התמלול המלא של Camp Is Not Magic - with Jake Sorenson - Intentionally Intentional Leaders

kind of this one-on-one with the pastor, or not one-on-one, but there were three of us in the class, and it was confirmation class, and just the encouragement to ask questions, and I would try to ask like really hard questions and stump the pastor, sort of just be that little jerk. 00:04:40.639 --> 00:05:01.040 And it was it was always taken with grace, and you know, I reflected on that later about just how meaningful that was that yeah, they just took it and said, you know what, this is this is where you're at, and I'm gonna answer honestly, as if these are coming from a real place and not just from some mouthy 12-year-old. 00:05:01.439 --> 00:05:01.839 Right. 00:05:02.079 --> 00:05:03.120 Totally, totally. 00:05:03.279 --> 00:05:10.800 It for those who didn't grow up in the the same faith background as you and I, confirmation class is like a preparation to become a member, effectively. 00:05:11.360 --> 00:05:17.040 Yeah, it's not it's it's not it's not quite membership, it's it's it's sort of a coming of age. 00:05:17.199 --> 00:05:26.879 And so if you think of in the Jewish tradition, the the bar mitzvah, the bot mitzvah, it's very similar to that coming of age, and it's right around the same age period that we do that in the church. 00:05:26.959 --> 00:05:29.680 It's sort of the you're becoming an adult in the church. 00:05:29.759 --> 00:05:36.240 That's the idea of confirmation, and so um, yeah, it's a c it's a coming of age ritual and and program. 00:05:37.680 --> 00:05:38.800 That's great, thank you. 00:05:39.040 --> 00:05:44.959 Okay, we shall roll again, okay, and get 13 this time. 00:05:45.439 --> 00:05:46.720 Lucky number 13. 00:05:47.439 --> 00:05:49.360 Lucky 13, here we roll. 00:05:49.920 --> 00:05:57.439 What is an early disappointing experience for you that now feels like it's a blessing or that you have benefited from that disappointment? 00:05:58.560 --> 00:06:04.959 An early disappointing experience for me that now I feel like is a blessing. 00:06:05.040 --> 00:06:06.160 It's like, hmm. 00:06:07.040 --> 00:06:08.319 Boy, this is a stumper. 00:06:08.480 --> 00:06:10.399 Can I flip this one so you get to answer first? 00:06:10.480 --> 00:06:11.600 Because I need some time to think. 00:06:12.639 --> 00:06:13.519 Sure, totally. 00:06:13.920 --> 00:06:15.279 An early flip, thank you. 00:06:15.600 --> 00:06:18.079 Yeah, disappointing early experiences. 00:06:18.240 --> 00:06:28.480 I I mean I think that there was a lot of realizing that adults aren't perfect or that my own parents weren't perfect. 00:06:28.800 --> 00:06:35.120 I certainly had a weird my my dad was an interesting parent. 00:06:35.360 --> 00:06:51.120 He didn't have a lot of patience when we were working on farm stuff, like I was helping out farm stuff, but then if something massive would happen, like I almost ripped an auger off the side of a silo one time, not just by accident, driving a a grain bin underneath it. 00:06:51.279 --> 00:06:52.800 And he was totally chill. 00:06:52.959 --> 00:06:58.720 And that whole thing, like I'd just been so used to this him being like on the edge, just frustrated all the time. 00:06:58.879 --> 00:07:03.279 I know it wasn't me now, just kept sort of the finding lifestyle, but something big would happen. 00:07:03.360 --> 00:07:05.279 He would just calm right down and be like, it's okay. 00:07:05.439 --> 00:07:07.040 Like I thought I'd get in so much trouble. 00:07:07.199 --> 00:07:11.279 So that that I found really kind of disorienting. 00:07:11.439 --> 00:07:15.920 But now I think back on it, it it definitely has taught me a lot about my dad. 00:07:16.160 --> 00:07:33.600 And I certainly think about it, my relationship with my father and those examples when I think about being a grandparent, because I have two grandkids, so those things come back and and not always positive lessons, but definitely sort of a file of I'm gonna try my best to not do that that way. 00:07:34.240 --> 00:07:34.800 Gotcha. 00:07:35.279 --> 00:07:38.639 But then in the emergency, great, so yeah, it's confusing. 00:07:38.800 --> 00:07:40.319 But well, thanks for sharing. 00:07:40.399 --> 00:07:41.920 I that gave me some time to think. 00:07:42.079 --> 00:07:49.839 And so I think mine, the one that I was settling on because it just got it, it came in my head, was uh from little league baseball. 00:07:50.000 --> 00:08:02.000 And so, like growing up, I kind of I thought of myself as the fast kid because you know, when you only have like 20 other kids around you and you're the fastest one, wow, I'm the fast kid, right? 00:08:02.240 --> 00:08:18.240 And so I remember the first time when I was on the little league team, and there was, you know, it was whatever the 10 and under or the 12 and under, whatever, whichever one it was, but you had the older age group with you, and there was one kid that beat me in the in kind of the base running drill. 00:08:18.399 --> 00:08:25.360 And and sort of that rearrangement in my head of okay, who am I if I'm not the fast kid? 00:08:25.519 --> 00:08:27.120 You know, what what's my what's my identity? 00:08:27.199 --> 00:08:33.840 Because that was part of my identity, people that would say, Oh, that's the fast one, you know, and then to get beat for the first time, right? 00:08:34.000 --> 00:08:41.440 As a young kid, but to but to really start to think about okay, what does that mean and how then do I respond? 00:08:41.679 --> 00:08:56.799 And and so not not to totally re uh realign my under my self-understanding, but one, hey, if I want to keep being fast, I need to practice, I need to work out, I need to do some things. 00:08:56.879 --> 00:09:09.039 It it doesn't just come, it's not just part part of what I am or who I am, and so I actually have to work at things, and so some of those things, and and I had other lessons like that with things like academics and other things like that, where I found it challenging. 00:09:09.279 --> 00:09:14.480 And so that one in

particular sticks in my head just because of the the race itself. 00:09:14.879 --> 00:09:32.240 But I think of that in terms of camp and the importance of encountering challenges for these young people at camp and how that can be transformative in the sense of things come so easy to me, and now there's this thing that's challenging to me, or if I I find a little frightening, I find a little uncomfortable. 00:09:32.559 --> 00:09:34.559 And what do I do with that? 00:09:34.639 --> 00:09:35.679 How do I work through that? 00:09:35.759 --> 00:09:37.279 What does this mean for my identity? 00:09:37.440 --> 00:09:42.480 What does this mean for how I approach life and different different life situations? 00:09:43.440 --> 00:09:44.080 Yeah. 00:09:44.960 --> 00:09:45.279 Yeah. 00:09:46.080 --> 00:09:53.759 One of our directors used to remind me that the the work for us used to remind me that that camp is a place where kids learn that they can do hard things. 00:09:54.000 --> 00:09:54.320 Yes. 00:09:54.559 --> 00:09:56.720 And you know, it's a safe place to do that. 00:09:56.879 --> 00:09:57.200 Yeah. 00:09:57.600 --> 00:09:58.159 I get that. 00:09:58.320 --> 00:09:58.720 Absolutely. 00:10:00.320 --> 00:10:02.720 One of the great lessons of camp, you can do hard things. 00:10:02.879 --> 00:10:03.840 Yes, I agree. 00:10:04.159 --> 00:10:04.960 I agree. 00:10:05.279 --> 00:10:07.440 Question number two. 00:10:09.759 --> 00:10:17.279 When for you did you realize camp could be a career, not just a thing that you got to do in the summer? 