התמלול המלא של Richard Grellman: What Alzheimers Taught a Top Business Leader About Prayer

be developed, my emotional intelligence and able to read a room, figure out whether or not the person I was talking to was a fraud or not pretty quickly. And and then when you're employing and unemploying staff, I learned to turn this off and activate that. Yeah. 'Cause your first reaction when you meet someone is usually where you end up. And you can do all the intellectual analysis and cross check references and all of that. But if your gut says to you, nah and sometimes I ignored my gut 'cause everything else on paper looked good. Yeah. And usually regretted it within six months. Well. Karl Faase (07:40.982) So you y I mean you you moved out of auditing after eighteen months. So you're still only like nineteen twenty. You move into this department. In your twenties, what was it like dealing with people that whose business was in distress? You're a twenty year old, you know, both of us might say kid, and you're dealing with people that have built their own businesses that are now in in trouble. What is that like? Richard Grellman (08:03.768) Well look, as an employee, you're essentially a bag carrier for the senior person on the team. when I became a partner, of course, I had other people carrying bags. Yeah. And that was much more the dynamic between myself and the executive if or the the owner of the business was very much me and them. but, you know, as I say, I was just just about to turn thirty when I became a partner. And I you don't know anything. I I I just did not know anything about the big world. Yeah. So I learnt on the job. I had terrific senior partners who I would came to regard as professional mentors. And the partnership back in those days was small enough for every partner to know each other. strengths and weaknesses. and you knew most of the stuff. I think when I became a partner we had twenty partners. Now KPMG has seven hundred. well. Yeah. So it's become much more of a corporate dynamic. Karl Faase (09:11.714) Yes. I'm gonna come back to KPMG. Let me just go back in the story a bit or ask you what about faith? 'Cause part of your story and part of what we'll talk about is Christian faith. When did Christian faith become something that was s that you considered seriously? Richard Grellman (09:28.288) Well, I went we moved out from Melbourne with my my family, when I was about thirteen. my parents who were sympathetic but not active church goers we'd moved into Roseville in Sydney and mother said you should join the youth fellowship and while you're there you should join Sebs. Now, very few people would know what Sebs is anymore, but The Church of England Boy Society was like a sort of a scout movement. Yeah. And I did both of those things because I was a beating y young man. I didn't know anyone in Sydney. I have friends who are still very close to me who I met in fellowship. And but as a fourteen year old, you know, you're introduced to the notion of salvation by faith through grace. and you kinda get it but It wasn't for me until Billy Graham came, I think it was sixty-eight, sixty-nine. Mm-hmm. And I got caught up in the whole event and went forward. And for that crusade they'd they'd folded people who'd made a commitment on the night into small groups. And I was folded into a group which was led by who became Bishop Don Cameron, a very godly man, and as an emerging adult It all sort of started clicking into place. Karl Faase (10:57.462) Well, how old were you then? Nine. Nineteen. Do you remember g why you went forward? It was just that Richard Grellman (11:03.022) think it was just the emotional yep. The music and seemed like a good idea at the time. I don't like Karl Faase (11:10.126) But obviously I it was pretty clear that that that was important to you. And then just spending time with the the small group that formed faith for you. Richard Grellman (11:18.358) It really did and it got me on to regular Bible reading and prayer through scripture union notes. I had a couple of incidents in my earlier teens when I'd prayed in a sticky situation and come through. and one in particular I was in a car crash as a passenger, probably fifteen, and I was thrown out of the car. wow. We're down south on dirt and I was must have been unconscious for a short period. I woke up and I could see the tire tracks on each side of where I was had been lying. but I clearly remember right to this day when I was going through the air praying that the Lord would get me through this one. he did. I got home that night and opened up my Bible and my Scripture Union Daily Reading, and I can't remember the passage, but there was there's always a little prayer at it. The prayer that night was help me not not to forget Lord God Almighty, the prayer I p prayed and the vows I made on the night of my peril. god. And I thought, I think I'm done. I can't get out of this one. Isn't that the the very night I got home, so Karl Faase (12:38.486) It's fifteen year old. Yeah. That that really lingers. And yet and yet you s there was still more, how do I say this, work to do as it were, in your own faith development. you know, in that decision at at nineteen and and obviously that was a really important choice for you as a nineteen year old. And then how d how did you see that influenced how you functioned within the corporate world? Richard Grellman (13:03.787) look it was fairly profound. I mean in the accounting profession, you there's a there's a a vein of ethical behaviour that really should permeate everything you do. The newspapers would suggest that that might be broken at the moment, but that's a whole different story. Yeah. I was dealing with people who were very ethical, honest. We always paid our tax 'cause we are registered tax agents. And I just tried to be as Christlike as I could be. And as a partner, you know, I'd I'd gone into the partnership thinking all the partners are elusive and unapproachable. I'm gonna be different. But the day I became a partner, doesn't matter what you want

