like watching Tommy for the first time. 00:45:33.920 --> 00:45:34.400 Sure. 00:45:34.800 --> 00:45:36.480 I thought, who is this? 00:45:36.639 --> 00:45:37.599 I didn't know she was. 00:45:37.679 --> 00:45:38.880 I mean, I was so green, you know. 00:45:38.960 --> 00:45:42.719 I mean, I was very young, I just didn't really know much yet, you know. 00:45:42.880 --> 00:45:50.559 And I and this woman comes on stage, this big woman with these fingernails that were like longer than her arm. 00:45:51.599 --> 00:46:01.519 And she she sat down in this chair with this cocktail on the side, she had like a cocktail table on the side of that chair. 00:46:01.760 --> 00:46:11.440 And the band, you know, it was a huge stage, and and people were I was right up front, you know, because someone said, Oh, you gotta go see Edda James, you gotta go see Edda James, and I said, Okay, let's go. 00:46:11.599 --> 00:46:13.360 And I go right up front. 00:46:13.679 --> 00:46:14.960 She comes up, you know. 00:46:15.039 --> 00:46:18.239 She's like they helped, she was big then, she was very big. 00:46:18.400 --> 00:46:20.079 Like they had to help her get on stage. 00:46:20.159 --> 00:46:23.760 I mean, she was massive, but she had this fabulous look. 00:46:23.840 --> 00:46:43.199 I mean, she just looked like a a wizard, you know, and she sat down and she took the the microphone, and the first note comes out, and everyone goes, Oh, you know, like it just sucked the air out of an outdoor ampathy, you know, it was an outdoor show. 00:46:43.360 --> 00:46:47.519 Yeah, and it just was whoa, you know, how do you do that? 00:46:47.760 --> 00:46:53.760 And it again, it was one of those life-changing experiences of that's possible, like that is okay. 00:46:54.320 --> 00:46:57.679 You know, you you this is this works. 00:46:58.000 --> 00:46:59.760 People like this, people get this. 00:46:59.840 --> 00:47:03.119 This is a this is an energy that you know cannot be denied, you know. 00:47:03.280 --> 00:47:03.599 Yeah. 00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:16.000 Um, I want to talk about quickly with you about uh uh John Entwistle, because you did some some work with him as well, with your own project, and I want to with your with your own music. 00:47:16.400 --> 00:47:38.880 Well, uh with John, um when we were doing the show, we put together a little band from some of the members of the band that that played the Tommy show, and then some of the cast um would get together with Pete Townsend and we would do these kind of after hours kind of club shows. 00:47:38.960 --> 00:47:40.159 Um at the China Club? 00:47:40.400 --> 00:47:41.599 Yeah, lots of the China Club. 00:47:41.920 --> 00:47:43.360 People don't remember the China Club. 00:47:43.440 --> 00:47:46.480 I don't either, but it was it was the place. 00:47:46.800 --> 00:47:52.559 Yeah, it was it was kind of underneath the beacon theater theater, sort of like next door underneath the beacon club. 00:47:52.800 --> 00:47:53.280 Wow, wow, wow. 00:47:53.360 --> 00:47:54.239 It was on the upper west side. 00:47:54.320 --> 00:47:54.480 I see. 00:47:54.639 --> 00:47:55.440 I didn't I did not know. 00:47:55.679 --> 00:47:55.840 Yeah. 00:47:56.480 --> 00:48:04.079 Yeah, and uh and I don't know what the connection was there exactly why you know why it was that that was the place that we did these a lot of times. 00:48:04.719 --> 00:48:05.840 Godfrey Townsend is? 00:48:06.000 --> 00:48:07.679 Does that name work about guitarist? 00:48:08.159 --> 00:48:09.679 Yeah, he's a he's a good friend of mine. 00:48:09.760

--> 00:48:11.119 We I've known him for a long time. 00:48:11.360 --> 00:48:15.920 Uh he was our guest on on Making Sound episode five, I think, right? 00:48:16.320 --> 00:48:18.000 One of the first ones, yes. 00:48:18.239 --> 00:48:20.639 And uh and he used to work at the China Club. 00:48:20.800 --> 00:48:21.199 Oh, yeah. 00:48:21.360 --> 00:48:27.679 And uh he was like uh before he started like playing there, he he was like just working there, he just wanted to be there. 00:48:27.840 --> 00:48:28.159 Yeah. 00:48:28.320 --> 00:48:30.719 And he told us some great stories about that place. 00:48:30.880 --> 00:48:32.079 But yeah, sorry, yeah, sorry. 00:48:32.559 --> 00:48:34.800 A lot of people pass through there. 00:48:35.199 --> 00:48:59.920 Um, so we would do these things sometimes as a like a you know a benefit thing, and uh and various people who would be in town sometimes would join us, but it was basically just kind of being in the best ever covers band, and you would be on stage, like you know, I sang uh um, oh, I can't remember. 00:49:00.000 --> 00:49:14.480 I was saying some Nirvana song, and you know, I'm like singing and I'm looking over to my left, and there's my guitar player is Pete Townsend, and uh and we would do Who songs and we would do some stuff from Tommy, and then uh we would do just whatever we felt like playing. 