התמלול המלא של Intermittent Fasting to Improve Health, Cognition & Longevity | Dr. Satchin Panda

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WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.320 --> 00:00:03.359 Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science 2 00:00:03.640 --> 00:00:10.160 and science based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, 3 00:00:10.240 --> 00:00:13.599 and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford 4 00:00:13.679 --> 00:00:17.239 School of Medicine. Today my guest is doctor Sachin Panda. 5 00:00:17.359 --> 00:00:20.280 Doctor Sachin Panda is a professor and director of the 6 00:00:20.320 --> 00:00:24.320 Regulatory Biology Laboratory at the Salk Institute of Biological Studies. 7 00:00:24.960 --> 00:00:29.039 His laboratory has made numerous important contributions that impact mental health, 8 00:00:29.039 --> 00:00:33.159 physical health, and human performance. For instance, his laboratory discovered 9 00:00:33.479 --> 00:00:36.240 the neurons in the eye end neurons within the brain 10 00:00:36.600 --> 00:00:39.960 that regulate our so called circadian rhythms. Circadian rhythms are 11 00:00:40.000 --> 00:00:42.520 twenty four hour rhythms and everything from gene expression to 12 00:00:42.560 --> 00:00:46.640 the overall functioning of tissues, our levels of mood and alertness, 13 00:00:46.960 --> 00:00:50.840 our ability to sleep, appetite, and much much more. In addition, 14 00:00:50.920 --> 00:00:54.119 over the last decade, doctor Panda's laboratory has made critical 15 00:00:54.119 --> 00:00:57.520 discoveries in terms of how our patterns of eating over 16 00:00:57.640 --> 00:01:01.479 time impact our biology and our health. In particular, his 17 00:01:01.600 --> 00:01:05.840 laboratory pioneer discoveries related to so called intermittent fasting, also 18 00:01:05.879 --> 00:01:09.200 sometimes referred to as time restricted feeding. Today, doctor Panda 19 00:01:09.200 --> 00:01:12.680 and I discuss how our circadian behaviors, everything from when 20 00:01:12.719 --> 00:01:15.000 we wake up to when we view light, to when 21 00:01:15.040 --> 00:01:18.040 we avoid viewing light, to when we eat and what 22 00:01:18.200 --> 00:01:22.280 we eat, and when we socialize and how we socialize, 23 00:01:22.480 --> 00:01:26.640 impacts our biology and our psychology, and how all of 24 00:01:26.680 --> 00:01:30.799 that has a strong impact on our health. During today's discussion, 25 00:01:30.799 --> 00:01:33.959 you will learn how restricting your feeding to specific periods 26 00:01:34.000 --> 00:01:37.439 within each twenty four hour cycle, or perhaps even exploring 27 00:01:37.640 --> 00:01:42.079 longer patterns of fasting and eating cycles, can impact everything 28 00:01:42.159 --> 00:01:44.599 from the health of your liver to your gut to 29 00:01:44.640 --> 00:01:47.200 your brain, and how all of that impacts things like 30 00:01:47.319 --> 00:01:51.799 mood and your ability to perform cognitive work. Indeed, today's 31 00:01:51.799 --> 00:01:55.959 discussion goes deep into all aspects of intermittent fasting aka 32 00:01:56.000 --> 00:01:59.680 time restricted feeding. We talk about za basic science as 33 00:01:59.719 --> 00:02:02.439 well as as the recent clinical trials that have explored 34 00:02:02.439 --> 00:02:07.760 time restricted feeding in a diverse range of people, including men, women, children, 35 00:02:07.799 --> 00:02:11.000 people with diabetes, people who are otherwise healthy, and much 36 00:02:11.080 --> 00:02:14.599 much more. I'm quite aware that intermittent fasting is a 37 00:02:14.639 --> 00:02:17.560 topic of much debate these days. We go deep into 38 00:02:17.560 --> 00:02:19.960 that debate and by the end of today's discussion, you 39 00:02:20.039 --> 00:02:22.479 can be certain that you will have learned all the 40 00:02:22.599 --> 00:02:25.800 latest and all the details, all made very clear to 41 00:02:25.840 --> 00:02:30.000 you thanks to the incredible expertise, discovery, and clear communication 42 00:02:30.199 --> 00:02:32.599 of doctor Panda. As some of you may already know, 43 00:02:32.680 --> 00:02:35.840 doctor Panda has authored several important books on the topic 44 00:02:35.879 --> 00:02:39.240 of intermittent fasting and how it can benefit various aspects 45 00:02:39.240 --> 00:02:42.520 of health. Those books include The Circadian Code and a 46 00:02:42.520 --> 00:02:46.000 more recent book, The Circadian Diabetes Code, both of which 47 00:02:46.000 --> 00:02:49.360 we've provided links to in the show note captions. In addition, 48 00:02:49.400 --> 00:02:51.240 if any of you are interested in learning more about 49 00:02:51.240 --> 00:02:55.479 doctor Panda's work, including seeing his publications and reading those publications, 50 00:02:55.879 --> 00:02:58.639 or supporting his laboratory, you can do that by going 51 00:02:58.639 --> 00:03:01.080 to his laboratory website, which we have also linked in 52 00:03:01.120 --> 00:03:03.479 the show note captions. Before we begin, i'd like to 53 00:03:03.520 --> 00:03:06.080 emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and 54 00:03:06.120 --> 00:03:08.719 research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my 55 00:03:08.759 --> 00:03:11.599 desired and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information 56 00:03:11.680 --> 00:03:14.479 about science and science related tools to the general public, 57 00:03:14.800 --> 00:03:16.520 and keeping with that theme, i'd like to thank the 58 00:03:16.560 --> 00:03:20.159 sponsors of today's podcast, and now for my discussion with 59 00:03:20.280 --> 00:03:23.879 doctor Sachin Panda, Sachin doctor Panda. So good to see 60 00:03:23.879 --> 00:03:24.240 you again. 61 00:03:24.360 --> 00:03:25.280 Yeah, good to see you. 62 00:03:25.479 --> 00:03:28.319 We are colleagues still, but we used to be right 63 00:03:28.319 --> 00:03:29.479 across the street from one another. 64 00:03:29.719 --> 00:03:31.039 Yeah those days. 65 00:03:31.120 --> 00:03:34.039 Yeah, yeah, So I'm delighted that you're here. I think 66 00:03:34.039 --> 00:03:36.479 we're going to

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talk about a number of things, mainly 67 00:03:37.360 --> 00:03:40.439 intermittent fasting, time restricted feeding, and health, but also the 68 00:03:40.759 --> 00:03:43.759 many other things that you're doing. Just before we started recording, 69 00:03:44.319 --> 00:03:49.000 we were discussing your recent paper in Nature that involved 70 00:03:49.000 --> 00:03:51.680 recordings from post mortem human retina. So maybe if there's 71 00:03:51.680 --> 00:03:54.120 time at the end, we can get back to your 72 00:03:54.199 --> 00:03:57.960 lab has shown that it can essentially maintain or resurrect 73 00:03:58.000 --> 00:04:04.520 neurons from dead people in order to potentially and eventually 74 00:04:04.960 --> 00:04:07.719 provide transplants to rescue vision and the blind. So that's 75 00:04:07.800 --> 00:04:10.599 extremely exciting, but of course not the main focus of 76 00:04:10.599 --> 00:04:14.680 today's discussion, so I'll have to split it up. The 77 00:04:14.800 --> 00:04:17.720 first question I have is how am I supposed to 78 00:04:17.720 --> 00:04:22.399 define fasting and time restricted feeding? Meaning when I go 79 00:04:22.439 --> 00:04:25.160 to sleep every night, I'm not eating. So in some 80 00:04:25.199 --> 00:04:29.319 sense everybody is doing time restricted feeding to some degree 81 00:04:29.360 --> 00:04:32.279 or another. At what point can we start thinking about 82 00:04:32.680 --> 00:04:35.439 a pattern of eating. Is time restricted feeding so called 83 00:04:35.480 --> 00:04:38.680 intermittent fasting? Does it have to do with how regular 84 00:04:38.800 --> 00:04:41.879 one is about the start and stop times? How do 85 00:04:41.959 --> 00:04:47.160 you think about defining intermittent fasting time restrictive feeding? And 86 00:04:47.199 --> 00:04:50.959 maybe just to simplify the conversation, is one term more 87 00:04:51.199 --> 00:04:54.199 correct than the other in terms of describing this incredible 88 00:04:54.240 --> 00:04:55.360 pattern of feeding. 89 00:04:56.199 --> 00:05:02.879 Well, you know that interpreted fasting covers many high surb fasting. Actually, 90 00:05:02.920 --> 00:05:06.480 it started a long time ago and it's embedded into 91 00:05:06.480 --> 00:05:11.319 the history of caloric restriction. Almost one hundred years ago, 92 00:05:11.360 --> 00:05:15.399 people showed that if you reduce calorie intake in a rat, 93 00:05:15.600 --> 00:05:18.560 then that rat can leave for a long time. And 94 00:05:18.680 --> 00:05:22.240 in those experiments, the calories were reduced every single day, 95 00:05:23.199 --> 00:05:25.439 and that led to the idea that if we cut 96 00:05:25.519 --> 00:05:30.399 down our calories by twenty percent, say, then we can 97 00:05:30.439 --> 00:05:35.160 potentially live longer by doing two things. One is preventing 98 00:05:35.839 --> 00:05:39.480 is related disease or even if we follow us fall sick, 99 00:05:39.720 --> 00:05:44.600 maybe we can accelerate cure and keep the

repair mechanism 100 00:05:45.120 --> 00:05:48.879 going so that we can live longer. But it was 101 00:05:49.040 --> 00:05:54.279 very difficult to count calories every day and reduce maintain that. 102 00:05:56.560 --> 00:05:59.839 I must say that it's not that calorie restriction is impossible, 103 00:06:00.120 --> 00:06:03.000 we are not doing it. In fact, a lot of 104 00:06:03.079 --> 00:06:07.759 us we do count calories in our subconscious mind, and 105 00:06:07.879 --> 00:06:09.959 so every time you took out it you take out, 106 00:06:10.040 --> 00:06:12.639 we take out a soda bottle or something. I'm looking 107 00:06:12.639 --> 00:06:17.720 at it. Okay, sixty thirtyerochylocal we're doing that. So the 108 00:06:17.759 --> 00:06:21.120 point is it's it's we're doing subconsciously some kind of 109 00:06:21.279 --> 00:06:26.600 calorie counting. But reducing calorie by twenty to thirty percent 110 00:06:26.800 --> 00:06:29.639 every single day is not possible for many people. So 111 00:06:29.720 --> 00:06:34.399 then the idea came in mouse and rat experiment whether 112 00:06:34.800 --> 00:06:40.600 they can eat every other day, And in fact, this 113 00:06:40.879 --> 00:06:45.639 every other day feeding also led to very similar almost 114 00:06:45.639 --> 00:06:53.639 equivalent health improvement as continuous calory restriction. So then the 115 00:06:53.720 --> 00:06:56.600 idea was, well every other day is a little bit 116 00:06:56.639 --> 00:06:59.680 hard for humans, but just imagine I'd just get to 117 00:06:59.680 --> 00:07:03.800 eat only one day and then another day. Then the 118 00:07:03.839 --> 00:07:07.920 idea cam, well, for humans, can they eat less for 119 00:07:08.160 --> 00:07:11.360 one or two days in the week. So that led 120 00:07:11.399 --> 00:07:13.519 to this five two diet where people who can eat 121 00:07:13.560 --> 00:07:15.519 for five days and then two days that have to 122 00:07:15.600 --> 00:07:20.959 reduce calories. So that's also intermittently people are fasting. Then 123 00:07:20.959 --> 00:07:24.000 as you know, Walter Longo also came with this idea 124 00:07:24.040 --> 00:07:26.720 that period fasting, maybe four or five days in every 125 00:07:26.839 --> 00:07:29.519 month or two months three months, you can fast or 126 00:07:29.519 --> 00:07:34.879 reduce gallery. And he also found many benefits of calory restriction. 127 00:07:35.519 --> 00:07:38.000 Was there were those studies on humans. 128 00:07:38.800 --> 00:07:42.560 Many of the studies started it in mice, but alternate 129 00:07:42.639 --> 00:07:47.560 day fasting five to two and Walter's period fast fasting, 130 00:07:47.639 --> 00:07:50.279 all of them have now been done in humans. Not 131 00:07:50.319 --> 00:07:53.480 for longevity, of course, because I cannot do those for 132 00:07:53.519 --> 00:07:57.879 a long time, but for weight maintenance, for reducing some 133 00:07:58.040 --> 00:08:00.839 signs of aging or reversing those things have been done. 134 00:08:00.879 --> 00:08:04.040 So all of them have been done in humans, mostly 135 00:08:04.079 --> 00:08:08.720 healthy humans and in some cases people with pre diabetes 136 00:08:09.120 --> 00:08:12.040 or some aspects of metabolies. So that led to the 137 00:08:12.040 --> 00:08:18.120 idea that all these forms are fasting in which the 138 00:08:18.279 --> 00:08:23.160 total calory can take on any given day is reduced 139 00:08:23.439 --> 00:08:26.120 for one or more days in a week, a month. 140 00:08:26.839 --> 00:08:32.000 That became that umbrella tom became intimittent fasting. So if 141 00:08:32.039 --> 00:08:37.919 you look up the scientific literature, most intermittent fasting involves 142 00:08:38.120 --> 00:08:42.879 intentionally reducing calories for at least one or two days 143 00:08:42.879 --> 00:08:46.799 in a week, or a few days in a month. 144 00:08:47.960 --> 00:08:53.759 So when we publish time restricted feeding, the initial mouse 145 00:08:53.799 --> 00:08:57.240 experiments and even now most of the mouse experiments, we 146 00:08:57.320 --> 00:09:00.440 want to test what is the impact of time restriction 147 00:09:00.559 --> 00:09:04.600 versus calorie restriction. So in these experiments, we don't reduce 148 00:09:04.639 --> 00:09:08.679 calorie on any day of mouth's life. So the mice 149 00:09:08.879 --> 00:09:11.919 is the same number of calories as they add libtum 150 00:09:11.960 --> 00:09:16.399 fed mice, but still they see health benefit. So that's 151 00:09:16.399 --> 00:09:19.559 why we call it time restricted feeding. But since it 152 00:09:19.679 --> 00:09:25.480 involves living without food for several hours for some people, 153 00:09:25.519 --> 00:09:29.639 which is it can be very difficult. The initial experiments 154 00:09:29.759 --> 00:09:32.679 was done, they were done for eight hours of feeding 155 00:09:32.720 --> 00:09:36.120 and sixteen hours of fasting. That kind of became popular 156 00:09:36.759 --> 00:09:40.399 and so that's why people use the same term as 157 00:09:40.480 --> 00:09:44.799 intermittent fasting. And now if you say in timentent fasting 158 00:09:44.879 --> 00:09:48.720 and popular literature or popular media, then people usually refer 159 00:09:48.799 --> 00:09:53.360 to time restricted So now coming back to how do 160 00:09:53.440 --> 00:09:57.799 you define time restricted feeding. So the way we have 161 00:09:57.840 --> 00:10:02.120 been trying to define a experimentally and also in literature 162 00:10:02.240 --> 00:10:09.320 is trying to confine all your energy intake from solid 163 00:10:09.320 --> 00:10:14.399 and liquid food combined within a consistent window of eight 164 00:10:14.600 --> 00:10:17.919 to twelve hours. Because that's something that duebl Of course, 165 00:10:17.960 --> 00:10:22.200 people have done time distribute treating with four hours six hours, 166 00:10:22.200 --> 00:10:24.559 and some people even try to eat everything within two 167

00:10:24.600 --> 00:10:28.440 hours one mill a day. But the point is those 168 00:10:28.519 --> 00:10:32.600 are not feasible to maintain for a very long time 169 00:10:32.679 --> 00:10:33.639 for a lot of people. 170 00:10:35.039 --> 00:10:38.440 One question about the six hour versus eight hour versus 171 00:10:38.440 --> 00:10:43.600 twelve hour feeding window. Is it important that the feeding 172 00:10:43.639 --> 00:10:47.879 window begin and end at the same time more or less? 173 00:10:48.039 --> 00:10:48.240 Yeah? 174 00:10:48.759 --> 00:10:51.480 And if so, how much flexibility is there? So? For instance, 175 00:10:51.519 --> 00:10:55.320 I'm somebody that I am not terribly hungry in the morning. 176 00:10:55.399 --> 00:11:00.240 I like to drink water, usually some caffeine and electricals 177 00:11:01.039 --> 00:11:03.279 in the period before my first meal, and my first 178 00:11:03.320 --> 00:11:07.519 meal always lands sometime between eleven and eleven am and 179 00:11:07.559 --> 00:11:12.080 twelve noon. There are exceptions. Occasionally I'll have a breakfast, 180 00:11:12.120 --> 00:11:14.919 a proper breakfast, as it's called. I guess it would 181 00:11:14.919 --> 00:11:17.759 be improper if you're in a benefacting for me, But 182 00:11:17.840 --> 00:11:21.519 typically eleven am or noon is when I first eat, 183 00:11:21.519 --> 00:11:24.919 and my last bite of food is typically around thirty 184 00:11:25.000 --> 00:11:29.559 nine pm. That's what works for me, is that consistency 185 00:11:29.679 --> 00:11:32.960 affording me any benefit. And let's just leave aside total 186 00:11:33.000 --> 00:11:37.039 cloric number macronutrients, plant based meat, et cetera. But is 187 00:11:37.080 --> 00:11:40.840 there any benefit to shortening that feeding window that we 188 00:11:40.879 --> 00:11:45.519 are aware of, or extending that feeding window, or being 189 00:11:45.919 --> 00:11:48.320 even more rigid about the start and end of that 190 00:11:48.320 --> 00:11:49.039 feeding window. 191 00:11:50.039 --> 00:11:54.519 Yeah, so the start of the feeding window. That's interesting 192 00:11:54.600 --> 00:11:59.120 because the concept of time to st feeding when I 193 00:11:59.200 --> 00:12:03.480 describe animals studies, it's treeding. For humans, it's eating. So 194 00:12:03.519 --> 00:12:07.720 the concept actually came from the signs of Cicadian rhythm. 195 00:12:07.919 --> 00:12:13.919 So that means our body has an internal timetable that's 196 00:12:13.960 --> 00:12:19.240 present in every cell in every organ that pre programs 197 00:12:20.480 --> 00:12:25.440 many molecular aspects of the cells that leads to physiology 198 00:12:25.480 --> 00:12:29.000 and all that stuff. So that essentially there is a 199 00:12:29.200 --> 00:12:33.240 predetermined timetable for every cell, every organ to do certain 200 00:12:33.279 --> 00:12:39.440 things at a certain time. And the Cicadian clocks, as 201 00:12:40.159 --> 00:12:43.399 you and I know, are more sensitive to light. Light 202 00:12:43.519 --> 00:12:49.440 is the most dominant time giver, so for example, when 203 00:12:49.720 --> 00:12:52.879 daylight saving time changes, or when we travel from one 204 00:12:52.919 --> 00:12:55.519 time zone to another time zone, we feel kind of 205 00:12:55.559 --> 00:13:02.799 crappy because our daily activities out of from our internal clock. 206 00:13:04.320 --> 00:13:06.679 So that was known for a very long time, but 207 00:13:06.720 --> 00:13:09.159 then around the year two thousand and two thousand and two, 208 00:13:10.399 --> 00:13:16.240 there is a famous experiment by Uli Sibler from Switzerland. 209 00:13:16.279 --> 00:13:19.559 What he did, he just fed the mice at the 210 00:13:19.559 --> 00:13:23.080 wrong time. Mice had knocked on all their night feeders, 211 00:13:23.240 --> 00:13:27.279 and when he fed mice during daytime, the liver clock, 212 00:13:27.519 --> 00:13:31.799 instead of following its own routine, liver clock actually started 213 00:13:31.840 --> 00:13:36.919 following food. So that means by changing our feeding time 214 00:13:37.200 --> 00:13:42.919 we can change we can tune our liver clock. And subsequently, 215 00:13:42.919 --> 00:13:45.840 the same experiment has been repeated many times and have 216 00:13:45.879 --> 00:13:48.679 been We repeated that in two thousand and nine and 217 00:13:49.000 --> 00:13:54.320 we figured out yes, actually outside this brain center called 218 00:13:54.360 --> 00:14:00.639 super chismatic nucleus or SCN, which is consider the master 219 00:14:00.720 --> 00:14:07.399 circadian clock, almost rest of the brain even follows when 220 00:14:07.440 --> 00:14:10.840 we eat. And that came out from Pere Shambon's lab 221 00:14:11.039 --> 00:14:16.519 in Europe. Whether the systematically looked at even places that 222 00:14:16.559 --> 00:14:20.360 are very close to the ACM for those who are 223 00:14:20.600 --> 00:14:24.639 who know, or some medial hypothlamas, paraventricular nuclears, all of 224 00:14:24.639 --> 00:14:28.360 this within a couple of or four or five millimeters 225 00:14:28.360 --> 00:14:32.399 of the an but they were following food cube amazing. 226 00:14:32.440 --> 00:14:36.559 So then and now, if we think about it, so 227 00:14:37.039 --> 00:14:40.480 for example, when the daylight seven time changes just one 228 00:14:40.519 --> 00:14:45.360 hour change or one hour change in alignment between our 229 00:14:45.360 --> 00:14:49.279 internal time and external time leads to kind of feeling 230 00:14:49.440 --> 00:14:52.840 groggy and feeling not at a peak for four months, 231 00:14:52.840 --> 00:14:55.440 for one or two days. So the rule of thumb 232 00:14:55.559 --> 00:15:01.000 is when the time giver changes by one hour than 233 00:15:01.600 --> 00:15:04.639 our internal clock takes at least a day to catch up. 234 00:15:04.799 --> 00:15:09.639 So that means if you're flying from LA to New York, 235 00:15:10.360 -->

