התמלול המלא של Unlocking Creativity with Jason Blair

was the first time it had ever made his debut in Columbus. And they wanted my dad to sort of put on like the opening night for it. And so I was like, Yeah, I'll go down and help you set up. So I went down, I met him in the parking garage, and I was like, okay, dad, where are we, where are we going to set this up? This is gonna be cool. And he's like, We're here. And I looked around, I was like, This is the parking garage. And he's like, Yeah, this is it. And I was like, I remember that moment thinking, like, this is crazy. My dad's crazy. I just gotta set up chairs and get out of there. So I set up the chairs like he wanted, and then I left because then he had to do other things. And I came back that night, right before the event started. And I'll tell you what, when I walked there, like, Even as like a third grader, I remember getting chills because I looked in there and he completely transformed the parking garage into this underground scene of where the Phantom lived. And I saw him hobnobbing and rubbing shoulders with, you know, all the sort of Columbus big wigs. And but I remember in that moment, like thinking, like, this is it. Like there's something different about the way my dad sees the world. Like he could look at this simple parking garage and see this as this beautiful site for this opening, you know, gala for fan of the opera. And that was sort of this. moment. It was this sort of catalyst moment that I realized that he saw the world differently and that that was how I saw the world too. And it was not that it was ⁓ that that I was different anyway. It was just that that's how we sort of function. That's how we breathe. Was we see this world in a different way. So for me it wasn't necessarily like a specific product. It was just understanding that creativity is a is a way you sort of see the world and feel and understand the world. So that's that's kind of my origin story, I guess, if you will. I love that, how he could see the potential and how you realized at such a young age it clicked, you just you got it. And and to be in that moment and to see the before and after transformation. I love that. That's a wonderful illustration. And it makes me actually wonder now. So you have worked across classrooms, museums, you've done research. Where do you feel? What environment do you feel the most alive creatively now? Well, it's probably not the best answer, but honestly, it's anywhere. Because for me, I guess whenever there's something that arises, I'm always looking at the angle of what's possible, what's not being said here. And so I always look at it like my ears are sort of tuned in. I you and I were were talking before we started recording about this idea that like when there's a problem or where there's something that you know is, you know, perplexing other people, like that's all of a sudden where we start seeing our superpowers emerge. Right. So it's almost like in those moments you're like. This is a good example for where I can

use some creative ingenuity there. So it really isn't a specific place like in an art studio or anything like that. It's just really wherever I see a moment to push back and challenge, that's when I start to take it. You know what what what would you say to that? Like what where do you where do you find your most creative spaces? I am similar to you, I think. I really enjoy opportunity. I believe that when you look at the world, not From a lens of judgment, but from curiosity is when the most amazing things happen. It's all about your perspective, how you shift your perspective. A lot of people see issues and problems, but when you see opportunity and possibility, just like your dad saw the potential in that parking garage, I think there's magic. And it reminds me of I heard a saying ⁓ when a child was ⁓ had didn't have anything to do and they were bored and they're like, I'm so bored, I'm bored. I remember saying that at times to my parents. Be bored. That's okay. Let your mind wander at times and and be curious about things. Sometimes in our culture today, I worry it's as soon as you're bored, you automatically grab a device and you go for distraction. And that seems like such a pacifier and it seems like such an obstacle to our creativity because instead of us letting our mind work through wherever it is, it's just being distracted from that by something else that is less satiating and and less good for it to develop that that creativity. Yeah, that I was just talking to some kids the other day and we were talking about, you know, kind of thinking of ideas and things. And ⁓ I told them flat out, I said, you know, there's something right now that you don't even know is stealing your wonder. And they were kind of looking at me weird and I was like, It's stealing it every day. And I just held up a iPad and a device. And it was kind of one of those things where it's like trying to empower students and everybody to realize we're we're kind of ⁓ we're we're losing a little bit of wonder and curiosity if we if we just kind of go, like you said, to reach for something else. And that's one of the biggest key tenets of of what it means to be creative is noticing. Like you mentioned earlier about perspective. It's like noticing the world around us and and and that takes time and it takes. A trained eye to say, like, I'm gonna stop and I'm gonna say, I'm gonna see this the the spaces, the interactions, the relationships that other people are missing right now. And then when I see those things, then I can have interventions take place. And I think that's the power of creativity. And yeah, sometimes we don't realize that some things are stealing our wonder. I love that phrase, stealing our wonder. I'm gonna definitely borrow that from you and I'll give you credit. ⁓ I've heard you describe creativity like a muscle, and it can weaken, like when we're Grabbing a device, an iPad, whatever, instead of using our brains, this muscle. what are the signs that you see when you think someone's creative muscles have atrophied? I think it's when we start seeing a the sort of balance of creativity and then efficiency get out of whack. And I think a lot of times in our society today, it's definitely tilting more towards efficiency and speed. And when you do that, you're sacrificing creative opportunities. You're sacrificing those very things we just mentioned, wonder, noticing, imagination, because those things take time to come to fruition. It's like you ⁓ Christy, I know you know this. Like, you know, those creative ideas come to us when we're not really focusing on them. And that's the time aspect. It's like when you're taking the walk and the idea comes, you're in the shower, you're working out, you're in a long car ride. Those are when those creativity I those creative ideas come because you're stepping away from something. And so for me, when we have a ⁓ society that's so focused on speed and efficiency, then we can't be surprised and we have a lack of creative original ideas. And and there's and and the system is built up to incentivize efficiency and speed. And I think the the moment we can start to push back on that, to recognize that creative ideas are not gonna come ⁓ in the flash of a you know, the flash of a moment, they're gonna take some time to to germinate, to, to get nurtured, ⁓ and grow. And and that's where I see where what's sort of a red flag for me when I see creative muscles that might have atrophied, it's it's when somebody is focusing so much on efficiency and speed that they're losing sight of where the imagination, where the opportunity lies. And and I think that's one of the problems that we're having right now. We're seeing across across all industries and and society in general. ⁓ my goodness. Yes. And you made me think of something. ⁓ I follow the work of IDO with creativity and innovation. And one of the pieces of advice in one of their books ⁓ was about The concept of when you're trying to work on something creative and you're stuck and they say, stop, go outside. Like just leave where you are and walk away from it and go out in nature. Go be curious. Walk around the neighborhood or your town and let your mind wander. Because sometimes we need that little reset or inspiration. And our mind's going to keep working. It's not going to stop because when you're really set on figuring something out, you're still thinking about it when you're sleeping and when you're not focused on it. Our minds are amazing, but that creativity piece that just made me remember that, we can still recharge or kind of spark that creativity if we're feeling a little bit drained, we're feeling like we're hitting a wall. That's another thing. Like we can be curious by just switching not to distraction in a way that's gonna satisfy our brain that feels bored, quote unquote bored, but in a way that's actually going to help us to solve the problem. ⁓ that reminded me of that. That go ahead. No, well, I was

