התמלול המלא של Between Two Fires by Christopher Buehlman

00:05:31.120 --> 00:05:32.719 What then said the wicked angel? 00:05:33.120 --> 00:05:36.639 With a great plague, answered Lucifer, and so it was. 00:05:36.800 --> 00:05:42.879 And the years that had passed since the Lord had come to be born among men were 1,348. 00:05:43.759 --> 00:05:52.959 So that's a fairly long way to say that this book is set in the bubonic plague era, with the backdrop of spiritual warfare going on between angels and demons. 00:05:53.120 --> 00:06:06.560 And the story primarily centers around three people a disgraced knight named Tomas, a mysterious young girl who speaks to angels and performs miracles named Delphine, and a compromised priest that they meet along the way. 00:06:06.959 --> 00:06:07.919 Named Matthew. 00:06:08.159 --> 00:06:08.639 Yes. 00:06:08.959 --> 00:06:22.240 And they go on a spiritual pilgrimage ultimately to Avignon en France and all the things that happen along the way as they sort of follow this young girl and learn to put their faith in her. 00:06:22.479 --> 00:06:22.800 Right. 00:06:22.959 --> 00:06:29.680 Okay, so we're gonna go into our copile right now and go through some of our spoiler-free things. 00:06:29.839 --> 00:06:33.279 And you just mentioned the three main characters, and we start with characters. 00:06:33.439 --> 00:06:34.159 I love this. 00:06:34.240 --> 00:06:41.680 It feels very Canterbury Tales meets Dante's Inferno, and I say that because of the plague aspect. 00:06:41.839 --> 00:06:49.839 There is this pilgrimage going on, and Tomas is good and then very, very flawed. 00:06:50.000 --> 00:06:53.759 And he was a knight, and now he's not a knight anymore. 00:06:54.000 --> 00:07:03.919 And I love him as a character because he's very vulnerable, he's sometimes childish, but at his heart, still noble in what he wants to do. 00:07:04.079 --> 00:07:05.279 And so I love Tomas. 00:07:05.359 --> 00:07:08.079 I love Delphine, she is a mysterious character. 00:07:08.159 --> 00:07:11.759 She's like a, I don't know, very ambiguous character. 00:07:11.919 --> 00:07:18.159 We can't quite define her for a long time, and then pieces start falling into place. 00:07:18.240 --> 00:07:20.000 So it's very mysterious in that way. 00:07:20.159 --> 00:07:35.279 And then my favorite character in a lot of ways was Matthew, the priest, because he represented the church on this pilgrimage, but he knew himself to be what the church would consider a sinner. 00:07:35.439 --> 00:07:45.199 He knew himself to be very fallible, and it is just a real journey for him to recognize and see himself, as well as the journey for Tomas and Delphine. 00:07:45.359 --> 00:07:47.680 So I really loved all three of the main characters. 00:07:47.839 --> 00:07:51.839 Of course, there are other characters, but those are really the ones that you become attached to. 00:07:52.159 --> 00:07:52.399 Right. 00:07:52.479 --> 00:07:52.719 Yeah. 00:07:53.120 --> 00:07:55.359 And they represent three different aspects of faith. 00:07:55.599 --> 00:07:59.359 Tomas is deeply disillusioned with his faith and with mankind in general. 00:07:59.519 --> 00:07:59.680 Right. 00:07:59.919 --> 00:08:02.800 Delphine is clearly all about her faith. 00:08:02.879 --> 00:08:08.319 I mean, she is in touch with angels themselves and she just believes with her whole heart. 00:08:08.560 --> 00:08:17.120 And then there's Matthew, who represents the best intentions of a person with faith, yet deeply flawed in many ways. 00:08:17.279 --> 00:08:17.519 Right. 00:08:17.759 --> 00:08:21.519 And I thought that was an interesting balance of caricature in this story. 00:08:21.680 --> 00:08:27.279 And they are the three main characters, which therefore they're the three developed characters in the story. 00:08:27.599 --> 00:08:27.839 Right. 00:08:27.919 --> 00:08:37.519 And I feel like in a lot of ways, and I know I get like this a lot, I got like this with Lord of the Flies, and there are a lot of times where I'm looking for these biblical illusions because they're so prevalent in literature. 00:08:37.759 --> 00:08:39.759 But I feel like it's very Trinitarian. 00:08:39.919 --> 00:08:50.159 And if I were going to make it very Trinitarian, you know, I would clearly put Tomas kind of in a father state, and then we'll go on from there. 00:08:50.320 --> 00:08:52.639 But I I feel like there's a Trinitarian thing going on. 00:08:52.960 --> 00:08:55.680 Yeah, I think you might be right with that intentionally, yeah. 00:08:55.759 --> 00:08:58.000 So atmosphere-wise, oh my God. 00:08:58.480 --> 00:09:04.159 Uh he does so well with creating the atmosphere in this, it really could make you sick to your stomach. 00:09:04.320 --> 00:09:04.399 Right. 00:09:04.720 --> 00:09:06.000 I mean, the historical details. 00:09:06.240 --> 00:09:06.480 Yeah. 00:09:06.639 --> 00:09:09.440 I'm a history person, and so I mean, it was spot on. 00:09:09.519 --> 00:09:15.519 I always worry when a book's gonna go into historical fiction that it's going to just mess it up. 00:09:15.759 --> 00:09:17.360 And he knew his stuff. 00:09:17.519 --> 00:09:24.639 This is very medieval, it's very much the plague, and then it has all the historical characters in it too. 00:09:24.879 --> 00:09:32.160 And it manages to include all of those details without becoming bland, without feeling like he's showing off his historical knowledge. 00:09:32.560 --> 00:09:33.920 Yeah, it's not verbose in that way. 00:09:34.480 --> 00:09:37.200 Accurate to the the horror of the plague. 00:09:37.440 --> 00:09:37.680 Right. 00:09:37.920 --> 00:09:40.480 And then therefore, the writing I thought I love the writing. 00:09:40.560 --> 00:09:42.160 It it felt so poetic. 00:09:42.320 --> 00:09:43.520 It was just so beautiful. 00:09:43.680 --> 00:09:51.680 I mean, even that little part that I read in the beginning, I just thought that that was so it was poetry, you know, and the Lord made no answer, and the Lord still made no answer. 00:09:51.759 --> 00:09:53.360 I mean, it just

reminded me of poetry. 00:09:53.600 --> 00:09:53.759 Right. 00:09:53.840 --> 00:09:55.040 Well, he is a poet as well. 00:09:55.200 --> 00:09:56.639 Christopher Buhlman is. 00:09:56.879 --> 00:10:00.000 So he does definitely have that poetic sense. 00:10:00.160 --> 00:10:07.520 And I'm with you, you know, sometimes things can become very burdensome if someone gets too poetic, if someone gets too historical. 00:10:07.759 --> 00:10:09.759 This is such a beautiful blend. 00:10:09.920 --> 00:10:23.360 Now, in fairness, the first part of the book I felt like I was plodding along, but I kind of felt like that's the way you were supposed to feel as they were starting their journey, and they really had no sense of purpose. 00:10:23.520 --> 00:10:28.080 And so there were times where I felt very much like, oh my goodness, like this is painful. 00:10:28.240 --> 00:10:32.080 Like all the things they're going through, and it kind of went on this slower pace. 00:10:32.240 --> 00:10:40.960 And then the last half of the book, it just picked up and flew forward with all the things that were happening and kind of all the climactic moments and everything else. 00:10:41.120 --> 00:10:44.160 And that is not a criticism negatively of the book. 00:10:44.240 --> 00:10:48.320 It's just it really takes you on that journey as a reader. 00:10:48.480 --> 00:10:51.600 And so I wasn't sure if I'd like it at first, and then I was like sold. 00:10:51.920 --> 00:10:53.360 I think that's very intentional. 00:10:53.440 --> 00:10:56.320 It's one of the main themes of this book, journey before destination. 00:10:56.400 --> 00:10:56.639 Uh-huh. 00:10:56.800 --> 00:10:58.240 And I think we'll discuss that later on. 00:10:58.320 --> 00:11:00.400 But this book is all about the journey. 00:11:00.560 --> 00:11:07.200 And so I I really believe it had to feel that way for us to develop along with the characters and change as they change. 00:11:07.360 --> 00:11:13.520 Uh, plot-wise, oh boy, this plot is so intricate and gets better and better and better. 00:11:13.600 --> 00:11:16.080 Like you say, at first we're like, okay, what's going on here? 00:11:16.320 --> 00:11:17.200 Yeah, what's happening? 00:11:17.440 --> 00:11:27.200 But the further they they take this journey in faith, the more they begin to put their faith in Delphine, the more things begin to happen. 00:11:27.360 --> 00:11:27.520 Right. 00:11:27.840 --> 00:11:29.200 The faster things begin to happen. 00:11:29.360 --> 00:11:35.120 It's their resistance at first that slows down their progress. 00:11:35.440 --> 00:11:39.520 And Delphine's growth is in tandem with that, right? 00:11:39.680 --> 00:11:39.840 Yes. 00:11:40.000 --> 00:11:44.960 So Delphine has to grow and then they have to put their trust in her on some level. 00:11:45.120 --> 00:11:47.280 And so it's like this dual thing going on. 00:11:47.360 --> 00:11:58.080 And I think he does a beautiful job of marrying all these different elements in these characters and these plot

