התמלול המלא של Cloyd Steiger

correct me here in a minute. And then 73 00:04:21.279 --> 00:04:23.800 he did a lot of homicide work there, and he's 74 00:04:23.839 --> 00:04:26.560 been a part of some other homicide groups, and most 75 00:04:26.639 --> 00:04:28.480 recently that I happened to read is that he's a 76 00:04:28.480 --> 00:04:31.800 part of this BTK task force where they're actually looking 77 00:04:31.800 --> 00:04:34.279 to see if he is involved in some additional murders 78 00:04:34.600 --> 00:04:38.600 in Oklahoma, which I'm interested in hearing about that. Oklahoma, Kansas, 79 00:04:38.680 --> 00:04:40.959 and Missouri. So I think it's going to be a 80 00:04:40.959 --> 00:04:42.920 fun time. Let's bring Cloyd on. I don't want to 81 00:04:42.959 --> 00:04:46.560 waste any time. How are you. It's good to meet 82 00:04:46.639 --> 00:04:49.079 you face to face in person, so. 83 00:04:50.519 --> 00:04:51.680 Welcome, Thanks for having me. 84 00:04:52.600 --> 00:04:56.079 Nice Hey, Cloyd, Tell everybody, tell everybody kind of how 85 00:04:56.959 --> 00:04:59.240 I touched upon it, but you can speak on it 86 00:04:59.240 --> 00:05:02.000 a lot more eloqui that I can tell everybody kind 87 00:05:02.040 --> 00:05:05.399 of what made you interested in becoming a police officer 88 00:05:05.480 --> 00:05:07.600 from the from the beginning. 89 00:05:08.120 --> 00:05:10.360 Well, I mean it was like all kids. It was 90 00:05:10.439 --> 00:05:14.720 TV shows, Adam twelve and you know, Police Story and 91 00:05:14.800 --> 00:05:16.480 all that stuff like that. That looks like a pretty cool 92 00:05:16.519 --> 00:05:18.480 way to make a living. And so I decided, I 93 00:05:18.480 --> 00:05:20.279 think that's what I'm going to do. And you know, 94 00:05:20.319 --> 00:05:22.279 I told my parents I was gonna yeah yeah, right, yeah, 95 00:05:22.319 --> 00:05:25.360 yeah yeah. But I never waivered, and I kept I 96 00:05:25.399 --> 00:05:27.560 read every book I could, nonfiction book about how to 97 00:05:27.560 --> 00:05:30.720 become a police officer, and I in my school libraries, 98 00:05:30.720 --> 00:05:34.079 public libraries and worked their way and then all the 99 00:05:34.079 --> 00:05:38.680 way through and went to school major criminal Justice. And 100 00:05:38.720 --> 00:05:42.600 then when I was twenty and a half, I picked 101 00:05:42.680 --> 00:05:44.639 up the phone. I called the police Parker and they said, 102 00:05:44.639 --> 00:05:46.920 are you hiring it? And I said, they go, yeah, 103 00:05:47.000 --> 00:05:49.800 we are. So they sent me this application along with 104 00:05:49.800 --> 00:05:51.959 a test pack. It was like one hundred and fifty pages, 105 00:05:52.720 --> 00:05:55.639 and so I basically memory. I saw one hundred and 106 00:05:55.680 --> 00:05:59.199 fifty pages and then I wasn't even twenty one yet 107 00:05:59.199 --> 00:06:02.279 now even Well, but I went to the took the test, 108 00:06:02.360 --> 00:06:07.279 and it was a weekend test, about two thousand people tested, 109 00:06:07.680 --> 00:06:09.279 and I thought, oh man, there's no way I'm getting 110 00:06:09.319 --> 00:06:12.360 hired here. And then carton the mail a little while 111 00:06:12.399 --> 00:06:15.399 later said you're number thirteen on the list scheduling to 112 00:06:15.399 --> 00:06:17.879 come inted background investigator. And you know, it was just 113 00:06:17.920 --> 00:06:19.800 so that's what happened. Next thing I knew, I was 114 00:06:19.839 --> 00:06:23.399 standing in a uniform and running a patrol car. 115 00:06:24.120 --> 00:06:26.079 And so when you started with the police department, as 116 00:06:26.319 --> 00:06:29.120 I think, it's pretty much customary across this country where everybody, 117 00:06:29.240 --> 00:06:32.560 everybody starts in the uniform out in the patrol car, right, 118 00:06:32.600 --> 00:06:34.600 And so you did that, and you worked the streets, 119 00:06:34.639 --> 00:06:36.160 and you worked in a relative what was that area 120 00:06:36.199 --> 00:06:37.879 called because it's a relatively rough area. 121 00:06:38.240 --> 00:06:40.680 Yeah, it was Rainier Valley. Yeah, we used to call 122 00:06:40.759 --> 00:06:43.839 it back then. It's all gentrified now, of course. And 123 00:06:43.920 --> 00:06:45.800 I have a son that works at the area right now, 124 00:06:45.959 --> 00:06:47.959 And I said, we didn't have Starbucks in here when 125 00:06:48.000 --> 00:06:50.399 I worked out here. You know, we just call it 126 00:06:50.399 --> 00:06:52.519 the Rainier Valley Knife and Gun Club. 127 00:06:53.560 --> 00:06:57.800 So yeah, because two of your three kids, actually two, yeah, 128 00:06:57.800 --> 00:06:59.519 you have two kids that are actually Seattle cops. 129 00:06:59.560 --> 00:07:02.360 Is that right? Well, my oldest isn't anymore. He left 130 00:07:02.639 --> 00:07:04.759 and moved to Arizona and is doing other things now. 131 00:07:04.800 --> 00:07:06.920 But my middle son is Yeah. 132 00:07:06.879 --> 00:07:10.519 Okay, does he have just incidentally, does he aspire to 133 00:07:10.720 --> 00:07:12.519 one day be a homicide detective himself? 134 00:07:12.600 --> 00:07:15.600 I don't really. You know, he did a temporary duty 135 00:07:15.600 --> 00:07:17.800 in sex crimes and like that, so I don't know. 136 00:07:17.839 --> 00:07:20.439 I haven't really talked to him about it lately. Yeah. 137 00:07:20.839 --> 00:07:22.560 So so you go from there. 138 00:07:22.439 --> 00:07:24.720 And basically a wild time. 139 00:07:26.000 --> 00:07:31.040 Yeah, he's had a wild time. I'm sorry you cut out. 140 00:07:31.399 --> 00:07:32.600 You said he had a wild time. 141 00:07:33.240 --> 00:07:36.399 Oh yeah, he's had a while. He's doing a shooting 142 00:07:36.439 --> 00:07:38.600 and all kinds of stuff going on down there, you know. 143 00:07:38.720 --> 00:07:41.560 But yeah, yeah, it's kind of leveled out right now. 144 00:07:41.600 --> 00:07:45.759 But well, when you got

on in Seattle and and 145 00:07:45.959 --> 00:07:49.199 I mean, I'm gonna were you were you? Are you 146 00:07:49.240 --> 00:07:50.759 from that area essentially? 147 00:07:51.879 --> 00:07:53.759 Yeah? I grew up in the suburbs. 148 00:07:53.800 --> 00:07:56.879 Yeah, okay, So you get on there and what was 149 00:07:56.879 --> 00:07:58.879 your what was kind of your journey? 150 00:08:00.759 --> 00:08:02.240 I just got want to put me in Reading Valley. 151 00:08:02.279 --> 00:08:04.160 I'd never even been in raiding value in my life, 152 00:08:04.399 --> 00:08:06.600 so I didn't know my way around at all. It 153 00:08:06.639 --> 00:08:09.399 was like foreign to me. But my journey was basically, 154 00:08:09.439 --> 00:08:11.959 you know, I'm just I enjoyed being patrol officer at 155 00:08:11.959 --> 00:08:13.920 a good time. I worked eighty night to four in 156 00:08:13.959 --> 00:08:18.480 the morning, and I just rolled with it for a while. 157 00:08:19.120 --> 00:08:21.120 And it wasn't until later I was working in a 158 00:08:21.160 --> 00:08:22.920 different part of town. I thought, well, I'm we're going 159 00:08:22.959 --> 00:08:25.480 to do this detective thing. I better get moving. So 160 00:08:25.839 --> 00:08:29.319 I took the detectives test and got hired, and I 161 00:08:29.319 --> 00:08:32.080 got on the eligibility list, and then my first job 162 00:08:32.159 --> 00:08:35.519 was at the East Precinct, just as a precinct detective, 163 00:08:35.519 --> 00:08:38.559 a generalist, doing a lot of property crimes and things 164 00:08:38.600 --> 00:08:43.240 like that, and did that for two years, and then 165 00:08:43.519 --> 00:08:45.799 I thought, well, I can't. I'm not some of those 166 00:08:45.840 --> 00:08:47.799 guys stay in that job forever. I wasn't going to 167 00:08:47.879 --> 00:08:52.320 be me. So I just decided the next likely step 168 00:08:52.399 --> 00:08:56.360 was into sex crimes. Excuse me, sex crimes. And I'd 169 00:08:56.360 --> 00:08:59.639 had a sergeant who was in the precinct detective with 170 00:08:59.679 --> 00:09:02.200 me that answer to sex crimes, so I got hold 171 00:09:02.240 --> 00:09:03.639 of them and the next thing I know, I'm in 172 00:09:03.639 --> 00:09:07.320 sex crimes. Did that for two years, and you know, 173 00:09:07.360 --> 00:09:10.720 that's a sweatshops, a lot of stuff going on, and 174 00:09:11.080 --> 00:09:12.720 a lot of cases. I learned a lot of good 175 00:09:12.720 --> 00:09:16.519 stuff about in derogation and handling you know, bad people. 176 00:09:17.159 --> 00:09:20.799 And basically at that time, sex crimes said the office 177 00:09:20.840 --> 00:09:24.039 right next to the homicide unit, and so they saw, 178 00:09:24.120 --> 00:09:25.679 you know, I'd be bringing people in the handcuffs all 179 00:09:25.720 --> 00:09:27.600 the time. And finally one of the startenest comes over says, 180 00:09:27.960 --> 00:09:31.919 you want to work homicide? They went, and I said, oh, yeah, sure, 181 00:09:31.960 --> 00:09:33.519 I said to me, and said, going, hell, yes, I 182 00:09:33.519 --> 00:09:36.600 want to work. And next thing I knew, I got orders. 183 00:09:36.600 --> 00:09:37.480 I was in homicide. 184 00:09:38.720 --> 00:09:40.840 Was there any particular cases that kind of made you 185 00:09:40.919 --> 00:09:43.639 interested in homicide back when you were a kid, because 186 00:09:43.679 --> 00:09:45.759 you were you were thinking about doing that when you 187 00:09:45.799 --> 00:09:47.519 were much younger. 188 00:09:47.639 --> 00:09:51.000 Much younger. Yeah, I mean there was you know, there 189 00:09:51.039 --> 00:09:54.279 were the Tid Bundy cases and stuff up here. I'd 190 00:09:54.279 --> 00:09:58.240 read about that here about that other stuff, and I just, uh, 191 00:09:58.879 --> 00:10:02.759 I don't know red books about it and true crime stuff. 192 00:10:02.840 --> 00:10:04.480 You know, I don't read that crap anymore, but I 193 00:10:04.600 --> 00:10:08.519 used to. And that's a that's a good job, that's 194 00:10:08.639 --> 00:10:11.720 I want to do that. And so I did, and 195 00:10:11.960 --> 00:10:15.279 you know, and I started working homicide and it was 196 00:10:15.320 --> 00:10:16.080 a wild ride. 197 00:10:17.200 --> 00:10:19.320 Yeah, so you get when you finally get to homicide, 198 00:10:19.360 --> 00:10:22.240 you get there after two years of working in sex crimes, 199 00:10:22.279 --> 00:10:24.840 and and then when you started there, tell me, tell 200 00:10:24.879 --> 00:10:26.399 me kind of like, what what what it was like 201 00:10:26.440 --> 00:10:30.200 for you when you first started in the homicide Well, you're. 202 00:10:29.480 --> 00:10:31.600 The newbie in the unit, you know, so you know, 203 00:10:31.600 --> 00:10:34.080 you don't have any You just go where you're told 204 00:10:34.120 --> 00:10:35.399 to go and do what you're told to do. And 205 00:10:35.440 --> 00:10:37.679 that's what I did, you know, much later, I for 206 00:10:37.799 --> 00:10:40.039 years I was the senior guy in a homicide unit, 207 00:10:40.360 --> 00:10:42.360 so I didn't have to tell anybody anything, not even 208 00:10:42.399 --> 00:10:44.879 my commanders. They would go into me and aspectation do 209 00:10:44.879 --> 00:10:48.879 in certain situations. But but yeah, I just uh, I 210 00:10:48.960 --> 00:10:52.799 just did what you know, I get. I'd get the 211 00:10:52.799 --> 00:10:53.960 phone and ring in the middle of the night, and 212 00:10:54.039 --> 00:10:56.480 I was up and out and to work, you know, 213 00:10:56.519 --> 00:11:01.200 and sometimes working eighteen hours after the phone rings, you know, 214 00:11:01.240 --> 00:11:03.840 straight through, maybe even longer. I mean I think the 215 00:11:03.879 --> 00:11:06.559 longest I ever worked in one solid stretch on a 216 00:11:06.600 --> 00:11:10.519 call is like thirty four hours of continuous work, no breaks, 217 00:11:11.080 --> 00:11:12.679

and I mean breaks, I mean I have a couple 218 00:11:12.679 --> 00:11:14.679 of coffee or something. But I worked thirty four hours 219 00:11:14.720 --> 00:11:17.879 straight through a couple of times. Actually, so because once 220 00:11:17.879 --> 00:11:19.559 you're on that, once you're on the hunt and on 221 00:11:19.720 --> 00:11:22.519 the trail, you can't just break away. You got to 222 00:11:22.559 --> 00:11:25.480 stay with it, right, And you know, I was pretty successful. 223 00:11:25.519 --> 00:11:28.639 I had a you know, really really high my partners 224 00:11:28.639 --> 00:11:30.240 and I had really high clearance rate as a matter 225 00:11:30.240 --> 00:11:33.399 of fact, but last two or three years of homicide, 226 00:11:34.240 --> 00:11:37.159 we had one hundred percent clearance rate the only time. 227 00:11:37.200 --> 00:11:39.440 And so but we worked our asses off, you know. 228 00:11:39.600 --> 00:11:42.240 It was it was it was a grind and it's 229 00:11:42.279 --> 00:11:43.960 blood money. When I first got in there, one of 230 00:11:44.000 --> 00:11:45.720 the older guys said to me, you know, this is 231 00:11:45.759 --> 00:11:47.080 a great job, but I want you to know it's 232 00:11:47.120 --> 00:11:50.440 blood money, you know, because you and he was right, 233 00:11:50.559 --> 00:11:52.759 it was blood money, because I mean, you takes a 234 00:11:52.759 --> 00:11:55.480 lot of stuff away from your personal life and your 235 00:11:55.519 --> 00:11:58.759 family life. You know how many things I missed because 236 00:11:58.799 --> 00:12:03.360 I was working, and but but I always made like 237 00:12:03.440 --> 00:12:07.159 I had My boys were in high school, and if 238 00:12:07.200 --> 00:12:08.960 I was working later on a case and they had 239 00:12:09.000 --> 00:12:11.279 a high school football game, I would leave and go 240 00:12:11.320 --> 00:12:13.519 to their game, watch it, and then go back to 241 00:12:13.559 --> 00:12:15.879 work because that was a priority, and you got to 242 00:12:15.919 --> 00:12:17.960 do stuff like that make your kids a priority. You 243 00:12:18.000 --> 00:12:21.840 have to have interest outside of work. Although I didn't 244 00:12:21.879 --> 00:12:23.279 have a lot of time for that, but I did, 245 00:12:23.759 --> 00:12:28.039 and so, I mean it was wild. I did just 246 00:12:28.080 --> 00:12:29.840 about every time I murder you can think of I. 247 00:12:29.840 --> 00:12:33.639 I personally was primarily two serial killer cases and I 248 00:12:33.720 --> 00:12:37.360 arrested both of them. And you know, it was it was. 249 00:12:37.879 --> 00:12:39.480 It was a great job. I had a great career. 250 00:12:40.559 --> 00:12:42.480 Yeah, when you when you first got into the unit, 251 00:12:42.559 --> 00:12:45.120 did you was it like they were like, come on, kid, 252 00:12:45.159 --> 00:12:47.240 let me show you how to do this, or or 253 00:12:48.399 --> 00:12:49.840 on your own kind of a deal. 254 00:12:49.919 --> 00:12:51.559 Well, no, no, they were. Most of them were pretty good. 255 00:12:51.600 --> 00:12:55.120 There were some guys there that were so old school 256 00:12:55.360 --> 00:12:57.759 that I'm thinking, what are they doing? You know, I 257 00:12:57.759 --> 00:12:59.759 didn't say anything, but I'm thinking that, now, what do 258 00:12:59.840 --> 00:13:01.480 they doing? Because they just were kind of going with 259 00:13:01.519 --> 00:13:04.120 a flow and not really they were just old dogs 260 00:13:04.200 --> 00:13:07.799 and they would soon retire. And they weren't as they 261 00:13:07.799 --> 00:13:10.279 weren't as I was a fly by the seat of 262 00:13:10.279 --> 00:13:12.720 my pants kind of guy. Some of those other guys 263 00:13:12.720 --> 00:13:14.879 were checklist guys and Okay, first we do this, then 264 00:13:14.879 --> 00:13:16.879 we do that, then we do that, And the problem 265 00:13:16.919 --> 00:13:19.279 with that it doesn't allow you to veer off as 266 00:13:19.360 --> 00:13:22.519 circumstances changed, so I didn't become that guy I would 267 00:13:22.519 --> 00:13:26.559 be running. I always say the best times they ever 268 00:13:26.639 --> 00:13:29.279 had is when I get a call of a murder 269 00:13:29.279 --> 00:13:32.720 and I get there and the person did and I 270 00:13:32.759 --> 00:13:34.600 don't know who the person the victim is, I don't 271 00:13:34.600 --> 00:13:38.000 know wh what happened, don't know anything. But then fifteen 272 00:13:38.039 --> 00:13:40.799 hours later, I'm booking a suspect into jail after getting 273 00:13:40.879 --> 00:13:44.320 professional from That's the best, that's the fun. Yeah. 274 00:13:44.759 --> 00:13:47.120 Yeah, I'll tell you what I Sunday night, I got 275 00:13:47.120 --> 00:13:48.559 called in on a murder. It was I was the 276 00:13:48.600 --> 00:13:51.159 lead on it, and so I can relate a little bit. 277 00:13:51.200 --> 00:13:54.240 But I spent the next twenty four hours at work 278 00:13:54.480 --> 00:13:58.519 and which was which I'll tell you what, Cloyd. It's brutal, 279 00:13:58.559 --> 00:14:00.720 because probably the worst time to get called out on 280 00:14:00.759 --> 00:14:04.120 a murder is at ten pm, right right now you 281 00:14:04.159 --> 00:14:06.679 go to bed. And I was like, oh my gosh, 282 00:14:06.720 --> 00:14:08.279 I already know what's going to happen to me, and 283 00:14:08.559 --> 00:14:11.320 I'm still recovering on it. That was. That was Sunday night, 284 00:14:11.440 --> 00:14:12.919 and I'm and I'm still not the same. 285 00:14:13.000 --> 00:14:15.000 Yeah. Really, that's one of the reasons I left when 286 00:14:15.039 --> 00:14:17.919 I was younger, I could recover quickly, but when I 287 00:14:17.960 --> 00:14:20.240 got older, it would take me three or four days 288 00:14:20.279 --> 00:14:24.320 to recover. I got it was one week, and I 289 00:14:24.360 --> 00:14:28.480 got called four nights in a row, all between midnight 290