gonna say you see that in schools. I mean, we see that like that's the thing is like when schools we we're we're so focused on speed and efficiency that, you know, we might ask a a child a question, a student a question, and then we want the answer within the next, you know, two minutes. And we don't think about the fact that we should step away from it and let them have time to let it sort of like it'd be so great to have a kid say, you know, I'm not sure yet. Can I come back to this in ⁓ two days? You know, well in traditional schooling we're like, we don't have time for that 'cause we're moving on to the next subject or the next this or that. So Yeah, there's all these little things in our society that sort of erode creativity and and work against it. And I think that's one of the things that I know you're passionate about. I'm I'm as well is how do we push back on that? How do we start making more space for creative minds in our world today? I it makes me think about how ⁓ I'm starting to notice ⁓ with artificial intelligence and technology advancing so rapidly, there are people who are starting to push back. And it's a lot of our younger people too, which really is interesting to me, we talk about digital natives, which I really question that term. I'm not a fan of that term so much, but the fact that they're so used to devices being a part of their world, but they're starting to say, I want something real and human and I want to know if it's been man made or if it's been made by ⁓ a computer artificial intelligence. what are your thoughts on that? I'm curious. I think yeah, I agree a hundred percent. I think we're gonna like one of the things I keep thinking about is if we're gonna have a second definition, a working definition, or ⁓ or a second way to think about creativity, and it would be, you know, sort of machine created and then human created. ⁓ and I and I think one of the reasons why is because we're we're we have so much perfection in our society. And it surrounds us, whether it's a social media feed, whatever else it is, it's just constantly perfect. Perfect. And I think that's why you hear sort of the dismissive ⁓ comment a lot of that well, that's just AI slop because people recognize right away that that's almost too perfect. And they say it's slop, but it's almost like it's too perfect to be done by a human. And I think that we're gonna definitely get to this point where we want that, we want the imperfection. We want that beautifully imperfect ⁓ artifact or relationship or whatever else. Like, you know, it's it's it's like in all aspects of our life, if you have relationships. You can see somebody who maybe went to Chat GPT or one of the AI things to kind of figure out how to say something back to their spouse or their, you know, partner or whatever else about something. And it's like that's still not human. You know, it's kind of admitting there's there's failures and let's talk it through and let's communicate. ⁓ so I I think that we are going to go going to go to that point where it's like it's a balance. It's not getting rid of anything. I think that we all know AI is here and is going to be more and more prevalent. But I think that also we're going to start realizing that as computers, And AI gets better at being AI and computers, humans need to be better at getting humans. You know, they need to be better at humaning. And and I think that's where we'll start to see the the the the true symbiotic relationship of the two. Cause I think it has to be in relationship. ⁓ my goodness, we've got to talk more about this. I'm so interested in what you just said. It's like the intensifying of the technology also should be balanced. Like a yin and yang almost is what I'm envisioning as you said that in my mind. I was thinking about how, yes, and so many other guests I've talked to have really like hinted at how do we create this relationship that is balanced and it's not overtaking or ⁓ outsourcing too much to AI so that we get to be more human with the time we have instead of just faster and faster and less human, which is very scary to a lot of people, myself included. ⁓ Tell me more about your thoughts on that because I love how you said ⁓ more humanness. Is that what you said? More human. More we we need to be better at humaning. Who knows? Humaning, that's what it was. Humaning. I love that phrase. Yeah, I I I I think that I think we're still we're obviously still in sort of exploratory phases with AI. ⁓ I think with kids, my worry is that, you know, that proverb to the fish, the water's invisible. So I worry that if we are too immersed in it, then for for our kid like as adults right now, we can kind of recognize the need of human interaction. But if we don't start to come up with that relationship and that balance and we just sort of let it go and and progress at its pace, what we'll start to see is that kids won't they'll think that that AI interaction is the sort of human y approach that we're talking about because we're not really. Addressing it and and talking about it in thoughtful ways. And I think that's the complexity and nuance of the situation. And we have to, we have to, as a society, whether it's schools or anything else, we can't be afraid to talk about that complexity and nuance. And I think for so often we're in this world where we want the binary, we want the up, down, left, right, you know, right, wrong type thing. And our society is not like that anymore, but we still are perpetuating this myth that it is. And it's until we can start recognizing that. There are complexities to all of this. There are there are points when AI is gonna be way better and we need it way more. And there are points when being a human is gonna be way better. Like we need to find that tension and that balance to be able to navigate it. But if we don't if we don't engage in those conversations, then we're we're gonna miss the point. And I and I think that's where schools

are right now. Schools are currently in that moment. And you've got some schools that are like, Well, let's take all technology away, and other schools are like, Well, let's make AI, you know, ⁓ a thing that the kids can use. And ⁓ I don't see a lot of nuance in the conversations. And that's what worries me. It's got to be a balance. And ⁓ I think the sooner we can kind of come up with that balance, the better it's going to be for everybody. You made me think about so many things with what you just said. ⁓ the first is life is filled with ambiguity. It it's usually things are not black and white. It's just easier to deal with black and white. And a lot of people don't want to take the time to really dig in because, well, like you said, it's not efficient and it's messy. But really that's that's what we should be doing. We we need to navigate this. And I kinda like how you also said something to the effect that this is we're still figuring this out. This is new, giving ourselves grace to be able to not know exactly how it should look. And we've made some mistakes. I think about technology in schools as a great example. We went all in with one-to-one. I I don't know any school that didn't. And even elementary school. And it was a big push. COVID had a lot to do with that. Granted, it wasn't just technology for technology's sake. However, now there's this correction happening where, okay, this was too much. We we realize this is probably not great. Let's pull back a bit. And I'm glad that that ⁓ that pendulum's swinging and correcting itself kind of back in the center. ⁓ but the other point I want to bring up with you that I'm curious your take on this, learning is messy, just like the world is messy, but there's also friction where that that zone of proximal development, I think is the phrase, ZPD, where there's this like just right space where It's the hard enough challenge where you engage with it, you can do it, and it feels great when you get it. And then there's too easy work and then there's too hard work that you're not quite ready for yet. And I worry with AI that sometimes it's a crutch to just get it done as opposed to engaging in the friction. It's work, but it's also very rewarding work. And we know the future of our workforce is going to require people to continue to learn and keep learning. And being curious to me brings joy in life. When you take that away and you make life easy, it's not as rewarding. And I worry about young people who are stuck on a device and it's just very calming and it keeps them busy and they don't want to put in the effort. Because effort to me is a good thing. What are your thoughts on that? Yeah, it's that's a great question. And it's again complex, right? And I think For me, a lot of this is coming down to I I've been really interested in that the whole idea of mattering, right? And and so it's takes it a step further than belonging because we hear a lot about belonging, but mattering is this idea of, you