lines, both the fantasy horror with the historical. 00:11:58.240 --> 00:12:01.120 And the plot just is is well conceived. 00:12:01.280 --> 00:12:03.920 He had to have mapped that out all over the wall or something. 00:12:04.000 --> 00:12:05.759 I mean, it is very complex. 00:12:06.080 --> 00:12:18.000 And intrigue, the intrigue comes from okay, what is the demon's agenda here on Earth with man and the machinations that they are putting into play to basically torment and deceive mankind in the midst of this horrible plague? 00:12:18.160 --> 00:12:22.879 And also Delphine, what is her relationship in all of this? 00:12:23.040 --> 00:12:29.520 At times she seems to be taken over by another person, and it's like, what's going on there? 00:12:29.680 --> 00:12:31.200 Where is her power coming from? 00:12:31.360 --> 00:12:32.000 Why her? 00:12:32.160 --> 00:12:33.840 Why has she been chosen for this? 00:12:34.080 --> 00:12:34.400 Right. 00:12:34.560 --> 00:12:41.600 And then also Tomas' background and the horrible things that happen to him that get revealed very slowly. 00:12:41.680 --> 00:12:49.520 And there is definitely an intrigue related to who he is, who he will become, you know, what his journey is all about. 00:12:49.680 --> 00:12:51.920 And so I feel like he's a very mysterious character. 00:12:52.080 --> 00:12:56.320 And Mathew is kind of hanging out there in a lot of ways. 00:12:56.480 --> 00:13:02.879 People are constantly airing his dirty laundry, and he's very vulnerable the entire journey. 00:13:02.960 --> 00:13:06.960 But there is an element of intrigue with him as well to really know who he is as a person. 00:13:07.200 --> 00:13:13.840 So it really is an intrigue of character discovery and then coming upon that ultimate spiritual conflict. 00:13:14.160 --> 00:13:14.639 Logic. 00:13:14.800 --> 00:13:18.879 I this, okay, so obviously we're dealing with supernatural elements. 00:13:19.040 --> 00:13:21.759 Okay, so that throws logic out the window in certain circumstances. 00:13:21.920 --> 00:13:26.480 However, I think the logic really comes into play with the pace of the journey. 00:13:26.720 --> 00:13:29.360 Did we move too fast from one place to another? 00:13:29.520 --> 00:13:34.000 Did we go from doubt to faith too quickly and unbelievably? 00:13:34.160 --> 00:13:41.440 And I feel like there was just enough pushback from Tomas and even Matthew uh to make that feel logical to me. 00:13:41.600 --> 00:13:42.960 Like they they really do struggle. 00:13:43.040 --> 00:13:44.320 They push back very often. 00:13:44.400 --> 00:13:51.840 And even when they see certain things, it changes them only so much until they see more and more and more, and then they cannot deny. 00:13:51.920 --> 00:13:54.960 And so I do think he felt he followed a logical progression. 00:13:55.200 --> 00:13:55.440 Right. 00:13:55.600 --> 00:13:56.960 I think that is very, very true. 00:13:57.040 --> 00:14:00.960 Now, that is not to say there won't be times in this book when you're like, what the hell is happening? 00:14:01.120 --> 00:14:05.520 Sometimes literally, and you'll be wondering like, how is this and what? 00:14:05.600 --> 00:14:06.879 And are they dreaming? 00:14:07.040 --> 00:14:09.200 Like, or is this like a real thing that's happening? 00:14:09.440 --> 00:14:18.639 So there are those moments because that's what you're dealing with when you're dealing with the magical realism slash fantasy elements in this story, but it is very human. 00:14:18.720 --> 00:14:23.680 And in that way, the progression of these characters is beautifully realistic and logical. 00:14:23.920 --> 00:14:24.960 And I enjoyed it very much. 00:14:25.200 --> 00:14:28.080 Yeah, the enjoyment part right there at the end, I did. 00:14:28.160 --> 00:14:38.800 Like I enjoyed this so much that I immediately went to school and in my department, I looked at one of my um colleagues that I know loves this type of literature, and I was like, you have to read this. 00:14:38.960 --> 00:14:40.879 You have to read this so we can discuss it. 00:14:41.040 --> 00:14:45.040 And he's already read it and we have been discussing it because it is such a good book. 00:14:45.120 --> 00:14:46.960 So, yes, enjoyment was there 100%. 00:14:47.440 --> 00:14:59.759 And without spoiling the ending, you know, this would be one of those books that you might feel trepidatious about reading because it just sounds so dark and heavy, and ultimately you fear it's just gonna be so tragic, and you're just gonna be left with this feeling of, ugh. 00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:01.280 And I was not left with that feeling. 00:15:01.440 --> 00:15:04.800 I left, I left with great inner peace over the ending. 00:15:05.040 --> 00:15:05.280 Right. 00:15:05.440 --> 00:15:05.840 I agree. 00:15:06.000 --> 00:15:18.080 So if you're worried at all, you've seen the cover of this book, you've read the name, you've seen the medieval horror thing, and you're worried at all about being left with that icky feeling that Peter is talking about, don't worry about that. 00:15:18.240 --> 00:15:25.680 There's certainly going to be very disturbing moments in this book, but I think you'll be happy with the ending too. 00:15:25.920 --> 00:15:29.759 And for those people who don't like to be scared by what they read, did you feel like this book was scary? 00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:31.280 No, I never had that moment. 00:15:31.360 --> 00:15:38.960 I mean, it was scary, but in a spiritual human sense, not in a gratuitous, like I was gonna jump out of my seat sense. 00:15:39.040 --> 00:15:44.000 I mean, I listened to this as I was driving around doing Amazon Flex in the dark, and I wasn't feeling scared. 00:15:44.080 --> 00:15:46.160 And you know I'm a scaredy cat when it comes to that stuff. 00:15:46.320 --> 00:15:46.560 Right. 00:15:46.639 --> 00:15:46.879 Yeah. 00:15:47.040 --> 00:15:47.200 Yeah. 00:15:47.360 --> 00:15:48.160 So it's good. 00:15:48.320 --> 00:15:48.639 Yeah. 00:15:48.720 --> 00:15:50.080 So you

can you can do this. 00:15:50.240 --> 00:15:50.560 All right. 00:15:50.639 --> 00:15:54.240 On that note, we are going to leave our spoiler-free section. 00:15:54.320 --> 00:15:56.080 We have so much to talk about. 00:15:56.240 --> 00:15:58.560 So we will catch you on the flip side. 00:16:13.120 --> 00:16:14.639 Okay, quick pause. 00:16:14.720 --> 00:16:20.320 Because if you're still listening, you clearly have excellent taste or questionable judgment. 00:16:20.560 --> 00:16:22.480 Either way, we've got something for you. 00:16:22.720 --> 00:16:23.120 That's right. 00:16:23.280 --> 00:16:25.360 Lit on fire merch is officially live. 00:16:25.520 --> 00:16:27.920 You can now wear your literary chaos proudly. 00:16:28.160 --> 00:16:34.720 We're talking bold designs, rebellious slogans, and just enough intellectual menace to make people nervous in public. 00:16:35.040 --> 00:16:36.879 Hoodies, teas, all of it. 00:16:37.040 --> 00:16:40.160 Perfect for reading banned books or starting arguments at brunch. 00:16:40.400 --> 00:16:50.400 So go grab yours at Litonfire Podcast-shop.forthwall.com because if you're going to burn it all down, you might as well look good doing it. 00:16:50.480 --> 00:16:52.160 Lit on fire. 00:16:54.000 --> 00:16:54.800 All right, Peter. 00:16:54.960 --> 00:17:02.639 So the two of us reading this book feels a little like a joke, like a Buddhist, a pagan, and a Christian walked into a bar or went on a trip together. 00:17:02.800 --> 00:17:06.240 So I think we need to address some of the spiritual aspects of this. 00:17:06.400 --> 00:17:08.960 I'm gonna kick it over to you to talk about that a little bit. 00:17:09.359 --> 00:17:17.200 Yeah, I think I think we have to get a little personal in this episode in order to really dive deep into the themes of this book and the messages that we got out of it. 00:17:17.359 --> 00:17:30.720 Without this being an attack on Christianity, right, in any way, shape, or form, I really feel like my journey to deconstruct my Christian faith and the message of this book really correlate with one another well. 00:17:30.879 --> 00:17:36.559 And in order to get into that message, I I'll just tell you as briefly as possible how I deconstructed my faith. 00:17:36.720 --> 00:17:45.519 So as a Christian, I became a Christian primarily because of the teachings of Jesus and the works of Jesus spoke to me. 00:17:45.680 --> 00:17:55.199 And so throughout my young adulthood to adulthood and my studying of the Bible, I always read the Bible through the lens of Jesus' teaching. 00:17:55.359 --> 00:17:55.679 Right. 00:17:56.000 --> 00:18:02.319 So my understanding of the old covenant was always seen through the eyes of the new covenant. 00:18:02.480 --> 00:18:02.799 Right. 00:18:03.039 --> 00:18:10.639 And that is how I lived my faith out and the values that formed who I am were formed through Jesus' teachings. 00:18:10.799 --> 00:18:20.639 And so it wasn't until later on in life when I began to see that there were many people who called themselves Christians who seemed to do it the opposite way. 00:18:20.799 --> 00:18:21.039 Right. 00:18:21.279 --> 00:18:25.039 And they would interpret the new covenant through the lens of the old covenant. 00:18:25.519 --> 00:18:30.240 And that allowed them to support their conservative ideals and their conservative values. 00:18:30.559 --> 00:18:33.279 Or they're just personal agendas, conservative or not. 00:18:33.439 --> 00:18:36.000 It was very self, it could be very self-serving. 00:18:36.319 --> 00:18:57.519 And I saw that not only did a lot of Christians fall under that umbrella, but the church itself as an organization seemed to embrace that attitude and that mindset, both politically and spiritually, towards the Bible, which caused me to then step back and drop that lens that I always saw the Bible through, that that apologetics lens that I always read the Old Testament through. 00:18:57.599 --> 00:19:08.480 And apologetics, if you do not know that word, is the term used to describe the theological defense of certain parts of Scripture or dogma of your faith. 00:19:08.639 --> 00:19:09.279 Uh that are challenged. 00:19:09.439 --> 00:19:09.519 Yes. 00:19:09.759 --> 00:19:16.480 The theological explanations to basically explain certain parts of scripture that are complicated or problematic, some might say, and certain dogmas. 00:19:16.799 --> 00:19:33.279 And as I dropped that lens and just started reading the Old Testament or Old Covenant on its own merit, I saw in in no way, shape, or form could the teachings of Jesus and the teachings of Judaism be blended. 00:19:33.439 --> 00:19:36.399 Yes, be uh compatible with one another. 00:19:36.559 --> 00:19:39.039 In no way, shape, or form could they be compatible. 00:19:39.119 --> 00:19:43.679 And when I started looking at the data instead of the dogma, it all started falling apart. 00:19:43.839 --> 00:19:59.519 And so then I was left with the teachings of Jesus, the red letter parts of the Bible, and those values, and that slowly started to draw me towards another spirituality, and that was Buddhism, because I felt like it lines so much more up with the teachings of Jesus than Judaism does. 00:19:59.679 --> 00:20:02.319 And so that's kind of how I made that transition. 00:20:02.559 --> 00:20:02.879 Yeah. 00:20:03.119 --> 00:20:10.960 And without going into the same details necessarily, I deconstructed in a very similar way for very similar reasons. 00:20:11.199 --> 00:20:22.000 And it was really that kind of duplicity, the hypocrisy, and then looking and breaking down what that really looks like and what people value and how that plays out. 00:20:22.159 --> 00:20:29.439 And I just really struggled to reconcile Christianity, the teachings of Jesus, the way the church acted everything out. 00:20:29.519 --> 00:20:31.599 So yes, the deconstruction was very similar. 00:20:31.759 --> 00:20:36.879 I landed with paganism basically because it takes us all the way back to our

