התמלול המלא של Trust Physics: Where Trust Breaks Down

responsibility for your part of our relationship. 00:04:29.040 --> 00:04:30.800 That's what makes our friendship so great, right? 00:04:30.879 --> 00:04:33.360 Like when you get to work, CDLs love each other, right? 00:04:33.439 --> 00:04:37.519 Like we because we get we get the same vibe, we want the same things. 00:04:37.759 --> 00:04:49.040 But um, and that's that's the ideal, is you're when you have any relationship with somebody where they want to stay whole as a person and you want to stay whole as a person, it's really easy to respect boundaries. 00:04:49.199 --> 00:04:53.920 It's way harder when people don't know what wholeness looks like or feels like. 00:04:54.079 --> 00:05:05.360 It's harder when there are people who actively benefit from you not being whole and leading in those relationships is where things get really tricky, whether that's in the workplace, in a friendship, in your family, in your partnership. 00:05:05.439 --> 00:05:07.920 It can be, you know, it's any relationship that you're in. 00:05:08.079 --> 00:05:14.240 I think leaders are people who recognize their role in moving a relationship forward. 00:05:14.480 --> 00:05:15.120 That's beautiful. 00:05:15.279 --> 00:05:17.759 So anyone could be a leader no matter what. 00:05:18.000 --> 00:05:22.800 I think anyone who thinks relationships are important to them is probably a conscience-driven leader. 00:05:23.120 --> 00:05:24.800 Yeah, no, I I love that. 00:05:24.959 --> 00:05:31.199 And I agree with it because I think that sometimes leadership is just a piece of who you are. 00:05:31.680 --> 00:05:38.079 Uh, and I'm I yeah, I can only speak for myself and how that feels for me, but I know that there are other people that feel that way too. 00:05:38.240 --> 00:05:45.759 That leadership is just um an exciting way that you can impact the world together with other people. 00:05:46.079 --> 00:05:46.560 Absolutely. 00:05:46.720 --> 00:05:48.959 It's not a title, it's a state of being. 00:05:49.279 --> 00:05:49.680 Yeah. 00:05:49.839 --> 00:05:52.000 And I think it's important to clarify that. 00:05:52.160 --> 00:05:59.279 Uh recently, so I I run a nonprofit in science education in Tucson, Arizona called SARSEF. 00:05:59.439 --> 00:06:00.160 Um, I love it. 00:06:00.240 --> 00:06:01.279 I love my job. 00:06:01.519 --> 00:06:22.480 And um, something we did in our recent strategic planning is that we were intentional about creating a description of what we meant by leadership because we talk a lot about how everyone in the organization is a leader, whether it's of a project, of a function, or of entire um, you know, sections of the org. 00:06:22.639 --> 00:06:24.959 Like everyone is a leader in their own way. 00:06:25.120 --> 00:06:29.439 But something I noticed is that people were interpreting that differently. 00:06:29.680 --> 00:06:32.720 And talking about leadership meant a lot of different things. 00:06:32.800 --> 00:06:35.600 And it reminded me of this amazing book I read. 00:06:35.680 --> 00:06:38.879 It's called The Ancient Art of Thinking for Yourself. 00:06:39.279 --> 00:06:41.680 Uh, beautiful book, highly recommend. 00:06:41.839 --> 00:06:51.040 And a quote that I've pulled out from it is ideology floats through language like word clouds, which I think is so cool. 00:06:51.360 --> 00:06:52.480 I want to unpack that. 00:06:52.639 --> 00:06:56.879 Ideology floats through language like word clouds. 00:06:57.120 --> 00:07:00.639 I love that because I I encounter this all the time. 00:07:00.800 --> 00:07:07.040 Like people, there are these squishy words that people use in leadership that I could they drive me crazy. 00:07:07.279 --> 00:07:09.759 We're gonna talk about one of them today because it's integrity. 00:07:09.920 --> 00:07:12.319 But another one that makes me nuts is respect. 00:07:12.560 --> 00:07:13.360 Oh my God. 00:07:13.519 --> 00:07:15.519 Like respect, what do you mean by respect? 00:07:15.759 --> 00:07:21.839 Because respect what, respect how, what does respect mean to you versus another person? 00:07:21.920 --> 00:07:25.040 Like respect means a very different thing to every person. 00:07:25.199 --> 00:07:36.639 And I'm somebody who, like based on my talents, I'm really good at understanding what someone means to say and understanding what you words to use to so they hear what I mean to say. 00:07:36.800 --> 00:07:40.639 So for me, that translation is kind of natural and automatic. 00:07:40.800 --> 00:07:51.120 But I know for most people and a lot of my work revolves around translating what people are trying to say to each other because they just, they just butt heads all the time. 00:07:51.199 --> 00:08:00.720 And so ideology, I think there's a, I think we don't give enough credit to the ideology at work in our work and in our leadership, regardless of where that leadership is happening. 