know, I have value and I can offer value. And I think what we're seeing not just in schools, but in societies, we have a mattering crisis. I mean, just below food and shelter is mattering as a psychological need. And to me, I guess why that pertains to this question is If if students feel that they have value and they're offering value to others, I think that that that innately brings this intrinsic motivation. And I think what is we're kind of missing the mark a little bit on both those in education because we're not really taking to account the students' individual strengths, passions, and interests on a daily basis. And my story for that, how you can measure that is, you know, if you have in schools, you know, a lot of schools will say they're whole child focused and ⁓ but but I'd push back on that because If you look at it from a logistics standpoint, and they might have an ⁓ individual evaluation plan or a 504 plan, they rarely ever invite an art teacher to those meetings. And so if you're talking about that, then then why not? Because if you're talking about that, they might be able to bring a strength and skill set to show that that's that student is succeeding in that we're ignoring. And so then that student is like, Well, how d what is their sense of value? And well, how do they feel like they matter if they feel like what they value isn't really being recognized? And then on the flip side, The other thing that we're sort of messing up in education is we don't create a lot of opportunities for collective learning and for learning that impacts others. ⁓ there might be a situation where we kind of do, you know, like service learning or things that are, you know, in the community which are great. And I would never say no to those. But I also don't think we do enough of what does learning look like to the child to the left and right of me? Instead of focusing so much on that distant goal, how about you focus on the people around you? How do you add value to them? How do we have a collective learning experience? that transcends the individual. And how do we start shifting that focus so that it's not just about ⁓ what you do, but it's about what we do. And I think those issues of that issue of mattering and and if schools can really drill drill down and say, we are going to primarily focus on what the value is, what each child brings to the school, what the beautiful gifts are that they bring to us. And we start there and then we start seeing and helping them realize how those beautiful gifts and passions and interests can impact others around them. I think then we've got a long we we've made some strides. Absolutely. This this is a great time for you to share a little bit about your work that you've done for some time now. ⁓ agents of change. I would love for you to share a little bit about that because when you talk about creativity, civic engagement, ⁓ connecting young people to a purpose and to their their classroom community, their larger

community, the world community, I think That is a great example that people would be very interested to hear about. Yeah. So that it was started in two thousand nineteen, ⁓ at the museum, the Columbus Museum of Art in Columbus, Ohio. And it was basically a a group of a couple teachers that were sort of passionate and they really sort of let their students have as much agency as possible. And and so the students are in charge of their learning. And what we realized was, you know, how do we get this out? How do we help other parents see it? Because The reality is is that we're all sort of frustrated with a system, right? We have ⁓ we have students that can that are showing a lack of engagement right now. We have parents that are sort of at their wits' end about what's going on. We've got teachers that are sort of frustrated with scripted curriculums. ⁓ we've got administration that's kind of balanced balancing it all. We've got ⁓ employers who are saying we're not really getting the kind of employees we need and and colleges are like, you know, so it's kind of up and down, ⁓ up and down the board. And And yet still, you know, things are kind of maintaining the status quo. And I I think that when we have that, when we have these kids that are and and the system's kind of against it, what what we need is a different argument and a diff a different narrative. Mm-hmm. And I think what what parents and ⁓ would want is they would want something different. I think there's this collective illusion that they that they want standardized testing. And the only reason why they say it is because It's this sort of cycle. Districts say, here's our test results because we think parents want it. And parents say, Well, I think I need test results because that's what everybody else says. But the reality is they want something different. They just don't know how to articulate it. So the Ain't to Change Festival is this chance to show parents what deeper learning looks like, to show parents what kids that are in charge of their learning looks like. And so it crosses boundaries. It's not specific to one district. It's inviting teachers. We've had last year and and coming up and the next week, we'll have first graders, we'll have six year old six-year-olds there next to students in the ⁓ international baccalaureate programs at the high schools, you know, so you're talking about eighteen year old kids and all in between. And so the parents can go there and and see their child and and being illuminated in this light of, you know, see their intellectual capacity on stage and in in a community s ⁓ forum. But then they'll also be able to travel around to see what are other kids doing in other classes. And the h the hope is is that not only does it empower these students in these positions of ⁓ with an authentic audience, but also helps give parents a ⁓ talking points to articulate, that's what I want. I want my kid to feel passionate. I want my kid to feel a sense of agency. I

want them to feel empowered and help them to be able to go back to schools and districts and say, I want more of that. I don't necessarily want more standardized testing. I want more empowered learning. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And the other thing that I think about is when we celebrate students' learning, it reinforces it is valuable. This is worth Spending time bringing in people like you mentioned, the authentic audience. When we spend time on something, kids know it matters and they matter. And it's not just a polished, finished product, it's them explaining what they've done and talking about it and having conversations. I've gotten the opportunity to attend several times. Always a good time to hear directly from young people. And I've I talked to elementary kids and high school kids when I've attended across the spectrum. They're all doing really cool stuff that they're excited about. You see the spark, and that is that spark you want in every person when they're excited about learning. Because we know we're educators by training. And that's the thing that lights us up too when you see someone else get it and love something and be able to articulate what they've learned. I I'm curious if you can think of some examples of the types of projects or learning that students have shared about. Does anything pop in your mind ⁓ that you could share? So people who are listening get an idea. I'll definitely link the website into the show notes, but if you could share just maybe a couple examples about what that looks like. Yeah, sure. It's it's it's very interesting because it's all over the board, right? So it's called agents of change because in some capacity the students the students are agents change because they're sort of designing their own learning experience. So we've had ⁓ a variety of things. We had there's a program in Columbus called Erase the Space, which the whole concept of it is getting two schools together that maybe aren't in the same ⁓ aren't in the same district, but ⁓ cross districts to kind of meet and kind of ⁓ do some exploratory learning together. And so we've had one situation where they came and and shared what they had done together, which was this really powerful experience. ⁓ and specifically they were talking about ⁓ the role of Columbus's identity. How do we change Columbus's identity? And so they were sort of tasked with that and they went to The Columbus Housing Authority and did presentations on it. So they're going to be there to share. We've got first graders sharing their ripple maker project of how they're ripple makers, right? So you've got a whole gamut. We had, I remember one year and we had students that kind of created ⁓ artwork and and poetry and and whatnot about ⁓ their things that were interesting, things that like sort of major things were happening in their lives. And it was kind it was kind of this idea of like this leadership type project. And they wanted to share. sort of their origin stories kind of to