00:10:18.080 --> 00:10:19.600 Yeah, that's a okay. 00:10:19.679 --> 00:10:21.759 So this was this is a specific memory. 00:10:22.000 --> 00:10:31.039 And so I went to camp for just two years when I was uh when I was a camper, and then you know, got into high school and was out of camp for a long time. 00:10:31.200 --> 00:10:36.960 And then it was my pastor who said, Hey, the camp is looking for some workers this summer. 00:10:37.120 --> 00:10:38.159 Would you be willing to do it? 00:10:38.240 --> 00:10:42.399 And I did, and I remember interviewing with this longtime director. 00:10:42.480 --> 00:10:46.799 He he he ended up serving there for 25 years, and so this was kind of in the middle of his tenure there. 00:10:46.960 --> 00:10:49.039 When he sat me down at Perkins, you know, or something. 00:10:49.120 --> 00:10:52.480 What we went to a restaurant and and he interviewed me and hired me. 00:10:52.639 --> 00:10:55.200 And so he became sort of this mentor in that sense, right? 00:10:55.279 --> 00:11:01.519 Yeah, and so I was on staff for two summers at that camp in southwest Wisconsin at Sugar Creek Bible Camp. 00:11:02.080 --> 00:11:10.000 And after the second summer, we had a staff reunion, and it was usually around like New Year's time. 00:11:10.159 --> 00:11:18.000 And so we would get together, and about half of us would be able to make it, and we'd, you know, celebrate the cool summer and talk about the summer to come. 00:11:18.159 --> 00:11:23.600 And so my intention was always to come back for my third summer at that camp. 00:11:24.240 --> 00:11:38.879 And the program director at the time had just accepted a new position at a camp out in Colorado, and he pulled a few of us aside and said, Hey, you know, I could really use some great staff out there, and if you guys wanted to, it would be great to have you. 00:11:39.120 --> 00:11:41.279 And so he was basically poaching us, right? 00:11:41.440 --> 00:11:42.639 From this, from this camp. 00:11:42.799 --> 00:11:47.039 Okay, so this was the program director, not the not the director that had been there for 20-something years, right? 00:11:47.440 --> 00:11:50.480 And so I was really struggling with this because this was my home camp. 00:11:50.639 --> 00:11:52.159 Sugar Creek was my place. 00:11:52.399 --> 00:11:55.840 And I was like, Do I really want to go to a different camp? 00:11:56.080 --> 00:11:58.399 What is this, what would this mean? 00:11:58.559 --> 00:12:04.480 And so I I actually asked the director, and I remember walking with him, and I remember where we were out on camp. 00:12:04.639 --> 00:12:17.200 We were walking in this in this really cool spot on camp and talking with each other, and I brought it up and I said, Look, you know, Joel, the program director, is he he was wondering if I if I would work with him out at Sky Ranch, and what do you think about that? 00:12:17.440 --> 00:12:22.240 And this is what he said, and his name's Dick Iverson, longtime director at Sugar Creek Bible Camp. 00:12:22.399 --> 00:12:30.240 And he said, Well, I think you should do it, and then you should come back and be program director here. 00:12:30.960 --> 00:12:31.519 Right. 00:12:32.240 --> 00:12:37.759 And it was that moment of I see this in you. 00:12:38.080 --> 00:12:46.480 Yes, I see what you should, you you could be, and I'm willing, I I I recognize that you're a great staff person, right? 00:12:46.799 --> 00:12:57.120 He's recognizing that in the moment, and he's saying, and go, learn something, learn about a different camp, and then come back here and serve the place you love even better. 00:12:57.440 --> 00:12:57.919 Right. 00:12:58.159 --> 00:13:00.399 And 10 years later, that's exactly what I did. 00:13:00.639 --> 00:13:02.639 He hired me as program director there. 00:13:02.879 --> 00:13:09.440 And so, you know, you think about moments like that, and you think about how we can be mentors to these young people. 00:13:09.679 --> 00:13:15.120 It really is amazing how few of them are being told things like this in their lives. 00:13:15.360 --> 00:13:17.279 Yes, yes, amazing. 00:13:18.080 --> 00:13:18.720 It's unbelievable. 00:13:18.799 --> 00:13:29.600 I mean, like my memories, again, I you know, like I've made clear I grew up in the church, and that that's just part of my identity, but there were so many people along the way who said, Hey, hey, have you considered a career in the church? 00:13:29.840 -->

00:13:31.440 Have you considered becoming a pastor? 00:13:31.600 --> 00:13:33.759 Have you considered becoming a youth a youth worker? 00:13:33.919 --> 00:13:37.759 You know, all these people that have that were encouraging me, mentoring me along the way. 00:13:38.000 --> 00:13:39.600 I met a young person this summer. 00:13:39.679 --> 00:13:45.440 Actually, I've known this person for a while, but they were they were at a day camp that I was helping run in our local community. 00:13:45.600 --> 00:13:49.440 And it was a great staff person, just outstanding counselor. 00:13:49.759 --> 00:13:50.000 Yeah. 00:13:50.240 --> 00:13:57.200 And you know, I was talking about, you know, asking him what he was thinking about doing, and he was kind of you know talking about being a teacher, different things like that. 00:13:57.519 --> 00:14:03.759 And, you know, I asked him if he's considered, you know, a profession in the church or a profession at camp. 00:14:04.000 --> 00:14:06.480 And he's like, Well, nobody's ever really asked me that before. 00:14:06.559 --> 00:14:07.519 And I was like, What? 00:14:07.840 --> 00:14:08.799 Are you kidding me? 00:14:09.120 --> 00:14:16.720 Somebody of your abilities, somebody of your passion, nobody has encouraged you in this direction. 00:14:16.879 --> 00:14:18.159 And so I made sure I did that. 00:14:18.320 --> 00:14:30.320 But yeah, you know, as I think back to to the the the question that you asked, it was this moment and this mentor who I respected who said to me, I think you should go have this experience and then come back and be this. 00:14:30.399 --> 00:14:34.720 And that's that's that's when it really clicked that this is something that I could do full-time. 00:14:34.960 --> 00:14:36.399 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:14:36.799 --> 00:14:48.639 You know, this reminds me that I if there was one lesson I could give to every single camp staff member, it is just to give kids an individual moment of attention. 00:14:49.039 --> 00:14:51.120 It doesn't have to be a life-changing question like that. 00:14:51.279 --> 00:14:57.440 It could, it could be you don't know what those moments are gonna be, but making them feel noticed is so incredibly important. 00:14:57.759 --> 00:15:02.639 At camp, you know, as a camp counselor, young, young adult, you're like, I've got my one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight kids. 00:15:02.720 --> 00:15:04.159 I'm moving them from place to place. 00:15:04.320 --> 00:15:10.960 But if you just stop and like just talk to one, you don't know necessarily what that conversation's gonna mean. 00:15:11.200 --> 00:15:12.480 But I I'm the same as you. 00:15:12.559 --> 00:15:20.320 I had a a life-changing experience because one of my favorite, most respected camp people asked me a question when I was 13. 00:15:20.559 --> 00:15:25.840 There's no way you and I would be talking had he not said, you know, you would be a great camp cancellor, Travis. 00:15:26.000 --> 00:15:28.080 So the impact is immeasurable.

