התמלול המלא של S01E02: Where does your story begin?

quite involved already and probably said stuff about like being a part of the community and having known Brad for a long time did. some direct expression to me that I now can recognize as like her expressing appreciation to me in the way that happens in radical honesty. Like I appreciate you for the way that you sit and the way that you're holding yourself and the way that you carry yourself and I imagine you're very elegant and graceful and poised or something like that. For some reason one of the main things that stood out to me about the experience was this like very direct expression from somebody that I didn't know. Mak: How was that for you to receive that? Lindsay: Yeah, I really liked it. I think I liked that attention and then I also liked what her take on me was. I can picture myself sitting in that room. I can picture who I was then and how I carried myself and know that so much of it had to do with anxiety and nervousness and wanting to play pool. And I can picture how I was probably sitting in a way that was poised looking and you know, whatever. And so yeah, at the time I liked it. Now I feel a little bit like, ⁓ yeah, that's the way I was holding myself. What I think of as very careful and. Mak: a bit of posturing on your part and he was praising you for it. Lindsay: Yeah, totally. And I at the time I liked what she was seeing and there probably, I don't know for sure, but there probably was something in me that was some satisfaction with like, good, it's working. know, like that's how I come across. Mak: You mentioned something about ⁓ community, and I'm curious if you were looking for some kind of community at that point. Lindsay: I wasn't clear about that at all. mean, no is the short answer. Like, don't think that was even really anything I thought about much at the time and definitely wasn't something that I was aware of wanting. And I know that I did get that impression at least from that one person. ⁓ this is somebody who has flown from another state to do this thing with Brad. This must be something that happens, you know? Like, there's some sort of community built around this. author Brad Blanton. So it was appealing to me. Mak: So this is a one day event. How many people showed up to this thing? Lindsay: I can't recall, but I think probably about 20. We were actually in a church, which I know now is one of the former CEO's non-denominational church where events can be held. Mak: And what was the setting like that? Okay. First impressions of Brad? Lindsay: Honestly, I don't remember. Yeah, I really don't remember much about him, which is interesting because I very much remember the first time that I met Tabor and my impressions of him. A different event, yeah, a couple of years later. There just wasn't much that stood out about Brad during that first event. It was pretty short. I want to say that it was a pretty mellow experience compared to my later experiences with the workshops. Mak: at a different event. Lindsay: The main thing I remember actually is that he was ⁓ really enthusiastic about us sticking around after the official day-long workshop had ended. He had set up a viewing of a film for us to watch that he thought was a really great film that was a good example of people being radically honest in their lives. And I remember appreciating how much he seemed to like this film and think that it was like a good representation of something. really honest and real. And then I invited another friend of mine who also lived in Denver to come at that point to watch the film. And so he met Brad and he's someone that we both know and are friends with who then ended up being more connected also with Brad. Mak: I remember that around that time you had been to Landmark Forum. Yeah. Okay. I see you making kind of a face. Lindsay: On Mark education, yeah. Yeah, because I have this thing come up that's like, ⁓ shit, I'm going to sound like I'm a workshop junkie or a self-help junkie. Because yeah, I did a good amount of stuff with Landmark Education and was turned off by a lot of stuff that they did in terms of upselling everything. And same as I would now say about Radical Honesty, there's a ton of good stuff I got out of my time doing Landmark Education things and ultimately I ended up getting just too turned off. Yeah, it's designed to keep you hooked and keep you going in it to spend money and to like be sort of a part of this artificial community. ⁓ So I suppose a year or so after doing that one day workshop with Brad in Denver, I decided to move to Los Angeles and ⁓ Mak: So on to the juicy stuff, when do I come into the picture? Lindsay: moved there at the very beginning of 2013. And I think I met you in like the summer of 2013. And that was through OkCupid or whatever it was. And my guess is that my profile said something about radical honesty somewhere in it. I don't know. I remember liking you right away. I remember feeling really cool at that time in my life. And I also definitely like right away thought that you were cool and wanted you to be impressed by me. And also imagine that I was probably doing a pretty good job being myself, even in some amount of performance mode and wanting you to like me. But I can definitely remember talking with you on our first date about honesty and probably told you about the book. Yeah, and I think you seemed really into it right away. Like, ⁓ yeah, we could. take this new thing on, because I think we were hitting it off enough on our first hangout that it was clear that we would hang out more. At least I know that I had some excitement around like, it seems like this is somebody who's into the possibility of this way of being with each other, of just being more transparent and open and expressive. I'm sure it was also on my profile. Having been in open relationships for the last several years before moving to Los Angeles and talked with you about that also on our first date, and I can't recall now if that was... new to you,

