התמלול המלא של Is Our Compassion Making Poverty Worse? | Part 1

00:03:58.719 Thank you for for listening. 00:03:58.800 --> 00:03:59.919 We're so grateful. 00:04:00.159 --> 00:04:17.519 And um, you know, I I would say that I really hope that this is edifying and encouraging and beneficial to you and to uh to to hold fast to God's word and to love it, love it and apply it to your life. 00:04:17.680 --> 00:04:18.160 Yeah. 00:04:18.560 --> 00:04:19.519 There we go. 00:04:20.480 --> 00:04:26.959 Uh speaking of applying the word to your life, uh, today's topic is something we've talked about on the show since I think day one. 00:04:27.120 --> 00:04:42.240 This is one of the core topics of what we talk about here on Ideas Have Consequences, because it is really at the heart of our ministry, the Disciple Nations Alliance, the question of how Christians can more effectively and practically help those who are experiencing poverty around us. 00:04:42.399 --> 00:04:52.079 Uh, the Disciple Nations Alliance background comes out of Relief and Development Ministries that, Dad, you were a part of, Darrow, Bob, the founders of the Disciple Nations Alliance. 00:04:52.319 --> 00:05:03.920 All of you guys have years and years and years of experience uh traveling around the world to some of the most impoverished places there are, and asking the question of simply how can Christians help more effectively. 00:05:04.079 --> 00:05:14.639 The Bible was written as the blueprint and the guidelines for our life, for how us as Christians and us as people can live the most flourishing and abundant lives uh that God has in store for us. 00:05:14.720 --> 00:05:19.519 And as such, it's going to give us guidelines for how to address every topic. 00:05:19.680 --> 00:05:23.839 Uh, but obviously, poverty is a huge issue, so it's going to address that. 00:05:23.920 --> 00:05:34.000 Um, over the last few months here on the show, we've talked a lot about socialism, a topic that is uh way too popular right now in the West and really all over the world. 00:05:34.160 --> 00:05:44.959 Uh, and it's it's uh you always hear from socialists and Christians who kind of lean socialist that they are being the most helpful and the most compassionate to people experiencing poverty. 00:05:45.040 --> 00:05:55.920 Like if you want to care about people in poverty, then you need to become a kind of socialist in the way you view economics and the people around you, which is just so false. 00:05:56.000 --> 00:06:00.720 Uh, because if you want to help people who are experiencing poverty, there's one manual you should go to. 00:06:00.879 --> 00:06:03.920 It wasn't written by Karl Marx, it was written by God, the Bible. 00:06:04.079 --> 00:06:10.959 So, how can Christians apply what the Bible says about poverty uh into our lives practically to help those around us? 00:06:11.040 --> 00:06:16.800 Uh, it it talks about it a lot, and it's something that is at the heart of what we do here at the Disciple Nations Lines. 00:06:16.959 --> 00:06:19.199 So we want to talk about that

with you guys today. 00:06:19.439 --> 00:06:37.120 Uh uh we have it's kind of like a teaching today, not really, it's it's still podcast style, but Dad, you did, I know that teaching last week on this exact topic um of kind of what is a biblical theology of uh compassion and ministry uh towards those who are struggling in poverty. 00:06:37.199 --> 00:06:43.279 So we just wanted to share that with you guys in somewhat of a concise manner today as well as next week here on the show. 00:06:43.360 --> 00:06:45.120 This is gonna be a two-part episode. 00:06:45.279 --> 00:06:47.439 So I hope you guys can stick around for both episodes. 00:06:47.600 --> 00:06:54.319 This today we're gonna be talking more about kind of the biblical basis and the grounding, the theology of engaging in poverty. 00:06:54.399 --> 00:07:01.680 Uh, and then next week we're gonna talk a little bit more about different approaches and practices and how to apply that practically for each of us into our lives. 00:07:01.759 --> 00:07:05.199 So this doesn't just stay head knowledge, but actually becomes hand application. 00:07:05.360 --> 00:07:08.319 So, Dan, I'm gonna hand it over to you uh just to get us rolling today. 00:07:08.480 --> 00:07:11.600 Anything else you'd add there at the beginning for uh introduction's sake? 00:07:12.160 --> 00:07:13.600 Yeah, you know, thanks, Luke. 00:07:13.680 --> 00:07:15.040 I thought you set that up really well. 00:07:15.199 --> 00:07:26.959 I I think um this is this we're doing it because we were um invited by the Center for our friends at the Center for Biblical Unity to be part of their um leadership cohort training. 00:07:27.120 --> 00:07:48.240 And um and so I had an opportunity to put kind of some of the kind of the main lessons we've learned over many years of kind of applying the Bible to this question of what does it look like to truly effectively work with the poor to help them kind of rise out of their poverty and be all that God intends them to be. 00:07:48.399 --> 00:07:50.319 And there's so much to say on this subject. 00:07:50.480 --> 00:08:10.000 This is going to be just some highlights, but as you said, Luke, um when we I mean the DNA, we are all about biblical worldview discipleship, breaking down that sacred secular divide and helping people apply the Bible uh holistically in every area of their lives, especially in their area of vocation. 00:08:10.319 --> 00:08:26.639 Um and because we came out of a background in poverty alleviation and development, um, this was our first opportunity, meaning meaning myself, Darrow, and Bob, to apply what we were teaching in this in our vocation, which was work amongst the poor. 00:08:26.720 --> 00:08:40.159 In other words, we said, if we just went to the Bible and we pulled out scripture uh principles from the Bible uh about the kind of work that we do, how would it look different from the prevailing industry? 00:08:40.320 --> 00:08:51.039 You know, because there is a relief and development

industry, or there's a common practice of work amongst the poor in places like Oregon or Portland or um, you know, internationally. 00:08:51.519 --> 00:09:05.679 And so it was really, you know, what I'm gonna teach here are some of the things that we learned, some of the most important lessons we learned by just going strictly to the Bible, you know, and and just saying, what are we gonna pull out of the Bible? 00:09:05.759 --> 00:09:19.440 And this is something that all Christians need to do, regardless of the kind of work that you do, because this same exercise that we're gonna model here as it relates to poverty and development can be applied to business and economics and uh work in the home. 00:09:19.519 --> 00:09:33.600 Uh, you know, just go to the Bible, study it, and pull out principles and truths that that shape the way that you approach that differently than the culture around you is modeling work in that area, if I could. 00:09:33.679 --> 00:09:36.559 So I would just say that, Luke, in terms of just some setup here. 00:09:36.639 --> 00:09:37.679 So Totally. 00:09:37.840 --> 00:09:38.559 Yeah, that's great. 00:09:38.720 --> 00:09:39.519 Practical theology. 00:09:40.559 --> 00:09:40.879 Exactly. 00:09:41.039 --> 00:09:42.639 Practical theology, exactly. 00:09:42.799 --> 00:09:46.559 So we're going to get into a practical theology of work amongst the poor. 00:09:46.720 --> 00:09:59.360 Um, and that really is the title of the teaching, and I'll get into it right now, Luke, is a biblical theology or a practical biblical theology for compassionate ministry amongst the poor or those who are struggling with poverty. 00:09:59.600 --> 00:10:05.039 And I just to begin, I think the place you have to start biblically on this is by defining terms. 00:10:05.200 --> 00:10:09.679 And the first term that you need to define uh is poverty. 00:10:09.840 --> 00:10:13.120 Um what is poverty uh biblically? 00:10:13.360 --> 00:10:25.360 And this is really uh I just want to pause on this one for a little bit because when culturally in the West, uh we define poverty uh in kind of a one-dimensional way. 00:10:25.519 --> 00:10:32.000 We define it materially and individually, um, uh almost entirely materially. 00:10:32.159 --> 00:10:51.759 Uh I remember when I studied the origins of the welfare state um under Lyndon Baines-Johnson back in the 1960s, there was a a bureaucrat that was working on the quote-unquote war on poverty, and he kind of quipped that, you know, the the way you overcome poverty is you just give the poor enough money so that they're not poor anymore. 00:10:52.000 --> 00:10:54.480 And I thought that's it. 00:10:54.639 --> 00:11:00.240 That's that's that's this that's a one-sentence encapsulation of this materialistic view of the poverty. 00:11:00.399 --> 00:11:04.720 Poverty, it's all material, it's just people don't have enough stuff, money, whatever. 00:11:04.879 --> 00:11:07.600 And if you give them enough, they won't be poor anymore. 00:11:07.840 --> 00:11:10.480 And I, you know, I think that's very prevalent. 00:11:10.559 --> 00:11:11.440 That, you know, in the West. 00:11:11.679 --> 00:11:15.360 That's the way we tend to think about poverty in the church and out of the church, by the way. 00:11:16.480 --> 00:11:21.039 But biblically, uh, that's not the way that the Bible is going to define poverty. 00:11:21.200 --> 00:11:23.759 The Bible is gonna define poverty relationally. 00:11:23.840 --> 00:11:27.919 And this gets back to the very way that God created the universe. 00:11:28.080 --> 00:11:43.759 He got, as we teach often in the DNA, at the core, at the foundation of everything, of all that exists, is a relational God, a God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, who existed before time and eternity in relationship, in loving relationship. 00:11:44.000 --> 00:11:52.720 And so consequently, when God created this world and he created human beings in his image, he created us fundamentally for relationship. 00:11:52.960 --> 00:11:58.000 And we talk often of the four relationships that God created at the beginning. 00:11:58.159 --> 00:12:02.159 Um, the first and most important is our own our relationship to God. 00:12:02.480 --> 00:12:11.840 The second is our relationship to ourselves, the third is our relationship with others, other people, and the fourth is our relationship to the rest of creation. 00:12:12.080 --> 00:12:17.360 Those four relationships are the fundamental relationships that God created in the beginning. 00:12:17.519 --> 00:12:21.200 And again, the first and the most important is our relationship to God. 00:12:21.679 --> 00:12:26.879 Um when the fall happens in Genesis chapter three, those relationships are broken. 00:12:27.120 --> 00:12:33.759 And when our relationship with God is broken, we're alienated, separated from God, all the other relationships break as well. 00:12:33.919 --> 00:12:37.440 We're alienated from ourselves, from others, and from creation. 00:12:37.519 --> 00:12:42.399 And that's the that's the cause of brokenness and poverty. 00:12:42.559 --> 00:12:46.720 That that really is a biblical that you know, when we answer the question, what is poverty biblically? 00:12:46.960 --> 00:12:49.039 We we would say it's broken relationships. 00:12:49.519 --> 00:12:51.759 And we can think of it in terms of those four. 00:12:52.080 --> 00:12:55.279 Our broken relationship with God, we could call spiritual poverty. 00:12:55.519 --> 00:13:01.279 That's the deepest and the most fundamental poverty that anyone can experience, a spiritual poverty. 00:13:01.840 --> 00:13:07.519 The next is the broken relationship to ourselves, um, alienation, we could call that personal poverty. 00:13:08.240 --> 00:13:11.039 Um the third, broken relationships with others. 00:13:11.200 --> 00:13:13.200 This would be relational poverty. 00:13:13.360 --> 00:13:17.360 This is something that is prevalent right now in the United States and throughout the West. 00:13:17.759 --> 00:13:20.080