00:14:28.519 --> 00:14:31.519 and one am, all the good murders. And it was like, 291 00:14:32.000 --> 00:14:34.279 as a matter of fact, on the fourth night when 292 00:14:34.279 --> 00:14:36.159 my phone rang, and I looked at the clock and 293 00:14:36.200 --> 00:14:38.720 I said, like twelve thirty seven. I picked up the 294 00:14:38.720 --> 00:14:43.120 phone and I said, are you kidding me? My starteant said, well, 295 00:14:43.120 --> 00:14:46.919 good morning to you too, cloy kind of tell me 296 00:14:47.799 --> 00:14:48.480 sleeping again? 297 00:14:49.039 --> 00:14:51.240 Well tell me, you know, for for me, I'm just 298 00:14:51.320 --> 00:14:53.519 kind of you know, actually, ladies and gentlemen, this is 299 00:14:53.519 --> 00:14:55.960 fun for me because this is like me going to school, 300 00:14:56.120 --> 00:14:58.039 you know, really to listen to what he's got to say. 301 00:14:58.360 --> 00:15:01.960 And so for for for your unit, how many detectives 302 00:15:02.000 --> 00:15:04.600 did you guys have? How many murders? And how did 303 00:15:04.600 --> 00:15:06.519 you guys determine when who was going to be up? 304 00:15:06.840 --> 00:15:07.440 Kind of a deal. 305 00:15:09.799 --> 00:15:11.799 Well, yeah, we had a we had well, we had 306 00:15:12.200 --> 00:15:16.159 like twenty two detectives working in two man teams, and 307 00:15:16.200 --> 00:15:18.519 there was a roster next up, next up, next step, 308 00:15:18.559 --> 00:15:20.600 and whenever if you're next step, we used to have 309 00:15:20.639 --> 00:15:23.200 a there was a skull on a stick, and if 310 00:15:23.200 --> 00:15:25.480 you're next step, we'd hang it on the cubicle with 311 00:15:25.519 --> 00:15:27.840 you or you and your partners. So everybody knew that's 312 00:15:27.840 --> 00:15:30.080 who's the next step for a murder. And then so 313 00:15:30.399 --> 00:15:34.080 whenever it happened, wherever, whenever you're getting called in, we 314 00:15:34.120 --> 00:15:36.360 also had stand by detectives. You take a week where 315 00:15:36.360 --> 00:15:38.799 you're going to it may not be your case, but 316 00:15:38.840 --> 00:15:41.440 you're going in to help if if that's when I 317 00:15:41.440 --> 00:15:43.759 got to four in a row, they weren't my cases, 318 00:15:43.799 --> 00:15:45.440 but I went into help because I was on stand by. 319 00:15:45.559 --> 00:15:47.960 Because you know, it takes more than two detectives at 320 00:15:48.000 --> 00:15:49.960 a homicide scene. It takes a bunch more infant in 321 00:15:50.000 --> 00:15:52.240 the middle of the night. Yeah, during the day, it's 322 00:15:52.279 --> 00:15:54.879 not a problem. But yeah, but they never hardly ever 323 00:15:55.080 --> 00:15:58.080 did murders during business hours. They're always in the middle 324 00:15:58.080 --> 00:15:58.440 of the night. 325 00:15:59.279 --> 00:16:02.000 Yeah. Yeah, they're usually over really stupid reasons. 326 00:16:02.600 --> 00:16:05.399 Yeah. So yeah, people things. 327 00:16:05.759 --> 00:16:09.440 Yeah, most of them are not dateline mysteries, trust me, 328 00:16:09.519 --> 00:16:11.720 they're they're really over ridiculous things. 329 00:16:12.080 --> 00:16:12.519 Oh yeah. 330 00:16:12.559 --> 00:16:14.360 So so you you end up starting there and you're 331 00:16:14.360 --> 00:16:15.879 there for a couple of years and you're starting to 332 00:16:15.879 --> 00:16:18.120 get you're starting to get an idea as to what 333 00:16:18.120 --> 00:16:21.159 you're doing. And I would, I would, and it was 334 00:16:21.200 --> 00:16:24.000 it was you know, you worked there for twenty two years, Cloyd. 335 00:16:24.440 --> 00:16:26.360 Is that is that kind of the norm? Is that 336 00:16:26.440 --> 00:16:28.799 kind of the norm? I would think that that's really 337 00:16:29.519 --> 00:16:31.600 I mean, I'm just a little over. I'm a little 338 00:16:31.639 --> 00:16:36.360 over sixteen years and and it's pretty rare for especially 339 00:16:36.399 --> 00:16:37.919 with the younger generation all day. 340 00:16:38.320 --> 00:16:41.440 Most people ten to fifteen years. And that's it because well, 341 00:16:41.480 --> 00:16:43.679 first of all, it's hard to get into homicide usually, 342 00:16:44.159 --> 00:16:46.440 and so the people that getting are later in their career, 343 00:16:47.240 --> 00:16:49.519 so they're not you know, they're going to retire people. 344 00:16:49.639 --> 00:16:52.159 I mean, sometimes it happens where people transfer out a homicide, 345 00:16:53.080 --> 00:16:55.759 you know and go somewhere else. Usually that's because they 346 00:16:56.240 --> 00:16:57.720 they don't feel that they know how to do the 347 00:16:57.799 --> 00:16:59.399 job right and they just say I can't do this 348 00:16:59.559 --> 00:17:01.759 job or something bothers, or they don't like getting called 349 00:17:01.799 --> 00:17:03.960 out offense to the lead. Not very many though, a 350 00:17:04.000 --> 00:17:06.359 few here and there. But yeah, twenty two is a 351 00:17:06.359 --> 00:17:08.920 long time. I mean, there were there were, there are 352 00:17:08.920 --> 00:17:11.200 a few people that in my career that were close 353 00:17:11.240 --> 00:17:13.839 to that or around that, But yeah, like I said, 354 00:17:13.839 --> 00:17:21.240 the last several uh, the last several years I was there. 355 00:17:21.440 --> 00:17:23.880 I was a senior guy in the whole unit. I had, 356 00:17:24.079 --> 00:17:27.400 I had, I had not only did have seniority everybody else, 357 00:17:27.440 --> 00:17:29.440 both in the unit and the department. I had senured 358 00:17:29.519 --> 00:17:32.400 over my sergeant, my lieutenant, my captain, and even the 359 00:17:32.400 --> 00:17:34.640 bureau chief. So I mean I was. 360 00:17:34.960 --> 00:17:37.440 I'd been, I mean on the on the actual department, 361 00:17:37.640 --> 00:17:38.559 on the department, my. 362 00:17:38.519 --> 00:17:41.799 Time on the department. Yeah, I had seen all of

them. Yeah. 363 00:17:41.839 --> 00:17:43.759 So as you were there and you're working there, tell me, 364 00:17:43.799 --> 00:17:46.160 tell me some of the things that that you found 365 00:17:46.400 --> 00:17:49.359 to be really good attributes for that, for the detectives 366 00:17:49.799 --> 00:17:51.680 that that were in the unit that were really good, 367 00:17:52.000 --> 00:17:53.559 and and some of the things that you kind of 368 00:17:53.559 --> 00:17:55.400 saw that weren't really that good. 369 00:17:55.880 --> 00:17:58.599 Well, first of all, observation is the most important thing. 370 00:17:59.039 --> 00:18:01.400 Being able to reserve, go to a scene, look at 371 00:18:01.440 --> 00:18:03.000 and just stand there and look at it and read 372 00:18:03.079 --> 00:18:05.079 the scene. It takes a while before you're able to 373 00:18:05.119 --> 00:18:07.480 do that, but by the end I could sit and 374 00:18:07.480 --> 00:18:10.319 tell and have a pretty good idea what happened. And 375 00:18:10.359 --> 00:18:12.839 then also you have to have a really good memory 376 00:18:13.319 --> 00:18:15.480 and a quick wit because interview and interrogation is a 377 00:18:15.559 --> 00:18:18.599 very important part. And I taught interview and interrogations for 378 00:18:18.680 --> 00:18:21.039 like the last six or seven years of my career, 379 00:18:21.119 --> 00:18:24.160 not just to homicide detectors, with the detectives everywhere, and 380 00:18:24.680 --> 00:18:28.160 not just in Washington State either around the country. And 381 00:18:28.359 --> 00:18:30.200 you know, the thing is, you're talking to these guys, 382 00:18:30.440 --> 00:18:33.000 and these things might last three or four hours, and 383 00:18:33.079 --> 00:18:35.319 you ask one question one way and he gives you 384 00:18:35.319 --> 00:18:37.240 an answer, and then an hour and a half later 385 00:18:38.039 --> 00:18:39.799 you ask the same question in a different way and 386 00:18:39.799 --> 00:18:41.400 they give you a different answer. And you got to remember. 387 00:18:41.440 --> 00:18:43.240 You got to be able to remember, and that's not 388 00:18:43.279 --> 00:18:45.799 what you said earlier. Yes it is, No, it isn't. 389 00:18:45.799 --> 00:18:47.720 This is being recorded. You want me to play it 390 00:18:47.720 --> 00:18:50.680 back for you. And the reason is when you're telling 391 00:18:50.680 --> 00:18:52.359 the truth, you can say the same thing over and 392 00:18:52.359 --> 00:18:54.680 over and over again. But if you're lying, you're throwing 393 00:18:54.680 --> 00:18:56.440 out stuff at the cuff of the spur of the moment, 394 00:18:56.839 --> 00:18:58.920 and you don't remember what you said and you forget it, 395 00:18:58.960 --> 00:19:00.640 and then you try to guess what you said later. 396 00:19:01.039 --> 00:19:03.200 And that was the big hook, you know, pointing out 397 00:19:03.200 --> 00:19:06.119 all lies or ridiculous stories and things like that. So 398

00:19:07.640 --> 00:19:10.400 that's that's that's what that was. The those are the 399 00:19:10.440 --> 00:19:11.160 things you need. 400 00:19:12.200 --> 00:19:14.960 Yeah, that's where the money is. Actually, we don't solve 401 00:19:15.039 --> 00:19:17.799 cases off. We don't solve cases off DNA and fingerprints. 402 00:19:17.799 --> 00:19:21.519 That's yeah. I mean they helped, but they do help. 403 00:19:22.000 --> 00:19:27.359 But yeah, by uh my uh interview, interrogation, it was 404 00:19:27.400 --> 00:19:29.960 my specialty. I remember speaking of DNA though. I had 405 00:19:29.960 --> 00:19:33.640 a guy, a brutal, brutal murder. This one has been 406 00:19:33.680 --> 00:19:37.319 on this case has been on Investigate, Discovery, Oxygen, and 407 00:19:37.519 --> 00:19:40.720 like four different shows highlight this case. And every time 408 00:19:40.759 --> 00:19:42.000 they called me they want to do the guy said, 409 00:19:42.000 --> 00:19:43.759 you know this has been done three times before, right, 410 00:19:44.440 --> 00:19:48.599 But anyway, this guy, they butchered this navy uh retired 411 00:19:48.680 --> 00:19:52.160 navy guy for his coin collection and just literally almost 412 00:19:52.160 --> 00:19:54.480 cut his head off and we got some. The guy 413 00:19:54.519 --> 00:19:56.720 actually cut himself, so we got DNA there. We didn't 414 00:19:56.720 --> 00:19:58.759 know whose it was, and this guy had no criminal history, 415 00:19:58.759 --> 00:20:01.920 so he wasn't in the him. He wasn't the primary person, 416 00:20:01.920 --> 00:20:05.720 but he was helping and I had talked to him 417 00:20:05.720 --> 00:20:08.079 before this and got some stuff from him. We got 418 00:20:08.079 --> 00:20:11.480 the thing back. He's our guy, and he said, the 419 00:20:11.519 --> 00:20:14.960 probability of this being not in him is fifty one 420 00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:19.559 in fifty four quintillion. Yeah. So the thing is, this's 421 00:20:19.599 --> 00:20:22.319 got Charles and I sat him down, I'm talking to him, 422 00:20:22.319 --> 00:20:24.920 and I said, that's one in fifty four quintillion, Charles, 423 00:20:25.240 --> 00:20:28.680 that's fifty four and eighteen zeros. After it, I said, 424 00:20:28.680 --> 00:20:30.680 how many people have lived on the planet? I live 425 00:20:30.759 --> 00:20:33.359 on the planets right now, seven or billion? How many 426 00:20:33.359 --> 00:20:35.240 people do you think lived on it in the entirety 427 00:20:35.240 --> 00:20:38.400 of the plant's history. Maybe a few more billion. You've 428 00:20:38.400 --> 00:20:42.319 still got a whole bunch of bunch of zeros to 429 00:20:43.680 --> 00:20:46.400 account for. And I said, you know, Charles, there's a 430 00:20:46.480 --> 00:20:49.160 legal term for this insuation you find yourself in today. 431 00:20:49.160 --> 00:20:54.000 He goes zero. It is goal. Yeah, you're and end 432 00:20:54.079 --> 00:20:56.319 up confessing, you know. And so that was when