like if you hadn't had open relationships before that. And I think, I mean, in my perspective, it pretty quickly took off where we were hanging out a decent amount, you know, seeing each other probably at least a few times a week and getting to know each other more, getting to like each other more. I was living in an artist's collective at the time and it turned out that you lived really close by, living on your school bus. I felt like we were both like these. interesting, creative people and that it was just like kind of ⁓ a good match and you were a five-minute bike ride away. I think the first time you came over, I remember you carrying your road bike like over your shoulder up these ⁓ metal stairs and me thinking that like that was so cool. Yeah, we went from there and I think, ⁓ yeah, there was a lot of just sort of fun and excitement and I keep wanting to say it, like I think I felt really like I was living in Los Angeles. I was living downtown. It was near the arts district. You lived in a school bus in a parking lot. I felt like just like the lifestyle thing felt really like big and interesting to me. Mak: Yeah, so I was living in the arts district. You were actually living in Skid Row. it seemed to me like that was something that was a kind of a source of pride for you. Lindsay: ⁓ yeah. Well, I think, I don't know, like, I don't like how that might come across somehow. And also, like, I do very much remember, I can remember saying things, like, when my mom would ask me about Skid Row, really, like, are you safe? I think there are a lot of things I was... clueless about in terms of like what was actually happening for the people who lived there. But I know that what I did think at the time was like, wow, I have actually never lived in a neighborhood where it feels so much like community. All of these people living around here know each other and are looking out for each other. And are also being really pleasant to me. Like I imagined it could be the case that I would be seen as like a real outsider because we lived, again, the building wasn't very nice, ⁓ but it was like right in the middle of Skid Row where obviously like a lot of people are sleeping in tents on the sidewalk. so I did have some, you know, I didn't feel great about like, here I am living like in the third floor above all these people who are like sleeping in tents on the ground below me. So yeah, I had lots of mixed feelings about it, but whatever, that version of me did feel some, did feel radical in some way or something, like living in the area that I did. There was a period of time there when we were first getting together. I think of me as feeling like really good and positive and hopeful just about my life in general. ⁓ which definitely had some to do with connecting with you and thinking like, this person seems to match what it is that I want more of in my life. yeah, living in that area, there was ⁓ some time that I was volunteering for a couple of different organizations there. One was like an art school for kids. One was some sort of art organization for the... the people who were living there who were houseless to be able to come and make art. And then there was also a women's shelter. I don't know, there was like a lot of stuff that I just like really wanted to be involved in. And yeah, everything just felt open and free and creative. And yeah, I think I felt really inspired. And the radical honesty communication was a part of that. know, like, I think I felt like when I had come across radical honesty in the book in Denver, The person I was dating at the time wasn't into it. I mean, I think he thought of himself as a very honest person and just like didn't need anything like that. There just wasn't really anybody else that I had told about that that showed any interest in it. And so then when I met you and talked with you about it and you seemed like so into it, yeah, I think something like new began for me that was like, ⁓ there really is. creative and radical ways to be relating with people. I think all of that, the combination of all of those things was just like a really, made for a really exciting time. Mak: So there was a combination of a lot of kind of alternative ways of living combined, like an artist collective in Skid Row, doing a lot of volunteering, getting involved in the community, doing open relationships ⁓ at a time when that wasn't quite yet entering into the more public discourse so much. And dating somebody who was living on a school bus, getting interested in new kinds of having relationships, both interpersonal and also romantic relationships. Lindsay: Yeah, it is. And you know, it just occurred to me that at some point when you mentioned the open relationship stuff, at some point, because of the book, I decided to tell my mom that I was doing relationships in an open way. Brad in the book talks a lot about not withholding anything, you know, like Mak: That's a lot of stuff. Lindsay: telling your parents about all the things that you did wrong when you were young. then I took that pretty seriously at some point and decided that I wanted to tell my mom that, well, first of all, that I wasn't only into boys and men, but that I was interested in, I think at the time I probably just thought of myself as bisexual. And so wanted to share that with my mom, but then also wanted to be honest with her about just like... forced myself to tell her, I'm doing this non-monogamy, this open relationship thing, and that means that I, you know, I'm not only dating the partner that you know and are familiar with, but like I'm also going to be starting to date women and other people. And she didn't say much about it when I, it was like, I think I had hung out with her a full day with the intention of talking with her about that. And it wasn't until she was dropping me off back at home after spending a full day together, I was like about to get out of the car. and then was like, okay, to hold