roots. 00:20:37.039 --> 00:20:43.759 And I felt like we came to a point as human beings where we began to divide and parse out religion. 00:20:44.000 --> 00:20:53.439 And it wasn't about just goodness and the things that we should be doing or the things that were right to interact with the earth and with man. 00:20:53.599 --> 00:21:06.159 I feel like it became so much human agenda woven into religion, and we divided it up so much that I wonder if religion is not a vast sea, or if faith is not a vast sea. 00:21:06.319 --> 00:21:08.079 And religion is a contaminant. 00:21:08.240 --> 00:21:12.240 Religion is this effort to try to contain the sea, and it's not that. 00:21:12.399 --> 00:21:26.079 And so I have to go all the way back to the roots, which are just the simple interaction with nature and the universe and our relationship with one another and with our environment and with what's around us. 00:21:26.240 --> 00:21:28.480 And so that's where I end up landing. 00:21:28.639 --> 00:21:38.480 But that whole parsing out of trying to put the sea in a bunch of different glasses, which is a semi-allusion to Glenn and Doyle's memoir that she wrote, but I just can't do that. 00:21:38.720 --> 00:21:39.599 Yeah, I agree. 00:21:39.679 --> 00:21:43.519 And I don't see Buddhism as a religion, I see it as a philosophy. 00:21:43.759 --> 00:21:44.000 Right. 00:21:44.079 --> 00:21:48.879 And I see paganism very much in the same way because you don't have to act in one particular way. 00:21:48.960 --> 00:21:52.960 To be pagan is simply not to be part of any of the major world religions. 00:21:53.279 --> 00:21:53.519 Right. 00:21:53.679 --> 00:22:03.039 And and spiritually speaking, I think it is one of the only paths of spirituality that specifically seeks to empower women in a spiritual way. 00:22:03.359 --> 00:22:04.559 Clearly, I'm drawn to that. 00:22:04.879 --> 00:22:10.799 But the reason why we we bring this up is because Christopher Buellman is a self-identified agnostic. 00:22:10.960 --> 00:22:13.759 He calls himself a red letter believer. 00:22:14.000 --> 00:22:19.039 And he also has made statements of how he believes that the teachings of Jesus blend well with Buddhism. 00:22:19.359 --> 00:22:21.039 And so that really resonated with me. 00:22:21.119 --> 00:22:28.799 And the reason why I think that is and how it correlates with the book is because I think one of the main messages of this book is about action. 00:22:28.960 --> 00:22:29.199 Right. 00:22:29.359 --> 00:22:31.759 That that faith is not passive. 00:22:31.919 --> 00:22:32.240 Right. 00:22:32.480 --> 00:22:35.039 That God shows up in you. 00:22:35.199 --> 00:22:42.799 And it's as they take this journey, the more they take steps in faith, the more Delphine specifically, her power grows. 00:22:43.039 --> 00:22:49.439 And when they take faith in that relationship and they interact with people around them and they exercise goodness. 00:22:50.240 --> 00:22:51.759 All of those things kind of play out.

00:22:51.839 --> 00:22:57.359 And so that very much gels with that idea of Buddhism and doing the most good in those moments. 00:22:57.759 --> 00:22:59.919 Buddhism is all about mindful living. 00:23:00.079 --> 00:23:02.639 It is not about passively doing good. 00:23:02.799 --> 00:23:06.879 It is about examining yourself in every aspect possible. 00:23:07.039 --> 00:23:13.199 Your thoughts, your intentions, your words, your action, what you do for a living, who you keep company with. 00:23:13.359 --> 00:23:22.000 All of those things are constantly examined because all of those things have an effect on your life and on the world around you, like a butterfly effect in a sense. 00:23:22.079 --> 00:23:22.879 That's what karma is. 00:23:23.039 --> 00:23:25.279 Karma is essentially a spiritual butterfly effect. 00:23:25.519 --> 00:23:25.679 Right. 00:23:25.759 --> 00:23:27.599 And so why are we so caught up on this? 00:23:27.679 --> 00:23:41.119 It's really because this feels like at different points, if you simply looked at it on the surface, that we're on this Christian journey of sorts and we end with this Christian ending in a lot of ways, which we will not talk about right this moment. 00:23:41.439 --> 00:23:42.960 But it can feel like that. 00:23:43.119 --> 00:23:51.199 And so I want to be clear about kind of where Christopher Buellman is going with this kind of philosophical theological approach. 00:23:51.359 --> 00:23:53.039 And I think that's essential to the book. 00:23:53.279 --> 00:23:53.359 Right. 00:23:53.439 --> 00:23:56.559 I see when I read this, I expected medieval horror. 00:23:56.720 --> 00:23:56.960 Right. 00:23:57.119 --> 00:23:58.720 And I got Pilgrim's Progress. 00:23:58.960 --> 00:23:59.279 Right. 00:24:00.000 --> 00:24:01.039 And you don't know what that is. 00:24:01.119 --> 00:24:03.599 That's a Christian allegory, but you know, we digress. 00:24:03.839 --> 00:24:10.399 So I I think that was very that that is very crucial to this book, is that they're they're waiting for God to show up and save them. 00:24:10.480 --> 00:24:21.359 They're waiting for divine intervention, and it does not come until the human element, which is Delphine, Thomas, and Matthew, step out in faith and take this journey. 00:24:21.599 --> 00:24:22.000 Right. 00:24:22.240 --> 00:24:24.879 So this is not a, you know, God swoops down. 00:24:24.960 --> 00:24:29.119 It's like the Ducex Machina, like God swoops down and he fixes everything. 00:24:29.279 --> 00:24:30.399 That's not how this works. 00:24:30.480 --> 00:24:32.559 And Christopher Buhmann makes that very clear. 00:24:32.720 --> 00:24:44.639 So when we talk this idea of taking action in the world, taking action for good, one of the things we have to discuss right away is how Tomas and Delphine really come together. 00:24:44.720 --> 00:24:50.559 And it is in a lot of ways against Tomas' will and somewhat accidental at the same time. 00:24:50.879 --> 00:25:00.720 So she is a young girl in this plague-ravaged area, and her father, her family has died, clearly, and she's left there all alone. 00:25:00.799 --> 00:25:22.240 Somehow she has survived, and she comes across Tomas and this crew of bandits, mercenaries, scavengers, brigands, brigands, who are eating her donkey, and which is very interesting symbolically, but they're eating her donkey, and she's like, You're eating my friend, basically. 00:25:22.399 --> 00:25:25.439 This is this is my only other living companion here. 00:25:25.759 --> 00:25:29.919 And as one would expect, some of these men are ill-intentioned. 00:25:30.079 --> 00:25:35.519 They see this young girl, and she is a girl, and she is a potential object of lust. 00:25:35.679 --> 00:25:42.399 And Tomas stands out right away because he is the one man that cannot stomach that type of action. 00:25:42.559 --> 00:25:50.720 One of the things I notice about Tomas is he has the streak of nobility, honor, maybe even the heroic. 00:25:50.879 --> 00:25:53.039 But in this moment, he's very reactionary. 00:25:53.119 --> 00:25:58.159 And he does end up quote unquote saving her, but it's not really intentional action. 00:25:58.319 --> 00:25:58.559 Right. 00:25:58.720 --> 00:26:02.000 And then after that, he it wants to be done with her. 00:26:02.240 --> 00:26:02.559 Right. 00:26:02.720 --> 00:26:03.119 Absolutely. 00:26:03.279 --> 00:26:04.000 Like, go away. 00:26:04.079 --> 00:26:07.199 I have saved you, but now you can go about your business. 00:26:07.519 --> 00:26:12.559 But the angel tells the girl that she has to go with Tomas, and he's like, Oh, great, she's crazy too. 00:26:12.720 --> 00:26:15.439 And she insists, and he sort of gets saddled with her. 00:26:15.679 --> 00:26:16.159 Right. 00:26:16.399 --> 00:26:24.559 And he is going his own way, and he intends to leave her with the first stable family that he finds in the next town. 00:26:24.799 --> 00:26:24.960 Yeah. 00:26:25.039 --> 00:26:26.799 And it doesn't quite go that way. 00:26:27.119 --> 00:26:35.919 No, she is a permanent picture in his life from this point forward, but she's definitely holding on with both hands, both arms, both feet and legs. 00:26:36.079 --> 00:26:38.159 She's she's firmly entwined around him. 00:26:38.240 --> 00:26:39.439 She refuses to let him go. 00:26:39.679 --> 00:26:42.639 And she definitely gets a little angelic help in doing that. 00:26:42.879 --> 00:26:43.279 Correct. 00:26:43.519 --> 00:26:52.799 So they go on this unintentional journey with one another, and they come across this small village where they seek shelter with one of the local priests, which is Matthew. 00:26:53.119 --> 00:26:53.439 Matthew. 00:26:53.679 --> 00:26:54.000 Matthew. 00:26:54.240 --> 00:26:54.559 Matthew. 00:26:54.799 --> 00:26:55.119 Matthew. 00:26:55.359 --> 00:26:55.839 Sounds like okay. 00:26:55.919 --> 00:26:56.480 It's very French. 00:26:57.599 --> 00:26:57.679 Yeah. 00:26:57.839 --> 00:26:58.159 Matthew. 00:26:58.240 --> 00:26:59.039 They come across