in terms of staying close to the troops, they see you as someone that they can't be close to. but I tried to be approachable, I always had my door open. and I didn't ever make a secret of the fact that I was a Christian. I mean you don't talk about it every day, but when they offered me the partnership, I actually sat down with the managing partner and said, I just need you to know that I'm a Christian and therefore I might be a bit different from some of the other partners. Cause you know, you're pretty naive pretty nice. probably took myself a bit seriously. he was a lovely guy but not a Christian and I I never felt any deep tension between being a Christian and being a businessman. I just didn't want to go into the partnership without the partners knowing that that was me. Yeah. I don't think my conversation with the senior partner had a deep effect on him. He's playing a harp now. but I just felt that it was the right thing to do. Yeah. Karl Faase (15:05.644) Ha tell about how as a Christian you dealt with the whole business thing. Because there there is a there is a way of saying, you know, that well, there's a strand of Christianity that would see business almost as the bad guy, or that that that greed and money is something that we should avoid. Now clearly there's a difference between greed and money. But i when you're in that world and it's like twenty-four seven for you, how how are you processing that? Richard Grellman (15:34.382) Well, for me, the money came from the enterprise of the partnership and as a Christian that gave me the freedom to support causes and it gave me and my wife, Sir Ellen, the freedom for her not to work. she brought the kids up, ran the house, did a stack of voluntary work. so that freed her up for those ministries. So y the Yeah, I mean I I'm not gonna die rich because if I accumulate any assets they s tend to w go somewhere else. but I I found it an enabler. It enabled me to to live my Christian life without having to worry about money. And back in those days it wasn't so much you ate what you killed, in other words how much you bring into the partnership you took out of it. That was a whole different process the way partners were remunerated and so there was no particular benefit in killing more than I could eat. so I just when the assignments came along I used to run a pretty big team and we did the work and the firm got paid and most of the money that I generated went to other partners, frankly. Yeah. Karl Faase (17:01.234) R Richard, I I actually w watched a couple of different interviews with you and there was one that where you talked about like trying to sort out a pretty big problem in a particular firm and believing that you had the answer and it didn't work out so well and that it taught you some lessons about how you should function. Do you remember that what that particular situation? Richard Grellman (17:21.964) I d remember it very vividly and it was probably my most important lesson. I'd been appointed at thirty nine years of age to the the Empire of LJ Hooker Ltd. mm by a consortium of seventy two banks that were owed in those days the unimaginable amount of two point one billion. doesn't sound that much today, but it was a lot back then. Karl Faase (17:48.558) Still sounds a lot to me, but yes. Go on. Richard Grellman (17:51.89) and I thought, well, you know, this is a huge professional opportunity. I'm gonna give this a really red hot go. And I just threw myself into it twenty-four-seven virtually. and after about three months, the consortium of banks, which had a committee, in essence frog marched me off the assignment and gave it to one of my partners. it was a deeply disturbing professional milestone for me. And I thought that, you know, these banks who used to feed us a lot of work would probably not give me another look in. And I had three months of reflection and slightly despondent feelings and it came to me that they were probably right. Because I hadn't been delegating enough And I so I thought to myself, look, if the phone ever rings again, I think I've learnt the lesson. Karl Faase (18:56.706) Did you think that was the end of your career? I mean, thirty nine's a very pivotal age in these sorts of career paths, I would assume. so yeah, that must have that would have been devastating. Richard Grellman (19:08.118) It was Devo and I because we used to get so much work from the banks and virtually every bank in the universe was in the lending syndicate, I thought, well, you know, my name's off the list. But three months later a very very big job came in, came to me, from the insurance commission. It was an insurance company that had gone broke, and lost its way badly. And I thought, well I've learned my lesson. I'm gonna delegate this thing completely and decided there were only three things that I was gonna do. Manage the life insurers. All the big life insurers were actually underwriting the loss of this company. So I thought I'd better stay close to the chief executives, because they were watching this very closely. So I managed those relationships. I thought I'd manage the media, which of course was folly because you can't manage them. And the third thing I did was hold my own people accountable. I'd set them off to do all the hard work and We got an outstanding result, and got all the money back. And in fact we had more money than we needed to give all of the pol policy holders their money back. And I'd also determined that I would never talk to a policy holder. There were hundreds of thousands of them. And I heard my assistant answer a phone, clearly a policy holder, and it was a Mr. Keating. And so I stopped walking as I walked past her 'cause I knew Paul Keating was Hm was an investor in this company and I said, you better pop him through and picked up the phone, it was Paul Keating from Castle Hill. I hung up. But because I delegated so so aggressively to very competent young people, we got a great result. And we