00:08:00.959 --> 00:08:18.879 And something that the book recommends is if there's something you're really diving into like leadership, find the definitions of that through time and see how it changes and think about what was happening in history when leadership was uh being someone that is an authority that tells everyone what's to do and they do it. 00:08:19.040 --> 00:08:29.279 You know, and that's not what we meant when we talked about leadership in SARS, but it is a part of the history of that word and the way that people understood their role in leadership. 00:08:29.439 --> 00:08:34.720 So getting a chance to come together and say, what do we mean as a leader was really important for us. 00:08:35.200 --> 00:08:35.840 Absolutely. 00:08:36.000 --> 00:08:38.159 I feel like, I feel like that's just true all the time. 00:08:38.320 --> 00:08:40.159 Like what do we mean by words? 00:08:40.320 --> 00:08:48.000 Because there's all of history and then there's our individual histories, and we're always bringing our own history into every conversation. 00:08:48.159 --> 00:08:52.159 And so, yeah, it's so important to

know what we mean by these words. 00:08:52.480 --> 00:08:53.600 Yeah, absolutely. 00:08:53.759 --> 00:09:05.200 And I think that's something that would be cool for our listener to do too, is to really be mindful of what is their definition of leadership when they think of themselves as a leader, what does that mean to them personally? 00:09:05.360 --> 00:09:08.720 Because it's something different to them than it does maybe even to the two of us. 00:09:09.039 --> 00:09:09.519 Absolutely. 00:09:09.600 --> 00:09:10.879 And what could it mean? 00:09:10.960 --> 00:09:15.200 Like what does leadership mean based on your experience of external leaders? 00:09:15.440 --> 00:09:18.399 And what does it mean when you think of yourself as a leader? 00:09:18.559 --> 00:09:20.879 And are those definitions the same or are they different? 00:09:21.039 --> 00:09:24.000 Because you can be a different kind of leader than you've experienced. 00:09:24.159 --> 00:09:25.279 It's hard. 00:09:25.679 --> 00:09:38.639 There's something called a possibility model that I is a concept that I'm just obsessed with, which is that as humans, we have a really hard time imagining a future for ourselves that we have not seen someone else embodied. 00:09:39.120 --> 00:09:47.200 And so we need a possibility model in order to become the full the truest version of ourselves. 00:09:47.360 --> 00:09:56.559 And some of us grow up in families where the possibility models that we see in our lives are very aligned with who we are, and some of us don't. 00:09:56.879 --> 00:10:06.559 And you have to meet other people and you have to see other people who give you that potential destination so that you can imagine your own road there. 00:10:06.799 --> 00:10:20.000 Um, and so my hope, I guess, I guess I hope that we are creating a possibility model for some folks about what leadership can be, because in the world broadly, leadership often means something very different than what we're talking about, right? 00:10:20.080 --> 00:10:25.679 Like the current standard of leadership is not driven by conscience. 00:10:25.840 --> 00:10:27.039 It really isn't, right? 00:10:27.120 --> 00:10:32.159 The capitalist model of leadership is driven by revenue and profit. 00:10:32.480 --> 00:10:34.639 And that is not centering people. 00:10:34.799 --> 00:10:39.200 And conscience-driven leadership is very much an antidote to that. 00:10:39.279 --> 00:10:45.600 And it still leads to profit and sustainability in business, but that's not its primary goal. 00:10:45.759 --> 00:10:48.559 Its primary goal is the people who do the work. 00:10:48.799 --> 00:10:52.639 The outcome of investing in people is the success of the business. 00:10:52.879 --> 00:11:00.639 But and it actually isn't very effective to have a business that centers only profit because it does so at the cost of people. 00:11:00.799 --> 00:11:07.200 And that actually usually it often leads to bad business outcomes, but those are longer term. 00:11:07.279 --> 00:11:10.639 And when you focus on short-term revenue, you wind up really without conscience. 00:11:10.799 --> 00:11:16.960 And I think, and I hope our listeners can extrapolate on that because I think it's really prevalent in the world right now. 00:11:17.360 --> 00:11:17.840 I agree. 00:11:17.919 --> 00:11:24.720 And I think it it brings us back to the idea of trust and how people feel when they engage with you as a person or a business. 00:11:24.799 --> 00:11:45.519 And it's something I'm really excited about, how you've taken this that you've seen in the world and kind of given it language and given given it more shape so that people can really understand it, because then there is opportunity to build community with other people whose leadership is focused around relationships and others and making this world even better for everyone. 00:11:45.679 --> 00:11:56.559 And because finding each other is how we find others that we can bounce off of and see those examples and know that this is possible, even in this world that is so driven by revenue. 