Matthew. 00:26:59.359 --> 00:27:00.480 Yes, we'll just go with that. 00:27:00.720 --> 00:27:02.639 And this is this compromise priest. 00:27:02.720 --> 00:27:03.919 He's clearly an alcoholic. 00:27:04.079 --> 00:27:04.319 Yes. 00:27:04.559 --> 00:27:06.720 But he's definitely a man of faith. 00:27:06.879 --> 00:27:13.199 He definitely is still doing good in the midst of everyone else abandoning all these people, the flock. 00:27:13.519 --> 00:27:17.039 All of his superiors have either died or hidden themselves away. 00:27:17.199 --> 00:27:20.159 Anyone with any kind of power has sort of abandoned the whole village. 00:27:20.240 --> 00:27:25.279 And he's the only one still sort of there to offer mass and last rites, and he's doing his very best. 00:27:25.439 --> 00:27:35.199 And he takes them in for the night, and then he tells them the story about this strange river monster that everybody's afraid of that is just eating people alive like whole, just like biting them in two. 00:27:35.279 --> 00:27:44.000 And it's this outrageous story, but no one's been brave enough to actually go and slay this monster and free the townsfolk from the fear that this monster has brought upon them. 00:27:44.159 --> 00:27:50.319 And so Tomas agrees that in the morning he will head out and he will attempt to slay this monster. 00:27:50.480 --> 00:27:54.079 Well, unwillingly initially, because he has no desire to do this. 00:27:54.240 --> 00:28:03.359 And then he finally decides, no, I actually have to take intentional action, which one wonders how much influence Delphine is already having on him at that point. 00:28:03.679 --> 00:28:13.439 But the fact that he feels motivated to step forth and do this is really intentionally significant in this particular moment in the book. 00:28:13.599 --> 00:28:18.079 But before we get there entirely, I feel like I want to talk about Matthew for just a second. 00:28:18.240 --> 00:28:20.079 Matthew is a challenging character. 00:28:20.240 --> 00:28:20.559 Okay. 00:28:20.799 --> 00:28:25.599 If you're someone like me, and maybe someone like Peter, but I'm speaking for myself at the moment. 00:28:25.759 --> 00:28:27.599 I initially wanted to dislike Matthew. 00:28:27.679 --> 00:28:30.000 I'm like, he's a symbol of the church, he's a priest. 00:28:30.159 --> 00:28:31.679 This guy's going to annoy me. 00:28:31.839 --> 00:28:34.720 You know, what is his real agenda that's going on? 00:28:34.960 --> 00:28:40.240 From a Christian perspective, however, and there's always that dual nature operating within my person. 00:28:40.399 --> 00:28:43.279 From a Christian perspective, you're like, is this guy really a Christian? 00:28:43.439 --> 00:28:44.319 I mean, look at him. 00:28:44.480 --> 00:28:47.759 He's an alcoholic, he's good for nothing in that way. 00:28:48.000 --> 00:28:52.079 And clearly he just has no bravery in this moment either. 00:28:52.240 --> 00:28:56.240 He's looking to Tomas, and we discover some other things about him as well.

00:28:56.319 --> 00:28:59.599 And I'm like, so the Christian side of me is going, sinner. 00:29:00.079 --> 00:29:03.759 And the pagan side of me is going, oh, member of the church. 00:29:03.919 --> 00:29:10.480 And so Matthew, when he's first introduced, becomes an interesting character for the reader to reconcile themselves with. 00:29:10.639 --> 00:29:12.879 And that becomes increasingly so throughout the book. 00:29:12.960 --> 00:29:18.559 But yes, the river monster is really Tomas' first intentional action for good. 00:29:18.799 --> 00:29:23.519 And I think it becomes the symbol of him facing his inner demons. 00:29:23.679 --> 00:29:34.960 I think I compared this book to Pilgrim's Progress earlier, and I think that's that's very true because in Pilgrim's Progress, Pilgrim comes across these different moments where his faith is challenged. 00:29:35.039 --> 00:29:37.119 Like he has to fight these literal monsters. 00:29:37.359 --> 00:29:37.679 Right. 00:29:37.919 --> 00:29:42.319 And each time it teaches him to rely upon a different aspect of his faith. 00:29:42.480 --> 00:29:48.079 And in a similar way, the same thing happens to Tomas as he goes on this journey with Delphine. 00:29:48.240 --> 00:29:54.240 In this case, I think it is his feeling as though he can no longer do any good in the world. 00:29:54.480 --> 00:29:54.720 Right. 00:29:54.799 --> 00:30:09.279 It's really a facing these challenges to reconcile himself, to be able to see himself and be able to know what ability he has to do the right thing anymore because he's been doing the wrong thing for so long. 00:30:09.439 --> 00:30:14.480 And so this really isn't about him, you know, recognizing his Christianity. 00:30:14.799 --> 00:30:16.799 No, it's the moment he becomes a knight again. 00:30:17.119 --> 00:30:17.359 Right. 00:30:17.439 --> 00:30:21.839 The moment he becomes a knight, and a knight does good things, and a knight is supposed to help people. 00:30:22.000 --> 00:30:25.839 And Tomas has for a long time not operated in that way. 00:30:26.000 --> 00:30:39.199 But in this moment of handling the river monster, motivated by Delphine and Matthew, he goes in to actually do something for the people of that village, which is a very unique moment in his life and a turning point. 00:30:39.439 --> 00:30:39.679 Right. 00:30:39.759 --> 00:30:44.399 And and and as he faces this monster, which is clearly a demonic being, right? 00:30:44.639 --> 00:30:47.279 It has several different unusual aspects of it. 00:30:47.439 --> 00:31:00.319 It is a giant snake with spines, and it has a hand for a tail, and it's able to speak, and it's able to mock him and try to discourage him as he fights it, which I thought was very significant. 00:31:00.480 --> 00:31:08.240 The fact that this demon is trying to beat him down, to beat down his courage, to beat down his virtue, and to kill the confidence in himself. 00:31:08.799 --> 00:31:18.079 Well, it's the inner doubt and the inner evil, the inner inner nature of being selfish and everything else that is coming out to throw itself in his face. 00:31:18.399 --> 00:31:19.599 You are corrupt. 00:31:19.759 --> 00:31:21.919 You are incapable of doing this. 00:31:22.240 --> 00:31:24.559 And that is everything the river monster is. 00:31:24.639 --> 00:31:27.679 So I feel like when he's fighting the river monster, he's really fighting himself. 00:31:27.919 --> 00:31:32.240 Yeah, I think I think it's how the demons want him to see himself. 00:31:32.399 --> 00:31:32.559 Right. 00:31:32.879 --> 00:31:33.599 The ugliness in him. 00:31:34.159 --> 00:31:36.079 And how he's probably seen himself as well. 00:31:36.399 --> 00:31:39.199 Yeah, because he's done monstrous things as a brigand. 00:31:39.279 --> 00:31:46.559 He hasn't crossed certain lines, but he's certainly turned a blind eye to certain other horrible acts, even if he didn't participate in general. 00:31:46.720 --> 00:31:54.720 He's sort of given up on himself and in humanity and morality in general until he comes across Delphine, and then it's just too much. 00:31:54.799 --> 00:31:55.759 That's his breaking point. 00:31:55.839 --> 00:31:56.559 She's a child. 00:31:56.720 --> 00:31:58.000 She's like 12, I think. 00:31:58.240 --> 00:31:58.480 Right. 00:31:58.720 --> 00:32:03.359 And then, so, like you said, kind of against his better judgment, against his will, he acts. 00:32:03.519 --> 00:32:09.279 But this is the point where I think he takes intention to actually be a good person again, once more. 00:32:09.359 --> 00:32:10.639 And that's when he becomes a knight. 00:32:10.879 --> 00:32:11.039 Right. 00:32:11.119 --> 00:32:18.399 And it's not that he doesn't have doubts from this point forward, because this is a very human journey for Tomas, and he continues to doubt himself. 00:32:18.559 --> 00:32:22.799 He continues to want to kind of run the opposite direction of the things Delphine wants him to do. 00:32:22.960 --> 00:32:29.119 He wants to do it in his own way, which is sometimes very violent, you know, so he's not without those continuing flaws. 00:32:29.279 --> 00:32:37.359 So this isn't a moment that radically changes his person, but it is his first intentional action for good, and it is his road to redemption. 00:32:37.599 --> 00:32:46.799 And because of the fallout from this, a very, very obvious miracle has to occur in order for them to move on. 00:32:46.879 --> 00:32:50.399 And when it does occur, then he fully commits to the pilgrimage. 00:32:50.559 --> 00:32:50.799 Right. 00:32:50.960 --> 00:32:52.000 But then they come to the next challenge. 00:32:52.079 --> 00:32:52.319 Okay. 00:32:52.399 --> 00:32:55.119 So the demons are going, okay, fine, you're a knight. 00:32:55.199 --> 00:32:56.399 Let's we can work with that. 00:32:56.559 --> 00:32:58.000 And there's this weird part in the book. 00:32:58.079 --> 00:32:59.359 That's the weirdest part of the book for me. 00:32:59.679 --> 00:33:00.159 But really? 00:33:00.319 --> 00:33:01.119