Loneliness, isolation. 00:13:20.240 --> 00:13:29.919 Um really those two, that broken relationship to self and to others, rooted in a broken relationship with God, are really acute right now in the West. 00:13:30.159 --> 00:13:37.440 And if I could just pause here on this one, too, and say, you know, we don't think of ourselves as poor because we have a materialistic definition of poverty. 00:13:37.519 --> 00:13:40.159 You know, we think of ourselves as a wealthy nation, whatever it is. 00:13:40.320 --> 00:13:46.000 The West, the West is wealthy, the third world is poor because they don't have as much stuff as we do, right? 00:13:46.080 --> 00:13:49.120 You know, they're they're they're not as materially developed. 00:13:49.519 --> 00:13:59.759 Uh but uh when you look at poverty in this way, um we struggle with poverty maybe more acutely than the quote unquote third world. 00:13:59.919 --> 00:14:06.879 Uh because we wasn't that the famous Mother Teresa say did she say that to you, or am I mixing up stories here? 00:14:07.440 --> 00:14:22.320 She when she first came to New York, you know, and she sh Mother Teresa's passed away now, but when she was at kind of the peak of her ministry, she visited New York and she um is quoted as saying, when she arrived, this is the poorest city that I've ever been in. 00:14:22.639 --> 00:14:22.960 Yeah. 00:14:23.200 --> 00:14:28.080 And then of course, that for Western people, she you know, we go, what in the world are you talking about? 00:14:28.240 --> 00:14:29.440 New York is not poor. 00:14:29.600 --> 00:14:32.080 You come from Calcutta, India, that's poor. 00:14:33.039 --> 00:14:36.639 How can you say New York is the poorest city you've ever been in? 00:14:37.200 --> 00:14:44.879 Um she was looking at poverty biblically, right, or in in a different way than this you know, secular materialistic paradigm, right? 00:14:45.039 --> 00:14:47.200 Yeah, but she was seeing something different. 00:14:47.360 --> 00:15:04.960 And she had what she had in mind specifically was the issue of abortion, that that was a kind of poverty that you would actually take this precious, priceless gift of children that God had given, and essentially throw them away. 00:15:05.279 --> 00:15:10.240 You know, what what kind of poverty would lead somebody to throw away this priceless gift, you know? 00:15:10.879 --> 00:15:14.080 And um, so that that's what she was looking at specifically there. 00:15:14.240 --> 00:15:17.679 And she her comment was this is the poorest city I've ever been in. 00:15:17.840 --> 00:15:18.559 So yeah. 00:15:19.360 --> 00:15:30.799 Um anyways, and then yeah, back to the four relationships, the broken relationship with creation, that's there we're talking about uh the material world or material poverty. 00:15:30.960 --> 00:15:46.960 So certainly biblical uh a biblical answer to the question of what is poverty isn't going to ignore material, material need, um, you know, food, shelter, these things are very important, but it's gonna define it a much more broadly. 00:15:47.600 --> 00:15:58.799 And here's the here's the bottom line on this, because poverty is more than just material lack, poverty alleviation biblically has to be more than just material provision. 00:15:59.120 --> 00:16:05.360 In other words, it has to get at a healing in all of these broken relationships. 00:16:05.519 --> 00:16:09.519 And Luke, you know Francis Schaefer has been so important to the ministry. 00:16:10.159 --> 00:16:21.679 He has a quote where he says that we should be working on the basis of Christ's finished work for substantial healing now in every area. 00:16:21.840 --> 00:16:28.720 In other words, in all four of those relationships, in every area where there are divisions because of the fall. 00:16:28.799 --> 00:16:35.919 And that lays out the foundation for a biblical approach to poverty uh alleviation or working amongst the poor. 00:16:36.159 --> 00:16:44.080 It's this idea that we need to be working for restoration, redemption, healing in every one of those broken relationships. 00:16:44.399 --> 00:16:50.639 Uh you know, that that that is what Christ and the cross came to redeem and to restore. 00:16:50.879 --> 00:16:51.200 Yeah. 00:16:51.360 --> 00:16:54.080 So um Yeah, that's um I love that. 00:16:54.159 --> 00:17:02.399 I I think of you know the Garden of Eden pre-fall, as you know, you you would say those are probably the richest people that have ever lived on the face of the earth, Adam and Eve. 00:17:03.120 --> 00:17:04.480 You know, what was their bank accounts? 00:17:04.720 --> 00:17:05.200 Zero. 00:17:06.079 --> 00:17:15.839 And you know, and yet they had these four relationships in harmony and perfect harmony, and they were able to live the way God's designed us as humans to live in that that perfect state. 00:17:16.160 --> 00:17:18.799 Um it's because those four relationships were intact. 00:17:18.880 --> 00:17:23.039 And I I think it's interesting whenever you guys teach on this concept of the four relationships. 00:17:23.200 --> 00:17:27.440 This idea, yes, it definitely applies to poverty, but it applies to everything. 00:17:27.759 --> 00:17:39.359 It applies to, I mean, you can just just go through a list of classes at your local college, anthropology, psychology, biology, you know, physics, whatever it is, those four relationships apply to those things. 00:17:39.440 --> 00:17:43.759 And it's really interesting to that that's just a really practical when we're talking about practical theology. 00:17:44.160 --> 00:17:49.119 This teaching on the four relationships and healing those can apply to anything. 00:17:49.680 --> 00:17:52.000 So I just like to highlight that. 00:17:52.400 --> 00:18:06.799 Yeah, and I think you know, our our colleague Bob Bob Moffat, co-founder of the ministry, you know, he often points to Jesus himself as a model, uh, an example of uh kind of what a most perfectly developed person could look like. 00:18:06.960 -->

00:18:18.720 If our goal in poverty alleviation is to help people develop, um, you know, to develop into the fullness of what God has intended for them, you know, then you have to ask the question, what well, who's the model? 00:18:18.799 --> 00:18:21.039 Or what what what's the picture of what that looks like? 00:18:21.200 --> 00:18:21.359 Yeah. 00:18:21.519 --> 00:18:24.240 And Bob would say, well, the picture of what that looks like is Jesus himself. 00:18:24.559 --> 00:18:24.720 Yeah. 00:18:24.880 --> 00:18:27.039 He's the most perfectly developed person who ever lived. 00:18:27.200 --> 00:18:36.079 Now, when you look at Christ, you and you overlay that with the four relationships, he obviously had a very close, intimate relationship to his heavenly father. 00:18:36.480 --> 00:18:39.200 Um, so that was the foundation of everything. 00:18:39.359 --> 00:18:43.920 Um He uh, you know, understood who he was, right? 00:18:44.000 --> 00:18:47.359 There was no alienation, you know, in terms of his own person. 00:18:47.759 --> 00:18:51.119 He understood who he was and what his mission was, what his purpose was. 00:18:51.359 --> 00:18:58.880 He had relationships, uh, you know, really thriving relationships with other people, with his own family, with his disciples. 00:18:59.039 --> 00:19:05.680 Um, not that there wasn't conflict, of course, uh with the Pharisees and others, but he had he had healthy relationships. 00:19:06.000 --> 00:19:11.599 And then materially, you know, this is this is where you know you might look at Jesus and go, gosh, did he have a big bank account? 00:19:11.759 --> 00:19:13.279 Or you know, no. 00:19:13.519 --> 00:19:15.599 Uh he didn't even have a college education. 00:19:16.160 --> 00:19:24.720 But um he was highly educated, and he um he had uh he had adequacy, if you will. 00:19:24.880 --> 00:19:27.920 He had adequate food and shelter, you know. 00:19:28.400 --> 00:19:33.519 Um so but he was, you know, so he was the most highly developed, right, if you will, person. 00:19:33.680 --> 00:19:34.799 So that's helpful, I think. 00:19:34.880 --> 00:19:36.480 You know, kind of what's our target? 00:19:36.559 --> 00:19:37.440 What's our model, right? 00:19:37.680 --> 00:19:42.000 Well, you can't you can't beat that model or target, if you will. 00:19:43.039 --> 00:19:43.839 Yeah, that's helpful. 00:19:44.240 --> 00:19:45.119 Let's go on, Luke. 00:19:45.200 --> 00:20:00.880 Um I I want to look, um, I'm gonna base um most of the rest of the talk around principles that come from God's word specifically when dealing with people that are struggling with poverty um and brokenness of various kinds. 00:20:01.200 --> 00:20:05.759 And I'm gonna start by looking at principles from the New Testament. 00:20:05.839 --> 00:20:08.880 I, you know, again, this is this is not all inclusive. 00:20:08.960 --> 00:20:10.079 We don't have nearly enough time. 00:20:10.160 --> 00:20:17.359 There's a lot in the Bible on this subject, but I want to just start