be a leader. And we I remember one specific artist ⁓ was creating their piece of art and their this specific aspect talked about their their lives at home and the current moment and to show sort of where they're coming from. And they had this piece of art, this beautiful piece of art that had like this road that had diverge and there were two people on the path going in separate directions and there was all these intricate details and it was three dimensional is beautiful. And the child was there that night and and the mother came up And me and the other teacher kind stood back and watched, and we s noticed that they both had started crying. So right away we were like, Well, this is either gonna be really powerful or we're both gonna get fired. Who knows? luckily it was powerful. And what happened was was that the mother had taken a job that she hadn't had for a while and she was gone a lot. And this girl was saying how she feels distant from her mother now. And so they were both sort of crying about that. And the mother came up and said, Thank you so much for this project because I wouldn't have known this. hadn't mu had this experience not happened. And so it's situations like that that like those are powerful learning experiences. That's not on a standardized test. And that's the kind of thing that and so when you create that and it goes back to that mattering where that child felt like she mattered. She felt like what her story was had value and she offered that to her mother, which also then had value in return. And so it changed that whole relationship. So those are the types of like powerful learning experiences that can happen when you let kids take charge of the learning. Mm-hmm. That is a beautiful story. ⁓ you mentioned the erase the space project, ⁓ that group, the collaborative, and that I remember reading an article about them recently, how the young people shared and they had an authentic audience too. They had ⁓ leaders and things from the community that were listening to them, and they were the article mentioned them talking about the lack of third spaces for teenagers. And this breaks my heart. They were saying that they're on their phones a lot because that's a way they can be together and communicate with each other. And there's not a lot of places they can just hang out. And I'd not thought about that from their perspective. And when I did, I realized there really aren't. There are public places like parks, but that's in good weather. And they have to be able to, you know, get there, depending on if there's one near their home or not. Libraries are wonderful for that. They have limited hours. And sometimes, you know, it's if it's a quiet space, they're not just able to hang out, hang out. ⁓ and not everyone has you know, a close by rec center or other place, there's just not a lot of options. It's teenagers are sometimes seen as problems and loitering, but they want to be physically together and hang out. They don't want to just be on their screens, which is sometimes what people think when they see them on their phones. ⁓ they're just always on their devices. They want human connection too, which is powerful. And that group, how amazing for them to get together with students they didn't know and they all agreed on this. From different communities and not knowing each other. This what came out of the discussion, I remember. Yeah. And having those like having those opportunities like that, you know, third spaces and and ages of change could be like that too that night. And 'cause what it is is it goes back to that idea of like Steven Johnson wrote a book called Where Do Good Ideas Come From. And one of the things he talks about specifically is the Enlightenment period and how the coffee house and the Enlightenment period was this this beautiful era that brought all these ⁓ amazing thinkers together as they're sipping coffee. over the time and sharing ideas, all of a sudden these new ideas are starting to pop up because these got ideas are colliding. And that's this idea of third spaces. You know, when you have these third spaces and kids are together just kind of talking and whatever else, things come from that. You know, and I and I think when we take those away or those opportunities, you know, even on a a simple level of just having more play, you know, having more unstructured play for kids. Those are all elements that boost creativity and we're slowly eroding those because we're overscheduling our kids. We're we're enrolling them in too many ⁓ sports camps or or things like that that really are beyond what what's necessary. And we're taking away that opportunity for them to learn what it means to be independent, to be a problem solver, to be curious, ⁓ to have disagreements and solve them. And and and the more we can step out of the way, the more they can start having those creative ideas come. So yeah, those third spaces, I was the same way you are. It really blew me away by thinking about like when we were kids, we had those, and now they are going away. And when they try to go to some of these places, unfortunately they're getting sort of stereotyped and already being sort of pre-banned when they see a group of middle school boys or girls coming together like, okay, no, right away you're not allowed in. And so we don't understand like the consequences of that and and how that it's these little things, it's the short sightedness that really destroys creativity, connection, community, all those things that we're really thri we we really want to have flourish right now. Well, Lynn, let's talk about that. What do you think are the conditions that ⁓ need to be in place for creative minds to flourish. Can you think about some specific things that that pop into your mind for that? Yeah, I would say for me it's kind of there's some basic ones. You know, safety is a huge one, right? Safety, the psychological safety, because ultimately what creativity means is you're

taking a risk. You're challenging the status quo. You're breaking the norms and that takes safety. And that and once you get that, you get you build more and more creative confidence where you're more and more likely to to sort of challenge those rules. But if you don't have a safety baseline and what that looks like in schools or anywhere else, it starts with relationships. If you don't have a meaningful relationship, then people are going to feel afraid to kind of take that risk. I also think it's a little bit of ⁓ constraints. I think that's another one that people forget is that creativity is not about like, it always kind of pains me when somebody's like, I don't know, just go be creative. That doesn't help. That overwhelms people, you know? You need to give some hardcore parameters because really creativity happens inside the box, not outside of it. And I think that's one of the misconceptions. ⁓ and I also think, you know, obviously we know time, but also value. That's another thing. You know, it's that goes back to that idea of mattering, is when we know that our creativity is valued, it's gonna it's gonna start compounding, right? We're gonna start adding more and more of it. We're gonna we're gonna feel more and more comfortable to do that and and to march the beat of our own drum and ⁓ to kind of go it go down that path less traveled. So I think those are some of the basic things I would see ⁓ that I think help it flo flourish. But What do you think? What are some things you think that needs to be there? Well, you made me remember one of my favorite books. I've actually owned multiple copies because I end up giving it to people loaning it, and then it just never comes back because it's so good. ⁓ you mentioned the phrase creative confidence, and that's the name of the book by I think David and Tom Kelly. ⁓ they're also Stanford D School. That's where they're they started that ⁓ organization. And the concept of Having lots of ideas, I think, is really important to creativity. and I want to come back also to something you said about safety. So don't let me forget that. But on the tangent of having lots of ideas, when people think of creativity, sometimes they expect the creative person to just come up with the solution right away, like it's some kind of magic skill. Just like if you've that people find out that, You you you've done art before, you're an artist or you're an art teacher, that you're all of a sudden gonna just draw them this amazing portrait that they're gonna put on their wall, like, ⁓ well, you're gifted at doing that, right? That's all you do. No, that is not how it works. But with creativity, sometimes it takes hundreds of ideas to get to the good one. And the failing part about a lot of them are horrible and that's okay. But to be safe in an environment and be able to have lots of bad ideas before you get to the good one and to have that. fun back and forth with other people where you feel safe enough to throw something out and put it on the table and let it be the idea, not your idea, just an idea. I think is so important to the creative process and often overlooked, in addition to what you already mentioned and kind of building on that. Because if you don't feel safe, you're definitely not going to take risks. You're not going to raise your hand. I was that kid in school. I wasn't raising my hand to answer and I missed out on a lot of valuable learning because If the space was safe, I would have shared. I would have been okay being wrong. I wish in our schools and in our workplaces being wrong was normalized. I think that is how we really grow is when we fail. And it's not really failing, but it's learning. ⁓ you're not a failure if you're failing. You're not trying hard enough if you're not failing. So I think those are things I remind myself the older I get and the more I try to encourage and model with people around me. ⁓ so those and and think about workplace cultures and how you want employees with brilliant ideas that are comfortable coming forth and sharing them, but if they don't feel comfortable and safe doing that, you're missing out. Your your organization is not gonna be as strong as it could be if you don't have that security. Yeah, no, I agree with that. It's like it's like, you know, talking about that workplace, you know, if you think about things that are, you know, killing creativity, right? There's a lot of those things you're talking about and ⁓ like in the industry, you know, we or or anywhere, you know, that reframe of be creative and then just hope they kind of figure it out. It's like the same thing as if I went to the hospital and I was sick and I said to the doctor, I don't know, be scientific. Like that's not gonna work, right? Like they need they need to know. They need to figure out like what you need to tell me what what what you're what you're looking for. Right. So I think that's one, but but the other thing that I think can kill creativity, like we said, is is that you know efficiency, the efficiency balance, if the efficiency balance is out of whack, then you can't be surprised and you have a lack of creativity and innovation happening. But if we truly are are serious about developing creativity, then we've got to think about like what goes into it. So if we sit there and we say that like one of the elements of creativity is noticing, then you should be doing things to to help sharpen the noticing tools. You know, you should be if as an industry, you should be going down to the the local museum. You should go to the local local museum. You should be having things to look for. What are you noticing right now? You should be taking noticing stroll, you know, even if it's as simple as like, let's take our team out, let's notice all the things we see today that are red when we go outside on a walk. Those are little things that can be dismissed as wasting of time, or they can be seen from some people as these are