That's the weirdest? 00:33:01.359 --> 00:33:01.519 Yeah. 00:33:02.000 --> 00:33:02.960 Well, I mean, I don't know. 00:33:03.039 --> 00:33:05.839 We all have our own things where I'm like, okay, what the hell is going on here? 00:33:06.079 --> 00:33:09.919 But they they they come across this castle in the middle of a field, right? 00:33:10.079 --> 00:33:10.159 Right. 00:33:10.480 --> 00:33:16.000 Delphine says, Don't go in there, but they're tired, they're hungry, they're starving to death, and then like, no, we can we're gonna stay. 00:33:16.079 --> 00:33:16.720 And she refuses. 00:33:16.879 --> 00:33:20.559 She's gonna, I'll stay in this tree tonight if you insist upon going in there. 00:33:20.720 --> 00:33:21.599 But don't blame me. 00:33:21.679 --> 00:33:22.799 I warned you essentially. 00:33:22.960 --> 00:33:23.199 Right. 00:33:23.359 --> 00:33:28.000 And and they go in there, and it's sort of this seven deadly sins situation. 00:33:28.240 --> 00:33:28.720 It is. 00:33:28.960 --> 00:33:31.839 And and and it's just full-on debauchery. 00:33:32.000 --> 00:33:44.720 But not only that, it's this it's this poking at his desire to not just be a knight, but to be a knight with honor, to be a knight with respect, to be a knight that gets his glory back. 00:33:44.879 --> 00:34:02.639 And so the demons set up this sort of jousting tournament, which they use to again try to beat him down, to point out all his flaws, all the things he cannot do, all his weaknesses, to make fun of his lowly birth because he's not born of nobility. 00:34:02.799 --> 00:34:07.919 He was made a knight under very specific circumstances, and they bring all of that back up. 00:34:08.240 --> 00:34:14.000 And his pain for being made a cuckold by another nobleman who stole his wife and his lands and his title. 00:34:14.240 --> 00:34:14.480 Right. 00:34:14.639 --> 00:34:26.000 And all that all that is brought to bear upon him, and it's this really strange, horrific situation involving zombies and and all kinds of stuff. 00:34:26.159 --> 00:34:28.720 Like it it really is like a fever dream. 00:34:28.880 --> 00:34:36.559 Like as he's going through it, I'm like, oh my God, this is like the worst type of nightmare anyone can possibly have, and he can't quite get out of it. 00:34:36.720 --> 00:34:45.920 It's like he's on loop, like the moment where he tries to get through the castle and then he comes out in the same exact room where he started from, and you're like, that's what I knew. 00:34:46.000 --> 00:34:58.559 I'm like, this is a psychological journey, this is psychological torture, and and he is trapped inside his own misgivings, his own doubt, his own guilt, and his own inability to find his way forward. 00:34:58.799 --> 00:35:00.960 And fortunately, he does make it out of this. 00:35:01.199 --> 00:35:04.960 And let's just make it clear, he he's also sharing this delusion with Matthew. 00:35:05.679 --> 00:35:13.679 Yes, because Matthew is in a similar spot because he's equally equally compromised, equally questioning whether he's even a priest anymore. 00:35:14.000 --> 00:35:14.159 Right. 00:35:14.319 --> 00:35:23.440 Because it they ply him all night long with alcohol until he is debauching himself with another man because we get the impression that he's a gay priest. 00:35:23.759 --> 00:35:25.119 And this is his great shame. 00:35:25.360 --> 00:35:25.679 Right. 00:35:25.840 --> 00:35:27.920 Because he's been told that's his great shame. 00:35:28.079 --> 00:35:28.400 Right. 00:35:28.559 --> 00:35:28.799 Right. 00:35:29.039 --> 00:35:33.039 So did you get the impression, like, I'm sorry, this is just a moment of humor. 00:35:33.119 --> 00:35:49.440 And for those of us that are Gen X and have watched a lot of Monty Python, like I felt the whole scene in the Holy Grail where they come up to the French people that are hurling insults at them, except in this case, they're nice to them to draw them into the castle and then like throw all this random crap at them. 00:35:49.519 --> 00:35:52.480 And that's what I felt like when I was going into this moment. 00:35:52.719 --> 00:35:57.039 I actually, I actually it's thought of the same movie, but Castle Anthrax instead. 00:35:57.279 --> 00:35:58.319 Okay, that makes sense. 00:35:58.559 --> 00:35:59.920 That absolutely makes sense. 00:36:00.239 --> 00:36:14.319 So it is just really weird, but it does represent a very, if we want to analyze it from a psychoanalytic perspective, which again, literature nerd, but if we really want to criticize it in that way, this is very much a psychological moment. 00:36:14.480 --> 00:36:21.840 Whether it's Freudian or Jungian or whatever it is, it is it is a psychological journey in this weird fever dream that he has. 00:36:22.079 --> 00:36:25.920 So he comes out of the fever dream, and then we have to move forward from there. 00:36:26.079 --> 00:36:30.880 And do you think he comes out with a renewed sense of confidence because he overcomes it? 00:36:31.039 --> 00:36:34.000 Or is he shaken by that moment? 00:36:34.239 --> 00:36:36.079 I think he's shaken by that moment. 00:36:36.239 --> 00:36:40.400 I think he comes out with a new sense of confidence in Delphine. 00:36:40.559 --> 00:36:44.799 And okay, the next time she tells me I shouldn't do something, I'm not gonna do it. 00:36:45.199 --> 00:36:46.960 But no, I I I think it gets to him. 00:36:47.119 --> 00:36:56.880 I think it gets to him because he's still got this desire for revenge, he's still got a lot of pain that he's carrying and anger, and it opens up a lot of wounds in him. 00:36:57.119 --> 00:36:57.279 Right. 00:36:57.360 --> 00:36:59.599 And I think I think that has to happen, right? 00:36:59.840 --> 00:37:08.239 Because that was all stuff he'd suppressed, and now it has to come to the surface because until it comes to the surface, he can't really start to deal with it. 00:37:08.400 --> 00:37:13.599 And so, on some level, Delphine told him not to go in, knowing he was gonna go in.