with principles from the New Testament, specifically from the Apostle Paul. 00:20:17.920 --> 00:20:28.400 And he gives some really powerful biblical principles on how we should think about and work amongst the poor or those who are struggling with poverty. 00:20:28.799 --> 00:20:33.920 So, what I'd like to do, Luke, is look at three passages, and I'm gonna ask you to read them. 00:20:34.240 --> 00:20:46.160 And as you read them, uh uh answer the question what what principles can I glean or pull out from that passage as it relates to work amongst the poor? 00:20:46.720 --> 00:20:48.079 So if I could get your help, Luke. 00:20:48.240 --> 00:20:55.440 Yeah, the first one is Second Thessalonians uh chapter three, verses six through twelve. 00:20:56.000 --> 00:20:56.319 Okay. 00:21:01.839 --> 00:21:03.200 You are getting put on the spot. 00:21:03.359 --> 00:21:04.799 I didn't get to read these before the episode. 00:21:05.119 --> 00:21:07.599 Come away with my smart sounding takeaways. 00:21:08.559 --> 00:21:09.119 All right. 00:21:09.279 --> 00:21:12.400 Uh yeah, Second Thessalonians three, six through twelve. 00:21:12.640 --> 00:21:22.720 Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brothers who are walking in idleness and not in accord with the traditions that you received from us. 00:21:22.960 --> 00:21:39.519 For you yourself know how you ought to imitate us, because we were not idle when we were with you, nor did we eat anyone's bread without paying for it, but with the toil and labor we worked day and night, that we might not be a burden to any of you. 00:21:39.759 --> 00:21:46.720 It was not because we do not have the right, but to give you in ourselves an example to imitate. 00:21:47.200 --> 00:21:55.200 For even when we were with you, we would give you this command If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat. 00:21:55.519 --> 00:21:59.599 For we hear that some among you walk in idleness, not busy out. 00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:02.000 Work but busy bodies. 00:22:02.240 --> 00:22:10.880 Now, such persons we command and encourage in the Lord Jesus Christ to do their work quietly and earn their own living. 00:22:11.759 --> 00:22:13.039 Okay, so takeaways from that? 00:22:13.279 --> 00:22:14.000 Yeah, yeah. 00:22:14.240 --> 00:22:23.200 But what what principles can we pull out of that passage in terms of how we should view and work amongst the poor Luke? 00:22:23.279 --> 00:22:23.519 Yeah. 00:22:25.359 --> 00:22:27.119 Uh well, don't walk in idleness. 00:22:27.279 --> 00:22:28.400 I'm seeing that right away. 00:22:28.799 --> 00:22:31.039 Um I'm also seeing that you should model it. 00:22:31.119 --> 00:22:37.519 You need to be hard workers yourself and uh to work diligently at everything ahead of you. 00:22:37.759 --> 00:22:46.880 I just finished reading Acts with my wife, and it is crazy how much those guys did in the span of a few years throughout Paul's three different trips. 00:22:47.200 --> 00:22:50.880 He was just go, go, go non-stop while working as a tent maker. 00:22:51.039 --> 00:22:51.279 Right. 00:22:51.519 --> 00:22:57.839 And, you know, staying up all night sometimes teaching these guys and then bopping around the Mediterranean. 00:22:57.920 --> 00:22:59.279 He was just on the move. 00:22:59.599 --> 00:23:01.519 It's uh it's inspiring to see. 00:23:01.759 --> 00:23:05.279 Um and yeah, I was in uh what where am I? 00:23:05.599 --> 00:23:17.200 Proverbs 13 this morning, and this I'm I'm in a very busy season of life right now, so all the verses about laziness are really popping out to me because I'm trying to eliminate laziness for my life. 00:23:18.079 --> 00:23:32.319 And uh uh there's a lot in Proverbs about the sluggard and the lazy man uh versus the diligent hands and that those those proverbs uh passages, I mean, really are the same thing that Paul's dealing with here. 00:23:32.480 --> 00:23:33.279 This is a warning. 00:23:33.359 --> 00:23:39.440 He's speaking to the church in Thessalonica, and it's a warning against uh idleness. 00:23:39.519 --> 00:23:45.839 Uh don't be idle, uh, don't be lazy, don't be busybodies is the word he uses here. 00:23:46.880 --> 00:23:49.359 But work, you know, work hard. 00:23:49.599 --> 00:23:58.799 Um, and that hard work, uh, in in his case, he says, follow my example, uh, it's so that uh Paul wouldn't be a burden to others. 00:23:59.039 --> 00:24:09.279 So, you know, we see a principle here of work uh in order to take responsibility for myself, my family, and not to be a burden on others. 00:24:09.440 --> 00:24:14.319 So this is a really important biblical principle when you're working with the poor, this whole thing about work. 00:24:14.480 --> 00:24:16.319 I'm gonna talk much more about that later. 00:24:16.480 --> 00:24:21.119 In fact, Paul says if a person's not willing to work, then they shouldn't eat. 00:24:21.359 --> 00:24:35.519 So it's this is we're this is a strong passage on personal responsibility and the importance of work in order to provide, to take care for yourselves and and not to be a burden to others. 00:24:35.680 --> 00:24:36.559 So yeah, good. 00:24:36.640 --> 00:24:42.559 We'll we'll uh unpack these in just a little bit, but I want to lay the biblical foundation for them first here. 00:24:42.640 --> 00:24:43.440 Yeah, go ahead, Luke. 00:24:43.759 --> 00:24:43.920 Okay. 00:24:44.000 --> 00:24:49.440 Well, I have I've got some more thoughts, but if we're gonna pack further, well, I just think that verse sounds so cruel. 00:24:49.680 --> 00:24:52.079 If anyone is not working, don't let them eat. 00:24:52.400 --> 00:24:56.079 It's like, well, that's uh again the socialists, they're not gonna like that one at all. 00:24:56.799 --> 00:24:57.599 Isn't it right? 00:24:58.160 --> 00:25:01.599 What is it, the little principle there about universal basic income, yeah. 00:25:01.920 --> 00:25:03.200 Right, right, yes. 00:25:03.599 --> 00:25:05.519 No one will work and be

happy. 00:25:05.920 --> 00:25:06.799 Yeah, right. 00:25:06.960 --> 00:25:07.680 Something like that. 00:25:07.839 --> 00:25:08.319 Yeah. 00:25:08.640 --> 00:25:13.440 No, the Bible has a strong work ethic, and I want to talk more about that later. 00:25:13.519 --> 00:25:23.279 Um, and that's gonna come in kind of very principally here when we talk about a biblical approach to poverty and uh and caring for the poor, biblical compassion. 00:25:23.519 --> 00:25:26.720 Let's go on to the next one though, Luke, Ephesians 4 28. 00:25:27.039 --> 00:25:28.799 Just a simple verse here. 00:25:29.359 --> 00:25:29.680 Okay. 00:25:31.440 --> 00:25:42.400 This one says, Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor, doing honest work with his own hands, so that he may have something to share with anyone in need. 00:25:43.200 --> 00:25:43.519 Okay. 00:25:46.880 --> 00:25:57.759 So that you will not have any need, but then also so that you can give to those around you who are in need, so work so much so to cover your own needs, and then also have extra uh to give away at the end. 00:25:58.079 --> 00:25:59.680 Yeah, it's really powerful, Luke. 00:25:59.759 --> 00:26:00.000 Exactly. 00:26:00.079 --> 00:26:00.720 You nailed it. 00:26:00.799 --> 00:26:08.640 You know, biblical transformation, uh, biblical redemption moves people from taking, you know, the thief to working. 00:26:09.200 --> 00:26:19.359 And it doesn't just stop with working, it's ends with giving, you know, and this idea of being generous and helping others because of because you have something to share. 00:26:19.599 --> 00:26:22.160 So the thief becomes a contributor. 00:26:22.400 --> 00:26:29.599 And uh, this is again a really powerful principle that's going to come into play when we look at biblical compassion. 00:26:30.079 --> 00:26:31.599 Um, let's look at the last one. 00:26:31.759 --> 00:26:43.200 This one is a really rich passage of scripture that um gets overlooked, I think, all too often when we're dealing with uh this subject of biblical approach to compassion and and poverty. 00:26:43.519 --> 00:26:43.839 Yeah. 00:26:44.079 --> 00:26:47.359 First Timothy five, verses three through sixteen. 00:26:47.599 --> 00:26:48.160 Yep. 00:26:49.279 --> 00:27:02.720 Honor widows who are truly widows, but if a widow has children or grandchildren, let them first learn how to show godliness to their own household, and make some return to their parents. 00:27:02.960 --> 00:27:05.599 For this is pleasing in the sight of God. 00:27:05.920 --> 00:27:14.640 She who is truly a widow, left all alone, has set her hopes on God and continues in supplication and prayer night and day. 00:27:14.880 --> 00:27:19.519 But she who is self indulgent is dead even while she still lives. 00:27:19.680 --> 00:27:23.440 Command these things as well, so that they may not be without reproach. 00:27:23.759 --> 00:27:35.440 But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for the members of his household,

he has denied the faith, and is worth worse than an unbeliever. 00:27:35.680 --> 00:28:09.759 Let a widow be enrolled if she is not less than sixty years of age, having been the wife of one husband, and having the reputation of good works, if she has brought up children, has shown hospitality, has washed the feet of the saints, has cared for the afflicted, and has devoted herself to every good work, but refuse to enroll a younger widow, for when their passions draw them away from Christ, they desire to marry, and so incur condemnation for having abandoned their former faith. 00:28:10.000 --> 00:28:21.440 Besides that, they learn to be idlers, going about from house to house, and not only idlers, but also gossips and busybodies, saying what they should not. 00:28:21.759 --> 00:28:30.000 So I would have a younger widow marry, bear children, manage their households, and give the adversary no occasion for slander. 00:28:30.240 --> 00:28:33.200 For some have already strayed after Satan. 00:28:33.440 --> 00:28:39.359 If any believing woman has relatives who are widows, let her care for them. 00:28:39.759 --> 00:28:45.599 Let the church not be burdened, so it may care for those who are truly widows. 00:28:45.920 --> 00:28:46.400 Yeah. 00:28:46.640 --> 00:28:47.920 Okay, that that's a lot. 00:28:48.000 --> 00:28:49.039 That's a mouthful there, Luke. 00:28:49.440 --> 00:28:50.079 That's a ton, yeah. 00:28:50.319 --> 00:28:52.000 There's there's so much good stuff here. 00:28:52.079 --> 00:29:01.440 And let again, the context is Paul's teaching to the church and specifically to the deacons of the church who are responsible to care for the needs of those in the church. 00:29:01.519 --> 00:29:05.279 Um, and he's gonna talk specifically about widows in the church. 00:29:05.519 --> 00:29:12.880 And the first principle I want to bring out of this, Luke, is uh he's gonna he's gonna discern between two different kinds of widows. 00:29:13.039 --> 00:29:15.599 He's not gonna just treat widows the same here. 00:29:15.839 --> 00:29:22.160 Um there's widows who, by their good conduct, you know, deserve, right, to be cared for. 00:29:22.319 --> 00:29:34.960 And there's widows who um, you know, who essentially are idle, busybodies, and you know, they need to, as he said, you know, they need to take responsibility for themselves. 00:29:35.119 --> 00:29:40.799 So it's it's a similar uh kind of echo to what we saw in 2 Thessalonians 3, 6 through 12. 00:29:40.880 --> 00:29:47.599 You know, they need, before they get any kind of help from others, they need to care for themselves, you know, and get get working, you know. 00:29:48.079 --> 00:29:50.480 So there's there's that principle of discernment. 00:29:50.640 --> 00:29:54.960 I'm gonna talk more about that, but there, you know, we don't just treat the poor all the same. 00:29:55.200 --> 00:29:55.519 Yeah. 00:29:55.759 --> 00:30:00.480 Um, so that that's coming out here, this this principle of discernment, which we'll talk