we 433 00:20:56.400 --> 00:20:59.000 had DNA. But I'd already talked to him and got 434 00:20:59.000 --> 00:21:01.000 some other previous story before he told me, and he 435 00:21:01.039 --> 00:21:02.720 didn't remember what he told me before, and he's saying 436 00:21:02.720 --> 00:21:04.440 different stuff from at the beginning before I dropped the 437 00:21:04.519 --> 00:21:06.119 DNA bomb it on him. 438 00:21:06.480 --> 00:21:09.799 So what's really fascinating to me, Cloyd, is that in 439 00:21:09.839 --> 00:21:12.960 the span that you worked in homicide, just homicide, right, 440 00:21:13.880 --> 00:21:16.720 you started in homicide in what ninety four is that when. 441 00:21:16.559 --> 00:21:17.960 It was orty four. 442 00:21:18.519 --> 00:21:21.720 So you get into homicide in ninety four, and you 443 00:21:21.759 --> 00:21:24.440 were there till twenty and sixteen, there was a lot 444 00:21:24.480 --> 00:21:27.200 of different you know, DNA was just you know, okay, 445 00:21:27.240 --> 00:21:29.200 it had just happened in ninety three, ninety four. 446 00:21:29.559 --> 00:21:32.400 Now then I killed it when I started to get 447 00:21:32.440 --> 00:21:35.000 in the DNA sample. You needed a biological sample the 448 00:21:35.039 --> 00:21:38.279 size of a quarter. Now you only need a few cells, 449 00:21:38.440 --> 00:21:40.839 and only that. They wouldn't just there was no database, 450 00:21:40.880 --> 00:21:43.240 There was no codis where they can just pull that 451 00:21:43.279 --> 00:21:45.599 out of things. And to get him to do to 452 00:21:45.920 --> 00:21:48.039 you had to have a guy you were pretty sure 453 00:21:48.119 --> 00:21:50.359 did it before they'd even compare it to him. You know, 454 00:21:50.359 --> 00:21:53.440 they wouldn't just they wouldn't just randomly compare it if 455 00:21:53.480 --> 00:21:55.279 you asked him to. You had to have a reason. 456 00:21:55.640 --> 00:21:58.920 And so it was huge all the changes that and 457 00:21:58.960 --> 00:22:02.519 the collection method as you talk about Jared Bradley, the MVAC, 458 00:22:02.680 --> 00:22:05.279 what a huge of course that was. After I left homicide, 459 00:22:05.279 --> 00:22:08.039 I was working at AG's office, But what a huge 460 00:22:08.240 --> 00:22:10.799 stuff that was. You get DNA off of all these 461 00:22:10.799 --> 00:22:14.000 different surfaces, you can never get them before, right, and 462 00:22:14.119 --> 00:22:16.400 so and then what you can do with them. And 463 00:22:17.160 --> 00:22:19.039 you know, like I said, a few, a few, just 464 00:22:19.079 --> 00:22:23.000 a few cells, you can get a DNA profile. 465 00:22:23.720 --> 00:22:25.720 Yeah. We just I just did a presentation in reference 466 00:22:25.759 --> 00:22:29.599 to the MVACT for for an organization that basically donates 467 00:22:29.640 --> 00:22:33.200 money to the police, and we just purchased one and 468 00:22:33.240 --> 00:22:36.559 they just got done validating it. So there's

gonna be 469 00:22:36.599 --> 00:22:39.559 some killers that are They should be sweating it because 470 00:22:39.839 --> 00:22:42.200 a very cases, there's no doubt about it. 471 00:22:42.400 --> 00:22:45.599 You know. The thing that also, these agencies have these 472 00:22:45.920 --> 00:22:48.440 thirty forty fifty year old cases just sitting in boxes 473 00:22:48.440 --> 00:22:51.680 on their on their shelves. Pull those things down. If 474 00:22:51.680 --> 00:22:54.559 you got the evidence, go have them MVACT because they're 475 00:22:54.599 --> 00:22:58.039 not going dead. They're finding DNA on stuff that's old. No, no, 476 00:22:58.200 --> 00:23:00.240 but you got it. Somebody's got to take somebody's got 477 00:23:00.240 --> 00:23:02.480 to take that thing down and look at it again. 478 00:23:02.960 --> 00:23:06.039 You know that it used to be it used to 479 00:23:06.119 --> 00:23:08.519 be a fifty okases unheard of, but now it's common. 480 00:23:09.079 --> 00:23:11.440 Well, Jared was telling me the oldest there's two cases 481 00:23:11.720 --> 00:23:13.599 that they've solved with the impact that go back to 482 00:23:13.640 --> 00:23:16.039 the fifties. Yeah, and I was like, oh my gosh, 483 00:23:16.119 --> 00:23:20.559 that's awesome, you know, so so. Yeah, and the technology 484 00:23:20.559 --> 00:23:23.319 that exists today, Cloyd. I I know that you probably said, 485 00:23:23.440 --> 00:23:25.359 I'll tell you what that murder I just got on Sunday. 486 00:23:25.599 --> 00:23:28.880 Holy cow, two years ago, man, we would have been 487 00:23:28.880 --> 00:23:31.440 really really hitting our head up against the wall. But 488 00:23:32.519 --> 00:23:34.160 you know, with the flock cameras and stuff, and I 489 00:23:34.160 --> 00:23:35.440 don't know if they've got them up in the cell 490 00:23:35.519 --> 00:23:38.640 area or not, but those flock cameras are game changers, 491 00:23:38.960 --> 00:23:39.160 you know. 492 00:23:39.799 --> 00:23:42.200 Yeah, well that's the thing with cell phones, off tracking 493 00:23:42.240 --> 00:23:44.599 cell phones and cameras. I forgot. I was going to 494 00:23:44.680 --> 00:23:47.920 tell you, ask me about good things and bad things. 495 00:23:47.960 --> 00:23:50.880 The bad thing. I've seen this too. The worst detectives 496 00:23:50.880 --> 00:23:52.960 in the world are the ones that go to your 497 00:23:53.000 --> 00:23:56.000 scene and decide what the answer is and only look 498 00:23:56.039 --> 00:23:59.680 for evidence that supports their thesis. You know, you got 499 00:23:59.680 --> 00:24:01.480 to go if you have it, you can have a 500 00:24:01.519 --> 00:24:04.079 working theory. But if all of a sudden the evidence 501 00:24:04.079 --> 00:24:06.160 points you're left, you got to go left. You got 502 00:24:06.160 --> 00:24:09.000 to follow the evidence and throw your theory out, you know. 503 00:24:09.240 --> 00:24:13.240 And I, yeah, I get this, I agree with that. Yeah, 504 00:24:13.319 --> 00:24:16.079 I mean you have to be open minded and uh 505 00:24:16.160 --> 00:24:17.480 not get tunnel vision for sure. 506 00:24:17.920 --> 00:24:20.640 And I don't know what happened and then then but 507 00:24:20.720 --> 00:24:23.960 they don't sometimes, you know. I remember the case of 508 00:24:24.039 --> 00:24:27.039 some people I work with. Well, it was a terrible case. 509 00:24:27.559 --> 00:24:30.359 Guy bound up killed and the next day we got 510 00:24:30.359 --> 00:24:32.359 a phone tip of what it was, and I told 511 00:24:32.440 --> 00:24:35.200 the detective, Oh, that's not what it was. It was this. 512 00:24:36.400 --> 00:24:40.319 A year later, it ended up it was exactly what 513 00:24:40.319 --> 00:24:43.039 that first phone tip said. And you'd wasted a year 514 00:24:43.559 --> 00:24:46.559 following all what he thought happened instead of what really happened. 515 00:24:46.799 --> 00:24:51.799 You know, that's terrible. That's nop. 516 00:24:52.000 --> 00:24:55.079 He locked. He locked himself. Uh, Cloyd, if you can 517 00:24:55.079 --> 00:24:56.559 hear me, you may have to click on that red 518 00:24:56.640 --> 00:24:59.200 box with the arrow down below, And if you click 519 00:24:59.240 --> 00:25:01.680 on that red box and then come back in on 520 00:25:01.720 --> 00:25:03.920 that link that I had sent you, it'll bring you 521 00:25:03.960 --> 00:25:12.000 back in and hopefully he's able to hear me. Sometimes 522 00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:16.920 this happens. I'm gonna type to him real quick. I 523 00:25:16.960 --> 00:25:19.160 think this is interesting stuff, ladies and gentlemen. This is 524 00:25:19.240 --> 00:25:21.160 kind of my thing. I like talking to you. I 525 00:25:21.200 --> 00:25:24.279 put a little survey out there on my YouTube page 526 00:25:24.599 --> 00:25:27.160 and I asked what people really wanted to see, and 527 00:25:27.799 --> 00:25:30.640 the winner was homicide detectives. They wanted to hear from 528 00:25:30.680 --> 00:25:43.680 these homicide guys. Sorry, give me a quick second. So anyway, 529 00:25:43.960 --> 00:25:45.799 we'll wait for Cloyd to come back in here. But 530 00:25:46.599 --> 00:25:49.839 he's right, He's absolutely right. You know, all of these 531 00:25:49.880 --> 00:25:53.839 cases are basically each one of these cases good. He's 532 00:25:53.839 --> 00:25:55.640 clicked out, so he'll probably come back in here in 533 00:25:55.640 --> 00:25:58.359 a quick minute. All of these cases there's a different story. 534 00:25:59.359 --> 00:26:03.839 You have different characters, different different personalities that you're dealing with, 535 00:26:04.880 --> 00:26:09.640 different scenes, and on and on and on, and you 536 00:26:09.720 --> 00:26:12.000 really need to keep an open mind as to what's 537 00:26:12.039 --> 00:26:14.839 going on and how to go forth on this and 538 00:26:14.920 --> 00:26:18.400 so forth. But uh, yeah, the case, the case that 539 00:26:18.480 --> 00:26:22.359 I

just recently helped goodies back, great there is yeah, right, 540 00:26:22.440 --> 00:26:25.440 I don't know what happened. It happens from time to time, 541 00:26:25.519 --> 00:26:28.319 no worries. So so you were saying something about, you know, 542 00:26:28.400 --> 00:26:31.359 getting tunnel vision and going down this road, and that's 543 00:26:31.440 --> 00:26:34.400 kind of the bad thing too. And yeah, I'll tell you. 544 00:26:34.400 --> 00:26:35.960 I'll tell you something that I've kind of noticed over 545 00:26:36.000 --> 00:26:39.799 the years, Cloyd, is that I've always number one, you'd 546 00:26:39.839 --> 00:26:42.200 said it's really hard to get into homicide and and 547 00:26:42.559 --> 00:26:44.839 and I'm gonna agree with that. But back when I 548 00:26:44.880 --> 00:26:46.680 applied for the unit, and I don't know. When I 549 00:26:46.759 --> 00:26:49.200 applied for the unit, man, there was like ten or 550 00:26:49.319 --> 00:26:52.480 to twelve to thirteen, just all stars that would apply 551 00:26:52.640 --> 00:26:55.519 for one one spot. And nowadays, man, you're lucky to 552 00:26:55.559 --> 00:26:59.839 get one to two. And quite frankly, I really hate 553 00:26:59.839 --> 00:27:01.519 it when I hear that people are going out and 554 00:27:01.599 --> 00:27:04.519 trying to recruit people, because I'm like, we shouldn't have 555 00:27:04.599 --> 00:27:06.599 to recruit people. I mean, they either want to be 556 00:27:06.720 --> 00:27:07.680 in here or they don't. 557 00:27:08.079 --> 00:27:12.200 Yeah, yeah, we should have the crew people. And I 558 00:27:12.359 --> 00:27:14.599 know this person and they're good guys to me, but 559 00:27:14.680 --> 00:27:15.799 they're not childers. 560 00:27:15.880 --> 00:27:16.000 You know. 561 00:27:17.240 --> 00:27:21.559 The thing is if My thing is if with supervisors, 562 00:27:21.559 --> 00:27:23.880 I didn't I never asked my supervisor what I should do. 563 00:27:24.480 --> 00:27:27.640 I just did it. If and if I need direct supervision, 564 00:27:27.680 --> 00:27:30.400 I shouldn't be here, you know, I should be. I 565 00:27:30.519 --> 00:27:32.000 was self motivated. I made a lot of my own 566 00:27:32.079 --> 00:27:34.799 cases that weren't even I didn't even get called it. 567 00:27:34.920 --> 00:27:36.880 Like I had snitches would call me and tell me 568 00:27:36.960 --> 00:27:39.640 about somebody trying to have the whole family killed, and 569 00:27:39.720 --> 00:27:41.759 so I just run with it and you know, do 570 00:27:41.880 --> 00:27:44.359 wires and everything and make the arrest. And I didn't 571 00:27:44.359 --> 00:27:46.599 wait for a call. And that's what you do you're 572 00:27:46.640 --> 00:27:47.400 going to be motivated. 573 00:27:48.000 --> 00:27:50.640 Yeah, actually that I do the same thing, Cloyd, And 574 00:27:51.079 --> 00:27:53.759 that's not always been embraced by previous supervisors, I can 575 00:27:53.839 --> 00:27:54.240 promise you. 576 00:27:54.720 --> 00:27:57.319 Yeah, well, most of the I don't know about it 577 00:27:57.359 --> 00:28:00.000 and tells it. In Seattle, most of the supervisors would 578 00:28:00.079 --> 00:28:04.480 never homicide detectors themselves. That's why don't he too. He 579 00:28:04.599 --> 00:28:07.319 doesn't know. He does. You know more about this than 580 00:28:07.400 --> 00:28:09.720 he does. Don't ask him, you know, tell him what 581 00:28:09.799 --> 00:28:12.119 you do. I'm sure, keep him on board, let him know, 582 00:28:12.400 --> 00:28:13.319 but don't ask. 583 00:28:14.000 --> 00:28:17.559 Yeah, I I I, I I rarely. Uh, I'll let 584 00:28:17.599 --> 00:28:18.920 him know when we're getting really close. 585 00:28:19.200 --> 00:28:19.400 Yeah. 586 00:28:20.440 --> 00:28:20.640 Yeah. 587 00:28:20.720 --> 00:28:24.759 We had one time they came in and he would 588 00:28:24.799 --> 00:28:26.920 brand new. He'd never been an homicide. He'd been a 589 00:28:27.000 --> 00:28:29.160 gang and detective for a little while. But we get 590 00:28:29.200 --> 00:28:30.559 called to a murder in the middle of the day 591 00:28:31.079 --> 00:28:34.920 and we're in this house and he's standing there pointing 592 00:28:34.960 --> 00:28:37.039 and giving people orders and what I was doing. I 593 00:28:37.039 --> 00:28:38.759 stopped and I just stared at him. I didn't say 594 00:28:38.759 --> 00:28:41.960 a word. I just stared at him, and he went, well, 595 00:28:42.319 --> 00:28:44.720 I guess I've been putting my place and walked down. Yeah, 596 00:28:44.759 --> 00:28:46.920 because you've never worked a murder we know what we're doing. 597 00:28:47.000 --> 00:28:49.839 We don't need your instructions. You know the thing, right, 598 00:28:50.839 --> 00:28:53.920 you know, no homicide detective, you need his ability to 599 00:28:54.039 --> 00:28:58.119 testify good in court. And I love testifying court. You know, 600 00:28:58.240 --> 00:28:59.880 it's a I always say there's a battle of the wits, 601 00:28:59.880 --> 00:29:02.759 and they came unarmed. You know, it's just like spurring 602 00:29:02.839 --> 00:29:05.480 with high price defense jurneys. I don't care because the 603 00:29:05.519 --> 00:29:08.160 facts are on my side. Right. You can't change the facts. 604 00:29:08.519 --> 00:29:12.599 And so I enjoyed testifying. And you know they you 605 00:29:12.839 --> 00:29:15.400 rush to judgment. No, I didn't. And you know I 606 00:29:15.440 --> 00:29:17.680 followed the evidence. And then I say, you know, if 607 00:29:17.680 --> 00:29:20.119 I'm driving in a town I don't know, and I 608 00:29:20.200 --> 00:29:22.319 see it sign it says freeway next left, I don't go. 609 00:29:22.359 --> 00:29:26.119 I wonder if it's down here. You know you follow 610 00:29:26.160 --> 00:29:26.680 the evidence. 611 00:29:26.839 --> 00:29:29.240 Yeah, yeah, I'll tell you what. You've probably set case 612 00:29:29.279 --> 00:29:32.079 agent on many a homicide cases. I'm I'm