00:49:14.639 --> 00:49:28.159 And so one of these times was uh night that John Antwistle was in town, and so he came up town with us and played with us, and so I got to I got to play with two members of of the WHO. 00:49:28.320 --> 00:49:36.320 Uh Roger never came and sang with us, and and Keith was sadly gone by the time that uh that we were doing all this. 00:49:36.480 --> 00:49:40.559 But um, so I I feel like I've gotten to play with half of the Who anyway. 00:49:40.719 --> 00:49:43.599 And then I also got to do a tour with Pete. 00:49:43.760 --> 00:49:57.920 Um he was doing a solo tour during uh the Broadway run, and so he took me out to the West Coast and we did um a little Tommy suite in the middle of his his show with his band. 00:49:58.239 --> 00:50:06.000 Um, and then we did, I guess, San Francisco, Berkeley, and then down in San Diego. 00:50:06.320 --> 00:50:12.639 Um, so that was great because I finally got to sing the music at the volume it was intended to be played. 00:50:13.599 --> 00:50:18.480 Sure, that would be an entirely different thing than putting that on a you know with ear monitors on a Broadway stage. 00:50:18.719 --> 00:50:23.119 It's loud, but it's not the same as as if you're playing in a rock club. 00:50:23.280 --> 00:50:23.760 Right. 00:50:24.000 --> 00:50:27.119 Um that must have been unforgettable. 00:50:27.280 --> 00:50:44.800 I mean, did you what did you take away from all this to with your own music and creating a career as a singer-songwriter, you know, which I I always had this connection to theater and I loved the theater, but I always wanted to be a songwriter, you know, and that's what I'm that's what I do, you know. 00:50:45.039 --> 00:50:54.079 But I I uh uh I kind of put theater to the side in order to really fully pursue the career as a singer-songwriter. 00:50:54.320 --> 00:50:57.840 But I feel like they always kind of influence each other. 00:50:57.920 --> 00:51:02.960 Like I have this idea for a theater show, you know, like there's always there's always a connection between the two. 00:51:03.039 --> 00:51:08.559 It's a it's a it's a marriage and it's an on-off relationship that that has a happy ending. 00:51:08.800 --> 00:51:09.360 Yeah. 00:51:09.760 --> 00:51:30.800 Well, it's funny because I mean, I'm sure you know it's uh people assume that uh those two things should just kind of feed each other and and kind of lead you to the same place, but it actually feels uh often like they're pulling you in two different directions. 00:51:31.039 --> 00:51:50.639 Um and I have found because I I played music almost as long as I've done theater, and I've been fortunate enough to pay the rent by acting, which is no small achievement in itself. 00:51:50.960 --> 00:51:57.280 And I've mostly lost money playing music, which is which is which is how I know I'm a real musician. 00:51:57.679 --> 00:52:15.440 Um and even when even when I was doing Tommy, you know, you would sort of you would think, well, here you're you're in this really very high profile, high visibility rock and roll musical thing. 00:52:15.840 --> 00:52:26.239 When you want to do your own music, that should all kind of help and be, you know, help you get an audience and help you get attention and stuff. 00:52:26.559 --> 00:52:31.360 But it doesn't necessarily, or for me, it you know, it didn't. 00:52:31.599 --> 00:52:50.400 And more often than not, I had I found myself having to apologize or feeling like I had to apologize for the fact that I was in a Broadway musical when I was playing at some downtown club, which I would do like after the show was over, I would go downtown and play at China or different places. 00:52:50.480 --> 00:52:51.519 And oh yeah, yeah. 00:52:51.760 --> 00:52:53.760 Um yeah, that that was a great place. 00:52:54.000 --> 00:52:55.039 We had a residency down there. 00:52:55.599 --> 00:52:58.480 That reminds me of uh yeah, you had a residency Jeff Buckley days. 00:52:58.559 --> 00:52:58.639 Yeah. 00:52:58.800 --> 00:53:00.719 Jeff Buckley, right, Jeff was down there. 00:53:00.960 --> 00:53:01.599 Yeah, wow. 00:53:01.679 --> 00:53:04.480 That reminds me of uh uh yeah, Gary, Gary Lucas. 00:53:04.639 --> 00:53:08.960 Uh he's a guitarist who was who band called Gods and Monsters. 00:53:09.119 --> 00:53:09.360 Yeah. 00:53:09.679 --> 00:53:13.119 Jeff was the the lead singer, and uh Gary's a good friend of mine. 00:53:13.199 --> 00:53:15.360 I did uh an album with him called Stereo Opticon. 00:53:15.760 --> 00:53:18.159 He's gonna be our guest in one of these episodes here. 00:53:18.400 --> 00:53:22.079 But yes, uh that was uh that was like