00:15:28.159 --> 00:15:33.440 And so, yeah, that's always one of those things like talk to the kids, just have a moment with each one. 00:15:33.679 --> 00:15:34.159 Absolutely. 00:15:34.320 --> 00:15:47.679 And and I I think I think Travis, it's it's more than just saying do this, and because if we don't program for it and we don't have some sort of system to make sure we're doing it and to keep us accountable to it, then we let the moments pass. 00:15:48.159 --> 00:15:51.840 Um and we say, Oh, I maybe I missed a moment, but maybe another one will come. 00:15:51.919 --> 00:15:53.840 And then sometimes it doesn't ever come. 00:15:54.159 --> 00:15:58.240 And so making sure we program for these things in our spaces, I think, can be really important. 00:15:58.320 --> 00:16:03.840 And so, one of the things that I, you know, a lot of camps do this, but how do you program for things like affirmations? 00:16:04.080 --> 00:16:13.279 You know, is there a specific time or a specific program, a specific method that you do to make sure the young people are giving each other affirmations? 00:16:13.360 --> 00:16:16.639 And it's a time set apart to say, I think you're great at this. 00:16:16.799 --> 00:16:21.279 This is what I see in you, and also for a chance for the staff members to do that. 00:16:21.759 --> 00:16:26.480 One of the camps that I worked at, I was program director, and it was actually Sugar Creek when I was there. 00:16:26.799 --> 00:16:33.440 But there was this program where we we went out on the Mississippi River and they camped out on the beach with campers, right? 00:16:33.519 --> 00:16:38.000 And so they were in houseboats, it was this really cool, it was an amazing program, amazing program in the high schoolers. 00:16:38.399 --> 00:16:40.799 And it was this program called Counselors on the Beach. 00:16:40.960 --> 00:16:58.799 And it was this time when the campers were just hanging out, but it was kind of free time, and the counselors were spaced out on the beach, not spaced out like Willow man, but they were they were they were separated, you know, they were close enough that it was that was kind of safe and you were in this this this open space, but and there was just a chair next to them. 00:16:58.879 --> 00:17:04.880 So and the counselors could go off and or the campers could have a one-on-one with one of the counselors, yeah. 00:17:05.680 --> 00:17:10.960 And at the end of the week, I because I always got to look at the camper evaluations at the end of the week. 00:17:11.039 --> 00:17:18.960 Yep, yeah, that was the number one thing that the campers said that they they enjoyed most about camp in that program was counselors on the beach. 00:17:19.039 --> 00:17:19.359 Yep. 00:17:19.599 --> 00:17:28.160 Because they felt heard, they felt listened to, and it was that opportunity for the counselor to say something one-on-one about what they appreciated about each camper. 00:17:28.480 --> 00:17:29.519 Special, special time. 00:17:29.759 --> 00:17:31.279 But how are you programming for it, right? 00:17:31.440 --> 00:17:36.400 Because if we're always doing paintball or we're always doing high ropes, or we're always doing whatever, yeah. 00:17:36.559 --> 00:17:39.920 Um, we don't necessarily have time programmed for this. 00:17:40.400 --> 00:17:41.359 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:17:42.240 --> 00:17:48.559 And you know, I it the amount of virals I've got over saying this in presentations and conferences. 00:17:49.200 --> 00:17:51.759 We made our counselors have a checklist of kids. 00:17:51.839 --> 00:17:53.200 So kids would come for six days. 00:17:53.359 --> 00:17:57.599 If this is a program and I was running it's four weeks long, the counselor would have one for every week. 00:17:57.839 --> 00:18:02.480 Every kid's name, you cross it off when you've had a solo conversation with that kid. 00:18:02.720 --> 00:18:04.720 Doesn't have to be big and important, but you cross it. 00:18:04.960 --> 00:18:10.960 I you're gonna have to show me at the end of the week that you have had one simple conversation with each kid. 00:18:12.400 --> 00:18:17.519 That's what because we just don't know what that's gonna mean, but a lot of those kids won't ever get that from anyone else. 00:18:17.920 --> 00:18:18.400 Right. 00:18:18.720 --> 00:18:24.720 Individualized attention, one-on-one with the counselor, where the counselor says something specific to them and for them. 00:18:25.039 --> 00:18:31.279 Yeah, it's so important because so many of these kids feel like they're just part of the crowd or they're unseen. 00:18:31.759 --> 00:18:36.240 They don't feel special in in in certain ways, and we can tell them how we're how they're special. 00:18:36.480 --> 00:18:42.000 And those counselors, I mean, because you're with them, you know, 24 hours a day for multiple days. 00:18:42.160 --> 00:18:48.079 You really get to know the individuals of these of these kids, and you really get to care about them and about who they are. 00:18:48.240 --> 00:18:50.480 Tell them and and and programming that. 00:18:50.559 --> 00:18:52.000 And I like the idea of a checklist. 00:18:52.079 --> 00:18:53.119 It's simple, right? 00:18:54.079 --> 00:18:54.880 Have you done this? 00:18:55.039 --> 00:18:55.839 You know, yep. 00:18:57.119 --> 00:19:07.599 Some people are so I don't know, enamored or caught up in the camp needs to be magic, and these have to be like you know, just happen. 00:19:07.680 --> 00:19:16.319 If they don't just happen, then they it's like we need to make sure it is so important that we have a system around this, or kids, yeah. 00:19:16.400 --> 00:19:19.839 It's like you said, that the moment may not come back again. 00:19:20.079 --> 00:19:21.519 You gotta take advantage of them. 00:19:21.759 --> 00:19:24.000 Yeah, it's not it's not magic, it's intentionality. 00:19:24.160 --> 00:19:26.880 No, I mean, yeah, what do you call this podcast again? 00:19:27.119 --> 00:19:28.640 Intentional leaders or something like that?

00:19:29.039 --> 00:19:33.119 Like yeah, we need to be intentional, we need to program for this. 00:19:33.279 --> 00:19:34.799 It doesn't just happen. 00:19:35.039 --> 00:19:42.480 You know, we we need to train for the serendipitous moments and make sure that we're taking advantage of the teachable moments, but sometimes we miss them. 00:19:42.799 --> 00:19:48.000 And so, how are we programming and making sure that that happens at during the the scheduled time as well? 00:19:48.480 --> 00:19:54.720 Yes, yep, and the big ups to Beth and Gabs from the Camp Code podcast for giving us the title of this. 00:19:54.880 --> 00:19:57.440 This is something they talk about in Camp Code all the time. 00:19:57.759 --> 00:20:07.599 Yeah, Jake, I'm gonna I'm gonna cheat a little bit and put put in a fourth question in the section because I think it leads lends well into talking about sacred playgrounds. 00:20:08.000 --> 00:20:13.680 Uh, what is something that camp parents consistently get wrong about what camp does for their kids? 00:20:14.079 --> 00:20:16.799 Something that camp parents consistently get wrong? 00:20:17.279 --> 00:20:17.680 Yeah. 00:20:18.160 --> 00:20:21.119 About what camp does for their kids. 00:20:21.599 --> 00:20:22.240 Yeah. 00:20:23.039 --> 00:20:30.160 I think I think parents sometimes have low expectations for camp. 00:20:30.400 --> 00:20:30.960 Yes. 00:20:31.279 --> 00:20:36.000 I think that's where I'd go because I I I was kind of rattling through my head when you asked this question. 00:20:36.079 --> 00:20:41.359 I was rattling through my head of all these different expectations that parents have of camp, and some of them are unreasonable and all this stuff. 00:20:41.599 --> 00:20:47.839 But you know, this idea that they're gonna have fun, that they're gonna meet new friends, that all these things are are reasonable expectations, I think. 00:20:48.000 --> 00:20:50.880 I think the unreasonable one is that it's not that big a deal. 00:20:51.039 --> 00:20:59.759 It's that it's just a time filler, and and they're they're not expecting it to really impact the kids in all in in some of the ways it oftentimes does. 00:20:59.920 --> 00:21:04.640 And so, I mean, I've had conversations with with with campers and former campers before. 