00:11:56.879 --> 00:11:57.279 Yeah. 00:11:57.519 --> 00:12:04.799 And one of the things about trust physics that I felt was important is we talk about trust in a very currency-based language, typically, right? 00:12:04.879 --> 00:12:10.159 We talk about I give you trust or you earn my trust or you broke my trust. 00:12:10.320 --> 00:12:16.399 Like all of the way we talk about trust as a feeling is actually very much like we talk about currency. 00:12:16.559 --> 00:12:27.120 And I think that that really damages our ability to build it and damages our ability to see how it erodes because it's not, it's not just a feeling and it's not just a currency. 00:12:27.200 --> 00:12:30.879 It's something, it's a it's structure, it's something that builds and erodes. 00:12:31.120 --> 00:12:36.960 And so that's why I was inspired to write this book and to think about trust like we think about physics. 00:12:37.120 --> 00:12:39.919 These are this is a thing that follows laws. 00:12:40.159 --> 00:12:43.519 You can learn the laws and use it to do amazing things, right? 00:12:43.600 --> 00:12:53.360 Like since physics was invented as a field, and the more we learn about physics, the more we're able to create bigger and better things and more and more sophisticated things in science. 00:12:53.519 --> 00:12:54.799 The same is true with trust. 00:12:54.879 --> 00:13:04.240 Like if we understand the operating system of it, we can interact with that operating system in ways that create magic and really great things. 00:13:04.559 --> 00:13:12.000 I feel like that's a great chance for us to jump into kind of directness and integrity, which seem like really important contexts for this. 00:13:12.159 --> 00:13:14.639 So uh maybe we can start with directness. 00:13:14.799 --> 00:13:16.799 Why does that matter in leadership? 00:13:17.120 --> 00:13:22.399 Directness matters in leadership because people don't know what you're

thinking. 00:13:23.519 --> 00:13:31.519 It's a common human problem that we expect everyone around us to know what we're thinking because to us, we're thinking something extremely rational. 00:13:31.840 --> 00:13:39.600 And so obviously anyone could come to the same conclusion, but we forget that everybody's minds are full of all kinds of different things that we can't anticipate. 00:13:39.919 --> 00:13:43.600 I do want to clarify that directness does not equate with rudeness. 00:13:43.840 --> 00:13:48.080 I think we think as a culture that to be direct is rude and they're separate. 00:13:48.159 --> 00:13:50.000 You can be direct and not rude. 00:13:50.320 --> 00:13:55.360 A phrase that I I I dislike when people use is, well, I'm just telling it like it is. 00:13:55.519 --> 00:14:03.759 No, that's an excuse for you to be rude and harmful and to state what you think in a way that you know is gonna be damaging. 00:14:03.919 --> 00:14:07.440 And so that is not what we're talking about when we talk about directness here. 00:14:07.759 --> 00:14:13.200 I have a really negative response to the phrase devil's advocate. 00:14:13.440 --> 00:14:16.399 To me, there's a little bit of half-truth to that. 00:14:16.559 --> 00:14:21.440 This is clearly something that's in someone's mind that is maybe the thing that they don't want to say out loud. 00:14:21.519 --> 00:14:25.200 So they somehow, you know, just give it to the devil. 00:14:25.440 --> 00:14:29.120 And I think that instead we should just be having the hard conversations. 00:14:29.279 --> 00:14:36.080 It it almost makes it so it tries to shift that accountability from you to something more amorphous. 00:14:36.240 --> 00:14:43.279 And I think that just having those real conversations is going to be more valuable than saying, well, devil's advocate. 00:14:43.360 --> 00:14:44.159 This isn't me. 00:14:44.320 --> 00:14:46.000 This is an advocate to the devil. 00:14:46.159 --> 00:14:53.600 You know, and I feel like that that is a way that people try to be direct while nesting it into something that makes them less accountable. 00:14:53.919 --> 00:14:56.799 It's a way that people mask instead of having integrity. 00:14:56.879 --> 00:15:02.240 It's a way they they hide their their lack of wholeness in the situation. 00:15:02.320 --> 00:15:07.200 They're not willing, they're not willing to be accountable for their own thoughts and feelings and things they're about to say. 00:15:07.279 --> 00:15:09.679 So they're discarding that accountability. 00:15:09.759 --> 00:15:15.279 And accountability is really the central thing that conscience-driven leaders need. 00:15:15.440 --> 00:15:23.120 It's the it's the primary tool because alignment is what we need from our from the people we work with in conscience-driven leadership. 00:15:23.200 --> 00:15:31.120 You know, we we have to have alignment, so we're all moving in the same direction, but accountability is how we enforce that alignment or we insist on that alignment.