00:37:13.759 --> 00:37:18.719 But I think going into that moment was absolutely necessary for the steps that he takes after this. 00:37:18.960 --> 00:37:19.279 I agree. 00:37:19.440 --> 00:37:26.559 So the next interesting thing that happens in the book is takes place in another city that they come to, and it's interesting. 00:37:26.880 --> 00:37:32.719 The city is being tormented at night by something that is killing anyone that's in the street. 00:37:32.960 --> 00:37:34.400 Right, and this is Paris, by the way. 00:37:34.719 --> 00:37:35.279 It is Paris. 00:37:35.360 --> 00:37:35.599 Yes. 00:37:35.840 --> 00:37:45.519 And it turns out that the statues of the saints in front of the church come alive and walk down the street just slaughtering anyone who's outside. 00:37:45.759 --> 00:37:58.639 And and so the statues, he opens the door to these statues because he gets tricked thinking there's a baby, there's a baby out there, and Mary comes in and she swinging a dead baby's body from her arm. 00:37:58.719 --> 00:38:02.559 The statue of Mary comes in, very again fever dreamish, but go ahead. 00:38:02.799 --> 00:38:07.360 And slaughters everyone, and he has to fight these impossibly to kill monsters, monsters. 00:38:09.279 --> 00:38:13.519 And I felt like what it was was it was a mockery of the saints, right? 00:38:13.679 --> 00:38:20.480 It was a mockery of human icons of goodness, right, but also religious icons of goodness. 00:38:20.639 --> 00:38:29.279 This is the ultimate challenge to the church and and really exemplifying for me the corruption of those icons. 00:38:32.400 --> 00:38:32.799 Right. 00:38:33.039 --> 00:38:45.199 And so that church corruptions, it's very creepy because Tomas ends up going by that church the next day and seeing all those statues repositioned and the horrible things associated with them. 00:38:45.360 --> 00:38:46.639 And they're all like holding dead children. 00:38:46.799 --> 00:39:03.679 Yeah, they're all holding dead children, and it really shows that horrific corruption of what is considered quote unquote holy ground, and really get the feeling that the only holy ground that exists in that picture is what Tomas is carrying in the cart with him, which is Delphine. 00:39:04.000 --> 00:39:11.199 And everything there is just corrupted and nasty, and it's just this really disturbing moment. 00:39:11.360 --> 00:39:36.239 So for me, that really challenges the religious institution and what we claim to be holy, quote unquote, things that call themselves holy, and it shows the damage that can do because of all those dead children, because of the dead people in the house, because in that moment when he opens the door, the Virgin Mary kills this potential mother and father that Delphine has actually found. 00:39:36.400 --> 00:39:42.880 And of course, that's very plot-driven as well, because she has to keep moving forward, but it is also very symbolic. 00:39:43.039 --> 00:39:53.119 So I want to go back to that Trinitarian thing I started to say during the first part of the podcast and really identify how I apply that Trinitarian idea in this moment. 00:39:53.360 --> 00:39:57.519 And for me, Tomas is God the Father. 00:39:57.759 --> 00:40:03.440 And we already heard in that opening passage that God made no answer and God made no answer. 00:40:03.759 --> 00:40:08.559 And like God the Father, Tomas has had a major period of inaction. 00:40:08.639 --> 00:40:11.759 He hasn't been making a lot of answers toward anything, right? 00:40:12.079 --> 00:40:13.920 So I feel like he is God the Father. 00:40:14.239 --> 00:40:17.840 And when he does act, his his action is violence. 00:40:18.000 --> 00:40:19.039 Yes, it's killing. 00:40:19.279 --> 00:40:20.159 Yes, it's killing. 00:40:20.239 --> 00:40:22.639 It's not, it's not some act of goodness. 00:40:22.719 --> 00:40:24.159 It is it is violence. 00:40:24.400 --> 00:40:39.599 So then I feel like in that way, Matthew really represents the Holy Spirit, and he is that first moment where Tomas is called into deeper action, you know, the the small voice of the Holy Spirit calling you, right? 00:40:39.679 --> 00:40:44.400 In this case, I think Matthew really represents that Holy Spirit in a lot of ways. 00:40:44.480 --> 00:40:46.400 He is the conscience in the background. 00:40:46.559 --> 00:40:54.000 Now he may be a flawed conscience, which he really is, but he continues to be that conscience all the way up to the point where he doesn't. 00:40:54.319 --> 00:40:57.440 Well, biblically speaking, people of faith are vessels for the Holy Spirit. 00:40:57.679 --> 00:40:58.000 Right. 00:40:58.159 --> 00:40:58.480 Right? 00:40:58.639 --> 00:41:02.960 So he is a person of faith, and therefore he is a vessel for the Holy Spirit in that sense. 00:41:03.039 --> 00:41:10.319 So his flaws included the Holy Spirit, quote unquote, is at work in him in whatever way it can. 00:41:10.480 --> 00:41:10.639 Right. 00:41:10.880 --> 00:41:15.360 So in that sense, I do think, yeah, he definitely represents the presence of the Holy Spirit. 00:41:15.679 --> 00:41:15.840 Right. 00:41:15.920 --> 00:41:17.759 And so then that that leaves Delphine. 00:41:17.840 --> 00:41:22.559 And so obviously the Trinity, the Father, you know, the Holy Spirit, the Son, right? 00:41:22.719 --> 00:41:24.719 Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. 00:41:25.039 --> 00:41:30.719 So Delphine is really the embodiment of the Christ figure in this situation. 00:41:30.880 --> 00:41:34.960 And there are some really interesting moments where those illusions are very real to me. 00:41:35.119 --> 00:41:47.599 And one of the moments is on the road to Avignon, after they've escaped Paris, and both Matthew and Tomas become drunk and go to sleep, and they cannot be waked. 00:41:47.759 --> 00:41:49.920 They're just completely out of it. 00:41:50.159 --> 00:41:55.679 And Delphine recognizes that something bad is happening, that something is wrong. 00:41:55.840 --> 00:41:58.159 And her angel tells her, No,

don't go. 00:41:58.319 --> 00:41:59.360 It's dangerous. 00:41:59.599 --> 00:42:03.599 But she is driven to go anyway because she needs to try to go help. 00:42:03.759 --> 00:42:12.960 And so she leaves a sleeping Tomas and Matthew passed out while she heads in to try to do some good. 00:42:13.039 --> 00:42:27.279 And it was very Garden of Gethsemane to me, you know, that she was going to head in and maybe, although not in this moment, but maybe willingly sacrifice herself in order to do whatever good this is to stop the bad that is happening. 00:42:27.440 --> 00:42:32.400 And Tomas and Matthew are oblivious to that action until the very last minute. 00:42:32.559 --> 00:42:34.960 But do you want to share just a little bit about what's going on there? 00:42:35.199 --> 00:42:45.840 Yeah, and that was really reminiscent to me of different points within the Gospels where the disciples or somebody advises Jesus not to do this thing, and yet he must, and he does. 00:42:46.079 --> 00:42:49.039 And the angel specifically says, Don't go, you'll make it worse. 00:42:49.199 --> 00:42:53.759 And there were moments like that in the gospel where Jesus acts and a mob reacts. 00:42:54.000 --> 00:42:54.239 Right. 00:42:54.400 --> 00:42:55.679 And they come after him to kill him. 00:42:55.840 --> 00:42:56.880 So something similar happens here. 00:42:56.960 --> 00:43:01.119 Delphine goes off to this town and she witnesses basically the forming of this cult. 00:43:01.279 --> 00:43:08.480 This group of spirituals are coming through, banging their tambourines, dancing, doing flips, and they're singing praises and stuff like that. 00:43:08.559 --> 00:43:14.400 And there's this man at the head of it, and he's claiming that he's can cure the plague and he can bring people back to life. 00:43:14.480 --> 00:43:18.480 And he starts performing these miracles where he literally brings dead people alive. 00:43:18.639 --> 00:43:18.799 Right. 00:43:18.960 --> 00:43:20.799 And Delphine sees-I mean, for real, for real. 00:43:20.960 --> 00:43:21.039 Yeah. 00:43:21.279 --> 00:43:25.679 Delphine sees this and says, This says, Stop, this is an abomination. 00:43:25.840 --> 00:43:30.239 And she goes up to the people that he's just brought back to life and touches them, and then they fall dead again. 00:43:30.799 --> 00:43:31.759 Right, and they're at peace. 00:43:31.920 --> 00:43:32.880 And they're at peace, right? 00:43:32.960 --> 00:43:36.719 Because what these demons are doing are basically trapping their tortured souls within their body. 00:43:36.880 --> 00:43:37.920 And so it's not a good thing. 00:43:38.000 --> 00:43:39.840 And it's also, like I said, a cult. 00:43:39.920 --> 00:43:46.480 So it's a it's is this guy's kind of uh bringing this sort of worship onto himself instead of God, and there's all sorts of things going on there. 00:43:46.559 --> 00:43:54.719 But anyway, after she does this, of course, they accuse her of being a witch, and something very biblical happens is when they come to try to kill her, all of a sudden everyone is struck blind. 00:43:54.880 --> 00:43:55.199 Right. 00:43:55.360 --> 00:43:57.440 And she's able to escape the mob. 00:43:57.599 --> 00:44:05.679 But unfortunately, this does bring the attention of the demonic forces directly upon her because she kind of got under the radar before this point. 00:44:06.000 --> 00:44:11.199 As would be true of Christ in the Bible, in that he operated under the radar for a long time. 00:44:11.279 --> 00:44:18.639 And it's that Sermon on the Mount and some of the other miracles he performs that suddenly thrust him into the eyes of everyone else. 00:44:18.719 --> 00:44:21.920 So Delphine is now thrust into the eyes of the demons. 00:44:22.079 --> 00:44:31.199 The demons are very aware of her and who she is or what's possessing her, and they are zeroed in on her at that moment. 00:44:31.519 --> 00:44:46.799 I couldn't help but this was very reminiscent of the flagellants during the plague, the religious figures that ran around beating themselves on the back and trying to perform these holy acts in order to get rid of the plague, and they actually just made it worse. 00:44:46.880 --> 00:44:48.079 They were just spreading death. 00:44:48.239 --> 00:44:54.319 And for me, this man that Is up there going, I can bring the dead to life, is spreading more death. 00:44:54.559 --> 00:45:02.639 He's just reanimating these corpses and trapping, trapping these souls, and the death is just being spread as a result. 00:45:02.799 --> 00:45:04.159 So it's very cultish. 00:45:04.239 --> 00:45:12.719 It has the biblical illusions, and then I feel like historically it really matches up with some of that stuff that was going on, motivated by quote unquote the church. 00:45:12.960 --> 00:45:19.599 And it's right on theme with one of the major points of the book that we've already discussed, and that is faith being a matter of action. 00:45:19.840 --> 00:45:20.079 Right. 00:45:20.319 --> 00:45:22.960 Good and evil being matters of action. 00:45:23.119 --> 00:45:24.319 They are not passive. 00:45:24.480 --> 00:45:26.000 Actions have consequences. 00:45:26.159 --> 00:45:30.239 And sometimes even good actions have negative consequences. 00:45:30.400 --> 00:45:30.880 Correct. 00:45:31.039 --> 00:45:35.199 But also, there's another element of action that Thomas takes just before this. 00:45:35.360 --> 00:45:45.440 Right after Thomas Tomas saves Delphine from being essentially raped by killing the men who are going to rape her, she says, don't kill ever again from this point forward. 00:45:45.920 --> 00:45:47.679 And he's like, What the hell you say? 00:45:48.159 --> 00:45:48.480 Yeah. 00:45:48.799 --> 00:45:50.719 Don't do the thing that I'm best at doing. 00:45:51.039 --> 00:45:51.519 Great. 00:45:51.679 --> 00:45:52.079 Great. 00:45:52.239 --> 00:45:58.880 But it goes right along with that right occupation, right living, you know, that whole, you know, our actions, what we put into