had a couple of big court cases which we were successful in, one of which was to the High Court. Richard Grellman (21:20.838) And and I look this could be a distraction, but I one of the court cases settled for a hundred and twenty million. And I was appointed as what what's called a judicial manager, which is means you're the c you become the company, and Bernie Fraser was the governor of the reserve bank and he rang me the night before the settlement and he said, Look, I hope you don't mind me asking you, but you're gonna get given a bundle of checks totaling a hundred and twenty million in your name. are you okay with that? You're not gonna skip the country or anything, are you? I said, well I hadn't thought about it but Karl Faase (22:01.152) Now that you mention it. Richard Grellman (22:04.03) so w the next day settlement came and my solicitor looked around this big room full of bankers and solicitors and all the documents had been signed ready to be exchanged and checks handed over and she said, Is everybody happy? before we settle? Well no one in that room was happy. so we settled and got the money and I didn't skip overseas and Karl Faase (22:25.186) Yeah. Richard Grellman (22:32.554) In my study at home I have a photocopy of the check in my name for a hundred and twenty million dollars. Wow. That's momentarily I was wealthy. Karl Faase (22:41.3) Well that's remarkable. Richard, you y when you finished at KPMG, as you said, when you were fifty, what what position did you hold then? Richard Grellman (22:50.456) When I finished at KPMG I was pretty senior and I was on the national board, the national management committee. I was chairing the partner remuneration and nomination committee, which is the gateway for partners coming and going and how much we all get paid every year. And there were we're coming up for national elections. By then we'd become a national partnership. And the position of national chairman and national chief executive, or managing partner, were up for grabs and it was a vote, the partnership. And these are jobs that I genuinely did not want. they were the next logical step for me if I had of stayed there, if I had of had the support of partners. So when I was about forty nine and this process was starting, I started to mention to the f the partners that I'm gonna bail when I turn fifty. And a lot of not a lot, but a number of partners came up and said, Very canny, pretending that you're bailing. You've got my vote. I said, I don't want your vote, I'm I'm out of here. I was very happy there, but I just thought that I'd done the best I could. Yeah. And so the very day I turned fifty, I skulked out of the building. No farewell party, thanks anyway. And that was on a Friday evening and on Monday morning I walked into the AMP boardroom as a non executive director. Gosh. Karl Faase (24:21.448) Yeah th that that was a an impressive role. Although it did have its challenges, did it? Richard Grellman (24:28.346) look at the time AMP was one of the the great companies. It was a a wonderful company to be involved with. I was on the board for twelve years, even though there was a nine year limit because I don't know, they couldn't find someone to replace me. And around about the time when I did step down, you know, the the varnish started coming off AMP and it's it's not the gre the great enterprise there was these days. Karl Faase (24:54.55) No, there's there's been there's been a pretty sour history over the last number of years. What did you learn as you look back over that from seventeen to fifty in in KPMG? What what were your key outcomes, takeaways from that? Richard Grellman (25:09.046) We've probably covered it. I think firstly a heightening awareness that emotional intelligence is is one of the most important assets that you can take with you in any any dealing. And secondly the the profoundly important art of delegation. And the temptation is when you've got a lot on your plate to think, I can whip this off and I can do it before I go to bed it's the wrong attitude because there are people there that can do it probably better than you. and learning to pass the ball and just monitor how they were going was a a skill that has stayed with me and is Karl Faase (25:49.356) Held me in good step. Did you enjoy all those years? Did you like it? Do you look back on that period and go, that was a great period of my life from a a vocational point of view? Richard Grellman (25:56.974) I do. I think it was a terrific firm. I've got a number of ex partners who are who are still friends. and I've just felt very lucky that I turned left instead of right. I'd joined the nine partner practice and not the two partner practice. Which incidentally still exists with two partners. With two partners. Karl Faase (26:17.07) Is that right? Wow, and KPMG have now got seven hundred. Yep. That's r that's remarkable. Tell me go backwards in your story and where'd you meet Swellin? Richard Grellman (26:24.033) In Australia. Richard Grellman (26:29.506) Well, I the encouraged with the encouragement of my parents, we both were going to St Andrew's Rose Four Fellowship. Ended up in sort of leadership roles, junior fellowship, senior fellowship, upper seniors. It was a bigger deal those days than it probably is today. And we were exercising our respective ministries in in the fellowship and I thought, she's a nice looking girl don't know what she felt when she looked at me, but we just started going out and it it was very easy and logical. I didn't court her as such. We just sort of fell together. Did you we got married when I was twenty three, she was twenty two. Karl Faase (27:11.286) Well, isn't it lovely? Karl Faase (27:16.29) You you were obviously expressing leadership within the church and the f the you know, the the groups within the church, the ministries within the church. Did going into leading churches or ministry or ministry roles ever pass your mind? Is that ever something you