00:15:31.440 --> 00:15:42.720 And so anything that you do that dismisses your own accountability is damaging the relationship because you're not you're not owning what you really think. 00:15:42.960 --> 00:15:46.720 So it's my understanding there's a lot that we do instead of being direct. 00:15:46.879 --> 00:15:52.559 So there's this way that we mask directness, but there's also just us trying not to be direct. 00:15:52.799 --> 00:15:59.279 So um I uh the first thing I know that you talk about in your book is we just avoid. 00:15:59.440 --> 00:16:02.320 Do you have examples of that and like what you mean by that? 00:16:02.799 --> 00:16:03.039 Yeah. 00:16:03.200 --> 00:16:13.360 And I think what you're talking about masking is a way of avoiding, you know, like that's maybe we're trying, it's it's an attempt to be direct when we don't feel like we can. 00:16:13.759 --> 00:16:16.320 But there are lots of ways we avoid directness. 00:16:16.480 --> 00:16:18.960 We tend to think, oh, it's not worth it. 00:16:19.120 --> 00:16:23.519 Like, oh, it's gonna create great because we're afraid of accountability culturally. 00:16:23.679 --> 00:16:26.960 We don't know how to do it without damaging the relationship. 00:16:27.120 --> 00:16:30.960 And so, of course, we want to avoid it because we want to avoid damaging the relationship. 00:16:31.120 --> 00:16:35.120 And we wind up damaging the relationship by avoiding it. 00:16:35.279 --> 00:16:36.879 So we think, oh, it's not worth it. 00:16:37.039 --> 00:16:41.120 We think, oh, I'll just let this slide, they'll figure it out, I'll give them time, et cetera. 00:16:41.200 --> 00:16:52.000 It's just any way that you know that there's something that you, there's something you wish you could say or there's something you feel like needs to be said, and you find an excuse not to, that's avoiding. 00:16:52.320 --> 00:16:54.000 Yeah, and that makes sense. 00:16:54.240 --> 00:17:17.200 One that really resonated with me is being accommodating instead of being direct about what you need or uh how you see a situation, instead you're really focused on reading that room and knowing what the person on the other side of the booth uh wants to hear uh and needs to hear and kind of bending yourself to what that looks like. 00:17:17.359 --> 00:17:26.720 It may be to keep the peace, it may be to uh preserve the relationship, even though what you're really doing is degrading that relationship in the process. 00:17:27.039 --> 00:17:27.359 Right. 00:17:27.440 --> 00:17:29.519 Because right, it takes friction to grow. 00:17:29.680 --> 00:17:41.039 And so if you accommodate and you make everything easy for somebody and you don't show them where they're stepping outside the lines, you're robbing them of the ability to grow stronger. 00:17:41.359 --> 00:17:47.599 And I recognized my the way that I do that is I accommodate recently. 00:17:47.759 --> 00:17:51.119 I was on a very difficult hike with some friends. 00:17:51.359 --> 00:17:55.599

And it was one of those hikes that goes down the mountain and then back up. 00:17:55.759 --> 00:18:00.799 And so once you get to the bottom, uh, you have a long way to go to get to the car. 00:18:01.200 --> 00:18:13.200 And my mind immediately went to, okay, here I am, someone that just went through, you know, treatment of cancer, getting to know the drugs and how they impact my body. 00:18:13.440 --> 00:18:17.920 I'm I'm more tired than I normally was, but I'm also still very stubborn. 00:18:18.079 --> 00:18:23.119 And I also still very much love nature and I want to be out there on those trails. 00:18:23.359 --> 00:18:32.799 Uh, but once we started up that hill, I just kept thinking, like, oh my gosh, how do I make sure I'm accommodating everyone else on this trail? 00:18:33.039 --> 00:18:37.039 Like, how do I make sure that my group isn't being held back by me? 00:18:37.359 --> 00:18:41.599 And they were so good at showing me that that's not what it was. 00:18:41.759 --> 00:18:50.400 Like I was so grateful every time I needed to stop, they just stared out into the beautiful nature and made sure that I knew that it was okay. 00:18:50.720 --> 00:19:05.279 And knowing that I didn't have to try to accommodate at the expense of my body in this group was so special and felt like such an important leadership that I was like, oh my gosh, I'm gonna take so much away from this because I see patience in it. 00:19:05.519 --> 00:19:14.559 I see taking care of the group in a way that doesn't limit them necessarily because they're not there to rush a recent cancer patient up a mountain. 