התמלול המלא של Making the Complex Awesomely: Simple A Conversation with John Spence

me questions. And then he asked a question. I think that was life changing, business, life changing for me, which is, alright, now that you've understood that, what are three things, three specific things you're gonna do as a result of reading that book? So he was the one that first tied the idea of turning ideas into action. It's not enough just to learn, but you have to actually take it and apply it in the real world for, so for six years, I got a book every Monday and had to make, make a book report every Friday. Uh, and then he did something else. He would bring me into big meetings, you know, huge, huge deals. Uh, and he'd, he'd just sit there and take notes. And then afterwards he would grill me. What did they do right? What did they do wrong? What would you have done differently? More than I could get in any MBA. So he was a big life changer as well. Fantastic what an incredible privilege I So he saw something in you? Wow. I was lucky that he did, and he had a son about my age. And I think he took me under his wing. And, you know, I think kids don't always listen to their parents. And I had to listen to him. I was kind of working for him. Uh, and I think he decided I got lucky. Uh, and we remained friends for years after I left the foundation. And he was, had always been an influence on my life. But yeah, I got very, very lucky. He was, I mean, he was the right hand man to a billionaire. Yeah. Uh, who was sort of his, his lawyer, his accountant, his, uh, you know, uh, guide and advisor. Mm-hmm. So all the wisdom he'd learned from doing that, he tried to pass down to me. Incredible. Incredible. What, what was your mindset like going into C EShip at 26? Did you have, did you face impo? Like did you, did you in face, did you face everything? We all face imposter syndrome. What am I doing here? Oh my God. What happens if I screw up? Yeah. I had a world record level of imposter syndrome. Really. There was two things I would worry about almost every evening. Hmm. One was, what are they gonna figure out? I have no idea what I'm doing. Uh, and then number two is I would lay awake and, and think about all the kids I had to put through college. And I don't have kids. Mm-hmm. All the families that worked for me. Yep. And you know, there were mortgages and car payments and kids to put through college and all that stuff. And I knew it was my responsibility to run the organization well so that I could take care of them and they could take care of their families. So the responsibility hit me pretty hard. I have a, I do a fair amount of executive coaching. Mm-hmm. And I just coached a COO that stepped into the CO position. Mm-hmm. And I said, that chair's a lot different, man. It's a lot. Oh, okay. But he called me about three months later, he goes, this is totally different. Like the level of responsibility is exponential. Yes, I wanna pull the pin a little bit on that 'cause it just sparked something, uh, in me and I wanna see if you have the same

experience. And so, you know, we're a little bit more seasoned in our careers and I, and I know that both you and I get the privilege of speaking to the young, the young guns out of just coming out of university commencements and whatnot. I always find it interesting when people come up to me afterwards and say, oh, I just wanna be a leader. And I'm like, oh, you need to come sit down with me. You need to tell me why. What do you think it is? And sometimes I get these bright eye and bushy tails, oh, you get to travel and you know, you get to go golfing every day and you get to go to all these events. And I'm thinking, oh, we need to sit down much longer than that. I think that we have not done a really good job imparting the responsibilities that come with the title. What are your thoughts on that? Uh, I just wrote a blog on this, that, uh, leadership is not position or title. It's a responsibility. It's an honor. Yes. And one of the things you try to share is it's not about you. Nope. You know, you, it's servant leadership. It's not me at the top one. This is what I want you to do. It's, it's the leader at the bottom go. What can I do to help you and realize that your job in life is to make everyone else that works with you as successful as possible. Because if they are, the business will be successful and you'll be successful. Yeah. So this thing of, you know, you get to play golf and travel, like no, it's the other way around. You spend the entire day, your entire life taking the best care you possibly can of people. Mm-hmm. And if you love it, you know you're gonna have other hobbies and stuff, but you'll love your business so much. That, uh, you're having fun every day and you love the people you work with. Then you heard the word I use love. Yeah. I just turned 61 this year, so I'm in the latter stages of my career and, you know, we had talked before we went on about legacy. I've decided that the stake I'm gonna put in the ground for the rest of my career is about loving your employees, being a, a leader who loves their people and not romantic love, but moral love. Yeah. And moral love is around honesty and integrity, and doing what's best for the people that, that are with you and genuinely caring about them. Mm-hmm. As an individual. Now, this doesn't mean you have to be their best friend or their therapist. You also have to love them enough to hold them accountable. Yes. Yeah. I was with a client who said something beautiful the other day. He said, yeah, there's a difference between being kind and being polite. Polite is not holding. Oh, I don't wanna, I don't wanna hurt anybody's feelings. And wow, this report isn't quite what I was hoping it would be. That's not kind if you love someone enough being kind to saying, we need to do a little bit better here. Mm-hmm. And this isn't quite what I was expecting. Let's sit down and talk through and clarify the expectations and let me help you to help yourself to get better. Yeah. So, I'm

a big fan for creating that kind of a relationship with your team. My whole belief is if I lift up people and help them be more successful in their life, they're going to be better with their family. The community's going to benefit and then, and through a circular, you know. Win, win win, the business will be just fine. That's the way I've always looked at it. Mm-hmm. Yes. I think that people over index on the empathetic side and forget that Clear is kind. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. You know, I got a question for you. Like, instead of working for others, choosing to work for yourself, being recognized like, this is why I'm a little, my palms get sweaty, but being recognized as one of the top 100 business thought leaders in America and a finalist for the Thinkers 50. Oh my God. That the Breakthrough Idea Award. Oh, I mean, talk about the brass ring. You're sweet. Thank you. Thank you. It's the truth. It's everything. I aspire to look out. You're, you're, you're setting a great pace and a great tone of what we should all aspire to. What made you choose to go out and on your own and, uh, really breathe more life into John's Spence as an, as an organization? I'll tell you that, and then I'll tell you a quick, fun story about the Thinkers 50. Yeah. What, ask the question the first one again. What breathed life into me? Deciding to go out on my own. Yeah. Instead of choosing to work for others. 