gisting you 613 00:29:32.279 --> 00:29:34.559 know where you set their whole thing. And I've done that. 614 00:29:34.640 --> 00:29:36.400 I've done that a number of times too, probably more 615 00:29:36.440 --> 00:29:39.039 than anybody in my unit. And I'll tell you something. 616 00:29:41.160 --> 00:29:44.119 We suck at it as cops as far as testifying, 617 00:29:44.400 --> 00:29:47.000 by and large, you know, when you watch this uniform 618 00:29:47.039 --> 00:29:49.039 guys and stuff, and for whatever reason, and I don't 619 00:29:49.039 --> 00:29:50.920 know if it's like that in Seattle or not, but 620 00:29:51.000 --> 00:29:53.960 they don't they don't spend any time, little to no 621 00:29:54.119 --> 00:29:57.039 time of actually teaching them how to testify when they're 622 00:29:57.079 --> 00:29:58.839 in the academy. And it's kind of a it's kind 623 00:29:58.839 --> 00:30:01.319 of a shame because it's such a huge part of 624 00:30:01.480 --> 00:30:04.799 what we do and and today's and today's a different 625 00:30:04.839 --> 00:30:08.279 time because today you know that jury, they just don't 626 00:30:08.319 --> 00:30:11.119 believe everything coming out of a CoP's mouth anymore. Things 627 00:30:11.200 --> 00:30:11.960 have changed, you know. 628 00:30:12.640 --> 00:30:16.279 So I've always found to tell people is answer the 629 00:30:16.400 --> 00:30:19.880 question they asked. You don't offer anything else. And sometimes 630 00:30:19.920 --> 00:30:22.319 they ask stupid questions and you answer it. How do 631 00:30:22.319 --> 00:30:25.000 you get mad? Well, you asked me this? This? This 632 00:30:25.160 --> 00:30:28.920 is the answer to that question. Do you have another question? Right? Right? 633 00:30:29.880 --> 00:30:31.920 So you're doing this. You do this for you know, 634 00:30:32.039 --> 00:30:34.240 from the time you go from from that period to 635 00:30:34.559 --> 00:30:38.079 when you retire, and you you ended up spending what 636 00:30:38.279 --> 00:30:40.200 was it was it thirty six years at the at 637 00:30:40.240 --> 00:30:44.559 the Seattle Police Department roughly, and what did you do 638 00:30:44.839 --> 00:30:46.359 following that? What did what did you end up? 639 00:30:47.160 --> 00:30:50.279 What did you We have a unit of the state 640 00:30:50.359 --> 00:30:52.160 in the Attorney General's Office, Like you said, the State 641 00:30:52.200 --> 00:30:54.680 Attorney JO they have a unit called HITS. It sans 642 00:30:54.720 --> 00:30:58.680 for Homicide Investigation Tracking System, and it's kind kind of like, uh, 643 00:30:59.559 --> 00:31:04.359 it's kind of of like VISCAP, but for Washington, Oregon. 644 00:31:05.039 --> 00:31:07.880 They we get we get data on and most of 645 00:31:07.880 --> 00:31:10.839 the investigators that work there are retired homicide detectives from 646 00:31:10.839 --> 00:31:13.039 different agencies around the state. And then we have some 647 00:31:13.119 --> 00:31:16.839 analysts and every murder that happens, one of the investigators 648 00:31:16.920 --> 00:31:19.359 goes to that police department and gets the information and 649 00:31:19.440 --> 00:31:21.839 it gets entered into a data bank. And we also, 650 00:31:22.680 --> 00:31:25.400 like a lot of smaller departments who don't have many murders, 651 00:31:25.440 --> 00:31:27.680 when they get one, we offer our help. We'll help 652 00:31:27.720 --> 00:31:29.599 you with this, you know well, And so one of 653 00:31:29.680 --> 00:31:32.400 our guys will go be there, not to take over 654 00:31:32.480 --> 00:31:36.000 the case, but just to give give to kind of 655 00:31:36.039 --> 00:31:37.920 coach them and through this case and what they need 656 00:31:38.000 --> 00:31:39.519 to do or if they have a cold case they 657 00:31:39.599 --> 00:31:42.759 need reviewed. They send us the file and we give 658 00:31:42.799 --> 00:31:44.799 it to three or four I always took on myself 659 00:31:45.960 --> 00:31:49.400 detectives and we and we thrush it. Then we have 660 00:31:49.480 --> 00:31:51.240 a meeting and talk about it. And we write a 661 00:31:51.319 --> 00:31:54.319 letter of recommendation, send it to the agency. So that's 662 00:31:54.480 --> 00:31:56.680 that's what that's what that was about. That worked there 663 00:31:56.720 --> 00:31:57.400 for four years. 664 00:31:58.160 --> 00:32:01.000 That's cool, And I kind of went a little bit 665 00:32:01.000 --> 00:32:03.079 too quicker. Let's go back real quick to your homicide days. 666 00:32:03.119 --> 00:32:04.920 Out of how many how many cases were you the 667 00:32:05.000 --> 00:32:07.279 lead on? If you remember, well, I. 668 00:32:07.319 --> 00:32:09.519 Know when I retired, I had I you know, one 669 00:32:09.559 --> 00:32:12.319 of those guys that counted. But when I retired, they 670 00:32:12.359 --> 00:32:14.720 had somebody count and I had worked on two hundred 671 00:32:14.720 --> 00:32:18.000 and thirty eight murders. You know, I wouldn't necessarily lead 672 00:32:18.039 --> 00:32:19.960 on all those, so I don't know the lead. I 673 00:32:20.000 --> 00:32:21.799 would guess I was the lead on about a little 674 00:32:21.880 --> 00:32:25.640 less than half of those. Yeah, yeah, so but I worked, 675 00:32:25.839 --> 00:32:29.559 you know, did work on on two hundred and thirty 676 00:32:29.559 --> 00:32:30.240 eight murders. 677 00:32:31.160 --> 00:32:33.920 So out of the out of this, out of the 678 00:32:34.279 --> 00:32:36.000 out of all of those murders that you were a 679 00:32:36.079 --> 00:32:38.519 part of in some way, shape or form, was there 680 00:32:38.599 --> 00:32:41.400 one that stands out that you would consider that career 681 00:32:41.519 --> 00:32:43.359 case I had. 682 00:32:43.599 --> 00:32:45.519 I used toll this is a twenty minutes because I 683 00:32:45.559 --> 00:32:49.599 asked people, I've had like ten career cases. Okay, you know, yeah, 684 00:32:50.160 --> 00:32:53.400 serial killers

or you know, there was one this one 685 00:32:53.480 --> 00:32:56.960 second serial killer. I got called two o'clock in the 686 00:32:57.039 --> 00:32:59.920 morning to this address in the central area where gang 687 00:33:00.039 --> 00:33:01.640 banks happen all the time I get there, there's two 688 00:33:01.680 --> 00:33:04.119 dead black males laying in the street, and I'm thinking, 689 00:33:04.200 --> 00:33:06.279 oh god, it's a gang bang. And I got very 690 00:33:06.319 --> 00:33:08.920 few gang bangs. It's just the way the way the 691 00:33:09.039 --> 00:33:12.680 rotation came up. I always got interesting or weird murders, 692 00:33:12.759 --> 00:33:14.920 you know. Ends up that was a serial killer and 693 00:33:14.960 --> 00:33:17.000 he killed three in Seattle, then went to New Jersey 694 00:33:17.000 --> 00:33:18.319 and killed the guy in New Jersey. I had to 695 00:33:18.359 --> 00:33:20.519 go back there and testify that was a good case. 696 00:33:20.960 --> 00:33:22.680 But you know, the heither thing is lateon micro kind 697 00:33:22.720 --> 00:33:25.200 of late in my career, I had a we had 698 00:33:25.480 --> 00:33:30.200 an officer that was ambushed and killed. He was an 699 00:33:30.319 --> 00:33:32.759 FDO a field training officer, and he has female student 700 00:33:32.759 --> 00:33:34.920 officer in the driver's seat and they was parked on 701 00:33:34.960 --> 00:33:37.279 a residential street talking about the traffic stuff she just 702 00:33:37.359 --> 00:33:39.880 made when a car pulled right up next to him 703 00:33:39.920 --> 00:33:43.279 and with a two two three rifle fired like ten 704 00:33:43.400 --> 00:33:46.079 rounds into the car. She ducked and it scraped the 705 00:33:46.119 --> 00:33:47.960 back of her vest, but it hit him and the 706 00:33:48.039 --> 00:33:50.720 head four times and he was dead. And so that case, 707 00:33:51.319 --> 00:33:53.680 it happened on us. It happened on Halloween. Actually it 708 00:33:53.759 --> 00:33:56.559 was a Sunday night at ten o'clock. I got called 709 00:33:56.599 --> 00:34:00.960 in and I worked eighteen hours a day every day 710 00:34:02.160 --> 00:34:05.440 until that Friday when we made the arrest. And then 711 00:34:05.519 --> 00:34:08.719 he got it, you know, he would We made the arrest, 712 00:34:08.760 --> 00:34:10.440 and and I sent a couple of guys out to 713 00:34:10.480 --> 00:34:12.360 watch his car, and he came out and they got 714 00:34:12.440 --> 00:34:14.599 a big shootout with them and stuff, and and that 715 00:34:14.719 --> 00:34:16.800 was a good case. That was a big case. That 716 00:34:16.960 --> 00:34:19.719 was you say, it was a police officer ambush murder. 717 00:34:19.800 --> 00:34:22.079 Before that was cool. You know, now everybody's doing it. 718 00:34:22.480 --> 00:34:25.599 But yeah, and I would just like I would literally 719 00:34:25.760 --> 00:34:28.719 just lay on the floor under my desk and sleep sometimes. 720 00:34:28.800 --> 00:34:30.719 And I have an r V that I kept at 721 00:34:30.719 --> 00:34:32.320 the police range. I'd go down there and sleep for 722 00:34:32.599 --> 00:34:33.880 three or four hours and get up and go right 723 00:34:33.920 --> 00:34:37.079 back to work, you know. And so yeah, that was 724 00:34:37.159 --> 00:34:39.519 a big case, in a long case. And I've had 725 00:34:39.559 --> 00:34:44.079 to I've had to give presentations in that case around 726 00:34:44.119 --> 00:34:46.679 the country too. Yeah. 727 00:34:47.000 --> 00:34:52.159 Uh, that's that sounds really horrible, honestly, And uh, we're 728 00:34:52.199 --> 00:34:54.920 fortunate here We've only had one cop that's been killed 729 00:34:54.920 --> 00:34:56.679 in the line of duty since I've been in homicide, 730 00:34:56.840 --> 00:34:58.519 or really since I've been on since I've been on 731 00:34:58.559 --> 00:35:02.079 the department actually so so, which we're really lucky. 732 00:35:03.119 --> 00:35:07.599 Three officer murders you know my job. Yeah, and there 733 00:35:07.639 --> 00:35:11.000 have been in total, there's like sixty because there's a 734 00:35:11.039 --> 00:35:13.719 wall and headquarters. When were walking with a yeah, fifteen eight. 735 00:35:14.880 --> 00:35:17.039 Hey, just out of curiosity, how big is Seattle and 736 00:35:17.360 --> 00:35:19.800 how many police officers roughly do they have there? 737 00:35:20.320 --> 00:35:22.960 Okay, you mean the city of Seattle. Well, the Seattle 738 00:35:23.000 --> 00:35:25.679 Military Area is about two and a half million, you know, 739 00:35:26.280 --> 00:35:29.239 not that many. About a million live in the in 740 00:35:29.360 --> 00:35:33.920 the city, but everybody else works there and goes to 741 00:35:34.039 --> 00:35:37.159 events there. And the police Well, that's a bad question 742 00:35:37.199 --> 00:35:39.440 because the police department supposed to have like fourteen or 743 00:35:39.440 --> 00:35:41.840 fifteen hundred least I heard they have like nine hundred 744 00:35:41.920 --> 00:35:43.400 or eight hundred. Because of the big EXAs in the 745 00:35:43.519 --> 00:35:46.320 last couple of years. They're trying to get that back up. Yeah, 746 00:35:46.760 --> 00:35:49.039 they're trying to get that back up to fourteen hundreds 747 00:35:49.199 --> 00:35:51.760 or maybe two thousands where it should be. You know, 748 00:35:51.920 --> 00:35:56.880 we have the lowest police officerer per capita rate in 749 00:35:56.960 --> 00:36:00.400 the nation. I did not know that, Yeah, but now 750 00:36:00.519 --> 00:36:02.119 we do. I mean we didn't used to, but we 751 00:36:02.199 --> 00:36:05.400 do now because everybody was leaving because all the bs 752 00:36:05.599 --> 00:36:07.679 was going on here, you know, and this is not 753 00:36:07.800 --> 00:36:11.400 a very police friendly city, I mean by the city government. 754 00:36:12.159 --> 00:36:15.000 Right. So did you run into difficulties with respect to 755

00:36:15.079 --> 00:36:18.559 cases where you get in a lot more uh, where 756 00:36:18.599 --> 00:36:24.079 they needed ridiculous you know, unrealistic expectations for you to 757 00:36:24.159 --> 00:36:27.480 bring them, for them to follow the case or no. 758 00:36:27.719 --> 00:36:30.000 You know, the thing is not only I was well 759 00:36:30.079 --> 00:36:33.159 known in the department, and I was well known at 760 00:36:33.159 --> 00:36:36.400 the prosecutor's office and by judges. So I would bring 761 00:36:36.440 --> 00:36:37.760 it in and I didn't. I never got up. But 762 00:36:37.800 --> 00:36:40.000 they might say, hey, would you try to get this okay? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, 763 00:36:40.159 --> 00:36:42.360 nothing or if it was unrealistic and what are you 764 00:36:42.440 --> 00:36:45.159 talking about? It was a one time there was a case. 765 00:36:45.199 --> 00:36:47.880 It was a pretty pretty serious case. In this prosecutor 766 00:36:47.880 --> 00:36:51.800 who I knew was a friend. She kept asking at this, 767 00:36:51.960 --> 00:36:54.239 at this and her name was Kristin. She became a 768 00:36:54.320 --> 00:36:57.800 judge leader. I said, look at her, said Kristin, You'll 769 00:36:57.880 --> 00:37:00.719 never get more evidence of guilt. I guess this guy 770 00:37:00.800 --> 00:37:02.280 that you have right now, and right now you have 771 00:37:02.320 --> 00:37:05.079 about five times the amount of evidence you need. She 772 00:37:05.280 --> 00:37:07.599 was just so nervous and went to trial. The jury 773 00:37:07.719 --> 00:37:09.599 was out for like an hour and convicted this guy, 774 00:37:09.719 --> 00:37:12.039 you know, so there was no big death. I would 775 00:37:12.079 --> 00:37:14.400 just call bs sometimes and you know, most of the 776 00:37:14.440 --> 00:37:16.599 time they listened. That didn't even have problems with them, 777 00:37:17.280 --> 00:37:21.280 you know. Yeah. So that's the other thing we had. 778 00:37:21.360 --> 00:37:23.400 We had the thing here where when you get called 779 00:37:23.400 --> 00:37:27.039 to a homicide, the prosecuter's office has a homicide did too, 780 00:37:27.119 --> 00:37:29.679 and one of the whoever their next guy up would 781 00:37:29.719 --> 00:37:32.000 come to the scene at the time, and that makes 782 00:37:32.039 --> 00:37:33.639 it a lot better because they're seeing it and they're 783 00:37:33.679 --> 00:37:36.840 smelling it. They understand the case better than somebody just 784 00:37:36.920 --> 00:37:39.119 reading about it a couple of days later. You know, 785 00:37:39.159 --> 00:37:41.440 they understand and they're involved in it. Right from that 786 00:37:41.599 --> 00:37:43.679 moment through the investigation. We were all friends, you know. 787 00:37:43.960 --> 00:37:47.639 They aren't directing investigation, you know, Yeah, but they're just 788 00:37:47.719 --> 00:37:49.960 there with us and we talk about it and and 789 00:37:51.119 --> 00:37:52.800 then they take it