more about. 00:30:00.720 --> 00:30:10.079 The other principle that's really powerful here is uh uh a principle called um affiliation, or it's the Catholics would call it subsidiarity. 00:30:10.160 --> 00:30:16.480 In other words, there's a kind of an order uh to how the poor should be helped. 00:30:16.799 --> 00:30:24.640 And um, you know, it should in in this passage you can see that order in terms of first, they should care for themselves, right? 00:30:24.720 --> 00:30:27.920 The the the widow has a responsibility to provide for her own needs. 00:30:28.640 --> 00:30:40.799 But secondly, um the family members uh that you know are part of that widow's family, let's say the children that she's had, if she has children, um they need to care for her next, right? 00:30:40.960 --> 00:30:42.079 Her own family. 00:30:42.240 --> 00:30:44.240 Yeah that that they come next, okay? 00:30:44.400 --> 00:30:56.480 So God has established these communities, the family, and the family has a primary responsibility to care for the people that are poor in their own family before someone else. 00:30:56.720 --> 00:31:01.680 But then Paul says there's certain widows that for whatever reason they don't, they're completely alone. 00:31:01.839 --> 00:31:03.519 They don't have family members. 00:31:03.599 --> 00:31:11.920 Maybe they're not only their husband has died, but they don't have any children, they don't have any extended family to care for them, they're alone. 00:31:12.319 --> 00:31:15.200 Then Paul says the church steps in, right? 00:31:15.359 --> 00:31:20.079 That's where the church has a responsibility, but not before the family, right? 00:31:20.640 --> 00:31:23.039 So this is kind of this really important principle. 00:31:23.119 --> 00:31:24.559 Again, it's called subsidiarity. 00:31:24.640 --> 00:31:29.200 It it also overlaps with uh what Kuiper would call sphere sovereignty. 00:31:29.359 --> 00:31:33.759 God has established certain spheres, the family, the church, the civil government. 00:31:34.000 --> 00:31:42.559 And they all have important responsibilities, but uh they're but but be but they are to be functioning in a kind of order, right? 00:31:42.960 --> 00:31:48.640 Um so uh lots here in this passage from 1 Timothy 5, 3 through 16. 00:31:48.799 --> 00:31:57.599 This is all three of these are powerful, but that one in particular is really, really uh lays out just a lot of principles of biblical compassion. 00:31:59.039 --> 00:32:20.559 If I could continue, Luke, I wanted to now take what we've just discussed and uh introduce a book that a friend of ours, a friend of our ministry, Marvin Olasky, wrote many years ago that probably had more of an impact on my thinking and Darro's and others than almost any book on biblical poverty fighting. 00:32:20.720 --> 00:32:25.599 Um, that book is titled The Tragedy of American Compassion. 00:32:25.920 --> 00:32:40.960 Um, and what Olasky did with this book is he did such a great service because he went back and he looked at how the poor in the colonial times in America were being cared for by families, churches. 00:32:41.279 --> 00:32:42.880 Um, you know, what was happening? 00:32:43.039 --> 00:32:45.839 There were people that were impoverished in the colonies. 00:32:46.079 --> 00:32:47.519 How were they being cared for? 00:32:47.680 --> 00:32:48.319 What was happening? 00:32:48.480 --> 00:32:49.440 What did it look like? 00:32:49.599 --> 00:32:51.039 That was his question. 00:32:51.279 --> 00:33:02.160 And he wanted to look at that particular time period because that was a time when the Bible was much more influential on shaping, right, the worldview of the culture than it is today. 00:33:02.480 --> 00:33:13.200 Um, and consequently, you saw biblical principles being applied in the colonial times in a way that we don't see today as much. 00:33:13.519 --> 00:33:32.079 Then he went forward and he looked at, as the United States secularized, how that kind of changed the way poverty and work amongst the poor changed, the rise of the modern welfare state, and you get all the way up to a city like Portland, Oregon today, and the way that it cares for the homeless, let's say. 00:33:32.559 --> 00:33:33.599 Very different. 00:33:33.839 --> 00:33:40.559 And that is what he called the tragedy of American compassion, just the loss of these biblical principles. 00:33:40.799 --> 00:34:01.759 But what he does, it's so helpful in this book, is he ends the book, the last chapter or two, I can't remember exactly now, but he lays out uh what he gleans biblical principles for poverty, fighting, and compassion from the Bible that he learned, not only from the Bible, but the example of the early of the church in colonial America. 00:34:02.400 --> 00:34:07.359 And he he he he describes these using the acrostic ABC. 00:34:07.839 --> 00:34:09.360 Um, very, very helpful. 00:34:09.440 --> 00:34:13.599 And I want to just kind of go through these uh with the rest of the time we have here. 00:34:13.679 --> 00:34:19.119 Um so let me first of all just kind of what are the ABCs of biblical compassion according to Alaski? 00:34:19.360 --> 00:34:20.559 The first one is affiliation. 00:34:20.719 --> 00:34:23.199 I'll talk about these in a second and explain them. 00:34:23.440 --> 00:34:35.440 The second one is bonding, the third is categorization, the fourth is discernment, uh, the fifth is employment, uh, and the sixth goes along with the fifth, freedom from dependency. 00:34:35.679 --> 00:34:38.559 And this the last is God. 00:34:38.960 --> 00:34:47.280 So A, affiliation, B bonding, C categorization, D, discernment, E employment, F freedom from dependency and G God. 00:34:47.920 --> 00:34:58.159 So um let's look at those kind of one at a time because it's a really helpful way of kind of just laying out in front of us, yeah, what I think are just foundational biblical principles. 00:34:58.320 --> 00:35:00.239 Let's start with that affiliation A. 00:35:01.599 --> 00:35:15.119 So affiliation

is going to ask the question when we're dealing, when we're working in contexts of poverty, uh, who has the primary responsibility or relationship towards this person that should be helping them? 00:35:15.440 --> 00:35:19.679 Um and the goal with affiliation is to reconnect people. 00:35:19.840 --> 00:35:32.639 If there's brokenness or alienation, reconnect them with those communities that are closest to them, family, friends, neighbors, churches that should be or having a that should have a responsibility to help. 00:35:32.800 --> 00:35:48.079 Um and again, the principle here is that effective poverty uh alleviation or compassion, it works best at the most local level, right, in the family, in the church, in the local community. 00:35:48.239 --> 00:36:02.079 Uh it doesn't work well when there's a big gap between the person that's providing um the help, let's say the federal government through a welfare program and the person who is struggling with poverty, right? 00:36:02.159 --> 00:36:03.039 That's a big gap. 00:36:03.199 --> 00:36:07.920 You know, you're dealing with uh a far distant, removed bureaucracy in Washington, D.C. 00:36:08.239 --> 00:36:10.880 uh that doesn't even know the person by name. 00:36:11.039 --> 00:36:13.760 You know, they they they are just a statistic. 00:36:14.000 --> 00:36:19.039 So biblically, affiliation is gonna say, again, it's this principle of subsidiarity. 00:36:19.519 --> 00:36:21.360 Who has the responsibility to help? 00:36:21.599 --> 00:36:29.119 Um and again, the on that, the the Bible is gonna answer that question this way responsibility goes from the inside out. 00:36:29.280 --> 00:36:33.840 The individual has the first and primary responsibility to help themselves, right? 00:36:33.920 --> 00:36:36.159 That's that was Paul's teaching there. 00:36:36.400 --> 00:36:36.559 Yeah. 00:36:36.719 --> 00:36:38.800 Um, you know, don't be idle, work. 00:36:39.039 --> 00:36:40.239 That's you, that's on you. 00:36:40.400 --> 00:36:41.440 You need to work. 00:36:41.599 --> 00:36:43.920 Uh, but let's say you can't for whatever reason. 00:36:44.000 --> 00:36:51.199 You're you're you're deeply disabled, or you know, there's some kind of disaster or crisis, you can't work, you know. 00:36:51.519 --> 00:36:53.440 Then what who's next? 00:36:53.599 --> 00:36:55.440 Who's got the next level of responsibility? 00:36:55.599 --> 00:37:01.199 That would be the family, children, parents, you know, the immediate family, the extended family. 00:37:01.360 --> 00:37:03.440 They would they would say, what can we do? 00:37:03.519 --> 00:37:05.119 It's our responsibility next to help. 00:37:05.199 --> 00:37:06.719 They can't help themselves. 00:37:06.960 --> 00:37:10.000 Let's say the family can't do it uh for whatever reasons. 00:37:10.079 --> 00:37:10.880 Uh, who's next? 00:37:11.039 --> 00:37:14.239 This is where we we just saw this in the passage in Timothy, there, right? 00:37:14.400 --> 00:37:24.800 Then the church can step in or uh