'cause you know, you, it's, it's not like you did not have a plum resume. What made you decide? 'cause it's different. Yeah. I, when I, when I was at the foundation, um, my job started to become very political, not political within the organization, but I was going back and forth to Washington, CDC testifying before Congress doing all this stuff. And I got up there and nobody told the truth. They would look right in your face and lie to you. And honesty is my highest value. Mm-hmm. So that's why I left the foundations, not because I didn't love my job and love the people I work with. I just got tired of going to, to DC. And having my, you know, my, my heart crushed. And there was a gentleman that when I was at the foundation, said, if you ever wanna leave, you call me. I want you to be the CEO of my company. And it was an international, uh, sales training and strategy for him. So I went there and after about a year, I realized that he had a real problem with the truth too. Ah. And I said, you know, if, if, if I'm gonna be surrounded by people who don't embrace the idea of telling the truth, I know I'll, so I, I'll start my own business and I will go out and find the people. You know, I, I've got a saying, I was talking to my partners in New Zealand. IW wouldn't work with you if I wouldn't work for you. Mm-hmm. And that's a pretty high bar. So what sparked me was I, I couldn't handle the people I was around that weren't telling the truth. It was just so offensive to me. Now the quick story. When I went out on my own, I looked around and said, if I'm gonna do this, be a consultant, a professional speaker, and all that stuff, who's the number one person in the world? And at the time I was doing it, it was Tom Peters. Mm-hmm. He had written in search of excellence and on and on and on. So I looked at him and said, then what I'll do is I created a list of everything Tom Peters did to become the best in the world at what he did. And I just started checking stuff off that list, and I figured if I checked everything off the list, eventually I'd be doing pretty good. So I ended up on a plane ride with him to Singapore, sitting next to each other in first class. And, you know, I had flown across the country to listen and give speeches. I read everything he'd ever written and I said, I'm not gonna bother you, Mr. Peters. I just, I wanna let you know I'm a big fan. And we chatted for a little while. Uh, and then finally he said, so what do you do? I said something like, you do, you know, I, I do professional speaking keynotes, blah, blah, blah. He said what's your goal? I go to replace you. Yes. And he did what you just did. He laughed at me. Yes. And when I was at Thinkers 50, I was in the selected in that topic, eight for the award. Yeah. Uh, sitting next to me at my table was, who? No shit. Im Peter's getting his lifetime achievement award. And I leaned over and told him about the story about Singapore. He goes, you did it. You caught me. I'm like, yeah, pretty close. You know, I'm sitting at the table with you for the top eight in the world, so I guess I'm doing okay. And he signed a bunch of first edition books for him, me, everything. And he wrote in one of them, you caught me. Congratulations. Oh my God. So now, and the reason I say this to your listeners is I, I didn't, I just looked at it and said, all right, what does it take to be among the best in the world? What are all the things I would have to do? Write books, read, you know, all the stuff. And I created checklists and I just said, great, I'm gonna put my head down. I'm gonna do everything on this checklist. And if I do, uh, then the outcome should be where I want to be. Jesus. And you blushed a little bit when I called you a rock star. Come on. Oh my God, that's amazing. I got a question for you about honesty. I'm a big fan of that, and I'm a big fan of integrity and standing. And integrity, even when you're wrong. Mm-hmm. Standing in integrity, always raising the bar. Always striving. Always striving for more. Outside of politics. 'cause I think lying is easy in politics. Yep. Why do you think people struggle? Like fundamentally, you've worked with so many different people, so many different countries, so many different experiences and environments, and there's a common thread with, uh, honesty. Why do you think people, leaders have a hard time with honesty? Do you think that, uh, do you think that it's more, I don't wanna hurt some, I, it's, I don't, I I don't want to damage someone else. I, I Do you think it's more of that

altruistic, I don't wanna hurt somebody? Is it that they don't like the conflict? They don't know how to deal with the conflict? 'cause honesty does create conflict. What do you think fundamentally, we need to change or we can, uh, have as a takeaway to help build a more honest and honest anchored and integrity environment? I, I think what drives it is fear. Ah, tell me before about that. The fear of, uh, looking vulnerable. The fear of saying you don't know, the fear of admitting that the situation isn't what you wanted it to be. Uh, you know, talking about things that you're uncomfortable. So does some of the things. But I think all of it, I mean, I think all stress and pressure backs down to fear the fear. Mm-hmm. The fear of looking stupid. Yeah. Uh, the fear of not being enough. Mm-hmm. So I'm gonna exaggerate or make things up to make myself look bigger. Mm-hmm. Uh, so I think the idea is, and what we just kind of hit on a note is imposter syndrome is a big driver. Every CEOI coach has imposter syndrome. Uh, and they go, really? You know, does everybody else? I'm like, yeah, everybody. I said, I still do, everybody. Nobody gets a hall pass an imposter syndrome. No, no. You similar to, Hey, when you write the forward to my book, I'm like, why me? Yeah. You know, like when I wrote my first book, I'm like, I'm not smart enough to do this. No one wants to read what I, 'cause you know, I'm, I'm obviously a fanatic reader and I looked up to authors as like, these people are really good at what they do and I'm not on that level at all. Yeah. So all of us have that and uh, so it's the fear of looking like you don't know what you're doing. The fear of not having that conversation. It all gets back at, at least in my belief, my opinion. Yeah. At some fear that you can't overcome. So you tell people what you think they want to hear. Mm-hmm. Or what you think will impress them or you don't wanna hurt their feelings. Yeah. Uh, and I don't think a lot, a lot of people go out and say they want to be a liar. Um, no. The truth. It's, it's pressure and fear, in my opinion. Yeah, so interesting. So interesting. I wanna understand, some of the early influences that really shaped your thinking and your decision to really anchor yourself and champion yourself in the concept of simplicity in leadership. I'd love to unpack that, uh, a bit with you. So if you could kind of give us like how the, the, the precursor, the layup on what, uh, what, what, what built the championing behind the simplicity? What is simplicity in leadership? I've built my entire career on this, on this idea pattern recognition. Mm-hmm. And I think simplicity is cutting through the noise and understanding the pattern. Uh, you know, I read about, since 1989, I've been reading about a hundred, 120 business books a year. And people ask me like. Doesn't, you know, how many business, uh, leadership books have you read? I'm like, two or 300. Uh, doesn't it get redundant? And I'm like, absolutely.