to trial. And that was a 790 00:37:52.880 --> 00:37:54.679 great way to do it. Yeah. 791 00:37:54.719 --> 00:37:56.960 I think that's actually brilliant and that's something that I've 792 00:37:57.119 --> 00:37:59.119 I've only seen that done a couple of times were 793 00:37:59.159 --> 00:38:01.239 somebody from the DA office actually showed up, and one 794 00:38:01.280 --> 00:38:02.840 of them was when I actually called him and said, 795 00:38:03.480 --> 00:38:05.119 you need to get here. I want you to see 796 00:38:05.159 --> 00:38:09.760 what I'm looking at. And yeah that way. Yeah, that's good. 797 00:38:09.920 --> 00:38:13.320 I'm glad you mentioned that. So let me ask you, Yeah, 798 00:38:13.559 --> 00:38:14.280 do what do what? 799 00:38:15.079 --> 00:38:16.960 Throuteene? I mean, that's the way it always is. That's 800 00:38:16.960 --> 00:38:17.960 the that's a protocol. 801 00:38:18.719 --> 00:38:22.119 It makes great sense. Really, Yeah, yeah, hey, let me 802 00:38:22.159 --> 00:38:24.199 ask you, uh and I and I think I know 803 00:38:24.280 --> 00:38:26.840 your answer to this. Hey, you know, it seems like 804 00:38:26.880 --> 00:38:31.760 there's a lot of wacko, crazy, freaking serial killers number one, 805 00:38:32.360 --> 00:38:35.639 uh and just really weird homicides that happen up there 806 00:38:35.800 --> 00:38:37.079 in the Pacific Northwest? 807 00:38:37.760 --> 00:38:38.920 Is that just? Is that? 808 00:38:39.199 --> 00:38:43.199 Is there truth to that? And if? And is there 809 00:38:43.239 --> 00:38:46.079 a reason why I get you that question. 810 00:38:45.960 --> 00:38:48.280 About serial killers all the time. I don't know if 811 00:38:48.320 --> 00:38:50.199 it's true, because I mean, there are a lot of 812 00:38:50.199 --> 00:38:52.679 serial clubs other places. It may be true, but I 813 00:38:52.719 --> 00:38:54.639 don't know there's been a lot here as far as 814 00:38:54.760 --> 00:38:56.639 whacky and weird that is true. I can tell you 815 00:38:56.760 --> 00:38:58.960 that I'm that serial killer I was telling you about. 816 00:38:59.440 --> 00:39:01.719 I had to go back to Newark New Jersey because 817 00:39:01.719 --> 00:39:03.239 that's what the guy did, is like we did in 818 00:39:03.320 --> 00:39:05.920 West Orange, New Jersey, has killed another guy there that's 819 00:39:06.039 --> 00:39:08.960 er code. And I'm talking to detectives there and they're saying, 820 00:39:09.280 --> 00:39:11.360 how many murders you have? And I told them about, 821 00:39:11.440 --> 00:39:13.320 you know, how many we have, seventy five eighty a year, 822 00:39:13.800 --> 00:39:15.840 and they're like, are you giving me that's nothing? But 823 00:39:15.920 --> 00:39:18.360 see they're doing all gang bangs and shit. I said, 824 00:39:18.400 --> 00:39:20.960 we don't have quantity, but we have quality. And then 825 00:39:21.039 --> 00:39:25.199 they came out here and they're like, you're right, all 826 00:39:25.280 --> 00:39:28.880 this weird shit, you know? Yeah what uh? 827 00:39:29.719 --> 00:39:31.360 You know, I know you probably get ask this too, 828 00:39:31.440 --> 00:39:34.039 and and there's plenty to choose from, I'm sure, but 829 00:39:34.199 --> 00:39:35.599 is there one that sticks out that it was just 830 00:39:35.719 --> 00:39:41.039 really just really bizarre kind of a homicide. I know 831 00:39:41.079 --> 00:39:42.280 there's probably more than one, but. 832 00:39:42.400 --> 00:39:43.800 Yeah, there is more than one. I got to think 833 00:39:43.800 --> 00:39:46.519 about it. But I mean, yeah, you know, the strangers 834 00:39:46.559 --> 00:39:52.360 through the window doing weird shit and that kind of stuff. Yeah, God, 835 00:39:52.400 --> 00:39:53.639 I can't think of right now off the top of 836 00:39:53.639 --> 00:39:56.760 my head a really weird one. But maybe it's because 837 00:39:56.800 --> 00:39:58.400 I'm so used to it. It didn't seem that we're 838 00:39:58.800 --> 00:40:00.159 more Yeah, yeah, and. 839 00:40:00.199 --> 00:40:02.119 I heard you. I heard you talking on another I 840 00:40:02.159 --> 00:40:04.400 think it was Jared's podcast, and I'm interested about this. 841 00:40:05.000 --> 00:40:06.679 Was there a time, and I don't know if this 842 00:40:06.719 --> 00:40:08.760 still exists or not, but they would make you, they 843 00:40:08.800 --> 00:40:11.400 would make you talk to a psychologist after a Was that. 844 00:40:11.800 --> 00:40:15.800 Only my first murder, the very first one I was 845 00:40:15.840 --> 00:40:17.519 primary on when I first came into house. I was 846 00:40:17.559 --> 00:40:19.920 a murder of a seven year old little girl. And 847 00:40:21.079 --> 00:40:23.320 the chief of police that time was a real touchy 848 00:40:23.320 --> 00:40:26.800 feely guy that came up from San Diego, and he said, 849 00:40:26.840 --> 00:40:29.000 I want everybody to go talk to the psychologist. And 850 00:40:29.119 --> 00:40:32.639 he said this up for like Saturday morning at eight o'clock. Well, 851 00:40:32.760 --> 00:40:36.199 Friday night, we got the tip. I always say, a 852 00:40:36.320 --> 00:40:39.559 murder is like I said of dominoes. Once that first 853 00:40:39.599 --> 00:40:42.159 one tips, they all fall into place, and if you 854 00:40:42.199 --> 00:40:44.880 don't have the right one, they'll stop right. Yeah, So 855 00:40:45.400 --> 00:40:47.280 we got this and we're working. My partner and I 856 00:40:47.360 --> 00:40:52.079 are working all night long, all night long on this murder. 857 00:40:52.559 --> 00:40:54.639 And then we're done. We got the guys in jail, 858 00:40:55.079 --> 00:40:56.920 We're going to go to I want to go home, 859 00:40:56.960 --> 00:40:58.760 but we got to go to this stupid meeting. So 860 00:40:58.920 --> 00:41:01.360 I walked into this room, everybody's sitting in his circle. 861 00:41:01.800 --> 00:41:03.960 And this guy with a beard and glasses and he 862 00:41:04.000 --> 00:41:05.519 says to me,

how do you feel about being involved 863 00:41:05.519 --> 00:41:07.480 in this case? And I said, you know, excuse my 864 00:41:07.559 --> 00:41:10.599 French here, I said, if I have to come to 865 00:41:10.639 --> 00:41:12.840 see a guy like you every time something like this happens, 866 00:41:13.039 --> 00:41:15.079 I'm in the wrong fucking job and I need to 867 00:41:15.239 --> 00:41:17.159 change my career. And I got up and walked out. 868 00:41:17.559 --> 00:41:19.599 And that was true. If it bothers you that much, 869 00:41:19.679 --> 00:41:21.599 don't come to homicide. You know, you got to be 870 00:41:21.639 --> 00:41:23.119 able to You got to be able to brush that 871 00:41:23.159 --> 00:41:24.960 stuff off your back. Not that I didn't have empathy 872 00:41:25.000 --> 00:41:27.159 for the victim or the victory mother and all that, 873 00:41:27.239 --> 00:41:29.039 of course I did, but it's not going to schect 874 00:41:29.079 --> 00:41:32.519 me psychologically. Come on, right in a life this guy 875 00:41:32.599 --> 00:41:33.639 calls a whole clue. 876 00:41:34.239 --> 00:41:36.159 Yeah, So that you said that was the first time 877 00:41:36.239 --> 00:41:38.440 and only time, so that that just kind of that 878 00:41:38.599 --> 00:41:39.559 was it. That was it. 879 00:41:39.719 --> 00:41:42.199 That was my first murder where I had case responsibility, 880 00:41:42.559 --> 00:41:44.679 and that was it. I never that never happened again. 881 00:41:45.360 --> 00:41:48.960 Well that's good. So so you went from there and 882 00:41:49.360 --> 00:41:53.079 and uh, you basically you go and you're doing that 883 00:41:53.199 --> 00:41:56.800 thing you were doing that thing. That that basically where 884 00:41:56.800 --> 00:42:00.360 you're looking at cases from Oregon, Washington, Idaho, mont Hannah 885 00:42:00.679 --> 00:42:01.480 right that region. 886 00:42:02.079 --> 00:42:02.199 Uh. 887 00:42:02.800 --> 00:42:04.880 The thing I'm interested about is this thing and if 888 00:42:04.920 --> 00:42:08.480 you can talk about it and oh hang on, let 889 00:42:08.519 --> 00:42:09.800 me all right, So let me let me ask you 890 00:42:09.840 --> 00:42:13.960 about one Kurt Cobain. Oh yeah, I'm sure you've been 891 00:42:14.000 --> 00:42:15.800 asked about that times. 892 00:42:16.360 --> 00:42:17.960 Well, let me tell you about Kirk Cobain. I was 893 00:42:18.000 --> 00:42:20.639 sitting in the office when that call came in and 894 00:42:21.159 --> 00:42:23.320 they picked up the phone and they said, Kurt Cobain 895 00:42:23.400 --> 00:42:27.840 has found dead in his house, and everybody, all the 896 00:42:28.039 --> 00:42:31.880 homicide detectives there, the sergeant and me all said who. 897 00:42:32.320 --> 00:42:36.360 Nobody knew who Kurt Cobain was, never even heard of him. 898 00:42:36.719 --> 00:42:38.880 So I didn't go to the scene. But I have 899 00:42:39.000 --> 00:42:41.320 since reviewed the evidence of stuff, and I've met with 900 00:42:41.400 --> 00:42:44.840 a medical examiner and talked about it. There is this 901 00:42:45.079 --> 00:42:47.960 is a thousand percent of suicide. He used a semi 902 00:42:48.039 --> 00:42:50.039 automatic shotgun. Well, first of all, if you're gonna get 903 00:42:50.079 --> 00:42:51.800 told you this way, I tell people, if you want 904 00:42:51.840 --> 00:42:53.360 to kill Kirk Cobain, you're not going to put a 905 00:42:53.400 --> 00:42:55.679 shotgun in his mouth and pull the trigger. You're gonna 906 00:42:55.719 --> 00:42:58.119 hot shot him with heroin, because no one would blink 907 00:42:58.199 --> 00:43:00.480 twice if I'm dying of a heroin overdose, don't even 908 00:43:00.559 --> 00:43:06.280 think anything of it. But uh, but theh the uh 909 00:43:06.880 --> 00:43:12.079 he was he used this. He called a cab that afternoon, 910 00:43:13.079 --> 00:43:16.119 gott in the cab. The cab driver recognized him, drove 911 00:43:16.239 --> 00:43:20.000 downtown to a gun shop, bought the shotgun ammunition with 912 00:43:20.079 --> 00:43:22.719 his own credit card, and came back. Gotten there, and 913 00:43:22.760 --> 00:43:24.719 the guy took him back to his house, you know. 914 00:43:25.159 --> 00:43:28.199 And then he was using a semi automatic shotgun, so 915 00:43:28.559 --> 00:43:31.000 it means when you pull the trigger, it ejects the 916 00:43:31.079 --> 00:43:35.000 casing automatically, and the next one gets fed in. His 917 00:43:35.199 --> 00:43:38.840 hand was wrapped around the shotgun like this, with his 918 00:43:38.960 --> 00:43:42.280 hand covering the port. When they pulled the trigger, the 919 00:43:42.400 --> 00:43:46.039 hand his hand was scorched from the port, the flames 920 00:43:46.079 --> 00:43:49.280 coming up to the port to jecked around. I mean, 921 00:43:49.760 --> 00:43:51.480 you'd have to wrap his hand around that port, and 922 00:43:51.519 --> 00:43:52.039 why would you? 923 00:43:52.960 --> 00:43:55.639 Yeah, well, I mean, so what you're almost describing is 924 00:43:55.880 --> 00:43:57.400 a little bit of cadaveric spasm. 925 00:43:57.719 --> 00:43:59.599 Yeah, well, that's exactly what it was, because his hand 926 00:43:59.719 --> 00:44:02.599 was still in the trigger and there was spas him. 927 00:44:02.760 --> 00:44:04.760 His hand was still in the trigger and on the 928 00:44:05.280 --> 00:44:08.199 group part of the of the stock and so and 929 00:44:08.320 --> 00:44:11.039 then he'd done that and burned himself. He did, you know, 930 00:44:11.320 --> 00:44:15.599 always the I remember what's his name? He was medically 931 00:44:15.639 --> 00:44:19.000 summer in Pittsburgh. He just died last year. I met 932 00:44:19.039 --> 00:44:20.760 him a few times. I can't think of his name. 933 00:44:21.199 --> 00:44:24.280 Hero always on TV. He could not have with that 934 00:44:24.440 --> 00:44:26.559 much he's gone on TV said with that much Heroin 935 00:44:26.599 --> 00:44:28.440 on board because he shot up

right before the house. 936 00:44:28.599 --> 00:44:32.159 I remember, he could not have possibly done that. Well, 937 00:44:32.400 --> 00:44:33.679 the thing he forgot. 938 00:44:33.920 --> 00:44:34.679 Are you talking about? 939 00:44:34.679 --> 00:44:34.880 Are you? 940 00:44:35.000 --> 00:44:37.960 Are you talking about? Basically the guy that that might 941 00:44:38.039 --> 00:44:39.960 have talked about it and Soaked and Bleach, which was 942 00:44:40.039 --> 00:44:41.320 that documentary. 943 00:44:41.639 --> 00:44:43.440 Which funny, but yeah, I'll tell you about that too. 944 00:44:43.920 --> 00:44:48.519 So yeah, you're right. If he was an omer guy 945 00:44:48.559 --> 00:44:50.079 did that, it would have knocked him out. But Kirk 946 00:44:50.119 --> 00:44:51.920 obade by the Heroin user for years. He had a 947 00:44:52.039 --> 00:44:54.480 high tolerance and I think he did that because he 948 00:44:54.559 --> 00:44:57.079 was afraid he might hurt. Yeah, just to do that. 949 00:44:57.679 --> 00:45:02.079 But yeah, speaking of his Oak and Bleach. Verne Gebbers 950 00:45:02.559 --> 00:45:06.960 who is Yeah, Yeah, he wrote Basic Homicide and I 951 00:45:07.000 --> 00:45:10.800 mean Practical Homicide Investigation. He's a friend of mine. And 952 00:45:10.920 --> 00:45:12.920 I told him, ah, that was my mistake. I was 953 00:45:13.000 --> 00:45:16.800 running impractical homicide investigation. Anyway, he calls me up on 954 00:45:16.880 --> 00:45:19.400 my cell phone one day, he goes, Hey, these people 955 00:45:19.440 --> 00:45:22.800 want me to do an interview about Kurt Cobain and 956 00:45:23.119 --> 00:45:26.480 you know, for a documentary. What should I do? I said, Verne, 957 00:45:27.039 --> 00:45:30.280 take their money. Take their money. And so he did. 958 00:45:30.760 --> 00:45:33.440 And he got on there and he was so pissed 959 00:45:33.480 --> 00:45:35.840 because he said, he told me what he told him 960 00:45:36.079 --> 00:45:38.159 that it was clearly a suicide, but they edited it 961 00:45:38.239 --> 00:45:39.960 to make it look like he was saying it wasn't. 962 00:45:40.239 --> 00:45:42.800 And he was all kinds of stuff online how they 963 00:45:43.360 --> 00:45:46.159 this would bes They edited his comments to make it 964 00:45:46.280 --> 00:45:50.480 sound different than what he said. But yeah, yeah, I mean, 965 00:45:51.039 --> 00:45:54.079 here's the other thing. This guy Tom Grant, he'd been 966 00:45:54.119 --> 00:45:56.079 on an LA County sheriffs for like two years as 967 00:45:56.119 --> 00:46:00.159 a patrol deputy. You're talking, what expertise does he have 968 00:46:00.519 --> 00:46:03.320 to decide this is a homiciders He has none? He 969 00:46:03.400 --> 00:46:05.159 has none. He's just I don't know why he left 970 00:46:05.199 --> 00:46:07.960 the sheriff's office after two years. I'm guessing he probably 971 00:46:08.000 --> 00:46:10.800 got fired, but I don't know for sure. But you know, 972 00:46:11.519 --> 00:46:13.920 who is this guy? What experience. Does he have to say. 973 00:46:13.960 --> 00:46:16.039 I've said there with I said with a medical examiner 974 00:46:16.079 --> 00:46:18.000 one time because it was coming up. He was a 975 00:46:18.039 --> 00:46:20.039 chief criminal medal examiner. He's a friend of mine Seattle, 976 00:46:20.400 --> 00:46:22.159 and he's and that's what he said about Cyril Weck. 977 00:46:22.239 --> 00:46:26.480 He goes, well, experienced medical examiners know that if you're 978 00:46:26.480 --> 00:46:29.320 a heroin user, you'll have a much higher tolerance. Then 979 00:46:29.440 --> 00:46:32.519 that's why these people. These people die of heroin overdoses. 980 00:46:32.840 --> 00:46:35.320 They're using heroin every day, then decide they're going to 981 00:46:35.360 --> 00:46:40.000 get treatment, so they stop for like six weeks, and 982 00:46:40.079 --> 00:46:43.199 then after six weeks they get the urge and go 983 00:46:43.320 --> 00:46:45.519 back and use the same dose they did before. Well, 984 00:46:45.559 --> 00:46:47.920 the tolerance has come down. So when they do that, 985 00:46:48.039 --> 00:46:51.719 they overdose and die. That's the problem. And so yeah, 986 00:46:51.960 --> 00:46:55.159 he had a tolerance, and yeah, there's no thousand percent chances. 987 00:46:55.440 --> 00:46:57.199 By the way, I don't know people know Kurt's head 988 00:46:57.320 --> 00:47:00.760 was intact. He used bird shot and you can look 989 00:47:00.760 --> 00:47:02.800 at the extra His head was full of bird shot. 990 00:47:03.119 --> 00:47:05.000 But he didn't blow his head off shooting himself in 991 00:47:05.039 --> 00:47:07.039 the mouth of the shot gun. It was all intact. 992 00:47:08.159 --> 00:47:11.480 Explain to the Explain to the listeners. What cadaveric spasm is. 993 00:47:11.800 --> 00:47:14.519 Well, sometimes at the time of death, your hands will 994 00:47:14.599 --> 00:47:16.800 grip like that and they'll stay like that after death. 995 00:47:17.199 --> 00:47:21.880 That's your spasm. And especially with gunshots and things like that, it's. 996 00:47:21.800 --> 00:47:25.280 Like an like an instantaneous rigor mortise at the trigger finger. 997 00:47:25.679 --> 00:47:26.559 It doesn't happen all. 998 00:47:26.440 --> 00:47:28.360 The time, usually to the brain. 999 00:47:29.039 --> 00:47:33.440 But yeah, yeah, that's what fascinating. I'm fascinating, you know, 1000 00:47:33.599 --> 00:47:36.559 I uh, the way they put that soaked and blitch together. 1001 00:47:36.599 --> 00:47:39.519 You know, of course you sit there and you're just like, hmm. 1002 00:47:39.760 --> 00:47:42.199 Yeah, well they want you to think. That's how I know. 1003 00:47:43.039 --> 00:47:45.239 That's I tell if people call me and say, like, 1004 00:47:45.559 --> 00:47:47.480 are you watching the making of a murder? I go, no, 1005 00:47:47.559 --> 00:47:49.719 I don't watch that ship And they said, what do 1006 00:47:49.800 -->