the the spot for a while. 00:53:22.239 --> 00:53:24.079 And yeah to continue, please. 00:53:24.159 --> 00:53:24.880 That's a great story. 00:53:25.119 --> 00:53:43.599 Um well so you know, so I I uh it's funny, I I've I've felt over the years that musicians, other musicians don't uh uh attach a lot of a stigma to uh uh to what uh to any kind of music. 00:53:43.760 --> 00:53:51.119 Like if it's good music, if it's if you know, is a good performer, a good player, a good singer. 00:53:51.280 --> 00:54:04.800 Um the the musical tastes and the kinds of music that your favorite musicians listen to is probably much wider than you expect, I think, than most people would expect. 00:54:05.039 --> 00:54:17.119 Um it's journalists and and you know music business people who have such uh such rigid walls between you know what you can do and what you can't do. 00:54:17.280 --> 00:54:28.880 And so the fact that I was coming from a theater uh position made me automatically suspect, I think, to a lot of those kinds of people. 00:54:29.119 --> 00:54:42.239 So um so I found like I I had to struggle a lot to kind of um prove my credentials as just a singer-songwriter and just uh just a musician. 00:54:42.320 --> 00:54:45.440 And and to some degree I feel like I'm still doing that today. 00:54:45.519 --> 00:54:51.360 You know, I've I toured with Bob Mold playing guitar for you know this punk rock icon. 00:54:51.599 --> 00:55:06.639 Um I've had put out several records of my own and several with the band and um done tours, and you know, I've played with Pete Townsend, I've sung with Stone Temple Pilots and The Breeders and Frank Black of the Pixies and like all these people. 00:55:06.800 --> 00:55:10.639 And I still feel like I have to hold on while I pick up all those names you dropped. 00:55:11.119 --> 00:55:12.400 No, exactly. 00:55:13.119 --> 00:55:21.039 Um but I still feel like I'm still trying to convince people that I'm legit as a musician. 00:55:21.119 --> 00:55:45.599 And part of it is I think I'm still trying to convince myself of that because I grew up with such an idea of who a musician is from the example of my father who devoted his life to it and is a classical pianist and instructor and and you know knows music theory inside out and reads and everything else. 00:55:45.679 --> 00:55:47.840 And I'm I'm essentially self-taught. 00:55:48.000 --> 00:55:49.039 I don't read. 00:55:49.199 --> 00:55:52.559 Um, I developed a really good ear because of that. 00:55:52.719 --> 00:56:09.280 Um, but it's really easy for me to feel intimidated around people that I feel like are real musicians, you know, people who either have devoted their lives to it, even if they're self-taught, or who, you know, have mastered the the technical aspects. 00:56:09.599 --> 00:56:17.920 So I always feel a little bit like I'm, you know, imposter syndrome when I'm playing music. 00:56:18.079 --> 00:56:27.199 And uh I I mean I feel that as an actor too, because basically every artist feels

like they're gonna be called out at any minute. 00:56:27.440 --> 00:56:39.199 Some of us are better at disguising it than others, but uh do you think that that vulnerability that you feel is something that's useful in translating that into telling a story? 00:56:39.920 --> 00:56:54.880 I think it's useful if it keeps you humble and keeps you uh always learning and aspiring to to uh you know master your your craft more. 00:56:55.519 --> 00:57:09.760 I think I think the parts of it that undermine your um your acceptance of your own skills that's not helpful and that's you know that's not healthy and not useful. 00:57:10.000 --> 00:57:17.920 Um but I think the part of it that keeps you from ever resting I think is very useful. 00:57:19.199 --> 00:57:22.000 You are such a humble person, you know. 00:57:22.159 --> 00:57:26.639 You you come across as so real and down to earth, you know. 00:57:26.719 --> 00:57:28.000 And um I want to be a little bit more. 00:57:28.239 --> 00:57:29.360 Again, it's that filter. 00:57:29.760 --> 00:57:42.320 I want I want people to know that I you're you were so easily, you were so approachable, you know, and I've known your name because of Tommy for a very long time. 00:57:42.480 --> 00:57:51.280 And you know, to sit here 20 years after I moved to New York talking to you, you know, is is a is a wonderful moment for me. 00:57:51.360 --> 00:58:03.280 And I want I want people to know that I I literally wrote to you on Instagram and said, Hey man, I have this podcast, I think you would be a great guest. 00:58:03.840 --> 00:58:10.079 And you were so easily I communicated with you, you were a great communicator, you know, you're organized, you show up. 00:58:10.239 --> 00:58:12.079 Believe me, not everybody does. 00:58:14.320 --> 00:58:16.320 And it's so refreshing, you know. 00:58:16.480 --> 00:58:18.000 It's it's so refreshing. 00:58:18.079 --> 00:58:26.079 And and considering all the people that you have touched and worked with, you know, it's really something. 00:58:26.320 --> 00:58:27.119 It's really something. 00:58:27.280 --> 00:58:29.599 You should be you should be very, very proud. 