And it's great. Mm-hmm. 'cause now I understand the pattern. I can take mm-hmm. 5,000 pages and boil it down to here's the five things that, or six things that roughly every one of them says. Yep. Then you just teach the pattern. Yes. Uh, like strategy. Strategy can be extremely complex. There's a lot of tools you can use, but when you boil it down, there's only a handful of things that truly drive strategy. And if you can get those things right, a lot of the other stuff falls into place. Yes. I love that. I love that. So then walk through the, uh, there's six of the, six of the strategies. Six, yes. Well, it, uh, it the, I've created a couple new frameworks. Oh, good. And I think the one, because you're, you know, you're well known for strategy, I'd like to share with you and Yes. And we could talk about it. It'd be a blast. And very few people have seen these. I, it's, I have a hard time remembering them. Oh, yes. I didn't even know how many there are. Uh, so we'll go through them and I'll remember 'em. Yeah. Uh, the first one to, to create a world class company, in my opinion. Yep. You build it. Uh, the first one is purpose-driven leadership. Okay. What does it mean to you? I think that, uh, those are big words and some of them, some people banter them around purpose-driven leadership, but I don't think they really know or, or connect to what that means. So from your experience, what does that mean? I can, I can explain it to you through two stories. Yeah. Um, people are super engaged when they believe in what they're doing. Mm-hmm. That it's more, you know, it's something meaningful and important. It's, it's something bigger than a paycheck. So, one of my clients owns a company that builds gearboxes not particularly sexy, but they build them for oil rigs, giant air conditioning units on the top of, you know, major buildings. They also build them for nuclear submarines and aircraft carriers. Very cool. And they bought a company that made gearboxes for military helicopters. Okay. And I went, my friend took over as CEO of that company and I went to the first meeting where he was gonna introduce himself to all the employees, about 400 employees, big hangar, you know, folding plastic chairs, big hangar, where they, you know, work on the helicopters and stuff. And he's, he, he introduces himself, he said, before I speak though, I'd like, our number one customer in the world. To say something with you and a general walks out onto the platform and, uh, you know, covered in medals getting scrambled eggs. I mean, just super high level. He stands at the podium and he looks around the room, looks at everybody, you know, makes eye contact. Then pauses and says, both of my boys fly helicopters in Iraq. Don't kill my boys. And then he walked off the stage. Do you think those people make gearboxes anymore? Hell no. They bring young American soldiers home to their families. They bring young men and women back to their husbands and wives and

moms and dads and brothers and sisters. Uh, I mean, it still gives me goosebumps when I tell that story. So I have another friend that owns a prosthetics company and they make legs, prosthetic legs, and they call it crutch. In walk out, someone will come in with only one leg. They will custom fit him. Get it all right, you know, get their gate right and everything. Then they go, Hey, let's walk around the office and let everybody see this. So the person with the brand new leg that came in with only one leg walks through and the person in the shipping room sees a person who says that, you know, and someone from accounting and someone else says, that person wasn't walking when they came in here. Now they have two legs and they're gonna walk out the front door. And I helped make that happen. So here's my belief. Every single organization, every organization on the face of the earth at some level, has a noble purpose. Some are bigger, you know, like a hospital or you know, a fire department or something like that. But even the, even the most mundane companies we make gearboxes, can be tied to a noble purpose. And when I say purpose-driven leadership is, I believe that you should be able to tie uh, direct line from every employee to something truly meaningful and important. I love that. I'm a big proponent of that. It's never about what you do, it's about how you make people feel. Yep. Yeah. In every single aspect of your life, it's never about, it never matters about what you do. No. It's how you make people feel. Wow. So number two is people centered culture. Yeah. That, we just talked about this a little bit, but I'm a big fan for hire talented people, take amazing care of them, get outta their way, and everything will be good. I've looked at it in most organizations, culture is the place with the highest possibility for improvement and success, or driving a company into the ground. And quickly, quickly, I use a phrase called po equals cash. Culture equals cash. I love that. It's so true. And it's amazing that I, I struggle with some people I work with, but other things that just don't. Don't think about their people much. You know, I, I've got a manufacturer I've done coaching with. They have 12 locations. 12, you know, where they sell stuff. And four of 'em are on the way home from his office to his house. And I said, how often do you visit him? He goes, once a year for an hour. I'm like, dude, it should be every damn week. Yeah. Bring donuts, get flowers for the ring room. Bring your dog exception room swing by, ask them about their kids. Get to know 'em. He's like, why? I was like, let me help you understand something. You wanna improve your business. You do that. Get to know all of 'em personally. Talk about your purpose. The things you do, you will, your business will explode. Mm-hmm. Uh, whereas a toxic culture will drive all your best people out ASAP and keep all and, and keep all the dead ones. Yep. Yeah. Yep. They'll, you know, the single biggest reason that people leave companies about 80%, 79% is they don't quit the money, the hours, the work, the load. They quit their immediate, uh, supervisor, leader, uh, or quit the leader because how they made them feel. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The new Gallup International Gallup, uh, thing on engagement just came out, and it, this is so sad. Only 21% of employees around the world. Are engaged 21, which means 79% are disengaged or actively disengaged. If you could move your engagement points up, and you know, I'm not saying every company's at 21%. I work with some great companies that are 70, 80, 90. Mm-hmm. But if your company's struggling, if you could just get your culture up at 4, 5, 6, 10 points. That'll go right to the bottom line at some level. Yes, yes, yes it does. 'cause that's what fuels performance. Exactly. Yeah. So we have purpose-driven leadership. Yeah. People first culture. Next one is customer centric strategy. Ooh, okay. extreme customer focus. And keeping the customer at the center. I get that. I love that. You can tell I've been drinking your Kool-Aid for a while. I'm a fan girl. I'm a fan girl. Okay. Tell me, tell me this in your experience. So yes, we all, subscribe to the customer, focus. When have you seen organizations that index too far and worry so much about the customer? They forget about the business or they think that, you know, if we treat our customers well then we don't need to be sa a sales organization. We just simply just need to treat our customers well. And if everything is gonna be fine, it's not quite the way it works. Uh, yeah. So it's not typically the road to massive success. You know, I'm saying customer-centric strategy be the one for it. Is people first culture. Yes. Uh, so when you look at it, your people are actually more important than your customers. If you're a leader, yes. Your number one customer is your employees because Yes. 'cause they are your customers. Yeah. They're your number one. Because if they don't, if you don't take care of them, I've got all these phrases. You know, this Allison, um, the customer's experience will never exceed the employee's experience. Uh, so customer centric strategy is, and I, here we go with phrases, man, I'm outta control with phrases today. Um, whoever owns the voice of the customer owns the marketplace. Yes. Now, that doesn't mean you're totally obsessed with everything every client says. Mm-hmm. But again, you look at patterns. Mm-hmm. If we're talking to enough customers, if we're interacting with them, if we created relationships, we've got enough information that we can track what they're doing. Then I can use that to come back and inform my strategy. We could go off in a hundred directions around this, but one of the things I, I advise some of my clients to do is create a customer. I did this for one client, create a customer panel of your six, eight most important customers. And this was a company that, uh, $200