myself, I was going to do this thing. And made myself just kind of spit all of this information out. And I think she just said something like, okay, well, thanks for telling me. Yeah, and later down the line, we ended up having more of a conversation about it. Yeah, I think my mom really thought all of these ways that I was living and all of the stuff that I was doing was pretty cool too, even though... it would be something out of her own comfort zone and that she wouldn't choose for herself. I can definitely remember her saying, I don't know how I could ever do that, but you're the coolest person I know. You know, something like that. And I hope I can be more like you when I grow up, she said. Mak: I remember that. Yeah. Lindsay: conversations very much prompted by what I had read in the book and the push that was in the book to not withhold those kinds of things from the people in our lives. think I've always, or at least from the time that I was quite young, thought of myself as some sort of artist, some sort of creative person. And I think as I started to get into my teenage years, I don't know that I actually did. And I at least started to think of myself as like, feeling more different and odd than the other people around me. And I think at some point, I don't know at what age, probably in my 20s, somehow just starting to realize that there were more radical ways to live. And that felt really appealing to me. more that I ventured out of the suburbs that I grew up in, the more I realized that, there are so many different ways to live. And a lot of these ways are more appealing to me than what I've seen. Yeah, and then I think also just like choosing the route of open relationships had a lot to do with realizing and getting more clear with myself and then honest with my partner at the time that I was also interested in women, which then later expanded to just like being attracted to and open to like anybody of any gender. But at the time, that's how it occurred for me was like, at the time, it felt like confusing to me to think I would have to just choose one or the other. You know, if I'm in a relationship with a man, I can't be in a relationship with a woman and vice versa. Yeah, just like this alternative way of being in the world that I wanted more of and wanted to solidify more for myself. I wanted that so much and I liked you so much. And we were spending so much time together while also dating other people. I don't know if we were having conversations about it from the very beginning about like exactly what we wanted in this way of doing open relationships with each other. It ended up that I wanted something much more like a primary partnership that I could count on that felt very like I could feel safe with whatever agreements we had and really that like anything else we were doing was secondary and less important. And I kind of cringe even at that way of doing non-monogamy at this point that doesn't sound very like ethical or great

to me. And that's how I felt at the time. Mak: What you mean by that? Lindsay: So now I'm in a monogamous relationship and have been for a few years after being single for a few years, after needing to like give myself a break from just so much stimulation in my relationships. But if I were to do any sort of like open relationship stuff in the future, which I just actually think I wouldn't, I think it would be quite different than it was in the past. Like there is something that just feels really yucky to me, even though I know that like what my nervous system does better with. would be a primary partnership that I can really count on and feel very secure in. There's also this way that now it just sounds yucky to me to think that all of these other human beings who are real people also having experiences are just secondary and should be less important and should be, I don't know. I'm sure that relationship anarchists or somebody could ⁓ be much more eloquent in some way of talking about this. That is what I'm trying to get at. Mostly I just know that now it feels like kind of gross to me. Some of what I expected of you and expected of a previous primary partner, I do think of as just kind of like yucky in terms of I wanted to be decent to the other people that they were dating and I wanted them to be, but I also definitely wanted to be, I don't know, I don't think I ever used language like veto power or anything, but it was something like that. Like I wanted to be able to be, to just always know that I was more important than the other nurse in a way that makes sense to me and also in a way that I'm kind of judgy of at this point. which is part of why I think monogamy suits me really well at this point in my life. Mak: Is there anything in particular that you want to talk about how we were relating to each other, what our day-to-day looked like? Lindsay: Yeah, I think a lot of it was genuinely fun and exciting and interesting to me and super stimulating to me. We did a ton of talking about everything in ways that we enjoyed. Like, I think we both really, really liked talking things to death, whether it was like twin peaks or talking about our relationship, talking about other people we were interested in, talking about I can definitely recall that there was so much conversation that we had that was just, like I said, really stimulating, ⁓ interesting, fun to have. So there was a lot of that, but then there also, like, the longer we were doing what we were doing, the more things became challenging for me ⁓ with how you were dating other people, the kinds of women you were dating, because they were really different from me. ⁓ I did, pretty early on, I think, start to feel pretty sure that you weren't attracted to me in the ways that I wanted you to be. I very much thought you were attracted to me as a human being, that you thought I was really cool, you wanted me around, you... I mean, I definitely thought that you were learning a lot from me, that