00:47:52.280 you think? I said, I think the producers that make 1007 00:47:52.360 --> 00:47:54.719 that are trying to only showing the stuff that'll make 1008 00:47:54.760 --> 00:47:56.960 you believe what they want you to believe. You're not 1009 00:47:57.000 --> 00:47:58.920 telling you the whole story. The other one is the stairwell. 1010 00:47:59.400 --> 00:48:02.480 The stairwell, oh my god, oh you know the staircase. No, 1011 00:48:02.599 --> 00:48:04.440 it's the staircase. Yeah, I know what you're talking about, 1012 00:48:04.480 --> 00:48:11.679 that one. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, well, I'll tell 1013 00:48:11.719 --> 00:48:12.760 you what uh. 1014 00:48:13.239 --> 00:48:15.480 That that I'm really I'm really glad that you talked 1015 00:48:15.480 --> 00:48:17.320 about that case. Do you think that there's more victims 1016 00:48:17.360 --> 00:48:19.880 from Gary Ridgeway or do you think he basically. 1017 00:48:20.440 --> 00:48:23.039 Yeah, absolutely, really, yeah, he only confessed to the ones 1018 00:48:23.079 --> 00:48:25.480 in King County because they told they wouldn't give him 1019 00:48:25.480 --> 00:48:28.480 the Definitely, we know he did ones in Pierce County, 1020 00:48:28.920 --> 00:48:31.840 you know, but he only showed. He's only stated he 1021 00:48:31.920 --> 00:48:35.800 did not stay. Ironically, Ridgeway lived like four miles from 1022 00:48:35.840 --> 00:48:38.840 where I am right now on the road, you know, 1023 00:48:38.960 --> 00:48:41.039 and I used to I had friends who lived across 1024 00:48:41.079 --> 00:48:42.880 the street from him. I didn't even realize at the time, 1025 00:48:43.400 --> 00:48:47.480 but yeah, he absolutely did more than than the ones 1026 00:48:47.519 --> 00:48:50.280 he's been charged with or convicted of, you know. 1027 00:48:50.400 --> 00:48:52.119 And watching him talk, I guess that would be a 1028 00:48:52.159 --> 00:48:53.639 reason why he wouldn't want to talk about it if 1029 00:48:53.679 --> 00:48:58.320 another county would probably not honor that. But I think that, 1030 00:48:58.599 --> 00:49:00.519 you know, just looking at him, and of course I'm 1031 00:49:00.519 --> 00:49:03.559 getting the limited stuff, but he seems like somebody that 1032 00:49:03.559 --> 00:49:04.960 you could actually go and just talk to him. 1033 00:49:05.239 --> 00:49:07.719 Yeah, well, yeah, he's actually well, he's got he's low IQ. 1034 00:49:07.880 --> 00:49:10.840 He's got like a seventy five IQ. Actually, some people 1035 00:49:10.880 --> 00:49:13.719 from Hits did go to interview him a few months ago, 1036 00:49:13.960 --> 00:49:17.280 and he was very open about his murders to them. Yeah, yeah, 1037 00:49:17.760 --> 00:49:20.079 at least the ones he was convicted of. Yeah. 1038 00:49:20.960 --> 00:49:25.719 Interesting, So so uh yeah, that's really interesting stuff. Now, 1039 00:49:25.800 --> 00:49:27.599 let's let's talk a little bit about BTK. If you're 1040 00:49:27.599 --> 00:49:29.559 allowed to are you allowed to talk about it at all? 1041 00:49:29.800 --> 00:49:32.159 I mean I probably yes, you know, if you can't 1042 00:49:32.199 --> 00:49:33.960 talk about something specifically, that's great. No. 1043 00:49:34.119 --> 00:49:36.079 No, but I mean I haven't I was asked to 1044 00:49:36.159 --> 00:49:38.400 be on that. Not much has happened lately. There was 1045 00:49:38.440 --> 00:49:41.079 some stuff happened early, but I haven't heard much lately, 1046 00:49:41.239 --> 00:49:43.400 So I'm not sure what's going on with that. 1047 00:49:44.079 --> 00:49:46.360 Well, I know that there, well there's that Oklahoma case 1048 00:49:46.519 --> 00:49:48.639 that but you know that supposedly they're that you know, 1049 00:49:49.039 --> 00:49:50.840 I know O s H County. They were they were 1050 00:49:51.519 --> 00:49:54.679 talking about a lot. They had some other that started this. 1051 00:49:55.519 --> 00:49:58.519 Yeah he started this. Yeah. Yeah, that's how I got involved. 1052 00:49:58.880 --> 00:50:00.239 Actually it was Shity McCollum. 1053 00:50:00.079 --> 00:50:04.920 Asked me to get really all right. Yeah, it's a fascinating. 1054 00:50:05.239 --> 00:50:07.960 I mean, the thing about him to me though, he 1055 00:50:08.199 --> 00:50:10.239 just seems to me and I could be wrong completely. 1056 00:50:10.480 --> 00:50:12.079 I don't know all the ins and outs like you 1057 00:50:12.159 --> 00:50:14.880 do on this stuff. But to me, he seems like 1058 00:50:14.960 --> 00:50:16.920 the type of a killer that likes to take credit 1059 00:50:17.000 --> 00:50:17.679 for his kills. 1060 00:50:18.000 --> 00:50:21.679 Yeah, he does, although although he might be worried that 1061 00:50:21.760 --> 00:50:24.440 he get that death finitely about another one or something. 1062 00:50:24.480 --> 00:50:26.880 I don't know. Well, you know Kathin Ramslin, who is 1063 00:50:26.920 --> 00:50:27.760 another friend of mine. 1064 00:50:29.800 --> 00:50:32.840 Yeah, she's coming. She's coming on October the seventeenth. 1065 00:50:33.159 --> 00:50:36.079 Yeah, yeah, but we were supposed to do a thing 1066 00:50:36.159 --> 00:50:38.760 together in Missouri in September, but I had to cancel 1067 00:50:38.840 --> 00:50:42.920 because of a medical issue. But yeah, she interviewed. I mean, 1068 00:50:43.960 --> 00:50:44.480 what's his name? 1069 00:50:44.559 --> 00:50:48.239 My mind just blanked, Oh, Dennis rayder Waiter for months. 1070 00:50:48.480 --> 00:50:50.599 And then wrote a book about it, you know, and 1071 00:50:51.079 --> 00:50:54.360 like it's she's the one to ask about BTK because 1072 00:50:54.679 --> 00:50:57.840 she and I have talked about it. I said, because 1073 00:50:57.880 --> 00:51:00.960 the sheriff he was doing an interview them. He's trying 1074 00:51:01.000 --> 00:51:04.000 to get him to think feel sorry for the family. 1075 00:51:04.760 --> 00:51:06.960 He doesn't feel sorry for the family. He was just 1076 00:51:07.079 -->

00:51:10.239 jerking around because he is a cold blooded psychopath. You know. 1077 00:51:10.440 --> 00:51:13.039 That's the thing. He would he would walk down the 1078 00:51:13.079 --> 00:51:16.519 street on his street and with his daughter and they'd 1079 00:51:16.519 --> 00:51:18.760 being the neighbor, like, hey, how you doing no hi Hi, 1080 00:51:19.239 --> 00:51:20.960 And then later that he went back and murdered her. 1081 00:51:21.519 --> 00:51:25.599 You know, he was Yeah, he's a unique or. 1082 00:51:25.679 --> 00:51:27.360 I wouldn't say he's completely unique, but he is a 1083 00:51:27.400 --> 00:51:28.679 little bit weird different. 1084 00:51:28.760 --> 00:51:31.840 Actually, I know another friend of mine was involved in 1085 00:51:31.880 --> 00:51:36.440 investigation Killiotis at Wichita and we talked about that. You know, 1086 00:51:36.840 --> 00:51:39.440 they got him because he he said, well, if I 1087 00:51:39.960 --> 00:51:41.840 send you a floppy disk, can you tell you no, No, 1088 00:51:41.960 --> 00:51:44.239 can'tle becuse I can get the metadata They had his 1089 00:51:44.360 --> 00:51:50.719 logging name. Oh sorry, we lied, you know, Yeah, yeah, 1090 00:51:50.760 --> 00:51:51.000 I know that. 1091 00:51:51.079 --> 00:51:52.559 I know that I've had Gil Corilla on here and 1092 00:51:52.559 --> 00:51:54.760 he's a friend of mine, and Gil Corilla from the 1093 00:51:54.840 --> 00:51:57.360 Nightstalker and and and I know that, you know, the 1094 00:51:57.559 --> 00:52:00.639 the Richard Ramirez was a really you nique type of 1095 00:52:00.679 --> 00:52:02.880 a serial killer because you know, he really he really 1096 00:52:03.400 --> 00:52:05.400 didn't have any boundaries, man, I mean it was he 1097 00:52:05.400 --> 00:52:09.679 would molest even less little boys. He would rape old ladies, 1098 00:52:09.920 --> 00:52:12.239 he would kill it didn't matter. He didn't have a 1099 00:52:12.320 --> 00:52:14.599 tight he just I mean, well, I mean he liked Asians. 1100 00:52:14.639 --> 00:52:16.400 But but aside from that, I mean he really just 1101 00:52:16.519 --> 00:52:18.639 kind of went all over the place. So so uh, 1102 00:52:18.800 --> 00:52:20.159 for the most part, in your experience. 1103 00:52:20.760 --> 00:52:22.400 Uh, I don't. 1104 00:52:22.400 --> 00:52:23.960 I don't know. Let's talk about your books real quick, 1105 00:52:24.000 --> 00:52:25.079 so I don't. I don't want to miss that. As 1106 00:52:25.079 --> 00:52:26.320 a matter of fact, I've got one on the way. 1107 00:52:26.360 --> 00:52:28.280 I bought one of him. I got the one behind 1108 00:52:28.320 --> 00:52:31.679 the tape. That's uh, that's coming here. So so tell 1109 00:52:31.760 --> 00:52:33.280 us a little bit about what we get out of 1110 00:52:33.360 --> 00:52:34.960 these books. Uh, if we were to go out and 1111 00:52:35.039 --> 00:52:35.360 buy them. 1112 00:52:35.679 --> 00:52:38.400 Well, that's basically that was my first book, and it 1113 00:52:38.519 --> 00:52:42.559 was basically everybody. You know, I'd go somewhere with non cops, 1114 00:52:42.639 --> 00:52:45.440 like my wife, friends, and we go out and they say, 1115 00:52:45.480 --> 00:52:47.199 what do you do at work? I tell him and 1116 00:52:47.239 --> 00:52:49.079 I'm just talking about a work and they're like staring 1117 00:52:49.079 --> 00:52:51.239 at me. My jaw as a jaw open. You should 1118 00:52:51.280 --> 00:52:53.039 write a book. And my wife kept saying, you should 1119 00:52:53.079 --> 00:52:56.239 write a book. So just before I retired, I have 1120 00:52:56.360 --> 00:52:57.840 a I have a bhinder. 1121 00:52:58.440 --> 00:53:00.320 So yeah, I want to hopefully it's the I want 1122 00:53:00.400 --> 00:53:01.800 I want you to show that because. 1123 00:53:01.719 --> 00:53:07.800 Yea, this is it. Yeah, this is it. This is 1124 00:53:08.800 --> 00:53:12.559 one page in this binder is the case I worked on. 1125 00:53:13.119 --> 00:53:15.639 And there you know, it goes and divided by years. 1126 00:53:16.039 --> 00:53:18.119 The unit secretary kind of put this together for me 1127 00:53:18.199 --> 00:53:20.960 at the time. But it's you know, every single page 1128 00:53:21.079 --> 00:53:23.480 is a different murder I worked on, and it's like, 1129 00:53:23.639 --> 00:53:26.920 you know, this sick and so I just pulled that 1130 00:53:26.960 --> 00:53:28.480 out and I started flipping through them. I remember this 1131 00:53:28.559 --> 00:53:30.239 case and that was it. And I started and I 1132 00:53:30.360 --> 00:53:32.239 just thought, I'll just start writing about a couple of 1133 00:53:32.280 --> 00:53:34.599 cases than I did. But then I keep going on 1134 00:53:34.760 --> 00:53:37.000 more and more. Next thing, I knew I had a book, 1135 00:53:37.159 --> 00:53:39.559 you know, so I went shit, So I went, and 1136 00:53:39.760 --> 00:53:41.039 of course you have to edit it and all this 1137 00:53:41.119 --> 00:53:44.360 other crap. Yeah, finally I got I published it, and 1138 00:53:44.679 --> 00:53:46.199 you know, it sold quite a bit. I remember the 1139 00:53:46.239 --> 00:53:50.599 first time when it first opened on Amazon's list of 1140 00:53:50.800 --> 00:53:55.199 best sellers. It showed my book Wamba Want a Womba's Book, 1141 00:53:55.239 --> 00:53:58.440 Truman Capoti's and Gold Black right now. And I actually 1142 00:53:58.599 --> 00:54:01.719 lived on in life. Cut know, Joe Wamba. He just 1143 00:54:01.800 --> 00:54:03.679 passed away a few months ago. I went to a 1144 00:54:03.760 --> 00:54:07.559 funeral down in Palm Desert. But yeah, yeah, but so 1145 00:54:07.960 --> 00:54:10.360 I just it'st about all what I considered the more 1146 00:54:10.400 --> 00:54:12.960 interesting cases. You won't find much about gang bank cases 1147 00:54:13.000 --> 00:54:17.480 in there. There's one and it's only interesting because we 1148 00:54:17.599 --> 00:54:20.199 had we had this guy. It was a gang bank case, 1149

00:54:20.400 --> 00:54:23.199 you know, nothing special about it. But we figured out 1150 00:54:23.400 --> 00:54:25.800 who this guy was and we arrested him. And we 1151 00:54:25.960 --> 00:54:27.920 had barely enough to arrest him. You know, we didn't 1152 00:54:27.920 --> 00:54:30.760 really have enough for uh, you know, we need to 1153 00:54:30.800 --> 00:54:32.280 get some more stuff before we go to trial on 1154 00:54:32.360 --> 00:54:36.000 this guy. So I had this I had this prolific 1155 00:54:36.119 --> 00:54:39.519 snitch that would he was When he was in jail, 1156 00:54:39.880 --> 00:54:41.800 people would tell him abou murders they committed, and he 1157 00:54:41.840 --> 00:54:44.440 would call me and tell me, and I'd get him 1158 00:54:44.440 --> 00:54:47.159 and give a statement. Well, this guy there's and because 1159 00:54:47.199 --> 00:54:50.000 he was a juvenile, my guy was in a downtown 1160 00:54:50.119 --> 00:54:52.119 King County jail. There's another King County jail out in 1161 00:54:52.159 --> 00:54:54.880 the suburbs, and it's a dull jail too, but they 1162 00:54:54.960 --> 00:54:56.920 send all juveniles there also because they have a special 1163 00:54:57.000 --> 00:55:00.039 section or you know, down there. So my guy, I 1164 00:55:00.119 --> 00:55:03.400 was in custody in downtown. I called to jail and 1165 00:55:03.559 --> 00:55:06.199 I said his name, Send Greg down to r j C, 1166 00:55:06.320 --> 00:55:08.440 and I want you to put him near this guy, Okay, 1167 00:55:09.119 --> 00:55:10.719 And they get a call from Greg from the jail. 1168 00:55:10.800 --> 00:55:13.119 About half hour later, they're send me to r JC. 1169 00:55:13.280 --> 00:55:15.639 I said, really, he goes, did you do that? And 1170 00:55:15.719 --> 00:55:19.039 I said, why would I do that? And he oh, over, 1171 00:55:19.199 --> 00:55:20.679 I don't know why they're sending me to r JC 1172 00:55:21.039 --> 00:55:26.239 that stands for Regional Justice Center. See, I couldn't tell 1173 00:55:26.320 --> 00:55:28.360 him about it because he's making my agent and anything 1174 00:55:28.400 --> 00:55:31.280 he found out, that's right, that's right. Well I just 1175 00:55:31.360 --> 00:55:34.960 played dumb and they send the r j C. The 1176 00:55:35.000 --> 00:55:37.800 suspect name was Master, put some r JC to put 1177 00:55:37.840 --> 00:55:39.360 him in the in the cell next to this case. 1178 00:55:39.400 --> 00:55:41.719 Because Greg was always in isolation because he's get in fights. 1179 00:55:41.840 --> 00:55:44.000 He looked like this mafioso, but he was like a 1180 00:55:44.039 --> 00:55:46.239 puppy dog to me. He killed, he called me and 1181 00:55:46.360 --> 00:55:48.719 he gave up like ten or fifteen murders for me. 1182 00:55:49.000 --> 00:55:51.079 But anyway, he goes, hey, this guy Master tells me 1183 00:55:51.159 --> 00:55:54.400 he killed somebody. I'll be right down. Yeah he went 1184 00:55:54.480 --> 00:55:56.480 to trial. Yeah, I had.