million landscaping company. Okay. And, and about 40 million of their 200 million came from about a dozen clients. and they're expanding, but the clients were Yeah. Like Disney World was a client. And I said, why don't you, why don't we create a customer panel of your biggest clients and bring 'em in and let's ask 'em just a couple questions. Mm-hmm. And we had 'em a panel and we had the entire company in the room. All the employees in a big ballroom and a panel with a couple of their, you know, key, key, key customers every and microphones up there. And I asked them this question, why specifically do you bus, do? And I turned around and said, do business with these folks. What are the top three or four reasons? Mm-hmm. All of them spoke. It was roughly the same four reasons really. And I turned to my client and said, that's your marketing plan. That's your strategy. That's your brand. If I figure if these people spend 20, $30 million a away, you know, a year with you for roughly the same reasons, I'm thinking that's probably why other people spend money with you. Yes. So, and I, that's your differentiator. That's your double down. Bingo. Got it. And the way you do that though is by going to the people in my opinion, that spend a lot of money with you and ask them why, and they will tell you and then you turn around and go. Well, that's pretty easy. There you go. There's four things we need to focus on. Yes. And do it really, really, really well. Yeah. Well, actually, it's funny because that's the next one. Yes. The next one is focused innovation. Oh, you're brilliant. Focused in a, I'm a, I'm a fan boy. So, okay. Getting into this innovation, can I ask you a question about what you do really, really, really well and get better and better and better at that? Yes. Oh my God, yes. Oh my God, yes. You've seen so many companies. Shiny red ball, squirrel. Pivot, pivot, pivot. I hate the word pivot. Yes. Unless the market demands it. Yes. If your customers, by listening to 'em and talking to 'em, they're going into different direction, or a new competitor comes in, or technology, whatever, that's a good reason to pivot. But other than that, figure out what you do well and just constantly innovate and get better and better and better at that. And that's what differentiates you in the key areas where your customers want you to be. Oh, I love this so much. I wanna pick your brain a little bit on innovation. Somewhere along the lines, and I don't know if this is just my thinking, but now I know it's your thinking too. So I'm on the right side because. Why do you think some people, some leaders, uh, in business think that innovation means they've gotta go and get this new, bright, shiny, no one's ever heard of it. We're now gonna sell shoes in a car company. Versus what I see innovation is getting deeper into what's working and especially what's not, and refining that. So to me, innovation is more about continuous improvement than a complete pivot. Something else that's this big, shiny squirrel that makes no sense, but it's sexy. Yeah. I think we've somehow lost this sort of, um, understanding of, you know, oh, you've just gotta be more innovative. And people think when they take that feedback away, oh, I've gotta go create something new. It's gotta be this thing that no one's ever heard of before. And then it becomes such a distraction to business. Yeah, I, I think a couple of reasons. It's boring to do the same thing better. You know, uh, you know, I, and this is what I see in entrepreneurs. I'm a visionary. I see the future. I can create things that didn't exist and new companies and knew this, and New Horizons. I've got one client, I've done their strategy for nine years. I think we haven't made any changes to it, just tweak it to get a little bit better, a little bit better. Like, they're number one in their industry, in the world. They have the highest profit margin. And I, they've just hired me to do it again. I'm like, you sure? Because not much is gonna change. And they're like, now we'll come spend a day with you. Maybe the, you know, maybe something will change. But I go to them and see, you guys understand this. You're in your, in your industry. Uh, you are the best of the best. And it's because you figured out what your customers want. And they are constantly innovating and improving there, but. Does that sound exciting? You know, to the outside, you've been doing the same damn thing for nine years? Not really. They're always trying new stuff, but it's all focused on. What do we do well and what do our customers want? And you know, you can always test a few things and how stuff works. A small project. Yeah. But taking the whole battleship and turn it another direction because, you know, you saw some cool thing that you think would be interesting to do. That's not typically what drives a world-class company. I have a couple clients that, um, change strategy more than I change cars, which is saying a lot. And we're not just talking a little tiny pivot. It's like, okay, we're all going in this direction and 18 months later we don't like that direction anymore. Okay, everybody, we're going in this direction and we're gonna do 15 months. Well, and now we, that didn't work, so we're not gonna go back to center, so we're gonna go back in this direction for 18 months. Yeah, I see that a lot. And because of that, there's, you know, one of the, I, and I've got one more thing to share with you in the, framework. Mm-hmm. But years ago, we'll get to it in a minute. Years ago I attended a, uh, conference of bankruptcy lawyers. Oh. Oh, that would've, yeah. Fun people. Oh, great. But it was in the Cayman Islands, and it took me while to figure out why we're in the Cayman Islands, because that's the offshore, one of the offshore havens. It is, but it was also very pretty. But I sat through their meetings and on the last day they had a panel of some of the top bankruptcy lawyers in the world.

I raised the hand, you're gonna let my hand, when it opened for Q and a? And I said, what's the pattern? And they went, what? I go, what's the thing you see over and over and over again? That causes companies to go into bankruptcy, and we'll see if I can remember this. The first one was ignorance. Not paying attention to the marketplace, not listening to their customers, not doing competitive, research. So they just weren't paying attention. The next one was indifference. Uh, we don't think we have to change. We're number one in the world. We've been doing this for 20 years, you know, we set the standard so we don't need any change at all. The third one was in flexibility. We know we need to change, but we can't get our people to change. You know, we've always done it here. Business as usual, they resist change. But the, the fourth one is the one you and I are talking about, which is inconsistency that we change so much. Yeah. We never get any traction. No. You know, you can't get traction on a strategy in 18 months if it's brand new and in a new direction. You know, I, I don't know what your number would be, but I. You know, I, I say in 18 months you've got no very little impact. 24 months you could start to look up a little bit. At three years, things are starting to really get, you know, yeah. You're getting traction. Yeah. And in five years you're probably doing, now there's gonna be some detours along the way, but yeah, if you're changing strategy every 18 months, 24 months, you never get, in my opinion, never getting a chance to get any traction and move forward. Well, there's no learning and you don't allow the incubation. You've gotta test it. Practice test, prac, practice, practice, practice, test, test, test, learn, learn, learn. Little tweaks, little tweaks, little tweaks. I think that, um, that it, uh, the luxury of, of working with smaller businesses, with smaller workforce, they have less corporate tentacles sometimes. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So that window can close. We can see when it comes to strategic mapping, we can see impact fairly quickly because the right, the right decisions are made to and the right impact points. But as you get bigger and bigger and bigger, trying to maneuver the Titanic, so to speak. Yeah. You have to allow it, it to stay its course. That leads perfectly into the last part of the framework operational simplicity. Oh, which is, which? It's all about remove all the friction for execution. Yeah. Every stupid rule, every level, you know, you get, have to get an approval, make your operation as simple and frictionless as possible so you can execute at the highest level of efficiency. Mm-hmm. So you, this has been fun because you've been one step ahead of me, which is really cool. Uh, so let's go. It was purpose-driven leadership. Yep. People first culture. Yep. Customer centric strategy. Yep. Focused innovation and operational simplicity. Yes. Yes. I love all of it. Tell me where, tell me where we know that the