church-based or Christian voluntary associations, they can come along and say, okay, the individual can't help themselves in this circumstance. 00:37:24.880 --> 00:37:28.320 The family is unable to, we can help. 00:37:28.559 --> 00:37:39.360 Uh next, let's say the churches aren't able to for whatever reason, there are churches, then a local community, then the state or local government, and very last, you would get into kind of federal government, right? 00:37:39.519 --> 00:37:42.880 So that that's the principle of subsidiarity. 00:37:43.119 --> 00:37:46.800 Um, it's going to start with the individual, then family, then church. 00:37:47.039 --> 00:38:01.679 So affiliation, this first this first principle is going to be, let's say we're dealing with a person who's if struggling, like a homeless person, you come across them, the question you want to ask is what who what what are the relationships that this person has? 00:38:01.840 --> 00:38:03.280 Who who are their family? 00:38:03.440 --> 00:38:05.519 What community do they come from? 00:38:06.000 --> 00:38:11.920 And why are the why are those relationships broken and how can I reaffiliate them with those people? 00:38:12.079 --> 00:38:12.800 Is that possible? 00:38:12.960 --> 00:38:14.880 Like you always want to start with that question. 00:38:16.079 --> 00:38:17.360 Does that make sense, Luke? 00:38:17.679 --> 00:38:23.360 Yeah, I'm just thinking about how messed up our system is nowadays, the tragedy of American compassion. 00:38:23.440 --> 00:38:25.920 I'm thinking of some of the biggest areas of poverty that we see. 00:38:26.079 --> 00:38:34.159 I think Mother Teresa nailed it when she said one of the biggest areas of poverty you see in the West is abortion and that broken relationship between the child and the parent. 00:38:34.400 --> 00:38:47.280 Um, and I think I I I wish I had the stat in front of me, but you know, economic uh well-being of the children is you is one of, I think it might be the most, the leading reasons for getting an abortion. 00:38:47.599 --> 00:38:49.360 I don't have enough money to care for my kid. 00:38:49.599 --> 00:38:50.159 Right. 00:38:50.639 --> 00:39:03.440 If that's the case, and that young woman has family, the family's also to blame because they could easily step in and help that mom who's usually a single mom, usually a teenager, and she's worried she can't care for the kid. 00:39:03.679 --> 00:39:11.039 If you have family around, they're also to blame in that in that situation, you know, which sounds extremely harsh, but the family needs to step in. 00:39:11.119 --> 00:39:13.760 If she's really worried about the finances, they can step in. 00:39:13.920 --> 00:39:16.000 If they can't, the local church can step in. 00:39:16.159 --> 00:39:20.960 Luckily, local churches, I think, do a pretty good job at this in the US with pregnancy resource centers and whatnot. 00:39:21.119 --> 00:39:24.719 There is there is plenty of resources to step in and help young mothers. 00:39:25.039 --> 00:39:39.280 Um, I also think of one of the other big areas of poverty, which is also a relational poverty that we see at end of life with the elderly in the West, and how a lot of old people just end up pretty much abandoned for the last 10 years of their life, not cared for by anyone. 00:39:39.519 --> 00:39:39.679 Right. 00:39:39.840 --> 00:39:45.280 And that's so sad to see because a lot of times they do have family and the families just completely disowned them. 00:39:45.519 --> 00:39:50.000 And these are it's you're putting your finger on a very acute form of poverty here in the West. 00:39:50.320 --> 00:39:52.079 You you see this all over the West. 00:39:52.559 --> 00:39:56.320 Elderly people who are utterly alone, utterly alone. 00:39:56.480 --> 00:40:01.280 Yeah, they they don't even have contact with neighbors, much less their family. 00:40:01.360 --> 00:40:05.920 It's one of the most heartbreaking kind of poverties that you see here in the West. 00:40:06.159 --> 00:40:07.840 So you're exactly right, Luke, with that. 00:40:08.079 --> 00:40:08.320 Yeah. 00:40:08.639 --> 00:40:11.280 And the Bible is gonna say, no, family has a responsibility. 00:40:11.360 --> 00:40:16.960 That's why God created the family, amongst other reasons, right, to care for its members, right? 00:40:17.039 --> 00:40:21.760 That that is uh, you know, that's a clear kind of purpose, God-given purpose for the family. 00:40:22.000 --> 00:40:31.599 The other thing I like that you're doing here, Luke, is you're you're already comparing and contrasting, and you're saying, okay, this principle of affiliation, is it being practiced or not? 00:40:31.679 --> 00:40:37.440 When I look around, you know, the community and the work that's being done here amongst the poor in my own community. 00:40:37.679 --> 00:40:42.880 And that's exactly the question that we want to ask, and we want to do some kind of analysis of that. 00:40:42.960 --> 00:40:45.599 You know, what is that principle being practiced? 00:40:45.760 --> 00:40:46.320 Why not? 00:40:46.480 --> 00:40:46.960 You know? 00:40:47.199 --> 00:40:49.920 And we're gonna do that in the second part of this um episode. 00:40:50.000 --> 00:40:58.400 We're gonna actually come back through these ABCs and we're gonna do a little analysis of just how they are, or in most cases, are not being practiced today. 00:40:58.719 --> 00:41:06.079 That's so helpful because then as Christians, that sets you up when you see what what the true principles are, how they're not being applied. 00:41:06.239 --> 00:41:11.679 Now you can you can kind of create your biblical theology to say, hey, this is what needs to change, right? 00:41:11.760 --> 00:41:14.079 This is this is how things need to change. 00:41:14.239 --> 00:41:28.639 And that that that's what you need in order to act effectively yourself, or at a policy level to say, hey, we've got to have, we've got to change things at a at a at a uh community governing kind of

level at a policy level. 00:41:28.880 --> 00:41:31.519 So let's go on. 00:41:31.599 --> 00:41:33.199 Um, so that's affiliation. 00:41:33.280 --> 00:41:34.079 Uh that's A. 00:41:34.320 --> 00:41:35.599 B is bonding. 00:41:35.679 --> 00:41:41.519 Um, and bonding basically is the principle that biblical compassion is personal. 00:41:41.760 --> 00:41:42.800 It's personal. 00:41:42.960 --> 00:41:49.360 It doesn't treat the poor as this kind of uh uh amorphous category, right? 00:41:49.519 --> 00:41:50.320 The poor. 00:41:50.639 --> 00:41:55.519 Uh it looks at people individually and it asks, who is this person? 00:41:56.079 --> 00:42:02.320 Um and it uh the the principle of bonding says that poverty ministry needs to be relational. 00:42:02.480 --> 00:42:05.039 It can't just be kind of transactional. 00:42:05.119 --> 00:42:10.480 Um another way of saying it is that people need people, not just programs, right? 00:42:11.119 --> 00:42:29.119 So um this is very important because uh again, so much of I don't want to get into critiquing so much of what happens now, but just to contrast it, so much of what we do in the West in terms of poverty fighting with our welfare programs is very impersonal and it's very program-based. 00:42:29.360 --> 00:42:36.880 And um it deals with uh the poor as kind of clients, you know, or beneficiaries. 00:42:37.119 --> 00:42:40.000 And it doesn't really know anything about them personally. 00:42:40.159 --> 00:42:43.360 But that biblically is not going to be the case because and and why is that? 00:42:43.519 --> 00:42:46.320 Because everybody is made in God's image, right? 00:42:46.480 --> 00:42:50.559 Everyone has incredible dignity, value, worth, and a story. 00:42:50.960 --> 00:42:56.480 And we have to understand all of that in order to be effective in our care for them. 00:42:56.800 --> 00:43:06.400 And uh the the other thing that I like about bonding is that when affiliation, these two go, these two, by the way, go together, affiliation and bonding. 00:43:06.480 --> 00:43:09.039 Let's affiliation is asking who should help. 00:43:09.280 --> 00:43:13.679 And sometimes you get to a situation where there's nobody that can help. 00:43:13.840 --> 00:43:22.159 These, these, all of these relationships, God ordained relationships with family, church, community, there's just this person is really alone. 00:43:22.480 --> 00:43:28.639 Then it's on it's on uh individual Christians to come alongside that person and almost adopt them, bring them in. 00:43:28.800 --> 00:43:31.119 And you literally see this with adoption. 00:43:31.360 --> 00:43:33.280 Adoption ministry is bonding. 00:43:33.360 --> 00:43:35.840 Like this person is alienated from their family. 00:43:35.920 --> 00:43:39.280 They have no mother, they have no father, they're alone, they're isolated. 00:43:39.599 --> 00:43:45.840 I will bring them in and adopt them into my family, and they will become my children. 00:43:46.000 --> 00:43:49.440 That's a that's a perfect picture

of this principle of bonding. 00:43:49.599 --> 00:43:52.800 And so any thoughts or questions on that, Luke? 00:43:52.880 --> 00:43:57.440 I think as we go through these, y'all before I go to the next one, I'll just ask you if you any have any reflections on that. 00:43:57.760 --> 00:43:58.639 I definitely have a lot of thoughts. 00:43:58.719 --> 00:43:59.199 This is great. 00:43:59.280 --> 00:43:59.599 Uh yeah. 00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:01.519 Personal aspect, that's so obvious. 00:44:01.599 --> 00:44:06.159 You know, if you're gonna help anyone, you have to get to know the person's story before you can actually be helpful. 00:44:06.320 --> 00:44:07.360 I get frustrated right now. 00:44:07.440 --> 00:44:12.960 We have three kids, three and under, and some of these parenting books we're reading just treat kids like they're robots. 00:44:13.039 --> 00:44:15.760 And if you just do this exact formula, then it always works out. 00:44:15.840 --> 00:44:20.239 And I'm like, no, something that works on my three-year-old does not work on my two-year-old. 00:44:20.320 --> 00:44:22.400 And I think every parent knows that because they're individuals. 00:44:22.800 --> 00:44:23.360 They're individuals. 00:44:23.679 --> 00:44:24.000 That's right. 00:44:24.159 --> 00:44:24.559 They're unique. 00:44:25.199 --> 00:44:26.079 And it's the same here. 00:44:26.159 --> 00:44:28.159 It's it's you have to get to know the person's story. 00:44:28.239 --> 00:44:32.079 And to do that, you have to have a personal connection with them before you can help them. 00:44:32.239 --> 00:44:46.960 A lot of people, I think if you went out and surveyed, you know, one of those person on the street interviews, it'd say, if you gave everyone in the world a million bucks, you know, if Elon Musk forked out his dough and we all had a million, he'd probably be more than a million bucks, actually, um, you know, would we all be good and no more poverty? 00:44:47.119 --> 00:44:48.239 A lot of people would say, Yeah. 00:44:48.400 --> 00:44:49.360 And that is not true. 00:44:49.679 --> 00:44:50.800 That is not true. 00:44:51.039 --> 00:45:02.400 And in five years, we'd be right back where we started, and they'd have the same disparities in our classes, and you know, most people would have already squandered their money and we'd be right back in the same place because it's not a money issue. 00:45:02.559 --> 00:45:03.679 Uh it's a personal issue. 00:45:03.920 --> 00:45:04.079 Yeah. 00:45:04.400 --> 00:45:05.599 There is material poverty. 00:45:05.679 --> 00:45:10.880 It is real, but it's, I think in some ways it's the least acute type of poverty. 00:45:11.119 --> 00:45:14.159 Spiritual poverty is much more acute, much more serious. 00:45:14.480 --> 00:45:19.039 And um relational poverty is is so painful and deep. 00:45:19.199 --> 00:45:23.039 We were talking earlier about elderly who are utterly alone or isolated. 00:45:23.360 --> 00:45:30.880 There's there's there's a there's not really a poverty uh in terms of its seriousness, it's acuteness that can compare to that, you know. 00:45:31.519 --> 00:45:38.239 Well, and even with physical poverty, like you're saying, a lack of money, yeah it's it's usually something else is causing that. 00:45:38.480 --> 00:45:38.639 Right. 00:45:38.800 --> 00:45:46.800 And and we know this because uh our friends at work for the living, at work for a living, the the the work training uh group that helps with poverty. 00:45:46.960 --> 00:45:47.199 Yes. 00:45:47.360 --> 00:45:52.400 Uh Ina Richards, the founder of it, always says, if you are discipled, you will be working. 00:45:52.559 --> 00:45:53.519 And it's very true. 00:45:53.679 --> 00:46:06.960 If you're a disciple of Jesus, you're gonna go find a job, you're gonna work, and you're probably not gonna experience physical poverty for very long unless you know some outer outer uh catastrophe affects your life, like a hurricane or your house gets destroyed or something. 00:46:07.360 --> 00:46:12.159 But still, you'll probably be able to figure out a way through that, especially if you have you know a community around you. 00:46:12.320 --> 00:46:23.039 So it's the physical poverty we see usually, and I know I'm painting with a very broad brush here, usually isn't caused purely from you know just a lack of money alone. 00:46:23.440 --> 00:46:24.639 There's some other factor there. 00:46:24.960 --> 00:46:25.519 Is that fair? 00:46:25.760 --> 00:46:27.199 Yeah, no, I think that's right. 00:46:27.440 --> 00:46:28.639 Um let's go on, Luke. 00:46:28.719 --> 00:46:30.800 I don't I don't want to take too much time here today. 00:46:31.119 --> 00:46:32.639 I'd like to get through these ABCs. 00:46:32.719 --> 00:46:35.039 We've talked about affiliation, we've talked about bonding. 00:46:35.280 --> 00:46:37.199 C is categorization. 00:46:37.599 --> 00:46:47.199 Um, and this principle basically says that effective uh compassion has to be discerning and dis well, discerning is the next one, but distinguishing. 00:46:47.280 --> 00:46:51.679 It has to distinguish between, first of all, different contexts. 00:46:51.920 --> 00:46:52.079 Yeah. 00:46:52.239 --> 00:47:14.400 Uh for example, is this person struggling because there's an emergency, uh, a temporary emergency, maybe a flood, drought, hurricane, you know, a war, uh, or maybe they just lost their job, you know, they, you know, just suddenly they're uh suddenly unemployed, you know, versus uh kind of a law a context of long-term development. 00:47:14.559 --> 00:47:16.880 So it's gonna categorize people differently. 00:47:17.039 --> 00:47:18.239 I'll talk about that more in a second. 00:47:18.400 --> 00:47:20.320 It's also that's what I should have done a second ago. 00:47:20.400 --> 00:47:20.559 Yeah. 00:47:20.800 --> 00:47:21.519 You got to categorize. 00:47:22.079 --> 00:47:22.239 Exactly. 00:47:22.320 --> 00:47:24.400 It's gonna categorize people based on the need. 00:47:24.559 --> 00:47:26.719 So not only the context,