00:58:29.840 --> 00:58:30.559 No, no, no. 00:58:31.199 --> 00:58:31.920 I mean that. 00:58:32.159 --> 00:58:32.880 I mean that. 00:58:33.119 --> 00:58:46.159 You know, it's it's very easy for for us to, you know, you know, you you were talking about um staying in the moment and not forgetting and and just kind of keeping going, you know, and kind of not letting all of that but sometimes we have to. 00:58:46.320 --> 00:58:48.800 You have to stop and go, look at what I've done. 00:58:49.119 --> 00:58:51.280 Look at what look at what we've done. 00:58:51.679 --> 00:58:55.840 You know, the work that goes into it is endless. 00:58:56.000 --> 00:59:03.440 It seems endless, you know, and you're always competing with someone, you know, no matter what at what level, no matter where you are. 00:59:03.760 --> 00:59:16.159 You know, you always and yourself, you know, which if that's the the most uh if that's the hardest uh competition you have, then um you're in good company. 00:59:16.880 --> 00:59:17.440 Yeah. 00:59:18.159 --> 00:59:27.199 Yeah, well I think I think that's really true, and I'm I appreciate you saying it because you can't hear it too many times. 00:59:27.360 --> 00:59:30.800 And I uh you know I um you have a dog? 00:59:31.039 --> 00:59:31.840 I have a dog. 00:59:32.159 --> 00:59:39.119 Oh um I she's seeing words or something out the window. 00:59:39.360 --> 00:59:42.719 Her name's Evangeline, but she gets called Evie, Evie most of the time. 00:59:42.880 --> 00:59:43.119 Uh-huh. 00:59:43.280 --> 00:59:43.440 Eevee. 00:59:44.239 --> 00:59:45.360 Evie, come here, boom. 00:59:46.320 --> 00:59:48.000 Oh sweet. 00:59:48.239 --> 00:59:48.400 Okay. 00:59:48.480 --> 00:59:49.039 I'm so excited. 00:59:49.280 --> 00:59:49.840 Oh, hello. 00:59:50.000 --> 00:59:51.679 Let's get her on camera. 00:59:52.159 --> 00:59:54.639 This is this is for the uh the YouTube promo. 00:59:54.800 --> 00:59:57.760 Oh adorable! Oh my god. 00:59:58.000 --> 00:59:59.360 Oh, so sweet. 00:59:59.840 --> 01:00:02.320 Evie! There's something exciting happening outside. 01:00:02.480 --> 01:00:02.800 I don't know. 01:00:03.360 --> 01:00:04.719 Oh my god, she's very sweet. 01:00:04.960 --> 01:00:05.599 Very sweet. 01:00:05.760 --> 01:00:07.760 Is she is she a rescue? 01:00:08.000 --> 01:00:08.559 She's a rescue. 01:00:08.800 --> 01:00:09.599 Yeah, she's a rescue. 01:00:09.679 --> 01:00:17.840 She um she came from uh Louisiana and uh as a puppy, and and we've been traveling buddies ever since. 01:00:18.239 --> 01:00:19.039 She's lovely. 01:00:19.519 --> 01:00:20.239 She's lovely. 01:00:21.519 --> 01:00:48.719 Um but yeah, a man uh that what you said about also needing to stop occasionally and and appreciate what what you have accomplished and what you have learned and what you have done, it is a really important thing to do and something that's easy to neglect when you're very focused on on just getting better and learning about things. 01:00:48.880 --> 01:00:55.920 And I very I you know I I forget it plenty and I and I will be reminded by something. 01:00:56.079 --> 01:00:59.840 And and it's funny, sometimes I'll just be really surprised. 01:00:59.920 --> 01:01:12.960 I'll go into a rehearsal process or I'll go into some performing situation and I'll um and I'll have a moment where I suddenly think, oh, I actually do know what I'm doing. 01:01:13.280 --> 01:01:17.760 I actually I actually have some experience and I have something to offer to this. 01:01:17.840 --> 01:01:30.159 And I, you know, I've still got plenty to learn, and there are plenty of other people who are even better than at whatever this thing is than than I am, but but I'm not like without without any kind of merit, you know. 01:01:30.480 --> 01:01:31.280 Not at all, not at all. 01:01:31.360 --> 01:01:34.239 And I think you still have you still

have a lot ahead of you. 01:01:34.400 --> 01:01:37.599 I have a feeling you're gonna we're we're gonna be seeing you a lot more. 01:01:37.760 --> 01:01:38.239 I don't know why. 01:01:38.320 --> 01:01:38.880 I just didn't know. 01:01:39.039 --> 01:01:39.679 I hope so. 01:01:39.920 --> 01:01:41.280 Um I I know so. 01:01:41.440 --> 01:01:42.880 I have a I have a feeling about it. 01:01:43.039 --> 01:01:48.880 Um I wanted to ask you about uh uh back in the New York days at at um Cine. 01:01:51.280 --> 01:01:54.320 Uh Jeff Buckley was in the audience when you played there. 01:01:54.400 --> 01:01:55.039 Is that correct? 01:01:55.280 --> 01:01:59.679 No, he was well, he would be around because he played there all the time. 01:01:59.920 --> 01:02:03.440 Yeah, he played there all the time, and he had like a residency thing as well. 01:02:03.679 --> 01:02:25.280 And um, so you know, it was just kind of like a scene and people would hang out, and sometimes we would always I had a band then called Lame, and it was me and uh Alice Ripley from Tommy and her then husband, Shannon Ford, who's a drummer who played in Tommy as well sometimes, and um, and another friend of ours, John Jinx. 01:02:25.440 --> 01:02:45.760 So we we would play down there on Saturday nights after we had done two shows of Tommy that day, and we would like run downtown and play a set that usually went from about like 11 30 or 12 till 1 30 or 2 in the morning, and they would get up and do a matinee on Sunday. 