thought about? Richard Grellman (27:29.774) No, not really, because my old man had said to me excuse me, he'd been on the board of what became Northcott, where Phil with Phil Cave was chairman of and he enjoyed that and he said, Son, look, it doesn't matter what you do, but do some community service 'cause you'll be the beneficiary. And a couple of older gentlemen at my church were on the board of Sydney City Mission. And they asked whether I'd like to meet the chairman and consider joining that board. which I did and did. And ultimately that after a number of acquisitions and mergers emerged as Mission Australia. And after fifteen years on the board, when I frankly should have been stepping off the board, I was I I became chairman and did that role for ten years. and it was pretty clear to me that I can make more a more valuable contribution governing from the boardroom than helping out with the the boys and girls at the soup kitchen. Karl Faase (28:39.534) Okay, okay. which you've done incredibly well. children. Richard Grellman (28:45.986) Placed to have three children, two sons and a daughter. they're all middle aged now, which is pretty scary. and between them they've produced seven lovely grandchildren. they're all active and successful in their own way in their careers. And they're nice to me and I enjoy their company. Karl Faase (29:10.488) So welcome back. Richard, we were chatting just before the break about Suelin and one of the key parts of your life and the great a great challenge for your life was when early on you knew there was something not right. What was it? Richard Grellman (29:27.97) Well, I didn't ev didn't even have the language to articulate what it might be, other than the fact that she was clearly progressively less on the ball than she had been when she was younger. she became less confident socially, her meals became repetitive, she'd been a very good cook. and then she became quite forgetful. But this is very slow over a period of time. And thinking back it was probably in her early to mid forties. Wow. When the impact of Alzheimer's started to hit her. But you know, I used to think maybe she'd had a bad night's sleep. Did we drink one bottle of red or two last night? Karl Faase (30:11.948) It it's I I wanna press in on that a bit because I've I've sort of seen this at a distance, not up close, with lots of people and there must be a really awkward period of time when you're just unsure. Like what what was it that got you to the point where there is something seriously wrong? Richard Grellman (30:30.656) Well, I used to surf in my younger years and I got two phone calls within one week from Swellan saying, I'm lost and I I said, Well, whereabouts are you? I don't know. And that's another story how I found her, but I thought something's not right here. So I went to see her GP and I said to Brian, look at I don't know what the ethics are, but I want to talk about Swellyn. Can I talk to you about her? And he was very gracious and he said, Well, we better get her in here and we'll start doing Hm we start ruling out what it isn't. Vitamin B B deficiency, high or low blood pressure, you know, there's a whole lot of things that it could be. And they give you those horrible thirty question tests, which I would have failed half the answer for. And referred us to a an aging specialist, who was hopeless. he gave her a few more of those thirty question tests and said, Look, come back in six months and we'll see how you're going. And I found that grossly unsatisfactory, so I made it a bit of a a search, found a probably the most eminent aging specialist physician in the world, certainly in Australia, and he was kind enough to take Swellan on Karl Faase (32:00.076) Let me just interrupt there and ask, when you were going to those initial, you know, y GP first specialist and then on to the second specialist, wh what did Sue Ellen think was happening? Richard Grellman (32:11.779) Hm. She knew that she was off the pace and was hap a happy participant. Okay. Wanted to get to the bottom of it. Never resisted any of it. But the second specialist, who was just a gem and he's still active, gave her all the tests, another brain scan, sat us down in a very clinical but professional way, said, You've got early onset Alzheimer's. At this stage Sue Ellen would have been in her mid fifties and it took us probably three or four years to get to this point by the time you make appointments and tests and scans and and he said, Well the the very first thing you've got to do is stop driving. So if you put a driver's license on the table and he said, Now go off and figure out whether your affairs are in order and while you're able to do whatever you want to do before you can't do it. So we wrote our little list of activities and we managed to do them all. Wow. Which were things like Sue and I wanted to visit Ayers Rock, Villaroo, she wanted to go to Jerusalem, back to Paris, back to London. We we did all of that stuff and and then a very memorable holiday in Hawaii with all the kids and grandkids for two weeks, when she was really starting to be quite unwell. but not so unwell that we weren't banned for life from a Mexican restaurant in Waikiki. 'Cause the kids got a bit rowdy. Karl Faase (33:50.094) So it wasn't so well known for children. Richard Grellman (33:52.864) No, she was horrified. Karl Faase (33:54.958) w do you remember telling the kids? Yeah. I mean they they would have picked that up, I guess, would they? Richard Grellman (34:01.12) Well, my daughter, who's a a neonatal intensum care d nurse and a a beautiful person, she and I had been talking and she probably started the conversation and said, Well you know, what are we gonna do about mum? Are you onto this? And when we got the diagnosis and told the kids they were shocked and but not surprised. And they were terrific. They are very supportive. And I had so Ellen of course living with me and we I decided that the house that