but the need. 00:47:26.960 --> 00:47:28.719 Are they temporarily unemployed? 00:47:28.880 --> 00:47:29.840 Are they addicted? 00:47:30.000 --> 00:47:31.760 Are they severely mentally ill? 00:47:31.920 --> 00:47:33.039 Are they abandoned? 00:47:33.199 --> 00:47:34.559 Are they disabled? 00:47:34.880 --> 00:47:42.719 So the basic idea is that different contexts and different needs are going to require different responses. 00:47:42.880 --> 00:47:43.599 That's the key. 00:47:43.679 --> 00:47:46.159 They're gonna require different responses. 00:47:46.559 --> 00:47:50.559 So you have to kind of do some kind of categorizing. 00:47:51.039 --> 00:47:53.519 Let's talk about that first one, the different context. 00:47:53.760 --> 00:48:02.960 This is a really helpful principle that uh uh, you know, I think I just want to make sure that our listeners really understand. 00:48:03.679 --> 00:48:07.920 The the the the biblical compassion is going to ask the question, what's the context? 00:48:08.079 --> 00:48:10.480 Is it and and I want to talk about three. 00:48:10.639 --> 00:48:16.159 I want to talk about emergency relief, rehabilitation, or development. 00:48:16.320 --> 00:48:18.719 Those are three very different contexts. 00:48:18.960 --> 00:48:22.159 So in emergency relief, it's an emergency. 00:48:22.239 --> 00:48:24.800 It's temporary by nature, it's temporary. 00:48:24.960 --> 00:48:27.920 The the the idea here is let's stop the bleeding, right? 00:48:28.159 --> 00:48:31.920 Somebody's really, you know, they're they're really in desperate need. 00:48:32.079 --> 00:48:35.760 So we've got to go and we've got to provide temporary emergency relief. 00:48:35.920 --> 00:48:38.639 So you see this in any kind of disaster war. 00:48:39.119 --> 00:48:44.559 Um, that's really important, right, for for um biblical compassion. 00:48:44.719 --> 00:48:48.239 But that's very different than the next one: rehabilitation. 00:48:48.400 --> 00:48:58.320 Rehabilitation is taking a person who's experienced an emergency, but the emergency has passed, and now it's we're on to restoring. 00:48:58.480 --> 00:49:01.679 How do we begin to restore what's been lost or broken? 00:49:02.000 --> 00:49:03.760 This is also temporary. 00:49:04.239 --> 00:49:07.760 And then the last category or context is development. 00:49:07.920 --> 00:49:15.599 This is a this is a poverty that isn't necessarily due to emergency an emergency disaster kind of situation. 00:49:15.920 --> 00:49:17.679 Um, this is ongoing. 00:49:17.920 --> 00:49:25.920 And then the question here is how do we help people to grow, to be fully restored as God's image bearers? 00:49:26.079 --> 00:49:32.639 I mean, they everyone bears God's image, but um to be the fullness of what God intends as his image bearers. 00:49:33.199 --> 00:49:40.000 So um again, for relief, the goal is to provide essential help quickly to stabilize the situation. 00:49:40.400 --> 00:49:50.000 In rehabilitation, the emphasis shifts from doing things for people to beginning to work with them to restore what's what's been broken. 00:49:50.239 --> 00:50:05.519 And then in the development context, this is an ongoing process of helping hurting people grow and provide for themselves so that they can contribute to others and you know, kind of achieve the fullness of that God-given potential that each person has. 00:50:05.920 --> 00:50:14.239 Um, the emphasis in development is on participation, it's on responsibility, it's on work, and it's in its on increasing independence. 00:50:14.480 --> 00:50:16.719 Now, here's where this becomes really important. 00:50:16.960 --> 00:50:30.320 You often, because these contexts uh we we don't uh we we're not careful to categorize based on these contexts, it's easy to come in and provide emergency relief in a development context, and that's not going to help. 00:50:30.480 --> 00:50:30.719 Okay. 00:50:31.280 --> 00:50:37.920 Yeah, just giving somebody something you know can can lead to dependency, right? 00:50:38.079 --> 00:50:45.599 So we we uh there's a there is a time, a context, where just giving people temp shelter, food is really appropriate. 00:50:45.679 --> 00:50:47.360 That's in an emergency situation. 00:50:47.519 --> 00:50:52.000 But if it's not that context, it's you that kind of help can be really damaging. 00:50:52.239 --> 00:50:56.239 So this is the this is the the biblical compassion is going to ask that. 00:50:56.400 --> 00:50:57.679 What is this context? 00:50:57.760 --> 00:50:59.360 How do we categorize? 00:50:59.679 --> 00:51:01.440 Um, thoughts on that, Luke? 00:51:02.000 --> 00:51:03.199 Oh, I just think that's so important. 00:51:03.280 --> 00:51:05.280 I mean, I'm just thinking of like a local homeless shelter. 00:51:05.360 --> 00:51:08.400 That's probably the first thing you need to do is categorize. 00:51:08.480 --> 00:51:12.960 You know, a lot of people that are homeless on the streets, at least where we live, are addicted to drugs. 00:51:13.039 --> 00:51:13.840 That's the way it is. 00:51:14.000 --> 00:51:14.159 Right. 00:51:14.320 --> 00:51:18.239 That's a very different category than the guy who's out of his work and he's trying to get back on his feet. 00:51:18.480 --> 00:51:18.639 Right. 00:51:18.719 --> 00:51:19.360 And just very different. 00:51:23.360 --> 00:51:26.400 Is it really going to help, you know, that person, you know, exactly. 00:51:27.920 --> 00:51:29.840 So yeah, so we have to categorize. 00:51:30.000 --> 00:51:35.760 And the third, or the the next one, ABCD, fourth, discernment goes along with categorizations. 00:51:35.840 --> 00:51:37.280 We have to discern the root cause. 00:51:37.360 --> 00:51:41.199 What is actually the root of the poverty and the brokenness here? 00:51:41.360 --> 00:51:48.239 Um uh it's not just enough to come upon a person who's struggling with poverty and say, what do you need? 00:51:48.559 --> 00:51:57.199 Um, you know, they may have an answer to that question, but but the biblical principle of

discernment is going to say, what's really at the root of this? 00:51:57.360 --> 00:52:01.039 And again, we saw this in the 1st Timothy passage with the widows, right? 00:52:01.199 --> 00:52:05.599 Paul is asking us to discern between different kinds of widows, right? 00:52:05.679 --> 00:52:07.280 Um, what's really going on here? 00:52:07.440 --> 00:52:11.039 Are they poor because they're just lazy and kind of mooching off of others? 00:52:11.519 --> 00:52:12.079 Idle? 00:52:12.320 --> 00:52:17.360 Or are they poor because they are really alone and isolated and they don't have anyone to help? 00:52:17.519 --> 00:52:19.280 So, so discernment. 00:52:19.599 --> 00:52:42.400 Um and I think for us, Luke, uh the the question that I think is important to ask here when we're talking about root causes of poverty um is oh, what again, we talk about this a lot in terms of worldview, you know, that uh truth at the level of worldview is going to lead to positive outcomes. 00:52:42.559 --> 00:52:50.079 It's going to lead to positive outcomes at the level of values, behaviors, and consequences, that tree that we always show. 00:52:50.480 --> 00:52:56.800 But lies at the level of root, at the level of the root, are going to lead to poverty and brokenness. 00:52:57.199 --> 00:53:09.119 And so a good example of this is the story we tell often in the DNA, the story of Arturo, Arturo's uh work in um the highlands of Guatemala, in a very impoverished community. 00:53:09.199 --> 00:53:14.000 Arturo Cuba, a good friend from uh Peru, who was a missionary in Guatemala. 00:53:14.320 --> 00:53:19.440 And he was working amongst the Pokemchi, very impoverished group of indigenous farmers. 00:53:19.679 --> 00:53:27.920 They were Christians, um, but they had high degrees in their community of malnutrition, undernutrition. 00:53:28.079 --> 00:53:30.480 Often the children would die before the age of five. 00:53:30.559 --> 00:53:32.000 It was very tragic. 00:53:33.119 --> 00:53:35.679 So Arturo asked the question, what's the root? 00:53:35.840 --> 00:53:39.039 You know, what why are these, what, what, why are these people so poor? 00:53:39.199 --> 00:53:51.599 And as he got down to it and really lived with them, bonded with them, and asked, you know, the hard questions, he discerned that the the root of this was a lie. 00:53:51.760 --> 00:54:00.159 And that lie was that um that you know, that rats essentially uh are more powerful than we are. 00:54:00.480 --> 00:54:04.480 And these farmers were allowing rats to eat half of the corn crop every year. 00:54:04.559 --> 00:54:09.440 And that that was why the children were hungry and there was so much malnourishment in that community. 00:54:09.679 --> 00:54:19.360 Well, that's a lie, and he got to the root of that by challenging the lie with the truth, you know, and the skit, you know, that we talk often about, you know, who's who has dominion here? 00:54:19.519 --> 00:54:20.239 You are the rats. 00:54:20.320 --> 00:54:30.559 And and then when the dawn, when the uh when the uh when the truth dawned on them, you know, they were the ones that came up with their own solutions to that by protecting their corn crop. 00:54:30.880 --> 00:54:38.000 So biblical uh compassion's always gonna be asking, what, you know, it's gonna ask a question like this, what lie is at the root? 00:54:38.159 --> 00:54:41.679 Is there a lie at the root of the poverty and the brokenness? 00:54:42.079 --> 00:54:44.400 It's not enough just to treat the symptoms, right? 00:54:44.800 --> 00:54:48.159 We have to go down deeper, you know, to the root causes. 00:54:48.320 --> 00:54:53.599 And if it's if it's a lie that's at the root, then we can't just deal with the symptoms. 00:54:53.679 --> 00:54:56.480 We've got to replace the the lie with the truth. 00:54:56.559 --> 00:55:00.239 And that's gonna result in the the change that we're looking for. 00:55:00.400 --> 00:55:03.440 So so that's this principle of discernment, Luke. 00:55:03.519 --> 00:55:03.840 Yeah. 00:55:04.320 --> 00:55:05.679 Any thoughts on that? 00:55:06.320 --> 00:55:07.440 Ideas have consequences. 00:55:07.840 --> 00:55:09.519 Ideas have consequences, exactly. 00:55:09.760 --> 00:55:10.000 Exactly. 00:55:10.320 --> 00:55:22.159 And this is why we have a tree on our logo of this podcast, is because we're trying to treat the the root causes down here, the ideas, the worldview, which will turn into behaviors and values and actions. 00:55:22.480 --> 00:55:28.320 But you can't just treat things at the level of actions because it's not actually gonna uh you know change the root right now. 00:55:28.719 --> 00:55:31.119 Behavior has long-term immediate needs, exactly. 00:55:31.519 --> 00:55:32.800 Yeah, have a long-term change. 00:55:32.880 --> 00:55:35.280 So you gotta attack it at the level of ideas, worldviews. 00:55:35.679 --> 00:55:36.079 Perfect. 00:55:36.239 --> 00:55:36.800 Yeah. 00:55:37.119 --> 00:55:46.960 All right, let's go on to the um the next two, which I'm gonna lump together under employment, E, employment, and f freedom. 00:55:47.199 --> 00:55:56.639 And this principle basically says that able-bodied people should be encouraged to productive work and not to dependency. 00:55:57.119 --> 00:56:01.519 Um and dependency is here the opposite of freedom. 00:56:01.679 --> 00:56:08.719 Uh, freedom is being independent, caring for yourselves, and not being dependent on others. 00:56:08.880 --> 00:56:12.559 It's it's a form dependency really is in some ways a form of slavery. 00:56:13.039 --> 00:56:21.519 So the biblical principle is to say uh how can we help people who are able-bodied be encouraged towards productive work? 00:56:22.000 --> 00:56:33.360 So the question that it's going to ask is: will the help that I'm providing, will it foster dependency or will it lead to greater freedom and personal responsibility? 00:56:33.679 --> 00:56:35.920 Um, I have quite a bit to say on this one. 00:56:36.000 --> 00:56:40.960 I just want to go