the world matters. 00:45:58.960 --> 00:46:02.319 And if you put death into the world, you will get death back. 00:46:02.400 --> 00:46:04.000 And she tells him to stop doing that. 00:46:04.159 --> 00:46:06.159 Stop being a vehicle of death yourself. 00:46:06.480 --> 00:46:08.960 Don't cut off the ear of the centurion. 00:46:09.279 --> 00:46:10.960 He that lives by the sword will die by the sword, right? 00:46:11.519 --> 00:46:14.880 And he breaks this promise to her just before this moment. 00:46:15.119 --> 00:46:16.960 And so we're waiting for the consequence. 00:46:17.119 --> 00:46:32.639 And unfortunately, the consequence of all this, him breaking that promise, getting drunk, Delphine having to face this evil alone with no protection, it all comes back around to being the death of Matthew and the exposure of them to the demons. 00:46:32.960 --> 00:46:33.360 Correct. 00:46:33.519 --> 00:46:43.679 And it is really that moment where Tomas has blasphemed the Holy Spirit, blasphemed the conscience, gone against what he was supposed to do. 00:46:43.840 --> 00:46:46.159 And then they're exposed to this greater evil. 00:46:46.480 --> 00:46:53.039 See, and I'm glad you said that because what when you hear blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, what did you always interpret it as in the Bible? 00:46:53.279 --> 00:46:58.559 I always interpret it as you know what's right and you know what's wrong, and you choose to do the wrong anyway. 00:46:58.880 --> 00:46:59.199 Right. 00:46:59.360 --> 00:47:00.079 Yes, okay. 00:47:00.239 --> 00:47:06.719 Yeah, and I would I would concur with that because I I was always told growing up that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit was refusing to accept Christ into your heart. 00:47:07.039 --> 00:47:09.199 Oh no, that's it that is a free will moment. 00:47:09.599 --> 00:47:10.159 Right, right. 00:47:10.400 --> 00:47:17.440 And I I I balk at that idea because the first time Jesus has mentions it in the Bible, he's talking to the Pharisees. 00:47:17.679 --> 00:47:18.000 Right. 00:47:18.239 --> 00:47:21.119 And why why is he saying that to the Pharisees? 00:47:21.279 --> 00:47:23.440 What is the Pharisees' biggest sin? 00:47:23.759 --> 00:47:26.239 Spiritual pride, but in action, right? 00:47:26.400 --> 00:47:26.799 Right. 00:47:27.039 --> 00:47:29.279 Being good in their own mind, right? 00:47:29.519 --> 00:47:30.559 But not actually doing good. 00:47:31.599 --> 00:47:37.679 And then every time Jesus mentions an action that will condemn you, it's forgive others or you will not be forgiven. 00:47:37.840 --> 00:47:48.079 You will be judged by the measure you judge others, and the the good Samaritan, the sheep, and the goats, it's all about taking action in the name of his spirit. 00:47:48.319 --> 00:47:48.559 Right. 00:47:49.199 --> 00:47:57.199 But if you know you're supposed to take action and then you don't, or you take the wrong action deliberately, that is where the blasphemy comes into play. 00:47:57.519 --> 00:48:01.679 Especially when you attribute it to you you attribute that kind of behavior to Christ. 00:48:02.000 --> 00:48:02.480 To the good. 00:48:02.719 --> 00:48:07.599 When you are acting antichrist, but calling yourself Christ, that is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. 00:48:07.759 --> 00:48:19.440 And so I think that's exactly the message of what's happening in this book is that everybody is waiting for God to intervene, God to act, but we are the vessels of the divine. 00:48:19.840 --> 00:48:24.880 The divine comes into the world through us and through our actions, as does evil. 00:48:25.119 --> 00:48:25.360 Right. 00:48:25.440 --> 00:48:27.440 So that's very Eastern Orthodox of you. 00:48:27.599 --> 00:48:32.079 The idea that we have the spark of God in all of us is a very Eastern Orthodox idea. 00:48:32.239 --> 00:48:39.519 And I think that if I still gel with any part of Christianity, it's probably that more Eastern philosophy than the Western. 00:48:39.679 --> 00:48:52.559 So Matthew's death really throws Delphine and Tomas into crisis because Tomas has a kind of meltdown, a kind of paralysis over the idea that Matthew has died. 00:48:52.799 --> 00:48:56.719 And not just died, but he is killed by a giant demon. 00:48:56.960 --> 00:48:58.799 Right, killed by a giant demon. 00:48:58.880 --> 00:49:06.319 And Tomas has come face to face with the spiritual battle that is going on underneath what he had just seen on the surface. 00:49:06.480 --> 00:49:14.799 And now he knows that as they're on the journey from Paris to Avignon, that when they get to Avignon, only death can await there. 00:49:14.960 --> 00:49:21.039 For Delphine, for him, he knows that death is there and he cannot abide it any longer. 00:49:21.199 --> 00:49:31.679 And he definitely lacks the courage to do it without the Holy Spirit, without the buffer that he had, without the conscience, without Matthew, as much trouble as he'd given him along the way. 00:49:31.840 --> 00:49:34.960 Matthew is kind of this lifeline on some level. 00:49:35.199 --> 00:49:36.639 And Tomas can't do it. 00:49:36.719 --> 00:49:39.440 So he locks down and he's like, I'm not going any further. 00:49:39.679 --> 00:49:46.400 And so this leads to a moment where Tomas and Delphine are separated because Delphine knows I have to go to Avignon. 00:49:46.559 --> 00:49:47.759 That is my purpose. 00:49:47.920 --> 00:49:50.319 That is where I have to defeat the ultimate evil. 00:49:50.400 --> 00:49:54.400 That is where I have to actually do what I'm being called to do. 00:49:54.639 --> 00:49:57.279 So I have to leave you behind. 00:49:57.519 --> 00:50:05.440 And if I go with my Trinitarian thing for a second, it is Christ going to earth when the father stays in the background. 00:50:05.679 --> 00:50:11.679 So in going off on her own, Delphine faces her own type of evil and her own type of temptation. 00:50:11.759 --> 00:50:16.400 And I find it really significant that she faces that within the church. 00:50:16.639 --> 00:50:24.880 As when you

think Christ would have when he went to earth, Delphine has to face this evil that exists within a church building. 00:50:25.039 --> 00:50:30.480 And that's where she has her ultimate temptation and kind of her ultimate trial before she ends up in Amiens. 00:50:31.039 --> 00:50:37.599 Meanwhile, Tomas is on his own without Delphine as his conscience, and he has his own trials to face. 00:50:37.920 --> 00:50:50.159 Yes, this is the famous dark night of the soul moment in the spiritual journey, especially for Tomas, who after she leaves him, he kind of initially wanders around aimlessly. 00:50:50.239 --> 00:50:52.799 He's now a knight without a cause again. 00:50:52.960 --> 00:50:57.599 And he kind of is generally traveling in the direction he believes Delphine went. 00:50:57.759 --> 00:50:58.079 Right. 00:50:58.239 --> 00:51:01.440 But without much urgency because he still doesn't know where his heart is. 00:51:01.599 --> 00:51:03.519 He just knows that she shouldn't be alone. 00:51:03.759 --> 00:51:05.199 And he and he feels guilty about that. 00:51:05.360 --> 00:51:06.480 And he feels guilty about that. 00:51:06.639 --> 00:51:08.960 He comes across a town that has just been slaughtered. 00:51:09.119 --> 00:51:13.759 All the men have been slaughtered by these British soldiers that have come through and pillaged them. 00:51:13.840 --> 00:51:14.000 Right. 00:51:14.159 --> 00:51:17.840 And at first they think Tomas is one of these soldiers and they want to kill him. 00:51:17.920 --> 00:51:24.079 But once he identifies himself as French, uh, then they ask him to avenge the men in the city. 00:51:24.239 --> 00:51:24.480 Right. 00:51:24.639 --> 00:51:27.039 And he initially he vows that he will. 00:51:27.199 --> 00:51:33.119 And so later on, he goes to the next village and he finds that these men are all inside this bathhouse. 00:51:33.199 --> 00:51:34.799 And he knows that they are vulnerable. 00:51:35.119 --> 00:51:35.599 They're naked. 00:51:35.920 --> 00:51:36.480 They're naked. 00:51:36.880 --> 00:51:39.440 He can walk right in there and slaughter them like pigs. 00:51:39.599 --> 00:51:45.840 And he goes in there and he does stand above them the pool with his sword drawn, and they know they're all going to die. 00:51:46.079 --> 00:51:55.759 And then he goes through this crisis in his mind where he remembers that Delphine made him promise not to kill and the consequences of what happened the last time he broke that promise. 00:51:56.000 --> 00:51:58.880 But also, in a way, the hypocrisy of it all. 00:51:59.039 --> 00:52:07.119 Because at one point he was a knight who turned to brigandhood and had done all the things that he was now about to condemn these men for doing. 00:52:07.360 --> 00:52:07.519 Right. 00:52:07.599 --> 00:52:09.360 So is this the new covenant moment? 00:52:09.599 --> 00:52:10.480 Yes, I think so. 00:52:10.559 --> 00:52:10.880 Yeah. 00:52:11.119 --> 00:52:13.440 And I think it's it's really important decision. 00:52:13.599 --> 00:52:15.519 It's this is the crossroads, really. 00:52:15.679 --> 00:52:15.920 Right. 00:52:16.079 --> 00:52:19.039 This is the moment that is going to decide his fate. 00:52:19.199 --> 00:52:23.519 And he stands there and they know that he can kill them, and he has the power to do it. 00:52:23.679 --> 00:52:26.079 And then he sheathes his sword and he walks away. 00:52:26.319 --> 00:52:27.519 He opts for mercy. 00:52:27.759 --> 00:52:34.639 And again, this is another point that the book makes over and over again is that actions have consequences. 00:52:34.799 --> 00:52:37.840 Actions have results, good consequences and bad consequences. 00:52:38.079 --> 00:52:44.079 And this is a good action in that he's following Delphine's instruction, do not kill anyone else. 00:52:44.319 --> 00:52:47.599 Yes, because when he put death out there, death stayed out there. 00:52:48.000 --> 00:52:49.199 And death came back on him. 00:52:49.440 --> 00:52:50.400 And it caused more death. 00:52:50.559 --> 00:52:56.880 And in this case, he put mercy out there, and that stays out there, and mercy comes back upon him later on. 00:52:57.199 --> 00:52:59.519 Which is a very important point as we go forward. 00:52:59.759 --> 00:53:10.960 And it's after this moment where he has nearly been killed, and he himself has been shown mercy because of the mercy that he showed others, that Delphine suddenly miraculously finds him again and says, Are you ready to go to Avignon? 00:53:11.360 --> 00:53:13.840 And then he is ready to go to Avignon in that moment. 00:53:14.000 --> 00:53:14.239 Yes. 00:53:14.480 --> 00:53:21.679 Right after he has seen the providential nature of mercy, of goodness, of right action. 00:53:22.000 --> 00:53:25.279 And overcome one of his last temptations, which is the temptation for revenge. 00:53:25.519 --> 00:53:27.519 Right, which we won't totally go into. 00:53:27.599 --> 00:53:38.319 So we're kind of at this point in the book where we're at the end and we have this desire not to completely spoil the end andor, you know, flesh the end out entirely. 00:53:38.639 --> 00:53:45.119 But it goes without saying that ultimately Delphine has to make the ultimate sacrifice. 00:53:45.199 --> 00:53:51.440 If she is the Christ figure, she ultimately has to sacrifice herself to rid the world of evil. 00:53:51.599 --> 00:53:59.440 And Tomas is there with her, and he acts almost as a mirror to that in those final moments in Avignon. 00:53:59.599 --> 00:54:02.079 And the final message of this book is about redemption. 00:54:02.319 --> 00:54:02.960 It really is. 00:54:03.119 --> 00:54:06.559 And and why are we redeemed in the end? 00:54:06.639 --> 00:54:09.039 And what what what leads to redemption? 00:54:09.119 --> 00:54:16.480 And I think it goes right along with what we've been saying is that if your life is a vessel for the divine, the divine is the only thing that cannot be held in hell. 00:54:16.639 --> 00:54:16.880 Right. 00:54:17.039 --> 00:54:17.199 Right?