we're in was too big and she was getting lost in the house, couldn't find me. Mm-hmm. And so we downsized to a three bedroom townhouse. but that was two levels and that was too big for our in time. So we downsized again to a a two bedroom apartment and around about through that journey I'd spotted a a little cottage that I thought might be a nice one for me to live in, in the same area. And then it it it became difficult at home. You know, Swellum was really starting to struggle and needed help with a lot of daily activities. And my the the physician that that we'd been consulting had said to me when he gave us the diagnosis, don't stop working. Don't become Sue Ellen's carer. We have professionals that do everything that you'll need by way of support. If you decide to c become her carer, we might end up with two unwell people in your family. So keep working. Wow, that's interesting, isn't it? So I kept my board positions. I had to get a carer to come in during the day to look after Sue Ellen. and then when it it started to look really obvious that she needed more support than I could reasonably provide her, I had dec I'd researched options, found a place, got a room for her, paid the requisite money, secreted some furniture and and paintings into the room, made it quite homely. And I decided Richard Grellman (36:26.038) without much logic to tell her the night before. Because I thought, why give her two weeks unhappiness when she was going through a one way door? And I decided again without much logic to tell her at four PM on a Sunday. She'd taken herself off to the bathroom and wandered back in, sat down next to me and said, I'm not doing very well, am I? Richard Grellman (37:02.414) I knew that the conversation was going to be difficult. And I'd researched it and written it and memorized it. Richard Grellman (37:17.134) I got about one sentence in as I am now and broke down. Swelling is comforting me, saying, Don't worry, sweetie, it'll be all right. You're doing the right thing. I'll be okay and I want you to get on with your life. Incredibly courageous. Karl Faase (37:38.274) That's remarkable. Richard Grellman (37:40.888) So here we are. What are we talking now? nearly twenty years ago, it's still gets me, that she stepped up to the plate and said, It's the right thing to do. Karl Faase (37:57.964) Th there's there's so many layers to this story and so many kind of points of grief, isn't there? Coming to the point where you know that she's not going to get better, then coming to the point where you know you've got to keep moving and then place her in care. What about leaving her there? Richard Grellman (38:14.164) Really difficult. I mean, she was very unhappy for the first two or three years and almost always in tears. But they looked after her very well. she was always warm, dry and well nourished. Mm. she had like a little motel room with an en suite. And I knew without any shadow of a doubt that she was where she was meant to be. Yeah.

But she wasn't happy there. But a point in her decline, she was there for nine years, by the way. Gosh. Before she passed on. y w when you've got dementia, you'll pass through a veil of awareness. And she once she no longer knew where she was, who she was, who I was, it's a very comfortable world. It's a world of cotton wool. Yes. You know, you're nourished, you're warm, you're dry. Yeah. And for the last Four or five years she was perfectly fine. And that somewhat released me from, you know, the Daily Trek to see how she was. You were there? w as often as I could. Karl Faase (39:18.894) Every day. Karl Faase (39:22.412) Yes. Yep. And then and then again that's that's like an almost an emotional train anyway, because if she's not happy and then she's not happy when y you're leaving her there. Richard Grellman (39:33.44) And look, y I might drop in and s sit there for an hour with her and go for a walk round the garden. but you walk out the door and you think, and it was just hard driving away, knowing that she was there, a bit lonely. As I say, it got considerably better for her and for me and the kids when she passed through the veil. Yeah. the kids were terrific. Daughter in particular saw her a lot. But I At at that point I said to them, Look, I I don't know whether there's much point in you you know, you're all young and busy and you've got kids. by all means pop in and see mum, but I don't expect you to. You want to? That's fine. so by the time she she was ready to pass on, of course I knew I didn't know when that was going to occur, but my daughter and I had visited her one afternoon and and arranged to meet her GP. And Sarah, being a the pragmatic nurse, said to the GP, So what's this all about? You know, mum's there, she doesn't know who she is, who we are. She's vegetative. She hadn't walked for about three years by that stage. She'd been in bed all day. and the GP, a lovely Christian woman, sort of to talked around in circles and then finally looked at me and said, If you ask me to make end of life preparations, I will. now this was before VAD and I think it happens every day of the week, but You know, they I don't know what they do. They probably cut back on liquids and and sustenance and maybe a bucket of morphine handy and it it all just So she said, but you need to very clearly tell me that's what you want me to do, obviously next again. So I said, All right, that's a biggie, I'll take that away and think about it. And I'll think about it for a month. Richard Grellman (41:43.5) By the following morning I knew very clearly I would never never do that. Karl Faase (41:47.106) Never do that. Richard Grellman (41:59.362) The very next day she passed away. Richard Grellman (42:07.852) And there was a funny little side bit here. Sarah and I were leaving, having spoken to the GP. I said, we haven't said goodbye to Mum. So we went back. She's in bed, not fully vegetative really by this stage. And we said goodbye and gave her a kiss and that