through some of this fairly quickly because this is where we get into work. 00:56:41.199 --> 00:56:46.239 And boy, the Bible has a lot to say about work and the goodness of work. 00:56:46.320 --> 00:56:51.280 And it begins uh, you know, way back in Genesis with God Himself. 00:56:51.360 --> 00:56:52.880 Uh, God is a working God. 00:56:52.960 --> 00:56:58.559 It says in Genesis 2, 2 through 3, by the seventh day God finished the work that he had been doing. 00:56:58.719 --> 00:57:01.119 And on the seventh day he rested from all of his work. 00:57:01.360 --> 00:57:05.920 So God works, he creates, he created everything that exists. 00:57:06.079 --> 00:57:06.960 He's a working God. 00:57:07.199 --> 00:57:09.840 Work is good, work is part of what God does. 00:57:10.079 --> 00:57:14.960 And consequently, when God creates human beings in his image, uh, guess what? 00:57:15.119 --> 00:57:19.440 He creates us to work, because that's part of what it means to bear God's image. 00:57:19.599 --> 00:57:21.840 Uh, Genesis 1, 27 and 28. 00:57:22.079 --> 00:57:36.239 God created mankind in his own image, male and female, and he blessed them and he said, Be fruitful, increase in number, fill the earth, subdue it, rule over the fish of the sea, and the birds of the sky, and every living creature that moves on the ground. 00:57:36.320 --> 00:57:37.440 You can see the work here. 00:57:37.599 --> 00:57:40.480 God's giving us work to do in his creation. 00:57:40.719 --> 00:57:42.559 Be fruitful, increase in number. 00:57:42.800 --> 00:57:44.639 Do the work that you're doing right now, Luke. 00:57:44.719 --> 00:57:45.760 Raise families, right? 00:57:45.840 --> 00:57:46.880 That's a lot of work. 00:57:47.840 --> 00:57:53.679 Fill the earth, subdue it, rule over the fish of the sea, govern this creation, create new innovations. 00:57:54.000 --> 00:57:58.719 So this is kind of the biblical picture of work and why it's so important. 00:57:59.199 --> 00:58:01.519 Um, it's part of our created purpose. 00:58:01.679 --> 00:58:05.039 This is it's an expression of being an image bearer of God. 00:58:05.440 --> 00:58:15.599 Um, it's work is stewardship, it's taking the things that God owns and it's uh as stewards of that, cultivating it for its full potential. 00:58:15.840 --> 00:58:31.360 Um work is loving service, it's actually meeting real human needs uh and expressing love for our neighbors through our hard work so that we have something to give to meet needs of others. 00:58:31.519 --> 00:58:34.960 Um and then biblically, work is even worship. 00:58:35.119 --> 00:58:41.679 This biblical word, uh this Hebrew word avoda, it's a word that can mean work, service, and worship. 00:58:41.840 --> 00:58:49.119 And the idea is that our work can become an act of service, and when that's offered faithfully to God, it becomes an expression of worship. 00:58:49.280 --> 00:58:51.199 This is this is really powerful. 00:58:51.280 --> 00:59:01.920 You know, Darrow talks often about the um woman, you know, who has a sign in her kitchen, and the sign says worship service is held here three times a day. 00:59:02.559 --> 00:59:14.320 This is a uniquely biblical idea that the work that she's doing to provide, excuse me, for her children and her husband in the home, preparing nutritious meals is actually worship of the living God. 00:59:14.719 --> 00:59:27.519 So all that to say this there's such a deep, rich biblical theology of work that uh you just have to kind of uh appreciate that a little bit as we as we look at this principle. 00:59:28.079 --> 00:59:38.159 Um applying it to work amongst the poor, uh, biblical compassion is always going to ask this question: what can this person contribute? 00:59:38.320 --> 00:59:39.360 What can they do? 00:59:39.519 --> 00:59:44.239 It starts with that, not what can I do for them, but what can they do? 00:59:44.639 --> 00:59:51.199 Um never do for someone what they have the God-given capacity and responsibility to do for themselves. 00:59:51.360 --> 00:59:52.800 This is a biblical idea. 00:59:53.280 --> 01:00:04.400 And the opposite of that is that we harm the poor when our compassion unintentionally strips them of the opportunity and the responsibility to work. 01:00:04.559 --> 01:00:18.159 Um, our good friends at the Chalmers Center, uh, Brian Fickert, Steve uh Corbett, um, when they wrote their really excellent book, When Helping Hurts, this is really what they kind of settled on, this really important principle. 01:00:18.559 --> 01:00:38.000 And amongst other key takeaways from that great book, which I encourage all of our listeners to read, When Helping Hurts, um, is that in the name of compassion, we can actually hurt, we can harm the poor if we communicate number one, you're deficient, I'm a provider. 01:00:38.480 --> 01:00:43.440 Number two, you are a recipient or a beneficiary, and I am the one who contributes. 01:00:44.079 --> 01:00:47.440 And number three, you have needs and I have resources. 01:00:47.679 --> 01:00:55.119 If we treat the poor in that way, um, we can actually harm them in the name of compassion. 01:00:55.679 --> 01:01:01.679 So, and and not only do we harm them, but we create a dependency. 01:01:01.920 --> 01:01:07.039 So they are not free, they're dependent on us or the government. 01:01:07.360 --> 01:01:14.480 So biblical compassion is always going to help people to work, to contribute, to provide for themselves. 01:01:15.119 --> 01:01:18.719 Um and this is so deeply biblical. 01:01:18.800 --> 01:01:20.960 Um, everyone has a need to contribute. 01:01:21.119 --> 01:01:27.519 Again, it's our it's our imago day, it's our image, it's it's what it means to be a human being, a an image bearer of God. 01:01:27.599 --> 01:01:34.639 It's it says to the person that I can meet legitimate needs, I can provide for people. 01:01:34.880 --> 01:01:39.199 Uh that that you you gain a sense of your humanity when you see that. 01:01:39.360 --> 01:01:43.039 It's not just that I I you know

animals are fed, right? 01:01:43.119 --> 01:01:46.320 We feed animals, we feed the livestock or whatever it is. 01:01:46.719 --> 01:01:50.079 Human beings can work and provide for others. 01:01:50.239 --> 01:01:53.280 That's part of what it means to be a human being and not an animal. 01:01:53.519 --> 01:01:59.039 Um uh my work, I have something to contribute that provides dignity, right? 01:01:59.119 --> 01:02:01.039 I'm capable of contributing. 01:02:01.199 --> 01:02:04.480 Uh that also uh underscores responsibility. 01:02:04.639 --> 01:02:06.320 Others depend on me. 01:02:06.639 --> 01:02:11.119 Uh service, my work benefits my neighbor, um, etc. 01:02:11.360 --> 01:02:12.239 and et cetera. 01:02:12.559 --> 01:02:28.880 So um basically the bottom line is never foster dependency or entitlement with the kind of help that we're providing, but always work towards helping a person become free, independent, and give them the dignity of work. 01:02:28.960 --> 01:02:30.400 Again, not everyone can work. 01:02:30.559 --> 01:02:35.519 I understand that there's people that have disabilities that prevent them from being able to do that. 01:02:35.679 --> 01:02:43.280 But if if most people don't are able, and uh even people with different kinds of disabilities are able to work and contribute. 01:02:43.440 --> 01:02:46.800 So biblically, that's always going to be something we've got to work for. 01:02:47.039 --> 01:02:48.800 A lot there, Luke, on that one. 01:02:48.880 --> 01:02:50.559 Um, we're almost done. 01:02:50.719 --> 01:02:54.079 Um, but just any quick reactions or thoughts on on all of that? 01:02:54.400 --> 01:02:58.480 Uh I just think of AI, you know, right now, and I think of a lot of the creators behind AI. 01:02:58.639 --> 01:03:05.599 I think their incentive for creating it is essentially their worldview says humans are animals. 01:03:06.000 --> 01:03:10.559 So if we can take the work away from humans and just feed the animals, then they'll be happy. 01:03:10.800 --> 01:03:12.719 Uh I'm all I I I like AI. 01:03:12.880 --> 01:03:16.159 I think it's going to be an interesting, you know, part of the future landscape. 01:03:16.239 --> 01:03:17.280 It's not going away. 01:03:17.519 --> 01:03:23.199 Uh and using it to create shortcuts is fine, but how you fill those shortcuts is my question. 01:03:23.280 --> 01:03:28.320 So a lot of people want to create shortcuts so that they can have more sloth, more slothful time, less work. 01:03:28.559 --> 01:03:28.880 Yes. 01:03:29.199 --> 01:03:34.960 But if you use it as a tool to give you more time to do other work, great, that's fine. 01:03:35.119 --> 01:03:40.880 You know, but this idea of letting AI eventually do everything for us, not a biblical concept, not good. 01:03:40.960 --> 01:03:41.519 You want to avoid that? 01:03:41.840 --> 01:03:45.360 Oh, it's gonna it's gonna create immense harm, you know. 01:03:45.440 --> 01:03:47.119 And uh, you're totally right, Luke. 01:03:47.199 --> 01:03:51.360 I think