00:54:17.279 --> 00:54:20.000 The divine is the only thing that can go to hell and back. 00:54:20.239 --> 00:54:22.239 And come back from and come back again. 00:54:22.400 --> 00:54:30.719 And because Tomas has made certain decisions and started down that journey, that's very important for him as far as his redemption art goes. 00:54:30.960 --> 00:54:31.360 Correct. 00:54:31.519 --> 00:54:39.440 So it is about redemption, but in this case, it's redemption in spite of the things that have been labeled holy. 00:54:39.599 --> 00:54:48.319 Because when we go to Avignon, historically, in this time period, the seat of the Catholic Church is not Rome, it is Avignon. 00:54:48.480 --> 00:54:50.880 The current Pope has brought it to Avignon. 00:54:51.039 --> 00:54:52.880 So this is the seat of the church. 00:54:53.039 --> 00:54:57.119 And there is nothing but corruption in this seat of the church. 00:54:57.199 --> 00:55:00.000 And that's what Delphine has to go to conquer. 00:55:00.079 --> 00:55:02.159 And Tomas has to help her conquer. 00:55:02.719 --> 00:55:11.119 And so we really get the redemption in spite of the church, in spite of the quote-unquote holiness. 00:55:11.279 --> 00:55:23.360 And in that way, I don't feel like this is Christian apologetics that takes place at the end when Delphine defeats hell and Tomas defeats hell on some level. 00:55:23.599 --> 00:55:34.880 I feel like this is really human action coupled with the divine, the spiritual, reconciling and bringing good back into the world. 00:55:35.199 --> 00:55:40.319 And the holy, quote unquote, is really proven to be ugly. 00:55:40.559 --> 00:55:53.119 And we have redemption in the form of this 12, 13-year-old girl who then is coupled with this disgraced knight who then suddenly brings redemption to the world. 00:55:53.360 --> 00:55:53.599 Right. 00:55:53.679 --> 00:55:58.719 This book takes on the assumption uh that holiness can be inherent in something. 00:55:58.880 --> 00:55:59.119 Right. 00:55:59.360 --> 00:56:00.000 Without action. 00:56:00.239 --> 00:56:00.639 Right. 00:56:00.880 --> 00:56:01.920 And it can't. 00:56:02.079 --> 00:56:02.319 No. 00:56:02.559 --> 00:56:07.039 And and even in the end, there's a redemption in a way for the church itself. 00:56:07.279 --> 00:56:07.840 There is. 00:56:08.079 --> 00:56:12.000 But it comes through right action, right words. 00:56:12.159 --> 00:56:17.519 It comes through a change of heart and not just an inherent holiness because it's the church. 00:56:17.840 --> 00:56:18.079 Right. 00:56:18.159 --> 00:56:23.840 And there's an issue with the Pope and kind of the redemption, a redemption arc with the Pope. 00:56:23.920 --> 00:56:27.119 And I will leave that kind of unexplained to a certain extent. 00:56:27.360 --> 00:56:39.360 But the Pope is not redeemed from his flaws because the true Pope has terrible flaws, or not so terrible flaws, has terrible flaws by definition of the church. 00:56:39.679 --> 00:56:53.599 He is sleeping with a woman,

he has a mistress, he has other very human qualities and aspects to him, but he is also a tool of redemption in these closing moments. 00:56:53.759 --> 00:57:04.639 And it is the rejection of superficial holiness and the embrace of real flawed goodness. 00:57:05.039 --> 00:57:05.279 Right. 00:57:05.440 --> 00:57:08.559 And the book is called Between Two Fires for two reasons. 00:57:08.799 --> 00:57:15.119 Because the Pope has been ordered by his doctor to sit constantly between these two brasiers in order to ward off the plague. 00:57:15.199 --> 00:57:16.480 But I think ward off evil. 00:57:16.719 --> 00:57:17.360 Ward off evil. 00:57:17.440 --> 00:57:23.199 But I think more than that, it's the it's the two kinds of fires that we can face in our life. 00:57:23.440 --> 00:57:30.880 The fire that consumes, the fire of hell, the fire of punishment, or the fires of purification. 00:57:31.119 --> 00:57:31.519 Right. 00:57:31.679 --> 00:57:36.000 And and they are both distinctly different while being the same. 00:57:36.239 --> 00:57:42.000 So so the fire, the burning up, but in this case, baptism, baptism by fire. 00:57:42.159 --> 00:57:42.400 Right. 00:57:42.559 --> 00:57:43.279 And rebirth. 00:57:43.440 --> 00:57:45.840 It is an incredibly profound book. 00:57:46.000 --> 00:57:47.519 I just have to emphasize that. 00:57:47.679 --> 00:58:00.799 And it has something for everyone, but I think it has a distinct message about our responsibility as human beings, our responsibility to each other, our responsibility to the world as a whole, and what that really looks like. 00:58:00.960 --> 00:58:09.679 And the fact that it can be terribly flawed, but if we're doing the next right thing, then we're on the pilgrimage in the right direction. 00:58:09.840 --> 00:58:12.799 And I think that is really, really important in this book. 00:58:13.039 --> 00:58:13.279 Yes. 00:58:13.360 --> 00:58:19.599 And and you know, I I'll leave it with this insight is that Jesus said, I am the way, I am the truth, and I am the life. 00:58:19.679 --> 00:58:21.840 And I don't think that was a passive statement. 00:58:22.000 --> 00:58:25.519 I don't think that was just a say you believe in me, and you're good. 00:58:25.679 --> 00:58:26.239 And you're good. 00:58:26.480 --> 00:58:32.400 He showed you the way, he told you the truth, and he lived the life that you're supposed to exemplify. 00:58:32.559 --> 00:58:34.960 And that is the path to redemption. 00:58:35.199 --> 00:58:35.920 That is correct. 00:58:36.079 --> 00:58:41.759 So moving on, we've got to end this out and talk about what we're going to read next time. 00:58:41.840 --> 00:58:45.199 So, Peter, what are we headed to on our next episode? 00:58:45.440 --> 00:58:57.119 Well, we're well past Indigenous Persons Day, unfortunately, right now, but we did read a series of short stories by Indigenous authors called Never Whistle at Night. 00:58:57.440 --> 00:59:00.960 And I think we're going to choose a few to discuss, and that'll be our next episode. 00:59:01.199 --> 00:59:02.799 Yes, and I'm really excited about that. 00:59:02.880 --> 00:59:06.079 I've been trying to figure out which ones I can also use in my classroom. 00:59:06.239 --> 00:59:08.079 So this will be a really good discussion. 00:59:08.239 --> 00:59:10.319 So until next time, keep reading. 00:59:10.559 --> 00:59:11.199 Keep thinking. 00:59:11.360 --> 00:59:13.279 And we'll get back to you and talk to you soon. 00:59:13.440 --> 00:59:13.679 Bye.