sharpening the skills that creative minds need. And I think we too often, again, going back to efficiency, we fail to see that if you want creative thinkers, you can't just say be creative, like you wouldn't say be scientific. You've got to say, what is it we mean we be creative? We want you to connect dots. We want you to be observant. We want you to notice. We want you to be curious. Okay, then let's practice those things. And I think that carries, whether it's school or industry or anywhere, we've got to be really explicit on what these dispositions we want to practice and start doing it more. ⁓ my goodness, this is exciting because you're making me also think about something that often ⁓ is seen as an opposite. So when we say creativity and efficiency, they're seen almost as opposites, but being creative, as you mentioned. It is not that anything is creative. It's you have parameters, it's inside the box, but you're working within those constraints. And it makes me think about how when you facilitate creative problem solving, when you're facilitating design thinking, human-centered design thinking, which we're fans of. This is good stuff. You have constraints, you have a process. It is not let's all go in a room and just spitball. That's what people think being creative is or brainstorming really. There can be some efficiency in that, meaning there's a structure. And I think about when you are doing design thinking and you have a process and you diverge and you you diverge with your thinking first. You go broad. You think of lots and lots and lots of ideas. You don't stop there, you then converge. You come in and you pick out the best ideas of those ideas, which is usually not that hard. And then you test some things, but then You go back out and you can diverge again and then you can come back in. It is a process of iterating, prototyping, ⁓ redesigning as you go that gets you to that idea. It is not some willy-nilly, let's all just get creative and and go on a retreat and we're gonna come up with great ideas without having the structure. You need to still have your constraints and you also, I think you mentioned something along the lines of clarity. Clarity matters. And I think these are things that often people who haven't had these experiences yet don't realize that creativity as a using used for problem solving and innovation is actually a structured thing with clarity that comes from it. Would you agree with that? Yeah, because I think w w I love what you're saying too about the creativity and efficiency. Cause yeah, it's one of those things that it is how you frame it because If you take the time to think about what goes into the creative process, then you will be efficient with the solutions and the innovations that come later. But if you skip it and you're wanting you're trying to be efficient about the ideas, you're you're gonna realize you're not getting anywhere. Right. Right. You can't you can't skip the broadening, the divergent

thinking, the many possibilities. You can't skip that part. A lot of times I've been in situations where I've been in a meeting and we've got an hour, we're gonna figure this out. And 10 minutes in, someone says an idea and it's like, okay, let's go with that. And that's it. And you might move on to something else, or somebody's gonna go run with that without testing it, without iterating, without getting feedback, without considering other possibilities. And I think that's so dangerous. If we go ahead. You've got the creative person in that room that didn't even get started thinking yet. Now it's over. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Exactly. That kills. Creativity. We think we have a solution. Yeah, you have a solution. Definitely not the best solution. If you even thought of, you know, 30 things and you stopped at number three, that was a mistake. Right. So hopefully th maybe that will inspire someone listening to push a little further in that in in that conversation or look at some of the really awesome frameworks for navigating problem solving and using design thinking ⁓ in their work. Cause it can be used in any field. It really is versatile and impactful too in any industry. Right. ⁓ so I'm wondering, do you think that we've underestimated creativity as a tool for real-world complex problem solving? Because a lot of times it feels like we want to say like creativity and innovation is for someone else, or we don't have time for that. We have to stick with what works and tradition and we know this works. We don't have time for that. ⁓ that's not safe. How do you what do you how do you think about that? Yeah, I think for sure. I I think we've underestimated, you know, partly because of what we were mentioning earlier with the efficiency focus. ⁓ but the other thing is I think that we've marginalized the types of thinking thinkers that we need when these problems become complex. And and what the artist, the designer, the creative, the neurodivergent amongst us, what what they bring to it is they bring the lens we need right now because When we have complex problems that need connections, that's how other brains work. Right. And so leaning into those to see what how what we can learn from those different types of thinkers and how we can bring that into to our own ⁓ thinking styles, I think would be huge because I think that if we do have these complex problems, we need as many different brains as we can thinking about them. And and not only that, but also just this idea of seeing seeing the connections that other people other people miss. But also they bring something other that that sometimes is missing is we we ignore like sort of the emotion and the expression behind some of these problems. And I think that's another thing that that ⁓ is unfortunate because when you're talking about any sort of problem, behind it is emotion, behind it is expression. And I think tell sometimes we get people that sort of are maybe more linear in their thinking and and sort of hyper focused on the efficiency of it, that they don't take into account that. And when you don't take into account the efficiency the expression and the emotion behind it, then solutions won't stick. Because they don't feel like that they're they don't feel like they're sort of well rounded enough to see w what's going to happen on the other side of it. There there's a ⁓ there is a brilliant researcher named Helene Mordino Yang, and she writes a lot about the idea of emotion and learning. And one of the things that she talks about is that wherever, you know, you can usually track where learning's happening, where there's emotion, good or bad. And the example that I'll that I'll use for my in my own family is my daughter. ⁓ my daughter has eight ⁓ has ADHD, was diagnosed with ADHD, and she's ⁓ brilliant and and and she does so many amazing things. And and I noticed that like at high school when she comes home, there'd be some times when she would be crying after after she went upstairs her bedroom and and I kind of asked her why and it was because there was this homework she had missed, there was this or that and the teacher this or that. And so I realized in that moment that her emotion was tied to the structure of the class and had nothing to do with the content. So what she was learning there was how to play the game of school. It wasn't about the content. And so I think that's the thing with these problems and and real world issues, if we don't think about the emotion behind them, then we're not truly learning how to address the problem. We're just making it performative. And so I think that's what these that's what creative minds bring is they bring this hyper attention. They they see and feel the world in 4K, right? They they see it and they feel it on a level that ⁓ is just i is out of this world. And and so I think if we can lean into the idea of like what is the what is the emotional and the expressive aspects of this problem, I think then we can start to see and and figure out how to tackle it. So I do think we underestimate that aspect of creativity a lot when we're talking about solving real world complex problems. You had a beautiful post about individuals who are neurodivergent and how we need to make them a part of the team and decisions and and the the the gift, the the value they bring to those conversations. I know I've got ⁓ half my family is neurodivergent and it's amazing when we the the ⁓ two people in my family are not and sometimes just we don't stop talking. And it's better when we do because ⁓ when you make space. For cognitive diversity, you really come up with better, new, amazing ideas and solutions. And on teams in schools, everywhere, cognitive diversity means making space intentionally to hear all voices and perspectives, creating processes for classroom conversations, for boardroom meetings, for ⁓ group project work, for teams to be able To leverage the strengths of all of those on the team. And if folks are