00:19:14.720 --> 00:19:16.319 That's not what they want to do. 00:19:16.720 --> 00:19:22.799 What they want to do is spend time with me and other friends and be in nature and look out and see the gorgeousness. 00:19:22.960 --> 00:19:32.000 But it took time for me to relax into myself and let myself be who I am because there are different cultures out on the trail. 00:19:32.079 --> 00:19:35.119 There are people that are like, no, we have to get to the car as fast as possible. 00:19:35.359 --> 00:19:39.680 And no, what these people said is the only rule is we have to get back to the car. 00:19:40.000 --> 00:19:42.079 Together and okay. 00:19:42.240 --> 00:19:48.160 Like we get back to the car and the goal is we get back to the get the car, we all feel good about the day. 00:19:48.319 --> 00:19:51.599 So you have a bunch of conscience-driven leaders as your friends what you're telling me. 00:19:52.640 --> 00:19:53.759 We're taking care of you. 00:19:53.839 --> 00:19:54.960 Yeah, so hard. 00:19:55.119 --> 00:19:57.279 Those of us conditioned female by the world, right? 00:19:57.359 --> 00:20:07.440 Like we have so much programming, even if we've worked really hard, even if you know, to overcome all of all of those feelings that we are not enough or that we need to sacrifice. 00:20:07.599 --> 00:20:14.480 I think conscience-driven leaders, because often are it's easy for us to sacrifice for other people and accommodate other people. 00:20:14.559 --> 00:20:15.440 Oh, we'll just help them. 00:20:15.599 --> 00:20:24.799 I think that's probably the easiest avoidance for conscience-driven leaders is oh, I'll just step in for them, I'll just help them out because we're we're we want to be helpful. 00:20:25.039 --> 00:20:26.960 And it's it's just not always helpful. 00:20:27.119 --> 00:20:34.640 Another way that we that we avoid directness, well, the outcome of avoiding directness is we explode, right? 00:20:35.359 --> 00:20:38.240 Like, I don't like I don't like being angry. 00:20:38.319 --> 00:20:39.440 I don't think you like being angry. 00:20:39.519 --> 00:20:40.960 I'm sure we both have examples. 00:20:41.119 --> 00:20:42.480 I'm exploding. 00:20:42.720 --> 00:20:51.519 I once, my poor technical director, I once threw both my notebook and my purse at my technical director because he just was not getting what I was talking about. 00:20:51.680 --> 00:20:53.359 In my defense, it was 4 a.m. 00:20:53.759 --> 00:20:57.359 We had been working 16-hour days for many weeks and we're about to open a show. 00:20:57.680 --> 00:21:03.920 But still, explosion happens when we haven't been communicating our frustration, right? 00:21:04.079 --> 00:21:06.720 Like avoiding eventually leads to frustration. 00:21:06.960 --> 00:21:16.640 Once you've started avoiding, you keep avoiding and then and it builds and builds and builds until we explode at somebody, and then it's completely out of proportion to the thing they just did. 00:21:16.880 --> 00:21:25.200 They don't understand what's happening, they don't they don't have the context in our mind that we have in our mind of all the times that we have not told them the truth. 00:21:25.519 --> 00:21:28.400 They just know that, like, oh, right now I made you mad. 00:21:28.480 --> 00:21:35.839 And it actually makes us seem inconsistent and scary, which is something I think we as conscious servant leaders really don't want to be. 00:21:36.079 --> 00:21:40.960 Yeah, I think I have examples too where it was more of an inner explosion. 00:21:43.519 --> 00:21:50.480 Where I like the other person maybe isn't even there, but I just go into a room and scream. 00:21:51.200 --> 00:21:52.799 What's wrong with this person? 00:21:52.960 --> 00:21:54.640 How come they don't understand? 00:21:55.440 --> 00:21:55.920 Right. 00:21:56.240 --> 00:21:57.519 Why are they such an idiot? 00:21:57.599 --> 00:22:02.319 Like we turn into all these judgments and Right, how does the relationship recover from that? 00:22:02.480 --> 00:22:04.880 Like damage has happened at that point. 00:22:05.119 --> 00:22:06.480 Yeah, absolutely. 00:22:06.960 --> 00:22:20.960 I think something else that we we do is we we use accountability as a punishment instead of something that can be a kind of long-term journey for a relationship and maintaining that relationship. 00:22:21.119 --> 00:22:27.200 Um, so when we weaponize accountability, uh,