00:15:14.720 you're moving through three times Jones. Then on an hour age, 236 00:15:14.759 --> 00:15:17.759 it will take three days to catch up with the 237 00:15:17.799 --> 00:15:20.960 New York times. For some people it can be even slower, 238 00:15:21.000 --> 00:15:23.159 and for some people it can be two days. But 239 00:15:23.200 --> 00:15:26.559 the bottom line is, yes, there is a de synchrony. 240 00:15:26.679 --> 00:15:30.879 So then what does it mean for the body. So 241 00:15:31.039 --> 00:15:34.480 one of the functions of clock is to anticipate when 242 00:15:34.519 --> 00:15:37.240 you're going to wake up. For example, so the blood 243 00:15:37.279 --> 00:15:41.039 presser slightly goes up, our heart red goes up, breathing 244 00:15:41.080 --> 00:15:47.159 goes up. Similarly for food, almost every organ that is 245 00:15:47.200 --> 00:15:52.559 involved in feeding or eating digestion, all of them have clocks. 246 00:15:53.279 --> 00:15:57.480 So even from saliva production that is the first phase 247 00:15:57.480 --> 00:16:01.639 of our digestion, to creation of all the digestive juice 248 00:16:01.639 --> 00:16:04.320 and the stomach, and then I have jerson of nutrient 249 00:16:04.480 --> 00:16:09.919 then liver, metabolism, everything the whole village expects when you're 250 00:16:09.960 --> 00:16:12.919 supposed to eat, and they're getting ready for you to 251 00:16:13.000 --> 00:16:17.039 eat their first meal after fasting for a long time. 252 00:16:17.080 --> 00:16:21.080 So that's why it's breaking the fast or breakfast. And 253 00:16:21.840 --> 00:16:24.159 when that time changes, when you change it by two 254 00:16:24.200 --> 00:16:28.080 or three hours from one day to another, than sometimes 255 00:16:28.120 --> 00:16:32.399 are like, oh, food didn't come, maybe will come at 256 00:16:32.399 --> 00:16:34.799 a wrong time. We were at the wrong time, and 257 00:16:34.840 --> 00:16:38.960 then they'll track the new eating times. So suppose that 258 00:16:39.039 --> 00:16:42.759 one day you have been eating every day at eight am. 259 00:16:42.879 --> 00:16:44.279 I eat at eight en, So. 260 00:16:44.279 --> 00:16:47.159 Is that when you start? Yeah, your when do you? When? 261 00:16:47.200 --> 00:16:48.759 Does your feeding windows shut? 262 00:16:49.360 --> 00:16:52.600 Six pm? So I eat for around ten hours, okay, 263 00:16:54.159 --> 00:16:56.799 and then one day if I switch to ten am, 264 00:16:57.039 --> 00:17:00.519 then what happens is a clock is singing, Well, the 265 00:17:00.519 --> 00:17:03.080 food didn't arrive at eight, but it arrived at ten. 266 00:17:03.320 --> 00:17:06.200 Maybe tomorrow the food will arrive somewhere between eight and ten, 267 00:17:06.440 --> 00:17:11.799 so we'll be ready around nine. So then the next day, 268 00:17:11.799 --> 00:17:14.039 if I come back and eat at eight o'clock, then 269 00:17:14.480 --> 00:17:17.640 I may eat, but my clock is not ready to 270 00:17:17.720 --> 00:17:21.799 digest that food. So that's why this idea is you 271 00:17:21.839 --> 00:17:25.759 have to be consistent to take advantage of this anticipatory 272 00:17:25.759 --> 00:17:29.319 activity of our clock in different systems to get the 273 00:17:29.359 --> 00:17:30.440 best out of it. 274 00:17:30.480 --> 00:17:34.400 Is there evidence that those anticipatory systems, as they relate 275 00:17:34.440 --> 00:17:37.640 to digestion help us better assimilate our food. I would 276 00:17:37.640 --> 00:17:39.720 imagine so, I mean, if you have the gastric juices 277 00:17:39.759 --> 00:17:41.839 that are going to help digest the proteins fats and 278 00:17:41.880 --> 00:17:46.519 carbohydrates and already deployed at the time when you eat, 279 00:17:46.680 --> 00:17:49.240 I could imagine that food will be better utilized than 280 00:17:49.279 --> 00:17:52.640 if you don't. So, in other words, what is the 281 00:17:52.680 --> 00:17:57.160 advantage of having these anticipatory signals in terms of potential 282 00:17:57.200 --> 00:17:57.960 health benefits? 283 00:17:58.039 --> 00:18:02.599 The anticipatory signal is really important from even from waking up. 284 00:18:04.599 --> 00:18:09.240 The reason why many people feel not ready completely when 285 00:18:09.240 --> 00:18:12.480 they wake up to an alarm clock because the alarm 286 00:18:12.559 --> 00:18:15.720 clock wakes you up, but your body is not prepared. 287 00:18:15.880 --> 00:18:19.440 So that sleepiness after waking up to an alarm clock 288 00:18:19.519 --> 00:18:22.279 is due to our body is not prepared for that. 289 00:18:22.799 --> 00:18:27.400 And then the best example is when the when the 290 00:18:27.440 --> 00:18:31.079 daylight saving time changes, particularly when we have to wake 291 00:18:31.200 --> 00:18:35.880 up one hour early. What happens people who have underlying 292 00:18:35.920 --> 00:18:40.559 heart condition when they're waking up when the body is 293 00:18:40.559 --> 00:18:42.359 not ready or heart is not ready, and all of 294 00:18:42.400 --> 00:18:44.240 it on. Their heart has to start pumping a little 295 00:18:44.279 --> 00:18:49.759 bit harder. Then there is chance of heart attack. And 296 00:18:50.000 --> 00:18:53.839 in fact, people have looked at hospital records and that 297 00:18:53.920 --> 00:18:56.640 they find that on those days and there is a 298 00:18:56.759 --> 00:18:58.200 sharp rise in. 299 00:18:58.240 --> 00:19:00.480 Heart attacks in a car accident and. 300 00:19:00.359 --> 00:19:03.119 Car accidents too because your brain is not coordinated, so 301 00:19:03.359 --> 00:19:08.920 you cannot make those fine decisions. So that's a great 302 00:19:08.960 --> 00:19:13.119 example of anticipatory activity. But coming back to digestion, one 303 00:19:13.160 --> 00:19:17.640 thing is, and this is something that many people might 304 00:19:17.680 --> 00:19:21.240 have experienced, there are many rhythms in our digestive system, 305 00:19:21.599 --> 00:19:25.319

and one of the rhythms is, look, our intestine has 306 00:19:25.319 --> 00:19:29.359 this peristaltic function, so it kind of contracts and expands, 307 00:19:29.799 --> 00:19:34.400 and that moves. For food doesn't move due to gravity, 308 00:19:34.720 --> 00:19:38.240 so it goes back and forth. And that peristaltic action 309 00:19:38.359 --> 00:19:42.160 actually slows down at night, a few hours after our 310 00:19:42.279 --> 00:19:48.319 last meal. And so that's why when people eat late 311 00:19:48.359 --> 00:19:52.440 at night, for example, then that food doesn't get digested 312 00:19:52.440 --> 00:19:56.559 because there is not enough digestive juice. First thing. And second, 313 00:19:56.599 --> 00:19:58.640 even if it gets digested in the store market, it 314 00:19:58.680 --> 00:20:01.960 doesn't move properly. So then the next morning people get 315 00:20:02.039 --> 00:20:06.920 up and think. Of course, people consume some alcohol very 316 00:20:06.960 --> 00:20:09.319 often and then they think that this is hangover. But 317 00:20:09.480 --> 00:20:13.680 those who don't consume alcohol, then they have the food 318 00:20:13.720 --> 00:20:17.039 hangover because it doesn't digest. So that's one extreme example 319 00:20:17.079 --> 00:20:23.240 where food at the wrong time can so healthy, for 320 00:20:23.319 --> 00:20:25.279 it at the wrong time can be crapped or junk. 321 00:20:25.480 --> 00:20:28.720 Yeah. I've experienced that where if I've worked late or 322 00:20:28.720 --> 00:20:30.680 I couldn't eat dinner or something, and then I get home, 323 00:20:30.759 --> 00:20:33.400 I always debate whether or not to try and sleep. 324 00:20:33.960 --> 00:20:36.759 But if I'm too hungry, oftentimes it's challenging. And so 325 00:20:37.079 --> 00:20:41.200 for me, sometimes consuming something that at least seems easily digestible, 326 00:20:41.200 --> 00:20:45.839 like yogurt or something in a liquid form, is better 327 00:20:46.000 --> 00:20:48.279 for me than if I eat a meal. I've made 328 00:20:48.279 --> 00:20:50.720 the mistake of going to the refrigerator being super hungry 329 00:20:50.720 --> 00:20:52.680 and eating a bunch of food at ten or eleven 330 00:20:52.759 --> 00:20:56.279 PM and then falling asleep. And indeed the sleep, if 331 00:20:56.319 --> 00:20:58.680 I'm tired enough, can be quite deep. But the next 332 00:20:58.720 --> 00:21:03.279 morning I feel just completely physically and cognitively weighed down. 333 00:21:03.319 --> 00:21:05.480 So I think what you just described makes a lot 334 00:21:05.519 --> 00:21:08.839 of sense. So if someone were to select a feeding 335 00:21:08.880 --> 00:21:12.759 window regardless of whether or not it falls into classic 336 00:21:12.759 --> 00:21:16.319 intermitt and fasting time. Restricted feeding sounds like eating your 337 00:21:16.359 --> 00:21:18.640 first bite of food and eating your last bite of 338 00:21:18.640 --> 00:21:21.799 food at more or less the same time each day

339 00:21:22.000 --> 00:21:27.480 has benefits. I have this question you mentioned feeding versus eating, 340 00:21:27.599 --> 00:21:33.720 and I think it's actually not just a grammatical semantic issue. 341 00:21:33.880 --> 00:21:37.839 And here's why we tend to think about when you 342 00:21:37.839 --> 00:21:40.039 take your first bite of food and then when you 343 00:21:40.079 --> 00:21:42.440 take your last bite of food. But of course food's 344 00:21:42.480 --> 00:21:45.160 digest at different rates. More fad in there is going 345 00:21:45.200 --> 00:21:48.160 to digest, make carbohydrates digest slower, etc. I mean, there's 346 00:21:48.160 --> 00:21:50.839 all these adjustments to the glycemic index and so forth 347 00:21:50.960 --> 00:21:54.880 with foods in combination. Is it better to think about 348 00:21:54.920 --> 00:21:59.279 not eating but your fed state and blood sugar? So, 349 00:21:59.359 --> 00:22:04.240 for instance, I often get asked on social media does 350 00:22:04.480 --> 00:22:08.319 blank break a fast? And so I like to think 351 00:22:08.319 --> 00:22:11.519 about it scientifically, like, okay, is does plain water break 352 00:22:11.519 --> 00:22:11.920 a fast? 353 00:22:12.039 --> 00:22:12.160 No? 354 00:22:12.319 --> 00:22:13.519 Does air break a fast? 355 00:22:13.640 --> 00:22:14.000 No? 356 00:22:14.480 --> 00:22:18.480 Does one grain of sugar of sucrose break a fast? Well? 357 00:22:18.599 --> 00:22:21.960 Probably not? But does one teaspoon of sugar break a fast? 358 00:22:21.960 --> 00:22:25.400 Well you could say yes, but transiently like so, I mean, 359 00:22:25.440 --> 00:22:27.400 when we're talking about breaking a fast, are we talking 360 00:22:27.480 --> 00:22:31.119 about a rise in blood glucose or are there molecular 361 00:22:31.160 --> 00:22:36.920 signals downstream of a rise in blood glucose that cannot 362 00:22:36.920 --> 00:22:38.759 be reversed. In other words, if I'm gonna eat my 363 00:22:38.759 --> 00:22:40.519 first meal every day at noon, and I'm gonna eat 364 00:22:40.519 --> 00:22:45.119 my last bite of food at eight pm, and at 365 00:22:45.240 --> 00:22:47.839 nine am, for whatever reason, I have coffee with one 366 00:22:47.960 --> 00:22:52.240 teaspoon of sugar in it, I suppose in the strictest sense, 367 00:22:52.319 --> 00:22:55.519 I've broken my fast. But maybe by if I went 368 00:22:55.559 --> 00:22:58.000 for a hard run that morning, maybe by nine thirty am, 369 00:22:58.000 --> 00:23:00.279 I'm back in a quote unquote fasted state. So what 370 00:23:00.480 --> 00:23:03.079 is the fasted state really, Because when I'm eating at 371 00:23:03.119 --> 00:23:07.240 eight pm, just to give another example, i start fasting 372 00:23:07.279 --> 00:23:11.119 at eight oh one, perhaps, but I have my blood 373 00:23:11.119 --> 00:23:14.240 glucose as elevate, so I'm not really fasted. I'm fed. 374 00:23:14.759 --> 00:23:17.400 It's just that I'm not eating the verb right, Okay, 375 00:23:17.480 --> 00:23:21.680 So again, I don't want to get overly detailed just 376 00:23:21.720 --> 00:23:23.400 for sake of getting detailed. But I think a lot 377 00:23:23.440 --> 00:23:25.759 of the confusion out there about what breaks a fast 378 00:23:26.519 --> 00:23:29.759 is related specifically to this issue, which is, if I 379 00:23:29.799 --> 00:23:31.759 eat a whole pizza after sitting around all day, it's 380 00:23:31.799 --> 00:23:33.519 very different than if I eat a whole pizza after 381 00:23:33.599 --> 00:23:37.720 having run a twenty six mile marathon. That very different 382 00:23:38.880 --> 00:23:43.839 metabolically speaking. So how should people think about fasted versus fed? 383 00:23:44.680 --> 00:23:47.920 Can we be mildly fasted versus severe fasted? Can we 384 00:23:48.000 --> 00:23:54.240 be fed ish versus very fed? Anyway, I'll stop asking 385 00:23:54.319 --> 00:23:56.359 questions now, but because they all relate to the same theme. 386 00:23:56.799 --> 00:24:01.519 Yeah, now there's a very interesting question. And then, unfortunately, 387 00:24:01.559 --> 00:24:03.680 as you can, as you have you might have seen 388 00:24:03.880 --> 00:24:09.119 in life, the most obvious questions are often unanswered because 389 00:24:09.160 --> 00:24:12.480 it's so hard to do these damn experiments Because if 390 00:24:12.519 --> 00:24:15.160 you really want to address this in humans, you are 391 00:24:15.200 --> 00:24:19.799 to bring humans put them in isolation. Just like you said, 392 00:24:19.960 --> 00:24:23.640 I can now imagine planning five or six different experiments. 393 00:24:23.680 --> 00:24:28.119 Each experiment should involve eight or ten volunteers each gender, sex, 394 00:24:29.160 --> 00:24:31.160 and then do it. So it's difficult. So now let's 395 00:24:31.200 --> 00:24:35.759 go back to see how do we Let's dissect it 396 00:24:36.559 --> 00:24:40.440 in terms of saying indirect calorimetry. So, for example, indirect 397 00:24:40.480 --> 00:24:45.480 calorimetry is based on this principle that what our oxygen 398 00:24:45.519 --> 00:24:49.200 we breathe in and carbon dioxide we breathe out, if 399 00:24:49.200 --> 00:24:51.319 we can measure these two, then we can figure out 400 00:24:51.359 --> 00:24:54.880 whether our body in total. We are not saying whether 401 00:24:54.880 --> 00:24:59.200 it's the liver, got or fat or muscle in total, 402 00:24:59.240 --> 00:25:05.680 whether it's consuming glucose or fat as energy source. The 403 00:25:05.759 --> 00:25:10.480 idea is when we when we are without food for 404 00:25:10.519 --> 00:25:15.920 several hours, then ideally our body will tap onto glycogen 405 00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:18.839 first and then to a little bit of fat, and 406 00:25:18.880 --> 00:25:21.720 then when the body is mostly running on fat, than 407 00:25:21.759 --> 00:25:24.880 that ratio of ZO two to oxygen will come two 408 00:25:24.920 --> 00:25:30.400 point seven. But what is interesting,

we can do these 409 00:25:30.440 --> 00:25:32.839 experiments in mice. So we can go to mice and 410 00:25:32.839 --> 00:25:36.359 I ask, okay, so what happens in mice? So in 411 00:25:36.400 --> 00:25:38.920 mice are a little bit very different because mice are 412 00:25:39.000 --> 00:25:43.839 not simply little people. There, the metabolism is different. They 413 00:25:44.640 --> 00:25:49.640 store relatively less glycogen than humans do in terms of 414 00:25:50.000 --> 00:25:55.480 total metabolism. So they overnight within twelve to fourteen hours 415 00:25:55.799 --> 00:26:00.000 the area respiratory exchange ratio. This ratio will go from 416 00:26:00.119 --> 00:26:04.599 one when they're consuming mostly glucose or carbohydrate as energy source, 417 00:26:04.640 --> 00:26:07.720 it will slow down slowly go to point seven point 418 00:26:07.759 --> 00:26:11.359 seventy five. After twelve to fourteen hours, they are kind 419 00:26:11.400 --> 00:26:16.880 of mostly running on fat, so now as we give 420 00:26:16.920 --> 00:26:21.400 them food within ten or fifteen minutes, they're not actually 421 00:26:21.440 --> 00:26:24.960 consuming couple of grams of food. They might have consumed 422 00:26:25.039 --> 00:26:27.799 say one hundred or two hundred milligram of that child so, 423 00:26:27.880 --> 00:26:30.559 which is less than say, five percent of the food, 424 00:26:31.279 --> 00:26:34.839 and then the area will immediately begin to rise, as 425 00:26:34.920 --> 00:26:40.119 if that small amount of food stopped that fat burning 426 00:26:40.160 --> 00:26:44.839 process and cranked up the carbohydrate burning process. 427 00:26:45.000 --> 00:26:47.519 When you say fat burning process, you mean body fat 428 00:26:47.559 --> 00:26:50.640 store being burned, right, not dietary fat. Correct. 429 00:26:50.720 --> 00:26:53.720 Yeah, so it's all body fat, means That's why I said, 430 00:26:54.279 --> 00:26:56.440 we don't know where that fat is being burned, because 431 00:26:56.480 --> 00:26:59.279 we're just measuring how how much mice is bidding in 432 00:26:59.319 --> 00:27:02.880 and out. So for example, it can be from the skin, 433 00:27:03.359 --> 00:27:05.880 so subcitten you is fat or belly. 434 00:27:05.599 --> 00:27:07.839 Fat, but not dietary fat. 435 00:27:08.480 --> 00:27:10.839 No, by that time, the dietary fat is already observed 436 00:27:10.839 --> 00:27:13.759 and digested, and hopefully it's sitting in the liver or 437 00:27:13.880 --> 00:27:17.559 art the postissious somewhere. But it's the fattest body fat. Yes, 438 00:27:17.599 --> 00:27:18.279 thank you. Yeah. 439 00:27:18.319 --> 00:27:20.359 Yeah. The reason I ask is that nowadays I think 440 00:27:20.680 --> 00:27:22.920 more than half of the battles about nutrition that I 441 00:27:22.960 --> 00:27:26.200 see online relate to this issue where I won't name names, 442 00:27:26.200 --> 00:27:29.359 but someone will come along and say low carbohydrate diet 443 00:27:29.359 --> 00:27:34.319 allows you to burn more fat, and the more nuanced 444 00:27:34.880 --> 00:27:37.720 people out there will say, well, that's true, but you're 445 00:27:37.759 --> 00:27:40.119 also talking about dietary fat. You know, the word fat 446 00:27:40.119 --> 00:27:42.799 can confuse people. I realize you're not doing that. You 447 00:27:43.119 --> 00:27:44.759 are certainly not one of the people guilty of doing this. 448 00:27:44.839 --> 00:27:47.119 But indeed, you eat more fat, you'll burn more fat, 449 00:27:47.119 --> 00:27:49.480 but that doesn't mean you'll burn more body fat. In fact, 450 00:27:49.920 --> 00:27:53.319 I think the data say that under conditions of cloric restriction, 451 00:27:53.359 --> 00:27:55.799 you'll actually burn less. Hope I don't. I'll probably get 452 00:27:55.880 --> 00:27:59.640 I'll probably get pitchforks sent through the mail toward me 453 00:27:59.720 --> 00:28:02.359 and on that one. But I think that's true. Whereas 454 00:28:02.599 --> 00:28:05.000 you know, people who consume carbohydrate can still burn body 455 00:28:05.079 --> 00:28:07.480 fat even though the majority of the fuel they're burning 456 00:28:07.519 --> 00:28:08.440 is from carbohydrate. 457 00:28:08.519 --> 00:28:11.839 So here, in this case, for example, from mice, we 458 00:28:11.880 --> 00:28:15.279 know that as soon as they start eating, the area 459 00:28:15.359 --> 00:28:18.359 goes up. Coming back to your question, what would be 460 00:28:18.400 --> 00:28:20.960 ideal for us to do the experiment would be okay, 461 00:28:20.960 --> 00:28:22.839 So we'll go back to that and then give the 462 00:28:22.880 --> 00:28:26.839 mouse maybe one hundred milligram of food and mouse runs 463 00:28:26.839 --> 00:28:30.119 around in the case and then will continue to measure 464 00:28:30.160 --> 00:28:32.119 to see how long it takes for the mouse to 465 00:28:32.160 --> 00:28:35.839 come back. And then so that's one aspect. So now 466 00:28:35.920 --> 00:28:40.400 let's see, let's stay on this, and then I'll come 467 00:28:40.440 --> 00:28:43.880 back and talk about non caloric food and whether that 468 00:28:44.079 --> 00:28:49.079 is considered. So there is a famous experiment that was 469 00:28:49.119 --> 00:28:53.279 published last year by Jota Kahasi's lab, and it came 470 00:28:53.279 --> 00:28:58.279 out in Science, and that relates to caloric restriction, and 471 00:28:59.480 --> 00:29:02.440 we kind of started with this idea. We started discussing 472 00:29:02.480 --> 00:29:05.720 that the rat experiments were done with calorie restriction and 473 00:29:06.400 --> 00:29:10.759 researchers gave reduced calorie conjunction by twenty person or thirty 474 00:29:10.799 --> 00:29:14.720 percent and gave that food the rats and then subsequently 475 00:29:14.799 --> 00:29:19.759 mice and they all lived longer. What is interesting is 476 00:29:21.640 --> 00:29:25.759 and all those experiments, the researchers came and gave this 477

00:29:25.880 --> 00:29:29.519 bulluts of food at one time, whereas they had livitum 478 00:29:29.519 --> 00:29:32.359 fed mice or rats. They had access to food all 479 00:29:32.400 --> 00:29:34.680 the time, so they're eating all the time. And then 480 00:29:34.720 --> 00:29:40.079 these rats were given twenty personal less and what happens 481 00:29:40.200 --> 00:29:42.519 is these mice or rats, they're not going to take 482 00:29:42.559 --> 00:29:46.319 that less food, which is rest on now and just 483 00:29:46.400 --> 00:29:49.160 eat a little bit of lunch and then snack after 484 00:29:49.200 --> 00:29:51.480 three hours or snack after three hours. They gobble up 485 00:29:51.559 --> 00:29:55.279 all that food within two to three hours, maximum four hours, 486 00:29:55.680 --> 00:29:56.440 food is gone. 487 00:29:56.559 --> 00:29:58.759 So they're sort of on the OMAD diet, the one 488 00:29:58.799 --> 00:29:59.400 meal a day. 489 00:29:59.559 --> 00:30:03.079 Yeah, they're almost like in one miller days, three to 490 00:30:03.119 --> 00:30:06.240 four hours food is gone. Or you can say they're 491 00:30:06.279 --> 00:30:11.039 on four hours eating of feeding and twenty hours fasting. 492 00:30:12.720 --> 00:30:16.359 So then the question became, well, the benefit of caloric 493 00:30:16.400 --> 00:30:20.440 restriction as we know, is it due to reduced calorie 494 00:30:20.839 --> 00:30:25.000 or time restricted feeding or timing? There is a timing 495 00:30:25.000 --> 00:30:27.319 component to it that they're eating all of that within 496 00:30:28.000 --> 00:30:30.359 three to four hours and then there is a long fasting. 497 00:30:30.839 --> 00:30:34.400 And this is a difficult question to answer because now 498 00:30:35.240 --> 00:30:37.519 you have to ask the poor grad students or technicians 499 00:30:37.519 --> 00:30:41.119 to come and split that food into eight or ten 500 00:30:41.200 --> 00:30:44.640 or fifteen different small persons and then give them to 501 00:30:44.720 --> 00:30:49.400 mice in every two hours. So Jota Kahasi who actually 502 00:30:49.960 --> 00:30:53.839 published the first paper in twenty seventeen showing that most 503 00:30:53.880 --> 00:30:56.920 calorial restrictions study, I mean he used the protocol that 504 00:30:57.440 --> 00:31:02.039 was used by calori restriction field. It actually creates a 505 00:31:02.200 --> 00:31:05.880 condition of time restriction. So he showed that and then 506 00:31:05.960 --> 00:31:09.200 he went back and worked with engineers to come up 507 00:31:09.240 --> 00:31:13.839 with a smart cage where he could actually tell he 508 00:31:13.880 --> 00:31:17.240 could program how much food is given to mice at 509 00:31:17.240 --> 00:31:21.920 what time of the day or night, completely programmed. So 510 00:31:21.960 --> 00:31:25.079 then he took this for example, suppose say they add 511 00:31:25.119 --> 00:31:29.319 livitum fed mice. It's five grams of chow in a day, 512 00:31:30.440 --> 00:31:33.839 and if you want to reduce calories by twenty percent, 513 00:31:33.920 --> 00:31:37.440 then the cr mouse should get four grams of food 514 00:31:38.400 --> 00:31:43.000 and it divided this into nine or ten meals and 515 00:31:43.039 --> 00:31:47.240 then gave them in every ninety minutes. So in this 516 00:31:47.359 --> 00:31:52.039 case they're i think small meals throughout day and night, 517 00:31:52.119 --> 00:31:54.319 so there is no fasting. So you can say that, well, 518 00:31:54.359 --> 00:31:57.279 this mouse actually is not getting into fasting because in 519 00:31:57.319 --> 00:32:02.440 every few hours is getting some food. And then he 520 00:32:02.519 --> 00:32:06.160 measured how long the mouse is going to live and 521 00:32:06.240 --> 00:32:10.519 he used account means this is a very standard protocol. 522 00:32:10.640 --> 00:32:13.440 People count how many mice a dying on which day 523 00:32:13.519 --> 00:32:16.720 and then examine them to see whether they died because 524 00:32:16.759 --> 00:32:19.000 there was an accident or they actually there was a 525 00:32:19.079 --> 00:32:23.799 natural cause, and then they calculate at the end what 526 00:32:23.960 --> 00:32:30.400 is the half life. So fifty percent survival because that's 527 00:32:30.480 --> 00:32:33.000 on an hourage. That's a good indicator because if there 528 00:32:33.039 --> 00:32:34.880 is an outlier that will live for a long time, 529 00:32:34.960 --> 00:32:38.359 then that can skew. So what was interesting was they'd 530 00:32:38.400 --> 00:32:41.920 livet umfared mice. Of course they lived a certain number 531 00:32:41.920 --> 00:32:46.839 of days, and then this caloric restricted mice that never 532 00:32:46.880 --> 00:32:51.160 got into super fasting but kind of eating snacking throughout 533 00:32:51.240 --> 00:32:54.440 day and night. It also lived ten person extra ten 534 00:32:54.480 --> 00:32:59.039 person longer, so that means caloric restriction extended lifespan by 535 00:32:59.079 --> 00:32:59.599 ten person. 536 00:33:00.039 --> 00:33:04.319 I wonder about this because recently, you know, there's been 537 00:33:04.440 --> 00:33:07.119 there were a bunch of news headlines about intermittent fasting, 538 00:33:07.160 --> 00:33:11.160 and frankly, I was frustrated. If you looked at one 539 00:33:11.559 --> 00:33:15.640 major news outlet, they would say time restricted feeding affords 540 00:33:15.759 --> 00:33:20.920 no additional benefit beyond coloric restriction for weight loss. Then 541 00:33:21.279 --> 00:33:26.640 another popular press venue, let's call it that same study 542 00:33:26.920 --> 00:33:32.559 described as time restricted feeding doesn't work, right, And then 543 00:33:32.640 --> 00:33:36.559 another one, maybe someplace even more extreme, you know, time 544 00:33:36.640 --> 00:33:42.519 restricted feeding only beneficial because of coloric restriction or something 545 00:33:42.559 --> 00:33:46.079 like that. So