uh a lot of these, like I think of Elon Musk, he talks this way often. 01:03:51.440 --> 01:04:00.159 He just says, hey, I'm looking into the future and I see a future where AI, robots, they're going to do almost all the work that needs to be done. 01:04:00.400 --> 01:04:02.480 So what do we do with human beings then? 01:04:02.639 --> 01:04:08.320 Well, they need to be given as what did you call it, Luke, uh this basic income? 01:04:08.400 --> 01:04:08.880 What do you call it? 01:04:09.119 --> 01:04:09.760 Universal basic income. 01:04:10.079 --> 01:04:10.880 Universal basic income. 01:04:10.960 --> 01:04:18.800 Just give them on and keep them happy so that they can eat and and and then yeah, put them in front of a TV or some kind of form of entertainment. 01:04:18.960 --> 01:04:21.280 It's very much this brave new world idea, right? 01:04:21.360 --> 01:04:27.599 Just keep them distracted, keep them entertained, um, and and then this'll be good. 01:04:27.760 --> 01:04:28.880 This will be good. 01:04:29.199 --> 01:04:33.840 I whenever I hear that, I'm like, yeah, this is it's such a clash of worldviews, right? 01:04:34.000 --> 01:04:41.760 Because the bib the Bible says, no, people will be miserable because God created us to work and to contribute, right? 01:04:41.920 --> 01:04:47.360 And if you strip that from people, uh it's not gonna go well, you know, at all. 01:04:47.519 --> 01:04:57.519 And um, so I think that's a that's something that Christians need to speak up for quite forcefully based on just what does it mean to be a human being in a biblical theology of work. 01:04:57.679 --> 01:05:08.239 Everybody longs to contribute, you know, have that dignity, that agency that comes from meeting legitimate needs, serving other people because of their work, right? 01:05:08.480 --> 01:05:10.400 Creating new things, you know. 01:05:10.639 --> 01:05:14.960 So, yeah, that really has to factor into this whole AI discussion 100%. 01:05:16.880 --> 01:05:18.320 Last thing, and I'll be done. 01:05:18.400 --> 01:05:28.480 Um, A, B, C, D, E, F, G, and this one's the last, but it is the most important, and that is God, that poverty is ultimately rooted in that alienation from God. 01:05:28.559 --> 01:05:35.360 So Christian approaches to poverty fighting have to work to help restore and re-establish that. 01:05:35.599 --> 01:05:38.079 Um, people need to know the Lord. 01:05:38.239 --> 01:05:40.639 They need, we we need to share the gospel. 01:05:40.800 --> 01:05:43.840 That that needs to be a part of the work we do with the poor. 01:05:43.920 --> 01:05:45.280 That's not separate. 01:05:45.440 --> 01:05:50.880 Um, that that that's integrally a part of the work that we do when we're helping the poor. 01:05:51.039 --> 01:05:56.800 And you see this, I think, i in a really acute way when you're dealing with a problem like drug addiction. 01:05:57.119 --> 01:06:03.599 Um, you know, you can get people Off of drugs through rehabilitation, different kinds of programs. 01:06:03.840 --> 01:06:07.760 But to overcome an addiction is almost humanly impossible. 01:06:08.000 --> 01:06:10.559 And this is where you need supernatural strength. 01:06:10.719 --> 01:06:12.400 You need power, right, from God. 01:06:12.480 --> 01:06:18.480 And in order to get that kind of power, you have to be your relationship with God has to be re-established. 01:06:18.559 --> 01:06:21.039 You literally need to be filled with God's spirit. 01:06:21.360 --> 01:06:28.880 And then you have the motivation, the power that only comes from having that first and most basic relationship restored. 01:06:29.199 --> 01:06:47.360 So again, much more to be said about that, but but no approach, biblical approach to poverty fighting or compassion would be uh complete in any way unless that most basic relationship was addressed and there was work done to restore people in that relationship. 01:06:47.679 --> 01:06:49.360 So that that's a lot, Luke. 01:06:49.519 --> 01:06:56.159 But I those are some of the most important lessons, principles that we have learned over the years. 01:06:56.320 --> 01:07:01.760 There is a very uniquely biblical approach to working with the poor. 01:07:02.000 --> 01:07:08.639 And because it's biblical, because it's from the the God's holy word, it's revealed, it is effective. 01:07:08.719 --> 01:07:10.239 In other words, it it works, right? 01:07:10.320 --> 01:07:19.280 You know, and it you know, this is this is what you were talking about proverbs earlier, applying God's word, the application of God's word it has a practical effect. 01:07:20.000 --> 01:07:28.079 It doesn't work like magic, you know, that but it tends to have positive outcomes when you apply these principles, these biblical principles. 01:07:28.159 --> 01:07:38.159 And it's gonna look very different if you are starting from a non-biblical worldview and you're you're working from a different foundation in terms of poverty alleviation. 01:07:38.239 --> 01:07:41.519 That's what we're gonna get into on our next, our next episode on this loop. 01:07:41.920 --> 01:07:42.320 Yep. 01:07:42.559 --> 01:07:45.119 Yep, we are gonna get into that next episode, so stay tuned. 01:07:45.199 --> 01:07:46.880 That episode will be out next Tuesday. 01:07:47.039 --> 01:07:53.440 Um, but yeah, what what you were just saying about uh kind of pulling principles from the Bible and applying them into a specific topic like poverty. 01:07:53.519 --> 01:08:02.800 This is what we do with the disciple nations all the time, kind of discipleship, but at the level of culture, so taking a cultural topic, issue, whatever it is, and then seeing what the Bible says about it. 01:08:02.960 --> 01:08:04.480 It's not very hard like we did today. 01:08:04.559 --> 01:08:06.639 We we we started this with three verses. 01:08:06.880 --> 01:08:12.239 Uh we we used more than those, but most of those principles were pulled from that one in Second Thessalonians. 01:08:13.199 --> 01:08:13.760 What was that?

01:08:13.920 --> 01:08:16.399 2 Thessalonians 3, 6 through 12. 01:08:16.880 --> 01:08:17.119 Exactly. 01:08:17.439 --> 01:08:20.640 Ephesians 4, 28, 1 Timothy 5, 3 through 16. 01:08:21.199 --> 01:08:43.680 Again, there's many more, and so you can't just, you know, kind of pick three verses and say our passages, but but but but but yeah, go to the scriptures, glean it, mind the scriptures, especially paying attention to the first, I think the first couple of chapters of Genesis, because this is always the way that you know we're going back to the way God originally created things and intends them to be. 01:08:43.920 --> 01:08:49.920 So all of our work has to, in a sense, be trying to get back to that, you know, what what was that original intention of God? 01:08:50.319 --> 01:08:52.079 So that's great. 01:08:52.319 --> 01:08:53.359 Yeah, I enjoyed that, Dad. 01:08:53.520 --> 01:08:54.640 I like the way you broke that down. 01:08:54.800 --> 01:08:55.760 That was super helpful. 01:08:55.920 --> 01:08:59.279 I was taking notes, and I hope you guys listening were as well. 01:08:59.520 --> 01:09:09.600 Um, this is something that all of us uh have a part to play in uh because we live in a world that has fallen and broken for most of us around 60 to 80 years of our life. 01:09:09.680 --> 01:09:17.520 So, what are we gonna do with that time and uh hopefully you know bring a little bit of God's truth, goodness, and beauty into this world and seek to bless those around us? 01:09:17.680 --> 01:09:18.800 That's what we're here for. 01:09:18.960 --> 01:09:22.880 So figuring out how to do that practically is what we're trying to do here. 01:09:22.960 --> 01:09:28.159 Uh, I definitely know I've have some application points I need to apply into my life. 01:09:28.239 --> 01:09:29.840 And there and me too, Luke. 01:09:29.920 --> 01:09:30.159 Me too. 01:09:30.239 --> 01:09:31.920 It's all talking about that I guess next time. 01:09:33.680 --> 01:09:38.079 You're like, okay, am I doing now that I know, am I doing what I should be doing on in this area? 01:09:38.239 --> 01:09:38.399 Yeah. 01:09:38.640 --> 01:09:39.840 Yeah, take a look in the mirror. 01:09:39.920 --> 01:09:40.319 It's good. 01:09:40.800 --> 01:09:43.359 All right, anything else you want to add before concluding, Dad? 01:09:43.680 --> 01:09:44.640 No, that's it. 01:09:44.800 --> 01:09:45.279 That's it. 01:09:45.439 --> 01:09:48.880 Um and I hope it was helpful for for folks that are listening again. 01:09:48.960 --> 01:09:52.560 Much more that could be said, but I think these are really foundational kind of ideas. 01:09:52.640 --> 01:09:54.800 And I again I hope that this has been helpful. 01:09:55.119 --> 01:09:55.520 Awesome. 01:09:55.600 --> 01:10:01.199 And if you guys listening have any questions, comments uh about today's uh episode, we would love to hear those. 01:10:01.359 --> 01:10:10.720 Again, if you guys want to reach out to us, you can uh reach us at our email, which is info at disciple nations.org, or you can find us on social media. 01:10:10.800 --> 01:10:12.560 We are the Disciple Nations Alliance. 01:10:12.640 --> 01:10:14.479 That's the ministry behind this podcast. 01:10:14.640 --> 01:10:17.359 And this podcast is again Ideas Have Consequences. 01:10:17.439 --> 01:10:18.479 Thanks again for listening, everyone. 01:10:18.560 --> 01:10:19.680 Have a great week.