01:02:45.920 --> 01:02:49.599 So yeah, I mean like you you must have had a lot of energy. 01:02:49.760 --> 01:02:53.440 I mean yeah, yeah, takes that takes quite a bit. 01:02:53.599 --> 01:02:53.840 Yeah. 01:02:53.920 --> 01:02:56.400 Um got a lot of energy from doing it too. 01:02:56.719 --> 01:02:59.360 You look like you have it, you look like you still have it, you know. 01:02:59.440 --> 01:03:00.559 You just you just glow. 01:03:00.639 --> 01:03:02.960 You just uh your energy is just wonderful. 01:03:03.280 --> 01:03:10.559 Um yeah, Buckley, my god, you know that um I mean you know I I'm the I I sing in a movie about Jeff. 01:03:11.119 --> 01:03:12.079 Oh, that's right. 01:03:12.159 --> 01:03:14.559 That's like you know, I'm Tim, his father. 01:03:14.880 --> 01:03:15.760 Yeah, yeah. 01:03:16.000 --> 01:03:18.320 And I'm the singing voice of his father. 01:03:18.559 --> 01:03:18.880 Yeah. 01:03:19.119 --> 01:03:19.760 In the movie. 01:03:19.840 --> 01:03:21.519 It's called Greetings from Tim Buckley. 01:03:21.760 --> 01:03:22.000 Yeah. 01:03:22.159 --> 01:03:30.719 And uh we were just uh, you know, we we were just talking about this because um Larry Beckett is a lyricist, he's a poet. 01:03:30.880 --> 01:03:33.920 He lives in uh in Portland, Oregon. 01:03:34.159 --> 01:03:40.639 And him and his wife, um, they are one of my just some of my absolute favorite people on the planet. 01:03:41.119 --> 01:03:45.440 And um he uh he was Tim's lyricist. 01:03:46.239 --> 01:03:46.960 Oh yeah. 01:03:47.199 --> 01:04:10.079 And uh he did, you know, he wrote Song to the Siren and all of those really powerful songs, you know, that that um uh many people have sung, you know, including George Michael used to use he used to I I found this YouTube clip of George Michael singing Song to the Siren as a warm-up to his show before he got on stage. 01:04:10.239 --> 01:04:12.239 Oh, like back stage he would come. 01:04:12.559 --> 01:04:23.760 How clever, how clever to introduce yourself before you go on stage as background music, and you're the singer, but it's a Tim Buckley song. 01:04:23.840 --> 01:04:26.800 He would sing it live from backstage before he came out. 01:04:28.559 --> 01:04:30.239 And I was like, that's so clever. 01:04:30.400 --> 01:04:31.599 Uh I mean who would think of that? 01:04:31.679 --> 01:04:33.679 Oh, don't that's really that's really clever. 01:04:33.920 --> 01:04:45.599 And it was a Tim Buckley song called Song to the Siren, which is you know one of my favorite songs to sing live, and I've recorded it, and many people have, you know, it's a it's a classic, you know, it's become a classic. 01:04:45.840 --> 01:04:55.679 Um I met I met Jeff originally actually through out in LA through a mutual friend of ours, Carla Azar, who's this fantastic drummer. 01:04:55.760 --> 01:04:57.840 She used to play with Wendy and Lisa from Princess Band. 01:04:58.159 --> 01:04:59.039 Oh my god, stop. 01:04:59.679 --> 01:05:02.400 And she has her own uh her own bands now. 01:05:02.480 --> 01:05:05.199 But um, but so they were really good friends. 01:05:05.440 --> 01:05:17.039 And uh I have a few photos from some night that he and Carla came over to my place in LA, and they're some of my favorite old LA photos. 01:05:17.280 --> 01:05:24.159 Um, and then I remember seeing him the last time I saw him, I guess, was in New York at Tower Records down in the village. 01:05:24.400 --> 01:05:33.440 Um, and it was like a day or two before he was about to leave town, and we were talking about how excited he was to be going to Memphis, right? 01:05:33.519 --> 01:05:44.320 Where he was gonna record and um and how you know much he was looking forward to it and so excited to be going, and you know, and a few days later he was gone. 01:05:44.559 --> 01:05:46.639 Um That's wild. 01:05:46.880 --> 01:05:47.440 Yeah. 01:05:47.920 --> 01:05:48.320 Jeez. 01:05:49.199 --> 01:05:54.079 Yeah, that was 1997 when he when he uh drowned. 01:05:54.800 --> 01:05:55.280 Yeah. 01:05:55.679 --> 01:05:59.599 I remember discovering that album, Grace, which was his only finished. 01:06:00.159 --> 01:06:02.480 Studio album that year. 01:06:02.639 --> 01:06:05.920 And it had already been out for a few years. 01:06:07.039 --> 01:06:12.000 And his mother, Mary Gubert, maybe Mary Gubert. 01:06:12.159 --> 01:06:19.280 I met her at a Jeff Buckley tribute, which is how I met eventually met uh Gary Lucas in Chicago. 01:06:19.440 --> 01:06:28.400 I met uh Mary and uh they were planning and