00:21:04.720 --> 00:21:12.319 Actually, a a really good friend talks about when she went to camp and had this sort of life-changing experience, right? 00:21:12.480 --> 00:21:25.279 And would come home on fire for her faith and uh wanting to do good in the world, and just really, you know, wants to hit the ground running and and just change things for the better. 00:21:25.599 --> 00:21:40.160 And she talks about the way that her parents were standoffish for with her for the first few days and weeks, and they would they actually told her, and I think the second year that this happened, we're just gonna wait until you get back to normal. 00:21:41.440 --> 00:21:42.799 Can you imagine that? 00:21:43.440 --> 00:21:52.240 Like you come home passionate, you come home with this life changing experience, and not only is it not affirmed, but it's just like that's something weird. 00:21:52.480 --> 00:21:57.039 You're you're you're being super weird right now, and we're gonna wait till you get back to normal. 00:21:57.119 --> 00:21:59.759 And I I so I I would say that's something that parents get. 00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:09.599 Consistently wrong is the low expectations and just expecting that the kid's gonna go, they're gonna have a good week, gonna have some fun, get some fresh air, and then come home. 00:22:09.920 --> 00:22:17.200 That's that's lowballing the expectations of camp because what we know is that that camp really can be transformative, can be life-changing. 00:22:17.440 --> 00:22:27.200 It's not transformative, life-changing for every kid, but the the elements are there for it to really be a po have powerful impacts in these young people's lives. 00:22:27.440 --> 00:22:33.440 And and parents, I I I want them to recognize this and to acknowledge it when the when the campers come home. 00:22:33.759 --> 00:22:34.400 Yeah. 00:22:35.519 --> 00:22:39.440 One of my oldest friends, I've known her since we were three. 00:22:39.599 --> 00:22:49.920 I remember after coming back to camp the summer after 12th grade, and her saying to me, Travis, you come home more like yourself every summer. 00:22:50.480 --> 00:22:52.799 So it's the exact opposite of that parent thing. 00:22:52.880 --> 00:22:58.079 It's like in how many years later I still remember her saying that. 00:22:58.240 --> 00:22:59.839 I was like, Yeah, yeah, I think you're right. 00:22:59.920 --> 00:23:01.680 Like I think that that's that's true. 00:23:03.680 --> 00:23:04.640 Has done that for me for sure. 00:23:05.519 --> 00:23:06.079 That's beautiful. 00:23:06.160 --> 00:23:06.880 Thank you for saying that. 00:23:07.359 --> 00:23:08.720 This is who you are, right? 00:23:09.039 --> 00:23:10.319 Yeah, this is who you are. 00:23:11.119 --> 00:23:11.599 I love that. 00:23:11.920 --> 00:23:12.400 That's great. 00:23:13.839 --> 00:23:18.000 I I asked that question to lead us in to talk about Sacred Playgrounds. 00:23:18.480 --> 00:23:24.960 I know that you do a lot of research with a lot of camps on the effects of camp, but there's some real specifics of that. 00:23:25.039 --> 00:23:29.680 And I think that you have such a unique and special job in this industry. 00:23:29.920 --> 00:23:35.920 Can you can you tell us a bit about why Sacred Playgrounds does what it does? 00:23:36.240 --> 00:23:36.559 Yeah. 00:23:36.799 --> 00:23:37.039 Yeah. 00:23:37.119 --> 00:23:47.200 So Sacred Playgrounds, it's it's really been a labor of love for this industry because our team has been impacted by the camp experience. 00:23:47.519 --> 00:23:55.599 And we want to help people tell their story, and we want to elevate the conversation about what camp is and what camp does. 00:23:55.680 --> 00:23:57.759 And so we work

primarily with Christian camps. 00:23:57.920 --> 00:24:03.039 That's kind of our our the main pond that we swim in, but work with uh adjacent to camps of all sorts. 00:24:03.200 --> 00:24:09.759 And so what we say is we generate insights, we equip leaders and we connect partners to help camp ministries thrive. 00:24:09.920 --> 00:24:15.839 And so the generating insights I think is the is what we're most known for in terms of the research and evaluation work that we do. 00:24:15.920 --> 00:24:21.359 So we do a lot of individual evaluation work through the things like the Effective Camp Project, and we've got the five fundamentals of camp. 00:24:21.440 --> 00:24:26.720 And so we've got these insights that we're able to generate for individual camps and for the camp industry. 00:24:26.799 --> 00:24:29.920 And we've published a lot on that, but that's not all we do, right? 00:24:30.000 --> 00:24:39.119 We we also like to do this equipping of leaders and and and really resource people again with with numbers and with stories, but also with practical skills. 00:24:39.279 --> 00:24:49.440 And so uh getting involved in things like the camp well trainings is something that's been really important for us, doing staff trainings and and getting on the ground and how can we how can we do these things more intentionally? 00:24:49.680 --> 00:24:53.200 And then the connection and the connecting partners is that third thing that we do. 00:24:53.359 --> 00:24:59.359 And that's something that we're really passionate about because we like connecting people ecumenically, not just one faith tradition, but all of them. 00:24:59.519 --> 00:25:02.720 We work with our our Jewish brothers and sisters in the in the camping world. 00:25:02.799 --> 00:25:10.400 We work with the secular camping world, and and we want to connect these partners to make sure that camps aren't seen as islands out there all by themselves. 00:25:10.640 --> 00:25:12.559 And some of us, some of us kind of operate that way. 00:25:12.720 --> 00:25:17.119 Like camp is the end all be all, or it's the best thing in the world, and everybody should support camp and all these things. 00:25:17.200 --> 00:25:29.440 And it's like we're part of this larger educational milieu for for these young people and their families, and the retreats that we offer and the camps that we offer are part of something much larger. 00:25:29.599 --> 00:25:38.160 And our partners are peoples like the churches, peoples like the schools, people like coaches, um, and these other caring adults in young people's lives. 00:25:38.319 --> 00:25:47.759 And so, how can we more intentionally partner with them and come alongside them in in ways that that aren't just sort of a one-off camp experience, and then they they go home. 00:25:47.839 --> 00:25:52.720 Yeah, but it can be incorporated into the entire ecology of their formation. 00:25:53.519 --> 00:25:54.000 Yeah. 00:25:54.480 --> 00:26:01.519 So if you listeners, if if you're a faith-based

camp or not, I would definitely encourage you to go to check out Sacred Playgrounds, definitely listen to the podcast. 00:26:01.599 --> 00:26:05.599 There's some really great insights on there, and their newsletter is really good too. 00:26:05.920 --> 00:26:06.960 Thanks, Travis. 00:26:07.039 --> 00:26:07.279 Yeah. 00:26:07.519 --> 00:26:11.200 What if your technology could help you lead more intentionally? 00:26:11.359 --> 00:26:14.799 Think about what you're already trying to be intentional about at your camp. 00:26:15.039 --> 00:26:23.680 Reducing staff burnout, managing operational overhead, making sure every camper gets the activities you promised when their parents enroll them. 00:26:23.920 --> 00:26:28.559 Feeling confident that you can enroll more campers with the activities and the staff that you have. 00:26:28.880 --> 00:26:37.920 Camp Activities Scheduling Engine 8 handles more variables, solves much more complex scheduling challenges, makes the entire schedule easier to manage. 00:26:38.079 --> 00:26:45.039 With more data and cleaner insights along the way, you can see what's happening, understand why, and build better schedules faster. 00:26:45.279 --> 00:26:48.960 And when the weather changes, you can pivot without starting over. 00:26:49.200 --> 00:26:57.279 So instead of building and rebuilding schedules, your team can spend that time leading, developing staff, and focusing on the camper experience. 