we were learning a lot from each other, just being the way that we were being and practicing the stuff we were practicing. But I wasn't like... getting from you what I felt like I needed or wanted. And I don't think I was very clear. Like, it's a lot easier for me to articulate that kind of thing now. I wanted to feel like just really special to you and like number one. And also like you were just, I wanted to feel like you were very physically and sexually attracted to me. And I started to doubt that pretty early on that you were. And I can remember like asking you about it a few times and you kind of saying like, ⁓ course I am brushing it off sort of to some extent. But then I just like kept bringing it up. And I can remember at some point you finally saying a little bit about like, yeah, okay, kind of like, I'm, I remember you saying something about being used to dating women who are a lot more feminine than me. ⁓ And I don't remember much more of that first conversation like that, but I remember feeling some relief and some appreciation that you were finally honest with me about this thing that I felt so certain about. And then also just like really sad and hurt and like questioning myself a lot, doubting myself a lot, thinking about like femininity, how feminine am I, how masculine, you know, like all of these things. So that became a really big struggle for me, just imagining that you were dating other people who you were really physically and sexually attracted to who looked quite different than me. Yeah, I think kind of just being with someone who was sorting out how he, how you wanted to do non-monogamy, polyamory, whatever you would call it for yourself. So I was with you while you were kind of just learning what that all was for you, I think. And we were really committed to being. honest with each other about these things. was like the whole thing that we were up to was like talking about all the stuff, even if it was really hard, even if we didn't want to, even if we felt sick talking about it. We were pretty committed to that. And I'm still sure that there are plenty of things that we didn't talk about, but I think for the most part, we really aimed to talk about these things and to process them. Such a big part of this practice of radical honesty is processing things, like going through the experience of expressing your emotions so that they can come and go, so that we can have this experience of like, feel so mad at you right now. And instead of stuffing it down and being passive aggressive, like I would have done in the past, I'm going to express it to you now and directly with like however much heat is actually in me about it, so that I can get over it, so that it can leave my system and we can get back to just like feeling neutral or good about being with each other. And I think you and I like really believed in that. I do still believe in that in so many ways. I also think we were trying to use that as our only tool and we were

processing daily, like heavy hours of processing sometimes on a daily basis because there was just so much we were struggling with. So I think we were being really honest about like the minutia of everything, but not so much just like this bigger broad topic of like, I don't want to be in partnership in the way you do and I want to be in partnership in a way that you don't want to. There was like kind of just this big truth that we were overlooking, talking about all of these other smaller truths to death and like processing all of this stuff to try to make work this thing that wasn't really working because we just really didn't want the same things from each other or in our lives. Yeah, and because we bought into it so firmly, this like, just express it and you can get over it, when that didn't work over and over again, you know, when like there were some things that I just couldn't get over because clear to me now they were just things I did not want that didn't work for me in relationship. I just kept thinking, I just need to keep telling you. I just need keep telling you how mad I am at you for this and for that. And when that wasn't working, I definitely got into a pattern of like shaming you for things and wanting you to feel like a shitty dude. You know, like I can remember saying stuff to you like you're just a fucking typical dude. Like I thought you were, I thought you were different. I thought you were cool. I thought you weren't a typical dude and you're just another fucking typical dude wanting you to feel. terrible. Like I can remember saying that kind And still probably in the vein of thinking I'm like being really honest with you. I'm being honest with you about the thoughts that I'm having, you know? Yeah, and I think I was also being honest with you at the time about like I want you to feel like shit, you know? Like I want you to feel like you've done something wrong. I want you to feel like you're being an asshole. ⁓ Mak: I mean, it sounds like it worked in some ways and didn't work in others. Lindsay: I mean, as much as I think I created so much suffering for myself in the way that we were doing that together, and I suffered a lot from like just choices you were making and things you