true rubber hits the, hits the road for, uh, all of us, uh, when it comes to the difference between, uh, design, discovery, and then deploy. So the deployment is the execution arm of it. Oh, look at that. Yeah. Yeah. When I, during the last recession in America, I. Yeah, I watched very carefully why companies were struggling or failing. Yeah. And I saw three things, uh, and you're gonna, you're gonna, this fits perfectly with what you do. Number one was lack of a vivid, compelling, and well communicated vision and strategy for growth. Yeah. The senior team might have kind of know where they want to go, but they didn't communicate it down or there was no clear vision or strategy. 'cause it was, there was so much uncertainty, and I see that obviously right now. Mm-hmm. Uh, number two was lack of courageous communications. Mm-hmm. That they, you know, everybody knew there were problems and layoffs were probably coming and, you know, we lost a couple of big clients, but nobody was comfortable putting that out. Uh, they just hoped things would go away. And I'm sure you say this to your clients, hope is not a strategy. Uh, and then the third one, uh, which is still, which is now probably one of the biggest ones, was lack of disciplined execution and accountability. Yes. Uh, and I see this organization, they have a good strategy. They have, well, actually I've been teaching at Wharton, uh, now for about 24 years at a very, very senior level conference for senior executives in the financial industry. My classes normally have about a hundred people in them. Okay? And over, over years, I've asked the same question. What percentage of companies that have a good strategy, have a good plan, have good people, have a good product service, all that stuff, what percentage of them effectively executes their plan? Globally? Globally. Globally? Like are we talking? Well, these are all US based comp, no, they're global company. It would be a US response. Now I think about it. What would it be? A US response? Uh, what would be the US response? The truth? Yeah. Uh, less than we think. Uh, it started off. 20 years ago at about 15%. Mm-hmm. Now it's down to about 8%. These are all senior level executives in major global companies, but they're all the US directors. Like if we get lucky, we'll execute maybe 10% of our strategy. I know. Gone, Jesus. That's like, I was thinking, okay, so in my experience, I, I'm biased and I'm skewed because our approach to strategy is unique because we come with strategy and implementation. So like we walk alongside that organization for a long time, especially from mix, like calibrating the people to the strategy in order to drive performance. So we tend to see better results than that, but I did not think eight, well, don't forget this is good. Ties back exactly what you said. Yeah. These are companies with massive corporate tentacles. Yeah. Unbelievable, unbelievable levels of, of, you know, um, decision making and bureaucracy and red tape. And so it's just they can't get stuff moving. I, I don't know that, you know, I do a lot of work at the Fortune 100 level, but I really enjoy being in companies with 500 employees or less. Uh, because you, people like you and I can make a difference. Mm-hmm. It's hard for me. Like when I worked for Microsoft or Apple, I said I could basically do back flips and light myself on fire and nothing would happen. But if you get to a company with 500 employees, maybe a hundred million dollar company, you can have a huge impact. Yes. You know, because there's not that many, those at that level execute probably 60 or 70%. 60%, yes. Maybe higher. Yes. Um, the good ones are at 70 or 80%. This discrepancy there is one where we can do all the things we just talked about. Yep. You've got operational, simplicity, speed, agility. Things like that, they can move quick, make decisions quick, and with help they can execute very effectively. Mm-hmm. what's the average size company you work with? Oh, I'm all over the place. I, I, I like to play a little bit in startup scale up and enterprise. I learn so much more from my clients than my clients would ever be able to learn from our experience together. I find that, um, startups are more challenging 'cause I find they don't have the stamina. Explain that to me. I don't understand. They need the quick wins. Oh, okay. And so they're always, they over index on pivoting. Yeah, we just, let's go. Yeah. This isn't working, let's go. They're driven by fear, I'm gonna use your words, because they've sunk every single thing into their business, their family, their children's, university educations. And so they're so worried about not making a go out of it. They don't trust themselves mm-hmm. To allow the germination to happen. And now, I, I also get that, you know, we deal in a sense of urgency. So if we're not, if we're not producing high impact, high value, we've gotta go in there and change that right away. So that's kind of my experience with, with startup, with startups, scale-ups understand the value of matching frequency, urgency, rigor with discipline in terms of a process. Mm-hmm. So we under, this is where we're going. We've got freedom within that framework, but by God, two years we're going down this, we're gonna learn a lot, but we're gonna invest in this. And then sort of the enterprise. I find that, you know, I think it's the tipping point when you have, when you come to more than 5,000 employees Yep. A sludge in the corporations are really hard and you're fighting an uphill battle to make any change because it's very a process driven organization. Mm-hmm. And sometimes when you're heavily process driven organization, the process drives the business instead of the business driving the business. Bingo. Bingo. Yeah. So the ones that were low are a hundred thousand employees. Don't want people that I had in that room. Jesus. Jesus. 80, a hundred. 150,000. You can understand why they