they were planning a musical talk about musicals, you know, based on on Jeff's uh music. 01:06:30.079 --> 01:06:32.960 It still hasn't come uh come together, you know. 01:06:33.039 --> 01:06:38.000 I think they're still you know working on that, but you know how hard it is to put together a Broadway show. 01:06:38.159 --> 01:06:38.239 Yeah. 01:06:38.559 --> 01:06:51.280 That's another thing that I wanted to actually mention is because you know you have singer-songwriters, which are artists working by themselves, and you have a play, which uh involves tons of people. 01:06:51.599 --> 01:06:58.719 Yeah, you know, so there are thirty thousand or something songs released on Spotify every day now. 01:06:59.679 --> 01:07:00.239 What? 01:07:00.559 --> 01:07:02.800 You know how do you get heard? 01:07:03.119 --> 01:07:06.800 You know, you really have to build up you have to it takes a village, right? 01:07:06.960 --> 01:07:14.159 Yeah and those days in the music business are they're they only exist on this like major label plane now. 01:07:14.639 --> 01:07:16.800 You know, either you're in their camp or you're not. 01:07:17.280 --> 01:07:20.719 Or if you're not then you have to create your own success, you know. 01:07:20.960 --> 01:07:22.239 It's much, much harder. 01:07:22.880 --> 01:07:24.400 But but it's possible. 01:07:24.800 --> 01:07:27.599 It is possible, you know, you can do it, you know. 01:07:27.679 --> 01:07:47.440 And I I just think I hope that uh everyone that's listening to this gets a little bit of motivation from the fact that you and I are doing this, and we do theater, and we do film, and we do other things, you know, and it and it's okay to be a renaissance man in music, you know. 01:07:47.599 --> 01:07:52.880 Like there there I always think the the the worst thing you can do is limit yourself, you know. 01:07:53.039 --> 01:07:58.960 Uh the way I'm producing music now and recording music now isn't how I used to do it. 01:07:59.119 --> 01:08:05.039 You know, I used to get a rehearse a band, get them into the studio, and record the songs. 01:08:05.360 --> 01:08:12.880 Now we are doing a lot of programming, and then we add the live instruments, you know, and we do them one at a time, sometimes together, sometimes not. 01:08:12.960 --> 01:08:15.920 Sometimes people are in other cities and and add their parts. 01:08:16.000 --> 01:08:18.079 And it's all possible now, and it works. 01:08:18.399 --> 01:08:30.479 It's amazing to think, you know, how many bands that broke up because they couldn't stand to be around each other in the end would still be together now if they could be doing it all remotely the way the way we have had to for the last year and a half. 01:08:30.800 --> 01:08:32.319 That's a brilliant thought. 01:08:33.439 --> 01:08:33.920 Yeah, yeah. 01:08:34.000 --> 01:08:41.279 No, they could like they could they could stand to be like on stage on tour and then all go to their separate planes and fly to the next city or whatever. 01:08:41.520 --> 01:08:42.079 Right, right, right. 01:08:42.239 --> 01:08:45.920 But they just couldn't be in the studio for another, you know, four weeks. 01:08:46.239 --> 01:08:53.439 Uh uh, Michael, uh co-producer Michael just threw in here that Pink Floyd recorded The Wall separately, the original The Wall? 01:08:53.600 --> 01:08:54.239 I didn't know that. 01:08:54.479 --> 01:08:54.720 Really? 01:08:54.800 --> 01:08:55.439 I didn't know that either. 01:08:56.000 --> 01:08:56.239 Okay. 01:08:56.560 --> 01:08:59.279 I guess they weren't getting on then already. 01:09:00.479 --> 01:09:03.600 Uh man, but did you see uh I don't know if you like ABBA or not? 01:09:03.680 --> 01:09:04.880 I I happen to love ABBA. 01:09:05.119 --> 01:09:06.159 I think ABBA's amazing. 01:09:06.399 --> 01:09:07.039 I love ABBA. 01:09:07.119 --> 01:09:10.399 I think ABBA are so underappreciated, and they're not. 01:09:10.479 --> 01:09:14.720 I mean, they've sold you know as many records as the Beatles, so there's an irony there. 01:09:14.800 --> 01:09:19.039 But but you know, their new stuff is uh uh is just came out. 01:09:19.439 --> 01:09:20.560 Yeah, I haven't heard it yet. 01:09:20.800 --> 01:09:22.079 It's lovely, yeah. 01:09:22.319 --> 01:09:23.439 It's delicious. 01:09:23.600 --> 01:09:26.560 It's ABBA, it's it's really lovely. 01:09:26.800 --> 01:09:36.560 You know, uh it it's so cool that that it took oh it took 38 years or something for them to you know but interesting that they're gonna get together and get along, you know. 01:09:36.800 --> 01:09:37.279 Yeah. 01:09:37.600 --> 01:09:50.319 But it's you know, they're an interesting act to consider in our conversation because not only was their catalog used to make a really successful musical, but you know, their writers, yeah. 01:09:50.560 --> 01:09:59.119 But their you know, their their principal songwriter, core, wrote songs for musicals as well, you know, for chess and for chess. 01:09:59.279 --> 01:10:00.720 Uh and and there was another one too. 01:10:00.960 --> 01:10:01.920 Did you ever do chess? 