were doing, and I'm sure you suffered in whatever ways you did, there was so much good in there too. Like I don't regret it. I wouldn't choose for it to be any different because I did learn so much stuff about myself and how I do and don't want to do relationships, how I did and didn't want to do. open relationships, it was like a huge part of my process of starting to be more willing and able to directly and transparently express what was happening for me in my life. And so even though I don't like still subscribe to the same ways of being radically honest as I did then, I do think that it really was like such a good practice for me in being with somebody who was like really down to just talk about. all the things, even when it was super challenging. It was really hard and it was really great and... Mak: How about you bring us back to your involvement with the Radical Honesty Organization, which was mainly just Brad at the time. Lindsay: Yeah, so at the point that we lived together on your bus, my friend who I said had come to the end of the one-day workshop, he had actually become more involved with Brad and Radical Honesty than I did after that evening. And he went to one of the retreats in Greece. And following that, Brad had invited him and others to participate in the first Radical Honesty online course. and that friend invited me to participate in that for free as well. I think that was sort of the first in to start actually communicating with Brad directly because he was pretty casual about everything. Even though he had this at one time bestselling book, you he sent things from his personal email address. He responded to people personally. So that was October of 2014. And at that point, definitely started to get more of a feel for the practice the way it was intended to be. So I think that after reading the book and doing just that one day workshop and practicing some with you, we had some idea of what it looked like, you know, to be radically honest. But after doing this online course that probably went on for like six or eight weeks, I actually got more of what Brad means when he's talking about radical honesty. And so I think at that point, you and I began doing it more earnestly, being more in touch with like what was happening for us in our bodies, starting to be able to more congruently express like what was actually happening for us and just feeling kind of more supported in like, there are more tools here in this thing, you know, than just like blurting out whatever it is that I'm thinking or whatever it is that's happening for me. And then it was shortly after that that Brad sent out an email. to about 30 people with an invitation to meet up in Denver for a three-day strategic planning event to bring this radical honesty thing out into the world more. He thinks he's figured out how to help people make a living teaching radical honesty. ⁓ You hadn't done any official radical honesty stuff yet, but basically I just probably talked with you about it, checked in with Brad, let him know that like... Hey, I want to come do this thing. And you wanted to as well. So like we planned to go to Denver and participate in this thing. Either before after that, again, that was a time in my life when I was feeling really like free and open and creative and positive and motivated about things. And so last night actually found this email that I wrote to him that was basically just saying all of that. And my schedule is really flexible and I'm really open and I would love to like be a part of this thing, you know? you asked earlier, like it didn't feel to me like I'm looking for community. I think it was just like, it seemed like a creative and radical kind of thing. It seemed

really in alignment with like how I felt I wanted to be living in my life. And it was just sort of a like, ⁓ it seems like Brad is like really welcoming and open to like people just getting in on this and contributing and like being a part of it. So yeah, I sent him an email basically just saying like, here I am. I think I even said like, use me in whatever ways you think you could for this work. I know I like, Yeah, so then either somewhere around that time is when we went to the three-day strategic planning thing. And I think there were probably like 10 or 12 other people there of the 30 that he had invited. We were meeting at the then CEO's house and I think I was struck by how just kind of casual and friendly it all was. It definitely wasn't at all like professional or stuffy feeling in any way. And I think that was really appealing to me. It seemed like, again, just like fun, creative, inspiring. There was like a lot of possibility there for like, ⁓ maybe I could like actually work. I just saw lots of possibilities. Yeah, so I don't know. Should I talk about the proposition I received? Mak: Absolutely. Lindsay: Okay, ⁓ so I only remember now, or I only know now because of looking back at emails last night, but it was a three-day meeting. I don't know that you and I participated in all three days, but we probably did. One of the three days, I think we were hanging out in the evening after the official meetings had ended, and I can recall at least at some point sitting around the CEO's table and drinking wine, which wasn't something that I did. I can remember Brad being at the table. can remember the CEO being at the table and at least some other people. And I imagine you, were you there when? No. Mak: Okay. remember being at the house. I maybe didn't participate very much in those meetings and I might have been out doing stuff during the day. I don't really recall. Lindsay: And I do doubt myself a little bit with like when stuff happened. So I'm thinking this is when the proposition happened, but it also actually could have happened just