sitting in a room and they're not a part of it, they're not adding their value. And it goes back to what you said earlier in our conversation about mattering. Mattering is so essential to our society. And when we start to have that cognitive diversity be prioritized, it is again gonna lift up all of us. It is good for everyone. So folks can check out your post and read up on that. And I think it's Such ⁓ it's it right now I'm hearing more and more about that and I'm so thrilled because I think for too long people have been quiet. And I know I've learned to be a better listener from my family members. ⁓ listening is a superpower, and the more we can learn from each other and with each other, the better off we're all gonna be. So I'm so glad that that you're also lifting that conversation up so people are paying attention and engaging with that. ⁓ it's really, really important. ⁓ that makes me think about some other initiatives that you've worked with where education is getting creativity right. We have some powerful movements happening right now. ⁓ there's one called the Human Restoration Project that's really doing some good work. ⁓ what ⁓ what kinds of things do you think you can point out? Agents of change is another one. You've already shared about that. ⁓ what are some things happening that you think we're doing well that we should start? putting more time and attention into an education right now. Well, ⁓ it's sometimes it feels like nowhere at times in some of these systems because we're marginalizing it. But I do think that, you know, as the as the the artist in me, ⁓ I think where we're doing it right is in our arts classes. We're doing it right on the periphery of education. ⁓ we're doing it in our in our drama classes, in our dance classes. And I think we've still marginalized those disciplines in the schools. at a time when these are what's needed. So th those are the disciplines that are needed so much. And it's because of all the things we mentioned. They see the world in a different way. They notice. They are comfortable with ambiguity. They're playful. They're curious. They ask more questions than answers. Those are the things we need to lean into. And and I would love to see more schools sort of prioritize those. You know, even we can see it every day how it's eroded because it you know, there's a lot of times we'll report to core content areas. And there's just an assumption that the arts are outside of those core content areas. And the reality is those core content areas are tested areas. And I think if we want to start challenging that, we've got to start looking in where these where the types of thinkers our world's gonna need are thriving and they're thriving in those arts classes. I know there's a book called ⁓ In Search of Deeper Learning by ⁓ Professor Jahl Meta and Sarah Fine. And they did a tour over fifteen hundred schools ⁓ across the country in search of deeper learning. And what they said was sadly they didn't find it very much, what they were hoping to, but where they said they did see it was on what they called the periphery of education. So it was in the arts courses, the drama courses, any sort of outdoor athletic fields, all of those areas. And what they said was because there was so much agency that was happening, the students were in charge of their own sort of learning process, what that looked like. And again, we can dismiss it to say, well, they're learning to play a sport they're learning to paint. That's not going to carry them very far. But when you say that, you dismiss what the process was that went into that. You you dismiss the the the nuance of how did they learn that? What was the specific thing? They asked questions, they took they they risked, they took risks, they had failure like you were mentioned earlier, and they they came over it. They had an authentic audience to perform for. Those are all things that are so vital and will help kids grow to the to to be the types of humans our world needs. But we still kind of marginalize those. So I think for me where I where I think that they're fr thriving right now is the place they've always thrived. And I think it's in the arts. And I think what we need to start doing more of is start advocating for those to become front and center and to become no longer electives, but requirements. Requirements for not just for college and career, but for the type of hum the type of societies we all want to live in. We need those we need more people that think like artists and designers in in positions of power in our world to really see the whole picture. That's what these artists do. Artists have this beautiful ability to see the whole picture. And that's why when, you know, they ask Steve Jobs what, you know, what is creativity? And he's like, it's nothing really. It's just connecting the dots. It's sort of a flippant answer, but it's true. I mean, it's this idea to step back and see the connections other people miss. And I think that's where we're seeing that right now is in the arts more than ever. And and how do we uplift and illuminate and advocate for for more arts courses in our schools. You make me think about The way that we silo subjects and content in schools and how it makes sense for efficiency, back to that word, but it doesn't make sense for learning because that doesn't reflect how our world is. We don't talk about subjects in isolation. I don't know many jobs where you're just focused on one minute skill set that you're practicing over and over again that doesn't connect throughout your work. And I think about the arts and how They're everywhere. They weave through everything and in every room we're in, and every environment, in every space. They're there if you're looking for them. And it's not something that is separate. It's who we are as a society and it it documents that. You think about history as an example. When you look through history books or documentation, or you go to