you know, it's something we do to people who've disappointed us. 00:22:27.279 --> 00:22:47.200 Um, and so then maybe they don't know what your expectations were, but and maybe they do, but that accountability is used as a hammer if they cross that line instead of using it as a conversation in a way to help them grow or a way to really clarify the relationship in deeper ways. 00:22:47.599 --> 00:22:47.839 Right. 00:22:48.000 --> 00:23:05.680 And um we'll get to this when we talk about accountability more, but you know, we've all experienced this kind of accountability, and it's why we're afraid to do it, because we think we've equated accountability with punishment because it's been used that way with us, where, well, I'm gonna hold you accountable because you can't do it yourself, right? 00:23:05.759 --> 00:23:08.880 Like that this this it's this moral judgment ultimately, right? 00:23:08.960 --> 00:23:18.079 Like we've we've turned accountability into something you either do or don't do, not something that's relational and a gift of helping somebody understand. 00:23:18.319 --> 00:23:24.880 And in trust physics, that's how we look at accountability is as something that is meant to help the relationship. 00:23:25.200 --> 00:23:28.400 But this punishment model is something we all know. 00:23:28.720 --> 00:23:29.920 We've all been there, right? 00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:34.799 We've all had those bosses or those reviews of like, well, you need, uh you're gonna need more accountability. 00:23:34.880 --> 00:23:38.160 So that means that I'm gonna, you know, and that leads into the next one. 00:23:38.319 --> 00:23:40.400 I'm gonna be more controlling now, right? 00:23:40.480 --> 00:23:42.880 Like you've proven that you're not trustworthy. 00:23:43.039 --> 00:23:45.440 So, right, again, worthy of trust. 00:23:45.759 --> 00:23:53.039 Not that trust is something that builds and and erodes or degrades, but as something that you're worth or not worth. 00:23:53.359 --> 00:23:57.680 We get this moral judgment, which is also an escape from accountability. 00:23:57.839 --> 00:24:04.880 Um, and and then we say, Oh, I'm not, I'm not gonna tell you what the real problem is and help you solve it. 00:24:05.039 --> 00:24:07.599 I'm gonna treat you like you're incapable. 00:24:07.920 --> 00:24:19.440 And, you know, and that it's a form of punishment to be controlling and to be to have this moral judgment about you as a person because you haven't fulfilled expectations that weren't named in the first place. 00:24:19.680 --> 00:24:27.599 So bringing us full circle on directness, directness is how we give people the opportunity to be successful. 00:24:27.759 --> 00:24:36.720 And if we don't give them that, they can't, they then they are doomed to fail unless they happen to just magically be someone who thinks a lot like us. 00:24:36.960 --> 00:24:37.200 Yeah. 00:24:37.359 --> 00:24:38.640 No, that makes a lot of sense. 00:24:38.799 --> 00:24:50.799 And something that I do at my organization in, and it's very genuine, it might sound a little cutesy, but it is it is very true to me is that I celebrate anytime someone brings me their mistake. 00:24:51.279 --> 00:24:57.200 Anytime they say, I goofed, this happened, I'm like, oh my gosh, you're human. 00:24:57.440 --> 00:24:58.720 That's amazing. 00:24:59.039 --> 00:25:03.920 And like we actually get to work through it now because mistakes are going to happen. 00:25:04.160 --> 00:25:16.640 And if we just take joy in the fact that we can talk to each other and share when these things happen and work through them together, then we come out of it a stronger team and a stronger organization. 00:25:16.880 --> 00:25:17.599 Absolutely. 00:25:17.839 --> 00:25:22.880 I I hope it's not terrible that I so often equate things to dogs and horses. 00:25:22.960 --> 00:25:26.079 But this reminds me a lot of the two golden retrievers that I used to have. 00:25:26.240 --> 00:25:29.839 And if you've ever known a golden retriever, you know they pick up everything in their mouth. 00:25:30.160 --> 00:25:34.240 And if when a dog picks up something they're not supposed to, you go, Oh my God, don't do that. 00:25:34.319 --> 00:25:35.039 No, no, no. 00:25:35.279 --> 00:25:36.079 What are they gonna do? 00:25:36.240 --> 00:25:37.519 They're gonna run away. 00:25:38.000 --> 00:25:50.880 So instead, from the time they were little bitty puppies, every time they picked up something they weren't supposed to have, a light bulb, you know, you know, socks that they were gonna eat, papers off the counter, whatever. 00:25:51.200 --> 00:25:54.319 Our immediate response was, thank you so much. 00:25:54.640 --> 00:25:56.400 Oh my god, you're such a good puppy. 00:25:56.480 --> 00:25:59.359 You put you did the thing you were designed to do. 00:25:59.519 --> 00:26:01.680 You picked this thing up in your mouth, aren't you so great? 00:26:01.759 --> 00:26:03.359 And they were like, I am so good. 00:26:03.519 --> 00:26:05.200 And they would come up and be all proud. 