you've essentially got our three different interpretations 546 00:33:46.119 --> 00:33:49.160 of the same data, all of which are well, two 547 00:33:49.200 --> 00:33:50.920 of which are true, one of which is false in 548 00:33:50.920 --> 00:33:53.839 my opinion. But what I think people take away from 549 00:33:53.839 --> 00:33:57.400 that is, oh, time restricted feeding isn't valuable, which is 550 00:33:57.440 --> 00:33:59.319 not the case. I think for many people, it's a 551 00:33:59.400 --> 00:34:01.960 convenient way to eat because at least for people like me, 552 00:34:02.480 --> 00:34:06.160 it's simpler to designate between portions of my day when 553 00:34:06.160 --> 00:34:08.280 I'm eating, in portions of my day when I'm not eating, 554 00:34:08.280 --> 00:34:10.880 as opposed to eat portion control. For other people, portion 555 00:34:10.960 --> 00:34:14.119 control can work, but all of that is related to 556 00:34:14.760 --> 00:34:19.079 either maintenance or loss of weight. None of it deals 557 00:34:19.159 --> 00:34:24.480 with the potential health benefits independent of weight loss, and 558 00:34:24.559 --> 00:34:28.719 so I think that if we can segment those out. Obviously, 559 00:34:28.719 --> 00:34:33.000 in humans, it's hard to know if a given treatment 560 00:34:33.079 --> 00:34:35.000 or experiment is extending life because you don't really know 561 00:34:35.000 --> 00:34:37.840 how long people would live anyway, right, Whereas with mice 562 00:34:37.880 --> 00:34:40.480 you have some sense of when the mortality was likely 563 00:34:40.519 --> 00:34:44.360 to occur. So what can we say about time restricted 564 00:34:44.400 --> 00:34:48.320 feeding and longevity in terms of biomarkers or in terms 565 00:34:48.360 --> 00:34:51.800 of any other indication that people who start and stop 566 00:34:51.840 --> 00:34:54.639 their feeding when at a consistent time somewhere between eight 567 00:34:54.679 --> 00:34:58.960 and twelve hours per twenty four hour cycle are tilting 568 00:34:59.000 --> 00:35:02.559 the scales towards the living longer as opposed to living shorter. 569 00:35:03.000 --> 00:35:05.920 This example of this news article that you mentioned is 570 00:35:05.960 --> 00:35:10.119 really interesting because that relates to Joe's joatakas his study 571 00:35:10.239 --> 00:35:13.239 because I described that if you split calories and eat 572 00:35:13.239 --> 00:35:16.119 throughout the day, throughout day and night, then the mice 573 00:35:16.239 --> 00:35:19.920 lived ten percent extra. But if you now give mouse 574 00:35:20.119 --> 00:35:24.320 the same calorie restricted diet and fit them during daytime, 575 00:35:25.559 --> 00:35:28.920 whether within twelve hours or two hours, then the mice 576 00:35:29.000 --> 00:35:31.400 lived ten percent extra beyond that. 577 00:35:31.639 --> 00:35:35.320 Yeah, So so okay, so let me make sure I understand. 578 00:35:35.519 --> 00:35:39.599 So that so that I make sure I understand

if 579 00:35:39.719 --> 00:35:41.719 you take a certain number of calories and you distribute 580 00:35:41.760 --> 00:35:45.719 them throughout the twenty four hour cycle, it's cloric restriction. 581 00:35:46.039 --> 00:35:49.440 The mice will live ten percent longer. If you, however, 582 00:35:49.559 --> 00:35:53.519 restrict that to the active cycle of so for humans 583 00:35:53.519 --> 00:35:58.599 the daytime, then twenty percent. Then they live twenty percent 584 00:35:58.639 --> 00:36:02.519 long twenty percent. So it's not just total chloric intake. Yeah, 585 00:36:03.000 --> 00:36:05.320 Meaning it's not just important to be sub maintenance and 586 00:36:05.400 --> 00:36:09.199 calories for sake of longevity. It also is important as 587 00:36:09.239 --> 00:36:11.760 to when in the twenty four hour cycle you eat 588 00:36:11.760 --> 00:36:13.079 those calories. Do I have that right? 589 00:36:13.440 --> 00:36:17.039 So now that's still this story is not over because 590 00:36:17.599 --> 00:36:20.320 this mice work fed during daytime when they're not supposed 591 00:36:20.360 --> 00:36:20.679 to eat. 592 00:36:20.800 --> 00:36:22.400 That's right, So for us, it would be the equivalent 593 00:36:22.400 --> 00:36:24.320 of being on the night shift and only eating at night, 594 00:36:24.360 --> 00:36:28.119 but a subchloric, sub maintenance calorie diet. I guess that's 595 00:36:28.119 --> 00:36:28.920 the right way to say it. 596 00:36:29.320 --> 00:36:32.679 But twenty fared mice during nighttime when they're supposed to eat, 597 00:36:33.239 --> 00:36:36.440 and they're seeing getting the same number of calories within 598 00:36:36.480 --> 00:36:40.159 twelve hours or two hours, then the mice lift thirty 599 00:36:40.199 --> 00:36:43.199 five percent longer than the control. 600 00:36:43.320 --> 00:36:45.880 Thirty five percent longer. So scale to human life span, 601 00:36:46.000 --> 00:36:48.800 which you know, we don't know, but a thirty five 602 00:36:48.800 --> 00:36:51.960 percent longer would mean that, and again no one knows 603 00:36:52.000 --> 00:36:55.760 but humans. Now, what is the average mortality in the 604 00:36:55.840 --> 00:36:56.280 United States? 605 00:36:56.280 --> 00:36:59.440 Somewhere around Yeah, so it's surrounded. It used to be 606 00:36:59.400 --> 00:37:02.679 eating our slowly reduced a little bit because of COVID. 607 00:37:02.719 --> 00:37:04.079 But let's take eighty. 608 00:37:03.960 --> 00:37:07.039 Okay, so people are then now living somewhere between twenty 609 00:37:07.039 --> 00:37:09.679 five and thirty five years longer. I'm putting some error bars. 610 00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:14.599 Yeah, yeah, yeah, so that was really profound. But now 611 00:37:14.719 --> 00:37:20.480 you pointed out biomarker and other stuff. So now if 612 00:37:20.519 --> 00:37:23.320 you look at any given time within that experiment, and 613 00:37:23.440 --> 00:37:27.559 actually Joe went back and had a separate cohort of 614

00:37:27.679 --> 00:37:30.639 mice very similar and so that he could take tissue 615 00:37:30.679 --> 00:37:33.039 samples and of course in this case you have to 616 00:37:33.079 --> 00:37:37.159 sacrifice the mouse. And he looked for he did a 617 00:37:37.239 --> 00:37:43.400 lot of molecular analysis with non markers for example, hemoglobina 618 00:37:43.440 --> 00:37:46.360 one C eqivalant or glucus control cholesterol, all this stuff. 619 00:37:47.840 --> 00:37:52.559 He could not find anything that predicted the benefit of 620 00:37:52.599 --> 00:37:56.679 calorie restriction. So that means in this experiment, whatever we 621 00:37:56.880 --> 00:38:01.199 know so far the predictor of longevity, none of them 622 00:38:01.719 --> 00:38:07.079 could predict whether these see our only mouse which at 623 00:38:07.280 --> 00:38:10.599 throughout day and night, that mouse is going to live 624 00:38:10.719 --> 00:38:13.800 less than the night fed mouse that was going to 625 00:38:13.880 --> 00:38:15.800 live twenty five percent extra. 626 00:38:16.119 --> 00:38:18.880 Does that mean that there are biomarkers relates to longevity 627 00:38:18.920 --> 00:38:20.320 that we just haven't discovered yet. 628 00:38:20.360 --> 00:38:23.559 Yeah, So that's exactly. So that means what about we 629 00:38:23.679 --> 00:38:29.239 know so far about biomarkers those he could not use 630 00:38:29.320 --> 00:38:32.239 to predict. Maybe there was a lot of noise, Maybe 631 00:38:32.320 --> 00:38:34.880 he wanted he had to use more number of mice 632 00:38:34.920 --> 00:38:38.280 to get that, because you know, biomarkers are not going 633 00:38:38.280 --> 00:38:41.119 to predict in every instance, so there is some error. 634 00:38:42.360 --> 00:38:45.119 What is also very interesting is if you look at 635 00:38:45.119 --> 00:38:47.920 the body wet and body composition of all these mice, 636 00:38:48.159 --> 00:38:50.480 there's no difference in body wet and body. 637 00:38:50.199 --> 00:38:54.400 Composition across all these different all these groups. So it 638 00:38:54.440 --> 00:38:58.400 doesn't matter when they ate, provided they were submit sub 639 00:38:58.719 --> 00:39:02.639 cal maintenance calorie and so less fewer calories than is 640 00:39:02.679 --> 00:39:05.159 required to maintain their weight. It didn't matter what pattern 641 00:39:05.199 --> 00:39:07.480 of eating they were the same way. Yeah, so that 642 00:39:07.519 --> 00:39:09.679 in many ways seems to mimic the human studies where 643 00:39:09.679 --> 00:39:11.360 they say, look, it doesn't really matter whether or not 644 00:39:11.360 --> 00:39:14.760 you use cloric restriction, or or you start your feeding 645 00:39:14.800 --> 00:39:16.519 window in the morning, or start your feeding window in 646 00:39:16.559 --> 00:39:20.599 the evening, or you or you portion control for sake 647 00:39:20.639 --> 00:39:22.840 of weight weight loss, because they're. 648 00:39:22.719 --> 00:39:24.840 Taking a snatch sort of that. And then another thing 649 00:39:24.880 --> 00:39:27.639 with the human study that we are referring to here 650 00:39:29.800 --> 00:39:34.000 that in that human study, people are actually already eating 651 00:39:34.039 --> 00:39:39.519 within ten hours window habitually when they selected these people 652 00:39:39.639 --> 00:39:43.320 to have them enroll in the study, so they were 653 00:39:43.360 --> 00:39:46.880 already eating for ten hours and fasting for fourteen hours. 654 00:39:47.679 --> 00:39:50.639 All participants had to reduce that caloric intake and they're 655 00:39:50.639 --> 00:39:55.920 reduced by almost twenty five percent. The CR group continued 656 00:39:55.920 --> 00:39:59.239 with ten hours hitting window, and the CR plus time 657 00:39:59.280 --> 00:40:02.199 restricted group had to eat the same number of calories 658 00:40:02.199 --> 00:40:02.960 within eight hours. 659 00:40:03.119 --> 00:40:04.599 So it's just a two hour difference. 660 00:40:04.639 --> 00:40:06.519 It's just a two hours difference, Okay, So. 661 00:40:06.440 --> 00:40:08.360 That people I just want to make sure people can understand. 662 00:40:08.360 --> 00:40:10.639 So in this human study, which is the one that 663 00:40:10.679 --> 00:40:14.639 I felt that the popular press venues all except one venue, 664 00:40:15.360 --> 00:40:18.119 got either semi wrong or badly wrong in terms of 665 00:40:18.159 --> 00:40:22.360 their conclusion. That was my interpretation anyway, was that either 666 00:40:22.840 --> 00:40:25.360 people came into the study eating basically in a ten 667 00:40:25.400 --> 00:40:27.440 hour feeding window, which goes back to my first question, 668 00:40:27.440 --> 00:40:28.760 which is that most people are not eating in the 669 00:40:28.800 --> 00:40:30.880 middle of the night where if they're on shift work, 670 00:40:30.880 --> 00:40:33.079 and they are, then they're sleeping during the day anyway, 671 00:40:33.079 --> 00:40:34.719 so they're eating in a ten to twelve hour feeding 672 00:40:34.760 --> 00:40:37.760 window anyway. So you're saying they either did caloric restriction 673 00:40:37.840 --> 00:40:41.039 portion control within a ten hour window, or another group 674 00:40:41.199 --> 00:40:46.480 within the study eight sub maintenance calories, so coloric restriction 675 00:40:46.599 --> 00:40:50.239 CR as we're calling it the acronym CR, but restrict 676 00:40:50.280 --> 00:40:51.800 to that to an eight hour feeding window, and they 677 00:40:51.840 --> 00:40:54.320 didn't see any difference in terms of weight loss. Yeah, 678 00:40:54.800 --> 00:40:56.599 but it's not all that surprising, right, I mean, if 679 00:40:56.599 --> 00:40:58.320 it's just a two hour difference. 680 00:40:58.079 --> 00:41:01.000 Yeah, exactly. So we have done that experiment in mice 681 00:41:01.039 --> 00:41:04.519 and we don't see difference in not only weight loss, 682 00:41:04.519 --> 00:41:07.679 many other markers. And I

was telling you about this 683 00:41:08.360 --> 00:41:12.079 Jota Kaas's paper where I told you that he allowed 684 00:41:12.079 --> 00:41:15.239 the mice to eat within two hours or twelve hours 685 00:41:15.719 --> 00:41:18.920 subcloric diet two or twelve. 686 00:41:19.039 --> 00:41:20.960 Two or twelve, Yeah, that's traumatic. 687 00:41:21.280 --> 00:41:24.400 But still he did not see change in longevity even 688 00:41:24.920 --> 00:41:28.840 within those two So that means when you do caloric 689 00:41:28.880 --> 00:41:33.000 restriction and then at least for mouse, and you are 690 00:41:33.039 --> 00:41:37.719 within twelve hours window, that's that is giving the mice 691 00:41:37.840 --> 00:41:42.840 the best benefit, the optimum benefit, and two three or 692 00:41:42.840 --> 00:41:46.880 five or twelve per mouse doesn't matter at least for longevity. 693 00:41:47.039 --> 00:41:49.679 Can we conclude for humans that whether or not a 694 00:41:49.719 --> 00:41:53.480 feeding window is four hours, six hours, eight hours, or 695 00:41:53.519 --> 00:41:58.159 twelve doesn't matter provided the calories are are similar or same. 696 00:41:58.559 --> 00:42:00.880 Well, I won't go to that extra ten because we 697 00:42:00.920 --> 00:42:04.559 don't know many of these particularly we don't know how 698 00:42:04.599 --> 00:42:09.239 this sort of eating window will affect both sexes because 699 00:42:09.440 --> 00:42:12.320 you know, we always think many of the mouse experiments, 700 00:42:12.320 --> 00:42:14.679 even that I told you about those are done only 701 00:42:14.719 --> 00:42:15.320 in mal mice. 702 00:42:15.440 --> 00:42:17.960 But that should be changing, right because the NIH I 703 00:42:18.000 --> 00:42:19.960 know this because I'm on study section, which is just 704 00:42:20.119 --> 00:42:23.239 a bunch of people who who review grants, is that 705 00:42:23.440 --> 00:42:26.719 every grant now has to include sex as biological variable. 706 00:42:27.119 --> 00:42:30.320 It's hard to get away with. Well, rather, I should 707 00:42:30.360 --> 00:42:31.920 say it the way it should be stayed, which is 708 00:42:32.519 --> 00:42:37.000 people are required and should want to look at these 709 00:42:37.000 --> 00:42:40.800 phenomenon in male and female mice. Yes, especially if there 710 00:42:40.800 --> 00:42:41.679 are differences. 711 00:42:41.880 --> 00:42:45.559 So in this case there are many emins. There was 712 00:42:45.599 --> 00:42:49.159 also another people in time listory refitting that also came 713 00:42:49.199 --> 00:42:54.639 out a big paper showing that the thermogenesis was accounting 714 00:42:54.719 --> 00:42:57.840 for loss and fat mass and time listory referred mice. 715 00:42:57.880 --> 00:43:01.480 That was also done only in male mice. So this 716 00:43:01.559 --> 00:43:04.320 is we are paying attention to it. So we are 717 00:43:04.360 --> 00:43:07.360 now doing all of our studies in male and female 718 00:43:07.400 --> 00:43:09.840 and we do see big differences between male and female. 719 00:43:10.039 --> 00:43:14.280 Coming back to humans, what typically happens is when you're 720 00:43:14.320 --> 00:43:16.800 trying to do four hours or six hours of time 721 00:43:16.840 --> 00:43:21.480 restored to eating, people will inadvertently reduce their caloric intake just. 722 00:43:21.440 --> 00:43:23.800 Because of gut volume. I tried one nail per day, 723 00:43:24.320 --> 00:43:27.039 and I felt like I was eating so much at 724 00:43:27.079 --> 00:43:29.320 that one sitting that it led to a lot of 725 00:43:29.320 --> 00:43:31.800 gastric distress and then at tired after the meal. And 726 00:43:31.840 --> 00:43:34.079 part of the reason I like to do time restricted 727 00:43:34.119 --> 00:43:37.159 feeding is I have more energy, and certainly in the 728 00:43:37.199 --> 00:43:40.800 fasted state, I feel more energized, especially if I'm ingesting 729 00:43:40.840 --> 00:43:42.280 a little caffeine or something like that. 730 00:43:43.760 --> 00:43:48.920 So people will reduce energy intake. And then some people 731 00:43:48.920 --> 00:43:53.400 who are more active, they can actually unconsciously they may 732 00:43:53.440 --> 00:43:57.199 be spending more energy in the physical activity and basel 733 00:43:57.239 --> 00:43:59.599 metabolic read all of this combined than how M was 734 00:43:59.599 --> 00:44:03.119 there eating, and that can have a very advers efect 735 00:44:03.199 --> 00:44:06.599 and long term. Because we know that this energy deficit 736 00:44:06.960 --> 00:44:10.559 and impact, there is a scientific term for that. It's 737 00:44:10.599 --> 00:44:15.159 called REDS. Relative energy deficit in sports. 738 00:44:15.559 --> 00:44:17.360 Relative energy deficit in sports. 739 00:44:17.400 --> 00:44:23.000 Okay, yeah, because nearly forty of athletes, not the NFL guys, 740 00:44:23.039 --> 00:44:25.960 but you know a lot of people who do track 741 00:44:26.039 --> 00:44:31.400 and field, and nearly forty percent of ATHLETs actually experience 742 00:44:31.480 --> 00:44:34.360 this red REDS without knowing. 743 00:44:34.360 --> 00:44:37.199 Can male and female athletes both experience REDS, So it's 744 00:44:37.280 --> 00:44:41.679 REDS r E D S ADD relative energy relative energy 745 00:44:41.679 --> 00:44:45.800 deficit in sports. Interesting, is the first I've heard this acronym. 746 00:44:45.840 --> 00:44:48.880 We have a new acronym, folks. This is good to 747 00:44:48.920 --> 00:44:51.800 add to it a list of other acronyms. But so 748 00:44:51.960 --> 00:44:54.880 males and females can experience it. So in females, I've 749 00:44:54.880 --> 00:45:01.000 heard that REDS can lead to emin a rear so 750 00:45:01.199 --> 00:45:03.559 loss of men of the menstrual cycle. 751 00:45:03.719 --> 00:45:08.000 Yeah, so that's so common, that so prevalent that in fact, 752 00:45:08.039 --> 00:45:11.960 many women, many female ATHLETs, they take it for granted

753 00:45:12.000 --> 00:45:14.000 that yes, if they are more active, then they will 754 00:45:14.039 --> 00:45:17.079 lose their menstrual cycle, which is which may be common, 755 00:45:17.239 --> 00:45:20.840 but it's not normal or optimum for health. 756 00:45:21.800 --> 00:45:25.360 And even if they don't want to get pregnant. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah. 757 00:45:25.440 --> 00:45:27.480 We had an expert on female hormones come on it 758 00:45:27.519 --> 00:45:30.239 and say the very same thing that regular cycling is 759 00:45:30.280 --> 00:45:34.519 a very of ovulatory menstrual cycle is important to try 760 00:45:34.559 --> 00:45:36.440 and maintain. 761 00:45:36.639 --> 00:45:39.440 Yeah, and so that's one. But then what is really 762 00:45:39.480 --> 00:45:46.880 concerning is it does affect bone health. And in this state, 763 00:45:47.039 --> 00:45:50.440 people actually over a long period of time, the loose 764 00:45:50.559 --> 00:45:54.239 bone mass and the bone also becomes more prone to injury. 765 00:45:54.719 --> 00:46:00.440 Microfracture and fractures. So again it's a risk. Means, if 766 00:46:00.519 --> 00:46:02.679 some people are trying to eat within very short time 767 00:46:02.719 --> 00:46:05.920 and they're physically active, that happens and it also has 768 00:46:06.039 --> 00:46:10.960 impact on means. The revision why these women are losing 769 00:46:11.000 --> 00:46:17.760 men's Roul cycle is the hPG axis is disrupted hypothalamous 770 00:46:18.239 --> 00:46:24.239 petitary gonadal axis and it starts in May, starting offstream 771 00:46:24.360 --> 00:46:28.039 at hypothalamas are petuitary, so that means that HPA axis 772 00:46:28.119 --> 00:46:32.840 hypothalamos pituitary and adrenal axis may also get disrupted. One 773 00:46:32.840 --> 00:46:36.280 of the symptoms of THREATS is also depressed on anxiety 774 00:46:36.719 --> 00:46:41.440 bipolar like symptoms. And we know that many many athletes 775 00:46:41.920 --> 00:46:44.440 experience that. We think that well this this may be 776 00:46:44.559 --> 00:46:47.440 just peer pressure that always trying to compete, and we 777 00:46:47.559 --> 00:46:49.960 know there are unfortunately there are a few athletes who 778 00:46:50.079 --> 00:46:53.480 just can't cope it and many attempted suicide or suicide. 779 00:46:54.119 --> 00:46:58.920 So this is a serious issue and there's also another 780 00:46:59.039 --> 00:47:01.280 new topic in the life to come up with a 781 00:47:01.440 --> 00:47:05.119 mouse model of rats and then study it. But this 782 00:47:05.280 --> 00:47:08.440 is one risk why we should not reduce our eating 783 00:47:08.480 --> 00:47:12.480 interval to two to one meal or very short time 784 00:47:13.480 --> 00:47:16.639 because it can have adverse arty fact that we don't 785 00:47:16.719 --> 00:47:20.599 know now maybe in future will figure out when we 786 00:47:20.760 --> 00:47:24.800 systematically study them. There are studies that are published showing 787