00:26:57.599 --> 00:27:02.480 Add camptivities to your tech stack and give yourself another tool for intentional leadership. 00:27:02.720 --> 00:27:03.680 Camptivities. 00:27:03.920 --> 00:27:06.880 Smarter scheduling, more insight, less work. 00:27:07.039 --> 00:27:09.519 Visit camptivities.com to get started. 00:27:09.839 --> 00:27:16.720 Is there is there something in the research that you've done that you think would surprise camp people? 00:27:17.200 --> 00:27:20.319 Or yeah, let's just stick to that. 00:27:20.720 --> 00:27:24.000 Yeah, there's a lot of things in the research that I think would surprise camp people. 00:27:24.319 --> 00:27:27.599 I think boy, where to even start on this one. 00:27:27.839 --> 00:27:30.559 We all think that our camp is the best. 00:27:30.799 --> 00:27:33.680 Uh and that we do it, we do it the right way. 00:27:34.880 --> 00:27:43.680 And some camps even call it, you know, fill in the blank camp's name the way, you know, this way, you know, our our sugar creek way or whatever it whatever it is. 00:27:44.319 --> 00:27:48.640 And it's a it's a way of being, it's a way of acting, it's a way of treating people, and they really believe in it. 00:27:48.720 --> 00:27:51.920 And and I really appreciate that when they've got that sort of mission and vision. 00:27:52.079 --> 00:27:53.279 Not all camps have that. 00:27:53.519 --> 00:27:56.480 Some some folks seem to think that camp is just magic. 00:27:56.720 --> 00:27:58.400 We we mentioned this before, right? 00:27:58.559 --> 00:28:02.160 And I and I I think coming back to this is important because it's not. 00:28:02.559 --> 00:28:04.240 It really needs to be intentional. 00:28:04.400 --> 00:28:13.759 And so what we've what we've found through the effective camp research is what we we we kind of boil it down to the five fundamentals of specifically Christian camp. 00:28:13.920 --> 00:28:20.799 That that camp needs to be unplugged from home, participatory, faith-centered, a safe space, relational. 00:28:21.119 --> 00:28:25.920 And when those things are experienced robustly, we see these impacts. 00:28:26.160 --> 00:28:32.799 But there's oftentimes breakdowns or deficiencies in this model, and that really impacts the camper experience. 00:28:32.880 --> 00:28:34.400 It impacts your camper retention. 00:28:34.559 --> 00:28:39.680 And so this is how we sort of evaluate program quality and experience quality. 00:28:39.839 --> 00:28:51.519 And some people think that they're doing it really the right way, and they're they're really set in the way that they've always done it, and they're not really imagining what does this mean for something like the participatory element of camp? 00:28:52.000 --> 00:28:54.480 How are campers involved in the decision making? 00:28:54.640 --> 00:28:56.720 How are they getting up front and taking the lead? 00:28:56.880 --> 00:28:57.359 Things like that. 00:28:57.519 --> 00:29:17.039 Like understanding the philosophy behind it and the why we do this becomes really important as we form our programs and tweak our programs as you know, as things change a little bit in the in the 21st century, and and we can't just keep doing things the same way and expecting different results. 00:29:17.519 --> 00:29:25.680 And so, how can we look at something like the philosophy of camp in general and say, what does this mean for our specific programs? 00:29:26.000 --> 00:29:42.880 And so I think that's that's been one of the surprises for a lot of people that have participated in the project because a lot of times what people are looking for when they when they hire us to do an evaluation is they want affirmation, they want their good numbers, and so and we always promise there's gonna be two, there's gonna be two sides of this, right? 00:29:43.039 --> 00:29:50.480 Yeah, you're gonna have some great numbers that you're gonna want to share in your newsletters and tell everybody, and there's there's gonna be some numbers in there that you're like, ooh, really? 00:29:51.599 --> 00:29:57.359 And they'll try to explain it away like, well, maybe only the people that had an axe to grind responded. 00:29:57.519 --> 00:30:04.079 You know, maybe this isn't really representative, or it rained that week, so we get a pass on that one. 00:30:04.480 --> 00:30:09.839 No, you don't get a pass when it rains or when something else happens or when a counselor gets sick. 00:30:10.000 --> 00:30:14.880 You don't get a pass because that's that that's the only camp experience that that camper had. 00:30:15.039 -->

00:30:16.720 And they might not just come back. 00:30:16.960 --> 00:30:18.559 That's that's the one experience. 00:30:18.720 --> 00:30:22.319 So you can't say, oh, because it rained, it's it's you know, that's what happened. 00:30:22.559 --> 00:30:23.680 Where's the creativity? 00:30:23.759 --> 00:30:24.799 Where's the pivoting? 00:30:24.960 --> 00:30:27.039 You know, this is something we pride ourselves in at camp. 00:30:27.119 --> 00:30:34.559 And if and if we're not able to do this and and and provide high quality experiences when there are adverse circumstances, then what are we doing? 00:30:34.640 --> 00:30:35.599 What are we promising? 00:30:35.839 --> 00:30:45.440 If we're not able to serve all of these kids effectively, then we really need to take a good look in the mirror and say, okay, how do we how do we change this? 00:30:45.599 --> 00:30:50.240 Yeah, how can we make sure that we we are serving people the the way that we want to? 00:30:50.480 --> 00:30:53.279 And and and this might be specific populations as well. 00:30:53.359 --> 00:31:02.640 And I've and I've and I've heard you and and and Chris talk about this sometimes when camps try to serve different populations, and they're not equipped to serve different populations sometimes. 00:31:02.720 --> 00:31:07.839 Yeah, so we're gonna serve special needs campers because we believe in our heart that it's really important to serve special needs campers. 00:31:07.920 --> 00:31:08.640 That's wonderful. 00:31:08.960 --> 00:31:16.160 Are you equipped to serve special needs campers and make sure that you have they they have a positive experience and their families do too? 00:31:16.240 --> 00:31:19.920 Yeah, because if you're not, just having a big heart isn't gonna do it, right? 00:31:20.079 --> 00:31:21.599 It's not magic, right? 00:31:22.079 --> 00:31:24.079 It really takes intentionality. 00:31:24.559 --> 00:31:25.200 Yeah. 00:31:25.440 --> 00:31:28.079 You and I should run a session called Camp is not magic. 00:31:28.400 --> 00:31:29.359 Camp is not magic. 00:31:29.440 --> 00:31:29.759 I like it. 00:31:29.839 --> 00:31:30.160 I like it. 00:31:30.240 --> 00:31:32.079 Yeah, that could be a whole podcast, right? 00:31:32.880 --> 00:31:33.599 For sure, kid. 00:31:33.680 --> 00:31:34.240 For sure, kid. 00:31:34.480 --> 00:31:36.480 Your fifth principle, Jake, is relational. 00:31:36.559 --> 00:31:39.839 And I wonder if that term's kind of churchy or faith-based term. 00:31:39.920 --> 00:31:41.279 Can you explain it a bit, please? 00:31:41.519 --> 00:31:41.839 Yeah. 00:31:42.079 --> 00:31:44.240 So, you know, we we talk about camp. 00:31:44.400 --> 00:31:49.839 One of the one of the really key elements of camp is that it's community living, right? 00:31:50.000 --> 00:31:55.039 And so this is something where we are in close proximity to each other, we're face to face, we're heart to heart. 00:31:55.200 --> 00:31:57.759 And with overnight camp, we're living in the same space. 00:31:57.920 --> 00:32:04.319 And so there's there's there's that piece of community living that becomes an essential element of the camp experience itself. 00:32:04.480 --> 00:32:10.880 And so when we talk about the relational aspect of camp, we mean building relationships peer-to-peer. 00:32:11.119 --> 00:32:24.559 And so campers themselves building relationships with one another and facilitating those positive relationships, and that includes things like conflict resolution, things like reconciliation and forgiveness. 00:32:24.799 --> 00:32:32.240 And then, of course, it also includes the near-peer-mentor relationship with the camp counselor or the camp leader, or whatever you call your camp guides. 