00:26:05.359 --> 00:26:09.039 And it got to the point where anything they picked up, they'd be like, Look what I have. 00:26:09.119 --> 00:26:10.799 Oh, wow, aren't you special? 00:26:10.960 --> 00:26:11.680 Thank you so much. 00:26:11.839 --> 00:26:14.400 I'm gonna take that light bulb before you die. 00:26:16.160 --> 00:26:23.920 But right, like I learned how to do most human interactions through dogs and horses, uh, mostly horses, but also lots of dogs. 00:26:24.079 --> 00:26:26.559 So it it always winds up tying together for me. 00:26:26.880 --> 00:26:30.240 Like, you can't things you can't do with animals, you shouldn't do with people. 00:26:30.400 --> 00:26:38.079 And it's amazing to me how often people do to humans things they would never do to an animal because it wouldn't work with an animal. 00:26:38.160 --> 00:26:40.480 And you know what humans are animals. 00:26:42.720 --> 00:26:44.319 Animals with language. 00:26:44.480 --> 00:26:45.599

Yeah, that's all we are. 00:26:45.759 --> 00:26:48.960 So we just have more opportunity to misunderstand each other. 00:26:49.200 --> 00:26:49.839 Yep. 00:26:50.240 --> 00:26:51.359 Absolutely. 00:26:51.519 --> 00:26:56.720 Um, I think that kind of brings us to how integrity kind of goes into this too. 00:26:57.200 --> 00:26:57.599 I do. 00:26:57.680 --> 00:26:58.799 I think we're I think we're there. 00:26:58.960 --> 00:27:02.559 Integrity is our next important concept. 00:27:02.960 --> 00:27:03.440 Yeah. 00:27:03.680 --> 00:27:12.079 Um, I feel like it really matters in leadership uh because it's when expectations are both named and upheld. 00:27:12.319 --> 00:27:18.720 Um, you can see the whole system of people and processes and what they're supposed to be doing. 00:27:18.960 --> 00:27:24.079 And that's all both out loud and truly being upheld. 00:27:24.400 --> 00:27:29.039 And it's something, it's a word we tend to use, you see it on a lot of value statements without a definition. 00:27:29.200 --> 00:27:35.279 And so I this is something that because clients are always like, well, integrity is important to us, and it'd be like, okay, what do we mean by integrity? 00:27:35.440 --> 00:27:39.599 And they're like, uh, you say you do what you say you'll do. 00:27:39.680 --> 00:27:41.599 I'm like, well, yeah, that's certainly part of it. 00:27:41.920 --> 00:27:52.240 But the root word, the root word of integrity is integer, which if you remember math, you may or may not, is it means entire, it means a whole number, right? 00:27:52.400 --> 00:27:55.759 And so integrity means wholeness. 00:27:55.920 --> 00:27:57.759 It is about doing what you say you'll do. 00:27:58.000 --> 00:28:07.359 There's a phrase my dad has that's always in my head, which is say what you mean, mean what you say, don't say it mean, which is kind of uh, you know, that's the shorthand version of this. 00:28:07.599 --> 00:28:09.039 How is harder, right? 00:28:09.119 --> 00:28:13.119 Like uh you can say that and then also be confusing. 00:28:13.279 --> 00:28:19.200 Um, so I think it's clarity is important and checking to make sure you're understood is an important caveat to that. 00:28:19.359 --> 00:28:26.160 Um, but yeah, integrity does mean following through on what you say you'll do, but it also means being consistent. 00:28:26.240 --> 00:28:49.119 It means, and in order to be consistent, you have to be yourself because the less yourself you are or the less whole you are, the harder it is to be consistent in, you know, because having integrity as a leader, a lot of that means, you know, your staff, your team knows if they make a mistake, they're gonna come to you and you're gonna be like, oh, we're gonna do a dance now. 00:28:49.359 --> 00:28:55.680 So they're not afraid because you've taught them that over time over time through your consistency. 00:28:55.759 --> 00:29:07.200 And you probably told them that at first they didn't believe you because lots of people say they're gonna do one thing, and then when the actual thing happens that causes an emotional reaction, a very different version comes out. 00:29:07.359 --> 00:29:16.240 So yeah, integrity is as much about knowing yourself really authentically, so you can remain whole in your relationships with other people. 00:29:16.480 --> 00:29:17.440 I think that's beautiful. 00:29:17.519 --> 00:29:31.200 And I can see how these two concepts really are important to each other because when you're direct about who you are and what you expect, it can lead to greater integrity within a system and within a relationship. 00:29:31.440 --> 00:29:32.559 Would you say that's true? 00:29:32.960 --> 00:29:33.519 Absolutely. 