like straight up during the day during one of the meetings and not a break time. But anyway, at some point, Brad, just with other people there, it wasn't like the two of us alone. He wasn't trying to be sneaky about it or anything. Just in front of whoever was there, including the CEO, just in Brad's way of saying stuff, very like matter of fact, straightforward. that I was already picking up on, like, he just says, you know, the stuff, whatever. He, I don't remember everything he said, but in some way he started to express liking me, you know, just like kind of liking me as a person and said some specific things, but I don't really recall what it was like. I don't know, I think he just said something about like, you're just so easy to like. And, but then started to express attraction a little bit. And I can remember feeling like. pleased to be getting this direct attention from Brad, the person who's like in

charge of all of this stuff. But then it shifted to him saying, I'd really like to have sex with you, like in Brad's way, you know, just again, very matter of fact, not like hemming and hawing or beating around the bush at all, really just like, I'd really like to have sex with you. And, you know, I know I'm a lot older than you and you probably wouldn't want to just like do that with me to do it with me. But I could pay you for it." And he even got specific about like amount of money. And I can't recall now, but it was like $1,100 or $1,300 or something like that. And it was particular like that because it was like, this is how much extra I have in my account right now that I could spare for this kind of thing. And then he went on to tell me that he wasn't proposing like actual penetrative intercourse because his body wasn't able to do that anymore. So he was like probably 75 at the time. When did I say this was? 2014? So I was like 35-ish at the time. So, you know, big age gap there. So yeah, he assumed correctly that that wasn't something that I would just be like interested in. I don't remember if he said right away, like, what do you think about that or will you or anything? Or if he just said like, give it some thought and let me know or whatever. know that my way of responding to him... I'm sure I was smiling. I'm sure I was giggling. I'm sure I was like kind of trying to pick up on like what the other people in the room thought. The CEO, I think she probably kind of just laughed and was like, ⁓ Brad, you know, whatever, like just this, whatever the response was from the other people in the room who knew him much better than I did and who had known him much longer was. This wasn't surprising, know, this wasn't like, what the fuck are you doing, Brad? It wasn't anything like that. It was kind of like, ⁓ yeah, this is, you whatever. It it seemed very normal. Mak: Right, it's all framed in the, well, this is what radical on it. Lindsay: He's just being radically honest. Yeah. And again, it's not like he's doing it in this sneaky way. It's not like he's pulling into a room and being threatening or anything. He's just saying what he wants. He's not withholding that he's attracted to me and he would like to have sex with me. He's being radically honest. And I think to whatever extent, I expected that he would be what I imagined was radically honest at the time. And so this fit into that. And I think because of how I was already living my life, I also didn't register it as what the fuck. I didn't register it at all as like this is a person in a position of power who is doing something inappropriate. It really was like, can look back now and see how much I was fawning during that situation. I'm very clear that there was some part of me that was flattered. There was some part of me that liked the attention. There was some part of me that was horrified of having that attention with other people around, like other women witnessing him give me that. attention. I know that there was some part of me that felt like I was so financially broke that I actually thought like, should I consider this? I could really use $1,200 or whatever it was. And then really kind of went into this place of thinking like, could I do something sexual with a 75 year old dude? Because I need money, you know, like I really was just so in some way I was just like, I think open to naturally. considering at least some part of me wanted to be open to some sort of sexual proposition like this that felt radical. There was at least one person in the room who was mad at Brad for saying that to me then and for how he said it, whatever. So somebody who did in the radical honesty way express resentment to him. But for the most part, I'm pretty sure that everybody else there. went with it. Like, yeah, this is just part of what happens in radical honesty, even with the, you know, the highest up due. I don't know how I responded to him. And my guess is that I must have said something like, ⁓ I don't know, I'll think about it because I definitely didn't give him a no. I definitely didn't give him a yes. And then I'm sure I told you about it afterward and probably told you that like, I don't know, should I consider it? I could use the money. Could I really do something? I mean, I'm sure we probably talked about that a lot. I don't recall what you thought or felt about that at the time. And he brought it up again the next day to see like if I had thought about it or whatever. And I don't call exactly how that went. I just remember that he did follow up to see if I had thought about it and what my answer was and that I told him no in one way or another. Yeah, and that was kind of that. I think I didn't think all that much of it at the time that I now. can look back on and think like over time because of other things that also happened at different times, I do