00:47:24.920 --> 00:47:27.800 four hours and six hours time restrict ed eiting has 788 00:47:27.880 --> 00:47:32.000 benefits on weight loss, but those are on healthy individuals 789 00:47:32.039 --> 00:47:35.679 and they are in the studies so they, you know, 790 00:47:35.719 --> 00:47:39.880 the study team to get we're already monitoring. They make 791 00:47:39.960 --> 00:47:43.239 sure that there is no certain wetlass or weight loss 792 00:47:43.280 --> 00:47:47.960 below some safety level. So those are very different from 793 00:47:48.400 --> 00:47:51.719 regular people who are who maybe even normal weight or 794 00:47:52.079 --> 00:47:56.519 even within the healthy range. If they do, then they 795 00:47:56.559 --> 00:47:59.800 can potentially So that's why what we think is eight 796 00:47:59.840 --> 00:48:03.039 to ten hours maybe the ideal spot to begin with. 797 00:48:03.880 --> 00:48:09.000 And once you're physically active and you are also spending 798 00:48:09.000 --> 00:48:12.360 a lot of energy in physical activity or sports, you 799 00:48:12.400 --> 00:48:14.960 can even go up to twelve hours. Because in mice 800 00:48:15.000 --> 00:48:18.239 we have done that experiment up to twelve hours, they 801 00:48:18.280 --> 00:48:20.800 do get a lot of benefits, not all, but so 802 00:48:20.840 --> 00:48:23.400 this is twelve hours of twelve hours of hitting, twelve 803 00:48:23.440 --> 00:48:28.920 hours of pasting ye. In humans, again, nobody has done 804 00:48:28.960 --> 00:48:33.440 systematically twelve hours, but there was one study in Europe 805 00:48:34.239 --> 00:48:37.280 from tin High collect Lab and tin High and I 806 00:48:37.440 --> 00:48:40.599 we collaborate so they used our miccdian clock app. This 807 00:48:40.719 --> 00:48:43.920 is a research app we developed just to This is 808 00:48:43.960 --> 00:48:48.800 mostly used in time restricted eating studies. And he had 809 00:48:49.079 --> 00:48:52.920 nearly I think he started with two hundred Swiss participants, 810 00:48:52.960 --> 00:48:55.280 but then at the end he selected and took very 811 00:48:55.320 --> 00:48:59.599 small number of groups, people who are very meticulous about 812 00:48:59.599 --> 00:49:03.519 recording all their food. It divided them into useual feeding, 813 00:49:03.559 --> 00:49:05.960 whatever they wanted to eat, whenever they wanted to eat, 814 00:49:06.679 --> 00:49:10.880 and they were given the advice of Swiss nutrition advice 815 00:49:11.199 --> 00:49:15.679 that's given to improve health and reduced blot bookers, almost 816 00:49:15.719 --> 00:49:19.320 like diabetes prehention program in the US. And then the 817 00:49:19.360 --> 00:49:22.679 other group was given advice to eat within twelve hours. 818 00:49:24.320 --> 00:49:26.519 This was very early on in time rustory eating and 819 00:49:26.559 --> 00:49:29.800 we thought that the mice for getting some benefit. Let's 820 00:49:29.880 --> 00:49:33.840 try whether twelve hours has any benefit. The bottom line 821 00:49:33.880 --> 00:49:37.039 is at the end of three months and six months, 822 00:49:37.079 --> 00:49:40.920 what he reported is both groups lost the same amount 823 00:49:40.960 --> 00:49:45.320 of body wet and then there was not too much 824 00:49:45.320 --> 00:49:49.239 significant difference between groups, but both groups actually improved their health. 825 00:49:49.719 --> 00:49:54.039 So the bottom line is the Swiss nutritional advice that 826 00:49:54.119 --> 00:49:57.119 he was giving, which is the standard of care there, 827 00:49:57.800 --> 00:50:00.320 it achieved the same amount of weight loss as just 828 00:50:00.480 --> 00:50:04.760 giving people this advice that eat within twelve hours. So 829 00:50:05.199 --> 00:50:07.079 one way to look at it look at the result 830 00:50:07.079 --> 00:50:12.000 of these like this, and then he went to more 831 00:50:12.039 --> 00:50:16.519 extent and actually looked at every single meal these people consume, 832 00:50:16.679 --> 00:50:20.360 so they're close to I think close to sixty or 833 00:50:20.400 --> 00:50:23.960 seventy thousand meal records and pictures. He went through and 834 00:50:24.000 --> 00:50:28.639 then classified them to say whether these are good quality food. 835 00:50:28.719 --> 00:50:31.679 So they call it the NOVA classification one, two, three, 836 00:50:31.719 --> 00:50:34.960 for one is the food that you can almost eat 837 00:50:35.079 --> 00:50:40.800 raw fruits, vegetables, yogurt, dairy products that you can almost 838 00:50:40.880 --> 00:50:44.599 without any preparation. And then second NOVA two is kind 839 00:50:44.599 --> 00:50:48.039 of home cooked food that most people will prepare in 840 00:50:48.039 --> 00:50:50.800 a few minutes. And then three and then fourth one 841 00:50:50.920 --> 00:50:54.159 is the food that you can never prepare at home, 842 00:50:54.960 --> 00:50:59.960 so for example, biscuit or cookies that we usually purchase, 843 00:51:00.119 --> 00:51:03.119 and few other things. And usually the NOVA four are 844 00:51:03.159 --> 00:51:06.079 on healthy, ultraprocessed food so which we should not be eating. 845 00:51:06.159 --> 00:51:10.039 So the advice is to reduce NOVA four. And what 846 00:51:10.079 --> 00:51:14.320 I found was people who got all this advice to 847 00:51:15.079 --> 00:51:18.320 improve the nutrition quality, they actually improve that nutrition quality. 848 00:51:18.320 --> 00:51:22.599 They reduce the NOVA for food. And people who are 849 00:51:22.599 --> 00:51:25.079 in time restor eating. They ate, we did twelve hours, 850 00:51:25.320 --> 00:51:28.760 they did not change the nutrition quality. But what is 851 00:51:28.760 --> 00:51:32.599 interesting is they both got the same modest wet loss. 852 00:51:32.800 --> 00:51:35.320 So that begs the question that in the maybe in 853 00:51:35.400 --> 00:51:40.320 high will do this experiment again to combine nutrition advice 854 00:51:40.639 -->

00:51:43.199 with time restriction and maybe reduce the time to ten 855 00:51:43.280 --> 00:51:49.239 hours and that might help. So twelve hours is something 856 00:51:49.280 --> 00:51:52.280 that I say anyone from five year old to one 857 00:51:52.320 --> 00:51:57.079 hundred year old can do, and if you're trying to 858 00:51:57.119 --> 00:51:59.840 maintain wet that might be a good way, and combine 859 00:51:59.840 --> 00:52:01.639 that with exercise it will be great. 860 00:52:01.840 --> 00:52:05.880 And people can more easily avoid reds in that way 861 00:52:05.920 --> 00:52:09.440 women and for non athletes or recreational exercises, sounds like women, 862 00:52:10.039 --> 00:52:12.599 if they distribute their calories across twelve hours, are less 863 00:52:12.679 --> 00:52:14.840 likely to lose their menstrual cycle. 864 00:52:15.119 --> 00:52:17.320 Yeah, so again this is something that we have to 865 00:52:17.440 --> 00:52:20.559 look carefully. They have to be because we do have 866 00:52:20.599 --> 00:52:23.280 the my Sycreity and clockap that many people download and 867 00:52:23.519 --> 00:52:26.039 self monitor and they share the data for researchers, and we. 868 00:52:26.000 --> 00:52:27.760 Won't provide a link to that. By the way, it's 869 00:52:27.760 --> 00:52:28.840 a great it's a great tool. 870 00:52:28.960 --> 00:52:30.920 Yeah, but once in a while we do get this 871 00:52:31.159 --> 00:52:34.000 input from some women saying, oh, I started doing your 872 00:52:34.000 --> 00:52:36.840 time laser eating and I am seeing all these problems, 873 00:52:36.840 --> 00:52:38.719 and then I ask them, okay, so what else are 874 00:52:38.760 --> 00:52:42.360 you doing? They typically improve that nutrition quality, so the 875 00:52:42.400 --> 00:52:45.920 eating only salad and few and they're trying to increase 876 00:52:45.960 --> 00:52:48.960 the fiber intake, and it's really hard to eat so 877 00:52:49.079 --> 00:52:54.559 much of uncooked food because cooking helps to observe more nutrient. 878 00:52:54.679 --> 00:52:56.639 And then at the same time they're running five miles 879 00:52:56.679 --> 00:52:59.719 every day, and of course all of these combinedly can 880 00:53:00.199 --> 00:53:04.760 to Red's like symptoms. So that's why twelve I think 881 00:53:05.239 --> 00:53:10.480 is a good point if a combining physical exercise and 882 00:53:10.679 --> 00:53:13.880 better nutrition quality. Because in mice also we have seen 883 00:53:14.000 --> 00:53:16.880 that if mice are eating healthy food and they're eating 884 00:53:16.920 --> 00:53:20.639 within ten to twelve hours, then they also live longer 885 00:53:20.679 --> 00:53:23.559 than mice that are eating healthy food but distributing that 886 00:53:23.679 --> 00:53:26.320 calorie over a long period of time. And this is 887 00:53:27.239 --> 00:53:33.239 rough Hardcabo's finding from NIH. He has systematically done this 888 00:53:33.320 --> 00:53:36.039 study with two different types of diet and in mice, 889 00:53:36.880 --> 00:53:39.519 and he finds the same thing that even mice that 890 00:53:39.559 --> 00:53:42.599 are eating within twelve hours, they do live longer than 891 00:53:42.679 --> 00:53:45.880 mice that eat randomly. Even healthy food. 892 00:53:46.920 --> 00:53:49.199 I recall a recent study. I think it was either 893 00:53:49.239 --> 00:53:51.960 published in Cell Reports or Cell Reports Medicine forgive me 894 00:53:52.000 --> 00:53:54.000 for not memory, which we both of course, cell press 895 00:53:54.280 --> 00:53:59.079 journals excellent journals which explored time restricted feeding in the 896 00:53:59.119 --> 00:54:02.920 context of low carbohydrate or non low carbohydrate diet, so 897 00:54:02.920 --> 00:54:06.719 it was low carbohydrate versus low carbohydrate and time restricted 898 00:54:07.360 --> 00:54:10.920 so these all caloric matched right between groups, and then 899 00:54:11.239 --> 00:54:14.119 non low carbohydrate diet, so it's sort of more standard. 900 00:54:14.519 --> 00:54:16.079 I think it was somewhere in the neighborhood of sixty 901 00:54:16.079 --> 00:54:19.199 percent of calories from complex carbohydrates. And as I recall, 902 00:54:19.480 --> 00:54:24.719 the greatest weight loss remember same calories across groups folks, 903 00:54:25.800 --> 00:54:31.559 was achieved with low carbohydrate plus caloric restriction, and I 904 00:54:31.599 --> 00:54:35.360 wondered why all the popular news venues didn't cover that study. 905 00:54:35.760 --> 00:54:37.239 But that's why I'm bringing it up now. I thought 906 00:54:37.239 --> 00:54:41.280 this is really interesting, and I'm somebody who's cycled low 907 00:54:41.280 --> 00:54:45.639 carbohydrate diet before. I find it hard to sleep after 908 00:54:45.679 --> 00:54:47.519 about three or four days of being on a low 909 00:54:47.559 --> 00:54:51.280 starch diet just personally, so I like to eat some starches, 910 00:54:51.639 --> 00:54:55.039 especially if exercising intensely or working intensely. That's just a 911 00:54:55.039 --> 00:54:58.880 little editorial there that, But look, I know many people 912 00:54:58.880 --> 00:55:01.280 who do just feel better on a low carbohydrate diet. 913 00:55:01.320 --> 00:55:03.320 But what do you think of those data? Because it 914 00:55:03.360 --> 00:55:05.679 speaks to the idea that, Okay, it's not just the 915 00:55:05.719 --> 00:55:08.320 total number of calories, it's not just the quality of 916 00:55:08.320 --> 00:55:13.000 those calories. It's the timing of those calories, and maybe 917 00:55:13.280 --> 00:55:17.920 carbohydrate restriction in conjunction with time restricted feeding might be 918 00:55:18.079 --> 00:55:20.679 the best path for people who are looking to lose weight. 919 00:55:21.920 --> 00:55:26.440 No, I totally agree that when it comes to nutrition, quality, quantity, 920 00:55:26.480 --> 00:55:30.039 and timing, all these three matter. Nearly forty percent of

921 00:55:30.039 --> 00:55:33.719 people who maintain healthy body wet because sixty percent are 922 00:55:33.719 --> 00:55:36.559 overwet and obees forty percent of maintaining healthy body wet. 923 00:55:37.159 --> 00:55:38.960 And out of those forty percent, I would say nearly 924 00:55:39.840 --> 00:55:44.199 majority of them are very aware about how much diiting 925 00:55:44.400 --> 00:55:45.920 and what quality of food diting. 926 00:55:46.159 --> 00:55:48.199 So you're really an optimist. You're looking at the forty 927 00:55:48.239 --> 00:55:52.440 percent of the glass that's or should we say not full? Yeah, 928 00:55:52.480 --> 00:55:55.119 that was a pun intended, but the no, that's a 929 00:55:55.199 --> 00:55:57.159 very interesting way of looking at rather than saying, you know, 930 00:55:57.239 --> 00:56:01.480 why are sixty percent of Americans obese? Saying why are 931 00:56:01.519 --> 00:56:04.320 forty percent not obese. That's a very interesting way to 932 00:56:04.360 --> 00:56:04.800 look at it. 933 00:56:04.960 --> 00:56:09.119 Yeah, I'm in subconsciously, we're always making their decision, and 934 00:56:09.239 --> 00:56:11.440 so I know men's I'm sure that you are not 935 00:56:11.480 --> 00:56:16.000 going on eating cheeseburger every day because you want to improve. 936 00:56:16.639 --> 00:56:19.519 No, yeah, exactly, I wouldn't feel good. Yeah I enjoyed 937 00:56:19.559 --> 00:56:22.800 cheeseburger now and again, but I know not, certainly, not 938 00:56:22.880 --> 00:56:24.800 this stage or any stage of my life. I think 939 00:56:24.800 --> 00:56:29.679 that I think people, actually you think the pandemic had 940 00:56:29.679 --> 00:56:31.159 a lot to do with this. I think that people 941 00:56:31.840 --> 00:56:35.000 started to take a look at what they were doing 942 00:56:35.039 --> 00:56:38.800 to support or not support their health generally. I know 943 00:56:38.800 --> 00:56:40.760 people gained a lot of weight during the pandemic. Other 944 00:56:40.760 --> 00:56:43.000 people got really into fitness. I've seen some colleagues, so 945 00:56:43.039 --> 00:56:46.960 you've always maintained you've always been in good shape. Actually, 946 00:56:46.960 --> 00:56:48.360 this first time i've seen you in a while. You've 947 00:56:48.360 --> 00:56:51.440 seem to have aged backwards. So you are a poster 948 00:56:52.159 --> 00:56:56.079 for your own ideas and hypotheses about timer streage of feeding. 949 00:56:56.079 --> 00:56:59.360 But but I noticed that during the pandemic, a number 950 00:56:59.400 --> 00:57:02.159 of people emerge from the pandemic in better shape, other 951 00:57:02.159 --> 00:57:03.800 people in much worse shape. It seemed like it was 952 00:57:04.440 --> 00:57:09.239 like a bimodal distribution there. So yeah, I get the 953 00:57:09.280 --> 00:57:13.320 sense that starting and stopping eating at more or less 954 00:57:13.320 --> 00:57:17.480 the same time each day, even if caloric restriction is

955 00:57:17.519 --> 00:57:23.360 not the main focus, has additional benefits. Can we talk 956 00:57:23.360 --> 00:57:25.440 about some of those benefits as they relate to the 957 00:57:25.559 --> 00:57:28.280 other things that impact health? So, for instance, if you're 958 00:57:28.280 --> 00:57:30.519 starting and stopping eating at more or less the same 959 00:57:30.559 --> 00:57:34.239 times each day, are you sleeping better? Are you getting 960 00:57:34.239 --> 00:57:39.639 more predictable shifts in alertness and sleepiness? Like can you 961 00:57:39.719 --> 00:57:42.679 predict when you'll feel good enough to exercise? Maybe we 962 00:57:42.679 --> 00:57:45.360 could talk about that because you, of course are well 963 00:57:45.400 --> 00:57:47.719 known for time restricted feeding and the science around that, 964 00:57:47.760 --> 00:57:50.159 but also other things as well, not the least of 965 00:57:50.199 --> 00:57:52.840 which is circadian biology generally. So I always think of 966 00:57:52.920 --> 00:57:59.119 the main timekeepers for our system being feeding, light, activity, 967 00:57:59.639 --> 00:58:03.199 and social connection. Did miss maybe? And temperature? 968 00:58:03.360 --> 00:58:03.599 Yeah? 969 00:58:03.840 --> 00:58:06.559 Yeah, So how do these combine with one another? And 970 00:58:06.760 --> 00:58:09.599 using timing that we begin and stop feeding is kind 971 00:58:09.599 --> 00:58:11.760 of an anchor point. We explore that a little bit. Yeah. 972 00:58:11.960 --> 00:58:15.800 So, you know, we got into this beginning and end 973 00:58:15.880 --> 00:58:18.920 and then we you asked for the calorie. How much 974 00:58:18.960 --> 00:58:23.519 calorie will break? The first one thing that I want 975 00:58:24.360 --> 00:58:28.639 the listeners and viewers to bring back to this timing 976 00:58:28.679 --> 00:58:31.159 of when we when you are breaking the first because 977 00:58:31.800 --> 00:58:38.000 we equate health with wet body wet and that's when 978 00:58:38.639 --> 00:58:42.360 we are talking about nutrition quality and quantity, because both 979 00:58:42.400 --> 00:58:45.800 of them have impact. So now let's think about mental 980 00:58:45.840 --> 00:58:49.599 health because a lot of people do struggle with mental 981 00:58:49.679 --> 00:58:55.880 health they have anxiety or depression. And also so got 982 00:58:55.920 --> 00:58:58.320 health because there are a lot of people who also 983 00:58:58.400 --> 00:59:02.119 have esterdrip flocks or how bone, and we know that 984 00:59:02.280 --> 00:59:07.480 asterriflux or hard bone can be exacerbated by caffeine intake 985 00:59:07.559 --> 00:59:13.079 in empty stomach. Those who have ester herdbone, they are 986 00:59:13.159 --> 00:59:17.000 prone to that. Then having black coffee in the morning 987 00:59:17.840 --> 00:59:22.360 before any food can observe their stomach. So that's why 988 00:59:22.360 --> 00:59:25.960 in those cases it's very clearly that caffeine for them 989 00:59:26.280 --> 00:59:30.599 becomes the trigger. That's something the food is supposed to 990 00:59:30.599 --> 00:59:32.760 come and then the stomach is not seeing the food, 991 00:59:32.880 --> 00:59:36.599 so it's overreacting producing excess acid and that comes up 992 00:59:36.639 --> 00:59:40.960 to the estophagus and that's what they experience. So if 993 00:59:40.960 --> 00:59:43.599 people have that kind of condition, then maybe they should 994 00:59:43.679 --> 00:59:47.960 consider when they drink their first coffee, is breaking their 995 00:59:49.360 --> 00:59:52.599 overall fast or kind of putting them putting their health 996 00:59:52.679 --> 00:59:56.480 at risk or act reflux. The other thing is people 997 00:59:56.519 --> 01:00:02.360 who have anxiety panic attack, Oh, that caffeine can judge you. 998 01:00:02.320 --> 01:00:04.599 Are, especially on an empty stomach. 999 01:00:04.320 --> 01:00:08.599 Especially on an empty stomach. So for them, again, caffeine 1000 01:00:08.679 --> 01:00:12.239 can be a trigger. So that's why I want to 1001 01:00:12.360 --> 01:00:14.920 kind of differentiate that there is this mental health and 1002 01:00:15.039 --> 01:00:18.119 other aspects of health. And these are two clear examples 1003 01:00:18.119 --> 01:00:23.920 where anxiety panic attack related to brain health or estertrips 1004 01:00:24.400 --> 01:00:30.039 related to our gut health. In those cases when we 1005 01:00:30.119 --> 01:00:34.960 consume that caffeine in the morning can affect So do. 1006 01:00:34.920 --> 01:00:36.639 You avoid caffeine in the morning. 1007 01:00:37.320 --> 01:00:41.440 Actually, here is the interesting history about caffeine and this 1008 01:00:41.480 --> 01:00:44.920 is something I did not know and I was once 1009 01:00:44.960 --> 01:00:50.599 invited to this history of nighttime activity. And maybe we 1010 01:00:50.639 --> 01:00:52.800 can take a little bit of detour and talk about 1011 01:00:53.559 --> 01:00:57.320 nighttime activity because that fascinates me as a Cycadian biologists 1012 01:00:58.320 --> 01:01:02.360 because of our last two hundred years means we assume 1013 01:01:02.440 --> 01:01:06.440 that humans Homo sapiens evolved two hundred thousand years ago, 1014 01:01:06.519 --> 01:01:08.320 so we have been as a species. We have been 1015 01:01:08.360 --> 01:01:11.559 living on this planet for two hundred thousand years, and 1016 01:01:11.920 --> 01:01:15.599 only in the last you can say a couple of 1017 01:01:15.639 --> 01:01:19.920 thousand or five thousand years when we came to control fire, 1018 01:01:20.079 --> 01:01:21.679 or maybe you can even go back to one hundred 1019 01:01:21.719 --> 01:01:26.400 thousand years, there is some debut. So then the question is, well, 1020 01:01:27.880 --> 01:01:31.559 when we control fire, and we lighted up the fire, 1021 01:01:31.840 --> 01:01:35.639 and we could light uponever we wanted, we can add fuel, 1022 01:01:36.159 --> 01:01:38.840

and we can stop the fire when we don't want it. 1023 01:01:40.920 --> 01:01:47.199 That's the key ability in humans that differentiates them from 1024 01:01:47.360 --> 01:01:51.480 all the other species. No other species we can always 1025 01:01:51.480 --> 01:01:56.400 say yes, there are signs of this intelligent decision making. 1026 01:01:56.559 --> 01:02:00.840 For example, we know many crows can make decisions. Many 1027 01:02:00.880 --> 01:02:04.800 animals they kind of figure out strategize how to get food. 1028 01:02:04.920 --> 01:02:09.840 But controlled use of fire is something very specific to 1029 01:02:09.960 --> 01:02:15.519 human and when we started controlling fire, fire did not 1030 01:02:16.519 --> 01:02:21.519 essentially extend the day because fire created an evening that 1031 01:02:21.679 --> 01:02:24.800 was very different from what people did during the day, 1032 01:02:25.880 --> 01:02:28.840 and what people used to do during day, they walked 1033 01:02:28.880 --> 01:02:33.760 a lot. Means gathering food was almost everything that we did. 1034 01:02:34.679 --> 01:02:37.880 And so in the evening, after the after the after, 1035 01:02:37.920 --> 01:02:42.480 we brought food, mostly tubers or maybe lentails to cook 1036 01:02:42.639 --> 01:02:45.400 or once in a while animals so that we can 1037 01:02:45.599 --> 01:02:50.239 we could barbecue all of these things happened around fire, 1038 01:02:51.039 --> 01:02:55.199 and fire was so expensive that it was mostly communal fire. 1039 01:02:55.280 --> 01:02:58.440 So if you go back to for example, Massi and 1040 01:02:58.760 --> 01:03:03.719 all these a sorry populations that have no access to 1041 01:03:04.079 --> 01:03:08.079 electricity and are still living kind of that historical life, 1042 01:03:09.320 --> 01:03:12.119 fire is a communal event. And they sat around, they 1043 01:03:12.159 --> 01:03:15.639 cooked food, and then what happened. They did not talk 1044 01:03:15.639 --> 01:03:21.039 about work. They talked about culture. That they sang, they danced, 1045 01:03:21.519 --> 01:03:27.400 they strategize. That's how politics started, philosophy started, science started, 1046 01:03:27.519 --> 01:03:31.119 all of these things that are very unique to human 1047 01:03:31.119 --> 01:03:36.440 civilized and started around fireside chat. So and that way, 1048 01:03:36.440 --> 01:03:38.760 if we think about it, we are still doing fireside chat. 1049 01:03:38.800 --> 01:03:40.760 The only thing is we have the microwave and the 1050 01:03:40.960 --> 01:03:46.719 television or social media, so it's still so we are 1051 01:03:46.800 --> 01:03:50.960 hooked to that evening activity because that's when we are 1052 01:03:51.000 --> 01:03:54.880 completely free from the pressure of the work and we 1053 01:03:55.039 --> 01:03:58.280 want to express ourselves. That's our independent kind. So that's 1054 01:03:58.320 --> 01:04:02.039 why most people find it very difficult to do time 1055 01:04:02.079 --> 01:04:05.000 rash eating and stop eating at six o'clock because it's 1056 01:04:05.039 --> 01:04:09.199 in grain, in our in our even DNA that we 1057 01:04:09.400 --> 01:04:14.039 want to eat and socialize in the evening. So now 1058 01:04:14.559 --> 01:04:17.639 let's fast forward and see what is the role of 1059 01:04:17.679 --> 01:04:22.159 coffee in this and if you look at coffee on Jobson, 1060 01:04:22.239 --> 01:04:26.599 particularly cafe where people can come and have a little 1061 01:04:26.599 --> 01:04:29.719 bit of coffee and socialize. It also started as an 1062 01:04:29.760 --> 01:04:36.440 evening activity. And this is in now we can go 1063 01:04:36.480 --> 01:04:39.760 back to Istanbul because that's one place where coffee cafes 1064 01:04:40.239 --> 01:04:44.039 started in mid sixteenth century. So we are talking about 1065 01:04:44.039 --> 01:04:50.599 fifteen forty to fifteen seventy. And that's when I'm sorry, 1066 01:04:50.639 --> 01:04:54.599 I'm forgetting the name of historians who actually invited me. 1067 01:04:54.679 --> 01:05:00.960 And okay, his name is chaml Keefer, and I must 1068 01:05:01.039 --> 01:05:03.159 be butchering the them. But I will try to. 1069 01:05:03.159 --> 01:05:06.039 Provide the spelling. And the wonderful thing about social media 1070 01:05:06.079 --> 01:05:08.679 is somebody will tell us on YouTube the proper pronunciation. 1071 01:05:08.840 --> 01:05:11.639 So is a great opportunity. If you know the proper pronunciation, 1072 01:05:12.320 --> 01:05:14.039 please put it in the comments on YouTube. 1073 01:05:14.719 --> 01:05:17.960 Actually I'm even checking right now in my end, not library, 1074 01:05:18.000 --> 01:05:23.000 it's not picking up, that's right. So what happened was 1075 01:05:23.880 --> 01:05:28.119 so coffee was introduced and people came and drank coffee 1076 01:05:28.199 --> 01:05:32.360 and talked about politics at night at night, at evening. 1077 01:05:32.719 --> 01:05:36.760 And it actually started with Sufi branch of Islam, because 1078 01:05:36.880 --> 01:05:40.480 they are the ones who conjumed coffee in the evening, 1079 01:05:41.079 --> 01:05:43.800 and this is the branch of Islam where they actually 1080 01:05:44.039 --> 01:05:46.920 sing and dance, and all that happened in the evening, 1081 01:05:47.559 --> 01:05:53.239 so singing dancing by the sufis, and then here in 1082 01:05:53.400 --> 01:06:00.320 Istanbul people started congregating and having talk about politics. But 1083 01:06:00.360 --> 01:06:06.239 then around the same time some you know, in Turkey, 1084 01:06:06.320 --> 01:06:10.599 there was a good sizable number of Muslims who have 1085 01:06:10.719 --> 01:06:13.159 to do five prayers a day, number of prayers at 1086 01:06:13.199 --> 01:06:15.880 set time. The first prayer is very early in the morning. 1087 01:06:16.760 --> 01:06:19.039 And then they figured out that if they wake up 1088 01:06:19.079 --> 01:06:22.079 and immediately