00:29:33.680 --> 00:29:43.759 And when you have integrity and you have that wholeness and you know yourself, it is much easier to be direct because you're not afraid that you will lose part of yourself in the communication. 00:29:43.920 --> 00:29:54.799 You and you know that any of the things that you could do instead that to avoid or control or punish or accommodate is actually damaging your integrity. 00:29:55.279 --> 00:30:00.400 Because when there's a problem, if you have integrity, you have to say something. 00:30:00.799 --> 00:30:04.240 That is what the other person needs in order for them to be whole. 00:30:04.480 --> 00:30:13.759 And if you have integrity, you want everyone you're in relationship to also be whole and have the opportunity to respond to the reality of the situation. 00:30:14.000 --> 00:30:14.240 Yeah. 00:30:14.319 --> 00:30:24.960 And I think that feels like a kind of brimming excitement to me because it feels like we're truly doing the work together in creating the world we want. 00:30:25.119 --> 00:30:34.079 Because once we're whole and we can come together and be honest about uh problems we see coming up on the horizon, it just becomes part of that great work that we're doing. 00:30:34.160 --> 00:30:36.000 And I think that's really exciting. 00:30:36.960 --> 00:30:41.519 Well, and you because you know the people you're dealing with are whole, you that's resilience too. 00:30:41.599 --> 00:30:49.519 You're not worried that you're going, that they're gonna misinterpret something that you say because if they do, they'll be curious, they'll ask you about it. 00:30:49.759 --> 00:30:59.039 One of the things that I say in the book that I I really love as an image for this is that when we talk about a bridge having integrity, we're not we're not talking about the bridge doing what it says it does. 00:30:59.119 --> 00:31:04.079 We're talking about every piece of the bridge being in the place it's supposed to be so that the bridge does not collapse. 00:31:04.319 --> 00:31:09.279 And so integrity allows things to be strong and not collapse. 00:31:09.519 --> 00:31:10.160 That's beautiful. 00:31:10.319 --> 00:31:13.279 And I think it's a good image for us to to wrap on. 00:31:13.359 --> 00:31:14.079 What do you think? 00:31:14.319 --> 00:31:15.599 I think it's great. 00:31:15.839 --> 00:31:17.759 This has been a super fun conversation. 00:31:17.839 --> 00:31:21.920 I need to give props to Julie for helping structure our conversation. 00:31:22.079 --> 00:31:32.319 So you'll notice that our second season is going to be a little bit more coherent, and that is entirely due to your brilliant self-startingness to be like, hey, I want to structure this. 00:31:32.400 --> 00:31:33.440 How does that sound? 00:31:33.680 --> 00:31:35.039 Flippin' fantastic. 00:31:35.279 --> 00:31:36.079 Thank you. 00:31:36.559 --> 00:31:43.599 Well, and that takes a lot of trust for you to let me take the incredible work you're doing and build a structure that I see within it. 00:31:43.759 --> 00:31:47.119 So I, you know, to wrap us up, I want to have our thank yous. 00:31:47.200 --> 00:31:51.039 And it's a big thank you to you for letting me be on this fun adventure. 00:31:51.200 --> 00:31:52.480 I really am enjoying it. 00:31:52.559 --> 00:31:53.680 I'm excited for it. 00:31:54.240 --> 00:31:55.359 Thank you for being on this journey. 00:31:55.440 --> 00:31:58.640 It really helps me so much to have the reflection of it. 00:31:58.880 --> 00:32:03.680 So we could go on in the Mutual Admiration Society, I think, for longer than the podcast. 00:32:03.759 --> 00:32:08.640 So I will move on to also thank everyone who collaborated on the Trust Physics book. 00:32:08.720 --> 00:32:12.240 There were many people who read and offered suggestions and feedback. 00:32:12.400 --> 00:32:13.440 And I thank you all. 00:32:13.599 --> 00:32:16.480 I want to thank Anna Miller, our amazing podcast producer. 00:32:16.640 --> 00:32:18.000 She is not my alter ego. 00:32:18.160 --> 00:32:21.039 It is a real person whose name just happens to match mine. 00:32:21.200 --> 00:32:27.440 And also, of course, thank you to the audience for listening to us because us talking to each other is fun. 00:32:27.599 --> 00:32:30.480 Us talking to each other with you listening is even more fun. 00:32:30.720 --> 00:32:35.119 You can find us on our website, conscience drivenleadership.com. 00:32:35.359 --> 00:32:38.880 Uh, and there's a lot more information there about trust physics. 00:32:38.960 --> 00:32:40.799 You can get the book on trust physics on the website. 00:32:41.039 --> 00:32:42.160 We will catch you next time. 00:32:42.400 --> 00:32:42.960 Can't wait. 00:32:43.119 --> 00:32:43.920 See you soon. 00:32:44.160 --> 00:32:44.640 Bye. 00:32:44.799 --> 00:32:45.359 Bye.