was when we said goodbye. Without knowing it was goodbye. Karl Faase (42:36.822) Richard, is it is it both a joy and a deep grief? Richard Grellman (42:41.4) Yeah. The grief not so much because I'd been grieving for yeah. Gee, she was in there for nine years and we were we were working to get her in there for about six or seven, maybe ten years. by then I was pretty well grieved out. Yeah. and I it was very clear that as a Christian woman she was in the Lord's hands and the timing was his. Nothing to do with me. I wasn't gonna try and play God and say to the GP, all right, get the bucket of morphine out and as I say, the very next day. Karl Faase (43:20.011) When you look back on all of that, there's two sides of it. There's your own your own personal side of that, which is grief and dealing with it. There's also a kind of practical government society. What's your reflections on that from a bigger policy point of view? Richard Grellman (43:38.606) I might not be qualified to answer Karl. I I think the answer depends on whether you have faith or not. Mm-hmm. And if you're a person of faith, and particularly if the the person with the disease is a person of faith, I just think you've got to let God do his yeah his work. Yeah. and the timing of of their their journey and how good or bad it is It's it's all ordained. Yeah. and so I learnt a very powerful lesson. probably halfway through her time in aged care facility where I'd been praying for the Lord every day to take her. You know, she's cooked. She she's completely helpless. Lord, will you please take her into your arms? And a young fellow was preaching his very first sermon at our church and he was a sermon about perseverance. And it was like a a bolt from God. It hit me instantly that I'd been praying the wrong prayer. God didn't meet need any helpful suggestions from me. my prayer changed that very night from offering helpful suggestions to God to asking for the strength just to walk beside her. Better prayer to pray, by the way, just to enjoy the strength to stay on the journey. Wow. Karl Faase (45:14.488) Th there's so many levels to that, Bridget, but I also want to chat about what else you were doing in this period of time. You were you'd been the chair of A and P, but as you said earlier, you actually gave yourself to a whole bunch of other organizations. Yep. One of them was the World Surfing Association. Is that 'cause you were such a hot shot surfer? Like what was that about Richard Grellman (45:32.67) That would be a fail. I s retired about three years ago from surfing, but I'd been in the water for nearly fifty five years. Gosh. I just like one of tens of thousands around Sydney, a weekend warrior. Karl Faase (45:47.746) I should just say at this point, given the history of Sydney in the last year, that was a very wise choice to give up surfing. Anyway, you're one of the one of thousands of surfers. Richard Grellman (45:57.004) Yeah, and you know, you get a good wave occasionally and

you surprise yourself. but what they were looking for was someone who surfed, someone who was not aligned to any of the big surf brands, Quicksilver, Bill Bong, etcetera and someone who knew something about boardroom 'cause their board meetings were a rabble. they would usually start on a Monday afternoon and finish on a Friday afternoon, four or five days. there was a was a a thirteen person board which was six professional surfers and six industry personalities and an independent chairman. And when you think about it, the profess professional surfers wanted more money, yep, to ply their trade. And the industry guys and girls wanted to spend less money and to see the world tour unfold. And the the poor person who was the chairman was standing between these opposing forces. but it was worse than that because the practice had developed where anyone from the industry or the surf community who wanted to attend were allowed to. So there could be thirty people in the room. gosh. And four or five were Brazilians. Well they they shout and scream and if they can't get everyone's attention they stand on their chairs. And shout or scream louder. The Hawaiians just wanted to take you out and beat you up. it was a rabble, so I said, Look, I'll take on the chairmanship on two conditions. One is that we go back to the the constitution and there'll be thirteen people in the room. Second condition is that we appoint board committees, finance, discipline, rules. and the the the tour itself, you know, where are we gonna surf? And they'll be off the table. So the board meeting really should only last about half a day. Like a normal board. And I thought, well this could have could be the shortest nearly chairmanship I've ever had, but they all clapped. I think they were exasperated. Yeah. And I was on that board for eleven years. Karl Faase (48:11.34) Yes, and relieved. Richard Grellman (48:17.586) and we used to have four or five board meetings a year. But because the tour travelled around the world, that was in the marquee locations where all the good surf was happening. So so I would get myself to South Africa or Southern California or so southwest France. Karl Faase (48:36.034) So it has it had its positive. Richard Grellman (48:38.828) Hawaii. Yeah. And I you know, when you're with serving with current pros or ex world champions as your wingmen, I had some fantastic experience Karl Faase (48:49.964) Wonderful time. Did did over that time there was a great outcome for the World Surf Association and Richard Grellman (48:58.306) Look, it was because the tour was becoming harder to maintain. That was before COVID, but the the brands were all starting to fall over and they had been paying the paying the freight. and the tour was starting to fracture about the time when a couple of Americans came along and said, Would you consider selling us for sport? And I said, Lock the door and don't let them out of the room. it took about nine months to sort out all the details,