have coffee, then they can stay awake for 1089 01:06:22.159 --> 01:06:25.480 the first prayer, and in that way they felt pretty 1090 01:06:25.519 --> 01:06:29.119 good they walk up. So that's how it started, as 1091 01:06:29.159 --> 01:06:33.480 a morning drink to stay awake and kind of get 1092 01:06:33.519 --> 01:06:36.719 on with the day. But what happened was I don't 1093 01:06:36.760 --> 01:06:39.760 know whether you have ever tried Turkish coffee. It's very thick. 1094 01:06:41.039 --> 01:06:44.239 Yeah. A few years ago, right before the pandemic twenty nineteen, 1095 01:06:44.280 --> 01:06:47.519 I traveled to Turkey as saw the food is amazing, 1096 01:06:47.679 --> 01:06:52.960 the coffee is indeed very very thick, and I have 1097 01:06:52.960 --> 01:06:57.159 a pretty high caffeine tolerance from drinking so much coffee 1098 01:06:57.199 --> 01:06:59.519 in your Ramonte over the years and still do. I 1099 01:06:59.519 --> 01:07:03.360 really enjoy it. But yeah, it's it's very intense. And 1100 01:07:03.760 --> 01:07:08.000 so what you're saying is that coffee intakes started as 1101 01:07:08.039 --> 01:07:10.760 a way to extend into the night. The ability to 1102 01:07:10.800 --> 01:07:12.599 extend into the night at all was because of the 1103 01:07:12.639 --> 01:07:17.519 ability to harness fire, and then coffee's stimulatory properties were 1104 01:07:18.559 --> 01:07:22.639 leveraged toward morning, which is essentially like the way I 1105 01:07:22.679 --> 01:07:24.920 think about it. We did an episode on caffeine and 1106 01:07:24.920 --> 01:07:28.679 some someone else, Michael Pollin not I described it this 1107 01:07:28.679 --> 01:07:30.840 way that you're sort of taking a loan out on 1108 01:07:30.880 --> 01:07:33.280 your energy bank account with coffee. You're suppressing the a 1109 01:07:33.320 --> 01:07:35.800 dentistyine system, a dnisity makes you sleepy, but that a 1110 01:07:35.840 --> 01:07:38.199 dynasty system will kick in later. So you're you're it's 1111 01:07:38.199 --> 01:07:40.920 a credit card of sorts with an interest, right right, 1112 01:07:41.159 --> 01:07:44.840 and the interest being an energetic lag that you're going 1113 01:07:44.880 --> 01:07:47.480 to experience in the afternoon. Yeah. 1114 01:07:47.519 --> 01:07:51.280 But what happened was with the strong coffee that gave 1115 01:07:51.519 --> 01:07:53.960 hard bone and acid repplux to a lot of people. 1116 01:07:54.920 --> 01:07:59.880 So then they started eating something with coffee, and that 1117 01:08:00.119 --> 01:08:02.559 saw the culture of breakfast started in Turkey. 1118 01:08:03.000 --> 01:08:06.880 So coffee actually led to the development of breakfast, not 1119 01:08:07.000 --> 01:08:10.280 the other way around, and that yeah, so that's very heartening. 1120 01:08:10.760 --> 01:08:16.840 No again, no pun intended for the caffeine lovers among us, 1121 01:08:17.319 --> 01:08:19.279 which I count myself one of those. 1122 01:08:19.600 -->

01:08:23.439 So essentially, the food before coffee became breakfast, so you 1123 01:08:23.600 --> 01:08:27.039 kind of give something to you to your stomach, so 1124 01:08:27.119 --> 01:08:30.560 it's busy digesting that, and then when the coffee comes in, 1125 01:08:30.760 --> 01:08:34.319 it's not reacting to coffee and creating ester. 1126 01:08:34.960 --> 01:08:38.840 So it wasn't this fascinating. So it wasn't that breakfast 1127 01:08:38.960 --> 01:08:43.039 is necessary on its own. It was essentially a buffer 1128 01:08:43.119 --> 01:08:46.479 against the gastric distress caused by caffeine, and at. 1129 01:08:46.399 --> 01:08:49.760 Least in that culture. In that context, we cannot say 1130 01:08:49.760 --> 01:08:51.800 that whether the same thing happened and all over the 1131 01:08:51.840 --> 01:08:54.560 world where coffee is not consumed, but still people eat 1132 01:08:54.640 --> 01:08:55.520 something in the morning. 1133 01:08:56.680 --> 01:09:00.800 You said you start your first meal the day around eight. 1134 01:09:00.800 --> 01:09:01.680 What time do you wake up? 1135 01:09:02.159 --> 01:09:03.000 Wake up around six? 1136 01:09:03.319 --> 01:09:05.840 If I started, What time do you have your first caffeine? 1137 01:09:06.239 --> 01:09:08.359 No, actually I have. So that's why I brought up 1138 01:09:08.399 --> 01:09:11.439 this story, because I have coffee after my breakfast. 1139 01:09:11.439 --> 01:09:14.319 Fantastic. I'm a big proponent of delaying caffeine intake for 1140 01:09:14.359 --> 01:09:17.039 a few hours after waking for other reasons that my 1141 01:09:17.359 --> 01:09:19.760 listeners have heard me talk about endlessly, So I won't 1142 01:09:19.800 --> 01:09:25.159 bother with that now, but I think allowing just suffice 1143 01:09:25.199 --> 01:09:27.319 to say that allowing some of the natural waking up 1144 01:09:27.359 --> 01:09:31.359 signals to occur and using light to kind of clear 1145 01:09:31.399 --> 01:09:35.239 away and denta scene to further extent and activity is 1146 01:09:35.479 --> 01:09:38.520 better than using a stimulant. But until a few hours later. 1147 01:09:38.600 --> 01:09:41.239 This is fascinating because I've never thought about the link 1148 01:09:41.279 --> 01:09:47.479 between extension into the night socialization or socializing rather feeding 1149 01:09:47.520 --> 01:09:48.319 and caffeine. 1150 01:09:48.439 --> 01:09:53.000 Now, actually I'm kind of speaking what many other researchers 1151 01:09:53.000 --> 01:09:57.560 have found, and this particularly this fireside chat, I'm forgetting 1152 01:09:57.640 --> 01:10:00.520 again the name of the scientist I think is from 1153 01:10:00.720 --> 01:10:05.720 University of Washington, Seattle. She went to Africa and kind 1154 01:10:05.720 --> 01:10:08.600 of recorded what people are talking. Of course, you could 1155 01:10:08.600 --> 01:10:10.239 not understand what they were talking. 1156 01:10:10.279 --> 01:10:13.079 Twitter and whether or not Tesla's stock is going on, 1157 01:10:13.279 --> 01:10:16.039 of course, just just kidding folks. 1158 01:10:17.000 --> 01:10:18.920 And then came back and tried to translate and then 1159 01:10:18.920 --> 01:10:21.600 figured out that what they were talking during daytime and 1160 01:10:21.640 --> 01:10:24.479 in the evening were very different. So so. 1161 01:10:26.640 --> 01:10:27.920 What are they talking about at night? 1162 01:10:28.479 --> 01:10:32.479 Exactly? So this is like they're talking about matchmaking and 1163 01:10:32.640 --> 01:10:40.560 talking about politics and strategizing to gather food or even 1164 01:10:40.720 --> 01:10:44.800 singing and dancing. So this is if you think, if 1165 01:10:44.840 --> 01:10:50.199 we think about it, how we manage sunset to our bedtime, 1166 01:10:51.079 --> 01:10:56.000 what do we do between sunset and bedtime affects most 1167 01:10:56.000 --> 01:10:56.600 of our health. 1168 01:10:58.680 --> 01:11:00.079 I'm going to think about that for a moment. I 1169 01:11:00.119 --> 01:11:04.800 totally agree. And by the way, I'm a huge believer 1170 01:11:05.079 --> 01:11:08.359 and i'man living in great hope for the idea that 1171 01:11:09.800 --> 01:11:13.000 right now, I do think that scientists understand a lot 1172 01:11:13.039 --> 01:11:15.159 more about the different stages of sleep, slow wave sleep 1173 01:11:15.239 --> 01:11:18.119 or am sleep, et cetera. Then we do active waking states, 1174 01:11:18.359 --> 01:11:20.640 like we talk about being focused or being alert, but 1175 01:11:21.000 --> 01:11:23.840 that's not those aren't scientific terms as we know. But 1176 01:11:23.960 --> 01:11:28.039 I do believe and I've noticed a distinct difference between 1177 01:11:28.119 --> 01:11:31.840 the first eight hours of the day in terms of cognition. 1178 01:11:31.960 --> 01:11:34.279 And we know that the catecholamines are a much higher levels. 1179 01:11:34.279 --> 01:11:36.399 Plus court is also dopamine cords all have an effort. 1180 01:11:36.399 --> 01:11:39.039 All of that is really at much higher levels than 1181 01:11:39.079 --> 01:11:42.359 in the later evening and so this evening time it 1182 01:11:43.159 --> 01:11:45.159 certainly in the context of mental health, we know that 1183 01:11:45.239 --> 01:11:49.920 morning and evening we are basically different creatures. Yeah. Completely. 1184 01:11:50.520 --> 01:11:53.039 Yeah, so that's why I think in the evening if 1185 01:11:53.039 --> 01:11:57.520 you think about it again. This is again another set 1186 01:11:57.560 --> 01:12:03.760 of research from my good friend Horacio, who yeah. 1187 01:12:03.720 --> 01:12:06.840 Oh yeah, yeah, I'm a big fan of another. He's 1188 01:12:06.840 --> 01:12:10.399 a fellow Argentine, so occasionally we riff about things related 1189 01:12:10.399 --> 01:12:12.279 to that. But he's a wonderful biologist. 1190 01:12:12.479 --> 01:12:15.960 Are you guys collaborating, Yeah, he's kind of I

say, 1191 01:12:16.000 --> 01:12:18.960 he's very humble and keeps a low profile, but he 1192 01:12:19.000 --> 01:12:24.680 does amazing, amazing research. He does research that we want 1193 01:12:24.720 --> 01:12:27.119 to know, but nobody is ready to do it because 1194 01:12:27.319 --> 01:12:31.760 field research is very difficult. To go to the wilderness 1195 01:12:32.039 --> 01:12:34.680 or go to the places where there is no electricity 1196 01:12:35.079 --> 01:12:40.279 and then record when these people are eating, sleeping, or 1197 01:12:40.319 --> 01:12:44.159 in this case activity exposure to light. That's what Horacio 1198 01:12:44.199 --> 01:12:48.239 has done, and he puts this active watch, which is 1199 01:12:48.319 --> 01:12:53.279 kind of a modern activity tracker, but it's a little 1200 01:12:53.279 --> 01:12:57.880 bit more refined because it also collects light information. What 1201 01:12:57.920 --> 01:13:00.680 he found was most of these argentinian Us who have 1202 01:13:00.800 --> 01:13:06.199 no access to electricity, they consistently go to bed somewhere 1203 01:13:06.199 --> 01:13:08.600 between three to three and a half hours after sunset. 1204 01:13:08.840 --> 01:13:10.880 So this is very important because we always think that 1205 01:13:12.920 --> 01:13:15.319 our ancestors when they didn't have electricity, as soon as 1206 01:13:15.319 --> 01:13:17.159 the sun went down, they just went to sleep. No, 1207 01:13:18.199 --> 01:13:21.720 the fire extended the evening, so they were staying awake 1208 01:13:21.880 --> 01:13:28.079 for three to four hours, kind of you know, decompressing 1209 01:13:28.119 --> 01:13:32.720 themselves that we say, and then doing all these activities, cooking, 1210 01:13:32.840 --> 01:13:35.880 selling meals, and then they would go to sleep. And 1211 01:13:35.920 --> 01:13:38.479 if you look at the sleep onset variability, it was 1212 01:13:38.720 --> 01:13:42.039 very small, like they're going to bed almost within fifteen 1213 01:13:42.039 --> 01:13:43.880 to thirty minutes standard deviation. 1214 01:13:44.760 --> 01:13:47.680 So no night owls versus mourning people. 1215 01:13:47.439 --> 01:13:48.720 The scantly, So we'll get to that. 1216 01:13:48.880 --> 01:13:53.399 None of this I get attacked by for many reasons. 1217 01:13:53.399 --> 01:13:55.399 It just goes with the business I'm in of being 1218 01:13:55.439 --> 01:13:59.000 public facing these days. But every time I talk about 1219 01:13:59.199 --> 01:14:02.000 viewing sunrise or low angle sunlight, you know, getting some 1220 01:14:02.000 --> 01:14:04.800 sunlight early, that someone says, well, I'm a night owl, 1221 01:14:04.800 --> 01:14:08.159 and they just it's almost like a protest of trying 1222 01:14:08.159 --> 01:14:13.760 to protect identity. It's become this ideological identity related thing. 1223 01:14:13.800 --> 01:14:16.039 I'm a night out, I'm a morning person and I'm not. 1224 01:14:16.359 --> 01:14:18.439 But you're

telling me that in these cultures where there 1225 01:14:18.439 --> 01:14:21.439 is int electricity but there is fire, people are going 1226 01:14:21.479 --> 01:14:24.520 to sleep within all of them within about fifteen minutes 1227 01:14:24.560 --> 01:14:27.239 of one another. Yeah, so there is no such thing 1228 01:14:27.239 --> 01:14:29.439 as a night owl or a morning person in the context. 1229 01:14:29.520 --> 01:14:33.840 So actually I asked him pointedly because and then he said, no, 1230 01:14:34.119 --> 01:14:37.279 he has not seen and she has dragged hundreds of people. 1231 01:14:37.560 --> 01:14:41.920 And if we ask there are many, many sleep researchers, 1232 01:14:42.560 --> 01:14:47.119 at least the public facing sleep physicians or experts, they 1233 01:14:47.159 --> 01:14:49.880 will say, yeah, we can say one third of people 1234 01:14:49.880 --> 01:14:52.920 at night owl, one third of morning, and then one third. 1235 01:14:53.680 --> 01:14:55.720 But they call them like bears, wolves, and you know, 1236 01:14:55.760 --> 01:14:57.560 and I'm not being disparaging of that idea. I think 1237 01:14:57.560 --> 01:15:01.560 people really do feel as if they orient towards one 1238 01:15:01.600 --> 01:15:02.399 pattern or another. 1239 01:15:02.600 --> 01:15:05.279 When I was an undergrad student, I never went to 1240 01:15:05.359 --> 01:15:09.000 bed before midnight, and actually midnight was my going to 1241 01:15:09.039 --> 01:15:12.279 bed time exactly like eleven forty five, I'll try to 1242 01:15:12.600 --> 01:15:15.359 get ready to hit bed, and then by twelve I'm 1243 01:15:15.399 --> 01:15:17.279 in bed, and I used to get about six six. 1244 01:15:17.279 --> 01:15:19.880 Fifteen with still that's a pretty short sleep. 1245 01:15:19.640 --> 01:15:22.920 With an alarm, of course. But then daytime, I used 1246 01:15:22.920 --> 01:15:25.119 to take forty five minutes to one hour nap, and 1247 01:15:25.199 --> 01:15:30.000 there was regular like even if whenever I got time. 1248 01:15:30.239 --> 01:15:32.840 Of course, in college, you know, you don't have the 1249 01:15:32.880 --> 01:15:35.880 whole day. Unlike in high school, you don't have the 1250 01:15:36.239 --> 01:15:38.520 opportunity to nap, but in college you can't. 1251 01:15:38.560 --> 01:15:39.880 I might have been one of those kids with his 1252 01:15:39.920 --> 01:15:41.800 hoodie on napping on the desk, but they come around 1253 01:15:41.840 --> 01:15:42.479 and they wake you up. 1254 01:15:42.560 --> 01:15:44.800 Yeah, but and this guy's just come back to the 1255 01:15:44.840 --> 01:15:47.960 dorm and after lunch usually I used to take nap. 1256 01:15:48.920 --> 01:15:54.479 So then in grad school, I remember I rarely went 1257 01:15:54.520 --> 01:15:57.279 to bed before two am, and I could have clearly 1258 01:15:57.279 --> 01:15:59.520 said that I'm a night owl, and actually I was 1259 01:15:59.560 --> 01:16:03.600 it not night owl. It was very comfortable staying

off 1260 01:16:03.680 --> 01:16:08.119 so late. I was very productive doing experiments, writing all 1261 01:16:08.119 --> 01:16:16.479 these manuscripts mostly. But then afterwards, when I look back 1262 01:16:16.960 --> 01:16:20.800 in post doc, when I had when we had our daughter, 1263 01:16:22.800 --> 01:16:26.560 then things started changing because you have to put the 1264 01:16:26.560 --> 01:16:31.560 baby to sleep, and then after the baby slaves, it's 1265 01:16:31.640 --> 01:16:35.000 almost when you have a baby, your life revolves around 1266 01:16:35.039 --> 01:16:38.319 the baby. So then we had to dim down the light. 1267 01:16:39.359 --> 01:16:42.600 There is no caffeine and alcohol, drinking or any other 1268 01:16:42.640 --> 01:16:45.039 things after the baby slaves because we cannot do too 1269 01:16:45.119 --> 01:16:48.399 much noise. And so then I realized that no, I'm 1270 01:16:48.439 --> 01:16:51.920 actually not a night owl, and I became kind of 1271 01:16:52.039 --> 01:16:55.600 more normal because I could go to sleep between ten 1272 01:16:55.640 --> 01:17:01.279 and eleven, and that's how I thought, well, maybe this 1273 01:17:01.439 --> 01:17:04.760 was very unique to me. But what is interesting is 1274 01:17:05.880 --> 01:17:11.800 I have another colleague, good friend, Ken Wright, Junior Colorado 1275 01:17:11.920 --> 01:17:17.079 at Colorado, and he also had guard students and post 1276 01:17:17.119 --> 01:17:20.319 dogs like me, who strongly believed that they were night 1277 01:17:20.399 --> 01:17:24.840 owls just like everybody else. And he took ken took 1278 01:17:24.880 --> 01:17:28.199 the whole love for camping. And when they were camping, 1279 01:17:28.439 --> 01:17:31.239 of course there is less light and a lot of 1280 01:17:31.560 --> 01:17:34.880 physical activity hiking during the day, and they all went 1281 01:17:34.960 --> 01:17:38.439 to bed between nine and ten thirty PM. 1282 01:17:38.680 --> 01:17:41.359 I of that study, Yeah, what suching just described as 1283 01:17:41.399 --> 01:17:42.960 a study. I think there were two studies. 1284 01:17:43.159 --> 01:17:43.560 There are too. 1285 01:17:43.880 --> 01:17:47.199 And what's interesting, as I recall, is that after going 1286 01:17:47.239 --> 01:17:50.880 camping for a weekend where people wake with us more 1287 01:17:50.960 --> 01:17:53.479 or less with the sunrise, yeah, and go to sleep 1288 01:17:53.720 --> 01:17:58.720 a few hours after sunset, they're melatonin rhythms and cortisol 1289 01:17:58.800 --> 01:18:03.760 rhythms and sleep wake rhythms. Persisted on that schedule for 1290 01:18:03.800 --> 01:18:08.199 several weeks, despite returning to environments where there was a 1291 01:18:08.199 --> 01:18:11.359 lot of artificial lighting, which I find amazing that just 1292 01:18:11.399 --> 01:18:15.840 a weekend of consistent rising and going to bed with 1293 01:18:15.880 --> 01:18:20.159 the sunrise and sunset more or less allowed a reset 1294 01:18:20.199 --> 01:18:21.640 that was very long lasting. 1295 01:18:23.039 --> 01:18:28.239 So actually, even in Horazio study he found that almost 1296 01:18:28.479 --> 01:18:32.199 all the Tobas they wake up around sunrise time. And 1297 01:18:32.880 --> 01:18:34.760 it's amazing when I look at the standard views and 1298 01:18:34.800 --> 01:18:35.720 it's like so tight. 1299 01:18:36.640 --> 01:18:39.239 So take that night owl so called night owls. I 1300 01:18:39.279 --> 01:18:41.760 also didn't graduate school. I would work until two am. 1301 01:18:41.800 --> 01:18:43.760 I loved it a blast. Music in the lab everyone 1302 01:18:43.840 --> 01:18:46.640 was at home pretty much, not everyone, but there were 1303 01:18:46.640 --> 01:18:49.319 the night crew. And then I'd get in sometime around 1304 01:18:50.479 --> 01:18:52.640 get up or sometime around nine thirty ten, and then 1305 01:18:52.680 --> 01:18:54.960 get in around eleven. And it was no problem because 1306 01:18:55.279 --> 01:18:57.680 I was going to stay so very late. And then 1307 01:18:57.680 --> 01:19:00.680 over time I noticed I've become more locked to standard schedule. 1308 01:19:00.720 --> 01:19:02.039 So I think what we're saying is that the clock 1309 01:19:02.119 --> 01:19:05.039 can our internal clocks can shift. Yeah, but this idea 1310 01:19:05.079 --> 01:19:09.800 that we are genetically biased towards one schedule or another 1311 01:19:09.960 --> 01:19:12.760 may need revisiting. That's what that's a conclusion. 1312 01:19:12.920 --> 01:19:16.479 Taking from couple of aspects. One is, you know, some 1313 01:19:16.560 --> 01:19:20.600 people are genetically so pre programmed. Because the other cliff 1314 01:19:20.640 --> 01:19:25.399 side is what is called technically familial advanced lip syndrome. 1315 01:19:25.880 --> 01:19:30.960 So these people, you can give them caffeine or whatever, 1316 01:19:31.319 --> 01:19:34.199 but they will fall asleep, say at eight o'clock. They 1317 01:19:34.239 --> 01:19:38.520 cannot stay away till nine or ten. And since it's 1318 01:19:38.560 --> 01:19:42.239 a very strong phenotype in sleep and Cicadian rhythm filled, 1319 01:19:42.399 --> 01:19:45.880 they are very well studied. So in fact, Louis Patachek 1320 01:19:45.920 --> 01:19:49.079 and Ingui Fu they were the first one to track 1321 01:19:49.239 --> 01:19:51.520 one family like this, and then they figured out there 1322 01:19:51.560 --> 01:19:55.039 was a mutation in one of the clock gens period 1323 01:19:55.119 --> 01:20:01.520 two that clock gin, and that mutation the clock run 1324 01:20:01.560 --> 01:20:04.520 in a way that these people went to bed very early. 1325 01:20:04.680 --> 01:20:10.000 I guess historically, given these fireside chats, that those people 1326 01:20:10.039 --> 01:20:13.880 were probably not contributing much to the political discussion. Whatever 1327 01:20:13.920 --> 01:20:15.760 there was decided after they went to sleep, is what 1328