01:10:02.079 --> 01:10:02.960 Did you ever do a production? 01:10:03.279 --> 01:10:05.039 I did a concert, uh concert. 01:10:05.520 --> 01:10:06.399 I'm so jealous. 01:10:06.640 --> 01:10:07.840 Yeah, I'm so jealous. 01:10:08.079 --> 01:10:10.720 Yeah, yeah, that's that's I would kill to do that show. 01:10:10.800 --> 01:10:12.239 Yeah, it would cancel everything. 01:10:12.479 --> 01:10:14.960 It's got some great to sing anthem every night. 01:10:15.199 --> 01:10:15.840 Yeah, yeah. 01:10:16.159 --> 01:10:17.760 No man, no madness. 01:10:18.319 --> 01:10:19.119 Oh my god. 01:10:19.199 --> 01:10:21.920 Yeah, I use that for my like I have voice students now, you know. 01:10:22.000 --> 01:10:25.039 I have a couple of voice students and uh I I work on that song with them. 01:10:25.119 --> 01:10:26.079 I go, check this out. 01:10:26.159 --> 01:10:26.720 What do you think? 01:10:26.880 --> 01:10:28.399 Yeah, I go, This

is hard. 01:10:28.560 --> 01:10:31.840 Yeah, and I go exactly it's hard. 01:10:32.000 --> 01:10:33.600 This is not easy music. 01:10:33.760 --> 01:10:36.560 Everyone thinks ABBA is so easy, you know, but this is not ABBA. 01:10:36.800 --> 01:10:39.760 But it even ABBA, it's not easy, you know. 01:10:39.840 --> 01:10:43.680 When you look at it, no, they just make it sound easy, they make it sound easy because it's so good. 01:10:44.159 --> 01:10:49.199 Um, man, uh Michael Cerverus, it is just a delight getting to know you. 01:10:49.279 --> 01:10:54.159 I feel like we're hanging out backstage after a show, and we just happen to be in the same room, and here we are. 01:10:54.319 --> 01:10:56.079 The only thing missing is a cocktail. 01:10:56.319 --> 01:10:57.279 Exactly. 01:10:58.640 --> 01:11:08.159 Um, I wanna I want to uh we have to go, but I'm we're gonna do a little with uh QA for YouTube. 01:11:08.399 --> 01:11:11.199 We do a little YouTube promo, and we're so behind on this. 01:11:11.359 --> 01:11:14.960 The other Michael, we need to get these these QA's out. 01:11:15.119 --> 01:11:18.479 Um I want to thank you so much for being on with us. 01:11:19.279 --> 01:11:20.079 Thanks for the invitation, yeah. 01:11:20.239 --> 01:11:20.800 It's been really good. 01:11:21.039 --> 01:11:23.199 So lovely, so lovely to get to know you a little bit. 01:11:23.279 --> 01:11:24.560 I hope we can stay in touch. 01:11:24.800 --> 01:11:25.199 Sure. 01:11:25.439 --> 01:11:28.239 And next time you you're in New York, we will have that drink. 01:11:28.319 --> 01:11:29.039 Or yes. 01:11:29.199 --> 01:11:32.479 Well, hopefully, if you're if you're back here at least outside. 01:11:32.640 --> 01:11:33.760 Hopefully, yes, yes. 01:11:34.159 --> 01:11:35.680 Anywhere outside, please. 01:11:36.960 --> 01:11:37.760 Uh definitely. 01:11:38.079 --> 01:11:45.840 Um, I want to alert people to that you do have music coming out that you are working on a record with your own band. 01:11:46.000 --> 01:11:46.560 Is that correct? 01:11:46.960 --> 01:11:48.479 Yeah, we're in the middle of this. 01:11:48.560 --> 01:11:49.920 Where's the where are you at with all that? 01:11:50.239 --> 01:12:03.439 We put a record out in June or July of this year that originally was going to come out in uh the beginning of 2020, but that turned out not to be a good time to be trying to put out anything. 01:12:03.760 --> 01:12:04.000 Yep. 01:12:04.239 --> 01:12:09.039 Um, so we uh we held on to it and kind of you know tweaked it some and put it out. 01:12:09.199 --> 01:12:14.479 Um that's the record with my band Loose Cattle, and the the album is called Heavy Lifting. 01:12:14.640 --> 01:12:18.560 And um and we're really proud of that record. 01:12:18.640 --> 01:12:23.119 It's kind of the band's been together for uh nine years, I think. 01:12:23.279 --> 01:12:26.000 But this is and we've we've put out a few other things. 01:12:26.079 --> 01:12:32.000 We put out a live record as our first album, and then uh a holiday Christmas record as our second album. 01:12:32.159 --> 01:12:36.560 So finally, like nine years into the band, we're finally making our debut studio record. 01:12:36.960 --> 01:12:38.800 Who's in this band that we may know? 01:12:39.119 --> 01:12:41.279 Um well uh Kimberly Kay. 01:12:41.600 --> 01:12:45.680 Kimberly Kay is my kind of co-lead, co-band leader. 01:12:45.760 --> 01:12:46.800 Um Hi, Kim. 01:12:47.039 --> 01:12:53.760 And and she's uh she's an amazing singer and uh and it's turning out uh songwriter. 01:12:53.920 --> 01:13:09.439 And um so it's sort of the two of two of us are kind of the core of it in a sort of Johnny and June uh Xine and John Doe from X and the Mekons kind of you know, male, male-female uh cowpunk sort of duo. 01:13:09.760 --> 01:13:10.000 Cool. 01:13:10.159 --> 01:13:20.319 Um, and then our fiddle player is a guy named Rurik Noonan who used to play in a band called Whiskey Gentry and um and travels tours sometimes with Cracker. 