places, the arts are absolutely woven through all of those. It is not a separate thing. We just like to pull out and make things separate because it's tidy and we can quantify it, measure it, and we can teach it in that way, but it is not how the world works. The best classes I've seen are the ones that are cross-curricular and integrated across content areas. So you see how the world works in real life. And it doesn't it feels real and it feels more powerful and more valuable to students and they get it. ⁓ when Teachers talk across subject areas or across grade levels and they collaborate on something important and they pull in something from the community, all of a sudden it's fun and kids are engaged. And sometimes I think we it's more work sometimes because it's it's not scripted, it's not, it's not something you've done 16 times. It's something that does require a little bit more effort. But I I would I would wager that the educators also get more out of that. Because they get to work with their colleagues. They're looking at learning through a different lens. And the more we can do that, I think the better off kids in schools are, where it then we're not fighting like for one area over another. It's all learning. It all has a place. And we've probably gone too far with some of what we call our core subjects. Our core subjects cross over into the arts. We're just pulling them apart because we just want to drill that one thing. But We know kids are we're having attendance issues in school. It's we're we're trying to address ⁓ the symptoms and not the core root, like you mentioned, with giving students agency, giving them control over things they're learning about, letting them have authentic audiences, showing them the value of learning and meaningful projects that matter, that connect the dots. Back to what you said. ⁓ I really I think there's an opportunity there for schools nowadays. Yeah, I think that's the the artists are the they're the brave ones who they go to the edge and they pull us, they propel us forward. And that's what it's always been the case. Artists are always the ones who take the risks and they have the freedom to sort of go where nobody else is willing to go. And once they get out there and show everybody it's safe, then we all sort of follow them. And that's what we need more of because we're at this point now in our society where, you know, I keep thinking about this term beyond the edge. We're beyond the edge because we're we really reach the the sort of the edge of all the systems we've had in place for so long for a variety of reasons, whether it's AI, whether it's any other issues that are happening, we need we're entering an era where we need to be thinking about possibilities and not predictions, like not predictability but possibility. And again, that's where those artists and creatives come in. That's why they're going to thrive in this next era because it's going to be we're we're going to be putting it together as we go. And and like to your point about having, you know, areas that are crossing disciplines, when you do that and you have sort of a You know, you have sort of a north star, but it's still emergent. You're still letting those those people sort of come up with it. It's you're you're empowering those artists and those creatives in your class to say, like, we don't have the specific answer. Let's go down this, let's go down this path and see where it takes us. And if we branch off another path, we'll we'll go there. But it's moving away from the predictability of like this is how things have to go to what if? Imagine if, what could happen if we do this? You know, and I think that's where we need to be more of in our schools and in our world. Absolutely. I'm curious, Jason, can you think about maybe someone's listening and and says, I'm not creative. They're that that's not for me. Like I just I don't do that. ⁓ what would be your response to them? I think they are. It's just atrophied. And I think what it part of it is is that creative confidence. And I I think once you start to realize what elements go into it, you can help anybody start to tap into that creativity again. If you start saying, like we said earlier, if you start saying, like, let's talk about noticing and what does that mean? How many times you notice, you know, how many times you notice what's happening in the day, how many times you notice this or that, or when you're going on a walk or whatever, you're A tuning that set. And when you do that to somebody, all of a sudden they're it's building that creative confidence back, you know, because you're seeing opportunities to express an idea, you're seeing opportunities to ask a question that wasn't asked. ⁓ if it's being playful, right? You know, you can enter playfulness back into it. You know, you talk about like at a dinner table, you know, well, if somebody's cooking dinner, why not say, let's see what kind of ⁓ hats we can turn our napkins into? Let's do that before the dinner starts. It's those little playful routines that can start to build that creative confidence. So I think it's Everybody is born creative. It's just for some of us it's it's ⁓ it still thrives and others it doesn't. You it's that idea of the flowers, right? The dandelion and the orchid. You know, most of us in this world are or are danielines with creativity and and or or or are you and I, Christy, I'd say are our daniel lines and and those are the people who are creatives who will grow no matter where, you know, no matter where the space is, whether there's light or darkness, they're gonna grow. You you can't hold us back. Grow in cracks in the sidewalks anywhere else. But most of us out there are orchids and they require sort of tending, nurturing. And what that looks like in reality is if you go up to somebody and make some sort of dismissive comment when they're showing you something, let's say a child is showing you a picture and you're kind

of like, that's cute, you know, walk away and you don't really say anything about it. It's those little moments to sort of show where you value. And if they sit there and they feel like you're sort of dismissing what they're showing you, then it's like, okay, then my message I'm being sent is that this is not really a value to my family or whatever else. And and those those orchids then slowly wield away an atrophy. So the what we need to be doing is realizing that every day we come in contact with somebody else, we are going to either help nurture or destroy their creativity in some respects. And it sounds sort of like a a bold statement, but it's true. I mean, however we respond to somebody, a child or an adult, when they're showing us something or when they're asking us for a feedback or anything else, we actually contribute to their creative confidence. So I think we should be we should be mu cognizant of that when when somebody's coming up and Sharing an idea or what is how are we going to hold that idea? How are we going to to honor that and and give feedback that's meaningful, but also sort of cherish the fact that they are taking those risks and and helping them to build that creative confidence to take more risks in the future? I'm so glad you brought that up. I think this would be a great opportunity to share some phrases we can give people when someone, whether it's a child, your your own child, your niece, your nephew, your grandchild, it could be a colleague bringing you an idea. It could be someone who reports to you who has an idea. ⁓ what would be in your mind some good phrases instead of, ⁓ that's great. Yeah, thanks. ⁓ good job. That's that's pretty. That's nice, whatever. What would be better phrases that folks could use to encourage creativity and get more of it back from these people and build their confidence? Yeah, I think one of the first things is just that idea of, you know, always asking about, you know, tell what tell me more about this. Tell me what what was the what were you thinking when you created this? Those types of things. And then I think the other element that we sort of ⁓ s fall short on is is the next step. What if what if we ask them like, ⁓ what happens if you do this? What happens when you add this? What happens if you took this away? Adding some sort of nudge to have the creativity keep going. And I I know I'll see that in the classroom is that there's a lot of kids that might come up to me and and ⁓ maybe are stuck for ideas. And all I'll do is just sort of provide that little nudge of those statements of what happens if you add this or what what if you use this or what if you and all of a sudden it it it opens that door, that sort of block that they had. I think that's true with us as adults too, because what that does is it it honors again, it values what they've created, but it also says, What if you go further? What if you what if you take that creative confidence that you now found and take it even further and and don't let it stop there? And then they start building the idea of like, ⁓ creative ideas don't have to stop. There, there's a Painter named Paul Gardner who once said, I love this quote, he said, A painting is never finished, it just stops at interesting points. And I think that's such a true statement for life and learning in general. Learning never stops, you know, it's never over. We've never arrived. It just pauses, right? It just there's different different points. And I think that's where we need to start thinking about for our kids is how do we encourage them to go further and how do we offer those nudges by saying, What if you did this? Imagine if you added that, you know, and see and see where their where their imagination takes them. What would you say? What are some of your phrases? Well, I agree. I often will say, Well, tell me more about that and and what made you say that or think that or do that. I think curiosity, I think how you respond matters. When someone comes up and says, What do you think of this? They're asking a question that feels like a judgment question. They want to know good, bad, you like it, you don't. Approval, disapproval. But I really I don't think that's actually a good thing. I I really think it they should decide how they feel about it. But they they might want your feedback because they care about you and your relationship. And I think that's what you need to focus on. So it's not judgment, but curiosity. ⁓ and I think there's a lot of ways that you can do that. It there's not one response, but I think it's important to just show that what they think about it matters. And then the other thing I've done as an adult and as a ⁓ as as I've been a a a supervisor or a leader in different roles. Is I'll ask, do you want feedback? Because it's very different. ⁓ some people truly do want feedback. I love feedback. Feedback is a gift, but if someone's not ready for it, it hurts. It's an insult. It doesn't help. But if they want it, if someone's coming to you and saying, What do you think? and they want to make it better, which is a great thing, then you can say, Well, have you thought about? Or I wonder, or what if? How might you? And I think those phrases are really great, adult or child. But it's sort of like the permission to share that. And sometimes they'll say, ⁓ no, I no, I don't need feedback. I just wanted to show it to you. Okay, great. Well, thank you for sharing that. Right. There's so many ways we can respond if we're careful with our words that can build people up regardless of age and get more of those interactions. ⁓ and then they'll do the same for others and for us too. I love that. Yeah, that's so that's such a great point. Yeah. So I'm curious. We're getting to the end of our show here. ⁓ I'm you've spent your whole career helping others unlock creativity to nurture creativity. what has creativity given you? ⁓ it's given me a lot. It's given me so much. I I would say this is ⁓