01:20:15.800 --> 01:20:18.279 they woke up into. That reminds me because as you 1329 01:20:18.279 --> 01:20:21.880 were describing the difference between nighttime discussions versus morning discussions, 1330 01:20:22.000 --> 01:20:24.680 is there any theme to what is discussed in the 1331 01:20:24.720 --> 01:20:26.960 morning versus and the nighttimeer of people just sipping there, 1332 01:20:27.039 --> 01:20:30.880 eating and sipping their caffeine and just waking up. But 1333 01:20:31.000 --> 01:20:34.159 is there are there any ideas about what morning discussions 1334 01:20:34.199 --> 01:20:35.199 really consistent. 1335 01:20:34.880 --> 01:20:39.880 Morning discussions or daytime discussions are mostly about work and 1336 01:20:40.960 --> 01:20:45.159 like hunting, gathering or farming all their stuff. And even 1337 01:20:45.199 --> 01:20:48.199 these days, that's what we do. We you know you, 1338 01:20:49.479 --> 01:20:51.560 I go to walk and it's mostly one meeting up 1339 01:20:51.600 --> 01:20:55.359 to another and we're talking about how mensfar in different 1340 01:20:55.399 --> 01:20:59.359 committees and are solving problems, or your students come with questions. 1341 01:20:59.359 --> 01:21:02.479 You have your tea or the office hours, all these 1342 01:21:02.479 --> 01:21:08.880 things work related. We're not talking serious philosophy unless you're 1343 01:21:08.880 --> 01:21:11.800 in a philosophy department and you're talking about political science. 1344 01:21:13.079 --> 01:21:16.239 And also we are not singing and dancing. So that's 1345 01:21:16.279 --> 01:21:20.920 why the evening activity even these days are very different. 1346 01:21:21.439 --> 01:21:26.680 And typically the evening activities where we express ourselves, we 1347 01:21:26.800 --> 01:21:29.960 express who we are. We feel like we are free, 1348 01:21:30.359 --> 01:21:34.520 and you know, you and I we have this academic 1349 01:21:34.600 --> 01:21:37.640 intellectual freedom. We can talk about our work just like 1350 01:21:37.680 --> 01:21:40.000 we're talking now. There are a lot of people who 1351 01:21:40.079 --> 01:21:43.600 work for even in tech industry. They may be working 1352 01:21:43.640 --> 01:21:46.880 for Google and all these big tech companies. They can't 1353 01:21:46.880 --> 01:21:48.680 talk about their work to anybody else. 1354 01:21:49.199 --> 01:21:50.039 It's all secret. 1355 01:21:50.119 --> 01:21:54.119 It's all secret. So just imagine they're staying up, so 1356 01:21:54.399 --> 01:21:58.760 they're spending more than half of the wake up time 1357 01:21:59.399 --> 01:22:03.920 at work thinking and doing work, but they cannot talk 1358 01:22:03.960 --> 01:22:07.399 about that work, even sometimes to their own family members, 1359 01:22:08.399 --> 01:22:11.119 So then what happens for them. A lot of people 1360 01:22:11.159 --> 01:22:13.680 also do the same thing, like the person who is 1361 01:22:13.840 --> 01:22:17.600 going and baking

an restaurant or cooking, or the person 1362 01:22:17.640 --> 01:22:20.640 who is taking trust and driving. 1363 01:22:21.600 --> 01:22:22.960 Can't talk about their patients. 1364 01:22:23.119 --> 01:22:26.720 Yeah, yeah, yeah, And some people just don't want to 1365 01:22:26.760 --> 01:22:29.000 talk about it. It's so stressful. They don't want to 1366 01:22:29.000 --> 01:22:31.880 bring that stress home. So that's why I always say 1367 01:22:31.960 --> 01:22:35.920 that from sunset until we go to bed. During that time, 1368 01:22:36.000 --> 01:22:39.600 we try to find time for ourselves. People say this 1369 01:22:39.640 --> 01:22:44.239 is me time. The me time is essentially we want 1370 01:22:44.279 --> 01:22:48.359 to truly express who we are, or we want to 1371 01:22:49.199 --> 01:22:52.880 entertain ourselves. Because on the fireside chat, it's not that 1372 01:22:52.960 --> 01:22:56.840 everybody was a performer. There are also some audience, so 1373 01:22:56.880 --> 01:23:00.159 we always switch our roles. Sometimes we are performing and 1374 01:23:00.199 --> 01:23:03.560 sometimes observing. So that's what happens with me time. 1375 01:23:04.439 --> 01:23:07.439 I love this. So maybe social media time should be 1376 01:23:07.479 --> 01:23:10.159 restricted to just maybe a small portion of that evening time, 1377 01:23:10.199 --> 01:23:12.479 because I would hope that people would also interact socially 1378 01:23:12.960 --> 01:23:14.239 with in the room, maybe in. 1379 01:23:14.159 --> 01:23:17.520 A constructive way, or maybe we use that for connect 1380 01:23:17.520 --> 01:23:20.600 with your family members. Whom we love or you can 1381 01:23:20.800 --> 01:23:23.720 have some productive discussion or something. So it's it's kind 1382 01:23:23.720 --> 01:23:24.239 of interesting. 1383 01:23:24.680 --> 01:23:27.680 I think it's extremely interesting because I think again, this 1384 01:23:28.159 --> 01:23:31.760 conversation about time restricted feeding is really a conversation about 1385 01:23:31.880 --> 01:23:34.880 Securitian rhythms and sleepwake activity and human evolution. 1386 01:23:35.159 --> 01:23:39.479 Right. So that's why let's go back to this night 1387 01:23:39.520 --> 01:23:43.560 out because we kind of made a comment that maybe 1388 01:23:43.600 --> 01:23:46.319 it's not genetic. But uh, this is where I'm still 1389 01:23:46.319 --> 01:23:49.840 wrapping my head around because you know, these days there's 1390 01:23:49.880 --> 01:23:54.720 some guus studies where they're trying to look at night 1391 01:23:54.760 --> 01:24:00.359 owls to see whether there are some genetic lincolns. And 1392 01:24:00.520 --> 01:24:03.319 you know, sometimes we always think, yeah, if you take 1393 01:24:03.319 --> 01:24:05.960 half a million people, of course you'll find some low 1394 01:24:06.079 --> 01:24:10.039 side that. But going back to this idea that are 1395 01:24:10.119 --> 01:24:14.359 some people more sensitive to light, so that it's likely 1396 01:24:14.520 --> 01:24:18.119 that the same level of light, even in the same household, 1397 01:24:18.920 --> 01:24:21.600 may make some people stay away later into the night, 1398 01:24:22.000 --> 01:24:24.600 whereas other people are more resistant to light so that 1399 01:24:24.680 --> 01:24:28.439 they can go to bed early. And since light has 1400 01:24:28.520 --> 01:24:32.119 become so prevalent these days, and this toabas story that 1401 01:24:32.159 --> 01:24:34.600 we're talking about or people going on camping, that is 1402 01:24:34.760 --> 01:24:41.199 we have removed that light. So there is some evidence 1403 01:24:41.239 --> 01:24:47.000 that people's light sensitivity, particularly the IPIGC or this intrinsically 1404 01:24:47.039 --> 01:24:51.359 photosensitive retinal ganglion cell, or the simple speakers, the blue 1405 01:24:51.399 --> 01:24:55.159 light sensors in our eyes, there seems to be even 1406 01:24:55.359 --> 01:24:59.920 one log unit change in sensitivity as measured by peop 1407 01:25:00.000 --> 01:25:00.760 build constriction. 1408 01:25:01.239 --> 01:25:05.560 So for some people, a small amount of artificial light 1409 01:25:05.600 --> 01:25:08.640 at night could really shift their circadian clock and wake them. 1410 01:25:08.600 --> 01:25:11.439 Up essentially, and then put some Yeah. 1411 01:25:11.279 --> 01:25:14.640 I'm very sensitive to light at night. Yeah, exquisitely sensitive 1412 01:25:14.680 --> 01:25:14.920 to it. 1413 01:25:15.119 --> 01:25:17.039 Oh so then you are like a teenager. 1414 01:25:17.279 --> 01:25:20.520 Yes, in many ways I've been told this, Thank you. 1415 01:25:22.039 --> 01:25:25.560 I think I have actually switched to using a red 1416 01:25:25.720 --> 01:25:29.560 night light. But I should be clear, not a fancy, 1417 01:25:29.840 --> 01:25:32.239 high cost red light for sake of any kind of 1418 01:25:32.239 --> 01:25:35.720 infrared simulation, but a red party light type light. And 1419 01:25:35.760 --> 01:25:38.239 I find that that was based on reading one study 1420 01:25:38.239 --> 01:25:40.039 that we covered in an episode on jet lag and 1421 01:25:40.039 --> 01:25:43.239 shift work, which was that it seems to reduce the 1422 01:25:43.479 --> 01:25:47.520 cortisol releasing properties of light at night to use red 1423 01:25:47.520 --> 01:25:50.520 shifted light. So I just use a red light. Well, 1424 01:25:50.520 --> 01:25:51.960 I actually travel with one if I go to an 1425 01:25:52.000 --> 01:25:54.000 airbnb or hotel and I switch to red light, and 1426 01:25:54.039 --> 01:25:56.199 I find that I fall asleep and stay asleep throughout 1427 01:25:56.239 --> 01:25:59.079 the night much more consistently, especially in when I'm in 1428 01:25:59.079 --> 01:26:02.479 new environments where it always makes it disruptive to sleep. 1429 01:26:03.479 --> 01:26:06.439 It's made an enormous difference in the depth and duration 1430 01:26:06.520 --> 01:26:10.840 of my

sleep. And because oftentimes hotel lights you know, 1431 01:26:10.880 --> 01:26:12.520 in the bathroom will turn them on. It just you're 1432 01:26:12.560 --> 01:26:14.640 just getting bean And you're right, some people don't seem 1433 01:26:14.760 --> 01:26:19.000 to be bothered by that. I really struggle with that. 1434 01:26:19.319 --> 01:26:23.479 Yeah, And in fact, in teenage, right after puberty, there 1435 01:26:23.520 --> 01:26:27.319 seems to be I think that's when the teenagers become 1436 01:26:27.359 --> 01:26:32.359 more sensitive sensitive to light. And it's very It's well 1437 01:26:32.399 --> 01:26:35.520 known that the teenage boys and girls, they tend to 1438 01:26:35.560 --> 01:26:38.079 stay awake late into the night, and they can stay 1439 01:26:38.119 --> 01:26:43.520 up to twelve past midnight. Although they can stay off 1440 01:26:43.560 --> 01:26:47.199 that LD, that doesn't mean that their sleep schedule is reduced. 1441 01:26:47.199 --> 01:26:50.239 Their body still needs the same amount of sleep as 1442 01:26:50.319 --> 01:26:53.680 other teenagers. So that's why they are more likely not 1443 01:26:53.760 --> 01:26:55.840 to wake up at six thirty or seven when we 1444 01:26:56.680 --> 01:26:59.359 expect them to wake up and go to school. 1445 01:27:00.479 --> 01:27:03.960 I have a question, and I ask every circadian related 1446 01:27:04.000 --> 01:27:06.920 biologists I can come into contact with this, and no 1447 01:27:06.920 --> 01:27:08.560 one has been able to give me an answer one 1448 01:27:08.560 --> 01:27:11.119 way or the other. But I grew up hearing that 1449 01:27:11.199 --> 01:27:14.680 every hour of sleep before midnight was of more value 1450 01:27:14.720 --> 01:27:17.960 or potency than the hours after midnight. And indeed I 1451 01:27:18.000 --> 01:27:19.960 find that if I go to sleep at nine thirty 1452 01:27:20.039 --> 01:27:23.359 or ten PM, I can wake up at three or four. 1453 01:27:23.399 --> 01:27:26.119 I am feeling pretty fantastic and ready to lean into 1454 01:27:26.119 --> 01:27:28.279 the day. But if I get the equivalent number of 1455 01:27:28.319 --> 01:27:32.319 hours of sleep starting at midnight, I feel like complete 1456 01:27:32.359 --> 01:27:35.079 garbage when I wake up after five six hours. So 1457 01:27:35.920 --> 01:27:38.800 is there any truth to the idea that going to 1458 01:27:38.920 --> 01:27:44.199 sleep within three hours of sunset is somehow better for 1459 01:27:44.239 --> 01:27:46.880 our circadian timing mechanisms? 1460 01:27:46.960 --> 01:27:49.119 Well, there are a few things. One, you said that 1461 01:27:49.159 --> 01:27:51.439 you have very sensitive to light, so I assume that 1462 01:27:51.479 --> 01:27:54.600 you also avoid bright light in the evening as best 1463 01:27:54.600 --> 01:27:57.159 I can. Yeh, as best as you could. Yeah, And 1464 01:27:57.199 --> 01:28:00.760 then what is happening is with a sense of bright light, 1465 01:28:01.399 --> 01:28:04.640 your melatonin levels begin to rise, so you are prepared 1466 01:28:04.680 --> 01:28:08.239 for sleep. Of course, this is something that we cannot measure, 1467 01:28:08.279 --> 01:28:11.560 because measuring melatonin in every one hour or thirty minutes 1468 01:28:12.920 --> 01:28:16.920 is very difficult, and there is no consumer facing product yet, 1469 01:28:18.199 --> 01:28:21.920 so it's likely that your body is preparing very well 1470 01:28:22.119 --> 01:28:24.920 under this dim light to fall asleep, and when you're 1471 01:28:25.000 --> 01:28:29.720 trying to stay awake and go sleep at midnight. Then 1472 01:28:29.920 --> 01:28:32.279 maybe from midnight for the first three or four hours 1473 01:28:32.279 --> 01:28:35.479 you're sleeping well, but then after that your melotonin level 1474 01:28:35.680 --> 01:28:39.640 might be beginning to fall. And it's not only melotony 1475 01:28:39.640 --> 01:28:42.760 in your core body temperature and then your heart rate 1476 01:28:42.800 --> 01:28:45.800 and everything is changing to make you awake. But the 1477 01:28:45.880 --> 01:28:49.800 sleep debt that you have accumulated is pushing you to 1478 01:28:49.840 --> 01:28:53.159 be in bed. So there is this tensum between the 1479 01:28:53.199 --> 01:28:58.840 cicicadian aspect and your sleep debt, and unfortunately you cannot 1480 01:28:59.279 --> 01:29:02.279 have good night, tough, restorative sleep for the second half 1481 01:29:02.319 --> 01:29:04.399 of the sleep because of the Tenson. 1482 01:29:04.720 --> 01:29:05.640 That makes good sense. 1483 01:29:05.760 --> 01:29:08.560 Yeah, so that's why you know you are not the 1484 01:29:08.560 --> 01:29:12.520 only one, and there are many people who who experience that, 1485 01:29:12.680 --> 01:29:15.319 and in fact a lot of people think that, well, 1486 01:29:16.039 --> 01:29:18.039 this may be the way I sleep. Maybe I'm not. 1487 01:29:18.880 --> 01:29:24.000 I am not designed to sleep restoratively until you know, 1488 01:29:24.039 --> 01:29:26.760 I sleep one day just like the camping trip. 1489 01:29:27.760 --> 01:29:30.000 And then they realize what it feels like to what 1490 01:29:30.600 --> 01:29:33.880 you're missing. Yeah, absolutely, I want to make sure that 1491 01:29:33.920 --> 01:29:36.800 we talk about the other aspect of fire, which is 1492 01:29:37.000 --> 01:29:40.159 you had a paper that came out recently, very interesting 1493 01:29:40.199 --> 01:29:43.880 paper studying firefighters and time restricted feeding and firefighters. Would 1494 01:29:43.880 --> 01:29:46.199 you share with us the general contour, maybe even some 1495 01:29:46.239 --> 01:29:48.560 of the specifics of that study, because I think it's 1496 01:29:48.920 --> 01:29:51.840 very interesting for for sake of shift workers, but for 1497 01:29:52.000 --> 01:29:54.399 everybody really to understand these results. 1498 01:29:54.760 --> 01:29:57.520 Yeah. So let's go back to shift workers because this

1499 01:29:57.680 --> 01:30:01.199 also relates to all of us, because I always say 1500 01:30:01.239 --> 01:30:04.119 that each of us is a shift worker or has 1501 01:30:04.279 --> 01:30:07.880 lived the life of a shift worker, and we have 1502 01:30:07.960 --> 01:30:13.279 experienced how terrible difficult it is. And now let's start 1503 01:30:13.319 --> 01:30:15.760 with what is the definition of a shift worker or 1504 01:30:16.359 --> 01:30:21.479 shiftwork like lifestyle. There is no universal definition, unfortunately, but 1505 01:30:21.520 --> 01:30:24.840 there are many European countries, and particularly if you go 1506 01:30:24.880 --> 01:30:31.000 to international level organization, then you'll find some references. Different 1507 01:30:31.039 --> 01:30:35.439 European countries have slightly different definition, which essentially points to 1508 01:30:36.640 --> 01:30:40.159 if you stay awake for two or more hours during 1509 01:30:40.199 --> 01:30:43.479 your habitual sleep time. And when they say habitual sleep time, 1510 01:30:44.680 --> 01:30:47.840 they assume that we are just like you said, we 1511 01:30:47.880 --> 01:30:50.600 are kind of programmed to sleep somewhere between set ten 1512 01:30:51.560 --> 01:30:55.159 pm and then stay in bed and kind of wake 1513 01:30:55.239 --> 01:30:57.880 up after five am. So the idea is if you 1514 01:30:57.960 --> 01:31:01.000 stay if you're staying awake for two or more hours 1515 01:31:01.039 --> 01:31:06.039 between ten pm and five am, and you're engaged in 1516 01:31:06.039 --> 01:31:10.359 some activity, whether it's physical activity or intellectual activity, you 1517 01:31:10.359 --> 01:31:15.079 are not lying in bed and wondering worrying about something, 1518 01:31:15.399 --> 01:31:18.760 but actually working. So that defines that's defined as shiftwork. 1519 01:31:19.079 --> 01:31:20.840 And you don't have to do it every single day, 1520 01:31:21.159 --> 01:31:25.159 even if you do it once a week for fifty weeks, 1521 01:31:26.319 --> 01:31:32.800 then that itself is enough to disrupt your physiology and metabolism, behavior, 1522 01:31:32.840 --> 01:31:36.760 brain function like a shiftworker. The reason is, as you discussed, 1523 01:31:37.840 --> 01:31:43.119 when you change our external timing queue. So in this case, 1524 01:31:43.159 --> 01:31:47.199 when you travel jet lag or traveling across three days, 1525 01:31:47.880 --> 01:31:54.520 three hours of jet lag will take three days to reset. Similarly, 1526 01:31:54.560 --> 01:31:57.680 if you're staying awake for two hours extra, or if 1527 01:31:57.680 --> 01:32:01.039 you're waking up two hours before your habitual wake up time, 1528 01:32:01.840 --> 01:32:05.319 then we just don't get wake up and then be 1529 01:32:05.439 --> 01:32:08.239 engaged in some activity in the dark most of us 1530 01:32:08.399 --> 01:32:12.000 and means unless you are wearing an infrared goggles, we 1531 01:32:12.079 --> 01:32:15.560 turn on

light and light researchs a our clock. So 1532 01:32:15.600 --> 01:32:20.880 in that way, every time we stay up for two 1533 01:32:21.000 --> 01:32:23.920 or more hours even for one night, then for the 1534 01:32:23.920 --> 01:32:26.199 next two nights, our clock is kind of trying to 1535 01:32:26.239 --> 01:32:30.560 catch up. So in that way, for three days the 1536 01:32:30.640 --> 01:32:33.520 day of the disruption and then two days following the disruption, 1537 01:32:34.920 --> 01:32:37.399 our clock is trying to catch up with the outside time. 1538 01:32:38.079 --> 01:32:40.399 So our clock, our body is not on time with 1539 01:32:40.479 --> 01:32:44.880 our clock. So that means almost for half of the 1540 01:32:44.920 --> 01:32:47.720 week or half of the year, our clock is trying 1541 01:32:47.720 --> 01:32:51.560 to catch up. So that's the definition of shipwork. So 1542 01:32:51.680 --> 01:32:57.399 now let's come back to Department of Level Statistics US government. 1543 01:32:59.000 --> 01:33:03.159 They have not been tracking what percentage of people are 1544 01:33:03.159 --> 01:33:07.119 doing shipwork accurately because there are many difficulties in tracking too. 1545 01:33:08.039 --> 01:33:11.720 But it's generally accepted that one in five working adults 1546 01:33:12.479 --> 01:33:16.560 is a card carrying shipworker. Card carrying shipworkers means they 1547 01:33:16.600 --> 01:33:28.960 are nurses, doctors, firefighters, and bakers, truck drivers than many 1548 01:33:29.000 --> 01:33:32.560 in the service industry. So that's one in five, so 1549 01:33:33.119 --> 01:33:37.920 twenty percent of working adults. Then if we think about 1550 01:33:38.159 --> 01:33:41.079 all the college students, just like I was doing and 1551 01:33:41.159 --> 01:33:47.239 you must have done, there are also experience deadlines, grand deadlines. 1552 01:33:47.319 --> 01:33:51.680 Then we are also experiencing experiencing the lifestyle of a shipworker. 1553 01:33:51.720 --> 01:33:55.520 Because we're delaying sleep. Even if you're delaying sleep by 1554 01:33:55.560 --> 01:33:57.840 two hours for most of the college students for five 1555 01:33:57.920 --> 01:34:00.000 days and then the weekend you're trying to catch up. 1556 01:34:00.319 --> 01:34:04.600 That's kind of a Cicicadian disruption going on. Then you 1557 01:34:04.680 --> 01:34:07.199 take one point five or one point six million new 1558 01:34:07.279 --> 01:34:11.800 moms in the US every year. So when the child 1559 01:34:11.840 --> 01:34:14.960 is born and that mother is a shipworker, and actually 1560 01:34:15.000 --> 01:34:18.560 that mother is worse than a shipworker because you know, 1561 01:34:18.640 --> 01:34:21.279 you don't know what time of the night the baby 1562 01:34:21.319 --> 01:34:25.000 will wake up and how many times, and there is 1563 01:34:25.039 --> 01:34:30.920 no weekend in motherhood, so they're also living the life 1564 01:34:30.960 --> 01:34:37.039 of a shipworker. We don't count many food delivery and 1565 01:34:37.640 --> 01:34:41.680 uber driver lift drivers are shipworkers, but many of them 1566 01:34:41.720 --> 01:34:45.039 we know that they live. So in that way, we 1567 01:34:45.119 --> 01:34:48.039 think the actual number of people who are experiencing the 1568 01:34:48.039 --> 01:34:51.319 life of a ship worker is somewhere around fifty percent 1569 01:34:51.359 --> 01:34:56.680 of the adults population at any given time. So that's 1570 01:34:56.720 --> 01:34:59.359 why it's also another point that you might have heard 1571 01:34:59.359 --> 01:35:01.720 from people will say, oh, I cannot do time issue 1572 01:35:01.760 --> 01:35:06.199 eating because my schedule is messed up. I work in 1573 01:35:06.239 --> 01:35:12.279 a different way, and that comes into play. So that's 1574 01:35:12.279 --> 01:35:15.159 why we thought, Okay, so we should try something on 1575 01:35:15.319 --> 01:35:19.399 shipt worker. Another point is although one in five people 1576 01:35:19.520 --> 01:35:25.359 are shipp workers, they carry disproportionately heavier burden of disease 1577 01:35:25.720 --> 01:35:29.359 because almost all is related disease that we can think of, 1578 01:35:29.399 --> 01:35:32.439 whether it's high blood pressure usually high blood pressure starts 1579 01:35:32.439 --> 01:35:39.319 in forties or fifties, high cholesterol, gastro intestinal problem in digestion, 1580 01:35:40.560 --> 01:35:45.479 chronic inflammation of the colon and then even colon cancer 1581 01:35:45.640 --> 01:35:50.840 in many cases, and then of course diabetes. All of 1582 01:35:50.880 --> 01:35:57.600 these are disproproximately more prevalent among shift workers. But then 1583 01:35:57.800 --> 01:36:00.680 when you think about clinical trials, whether it's a drug 1584 01:36:01.560 --> 01:36:06.439 or a lifestyle often one of the top ten exclusion 1585 01:36:06.479 --> 01:36:10.359 factor criteria is shift work. So people who are doing 1586 01:36:10.359 --> 01:36:14.239 shift work, we exclude them from many of these trials. 1587 01:36:15.159 --> 01:36:19.479 One thing is most physicians and most scientists, even people 1588 01:36:19.479 --> 01:36:22.720 who do shift work, they know that their body and 1589 01:36:22.840 --> 01:36:27.439 mind is so messed up that often times even medications 1590 01:36:27.479 --> 01:36:30.199 may not help them. And so that's why if we 1591 01:36:30.239 --> 01:36:33.199 don't try new medication, why to take the risk we 1592 01:36:33.319 --> 01:36:35.920 know it may not help them. And then when it 1593 01:36:35.960 --> 01:36:39.840 comes to lifestyle intervention, whether it's sleep extension for example, 1594 01:36:39.960 --> 01:36:42.279 we cannot do because they are supposed to stay awake 1595 01:36:42.359 --> 01:36:44.640 and do their job. We cannot ask them to stay 1596 01:36:44.680 --> 01:36:50.039 asleep at night. And then physical activity and exercise some 1597