00:32:32.559 --> 00:32:34.559 Because I know some people don't like the term counselor. 00:32:35.599 --> 00:32:38.480 The that relationship becomes really special as well. 00:32:38.640 --> 00:33:11.359 And so we see a couple dimensions of the relational aspect of camp, and those are two of them for sure is the the relationship to my my other peers and my relationship to the staff, to my counselor, and making sure those are strong and and and going beyond just like we're friends or we feel like family to this is how we develop social skills, this is how we respond when somebody gets on our nerves, when we're trying to do a group challenge activity and we're having trouble doing it, we're arguing. 00:33:11.599 --> 00:33:28.559 How do we work through that as a group and as a team and come out the other side so that we can say we feel stronger together, we feel closer to one another because of this, and it's not just because these are the people that I would choose to hang out with. 00:33:28.720 --> 00:33:33.599 And I think that's one of the keys about camp that our society desperately needs right now. 00:33:33.839 --> 00:33:42.960 We are in a moment in society where it's really easy to make a duality in everything. 00:33:43.279 --> 00:33:48.559 Duality in politics, uh, duality in morals, you know, good bad, you know, good evil. 00:33:48.799 --> 00:33:51.519 People that disagree with me, I'm just not even gonna talk to them. 00:33:51.680 --> 00:33:53.680 They're totally wrong because they're wrong on this issue. 00:33:53.839 --> 00:33:56.000 I could never vote that way, whatever it is, right? 00:33:56.240 --> 00:33:59.759 Because they're this, that means they're bad or they're evil. 00:33:59.920 --> 00:34:04.640 And what we learn at camp is nobody's all bad, nobody's all evil, nobody's all good. 00:34:05.279 --> 00:34:10.000 You know, from a faith-based perspective, we might say we're simultaneously a saint and a sinner. 00:34:10.159 --> 00:34:13.360 We we are we we we are forgiven. 00:34:13.599 --> 00:34:17.599 We are people who are flawed and yet we are loved. 00:34:17.840 --> 00:34:26.719 And so to encounter that at camp becomes a really important part of this relational piece of camp that I'm a flawed human being and yet I'm loved. 00:34:27.360 --> 00:34:33.599

This is a flawed human being, and yet I can have a relationship with this person, and not only that, but I can learn something from this person. 00:34:33.760 --> 00:34:36.719 I can put myself in their shoes a little bit, have some empathy. 00:34:36.880 --> 00:34:44.719 And those skills are skills that are learned at camp more so than almost any other place we go. 00:34:45.360 --> 00:34:53.280 Yeah, schools oftentimes do a good job at this, but there's also the division at schools or in sports or in music. 00:34:53.360 --> 00:34:56.639 Kind of you you get the the theater kids together and they do theater stuff together, right? 00:34:56.800 --> 00:34:58.880 The the sports kids together, they do sports stuff together. 00:34:59.039 --> 00:35:01.280 At camp, they're all in the same cabin. 00:35:01.519 --> 00:35:01.920 Yeah. 00:35:02.159 --> 00:35:03.440 What does this mean? 00:35:03.760 --> 00:35:05.039 How can we get along? 00:35:05.199 --> 00:35:06.719 What activities can we do together? 00:35:06.880 --> 00:35:08.079 Where can we find common ground? 00:35:08.159 --> 00:35:09.360 What can we learn from each other? 00:35:09.519 --> 00:35:13.679 And so that's what we're really talking about when we talk about the relational aspect of camp. 00:35:14.400 --> 00:35:15.039 Right. 00:35:15.760 --> 00:35:16.559 Amazing. 00:35:17.039 --> 00:35:24.079 Sacredplaygrants.com to find out more about Jake and his team and the work they do and their podcast. 00:35:24.880 --> 00:35:31.679 Okay, we're on to our next section, Jake, which is realizations, things you've realized over time. 00:35:32.159 --> 00:35:33.119 Okay, okay. 00:35:33.679 --> 00:35:35.679 Question number three. 00:35:36.559 --> 00:35:37.119 Hmm. 00:35:37.440 --> 00:35:37.760 Oh. 00:35:38.239 --> 00:35:39.119 I like my questions. 00:35:39.360 --> 00:35:40.880 I love that you laugh at so many questions. 00:35:41.039 --> 00:35:43.280 I don't always see them, and sometimes like, oh, that's a good one. 00:35:43.360 --> 00:35:44.800 I think Matt wrote that, but this is really good. 00:35:45.039 --> 00:35:46.000 Or I I wrote that question. 00:35:46.079 --> 00:35:46.719 I think it's a good one. 00:35:46.880 --> 00:35:47.199 All right. 00:35:47.360 --> 00:35:48.320 Question number three. 00:35:48.559 --> 00:35:53.199 What is the most honest feedback you've ever received, and how did you take it? 00:35:53.840 --> 00:35:54.400 Ooh. 00:35:54.960 --> 00:36:00.639 What is the most honest feedback I've ever received, and how did I take it? 00:36:01.039 --> 00:36:02.960 Um boy, that's a hard one. 00:36:03.039 --> 00:36:04.559 I mean, there's oh boy. 00:36:04.800 --> 00:36:09.199 In what hmm, in in in which aspect of life I would say. 00:36:09.440 --> 00:36:12.320 I've gotten some I've gotten some hard feedback before. 00:36:12.480 --> 00:36:19.920 And I think whenever I've gotten it, it's been from it's been from a mentor, or it's been from somebody who knows me really well. 00:36:20.960 --> 00:36:23.360 Because otherwise it feels like critique, I think. 00:36:23.519 --> 00:36:31.599 So you send feedback, sometimes it feels like somebody's just critiquing and they don't really know the context or something like that. 00:36:31.920 --> 00:36:39.920 But I've gotten some I've gotten some hard feedback about my presentation style sometimes and my way of being with people. 00:36:40.320 --> 00:36:52.400 Um and so I remember some specific ones when I was at camp and I'm an extrovert, I'm a loud person, I tend to be overbearing. 00:36:52.719 --> 00:36:55.519 Um and I try to joke around. 00:36:55.679 --> 00:37:05.199 I sort of have that that personality that I've gotten from you know, from camp, from deer camp, from hanging out with other people, from from fishing trips, things like that, or there's banter. 00:37:05.679 --> 00:37:06.239 Yes. 00:37:06.719 --> 00:37:14.159 And and sometimes that loud personality coupled with the the banter can really hurt. 00:37:14.400 --> 00:37:17.039 And it can hurt people's feelings, and it can be overbearing. 00:37:17.360 --> 00:37:19.760 And so I've gotten that feedback more than once. 00:37:19.920 --> 00:37:20.079 Yeah. 00:37:20.320 --> 00:37:28.239 But it's been it's been very hard-hitting sometimes when I've realized that I've really hurt somebody's feelings. 00:37:28.559 --> 00:37:40.639 And so I tend to take that really hard when I I realize that I've really hurt somebody emotionally. 00:37:40.960 --> 00:37:43.599 And so I take that emotionally a lot of times. 00:37:44.000 --> 00:37:45.199 And so how did I respond? 00:37:45.440 --> 00:37:46.559 I think I cried. 00:37:47.679 --> 00:37:54.400 And I think I ugly cried in front of that person as I tried to apologize. 00:37:55.599 --> 00:38:00.000 And knowing that that's not how I I don't know how helpful that is. 00:38:02.480 --> 00:38:09.360 And but then I think going beyond that, I'd say I I try to do better. 00:38:10.320 --> 00:38:16.800 I try to do better, and I try to catch myself more frequently now than I I would have, say, when I was in my twenties. 00:38:19.199 --> 00:38:20.400 Thank you for sharing that take. 00:38:20.480 --> 00:38:21.119 I appreciate it. 00:38:21.679 --> 00:38:22.639 You're welcome. 00:38:23.039 --> 00:38:24.159 Number one. 00:38:24.800 --> 00:38:25.679 Number one. 00:38:26.000 --> 00:38:32.559 How do you personally lead someone who doesn't want to be led, but is kind of your responsibility to lead them? 00:38:32.960 --> 00:38:34.639 Yeah, that's a great question. 00:38:34.880 --> 00:38:42.239 So when we are working to lead somebody who doesn't want to be led, I want to get to know that person. 00:38:42.400 --> 00:38:49.519 And I want to get to know their personality and what some of the triggers might be, and what some of the motivations might be. 00:38:49.599 --> 00:38:57.760 And so I was just with a group last night, with uh it was a group of middle schoolers, and I was leading them through some trust building challenge, challenge activities.