would execute that low, because it's literally fif 15, 20, 25 layers of decision makers. Mm-hmm. Snip, snip, snip, snip, snip. Doesn't need it. Doesn't need it. I wanna touch, uh, can we go one layer deeper? Can we go to like the individual and the team? Because I wanna, sure. I wanna pick your brain on this. We know that, we know, we know that, I like to say this, but we know that most teams aren't short on talent. I feel they're just stuck. Mm-hmm. Most teams, they're good people all trying to get to, all, trying to work together, but they're just stuck. So, John, when you walk into a room and you walk into amazing rooms all over the world, when you walk into a room where high performance lags or you see it lagging mm-hmm. What's the first thing you look for? I look for a couple things. A purpose. Do you understand why you're here? Yep. Your team. If you're a high performance team in, in a company, I. You have something important to do here. Mm-hmm. You're, you're one of the small groups that's gonna make a difference. And let's, you know, let's talk mostly about group companies of five thou, 1000 or less. Sure. If you're high performance team in that level, you are doing some really important work. So tying it to the purpose. The other one, and, and you've seen John Kotter's change model a thousand times is a sense I'm a big fan. Yeah. Big fan, yeah. Oh, me too. And I've turned it a little bit in my experience. I think the first and most important thing, and he kind of says this, is creating what I call an irresistible case for change. Yes. Which is you have no option. Like I, I did a podcast earlier today actually about, about ai. And they said, why do you see people resisting it? I go, here's the deal. The CEO and the senior management team needs to say, we're using ai whether you like it or not. Yeah. This will be part of your job. This will be, it is a strategy in the company. Yes. If you, if you don't like the idea of that, this is probably not the right place for you to be. Mm-hmm. Because we are gonna start using it. Mm-hmm. If you close the door like that. People have, have to move in the right direction. That's gotta be tied together though with a vision of the exciting future we can create. It's not just, you can't do this anymore, it's we're move, you know, you can't do this anymore. 'cause we're moving in this really cool direction. We've got a vision for what AI will do for our company. And again, we're balancing it out of, this is still a long-term vision. This isn't a pivot. It's we're gonna use a new technology to focused innovation, come back and do what we do really, really well, but we're gonna do more efficiently, more effectively. Yep. And help people understand that AI isn't here to replace you, it's here to help you. Um, there are, in my opinion, four levels of AI or how it helps you. Level one is data just gives you numbers, data. Uh, the next one is information, and that's where it starts to organize it, like into an Excel spreadsheet or something like that. The next level is knowledge, where it starts to give you answers, ideas, feedback, suggestions. But the last level is wisdom. And only humans could do wisdom work. Yes. So I try to help my clients understand there's a big difference between knowledge work and wisdom work, knowledge work. And, and if you're an employee, we're gonna try to remove everything off your plate. That is information, uh, data or information. Use it to get it to knowledge, and then you take the knowledge and take it to wisdom. I could print out, you and I both do strategy. I could print out using ai, which I do analysis that used to take me a full week. I could do in four hours now and, and unbelievable stuff. Okay. But if I gave that to one of my associates mm-hmm. And said. Here, go run a strategy meeting. No. If they haven't done 50 or a hundred like you had, it's just stuff on a page. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. So it's our experience where I can take it and turn it into not just what is kinda like Charlie taught me, not just what is it, but what can you do with it? And that's the jump from knowledge to wisdom, because we put the emotion in it. What, what, what, what, what it's gonna feel like, what it's gonna look like. Oh, I love it. Love it, love it, love it, love it. Okay. I, I wanna geek out with you a little bit on ai, and then I wanna go. And touch on some lessons from the global stage that you have had. So, um, I love ai. I use it, I use it as a research partner. I use it as the, as a way I talk to it. I tell it exactly what I'm thinking and feeling and we actually have conversations. Mm-hmm. And I love the conversations because the way what I ask it to push me, it pushes me and makes me think really outside of the box. And when I disagree with it, it gives me data to show, to tell me where I'm wrong. Exactly. Yeah. You know, Alison, if you think about it this way and here's this, and by the way, here's this paper. And I'm just like, oh, you're such a smarty pants. But they just made me better. It's a thinking partner at the highest possible level. It is. Do you talk to that? It's telling someone sitting next to you that has access to basically all the information on the face of the earth. Yeah. Uh, and can give you, and like we said, it can give you knowledge. Yeah. A lot of data, information and knowledge. Uh, more than I've ever had. I thought when it first came out, it was gonna impact my business very negatively. I thought, you know, all this stuff I've taken 30 years to learn. You could just ask it questions and it's gonna give you the answers. Yep. But then back to what we learned, I'm the one with the knowledge and the expertise and, and we go back. I'm the one like you, pattern recognition. Yep. I, I've done, you know, a hundred of these. I see the information and the data and the knowledge. Now I, I'm the one that can take it and turn it into something useful.

So I'm a massive fan of ai. It's totally, I could not do my job without it. I couldn't imagine going back and doing my job. The way it was five years ago, and you know that, um, Chachi BT has only been available to the general public since March of last year, 2024. Is that really? That's March 14th, 2024. I, this is, I teach a class on the future of business at Orton. Uh, and I, I went back and asked it and it said when it was first publicly available. Now chat d had been around for years. Years, but when it got out of beta and just, you know, Sue, Bob, Allison, or John could get it. Yep. That was only about a year and a half ago. Incredible. Incredible. I love that. I love that. Can you imagine what it's gonna be like in five or 10 years? I think it's only gonna be better, but I think that the biggest thing is that people, the, the friction is that, uh, people, they're either people that see it as an asset. Or they see it as an antagonist, so it's gonna replace me. But if you use it as a tool, 'cause that's what it, that's what it is. The leveling up that you can do and the output that you can do and the the level of thinking that it will make you, uh, ascribe to you. Some people are like, no, it's gonna replace our jobs and it's gonna replace our thinking. Some it might for efficiency purposes, but where the human element comes in is in that wisdom. But also at the end of the day, it's humans that need to close the knowing, doing gap. Mm-hmm. Exactly. So we, we all know what to do. We all just, some of us don't close the gap and do the things that we need to do. Mm-hmm. But that's where we come in to help close that knowing ga, that knowing, doing gap. And that's what AI helps us as well. We help translate that on our team. Uh, you know, months, a couple of months ago, people were sort of afraid to tell me that you used AI to put stuff together. And I, I said, did you use a I? Yeah. I used ai. I go, great. Yeah, great to learn about it. You wanted to create a custom GPT to speed this up even better. Uh, and you know, let's, you know, like the guy that does, my social media, who's awesome, like, don't sit up all night trying to create a schedule. Just go in and tell it. Act as an expert on LinkedIn, blah, blah, blah. Do this for me. Gimme five schedules. Then you figure out what works best for me and our brand. Yep. But don't waste time on that. So now we have all these custom chat GPTs we've built for our clients and different things we do. We're, we all have access to 'em. I'm like, guys, gals use this stuff. Yeah. It's really, really helpful. Oh, even this, so I, I know that you definitely do. I know because if I do, you certainly do. And way more at a way higher level than me. So I always get little zings from academia, eu, they're the ones that track all the time, every single time that you've been. Uh, uh, named in in, in a publication. In a, in a publication. Mm-hmm. And, uh, sometimes I would over in a month get like 30 publications and I'd have to read all these papers. 