01:36:50.119 --> 01:36:53.520 people can do, but some people are so tired after 1598 01:36:54.079 --> 01:36:57.239 all night that they don't have the energy to do 1599 01:36:57.319 --> 01:37:02.640 physical activity. And then nutrition. Again, most nutrition studies involved 1600 01:37:03.960 --> 01:37:09.479 the participants to come to the clinic and get one 1601 01:37:09.479 --> 01:37:13.520 on one or one or attend group sessions, and they 1602 01:37:13.560 --> 01:37:16.640 cannot come and they cannot have been Sometimes come to 1603 01:37:16.640 --> 01:37:21.319 the clinic visit when people have to take draw blood. 1604 01:37:22.039 --> 01:37:27.239 And in fact there is another caveat that. Just if 1605 01:37:27.560 --> 01:37:34.640 suppose I'm healthy, I have perfectly normal blood pressure, blood glucus, cholesterol, 1606 01:37:34.800 --> 01:37:37.760 everything is normal, and I leave the life of a 1607 01:37:37.800 --> 01:37:42.880 shipworker just for five nights. That means I'm sleeping less 1608 01:37:42.920 --> 01:37:47.640 maybe four or five hours, And even if I don't 1609 01:37:47.720 --> 01:37:52.239 eat at nighttime. Of course, many shift workers also feel hungry, 1610 01:37:52.239 --> 01:37:56.960 and just for to keep their work, they eat. Just 1611 01:37:57.000 --> 01:37:59.720 after five days, my blood glucus level will read on 1612 01:37:59.800 --> 01:38:02.000 more like I'm pre diabetic. Wow. 1613 01:38:02.399 --> 01:38:04.960 I actually saw a study in publishing Proceeds of the 1614 01:38:05.039 --> 01:38:08.720 National Academy that showed that even a hundred lucks dim 1615 01:38:08.800 --> 01:38:11.119 light present in the room while people are sleeping with 1616 01:38:11.159 --> 01:38:16.560 eyes closed can lead to disruptions in mourning, blood glucose levels, 1617 01:38:16.600 --> 01:38:20.479 and directions that are not good one night. So the 1618 01:38:20.840 --> 01:38:24.600 faint clock in the corner, or even a night light 1619 01:38:24.680 --> 01:38:28.479 that's too bright could be problematic. By the way, folks, 1620 01:38:28.479 --> 01:38:32.079 these effects are reversible. So whenever I say these things, 1621 01:38:32.359 --> 01:38:33.960 we get a lot of comments about, oh, my goodness, 1622 01:38:33.960 --> 01:38:35.680 what have I been doing for years? But you know, 1623 01:38:35.800 --> 01:38:38.960 kids with night lights, this is an issue. But what 1624 01:38:39.000 --> 01:38:42.720 I'm hearing is that one in five people are truly 1625 01:38:42.800 --> 01:38:45.479 shift workers in the classic sense their jobs require they 1626 01:38:45.520 --> 01:38:47.880 work at night or into the night and sleep into 1627 01:38:47.880 --> 01:38:53.359 the day. But far more people are shift workers by 1628 01:38:53.439 --> 01:38:56.000 virtue of the fact that they're tweeting or working or 1629 01:38:56.039 --> 01:38:58.800 watching movies at night even though it's not work, and 1630 01:38:58.920 --> 01:39:01.720 that they're not being paid for that time. They are 1631 01:39:02.199 --> 01:39:05.039 essentially operating like shift workers. If we add those two 1632 01:39:05.039 --> 01:39:09.199 groups together, would we say it's what a third of Americans? 1633 01:39:09.479 --> 01:39:12.279 I would say half of America, half of America if 1634 01:39:12.279 --> 01:39:15.640 you take teenagers, because you know, high school students and 1635 01:39:15.680 --> 01:39:19.680 college students, because again going back to Horacio's study, because 1636 01:39:19.720 --> 01:39:24.079 Horacio also collected activity data from high school students and 1637 01:39:24.119 --> 01:39:27.199 college students, and we have replicated that with high school 1638 01:39:27.199 --> 01:39:29.800 students and college staurants in San Diego. So that's Seattle 1639 01:39:30.279 --> 01:39:34.000 and San Diego. And this study, now, there are many 1640 01:39:34.079 --> 01:39:37.479 slip researchers they have in collecting this data, and what 1641 01:39:37.560 --> 01:39:41.720 we find is typically the high school students they are 1642 01:39:41.800 --> 01:39:45.880 going to beds around midnight, and college students, at least 1643 01:39:45.920 --> 01:39:49.520 the UCUS students, we found maybe one out of hundred 1644 01:39:49.560 --> 01:39:51.159 who went to bed before midnight. 1645 01:39:51.920 --> 01:39:55.680 That reminds me that Horacio Glacias just publish this really 1646 01:39:55.760 --> 01:40:01.119 nice paper showing that counter to what we've leave students. Now, 1647 01:40:01.159 --> 01:40:03.239 there's the University of Washington in Seattle, as you mentioned, 1648 01:40:03.279 --> 01:40:06.800 where it's very dark in the winter. Young people, these 1649 01:40:06.840 --> 01:40:10.199 are people in their twenties are staying up later in 1650 01:40:10.239 --> 01:40:13.199 the winter months compared to the summer months. Yeah, which is, 1651 01:40:13.279 --> 01:40:15.880 you know, totally counterintuitive. You think everyone stays up late 1652 01:40:15.920 --> 01:40:17.359 in the summer and goes to bed early in the winter, 1653 01:40:17.399 --> 01:40:19.880 but because of artificial lighting, it's the exact opposite. 1654 01:40:20.079 --> 01:40:23.359 Yeah. So and another I don't know how that HARASSU 1655 01:40:23.880 --> 01:40:27.800 monitored it, but my other suspicion, I'm not saying whether 1656 01:40:27.840 --> 01:40:30.880 it's true in winter we are more likely to consume 1657 01:40:30.920 --> 01:40:34.880 more coffee hot chocolate in the evening, and that might 1658 01:40:35.000 --> 01:40:37.960 also be delaying sleep onset. 1659 01:40:38.279 --> 01:40:39.000 That makes sense. 1660 01:40:39.159 --> 01:40:43.359 So in that way again here is another thing which 1661 01:40:43.479 --> 01:40:50.239 can be related to policy or practice at UCSAN Institute. 1662 01:40:50.680 --> 01:40:54.800 So what happened during COVID was everybody went to remote learning. 1663 01:40:56.760 -->

01:41:00.840 The assignments became digital and assignments some miss became digital 1664 01:41:01.119 --> 01:41:04.680 and there are many systems online systems that came into play, 1665 01:41:05.640 --> 01:41:10.039 and by default the assignment some miss on deadline became midnight. 1666 01:41:11.479 --> 01:41:13.479 So then now what is happening is I don't know 1667 01:41:13.520 --> 01:41:17.399 about Stanford, maybe you were when you are giving assignment, 1668 01:41:17.920 --> 01:41:21.960 when is the deadline midnight? Midnight? So then most of us, 1669 01:41:22.039 --> 01:41:25.520 most tourans, they will try to cram as much as possible, 1670 01:41:25.600 --> 01:41:28.239 try to solve bys much as possible, and submit at midnight. 1671 01:41:29.439 --> 01:41:31.640 And it'll be really cool to go back to your 1672 01:41:31.840 --> 01:41:35.720 system administrator to see is there so many the frequency 1673 01:41:35.760 --> 01:41:39.880 plot of pickles distribution of what time people are submitting 1674 01:41:39.920 --> 01:41:44.479 the assignment because we know means when we submit our grant. 1675 01:41:45.680 --> 01:41:47.680 Yeah, so I mean, you know, you hear about the 1676 01:41:47.680 --> 01:41:51.560 obesity crisis, the crisis of metabolic disorders, not just in 1677 01:41:51.600 --> 01:41:53.279 the US, but everywhere in the world. I mean, it's 1678 01:41:53.319 --> 01:41:56.640 really striking. I remember going to a Keystone Meeting scientific 1679 01:41:56.680 --> 01:41:58.840 meeting in the early two thousands, and there was a 1680 01:41:58.840 --> 01:42:01.399 map of the United States and showed where the obesity 1681 01:42:01.439 --> 01:42:03.880 rates were over thirty percent in adults, and the entire 1682 01:42:03.920 --> 01:42:06.159 country basically was lighting up like crazy. Now it would 1683 01:42:06.159 --> 01:42:08.479 be the entire country, but there were these kind of 1684 01:42:08.760 --> 01:42:16.000 zones in the middle that were almost devoid of obesity Colorado, 1685 01:42:16.399 --> 01:42:19.840 namely Idaho at that time. Those are now also fallen 1686 01:42:19.960 --> 01:42:23.960 under the umbrella of rampant obesity. And everyone is speculating, Okay, 1687 01:42:24.039 --> 01:42:28.560 is it you know, is it seed oils? Is it? 1688 01:42:28.600 --> 01:42:28.920 Is it? This? 1689 01:42:29.119 --> 01:42:29.279 Is it? 1690 01:42:29.359 --> 01:42:31.920 That? Is it highly processed foods. I'm guessing it's all 1691 01:42:31.960 --> 01:42:34.680 of those things, including lack of activity. But one has 1692 01:42:34.760 --> 01:42:36.760 to wonder, given everything we're talking about in terms of 1693 01:42:36.760 --> 01:42:40.680 metabolic dysfunction, late shifted eating, all these issues with late 1694 01:42:40.720 --> 01:42:43.560 shifted eating and staying up late with artificial lighting, but 1695 01:42:43.640 --> 01:42:46.119 they're not that could be one of the major factors 1696 01:42:46.119 --> 01:42:47.720 in the so called obesity crisis. 1697 01:42:47.760 --> 01:42:51.439 It's likely. You know, we always say freshman fifteen, that's right, 1698 01:42:51.920 --> 01:42:55.640 because this kid is getting fifteen pounds in their freshmen 1699 01:42:55.720 --> 01:43:00.279 near in college. And this is where I think, as 1700 01:43:00.520 --> 01:43:03.920 educator professors, it will be interesting to go back and 1701 01:43:03.960 --> 01:43:07.520 see what can we do because another thing that's also 1702 01:43:07.560 --> 01:43:11.640 becoming more and more common. For example, I give a 1703 01:43:11.680 --> 01:43:15.159 CICADI under them class means I just give two lectures. 1704 01:43:15.439 --> 01:43:19.399 And I remember when I started fifteen seventeen years ago, 1705 01:43:19.720 --> 01:43:23.479 that lecture used to be around one thirty PM or 1706 01:43:23.520 --> 01:43:25.640 two pm in the afternoon, and it's ad two and 1707 01:43:25.680 --> 01:43:29.159 a half hour lectures or it's done by five and 1708 01:43:29.199 --> 01:43:33.359 for the last before the pandemic, I realized that they 1709 01:43:33.479 --> 01:43:37.239 change the timing. Now the lecture was starting at seven PM, 1710 01:43:37.880 --> 01:43:40.279 so I was finishing by nine to nine thirty PM. 1711 01:43:40.600 --> 01:43:43.920 And these kids they had to go and eat after 1712 01:43:44.000 --> 01:43:49.039 nine thirty thirty thirty socialized fundation, fireside chat, and then 1713 01:43:49.079 --> 01:43:53.600 to express themselves, like to feel free from assignments. Why 1714 01:43:53.600 --> 01:43:56.079 are they going to do that? After the summitday assignment 1715 01:43:56.600 --> 01:43:58.960 then they're going to do that. So that's why we 1716 01:43:58.960 --> 01:44:02.439 had to go back and visit this issue. Say, okay, 1717 01:44:02.560 --> 01:44:06.239 so for adults, for most of us who are working 1718 01:44:06.279 --> 01:44:10.199 at day job, our deadline is five pm in most guesses, 1719 01:44:11.079 --> 01:44:15.399 right meants at least in university system, the person who 1720 01:44:15.479 --> 01:44:19.680 is submitting the grant of who is doing taking care 1721 01:44:19.680 --> 01:44:22.399 of my irb or ieclock. They're all living at five o'clock, 1722 01:44:22.439 --> 01:44:24.880 so for me, everything has to end by five. 1723 01:44:24.880 --> 01:44:28.119 I think for most people out there. So this raises 1724 01:44:28.159 --> 01:44:32.239 a kind of macroscopic question, which is maybe it's not 1725 01:44:32.319 --> 01:44:34.680 so much about restricting the feeding window, but maybe it's 1726 01:44:34.720 --> 01:44:38.640 about feeding mostly and being active mostly in the early 1727 01:44:38.640 --> 01:44:40.279 part of the day. I mean, you know, I could 1728 01:44:40.319 --> 01:44:44.319 imagine a time three four years from now when it's 1729 01:44:44.359 --> 01:44:47.159 about when waking up early and going to bed within 1730 01:44:47.199 -->

01:44:51.960 three hours of sunset is the protocol which harnesses all 1731 01:44:52.000 --> 01:44:54.800 other protocols. Right, you're going to exercise, You're going to 1732 01:44:54.840 --> 01:44:56.319 do it in that time. You're gonna eat, You're gonna 1733 01:44:56.319 --> 01:44:58.000 do it in that time, You're gonna socialize, You're gonna 1734 01:44:58.000 --> 01:45:00.279 do it in that time, and in doing so also 1735 01:45:00.359 --> 01:45:02.800 avoiding a lot of the issues related to disruptive sleep. 1736 01:45:02.960 --> 01:45:06.199 So that's why all these things, as you said, timeless 1737 01:45:06.199 --> 01:45:09.760 were feating is just one aspect of the Ciccredian health 1738 01:45:09.800 --> 01:45:12.319 and these are all interconnected. And going back to the 1739 01:45:12.399 --> 01:45:17.840 comment about within three hours of sunset, yes, that's good, 1740 01:45:17.880 --> 01:45:22.520 But then what happens in say Toronto or Vancouver in 1741 01:45:22.560 --> 01:45:23.119 winter time. 1742 01:45:23.439 --> 01:45:25.359 I guess they're going to bed very very early, but 1743 01:45:25.439 --> 01:45:27.760 also waking up very very early. You know. One of 1744 01:45:27.800 --> 01:45:29.439 the things that I hear all the time because I'm 1745 01:45:29.439 --> 01:45:32.079 always beating on the drum of getting morning sunlight even 1746 01:45:32.079 --> 01:45:34.479 if through cloud cover, is people say there's no sun 1747 01:45:34.560 --> 01:45:37.239 here this time of year, and I forgive me, but 1748 01:45:37.760 --> 01:45:39.520 there is sun unless you live in a cave. Their 1749 01:45:39.640 --> 01:45:41.720 sun is just coming through cloud cover. And no matter 1750 01:45:41.720 --> 01:45:44.079 where you live in the world, their sun unless you 1751 01:45:44.119 --> 01:45:46.319 live in a cave, of course. So I want to 1752 01:45:46.319 --> 01:45:48.960 make sure that we didn't overlook what was the major 1753 01:45:49.000 --> 01:45:50.880 conclusion of the firefighters to go. 1754 01:45:50.840 --> 01:45:52.760 Back to the firefighters study. So the reason why we 1755 01:45:52.800 --> 01:45:55.159 did this study was, as I said, there are a 1756 01:45:55.239 --> 01:45:57.920 lot of us who are living the lifestyle of firefighters 1757 01:45:58.039 --> 01:46:02.159 or ship workers, and shipt workers are excluded from studies. 1758 01:46:02.479 --> 01:46:05.680 So that means whatever we are learning about lifestyle or 1759 01:46:05.840 --> 01:46:10.960 even medications that may be beneficial for people who actually 1760 01:46:11.000 --> 01:46:14.520 have a normal schedule, but not for people who have 1761 01:46:14.600 --> 01:46:18.800 a disrupted schedule. And if you look up clinicaltrial dot Gov, 1762 01:46:18.840 --> 01:46:22.439 there are more than four hundred thousand studies listed, and 1763 01:46:22.520 --> 01:46:26.199 if you search how many studies are on shift workers, 1764 01:46:26.239 --> 01:46:29.840 it's less than a thousand, And then if you ask, 1765 01:46:29.960 --> 01:46:32.520 most of them are to see what is wrong with 1766 01:46:32.640 --> 01:46:36.319 shift workers. Like that's how we know that shiftwork increases 1767 01:46:36.359 --> 01:46:41.399 our risk for metabolic disease, cancer, and even some aspects 1768 01:46:41.399 --> 01:46:45.840 of dementia. But if you ask how many studies are 1769 01:46:45.880 --> 01:46:49.520 done to improve the health of shift working alone, that's 1770 01:46:49.720 --> 01:46:52.279 less than fifty. Means I have to go back and 1771 01:46:52.359 --> 01:46:55.520 check the actual number, but it's less than fifty. So 1772 01:46:55.560 --> 01:47:00.640 that's why we are super excited. We thought from CICADI 1773 01:47:00.720 --> 01:47:06.760 under them perspective, that's something to address. So this study, again, 1774 01:47:06.800 --> 01:47:10.920 this kind of study is only possible because I'm at 1775 01:47:11.000 --> 01:47:15.560 SULK and we are affiliated with UCSD and I can 1776 01:47:15.640 --> 01:47:19.159 work with UCSD physicians to do this study. So I 1777 01:47:19.479 --> 01:47:22.840 collaborate with doctor Pam Todb who is the director of 1778 01:47:22.960 --> 01:47:29.119 Cardiac Rehab Center in UCSD, and Pam has many firefighters 1779 01:47:29.159 --> 01:47:33.560 as her patients, and we both know that the number 1780 01:47:33.640 --> 01:47:37.119 one cost for death and disability on work for firefighters 1781 01:47:37.479 --> 01:47:40.960 is not fighting fire, but just getting heart attack and stroke. 1782 01:47:42.000 --> 01:47:44.279 So they have a very high incidence of heart attack 1783 01:47:44.359 --> 01:47:47.159 and stroke, and they're also highly prone to different kinds 1784 01:47:47.159 --> 01:47:50.920 of cancer, and it may be difficult to ascribe cancer 1785 01:47:51.039 --> 01:47:54.880 to disruption Cicadian disruption because they're also exposed to a 1786 01:47:54.920 --> 01:47:59.880 lot of toxins. Anytime firebones that smell of fire is 1787 01:48:00.079 --> 01:48:04.880 essentially spyle of carcinogens, and they're breathing. Even if they 1788 01:48:04.920 --> 01:48:09.920 have the hood on and respirator, they still get So 1789 01:48:09.960 --> 01:48:13.680 the idea was very simple. We know that firefighters nearly 1790 01:48:14.600 --> 01:48:18.640 seventy percent of firefighters in the US full time firefighters 1791 01:48:18.680 --> 01:48:22.640 because they are volunteer firefighters and then full time firefighters. 1792 01:48:23.039 --> 01:48:26.039 The full time firefighters seventy percent of them work twenty 1793 01:48:26.079 --> 01:48:30.239 four hours shift. So for example, in San Diego, they 1794 01:48:30.239 --> 01:48:32.600 come in at their shift is from eight am to 1795 01:48:32.680 --> 01:48:36.159 eight am the next day, and they do a trist. 1796 01:48:36.159 --> 01:48:38.760 In San Diego they do one day on, one day off, 1797 01:48:39.039 --> 01:48:42.800 on off, four

cycles and then four days off. And 1798 01:48:43.920 --> 01:48:47.279 but in some fire departments they actually do forty eight 1799 01:48:47.359 --> 01:48:50.920 hours shift. So they come for two days, two days off, 1800 01:48:51.000 --> 01:48:53.319 two days two days off, and then four or. 1801 01:48:53.279 --> 01:48:56.920 Five days off. Thank you firefighters, Yeah, I mean. 1802 01:48:58.960 --> 01:49:02.199 So, then the idea was, so we'll screen firefighters and 1803 01:49:02.239 --> 01:49:07.159 then find firefighters who are metabolically unhealthy, and then we'll 1804 01:49:07.239 --> 01:49:10.920 see whether they can actually follow ten hours time restored 1805 01:49:10.960 --> 01:49:15.159 to eating, because the point is if firefighters can follow it, 1806 01:49:15.199 --> 01:49:18.840 then everybody else will be with all that stress if 1807 01:49:18.840 --> 01:49:21.960 they can. And this is again where I should also 1808 01:49:22.159 --> 01:49:25.439 acknowledge the San Diego Fire and Rescue Department, because without 1809 01:49:25.479 --> 01:49:28.039 their health we could not have even submitted the grant. 1810 01:49:28.720 --> 01:49:32.520 And at that time, David Peconne, who is their health 1811 01:49:32.560 --> 01:49:36.640 and Wellness battalion chief, he's the one who actually approached 1812 01:49:36.720 --> 01:49:43.720 us because he's very careful. He knew that the job 1813 01:49:43.840 --> 01:49:49.039 that they do makes them weaker in long term and 1814 01:49:49.119 --> 01:49:52.199 can kill them in long term, so he was always 1815 01:49:52.279 --> 01:49:55.359 looking for new solutions, so he approached us and then 1816 01:49:55.680 --> 01:49:57.960 we said this is the idea. He said, well, I 1817 01:49:58.000 --> 01:50:01.000 love this idea because we are not asking them to 1818 01:50:01.079 --> 01:50:03.720 sleep more, or we are not going to cut down 1819 01:50:03.720 --> 01:50:07.199 there over time or shaft or change the work schedule. 1820 01:50:07.279 --> 01:50:09.399 The only thing we'll be doing is ask them to 1821 01:50:09.479 --> 01:50:12.640 eat within ten hours and hopefully we can do. 1822 01:50:12.600 --> 01:50:15.439 This so consistently between the days that they're working and 1823 01:50:15.520 --> 01:50:17.960 not working. Yes, so that means if they're from eight 1824 01:50:18.000 --> 01:50:21.199 am to eight am working, then the next then they 1825 01:50:21.239 --> 01:50:23.720 go home. Then they're going to eat on the same 1826 01:50:23.760 --> 01:50:26.159 schedule they did when they were at the fire firehouse, 1827 01:50:26.760 --> 01:50:29.000 but while at home, so they're not allowing themselves to 1828 01:50:29.399 --> 01:50:30.279 deviate from that. 1829 01:50:30.399 --> 01:50:33.279 Yeah, so we thought whether they can do it or not? 1830 01:50:33.359 --> 01:50:36.800 Because the number one goal or the primary outcome in 1831 01:50:36.800 --> 01:50:41.399 this clinical trial was physibility. Can