00:38:57.840 --> 00:39:03.440 And there was one kid in particular who was just like arms folded, didn't want to participate. 00:39:03.519 --> 00:39:06.400 And I made sure that they knew it was challenge by choice, right? 00:39:06.559 --> 00:39:12.960 Yeah, and so to do some encouragement, but also this is my this is my Ted Lasso coming out, right? 00:39:13.119 --> 00:39:14.719 Be curious, not judgmental. 00:39:14.960 --> 00:39:15.599 Be curious. 00:39:15.760 --> 00:39:18.719 I think he was quoting Walt M Walt Whitman when he was saying that line. 00:39:18.960 --> 00:39:25.760 But yeah, I want to know what's going on with this kid and what's going on in their life, but also what's going on in this moment. 00:39:25.920 --> 00:39:26.960 Are they having a hard day? 00:39:27.199 --> 00:39:27.760 Things like that. 00:39:27.920 --> 00:39:30.639 And so giving them space, I think, is really important. 00:39:30.960 --> 00:39:35.760 When space can be given, sometimes you can't give them space to go run in the road, right? 00:39:36.000 --> 00:39:43.679 Or we're on a we're on a hike, we can't give them space to just go run off over the hills by themselves if it's if it's going to be dangerous or that you're gonna get lost. 00:39:43.760 --> 00:39:51.679 And so, but making sure that we're we're not putting ourselves necessarily in in that position and we we we gauge the group and the abilities of the group. 00:39:51.760 --> 00:40:00.480 So whenever I'm doing like a challenge course, like I was doing last night, I'm I'm starting with simpler activities to gauge the group and how they're interacting with one another. 00:40:00.639 --> 00:40:10.400 And if I have a standoffish kid or a kid that that might lash out in in certain activities, I'm probably not going on to trust falls, right? 00:40:10.639 --> 00:40:11.920 You know, yes, yes, it's yes. 00:40:12.079 --> 00:40:22.719 So so so you're you're gauging the group and then you're not putting them in a situation that could be dangerous or could facilitate one of these really challenging circumstances. 00:40:22.880 --> 00:40:30.719 And so, so gauge the group, get to know that person, and then do those one-on-ones and find out, hey, what's going on with this with this young person? 00:40:30.800 --> 00:40:32.000 Is it me as a leader? 00:40:32.159 --> 00:40:33.039 Is it my style? 00:40:33.280 --> 00:40:34.960 Is it something that's going on in their lives? 00:40:35.119 --> 00:40:38.320 And then responding with love and respect, I think is really important. 00:40:38.480 --> 00:40:39.440 That's a quick answer. 00:40:39.679 --> 00:40:48.159 I can go so much more into depth on specifics, but I think it really is important that it needs to be contextualized, it needs to be specific to this individual. 00:40:48.320 --> 00:40:52.960 When it's somebody that doesn't want to be led, it's not just they're not the problem. 00:40:53.199 --> 00:40:55.760 Let me let me start with that and finish with that. 00:40:56.000 --> 00:40:57.199 They're not the problem. 00:40:57.440 --> 00:40:59.679 And I I hear this too often at camp. 00:40:59.840 --> 00:41:01.440 I've got a problem camper. 00:41:01.760 --> 00:41:02.320 Problem camper. 00:41:02.719 --> 00:41:03.760 There are no problem campers. 00:41:03.840 --> 00:41:04.639 Say it with me, people. 00:41:04.719 --> 00:41:19.360 There are no problem campers, there are only opportunities to share love, to share respect, and to find out more about these amazing people that you get to work with, and so reframing that is really important as we think about how to lead. 00:41:20.000 --> 00:41:20.639 Yeah. 00:41:20.960 --> 00:41:21.599 Yes. 00:41:22.239 --> 00:41:22.960 Thank you. 00:41:23.119 --> 00:41:27.920 I'm gonna move this on to reliances, which is our version of the big beliefs that you have. 00:41:28.000 --> 00:41:31.440 What do you rely on in the way you think about things? 00:41:31.679 --> 00:41:36.639 Okay, and we're going to start with question number three. 00:41:37.360 --> 00:41:37.679 Okay. 00:41:38.400 --> 00:41:41.280 Have you made peace with your own mortality? 00:41:41.599 --> 00:41:42.239 Yes. 00:41:42.880 --> 00:41:43.199 Yeah. 00:41:43.440 --> 00:41:44.400 Do you want me to say more? 00:41:44.559 --> 00:41:46.400 I mean I mean, I I do. 00:41:46.480 --> 00:41:49.440 I mean, I know you, so I know where this is going, but I would like to say a little bit more. 00:41:49.920 --> 00:41:50.880 I know where this is going. 00:41:51.039 --> 00:41:52.639 He's gonna talk about faith again. 00:41:52.800 --> 00:41:55.760 Yeah, I'm gonna talk about faith again because that is who you are. 00:41:55.920 --> 00:41:58.079 That is one of my core beliefs, right? 00:41:58.159 --> 00:42:03.679 Yeah, and so we live and we die, and that is part of what makes life so special. 00:42:03.840 --> 00:42:05.760 Have I come to terms with my own mortality? 00:42:05.840 --> 00:42:13.039 Yes, and I have at various times, and so I would say at some points I'm very comfortable with it. 00:42:13.119 --> 00:42:17.440 And like this is something that's a reality, and I'm gonna enjoy life as precious as it is. 00:42:17.599 --> 00:42:23.519 But there are some times that it really scares the heck out of me, and so that doesn't mean I'm not at peace with it's quote unquote. 00:42:23.599 --> 00:42:25.199 But I have better days than others. 00:42:25.360 --> 00:42:26.079 How does that sound? 00:42:26.480 --> 00:42:27.280 Yeah, yeah. 00:42:27.360 --> 00:42:36.719 So, with with the promises of faith and with the communities that I've been able to be a part of, and with the amazing life experiences that I'm able to have, the answer to the question is yes. 00:42:37.039 --> 00:42:38.000 Wonderful, thank you. 00:42:38.320 --> 00:42:40.000 Lucky number 19. 00:42:40.400 --> 00:42:40.719 Okay. 00:42:41.440 --> 00:42:49.360 What does a putting others first kind of leadership require of you personally, Jake, when you're at the end, when you're exhausted? 00:42:49.679

--> 00:42:50.000 Yeah. 00:42:50.559 --> 00:42:52.400 What is what do you have to do to get there? 00:42:52.719 --> 00:42:56.559 When I'm at the end, when I'm exhausted, that that's a that's that changes the question, right? 00:42:56.719 --> 00:43:03.039 So I think whether I'm exhausted or not, it takes self-reflection and time. 00:43:03.360 --> 00:43:12.480 And so anytime we go into a leadership situation, pausing, reflecting, and checking ourselves and checking our spirit becomes really important. 00:43:13.119 --> 00:43:15.119 What am I coming into this with? 00:43:15.920 --> 00:43:18.480 And how much baggage am I bringing? 00:43:18.559 --> 00:43:25.119 And and how can I make sure that I'm not putting this onto the group that I'm about to facilitate? 00:43:25.519 --> 00:43:25.760 Yeah. 00:43:26.079 --> 00:43:30.320 Because any of us can lash out when when we don't mean to, right? 00:43:30.719 --> 00:43:34.000 Especially when we're exhausted, when we're at the end of our end of our ropes. 00:43:34.159 --> 00:43:39.440 And so always doing the self-reflection beforehand, and this is this is a spiritual discipline for me. 00:43:39.760 --> 00:43:40.079 Okay. 00:43:40.719 --> 00:43:44.239 So really taking the time to center yourself becomes important. 00:43:44.400 --> 00:43:45.599 Of course, I use prayer. 00:43:45.840 --> 00:43:51.760 Other people can use other mindfulness techniques to really say, okay, what am I bringing into this space? 00:43:52.639 --> 00:43:55.119 What is expected of me in this space? 00:43:55.360 --> 00:43:57.360 And what am I able to give and to bring? 00:43:58.000 --> 00:43:59.760 And so being really reasonable with those expectations. 00:44:00.400 --> 00:44:04.079 Of yourself can help prep you as you go into a space of leadership. 00:44:04.320 --> 00:44:10.159 The second thing to equip yourself is a partner, an accountability partner. 00:44:10.320 --> 00:44:13.039 And so don't go in alone whenever possible. 