something that that I'll talk about talk about ⁓ quite a bit because it was impactful for me, but it it's again goes back to my father and ⁓ my father was my sort of creativity cheerleader all through life. Like he never he was the one that was always going against the grain and always pushing back and He I remember ⁓ a couple years ago, unfortunately in two thousand seventeen, he was diagnosed with ⁓ cancer and passed away in four weeks. So it was sort of devastating for us. And I remember going to his house ⁓ in he was in Arizona, going to his house in Arizona, ⁓ staying with him and just having these long conversations. And one of the things that he told me was how much he loved Leonard Cohen. And he loved his his his poetry and his music. And specifically there was a line that stood out about ⁓ there's a crack in everything, that's how the light gets in. And that really just stuck with me. And the reason why it stuck with me was because it's one of those things where I see this perfection obsession in our society. And we we tend to patch over cracks as fast as we can. And What he gave to me in that moment was this idea of noticing that when we see cracks, instead of patching over them and trying to push people along and say there's nothing to see here, what if we tore down what was there? What if what if we tore back what those cracks were? Because those cracks are something trying to get out. And in education, for me, I see those cracks as the students saying, This system is not working for me anymore. Don't patch over it, don't silence me, don't try to ignore me, don't try to walk by me. Instead, we need to be the ones who go in there and say, Let's peel it down too, let's tear it down and let's figure out how to rebuild this. But it's just how I j and generally I look at life now is that when there are cracks and imperfections, embrace them, right? And figure out how you can tear them apart. It's like that whole art of Kinsakuro, you know, having something's made more beautiful having once been broken. And I think that's we need to realize as a society is that when things are broken, it's an opportunity. It's not it's not a time to get down and and and kind of woe is me about the system. It's time that it's a beautiful moment to say, okay, let's put it back together, make it more beautiful for having once been broken. And that's sort of where I think what creativity has given me is it's just given me a a perspective, like you said at the beginning, it's giving me a perspective on life that makes it more beautiful. It it makes it more emotional. I mean, there are ups and downs, there are goods and and there are good moments and there are bad moments, but I I feel the world at a stronger fo ⁓ stronger rate. And I would never give that up for anything. And I and I know that that's from the artist mindset that that I've been able to have and that I know my dad always helped me grow as well. So that's where I think one of the things it's given

me. Mm, that's a beautiful story. And your dad sounds like an amazing he's an amazing man. Really inspirational. I'm sorry he's not with us anymore, but I'm really glad that you've shared that story because it will probably impact a lot of people. It's beautiful. ⁓ Okay. So we're gonna move on to our rapid fire. Just a couple quick questions to close out this episode. ⁓ I'm curious that who inspires you nowadays? Or it could be over time. It could be someone from a long time ago. I know you mentioned your dad besides him. Yeah, I I I there's so many people. I I we that'd be a whole other podcast. I would say if I thought if I thought of ⁓ a specific I ⁓ I would think of a specific place and it would be one where I would love to be able to go to school and to live and to be. And it was a place called Black Mountain College. Are you familiar with that? No, tell me. Okay, so you have to go look it up. So Black Mountain College, I was ups I've I've been obsessed with Black Mountain College since I first found out about it. It was an experimental college in the in ⁓ the thirties. It was only around for twenty years from the thirties to the fifties. In Black Mountain, North Carolina, some of the most influential, beautiful, amazing artists, poets, dancers from our time went to school there. And it was a self-sustaining college. They designed the curriculum. They lived on the campus. They created the food. They washed the dishes. It was just this beautiful space and it was this communal living that I I would love It it just inspires me every day. They you know, the geodesic dome came from there from ⁓ Buckminster Fuller, the hap first happenings happened there. It's just I have the there was an exhibition. The reason why I love it is because there's an exhibition. I've got a beautiful catalog book from it, but it was at the Wexter Center for a while. But ⁓ just this progressive college in the middle of the ash the Blue Ridge Mountains, and it just seems like an amazing place. So that's definitely place that always inspires me. I went to go visit it a year's back and it still has some of the frescoes on the walls there. It's just It's amazing place. Anybody out there should look it up and just explore a little bit about Black Mountain College. It was amazing. Fantastic recommendation. Do you have a recent book or podcast or video that you would recommend we check out? ⁓ just recently finished The Creative Act by Rick Rubin. Highly recommend that. Definitely underscores a lot of what we've just talked about today. So it's a great book. Yes. And lastly, what are you curious about right now? ⁓ I am curious how to start my own school and how to find funding for it. So anybody out there that's thinking about that, let's figure out the solution to this. That's what I really want to do. Sounds like we have a project to talk about. Yeah. Yes. Jason Blair, it has been so amazing talking with you. Thank you for your time. This is fabulous. Thank you, Christy. I love it. I always will listen to this podcast. It's great. So thank you for having me on. thank you, Jason. Thanks for listening to Innovate Where You Are. Check the show notes for links and resources from today's conversation. If you'd like to support the podcast, you can do that at buymeacoffee.com forward slash Christy Venny. Until next time.