but it was taken over by American money and it I think it's in pretty good shape now. It's it's called the World Surf League now. But they've they have good competitions with very good technology covering the the events. Yeah. And as the outgoing chairman the last year by the way, I was we didn't have a chief executive, so I was the executive chairman, I was running the whole thing. And when the Americans sort of thanked me at an annual award night, they gave me Life membership. And the other thir other thirty one Life members are all ex World Champions. wow. And so I'm on that board and it came with a gold pass to every serving event for the rest of time. Wow. All ex all expenses. I went to two of them and you're standing around like a spare wheel, so Karl Faase (50:17.614) Two other couple of others that you did. Yeah you did you s you said earlier when you got advice that you should you know, y from your dad that you should serve on local committees and you're in Mission Australia. So sorry, you were in you were in Mission New South Sydney, Sydney City mission. Yep. Now that became Mission Australia. You were part of that process? Yeah. And how did how did that happen? Richard Grellman (50:41.378) Well, th th almost every city mission around the country got themselves into a degree of financial strife. and ultimately, one by one, we either took them over or invited them in as a merger, with the exception of the Melbourne City Mission, which is still outside that group. And in the middle of that process we changed the name, to a more neutral name. although Sydney City mission was the the one fiscally happy enterprise. we got we got a a national voice once we'd merged everything in and it went from strength to strength and it was a great experience for me. I was on that board for twenty five years, which is ridiculous. And you shouldn't stay on the board that long. but it was a great Christian enterprise helping people that were down on their luck. And you know, basically it was giving them a hand up, not a hand out. Yeah. And Karl Faase (51:47.862) In that process, how do how did you kind of navigate the fact that Mission Australia is now much broader than just a very Christian mission? What how do you see that? Richard Grellman (52:00.374) Well, the current the current version of Vision Australia is actually a very Christian organization. And they're they're very clear on why they exist and who they are. there are a number of very competent and caring chaplains. Mm. the board would be made up of people who are Christians. chairman's a are very very solid Christian. So I I think it's in good health from that point of view. It's it hasn't gone like Smith family and many other such organizations, perhaps even World Vision, that started out Christian but became much more secular. Karl Faase (52:39.692) Yeah. What about the Bible Society? You you had a key role with the Bible Society? Richard Grellman (52:44.78) Well, I was approached because it was about to attempt the same journey that Mission Australia went on and that is to bring all of the Bible societies into one legal entity. they tried to do that two or three times over th the decades and couldn't quite pull it off. And they said, Well, you've done it over there, why don't you do it here? And so we I met with the All of the chairmen visited each Bible society. It's it was pretty crazy. I mean, you've got a separate Bible s society in each state or territory with it its own chief executive, its own accounting system, its own balance sheet, its own board of directors. And we collapsed all of that into one legal entity with one board, one chief executive. And the initial board was made up of all of the ex chairmen. Or boys. so they became non executive directors of Bible Society Australia and they're a great group of guys. They there was no looking in the revision mirror. This is how we used to do very supportive and yeah, it's it's still around. Karl Faase (53:55.81) That is that's it. Karl Faase (54:04.098) What y going back to all those years ago that you learnt EQ, dealing with people, maybe even as a seventeen year old auditor who didn't want to give you what what you needed, some of those skills come all the way through to a a board situation like that where you're negotiating with different states, different motivations, et cetera? Richard Grellman (54:27.554) Look, without a doubt, what Bible Society needed was for everyone to pick up the keys and drop them on a table. And so in meeting with the the different Bible societies around the country, I had to try and convince them that this wasn't just a a a theft of the business that was gonna be enhancing, but they had to trust me and the process. they got a seat on the board, The biggest of them was New South Wales Bible Society and a great guy who's now passed on but was chairing it and he threw the keys down first. Mm. And all the other states and territories which were relatively small said, well if if he's done it, we probably oughta do it too and they came in one by one. Yeah, well and then we had to get each board to vote and then to recommend to members that they join this new entity. Karl Faase (55:11.809) If there Richard Grellman (55:26.53) And then we had to get all the members around Australia and it was unanimous. Karl Faase (55:31.414) It's i you know, that that history, Richard, we've talked about with KPMG, chairing AMP. Such a and then the s World Surf League, Mission Australia, Bible Society, and I know there are others. It's a a very impressive history and so well done in your service to the country and the church around the country. But in the last two years you've also faced some health issues. What's that been like for you? Richard Grellman (55:54.878) well it's been an interesting experience. I was diagnosed with Hodgkin lymphoma about one and a half years ago. I had the trifecta of treatment through two thousand and twenty-five immunotherapy,