00:44:13.199 --> 00:44:20.000 And don't so for for camp directors, don't leave your staff hanging. 00:44:20.400 --> 00:44:20.639 Right. 00:44:20.800 --> 00:44:23.519 You know, don't put them in, don't put them into these situations. 00:44:23.760 --> 00:44:24.000 Yeah. 00:44:24.320 --> 00:44:26.480 Make sure that they have the support that they need. 00:44:26.719 --> 00:44:30.239 Because we all have these moments when we get short, right? 00:44:30.480 --> 00:44:32.800 And it's it's tough to be our best selves. 00:44:33.280 --> 00:44:36.480 Having an accountability partner there can really, really help. 00:44:36.639 --> 00:44:39.360 And it can help make sure that we have that reliance piece. 00:44:39.599 --> 00:44:41.760 And so those two things. 00:44:42.079 --> 00:44:48.320 Internally, check and mindfulness, prayer, connect with that higher power really, really helps. 00:44:48.480 --> 00:44:52.320 And then making sure that you have an accountability partner there with you. 00:44:53.119 --> 00:44:53.760 Yeah. 00:44:54.000 --> 00:44:54.400 Yep. 00:44:54.559 --> 00:45:02.079 That you can either nod to and say, I need you to take this one, or that they can just touch you on the arm and you'd be like, right, you it's your you need to have the turn now. 00:45:02.320 --> 00:45:03.760 This needs to not be me right now. 00:45:04.079 --> 00:45:04.320 Yep. 00:45:04.480 --> 00:45:04.800 Yeah. 00:45:05.280 --> 00:45:05.760 Exactly right. 00:45:06.000 --> 00:45:06.719 So we're smart. 00:45:07.039 --> 00:45:08.800 Last last roll. 00:45:09.039 --> 00:45:10.159 Last roll. 00:45:10.639 --> 00:45:11.519 Last roll. 00:45:11.760 --> 00:45:12.639 Lucky number. 00:45:12.719 --> 00:45:13.440 Come on. 00:45:13.920 --> 00:45:15.119 Lucky number eight. 00:45:15.360 --> 00:45:15.760 Ooh. 00:45:16.000 --> 00:45:16.719 Number eight. 00:45:16.880 --> 00:45:17.360 All right. 00:45:17.599 --> 00:45:18.719 Number eight. 00:45:19.440 --> 00:45:20.480 Number eight. 00:45:20.960 --> 00:45:24.880 What does I'm trying to think just working on the wording of this? 00:45:25.039 --> 00:45:27.199 What does intentional leadership mean to you? 00:45:27.360 --> 00:45:28.480 Like not the definition. 00:45:28.559 --> 00:45:37.599 We've covered that, but what does the the price of intentional leadership mean to you or on you or that others should be prepared for? 00:45:37.920 --> 00:45:38.559 Yeah. 00:45:38.880 --> 00:45:42.239 I'm gonna answer this in a similar way to answer to the way I answered the last one. 00:45:42.400 --> 00:46:04.320 Intentional leadership means self-reflection every time it means that you're going to be prepared to pivot, and you are going to be ready to put yourself after the people that you are in front of. 00:46:04.639 --> 00:46:07.920 And so there's a self-givingness, I think, to this. 00:46:08.159 --> 00:46:15.599 And so I would connect it in some ways to servant leadership, where I'm here to serve. 00:46:16.400 --> 00:46:19.920 I'm not here to get the spotlight. 00:46:20.159 --> 00:46:22.639 I'm not here to get the attention. 00:46:22.880 --> 00:46:28.000 Um, that's not the goal of intentional leadership as I'm understanding it. 00:46:28.239 --> 00:46:31.039 And this is where I would define it as servant leadership. 00:46:31.280 --> 00:46:31.679 Sure. 00:46:31.920 --> 00:46:36.000 It's not leadership for leadership's sake, it's not leadership for my sake. 00:46:36.239 --> 00:46:41.119 It's for the sake of the people who are here and the whole group, which includes me. 00:46:41.280 --> 00:46:41.599 Yep. 00:46:41.760 --> 00:46:47.119 But but primarily it's a it's a giving of myself for for the others that are that are here. 00:46:47.280 --> 00:47:13.519 And so really checking again with with yourself and and doing some some some self-reflection and some centeredness and being willing to be humble, being willing to be wrong, being willing to say, I don't know, and then being, of course, willing to turn it around because this is ultimately what we're trying to do with camp leadership

in particular, is we're trying to rearrange the classroom, right? 00:47:13.599 --> 00:47:17.119 We're trying to flip things because I don't want to be the one up front. 00:47:17.280 --> 00:47:21.519 If I'm up front, it's to facilitate the next person to be up front. 00:47:21.679 --> 00:47:22.000 Yeah. 00:47:22.559 --> 00:47:28.480 You know, it's the it's the improv sketch where it's always leading into the next person. 00:47:28.719 --> 00:47:29.760 Who's next? 00:47:30.320 --> 00:47:31.360 Who's gonna step up? 00:47:31.599 --> 00:47:46.079 And so if you're up front, it's to model it for somebody else, it's to empower the next person, and that's how I really see the the intention of leadership is it's not self-glorification, it's the opposite of that, right? 00:47:46.800 --> 00:47:48.639 It's to empower the next person. 00:47:48.880 --> 00:47:49.519 Yes. 00:47:50.639 --> 00:47:52.960 Jake, thank you so much for this. 00:47:53.119 --> 00:47:54.000 I'm really grateful. 00:47:54.239 --> 00:47:56.239 A great conversation as usual. 00:47:56.400 --> 00:48:04.639 I'm excited to have many great conversations with Jake, but I appreciate you sharing of yourself with the intentionally intentional leaders audience. 00:48:05.039 --> 00:48:05.920 Thank you, Travis. 00:48:06.000 --> 00:48:07.039 It's been it's been fun. 00:48:07.199 --> 00:48:10.880 It's been fun to have this conversation and I hope it's helpful for some people. 00:48:10.960 --> 00:48:13.039 It was for me to do some self-reflection today. 00:48:13.119 --> 00:48:14.079 So thank you for that. 00:48:14.159 --> 00:48:15.440 It's been a gift for me. 00:48:15.760 --> 00:48:16.960 That that's wonderful. 00:48:17.119 --> 00:48:17.840 That's wonderful. 00:48:18.079 --> 00:48:19.760 Thanks for thanks for joining us. 00:48:19.920 --> 00:48:24.559 So this is a wrap on this episode of Intentionally Intentional Leaders from GoCamp Pro. 00:48:24.960 --> 00:48:32.079 If you would like to explore how you can lead with more clarity and capacity, you can take that camp resilience checkup that I talked about at the beginning. 00:48:32.320 --> 00:48:32.880 It's free. 00:48:32.960 --> 00:48:35.519 It's at gocamp.pro slash checkup. 00:48:35.679 --> 00:48:47.119 And if you're looking for any great camp podcast, normally I would pump in a uh GoCamp Pro podcast at this point, but listen to Sacred Playgrounds, you will not regret it. 00:48:47.519 --> 00:48:50.800 Before we go, Jake, I have one final question that's not a role. 00:48:51.039 --> 00:48:58.639 Who is an intentionally camp leader that you admire or someone that you think that we should invite to have this conversation next? 00:48:59.360 --> 00:49:00.000 Yeah. 00:49:00.559 --> 00:49:04.400 I think you should invite. 00:49:05.039 --> 00:49:07.519 Boy, oh see, you put me on the spot now. 00:49:07.760 --> 00:49:11.760 Now I gotta now I gotta think of somebody who I I think you should invite. 00:49:12.000 --> 00:49:14.239 Boy, I wish you had give me this. 00:49:14.320 --> 00:49:16.400 I I've got names in my head. 00:49:16.719 --> 00:49:25.840 As we think about intentionally, intentional leaders, I think you should invite Jess Elfring Roberts. 00:49:26.159 --> 00:49:32.719 Uh Jess is the head of the Episcopal Camp and Conference Centers Association. 00:49:32.960 --> 00:49:39.199 And so I think she would have some very good insights about leadership for this podcast. 00:49:40.239 --> 00:49:41.280 Yes, that's great. 00:49:41.360 --> 00:49:42.480 Jess is a great pick. 00:49:42.559 --> 00:49:43.039 Thank you. 00:49:43.199 --> 00:49:44.239 Thanks for being here, Jake. 00:49:44.320 --> 00:49:45.039 I really appreciate it. 00:49:45.119 --> 00:49:47.119 And thanks to all of you for listening. 00:49:47.360 --> 00:49:51.360 Hope you stay resilient in your camp work and stay intentional. 00:49:51.840 --> 00:49:53.599 This is Go Camp Pro. 00:49:54.000 --> 00:49:56.079 Camp Leadership Unfiltered.