'cause I might be cited in one little tiny thing, but I'd have to read everything to be like, oh, I don't know why you did that. Or like, what are you talking about? Why are you using my name Now? I just throw it into my good friend, Chachi PD D and I ask it like, this is what I want, this is what I need you to do. This is sort of my interpretation. This is what I want you to extrapolate. Help me shape a story so that I better understand what are people saying? What are the key takeaways outside of what I said? And it takes, oh, 18, 19 hours of me reading. Mm-hmm. And it it down to four. Yeah, definitely. And I feel so much more smarter. I, I dedicate a minimum of an hour every day, every morning at breakfast reading, uh, industry, Harvard Business Review, Forbes, fortune Inc. And all that stuff. And every now and then I'll pull up an article that's. 20 minute read. Yep. You know, it's a, like from, uh, the Gallup report was 77 pages. Yeah. Distill this. I'm not reading 77 pages. Mm-hmm. I put it in the go. Please give me a high level overview, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It gave me that. And I said, all right, let's look deeper into number three. I'm really interested on that piece of data. Yeah. Let's go deeper now. And I didn't have to read 77 pages. There was a bunch of stuff in there that I was not interested in at all. Yeah. So I do that with all large articles now. I'll load the PDF first and say, gimme an overview what's in this, and I'll look at the overview. I'm not interested in that. Don't waste my time reading that article. Yeah. Or whoa, that's good. Then I'll go read the whole article. I love it. I love it I love it. Let's spend, uh, let's spend a, a little bit of time talking about lessons from your global stage because, oh my God, you have worked with leaders again, like not, not like me. you go the gauntlet from startups all the way to Fortune 100 companies mm-hmm. Around the globe. And if we wanna talk about patterns, what is the one universal truth that you've discovered about leadership? What's that one pattern that you see? What's that one? Universal truth. You have to be a living example of your values. Oh, you know what mine is, what I, I, I, I say this all the time. If I could take a needle in a red thread and just sew us all together. All over the world. All over the world, the one thing that binds us all together is that we wanna feel like we belong. Mm-hmm. Yep. Wanna feel like you belong. Integrity also tell you something true. I do teach a class on self-development. It's not a motivational, inspirational class. It's creating a strategy for your life. Yeah. And one of the things I ask people to do is, very briefly, couple of sentences or shorter, maybe one sentence, what is the purpose of your life? Why are you here? Why, you know, why were you put on the face of the earth? Can I ask you that question of yourself? 'cause you probably asked that for

yourself. Do you know why? Oh, I know exactly what mine is. Tell me. Tell me. 'cause I know why too. Well, mine sell businesses and people be more successful. But here's what I'll tell you. I've had a quarter of a million people go through that class in my life. Oh my God, John, not one. Every single person without exception around the world, has the same basic answer. Mm-hmm. Help other people. Serve other people. Mm-hmm. Make a difference in other people's lives. And I have never ever had anyone say anything that wasn't related to help other people serve other people. So that's there. You want a universal thing too. People wanna belong. Yeah. And part of that is people want to help people, of course. They want to do everything they can to make others' lives better. So when I started to unpack that type of work and the same modality, um, I did that on my, I did that on myself. 'cause of course, I don't take any tool for spend unless I take it on myself first. 'cause I've gotta understand it. But, uh, through that work, I discovered that the reason why I exist, my DNA, uh, the, the little, uh, cosmos that I'm here on this planet is that I am a fulfillment junkie. I am here to seek, to seek and give fulfillment in others. So when others, other people win, oh my, it's, it's like a high, I love it. And so I now, and that's all I do is I chase fulfillment. Well, does that sound like helping other people? Indeed it does. My friend. Indeed it does. I knew you'd get a kick outta that. Yeah, I knew you'd get a kick outta that. Yeah. Let me ask you this. Thank you. I thought it was really cool. And people are like, what does that mean? Have you met me? What in your opinion, do the best organizations, regardless of geography, get right? Culture? Why do you think it's so hard to get right? You can try to design it. But at some level it's amorphous. It's how people believe. It's their assumptions. It's what they think. It's the, I read a Harvard article on great leaders are great storytellers. I'm like, I'm not a storyteller. And I realize almost everything I do is tell stories. And it's the stories and the things about the company and the, the lore that's passed down. So the reason, especially in smaller companies, if you've got a, a company of a 10,000 people and there's 10 or 12 that are really disengaged, it's not a big deal. If you've got a company of a hundred employees or 300 employees. And 10 are disengaged, that's a major part of your workforce. Mm-hmm. So I, I think that in smaller companies, and when I look at the best of the best, it's always around having a culture of engagement culture where people, uh, pursue excellence, where they take pride in the work they do, they take pride in, in, their relationships and what they do larger than the company. Yeah. And it's so easy to see. Alison, I'll go into a meeting, I just did this not too long ago of a senior team of a company. It's about 20 people. And as soon as they're all hugging each other and laughing how you do, and they hadn't seen each other, and they only get together as a full team. It's a global company twice a year. Yeah. And they're hugging. And I also go in other places where people come in, sit down, open their computer and don't talk to anybody. So I know in the first. 30, not 30 seconds, minute, minute and a half, whether they've got a good culture or a toxic culture. Oh, yeah. Because nonverbal cues scream louder than any language you could speak. Yep, yep. Yes, yes. you know, and again, you've had this just an incredible, life that you've designed and the experiences that you've been able to curate, you know, in this career that you have. What's a surprising lesson that you have taken away from, like the global leaders? Oh, from the global leaders? Mm-hmm. The ones that are really good, think long term, they're strategic thinkers. Mm-hmm. And they're reflective. Wow. There's, there's the big thing. They're thoughtful. Mm-hmm. They keep a journal. They reflect, they not only when something goes wrong, do they take the time to dissect it and think about it, but when something goes right, you know, I, I, when I coach executives, oftentimes I'll say, you need to set aside 15 minutes at the end of every day to just sit and think about how the day go. What's going on? Are we on strategy? Are the numbers where we need to be? How did I treat my folks today? Yep. Was I, did I, you know, praise a couple people? Was I my best self when I was in that meeting? And I would say on Fridays or Mondays, you need to take at least 30 minutes to do nothing but think that through. What do you think the answer is from all of, I don't have time. You do have time. It's a choice. Well, I tell them, if you don't have time to do that, uh, then you're doing something wrong in your business. Because as a CEO, you should be, have plenty of time to reflect and think and be strategic and think about how to impact the culture and your customers. Uh, so the best CEOs I've met with are very thoughtful. Mm-hmm. Uh, they care deeply about their people, their long-term thinkers, and they have integrity. They live their values every day. So important, so important, you know, what keeps you learning and considering you're Now we're, we're now into 2025 and we're in our, what, almost fourth month. So now you're into how many books? What are you reading or listening to right now? What keeps you learning? What keeps me learning? I like, I, I mentioned earlier in the podcast, I'm 61 now. Mm-hmm. When I turned 58, I created a phrase. I now realize I know almost nothing about very little and nothing about almost everything else. Amen. Yeah. I have an area of expertise that's tiny. I happen to be very, very, very good in that tiny little area. Everything else, it's just a big, I have no idea. Uh, so the stuff that I'm really focused on right now is Adam Grant's work. Okay. Uh, around, expertise. Mm-hmm. He's got a, a, a great new book called Hidden Potential.