see how there was impact that I wasn't aware of then. Yeah, do you recall at all any of that, me talking with you about it or how you felt about that having happened or? Mak: and I don't remember that that happened in Denver at the... Lindsay: Sorry, I'm just noticing like my cheeks feel really warm and I think I was probably talking kind of fast and yeah, I feel a little short of breath and stuff. Yeah, sorry, I want to hear your answer and I also have thoughts in the background that are kind of like... Mak: Yeah, take a minute. Lindsay: Yeah, I can imagine people hearing that and thinking like, how the fuck did that not seem like a problem to you, Lindsay? know, like, how the fuck did that just seem like? And especially that it was like a room full of people that just like also were like, no big deal. This is to be expected. Mak: I mean, that's kind of your answer, I think. That's part of the answer. Lindsay: Yeah. Huh. Yeah. Mak: Yeah, maybe at a later date we'll kind of reflect on all of that and look at the different things that were at play that shaped our thinking because

the context was so different then than the context of our current lives. Lindsay: Yeah, can you even fucking imagine now? I don't know. It kind of blows my mind. Like I try to imagine any of us who are facilitating this work now at all thinking that something like that would be okay. That's so absurd. That's so absurd. Yeah, and also I'm like super curious about what Brad thinks and would say about something like that at this point. If he would still just be like, yeah, that's what radical honesty is. That's more important. to me than anything else, not withholding that that's what was happening for me. And again, like so much of the purpose in radical honesty of expressing that stuff is like, if that is a big part of my experience right now, if this is what's happening in my thoughts, if my body is telling me this stuff, like Brad distracting himself from the work, like, ⁓ I want to have sex with this person and I need to tell her that. Mak: All of that stuff was framed in, this is actually a service to the other person, what I'm doing. Lindsay: Well, and to himself. I need to do this for my own well-being so that I can just get back to being neutral in this interaction with you. Like, I need to get basically out of the space so that we can just continue doing our work. Which with some things, to some extent, I absolutely get that and think that it's great and can be a great tool, you know? And in that particular way, with somebody who's just beginning to do work, I mean, I was there doing free work for and with him. That's what all of us were there doing. were all, you know, those tenor, however many people were there, were offering three days of our time to support Brad in expanding and getting his message out into the world, you know? I didn't think of it like I need to help this person get his message out into the world, but I did feel like, ⁓ I want to be involved with this thing. This is cool. ⁓ Mak: All right, so you leave Denver after having offered your services to get involved and to help Brad get this stuff out into the world. What happens then? Lindsay: So the CEO at the time, Brad lived in Virginia. So all of this time that I was starting to help with stuff, it was all remote work. And the CEO at the time lived in Denver. I lived in Los Angeles, but kind of my home base was Denver. Mak: So you say there's a CEO, what was the organizational structure at the time? How many people were like actually involved? Lindsay: Yeah, none. It was Brad, the CEO, and then kind of just other people who were like me. So there wasn't a staff. It was Brad and the CEO working remotely from each other. And then I started to step in. Brad's main thing that he offered were these eight-day intensive radical honesty workshops. And one of those was coming up, happening in Denver in 2015. I really wanted to go to it and I had been helping, you know, with various work. And so in one way or another, we worked out that I could attend that whole, you know, residential eight-day workshop in exchange for the work that I had been doing and that I would be doing going forward. So I then was supporting the CEO in some of the logistics with that workshop and then got to go. ⁓ So that was... time that we were together, probably stayed in Denver with family for a bit leading up to that workshop. And then, yeah, went to do this eight-day workshop at a bed and breakfast here in downtown Denver and was super excited and nervous about it leading up to it. I didn't know a whole lot about what to expect except what it said on the website. And I did anticipate that it was going to be really intense and that I was going to fucking love it. This is gonna be exciting and challenging in all of the ways that I wanted it to be. ⁓ I don't know, things I can't even anticipate. Mak: In what ways? Lindsay: I think also I was just excited about meeting other and more people who wanted to be radical, to be real and honest and be themselves, people who were wanting to live creative and radical lives. There are a lot of people who showed up in that group that I would never normally be drawn to be friends with, who I then did end up totally connecting with because of the nature of the workshop. But even though didn't know really what to expect, it like... exceeded any expectations that I did have. It was nerve-racking. I think of it as probably being like terribly stress sweaty like the whole time and just, you know, in this like anticipatory anxiety about whatever might come next. Mak: Yeah, could you tell us a little bit about who was there? You were at a bed and breakfast. How many people were there? What were the kinds of things that you know were doing? What did the day look like?