1185 00:55:56.679 --> 00:55:58.559 I had one of those two that would call me constantly, 1186 00:55:58.599 --> 00:56:00.639 and I was like, I was like, I don't know, 1187 00:56:01.000 --> 00:56:02.639 I don't even know if I can use you anymore. Man, 1188 00:56:02.679 --> 00:56:04.679 You've told me about so many You know. 1189 00:56:04.800 --> 00:56:07.360 The thing is when we used to say if your 1190 00:56:07.400 --> 00:56:09.440 phone rings, you pick it up. He says, you have 1191 00:56:09.519 --> 00:56:11.679 a collect call from an inmate at the King County 1192 00:56:11.760 --> 00:56:16.000 jail except the charges. Oh my god, things can happen. 1193 00:56:16.360 --> 00:56:19.039 One of them's gonna rite off somebody else or number 1194 00:56:19.039 --> 00:56:21.119 two at your assessment wants to talk to you about it. 1195 00:56:21.559 --> 00:56:22.320 Yeah, you're right. 1196 00:56:22.760 --> 00:56:24.480 Yeah, I get well, we can't take collect calls, soll 1197 00:56:24.519 --> 00:56:25.199 that's bullshit. 1198 00:56:25.679 --> 00:56:29.039 Yeah, I get calls all the time. I get him 1199 00:56:29.039 --> 00:56:29.519 from prison. 1200 00:56:29.840 --> 00:56:33.480 Oh yeah, all the time, calls from prison. But yeah, 1201 00:56:34.000 --> 00:56:37.679 but yeah, but I remember talking to the class and 1202 00:56:37.719 --> 00:56:40.320 this guy says, well, what about let us accept the 1203 00:56:40.360 --> 00:56:43.920 collet caller? Are you getting me? It's the murder, you 1204 00:56:44.039 --> 00:56:44.440 know what I mean? 1205 00:56:44.760 --> 00:56:46.079 Yeah, it's so stupid. 1206 00:56:46.320 --> 00:56:49.599 It's like so stupid. Our interrogation rooms are prety good. 1207 00:56:49.920 --> 00:56:51.960 You know what. There's no smoking in our building. If 1208 00:56:51.960 --> 00:56:53.719 I'm interigating guy and he asked for a cigarette, I'm 1209 00:56:53.719 --> 00:56:56.519 giving him a cigarette. Yeah, smoke it kills me. 1210 00:56:57.039 --> 00:56:59.440 But yeah, well I used to. I used to. And 1211 00:56:59.440 --> 00:57:02.239 I'll tell you what, but uh I, I I will 1212 00:57:02.320 --> 00:57:06.079 break that role if you about what the rules are, 1213 00:57:06.559 --> 00:57:10.199 Jackie less about that they want to smoke? Hey man, 1214 00:57:10.239 --> 00:57:12.480 I just need a cigarette, Okay, okay. 1215 00:57:12.599 --> 00:57:15.920 Here we had we had cartons of cigarettes in the 1216 00:57:15.960 --> 00:57:18.960 interigation area and matches in case they asked that we 1217 00:57:19.039 --> 00:57:21.039 give them. She if they're in custody jail, because you 1218 00:57:21.039 --> 00:57:23.639 can't smoke in jail, and they're dying, so oh yeah, 1219 00:57:23.960 --> 00:57:24.079 you know. 1220 00:57:25.519 --> 00:57:28.239 Yeah, Hey, the second book that you wrote, let's let's 1221 00:57:28.280 --> 00:57:30.559 bring throw that up there, Amanda. It's the one about 1222 00:57:30.559 --> 00:57:33.159 the serial killer. So what's what's this about? 1223 00:57:33.559 --> 00:57:35.039 Well, what happened first one. I'll tell you how I 1224 00:57:35.119 --> 00:57:38.719 end up writing it. I'm working at the AG's office 1225 00:57:38.719 --> 00:57:42.559 and I get a call from a publisher. Hey, you 1226 00:57:42.599 --> 00:57:44.960 wrote that other book and it's selling really well. We're 1227 00:57:45.000 --> 00:57:48.480 looking for older true crime stories, you know. And I 1228 00:57:48.679 --> 00:57:50.639 just heard about this case like a week before. I'd 1229 00:57:50.679 --> 00:57:53.320 never heard about it, and I went, yeah, And so 1230 00:57:53.480 --> 00:57:58.599 she had me fill out a proposal and I filled 1231 00:57:58.639 --> 00:58:00.639 it out and she said, write the book. So I did. 1232 00:58:01.039 --> 00:58:03.199 And it is a much shorter book. It's only as 1233 00:58:03.239 --> 00:58:04.880 one hundred they only won one hundred and twenty five 1234 00:58:04.920 --> 00:58:08.280 pages or something, and like fifty photographs. It's about this 1235 00:58:09.639 --> 00:58:12.440 eighteen year old eighteen nineteen year old who in the 1236 00:58:12.639 --> 00:58:15.880 just south of the city in the late sixties early seventies, 1237 00:58:16.480 --> 00:58:18.079 was walking. He would walk through the woods. If he 1238 00:58:18.119 --> 00:58:20.639 came across somebody, he'd kill him. You know, and he 1239 00:58:20.760 --> 00:58:24.360 killed two teenage girls and two eight or nine year 1240 00:58:24.360 --> 00:58:27.440 old boys, you know, and it's terrible story. But you know, 1241 00:58:27.559 --> 00:58:30.159 that's the thing. He's still he's still in jail, and 1242 00:58:30.360 --> 00:58:32.400 some people went interviewed him. He's not happy about the book. 1243 00:58:33.480 --> 00:58:35.239 Oh geeah. Yeah. 1244 00:58:37.000 --> 00:58:40.199 Just to mention to the listeners, he had mentioned Joseph Wambaugh, 1245 00:58:40.800 --> 00:58:43.760 The Onion Fields is a great book. I highly recommend it. 1246 00:58:43.840 --> 00:58:46.119 It's a great one. And he wrote several others and stuff. 1247 00:58:46.119 --> 00:58:48.280 He was wasn't he a cop in La? Wasn't he 1248 00:58:48.280 --> 00:58:48.880 an LA cop? 1249 00:58:49.119 --> 00:58:51.719 He was, Yeah, for twelve years and they had to 1250 00:58:51.800 --> 00:58:53.880 leave when he started getting popular as an author. And 1251 00:58:53.960 --> 00:58:56.960 he also was an executive producer of Police Story and 1252 00:58:58.119 --> 00:59:02.000 The Choir Boyson, that's right, and all these They made 1253 00:59:02.039 --> 00:59:04.840 movies of him and he made rezillions of dollars. 1254 00:59:05.280 --> 00:59:07.599 Yeah, and I book called The Choirboys too. Yeah, I 1255 00:59:07.679 --> 00:59:08.079 wrote a book. 1256 00:59:08.679 --> 00:59:11.840 We always when I talked about him, he goes, he says, 1257 00:59:11.880 --> 00:59:14.280 the Choir Boys, the movie The Choir Boys, not to 1258

00:59:14.360 --> 00:59:16.280 be confused with the book I wrote of the same name, 1259 00:59:16.440 --> 00:59:18.400 because he was he did not like the movie. He 1260 00:59:18.519 --> 00:59:20.760 was pissed, you know, because it's kind of like some 1261 00:59:22.480 --> 00:59:25.920 for eternity yuck cup thing, and that's not what it 1262 00:59:25.960 --> 00:59:28.280 was about at all. But yeah, he wrote a lot 1263 00:59:28.320 --> 00:59:30.639 of books and did real well. And I got to 1264 00:59:30.679 --> 00:59:34.000 know him because he was looking for somebody. His grandson 1265 00:59:34.159 --> 00:59:36.599 was playing football University of Washington. He was looking for 1266 00:59:36.679 --> 00:59:41.360 his Seattle guy to do because his grandson won't do 1267 00:59:41.400 --> 00:59:43.519 an internship. And he called me up. I remember, Aunt, 1268 00:59:43.559 --> 00:59:45.079 I was at my office and my phone where I 1269 00:59:45.119 --> 00:59:47.679 asked and this officide detective sagree. He goes, is this Cloyd? 1270 00:59:47.960 --> 00:59:50.599 I go, yeah, yeah, who's this? He goes Joe Wamba? 1271 00:59:51.119 --> 00:59:54.159 I said, no, who is this? Really? Yeah? I read 1272 00:59:54.239 --> 00:59:56.199 his books. I read the News Centurion when I was 1273 00:59:56.320 --> 00:59:59.400 like fifteen, and that was that really got me one. 1274 01:00:00.480 --> 01:00:02.880 But I got to tell you a quick story. So, 1275 01:00:03.559 --> 01:00:06.320 so years ago before I became a cop, I uh, 1276 01:00:06.480 --> 01:00:09.480 I wanted to do a book report on for college. 1277 01:00:09.519 --> 01:00:11.679 I wanted to I wanted to blow up some pictures 1278 01:00:11.760 --> 01:00:14.800 from Helter Skelter. Oh yeah, you know, and and I 1279 01:00:14.920 --> 01:00:17.440 I remember they were like I went into Kinko's and 1280 01:00:17.480 --> 01:00:19.320 a lot of people don't even know what Kinko's is anymore, 1281 01:00:19.360 --> 01:00:20.840 but I went into Kinko's and they're like, yeah, you 1282 01:00:20.880 --> 01:00:22.960 can't do that. You got to you got to have 1283 01:00:23.000 --> 01:00:24.880 a copyright release. And and I was like, well, what 1284 01:00:25.079 --> 01:00:25.199 is that? 1285 01:00:25.440 --> 01:00:27.119 How do I think I'm just going to do it 1286 01:00:27.199 --> 01:00:27.719 present right? 1287 01:00:28.400 --> 01:00:30.800 And so I actually, uh, I called the publisher and 1288 01:00:31.119 --> 01:00:34.000 they said no. And so I don't give up that easy. 1289 01:00:34.039 --> 01:00:36.079 So I I call. I knew Vincent Biliosi was a 1290 01:00:36.199 --> 01:00:37.920 lawyer in Los Angeles, and so I just called his 1291 01:00:38.000 --> 01:00:40.400 law office and and I'll be darn, he called me 1292 01:00:40.599 --> 01:00:42.480 and and and I remember when he called me and 1293 01:00:42.599 --> 01:00:45.079 I we ended up having a conversation for like twenty 1294 01:00:45.159 --> 01:00:47.159 minutes and yeah, and

he wanted he didn't want to 1295 01:00:47.199 --> 01:00:49.159 talk about he goes. And I remember telling him. I 1296 01:00:49.199 --> 01:00:50.719 was like, you know, listen, this isn't to make any 1297 01:00:50.760 --> 01:00:52.639 money on this, I promise you. And he's like, oh, 1298 01:00:52.679 --> 01:00:54.000 I don't care if you do. Man, good for you 1299 01:00:54.079 --> 01:00:56.320 if you if you do. But he was really cool, 1300 01:00:56.480 --> 01:00:58.639 and he wanted to talk about his book called Outraged, 1301 01:00:58.639 --> 01:00:58.960 which was. 1302 01:00:58.960 --> 01:00:59.639 About the O. J. 1303 01:00:59.719 --> 01:01:03.320 SIPs case. I read that book, yeah, yeah, and so I, uh, 1304 01:01:03.800 --> 01:01:06.079 I always have regretted that I never called it because 1305 01:01:06.119 --> 01:01:08.000 he's one of the reasons that I mean that book, 1306 01:01:08.079 --> 01:01:09.480 of course, is the reason I wanted to be a 1307 01:01:09.559 --> 01:01:13.400 homicide detective that too. And when I lived in Los Angeles, 1308 01:01:13.440 --> 01:01:16.400 the hillside stranglers were running around and Kenneth Bianki's spending 1309 01:01:16.440 --> 01:01:19.400 time up in Walla, Walla. Right. Yeah, still, I've. 1310 01:01:19.239 --> 01:01:21.760 Actually got I was called by a producer one time 1311 01:01:22.239 --> 01:01:26.480 because they were doing a documentary on Byani, and he said, hey, 1312 01:01:27.400 --> 01:01:28.760 do you think is the guy? I already I had 1313 01:01:28.840 --> 01:01:31.920 doubt him before, And he goes, we want to get 1314 01:01:32.199 --> 01:01:34.840 the videos of his interrogations and stuff in the file. 1315 01:01:35.519 --> 01:01:37.519 Do you think if you called the Bellingham is the 1316 01:01:37.559 --> 01:01:39.840 city that happened, it's one hundred and twenty miles north 1317 01:01:39.880 --> 01:01:42.280 of me. You think if you called you could get 1318 01:01:42.320 --> 01:01:44.159 him for us? I said, I'll try. I call him 1319 01:01:44.239 --> 01:01:46.559 up and I said, hey, tomoy was I said, yeah, 1320 01:01:46.559 --> 01:01:49.480 I'm looking to get this, and they said, well, let 1321 01:01:49.519 --> 01:01:52.320 me call you back later. Calling back, he says, I 1322 01:01:52.360 --> 01:01:54.119 look you at man. Oh yeah, you can have everything. 1323 01:01:54.599 --> 01:01:56.440 So he sent me. Yeah, you can send me everything. 1324 01:01:56.480 --> 01:01:58.880 I still I kept the copy of on my computer. 1325 01:01:59.360 --> 01:02:02.039 That's cool. Yeah and all that's really cool. 1326 01:02:02.199 --> 01:02:02.440 Yeah. 1327 01:02:03.360 --> 01:02:06.800 Well uh so so let me let we're getting close 1328 01:02:06.800 --> 01:02:09.280 to the end here. What what what? Uh? What would 1329 01:02:09.320 --> 01:02:12.480 be your advice for somebody that you know is sitting 1330 01:02:12.559 --> 01:02:15.679 back and they they have dreamt of being a homicide 1331 01:02:15.719 --> 01:02:18.320 detective one day. What would be your advice to that 1332 01:02:18.440 --> 01:02:19.679 person as to you how to get there? 1333 01:02:20.119 --> 01:02:22.079 My first advice if you don't do it in Washington. 1334 01:02:23.800 --> 01:02:26.320 But uh, you know, you just got to First of all, 1335 01:02:26.840 --> 01:02:28.519 you got to become a police officer. First, you got 1336 01:02:28.599 --> 01:02:30.639 to do your time and patrol. But you want to 1337 01:02:31.239 --> 01:02:34.119 do just a little more than is expected of you 1338 01:02:34.880 --> 01:02:38.079 so people pay attention to you. And if you know, 1339 01:02:38.159 --> 01:02:40.039 don't slip off when you go to If you get 1340 01:02:40.079 --> 01:02:42.320 a detective job. I remember when I got a job 1341 01:02:42.360 --> 01:02:44.880 as a precinct detective. There were a bunch of people 1342 01:02:44.960 --> 01:02:47.719 passing the paper from this file to that file because 1343 01:02:47.719 --> 01:02:49.880 there are old guys just riding out the day job. 1344 01:02:50.480 --> 01:02:52.480 I was out kicking down doors getting search warrants and 1345 01:02:52.920 --> 01:02:55.440 you know, and they're like, what is I remember walking 1346 01:02:55.480 --> 01:02:57.599 in one time and goes, hey, I got a search warrant. 1347 01:02:57.920 --> 01:03:00.320 I need to have a couple of guys going. And 1348 01:03:00.400 --> 01:03:02.960 one of the old detectives you have, what a search 1349 01:03:03.000 --> 01:03:04.440 one is? Can I see it? And I showed it. 1350 01:03:04.519 --> 01:03:06.800 He'd never seen one, and he goes how did you 1351 01:03:06.880 --> 01:03:08.920 get that? I rode after David took it to the 1352 01:03:09.039 --> 01:03:13.360 judge excuse me, and they were shocked. But that's what 1353 01:03:13.400 --> 01:03:15.320 you gotta do those type of things. Don't be a 1354 01:03:15.400 --> 01:03:19.039 big deeper pusher. Don't do the men when you can 1355 01:03:19.480 --> 01:03:22.719 do more more than is expected of you and you're 1356 01:03:23.599 --> 01:03:25.960 being a good cop, and that's how you get these jobs. 1357 01:03:26.599 --> 01:03:28.840 I say that all the time. I mean, do more. 1358 01:03:29.119 --> 01:03:32.039 When I'm gonna, I speak a lot too. You still speak, 1359 01:03:32.280 --> 01:03:33.360 you still go all over the price. 1360 01:03:33.719 --> 01:03:33.880 I do. 1361 01:03:34.519 --> 01:03:34.679 I do. 1362 01:03:34.800 --> 01:03:36.639 I was supposed to. I was supposed to speak in 1363 01:03:37.480 --> 01:03:39.920 uh next week in Missouri, but I had to cancel 1364 01:03:40.000 --> 01:03:42.360 that too, So I'm gonna do it next year. But yeah, 1365 01:03:42.559 --> 01:03:44.800 well Catherine Ramsing gets me a lot of that. She 1366 01:03:44.880 --> 01:03:45.400 calls me up. 1367 01:03:45.760 --> 01:03:47.159 Well, yeah, she. 1368 01:03:47.239 --> 01:03:50.199 Goes you gotta She tells these people got call Chloyd 1369 01:03:50.719 -->