chemotherapy, radiation therapy. terrific specialists, caring professionals. and that was wasn't life threatening, you know, the the experience. I mean, it was not particularly attending this bears' picnic, but I got through that and they gave me pretty much a a clearance. and I just found the whole thing very ex very interesting actually, 'cause for specialists like the talking professors and professors, associate professors, they're all about two years old. And they're so impressive and caring people. Yeah. anyway, look, in the fullness of time it's sort of made a bit of a return. it's recurring. I'm actually meeting with my specialist next Monday to find out what the treatment regime will be, but she has foreshadowed it'll be chemo, so we just go on that journey. Karl Faase (57:09.002) And your faith and disposition for your confidence in the future impacts how you deal with it? It Richard Grellman (57:17.814) Look, I think Christians have an unfair advantage because my attitude right from the start has been if the cancer gets me, I've got the ringside seat. I'm fine. If the specialists get the cancer, then I can t continue to live in this beautiful life. So you can't really lose. Karl Faase (57:37.898) Last area, which is a fabulous attitude. Last area, you've remarried, what was that like? Richard Grellman (57:44.338) a blessing. my my new wife is couple of years younger than me, so she's not a spring chicken. Beautiful Christian woman. when I got the diagnosis, her attitude was, Richard, you don't have cancer. We have cancer. lovely. She's been there every step of the way. So when I'm sitting there in hospital with a transfusion of chemo going in my arm, she's sitting beside me. Must be boring for her. But she's she's been terrific and we we've happily adopted a church just in the street where we live, so we walk down to church on Sundays and rather than get in the car and drive somewhere and Karl Faase (58:29.036) Now, I understand that she'd been by herself or with her children for a f a number of years and then you had as well. So at that age, kind of starting to live with somebody else, does that have its challenges? How'd you go with that? Richard Grellman (58:42.008) For us it's been seamless. I mean th she has two daughters, five grandkids, I've got my three and seven grandkids. If we all get together, there's too many of us, you know, we none of us has a house big enough to accommodate them, to feed them, so we don't play happy, happy family families. Okay. I see her kids and grandkids, she'll see my kids and grandkids. that works fine. My kids like her, grandkids like her, vice versa with her kids. It's been fine. It's been fine. But you know, we're we're not spring chickens. We don't go to the trocadero dancing anymore. and life is good. Karl Faase (59:28.33) You know, for somebody who is watching us that's have has an issue like a partner with dementia or an issue like cancer they can't get over or a illness that's that they're not getting past, how how did you deal with that almost theologically or in your relationship with God? How did you think about what was happening to Sue Ellen? Richard Grellman (59:51.104) Really with Sir Wellen and indeed with my own journey, health journey, I never really had any great crisis or anger. everyone we all know that our time on this earth is limited. something will take us out. And when Sir Wellen got crooked I thought, right, that's our journey. We'll just deal with it. and And for my own position I it didn't really worry me. I just thought, I've got cancer. see if I can find the some competent specialist, which I was fortunate to find, and go on the journey. Now that journey's about to recommence with more chemo. That'll be fun. Karl Faase (01:00:40.492) So i just go going on if I can interpret what you were saying a bit, tell me if I get this wrong. Part of your attitude with Swellin was the fact that you'd already made a decision about what happens in life, what we can control, something will you know, we're all we're all gonna deal with something. We can't expect just that it it'll be an easy life. J is that what you were thinking? And is th were you thinking that well, this happens and here's our moment. Is that what you were thinking? Richard Grellman (01:01:11.23) I don't know whether I thought about it very deeply, Karl. I I you know, I just thought, well, it's challenge. We'll do the best we can. we'll find the best s medical support that we can but you know Karl Faase (01:01:26.134) So you didn't feel yours you didn't find yourself blaming God for it. Richard Grellman (01:01:28.94) N never. Never occurred to me. Well. Karl Faase (01:01:31.4) D is that do you think that's your har I'm and this is a hard question and I understand if you don't really have an answer, didn't this partly what you felt you've been taught through your reading, you said you read the scripture union notes, you were going to a a a good solid local church, or do you think that's just your personality? Do you think there was something that you were taught or just who you are? Richard Grellman (01:01:55.448) Probably a bit of both. I mean, I've been fortunate to go to good, solid, Bible centered churches and the notion that we are here to the to do the best we can and that God is in control was very sen central to the way we and I regarded life's journey. probably reflects a bit about who I am. I'm I'm a a realist, not a dreamer. and I know that something will get me at some point. if it's cancer, then then I get to go to paradise. So give me the bad news. Funnily enough, a couple of weeks after the specialist said to me that we think we've got it. I developed a quite a bad case of pneumonia and spent two weeks in hospital. And the actor Sam Neal, that's what took him out. he had non Hodgkinston lymphoma, it's slightly different but similar. It's still blood cancer in your lymphatic system. I reckon I was closer to getting the ringside seat with pneumonia than I ever was. Undergoing treatment. I was crooked. Well. But again I thought, well, it's all right. We'll just go on this journey and see what happens. Karl Faase (01:03:24.118) Richard, it's a at so many levels it's just a remarkable story and we really appreciate you taking your time to to speak to us. So thanks for being on Insight. Richard Grellman (01:03:33.112) It's been my pleasure, Karl. Thank you. Karl Faase (01:03:35.554) This has been Insight brought to you by Olive Tree Media. If you'd like more resources to inspire and encourage you in life and faith, visit olivetreemedia.com.au. Special thanks to Excelsia University College for their support, Vision Christian Media, and to Christian Finance for sponsoring this podcast. Thanks for listening. This podcast is brought to you by Olive Tree Media. If you're looking for videos and interviews that share the impact of the gospel on lives and in our world, visit our WatchPlus platform for more. You'll find the link below wherever you're watching or listening.