01:13:20.399 --> 01:13:22.479 He's been on the road with Cracker recently. 01:13:22.720 --> 01:13:31.439 Um uh and then the rhythm section, the bass player and drummer are uh two guys named Renee Koman and Doug Garrison. 01:13:31.600 --> 01:13:45.039 And they have a band called the Iguanas, who are uh pretty well-known roots uh act um based in New Orleans, but they also played for a long time with Alex Chilton's band um from uh from Big Star. 01:13:45.359 --> 01:13:47.920 So they've kind of been playing together for a long time. 01:13:48.000 --> 01:13:53.680 And and Renee played with Tav Falco and Pantherburns and stuff, so they've got a long, long history. 01:13:53.840 --> 01:13:56.000 So that's that's the band. 01:13:56.159 --> 01:14:06.000 And uh we put that record out and we're hoping to be touring it around now, but of course it turns out not to be the best time to try to travel a lot right now either. 01:14:06.159 --> 01:14:22.880 So so we're sort of using our time instead to be um recording and writing and working on another record that hopefully we'll get in the studio maybe by the end of the year, early next year, and and then get new music out in the spring is our is our hope. 01:14:23.199 --> 01:14:24.640 Yeah, fantastic. 01:14:24.880 --> 01:14:28.960 So uh keep uh keep a look and a listen out for that. 01:14:29.119 --> 01:14:30.560 How can people find you, Mr. 01:14:30.640 --> 01:14:31.279 Serv, Mr. 01:14:31.439 --> 01:14:32.000 Service? 01:14:32.399 --> 01:14:34.399 I'm I'm I'm fairly easy to find. 01:14:34.560 --> 01:14:43.439 I mean, the the band we have a band camp uh site, uh Loose Cattle Band, and um our we have a website, loosecattleband.com. 01:14:43.520 --> 01:14:52.399 We're on uh I don't use Twitter all that much, but we do Instagram a lot, um uh under my own name and also under the band name loose cattle. 01:14:52.880 --> 01:14:55.600 C-E-R V-E-R-I-S. 01:14:56.880 --> 01:14:57.920 There you go, folks. 01:14:58.640 --> 01:14:59.439 Check that out. 01:14:59.600 --> 01:15:01.279 I saw some loose cattle recently. 01:15:01.600 --> 01:15:02.079 Did you? 01:15:02.319 --> 01:15:04.319 Yeah, in Germany when I was just home. 01:15:04.399 --> 01:15:07.439 Finally, you know, you need to slow down when you see loose cattle. 01:15:07.600 --> 01:15:08.800 Yeah, loose cattle. 01:15:10.479 --> 01:15:16.079 They can be uh they can be very um, you know, uh large. 01:15:16.720 --> 01:15:17.840 They can be large. 01:15:18.319 --> 01:15:33.439 And I, you know, we chose that name because Kim and I were starting this band, we didn't have a name for the band yet, and I went to um to see my friend Laura Cantrell, who's a fantastic country singer, playing it playing at Hill Country BBQ in New York. 01:15:33.680 --> 01:15:34.079 Is that right? 01:15:34.399 --> 01:15:52.319 And there's a uh big photograph downstairs in the in the music venue area of uh road sign from the road sign from a Texas side of the road that warns you about loose livestock because it's a problem when you're driving through Texas, you need to be aware sometimes. 01:15:52.640 --> 01:15:53.279 That's where you got it. 01:15:53.520 --> 01:16:00.640 And that's yeah, I misremembered it as loose cattle, and it seemed to kind of seemed to kind of capture the essence of our band. 01:16:00.720 --> 01:16:01.760 So that's good. 01:16:02.000 --> 01:16:10.720 See, and now you know, my little trick of talking about the name of your band a few times so that you know, seven times you're supposed to hear something seven times before you remember it. 01:16:10.800 --> 01:16:11.520 So there you go. 01:16:12.399 --> 01:16:26.079 Uh hope uh hope that everybody checks you out and follows you because you've had such an interesting career, and uh you're super interesting to talk to and um really a a pleasure. 01:16:26.239 --> 01:16:27.279 Thank you for doing this. 01:16:27.439 --> 01:16:28.319 Really appreciate it. 01:16:28.560 --> 01:16:30.640 Thanks for having me on, folks. 01:16:30.800 --> 01:16:34.640 Next time we have who do we have on next time, the other Michael? 01:16:34.800 --> 01:16:36.800 I just call you the other Michael from now on. 01:16:37.119 --> 01:16:37.680 Who do we have? 01:16:37.840 --> 01:16:39.199 We have Chuck Alcazian. 01:16:39.359 --> 01:16:42.239 Chuck Alcazian, I think that's I'm pronouncing that correctly. 01:16:42.640 --> 01:16:48.560 Chuck is a uh producer who has uh worked with oh my god, like a lot of people. 01:16:48.720 --> 01:16:49.279 Eminem. 01:16:49.600 --> 01:16:50.560 Oh my god, really? 01:16:50.720 --> 01:16:51.359 Mm? 01:16:51.680 --> 01:16:53.920 Okay, I'm gonna have some questions for him. 01:16:54.239 --> 01:16:59.840 And uh Chris Cornell, Mike Skill of the Romantics, who was on our show, and uh lots of other people. 01:16:59.920 --> 01:17:01.920 So check that out next week, folks. 01:17:02.720 --> 01:17:04.079 We'll see you then. 01:17:04.720 --> 01:17:05.359 Thank you.