01:03:52.079 and so they do, you know, she. 1370 01:03:52.119 --> 01:03:54.639 Said, yeah, yeah, Well I'll tell you what I mean. 1371 01:03:54.679 --> 01:03:57.119 I'm I'm on the Committee for the Homicide Investigators of 1372 01:03:57.199 --> 01:04:00.960 Texas and uh and so uh we'll definitely keep you 1373 01:04:01.039 --> 01:04:02.280 in mind for for down the line. 1374 01:04:02.599 --> 01:04:03.000 For sure. 1375 01:04:03.079 --> 01:04:05.119 I would would love to have you there. So so 1376 01:04:05.400 --> 01:04:08.280 uh so that's good advice. Cloyd. I actually agree with 1377 01:04:08.280 --> 01:04:10.639 you one hundred percent. I'd add to that a little 1378 01:04:10.679 --> 01:04:12.440 bit and say, if you want to be in the 1379 01:04:12.480 --> 01:04:15.880 homicide unit, show up to homicides. 1380 01:04:15.840 --> 01:04:19.599 That's right, Yeah, were there. I used to when I 1381 01:04:19.719 --> 01:04:23.400 was patrol officer. My last we worked in a bad area, 1382 01:04:23.800 --> 01:04:25.440 but there were so many we have homicides, and I 1383 01:04:25.599 --> 01:04:27.440 was I would rush there and be the primary officer. 1384 01:04:27.719 --> 01:04:29.559 Remember the old homicide start. He goes, We're going to 1385 01:04:29.599 --> 01:04:31.519 get a cup for you in homicide. But is your 1386 01:04:31.599 --> 01:04:33.800 name one? I guess you're always the guy that's here. Yeah, 1387 01:04:33.960 --> 01:04:36.840 I later working with him, but yeah, yeah, that's it. 1388 01:04:37.159 --> 01:04:39.000 You got and do a good report. 1389 01:04:40.280 --> 01:04:43.880 You got it right, Well, yeah you got. When you're writing, 1390 01:04:43.920 --> 01:04:46.880 don't write in police jargon, write in English. 1391 01:04:47.400 --> 01:04:50.559 Yeah, yeah, those are good, good things. Man. I'll tell 1392 01:04:50.599 --> 01:04:53.920 you what, Cloyd. Uh, you know, you're somebody I look 1393 01:04:54.000 --> 01:04:56.000 up to in this business. And even though I've been 1394 01:04:56.039 --> 01:04:59.239 doing this forever, I say forever, nothing like what you did. 1395 01:04:59.320 --> 01:05:01.519 But I've been doing it for sixteen plus years. 1396 01:05:01.800 --> 01:05:05.519 And uh, you only got about for a few more 1397 01:05:05.559 --> 01:05:05.719 to go. 1398 01:05:06.400 --> 01:05:07.360 I know, I know. 1399 01:05:07.960 --> 01:05:09.280 I'll tell you what they took you there. 1400 01:05:10.000 --> 01:05:12.199 Yeah, they told me recently they said, well, it was 1401 01:05:12.320 --> 01:05:15.079 probably about a year ago. My boss did all the statistics, 1402 01:05:15.159 --> 01:05:17.719 and and I guess I'm number three all time for 1403 01:05:18.079 --> 01:05:20.920 for the lead on homicides in Tulsa. For yeah, well 1404 01:05:20.960 --> 01:05:24.039 for Tulsa just a homicide and and and you had 1405 01:05:24.079 --> 01:05:25.840 said I think I heard you say one thing. I 1406 01:05:26.119 --> 01:05:29.239 just just came to

my mind that the numbers of 1407 01:05:29.360 --> 01:05:31.000 murders that you had back in the day was a 1408 01:05:31.039 --> 01:05:32.159 lot more than it is today. 1409 01:05:32.239 --> 01:05:32.639 Is that right? 1410 01:05:33.039 --> 01:05:35.320 Well, well, maybe it's was. 1411 01:05:35.440 --> 01:05:38.480 Then it came back up in the last couple of years. 1412 01:05:39.199 --> 01:05:42.039 Yeah, yeah, are they still doing a pretty good job 1413 01:05:42.239 --> 01:05:42.519 solve it? 1414 01:05:43.840 --> 01:05:47.400 Yeah? I don't know. A year before last they said 1415 01:05:47.400 --> 01:05:49.400 a record for the most homicides in a year in Seattle. 1416 01:05:49.840 --> 01:05:51.599 Yeah, really, what was that number? 1417 01:05:51.679 --> 01:05:54.079 Do you know? It is like eighty five or something. 1418 01:05:54.159 --> 01:05:57.960 I forgot, you know, And oh, okay, yeah, I don't know. 1419 01:05:58.800 --> 01:06:01.760 So we might have we might have comparable numbers as Seattle. 1420 01:06:01.840 --> 01:06:03.400 Actually yeah, I don't. 1421 01:06:03.760 --> 01:06:06.559 I don't see the same people. Ask you as I know, 1422 01:06:06.719 --> 01:06:08.960 like two people that are homicide still, everybody else is 1423 01:06:09.039 --> 01:06:12.760 new because they've all it's all been rotated out, so 1424 01:06:13.239 --> 01:06:15.000 I know the command Yeah. 1425 01:06:15.679 --> 01:06:18.199 Yeah, I'll tell you what it's fascinating. I could I 1426 01:06:18.280 --> 01:06:20.800 could talk to you for hours, Cloyd, really that were 1427 01:06:20.880 --> 01:06:22.960 one of the guests said something about we need to 1428 01:06:23.000 --> 01:06:24.840 have you come back. Maybe we will. If you have 1429 01:06:24.960 --> 01:06:26.960 some additional cases that you want to come in, You're 1430 01:06:27.000 --> 01:06:27.800 You're welcome anytime. 1431 01:06:28.239 --> 01:06:30.320 If you read the book, if you find cases, mark 1432 01:06:30.360 --> 01:06:31.920 them down, or you can ask me about it, I will. 1433 01:06:32.000 --> 01:06:34.639 Then let's do that, because because I've got that book 1434 01:06:34.679 --> 01:06:36.480 it As a matter of fact, I'm really I'm really 1435 01:06:36.519 --> 01:06:38.760 disappointed it didn't show up already because it's supposed to 1436 01:06:38.800 --> 01:06:41.159 be here any day. It's probably gonna be here tomorrow. 1437 01:06:41.559 --> 01:06:45.559 But listen, Cloyd. Uh, and there's a third book that 1438 01:06:45.599 --> 01:06:47.159 I didn't put a picture. Is there a third book 1439 01:06:47.159 --> 01:06:47.760 that you wrote to. 1440 01:06:48.159 --> 01:06:50.960 Well, there's a third book that's like eighty percent done. 1441 01:06:51.239 --> 01:06:52.760 I haven't read published it. 1442 01:06:53.519 --> 01:06:56.559 Yeah, okay, but listen, man, I I I really do 1443 01:06:56.679 --> 01:07:00.400 appreciate you. I have matters respect for for for you. 1444 01:07:00.480 --> 01:07:03.480

Guys are like the people I look up to, you know, 1445 01:07:04.119 --> 01:07:06.840 in this world, and you've been there and done it, 1446 01:07:07.360 --> 01:07:10.360 and you were extremely successful at it. Like I said, 1447 01:07:10.400 --> 01:07:12.599 there's a lot of similarities between me and you. Both. 1448 01:07:12.639 --> 01:07:16.800 I've been I've been teaching, interviewing, interrogation, and death investigations 1449 01:07:17.079 --> 01:07:19.559 right for years, you know, here, to all the academy 1450 01:07:19.599 --> 01:07:23.360 classes and right throughout wherever. But man, I'll tell you what. 1451 01:07:23.480 --> 01:07:25.159 I think. This is an epic show. I think you 1452 01:07:25.840 --> 01:07:28.320 just you've given you your time. Thank you so much. 1453 01:07:28.679 --> 01:07:30.719 I really do appreciate it. Ladies and gentlemen, if you 1454 01:07:30.800 --> 01:07:33.079 get a chance, check out the websites and man to 1455 01:07:33.199 --> 01:07:36.039 throw those throw his website up again. That's a place 1456 01:07:36.079 --> 01:07:38.719 that it talks about his book. Feel free to go there. 1457 01:07:39.280 --> 01:07:41.480 And I think you do private investigation? Do you still 1458 01:07:41.559 --> 01:07:41.719 do that? 1459 01:07:41.840 --> 01:07:44.079 Do you still do that? I don't do it. I 1460 01:07:44.239 --> 01:07:46.400 want to tell you right now, I don't do fidelity cases. 1461 01:07:46.559 --> 01:07:49.039 Are you that crap? Mostly I do death invested people. 1462 01:07:49.119 --> 01:07:52.159 Have you know, I get the my brother. They said 1463 01:07:52.159 --> 01:07:53.800 it was an overdose or an accent, but I know 1464 01:07:53.840 --> 01:07:55.920 it was murdered. You know when I review those cases 1465 01:07:56.239 --> 01:07:57.719 or you know, I haven't seen my brother. I haven't 1466 01:07:57.719 --> 01:07:59.559 seen my brother in twenty years. Can you find them? Yeah? 1467 01:07:59.559 --> 01:08:01.920 I can find him, you know. Yeah? 1468 01:08:02.000 --> 01:08:04.079 Okay, I mean and just because he's up there in 1469 01:08:04.119 --> 01:08:07.320 the Seattle area doesn't mean he can't work for you anywhere, right, 1470 01:08:07.519 --> 01:08:09.440 so yeah, yeah, for sure. 1471 01:08:10.559 --> 01:08:13.559 I get death cases from all over the country. You know, 1472 01:08:13.639 --> 01:08:15.519 people have death cases and they want to I know 1473 01:08:15.639 --> 01:08:17.560 this was murder, but they say it wasn't. But yeah, 1474 01:08:17.560 --> 01:08:19.560 I got to tell you upfront before you waste your money. 1475 01:08:20.319 --> 01:08:22.840 They almost always are what the what the medical zamiter said? 1476 01:08:22.840 --> 01:08:26.159 They were, Yeah, Hey, what's the level of cooperation from 1477 01:08:26.199 --> 01:08:27.760 police departments throughout the time? 1478 01:08:28.000 --> 01:08:29.840 It's okay. I mean I don't do a lot of 1479 01:08:29.880 --> 01:08:31.680 direct contact with him. You know, they're not going to 1480 01:08:31.760 --> 01:08:33.520 release the case ful of and then cell case to me, 1481 01:08:34.279 --> 01:08:37.920 you know, as you know. But but you know, as 1482 01:08:37.960 --> 01:08:39.800 far as talking to him, I've never had a problem. 1483 01:08:40.399 --> 01:08:43.279 You know, if I tell him who I am or things, 1484 01:08:43.399 --> 01:08:44.880 and so I don't have a problem. 1485 01:08:45.960 --> 01:08:47.960 Well all right, hey Cloyd, if you ever have plans 1486 01:08:48.000 --> 01:08:49.880 to go interview some serial killer in the future and 1487 01:08:49.920 --> 01:08:55.960 you need somebody to carry your bag, let me all right. 1488 01:08:56.039 --> 01:08:58.000 I think that'd be fascinating. But anyway, ladies and gentlemen, 1489 01:08:58.119 --> 01:09:01.119 read his books. Check him out. Uh, And if you 1490 01:09:01.279 --> 01:09:03.640 need to talk to him about I loved One's case 1491 01:09:03.680 --> 01:09:06.039 that you felt, I mean, I'm sure that there's there's 1492 01:09:06.039 --> 01:09:07.600 definitely a cost with it. And if you're looking for 1493 01:09:07.600 --> 01:09:09.800 an expert witness, and you happen to be somebody that's uh, 1494 01:09:10.119 --> 01:09:12.399 I know he does that too. He does that too, 1495 01:09:13.079 --> 01:09:16.720 So he's definitely he's definitely somebody that has been there 1496 01:09:16.760 --> 01:09:19.239 and done it and has a tremendous amount of experience. 1497 01:09:19.680 --> 01:09:21.600 Ladies and gentlemen. I can't thank you all enough for 1498 01:09:21.720 --> 01:09:24.880 being here. Uh we this isn't I say this a lot. 1499 01:09:25.079 --> 01:09:27.479 This is not a show without you. And and I 1500 01:09:27.560 --> 01:09:32.439 appreciate those that have liked and subs subscribe, subscribe, listen. 1501 01:09:32.520 --> 01:09:34.800 It takes you abouto point three seconds to do it, 1502 01:09:35.239 --> 01:09:38.159 and it helps the algorithm. And that's why I keep 1503 01:09:38.319 --> 01:09:41.359 asking you and uh and that, and we want to 1504 01:09:41.399 --> 01:09:43.960 have as many viewers as possible here and check us out. 1505 01:09:44.039 --> 01:09:46.079 Make sure that you follow me on my YouTube page, 1506 01:09:46.560 --> 01:09:49.680 Detective Jason White. And and I've also got a Facebook 1507 01:09:49.680 --> 01:09:51.840 page Detective Jason White and an Instagram so you can 1508 01:09:51.920 --> 01:09:54.479 check me out there, Twitter, all of it. I'm basically 1509 01:09:54.520 --> 01:09:58.319 all over that stuff. And and uh, listen, Cloyd, you're 1510 01:09:58.359 --> 01:10:00.720 one of You're one of a very very You're one 1511 01:10:00.760 --> 01:10:02.840 of the small group of people. If there was a 1512 01:10:02.920 --> 01:10:05.880 mount rushmore of homicide detectives you're probably arguably going to 1513 01:10:05.920 --> 01:10:08.039 be on it, So thank you for being here. Buddy, 1514 01:10:08.119 --> 01:10:10.960 really leaves in the world. Thanks for having me stick 1515 01:10:11.000 --> 01:10:12.800 around for a minute. Don't click off when we get 1516 01:10:12.840 --> 01:10:16.880 out of here next week. Next week, I'm actually speaking 1517 01:10:16.920 --> 01:10:20.199 in California, so we are not going to have a 1518 01:10:20.279 --> 01:10:23.039 live episode, but I'm going to have an episode that's 1519 01:10:23.079 --> 01:10:25.319 going to be on here, and actually it's going to 1520 01:10:25.359 --> 01:10:30.960 be Shannon Coolness. Shannon Coolness from Gwinnette County. It's kind 1521 01:10:30.960 --> 01:10:32.920 of like a First forty eight Where are they now? 1522 01:10:33.399 --> 01:10:35.479 She doesn't work there at Gwinnette County any longer, but 1523 01:10:35.560 --> 01:10:37.760 you've seen her on the First forty eight and so 1524 01:10:37.960 --> 01:10:39.279 I thought it'd be fun to have her on here. 1525 01:10:39.319 --> 01:10:41.119 It's a lot of fun. It's a fun episode. She'll 1526 01:10:41.119 --> 01:10:43.920 be on there next week October tenth, so check it 1527 01:10:44.000 --> 01:10:47.439 out and we'll drop that at seven pm next Friday. 1528 01:10:47.880 --> 01:10:50.079 And until then, ladies and gentlemen, thank you all for 1529 01:10:50.159 --> 01:10:53.399 being here. Have a safe week, Take us out. Amanda