Mm. Unbelievable. And it runs counter to some of the things you would think about what makes someone world class. Yeah. Like one of the biggest takeaways I had about that. He was talking about world class musicians. Yep. He said the difference between the one, they're the same coming up, and then at one thing, one group stalls. Yep. And they never make it above that. The other group continues to go up and up. He said, the difference is the group that stalls says, I have to go practice the group. That stays goes, I get to go practice. Big, huge, huge takeaway. The other thing I learned in that book, that was huge, big takeaway. He said, don't ask for feedback. Ask for advice. If you ask for feedback, people will tell you what they think you did wrong. Yes. Or they'll be very, very polite. But if you ask for advice, yes, they're gonna go as far as they can to help you. Yes. 'cause people wanna be helpful. Yeah. Uh, he said to get a totally different answer. And then one of the other things, I was talking to someone, uh, yesterday about this is he asked for advice, but he only goes to people that he respects and admires in that area. Mm-hmm. So he mentioned professional speaking. If I give a talk, I don't ask everybody to rate me, uh, and give me advice. I go to the speakers that are the best in the world and say, what would you give me on a scale of one to 10 and what, you know, A seven, what advice do you have then to get me to a, an eight or a nine or a 10. Yeah. Better. That's, that's a whole different way to look at things. Mm-hmm. Do you think, though, that, again, we go back to that fear, do you think that some people are afraid to look someone in the eye and say, help me get better? You know, I, I did a TED talk on this years ago. They asked me to teach the most important thing I've ever learned. That's a fairly high, high bar to get over. You're like, where do I start? Yeah. And I learned this from my, one of my college professors. After I'd failed out, I met a college professor who, this, what I'm about to say to you has turned my whole life around. he heard me saying that I had to do better in college. And he said, come to my office afterwards. I'll tell you exactly how to get straight A's in college. I went there. Yep. So he said, there's only three things. Number one, read the books. He said, at least in university, 99% of the answers are in the books. Bring this up to today. All of the answers aren't in the books for you and I, but the information to get to the answers is in books and YouTube videos and podcasts and on and on. So number one was read the books. Number two you said. Ask for help. Yes. Ask everybody in sight for help. Ask the professors, the teaching assistants. Go to the off, you know, the, the career office, ask all the other kids, whatever, and people are afraid to ask for help. When I asked for a lot of help, guess what? I got a lot of help. Yes. And, you know, co And then he, the last one he said is start study groups. Mm-hmm. Uh, so I would stand up at, at class, at the beginning of every semester, go, hi, I'm John. Uh, I really want to do well in this class. Uh, I'm gonna have a study group at my house, Tuesdays, Thursdays nights. We'll, uh, study from seven to 10, then go out and get a beer together. Love it. Anyone's welcome to be in my study group. As long as you have straight A's all you have, as long as you have the, like a, the highest GPA we can get here is a 4.0. Yeah. So if you have a 3.6 or higher, you're in the group. Love it. And nobody asked me my GPA, 'cause I started the group and it eventually went to 4.0, but I love it. We studied together, we went to class together. It started as a group of about 20, then 15, then 12 got down to six of us. Mm-hmm. Six of us studied together, worked together there. We graduated numbers one through six from the university. It's you're grinding away. Yeah. And, and here's why college gave me, I had five people helping me. You read chapters one through 10, you read, you know, six through 11, fast forward. It's basically a mastermind group. Yep. Fast forward today, I still have a mastermind group, a study group of about 15 CEOs. We meet every 45 days. We have book reports, we help each other. We challenge each other. I love it. Uh, so let, I'm gonna boil that all down to the most important thing I've ever learned. Number two is ask for help. Mm-hmm. Uh, don't be afraid, be excited. And because when you ask for help, people want to help you. They really do. You know, it's, and usually if you're fighting or struggling, you don't ask for help. And finally, you come up and ask for help. What do your friends say? What took you so long? That's right. But the most important thing is you become what you focus on and like the people you surround yourself with. Mm-hmm. Whatever you read, whatever you study, whatever you fill your mind with and whoever you choose to spend your time with directly determines your life a decade from now. So true. Period. That's it. Yep. You know, dead stop. Yep. Yep. 'cause we are the architects of our own lives. Absolutely. Everything. Everything is a choice. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Always. So good. So good. Okay. What's coming next in your work or in your thinking? What, uh, what's next on the John Spence world? Well, I, I've been working, I'm using AI good to help me create new frameworks, like the new strategy framework. It's very similar to the one I've been teaching for 25 years. Yeah. It's just purpose driven wasn't quite in mine and a few other things. My old framework was talent plus culture, plus extreme customer focus, multiplied by discipline, execution. Yep. All of that is in the new framework. Yep. Just a little bit more sophisticated. Yep. So I'm building new frameworks. Uh, I put that stake in the ground around love and empathy and care and concern as a leader. Mm-hmm. Uh, and really focused on the people first, type of leadership.

Mm-hmm. And other than that, I'm still enjoying doing major speeches. I've got a speech next week to 5,000 people. Uh, largest group I've ever spoken to is 26,000. Ah. Oh my God. You know, for those that are listening, I still get nervous when I talk to 10 people. Yes. I did a, little talk the other, day I think there was 18 college students. I'm sweating, I'm shaking. I got dry mouth. It's just as scary for me, you know? Mm-hmm. I'm highly introverted. Being in front of people is scary for me. 18 people, or literally 18,000. Yes. I still get nervous at both, so I have to go pee all the time before I go on stage. I'm like, oh my God. Can you just wait a minute? I think I have to go pee. Okay. No, I'm fine. Oh my God. I think, okay. Okay, I'm ready. I'm ready. I'm not ready. Please go to the bathroom. The worst is when you're in the middle of a giant all day workshop and you're like, I, I gotta go to the bathroom. So all I do is go, Hey, why don't we take, uh, let's do a short workshop to write this down. We'll take about 15 minutes to do this individual workshop or group workshop, and everybody looks down at the workshop and I run, and I run back. Like, I, I haven't been anywhere. magic, he just reappeared on the, on the stage. yeah, there's, I just, you know, so many people are afraid of public speaking. I wanna let them know that some of us that do it for a living Yeah, we're scared of it too. It's hard. Yeah. Yes. You know, I think you know this, when you get to the point that you're not nervous or scared, that means you don't care anymore. Yeah. And you should. Something stuck with me, and this is years and years and years ago. Um, and I forget who wrote about it afterwards, but there was a study, and I'll have to find the study. There was a study that was written around the difference between, feelings of excitement and being scared. And it was birthed out of an Olympics, a Winter Olympics, and all the reporters kept on going up to all the athletes saying, are you scared? Are you scared? Are you scared? Are you nervous? Right. You're, this is the biggest moment of your life and the pattern of response. It was always, no, we're trained to be excited. I'm not nervous, I'm excited. And even though that, that you're nervous and excitement, it, it ha everything that happens when you're nervous and excitement in your body, it's exactly the same thing. Mm-hmm. But it's training your brain to see it for what it is. Are you really afraid or are you excited? Yeah. And how you, when I give measure speeches, I'm not nervous, I'm not afraid. I'm excited for the opportunity to share and help people. Yes. You know, one of the things I do, I'll look out from behind the curtain and look out and go, I'm just gonna give these people as much love as I humanly can. I'm gonna try as hard as I possibly can to help them. Mm-hmm. I'm not gonna waste a minute of their time. And I'm shaking and nerve shaking and sweating stuff, but it's not nerves, it's just excitement of, let me go, help, you know, I wanna make sure I do a good job and help as many people as possible. Yes. So and I think that's a beautiful anchor, which is when you go to speak, whether or not it's into an audience of one or to a hundred thousand, to really look at, are you afraid like mortal death or are you really excited because you just wanna do a really good job? Yep. And if that's what it really is, then to live in that and enjoy that feeling. I love it. I love it. Oh my God. And that, my fabulous friends is John Spence. I can't believe I just spent an hour with you. This is a dream come true. Oh, stop it. Thank you fan girl moment. Oh, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I'm gonna have you back. I'll come back anytime you want. Yes. Oh, good. Oh good. Oh good. Oh, , you know, listen to your customer. If nobody listens to this five likes, you know, maybe you and I might enjoy this, but maybe people listen now. I'm sure we gave a lot of good nuggets today, both of us. We did. Thank you so much for today. I is such a privilege. Such a privilege. Thank you. It's my honor. Thank you.