they do it? And 1832 01:50:41.439 --> 01:50:43.680 then second was if they do it, then what happens 1833 01:50:43.720 --> 01:50:46.159 to the blood sugar and weight and all this other stuff. 1834 01:50:46.880 --> 01:50:48.800 And then we started the study and we hit the 1835 01:50:48.840 --> 01:50:56.399 next hurdle, and that is firefighters are very very tight 1836 01:50:56.479 --> 01:50:59.479 knit community and they want to make sure that you 1837 01:50:59.560 --> 01:51:02.159 understand and their culture. And the best way to understand 1838 01:51:02.199 --> 01:51:05.399 their culture is to live the life of a firefighter. 1839 01:51:06.239 --> 01:51:09.079 So Emili Manoogian, who is the first author c and 1840 01:51:09.119 --> 01:51:11.760 then we had a Dinna Jiduri and who is now 1841 01:51:11.760 --> 01:51:14.880 in med schools. He was a research coordinator at that time. 1842 01:51:15.680 --> 01:51:18.680 They volunteered. They said, okay, we'll go to the busiest 1843 01:51:18.680 --> 01:51:21.920 fire station in San Diego and we'll live the life 1844 01:51:21.920 --> 01:51:25.800 of a firefighter. And the San Diego Fire and Rescue 1845 01:51:25.880 --> 01:51:30.720 and the city they all agreed. They reported for duty 1846 01:51:30.720 --> 01:51:34.239 at seven thirty in the morning, was signed a bed 1847 01:51:34.239 --> 01:51:37.079 in the station, because all fire stations do have some 1848 01:51:37.560 --> 01:51:40.720 beds for firefighters to rest and they have assigned bed 1849 01:51:40.760 --> 01:51:44.439 so they are signed a bed. Yeah, so every time 1850 01:51:44.720 --> 01:51:47.800 a nine one one called came and if that fire station, 1851 01:51:48.000 --> 01:51:50.520 in that fire station, that fire engine was called, then 1852 01:51:51.079 --> 01:51:53.520 just like other firefighters, they had to run, get into 1853 01:51:53.520 --> 01:51:57.399 the gears, just the shoes and a jacket and a 1854 01:51:57.439 --> 01:52:00.680 helmet and get into the seat and attend the call. 1855 01:52:00.760 --> 01:52:02.439 Of course they don't go to the side, they just 1856 01:52:02.560 --> 01:52:05.560 get out of the truck, wait there, then come back. 1857 01:52:07.760 --> 01:52:11.560 So in that twenty four hours, Emily got ten calls 1858 01:52:11.560 --> 01:52:14.920 at night that she had to run, but there are 1859 01:52:15.000 --> 01:52:19.039 more than ten times they got the nine one Every 1860 01:52:19.039 --> 01:52:21.479 time the nine one one call came, then there's a 1861 01:52:21.520 --> 01:52:24.760 bip that goes out all five fighters we are sleeping 1862 01:52:24.880 --> 01:52:27.439 or resting, they get up or if they're doing something, 1863 01:52:27.479 --> 01:52:29.840 they'll look up to see which engine is called. 1864 01:52:30.560 --> 01:52:33.039 And interesting, so it's not just the ones that go out, 1865 01:52:33.119 --> 01:52:34.600 it's everyone gets woken up. 1866 01:52:34.680 --> 01:52:37.119 Everyone gets woken up. So that means in a night, 1867 01:52:37.159 --> 01:52:42.119 typical night, they're waking up ten, fifteen, twenty times sometimes, 1868 01:52:42.279 --> 01:52:45.199 so they're almost like you know, new moms are like 1869 01:52:45.479 --> 01:52:49.640 firefighters because they don't have any idea what time the 1870 01:52:49.680 --> 01:52:52.359 baby will cry and for what reason. Also they don't 1871 01:52:52.399 --> 01:52:56.720 know so similarly, so that's what Emily did. And then 1872 01:52:56.800 --> 01:53:01.920 next morning once he came back, go seem easy. Yeah, 1873 01:53:02.199 --> 01:53:06.640 So then we did this study and we essentially assigned 1874 01:53:07.119 --> 01:53:12.079 all the firefighters. We recruited fifty firefighters. We assigned half 1875 01:53:12.079 --> 01:53:16.199 of them to Mediterranan diet. Because you cannot do any harm, 1876 01:53:16.199 --> 01:53:18.720 you have to give them something good. So that's another thing. 1877 01:53:18.720 --> 01:53:21.039 They said, no, we want something that we know works 1878 01:53:21.079 --> 01:53:23.680 for firefighters. And there was a Mediterranean diet study. So 1879 01:53:25.119 --> 01:53:28.039 everybody was supposed to follow Mediterranean diet and then half 1880 01:53:28.119 --> 01:53:30.920 nearly seventy five of them were supposed to eat within 1881 01:53:31.199 --> 01:53:35.159 ten hours. We did not fix the ten hours because 1882 01:53:35.199 --> 01:53:39.399 we said, you pick your own ten hours that you 1883 01:53:39.439 --> 01:53:40.479 can stick to, but. 1884 01:53:40.399 --> 01:53:42.199 It has to be consistent from day to day. So 1885 01:53:42.239 --> 01:53:44.319 if you start eating at nine am, you finish it 1886 01:53:44.640 --> 01:53:47.680 at you know, at seven pmm and then try to be. 1887 01:53:47.840 --> 01:53:51.319 Yeah, try to try to be consistent, because we said, yes, 1888 01:53:51.359 --> 01:53:53.800 we understand that there will be some things and you 1889 01:53:53.840 --> 01:53:56.760 can take maybe half an hour here and there, and 1890 01:53:56.800 --> 01:54:00.880 we'll see how many times you can do it. And 1891 01:54:00.920 --> 01:54:03.199 what is interesting was, although they were all doing twenty 1892 01:54:03.199 --> 01:54:06.920 four hours shift, the more or less choose to begin 1893 01:54:07.000 --> 01:54:12.319 eating somewhere between eight am and eleven AM, and they 1894 01:54:13.399 --> 01:54:16.079 did not skip any meal. They had their first meal 1895 01:54:16.159 --> 01:54:19.399 or what we call breakfast, but it was several hours 1896 01:54:19.399 --> 01:54:21.760 after waking up, because they're waking up at five or 1897 01:54:21.800 --> 01:54:24.479 six and they're driving to come to work at seven 1898 01:54:24.520 --> 01:54:27.960 thirty or eight, and they're eating their first meal, say 1899 01:54:28.039 --> 01:54:32.439 between eight and eleven and then the finished meal ten 1900 01:54:32.439 --> 01:54:36.359 hours later. And what

we found is more or less 1901 01:54:37.880 --> 01:54:41.760 most of them could stick to doing this at least 1902 01:54:41.800 --> 01:54:46.279 five days out of seven days. And then at the 1903 01:54:46.359 --> 01:54:49.680 end of the study when we look at their health parameters. 1904 01:54:50.159 --> 01:54:53.560 One thing that I said, we recruited everybody who came, 1905 01:54:53.760 --> 01:54:58.039 so that means nearly one in three fire fighters were 1906 01:54:58.039 --> 01:55:03.760 completely healthy. They had no sign any any illness, no 1907 01:55:03.920 --> 01:55:07.760 high blood pressure, hig blood sugar, high cholesterol, depression or anything. 1908 01:55:08.880 --> 01:55:10.960 So since we have one third of the population who 1909 01:55:11.000 --> 01:55:15.079 are already healthy, and then everybody has slightly different conditions. 1910 01:55:15.079 --> 01:55:17.319 Some have high blood pressure, but they don't have high 1911 01:55:17.319 --> 01:55:20.680 blood glucus. Somebody has high blood glucus but not high 1912 01:55:20.680 --> 01:55:25.119 blood presser, so it was kind of heterogeneous, so we 1913 01:55:25.199 --> 01:55:28.039 did not see big difference in weight loss or any 1914 01:55:28.039 --> 01:55:31.159 wet change between these two grooves. Another thing is the 1915 01:55:31.199 --> 01:55:36.119 firefighters actually run almost eight to nine miles when they're 1916 01:55:36.199 --> 01:55:41.119 at the job because that's part of their exercise routine. 1917 01:55:42.199 --> 01:55:46.000 But then one thing that changed significantly and the time 1918 01:55:46.000 --> 01:55:50.439 restor eating groove was what we call real deal particle 1919 01:55:50.760 --> 01:55:54.079 size and particle number, because this is something that we 1920 01:55:54.199 --> 01:55:58.960 know there's very low density lipoprotein. These are athrogenic and 1921 01:55:59.039 --> 01:56:01.720 if we can manage them much better and we reduce 1922 01:56:01.760 --> 01:56:06.119 the risk for athruschlrosis. So that's one parameter that changed 1923 01:56:06.159 --> 01:56:09.439 in the time restory fitting group. Even when you combine 1924 01:56:09.479 --> 01:56:14.920 all healthy and healthy everybody, Now, if we take firefighters 1925 01:56:14.920 --> 01:56:20.159 who are beginning with high blood pressure, then we saw 1926 01:56:20.279 --> 01:56:24.760 significant reduction in their systolic as well as diastolic blood 1927 01:56:24.760 --> 01:56:27.680 pressure and the change in blood pressure. Of course, we 1928 01:56:27.680 --> 01:56:30.359 don't claim that in the manuscript, but when we talk 1929 01:56:30.399 --> 01:56:33.279 about it, some physician would get up and say, wow, 1930 01:56:33.319 --> 01:56:36.600 that looks like almost they're on a blood presser lawyering drug. 1931 01:56:37.640 --> 01:56:40.720 So the extent of blood pressure lowyering is equivalent to 1932 01:56:40.760 --> 01:56:43.039 somebody taking a anti hypertensive drug. 1933 01:56:43.159 --> 01:56:43.600 Amazing. 1934 01:56:43.800 --> 01:56:46.359 Yeah, and then those who started with high blood sugar. 1935 01:56:46.359 --> 01:56:48.720 Of course we didn't have too many type two diabetic, 1936 01:56:48.840 --> 01:56:52.239 but there are a few pre diabetic and they could 1937 01:56:52.319 --> 01:56:56.479 better manage their blood blookers. And this is interesting because 1938 01:56:56.880 --> 01:57:03.640 once shift workers come prediabetic or divetic, they have more 1939 01:57:03.680 --> 01:57:07.680 difficulty managing their blood sugar than non ship workers because 1940 01:57:07.720 --> 01:57:10.720 the work scheduled self will mess them up too much. 1941 01:57:11.199 --> 01:57:14.000 Even if they're on many medication, they have difficulty. 1942 01:57:14.840 --> 01:57:17.720 That's fascinating and I'm really glad that you explained the 1943 01:57:17.760 --> 01:57:20.920 study in such detail because I would have thought, you know, 1944 01:57:20.960 --> 01:57:23.399 from reading the abstract, and I did look at the data. 1945 01:57:23.439 --> 01:57:25.840 But if someone were to look at the abject, they say, oh, firefighters, 1946 01:57:25.880 --> 01:57:27.079 so they're waking up in the middle of the night 1947 01:57:27.079 --> 01:57:29.880 and they're you know, throwing on their gear and going 1948 01:57:29.880 --> 01:57:32.640 out to calls and do it. But I understand correctly, 1949 01:57:33.199 --> 01:57:36.239 all firefighters are being woken up by the signal, which 1950 01:57:36.359 --> 01:57:40.319 makes the firefighter population a bit more similar to the 1951 01:57:40.359 --> 01:57:42.359 more standard population who's waking up in the middle of 1952 01:57:42.359 --> 01:57:45.039 the night to use the bathroom, getting on social media 1953 01:57:45.039 --> 01:57:46.800 for a couple of minutes, or flipping on the lights. 1954 01:57:46.800 --> 01:57:49.439 I mean, it's maybe not as severe as what firefighters 1955 01:57:49.439 --> 01:57:54.039 are doing, but we know there are blood sugar regulation 1956 01:57:54.119 --> 01:57:56.840 issues related to those multiple middle of the night wakings, 1957 01:57:56.960 --> 01:58:00.760 especially if people are then staring at screens. So I 1958 01:58:00.760 --> 01:58:03.199 think it's really important that people were able to hear 1959 01:58:03.239 --> 01:58:06.520 about the deeper contours of the study. I mean, this 1960 01:58:06.680 --> 01:58:10.119 result of regulating blood sugar better is really powerful. I 1961 01:58:10.159 --> 01:58:12.279 get asked all the time. You know, I've got a 1962 01:58:12.319 --> 01:58:14.880 new kid, or I'm a shift worker, how can I 1963 01:58:14.920 --> 01:58:18.560 do this morning sunlight viewing. What I'm hearing is that 1964 01:58:18.760 --> 01:58:21.279 keeping a regular meal schedule every day. 1965 01:58:22.000 --> 01:58:25.359 At least or as close to every day. 1966 01:58:25.359 --> 01:58:26.760 It's sort of like sleep. I

always say, try and 1967 01:58:26.840 --> 01:58:28.960 get a really great night sleep eighty percent or more 1968 01:58:29.000 --> 01:58:30.520 of the nights of your life, and on the other 1969 01:58:30.760 --> 01:58:33.600 twenty percent, hopefully it's for fun reasons, a great party 1970 01:58:33.680 --> 01:58:37.479 or something like that, or a celebration of some sort. 1971 01:58:38.359 --> 01:58:41.920 That seems to me a great anchor point when one 1972 01:58:41.960 --> 01:58:45.920 can't reliably control their sleep wake cycle. Does that mean 1973 01:58:46.239 --> 01:58:49.119 that if somebody is coming off of shift work and 1974 01:58:49.159 --> 01:58:51.960 they're very, very tired, that they would be better off 1975 01:58:52.199 --> 01:58:54.880 staying awake and eating than sleeping. 1976 01:58:55.000 --> 01:58:58.399 Well it's yeah, so this is where we get into nuances. 1977 01:58:58.479 --> 01:59:01.359 So yeah, the firefighters are twenty four hour shift workers, 1978 01:59:01.399 --> 01:59:04.319 so that means and they have been working this shift 1979 01:59:04.359 --> 01:59:06.800 for a very long time, so they have figured out. 1980 01:59:07.279 --> 01:59:11.359 And one thing is yes, firefighters are different from nurses 1981 01:59:11.680 --> 01:59:14.600 and healthcare workers who have to work throughout the night 1982 01:59:15.000 --> 01:59:17.760 and they're staying away throughout the night. Foras firefighters, they 1983 01:59:17.760 --> 01:59:22.800 get opportunity to sleep. Then even with their ten calls, 1984 01:59:23.239 --> 01:59:26.680 they actually have opportunity to come back and go to sleep. 1985 01:59:26.720 --> 01:59:29.960 And in fact, when Emily and a Dinna they were 1986 01:59:30.000 --> 01:59:32.800 in the fire stess and what they observe was firefighters 1987 01:59:33.039 --> 01:59:36.199 they after attending a call, they're not coming back and 1988 01:59:36.239 --> 01:59:39.279 playing cards or trying to watch the news or get 1989 01:59:39.319 --> 01:59:43.640 this covered. They know they will just go back and 1990 01:59:43.920 --> 01:59:46.239 lie in the bed and switch up the light. So 1991 01:59:46.399 --> 01:59:49.199 whenever they got any opportunity to sleep, they will try 1992 01:59:49.279 --> 01:59:53.760 to sleep. So in that way, their sleep date and 1993 01:59:53.880 --> 01:59:57.800 sleep pressure during daytime is not as strong as a 1994 01:59:58.079 --> 02:00:02.680 night shift nurse or a truck driver who is driving 1995 02:00:02.680 --> 02:00:05.760 all night because they have their staying away throughout the night. 1996 02:00:06.399 --> 02:00:09.359 So when people say, yes, you found this and can 1997 02:00:09.399 --> 02:00:12.279 you extend it to other shift workers. My answer is no, 1998 02:00:12.439 --> 02:00:15.359 we have to go back and figure out. That's why 1999 02:00:15.399 --> 02:00:17.880 we went to the station and figured out what would 2000 02:00:17.920 --> 02:00:20.960 work for them. If I have to go and do 2001 02:00:21.039 --> 02:00:24.920 this for some nurses, maybe even I will go or 2002 02:00:24.960 --> 02:00:27.000 our staff will go and figure out. What is the 2003 02:00:27.119 --> 02:00:30.079 work schedule, what happens. Do they have opportunity to eat, 2004 02:00:30.560 --> 02:00:33.600 do they have opportunity to even take five minutes break? 2005 02:00:34.079 --> 02:00:36.439 What do they do during break? And all of these 2006 02:00:36.479 --> 02:00:40.760 things come into play. But here another thing is I 2007 02:00:40.800 --> 02:00:43.279 always said that in other time restift feeding paper we 2008 02:00:43.319 --> 02:00:47.000 see change in nutrition quality and quantity, But here we 2009 02:00:47.199 --> 02:00:53.800 also saw that somehow both groups inadvertently they improve the 2010 02:00:53.880 --> 02:00:58.520 nutrition quality because everybody was told to eat Mediterranean diet. 2011 02:00:58.560 --> 02:01:02.560 They increase the fruits and based and olive oil intakes slightly. 2012 02:01:03.720 --> 02:01:09.880 And when they had to stop eating early, they also 2013 02:01:10.079 --> 02:01:14.199 reduced their alcohol intach. And this is very significant because 2014 02:01:15.039 --> 02:01:17.880 many shift workers, just to cope with the shift work, 2015 02:01:17.920 --> 02:01:22.079 that tend to depend on alcohol at night and caffeine 2016 02:01:22.119 --> 02:01:26.239 in the morning, So they begin their day with caffeine 2017 02:01:26.239 --> 02:01:30.880 and and with alcohol. And now we can relate that 2018 02:01:30.920 --> 02:01:35.119 many normal people who are not doing shiftwork, we also 2019 02:01:35.159 --> 02:01:38.199 more or less begin our day with caffeine and many 2020 02:01:38.239 --> 02:01:41.239 of us and with alcohol. And then when they reduce 2021 02:01:41.319 --> 02:01:43.520 that eating to ten hours, and then we saw a 2022 02:01:43.560 --> 02:01:48.720 significant reduction in alcohol INTECH in the time ressore eating group, 2023 02:01:48.840 --> 02:01:52.119 but not in the standard of care or Mediterranean diet group. 2024 02:01:52.399 --> 02:01:54.720 I certainly support that we did an episode on alcohol, 2025 02:01:54.720 --> 02:01:57.960 and I was shocked when I researched that to learn 2026 02:01:58.039 --> 02:02:01.880 that zero to two drinks per week is essentially the 2027 02:02:01.960 --> 02:02:07.239 threshold beyond which you start seeing health deficits, in particular 2028 02:02:07.359 --> 02:02:12.079 cancers and metabolic disruption, sleep disruption, and increased anxiety when 2029 02:02:12.079 --> 02:02:14.479 people aren't under the influence of alcohol. I mean, it's 2030 02:02:14.520 --> 02:02:17.720 pretty incredible how alcohol has kind of escaped as the 2031 02:02:18.520 --> 02:02:23.159 opposite of caffeine and therefore not a health hazard. And 2032 02:02:23.479 --> 02:02:25.159 here I'm somebody. I have a drink every once in 2033 02:02:25.199 -->

02:02:27.079 a while, no big deal for me. I can have 2034 02:02:27.159 --> 02:02:31.479 it or not have it. But it's just striking how alcohol, 2035 02:02:31.720 --> 02:02:34.760 despite extensive data that it can really disrupt health, even 2036 02:02:35.000 --> 02:02:39.119 at three drinks per week, is just avidly consumed as 2037 02:02:39.119 --> 02:02:41.359 if it was kind of like food or caffeine. It's 2038 02:02:41.520 --> 02:02:44.680 really incredible. I want to make sure that I circle 2039 02:02:44.720 --> 02:02:46.520 back to something you mentioned earlier, because I know there 2040 02:02:46.520 --> 02:02:47.920 are going to be a number of people that asked this. 2041 02:02:48.439 --> 02:02:52.640 If I recall you said that provided that the feeding 2042 02:02:52.680 --> 02:02:57.479 window is not shorter than eight hours, that men, women 2043 02:02:57.520 --> 02:03:00.920 and children can use time restricted feeding. 2044 02:03:01.760 --> 02:03:04.159 Well, when I say yeah, so what I say is 2045 02:03:05.720 --> 02:03:06.359 twelve hours. 2046 02:03:06.800 --> 02:03:07.920 Excuse me twelve hours. 2047 02:03:08.000 --> 02:03:10.399 Thank you for that clar because we did a study 2048 02:03:10.439 --> 02:03:15.359 that was published in twenty fifteen, and again behind many 2049 02:03:15.399 --> 02:03:18.920 of our studies there is a story. So we're publishing 2050 02:03:18.960 --> 02:03:20.880 all these mouse stories, and then I would go to 2051 02:03:21.119 --> 02:03:26.600 conferences and of course the some some people would give 2052 02:03:26.600 --> 02:03:28.760 me a look saying, well, you must be doing something wrong. 2053 02:03:31.279 --> 02:03:35.000 This just breaks the XCELA thermodynamics because how come they're 2054 02:03:35.000 --> 02:03:37.239 eating the same number of calories and not getting wet. 2055 02:03:37.720 --> 02:03:40.520 Of course, by that time, we figured out that at 2056 02:03:40.560 --> 02:03:45.800 listed mouse time, restory feeding also changes. They got microbiome 2057 02:03:46.079 --> 02:03:49.600 in a way that the mice may be pooping out 2058 02:03:49.680 --> 02:03:54.039 a little bit more fat and sugar than absorbing them. 2059 02:03:54.079 --> 02:03:56.600 So one thing that happens in time restive feting, at 2060 02:03:56.680 --> 02:04:02.319 least in mice, is the liver cholesterol metabolism to biless 2061 02:04:02.359 --> 02:04:07.680 it and biless its excretion in the gut changes because 2062 02:04:07.760 --> 02:04:12.239 they got microbiome changes. So this is very nice study 2063 02:04:12.720 --> 02:04:15.560 when a major IMpower was in the lab. Now he 2064 02:04:15.600 --> 02:04:19.760 has his own lab in UCSD, and he meticulously did 2065 02:04:19.760 --> 02:04:23.399 that and we we even did bomb calorimetry from the 2066 02:04:23.479 --> 02:04:27.199 poop and metabolomics from the poop and then we figured 2067 02:04:27.239 --> 02:04:32.000 out that they excrete some some calories and then that 2068 02:04:32.159 --> 02:04:35.520 brown fad activity goes up, so they may be burning 2069 02:04:35.600 --> 02:04:41.119 some of these extra calories thermogenic. But anyway, so you know, 2070 02:04:41.239 --> 02:04:46.159 one nice thing, awesome thing about SULK is if they 2071 02:04:46.239 --> 02:04:48.640 see that your science is going well, then they will 2072 02:04:48.680 --> 02:04:52.319 find ways to help you. And this is yeah, and 2073 02:04:53.039 --> 02:04:56.560 this is when Bill Brody was our president. He was 2074 02:04:56.600 --> 02:05:00.600 the president of Hopkins for twelve yes and none who 2075 02:05:00.600 --> 02:05:05.039 has the president And that time he had started this, 2076 02:05:05.279 --> 02:05:08.039 you know, with some grant program which was funded by 2077 02:05:08.399 --> 02:05:12.359 Orwyn Jacob Rown is the founder of Qualcomm and it 2078 02:05:12.439 --> 02:05:15.840 was also a faculty at the UCSD. So he understands 2079 02:05:15.840 --> 02:05:19.239 there are very few tech leaders who actually spend some 2080 02:05:19.319 --> 02:05:23.880 time in academia. So he understood the pain of getting 2081 02:05:24.279 --> 02:05:27.159 grant money. When you have some interesting idea, I'll test 2082 02:05:27.199 --> 02:05:27.680 some ideas. 2083 02:05:27.760 --> 02:05:30.000 So yeah, no knock on the nih, but I'll do 2084 02:05:30.039 --> 02:05:33.079 it anyway because I sit on study section for the NIH. 2085 02:05:33.239 --> 02:05:35.720 I mean NIH wants to see proposals for things that 2086 02:05:35.760 --> 02:05:39.760 are so certain to work that they're mostly done, and 2087 02:05:39.840 --> 02:05:43.560 so really groundbreaking work can happen and does happen with 2088 02:05:43.680 --> 02:05:47.039 NIH funding, But more often than not, it is the 2089 02:05:47.800 --> 02:05:50.960 generosity of philanthropists like Irwin Jacobs and other people that 2090 02:05:51.439 --> 02:05:55.560 allow the really pioneering, the new stuff, the cool stuff, yeah, 2091 02:05:55.800 --> 02:05:58.600 the groundbreaking stuff, the stuff that really, no, I'm not 2092 02:05:58.600 --> 02:06:00.920 gonna say really matters. It all matter, It's all important. 2093 02:06:01.079 --> 02:06:05.319 It matters. But you know, it's high risk. And NIH 2094 02:06:05.479 --> 02:06:08.439 MEANSNIH is not just government is not making money from 2095 02:06:08.439 --> 02:06:11.520 thin air. Whence it's taxpayers money. So there is a 2096 02:06:11.520 --> 02:06:14.640 little bit responsibility or conservative that okay, so we should 2097 02:06:14.640 --> 02:06:17.479 not waste tracks us money and find the sky kind 2098 02:06:17.479 --> 02:06:18.359 of project too much. 2099 02:06:18.399 --> 02:06:21.079 Clear, We're not talking about politically conservative, we're talking about 2100 02:06:21.600 --> 02:06:25.520 scientifically conservative. It would be so careful with language nowadays. 2101 02:06:25.560 --> 02:06:27.119 Pretty soon we're just going to

sit and stare at 2102 02:06:27.119 --> 02:06:31.239 one another at the microphones to stay safe. So that's interesting. 2103 02:06:31.319 --> 02:06:33.640 So the so that's the way it started this And 2104 02:06:33.680 --> 02:06:37.119 then what we did was we I had an awesome 2105 02:06:37.319 --> 02:06:40.680 guard student and we got this funding from our win 2106 02:06:40.840 --> 02:06:44.920 and also there are some any philanthropic matter. So actually 2107 02:06:45.039 --> 02:06:47.600 the way we say is, yes, if you give me 2108 02:06:47.680 --> 02:06:50.800 fifty bucks, then that fifty bucks towards goes towards buying 2109 02:06:50.840 --> 02:06:53.920 the gloves and a friend of tubes for one post 2110 02:06:53.920 --> 02:06:55.359 dog for maybe seven days. 2111 02:06:55.439 --> 02:06:58.760 So true. I think a lot of people don't realize 2112 02:06:58.800 --> 02:07:02.760 that ninety nine percent of laboratory scientists just they don't 2113 02:07:02.760 --> 02:07:05.039 make any money off their discoveries. And even if there 2114 02:07:05.159 --> 02:07:08.840 is a patentable discovery, typically the divide between the institution 2115 02:07:09.039 --> 02:07:11.439 and the company that will actually put that to market 2116 02:07:11.520 --> 02:07:15.319 is so slim in favor of the others involved that 2117 02:07:15.479 --> 02:07:18.600 your scientists really do this as work of passion or 2118 02:07:18.680 --> 02:07:19.159 laboral of. 2119 02:07:19.399 --> 02:07:23.399 So we came up with this app, my Secredian Clock 2120 02:07:23.439 --> 02:07:28.680 at that time, and we took some lessons from tech leaders, 2121 02:07:29.119 --> 02:07:35.239 particularly from Amazon one click checkout, because we thought most 2122 02:07:35.600 --> 02:07:40.439 nutrition apps actually ask people to detailed describer. They aid, 2123 02:07:40.479 --> 02:07:43.159 go to do their food library and then port some size. 2124 02:07:43.199 --> 02:07:45.359 You said, okay, so we'll just shortcut all of that. 2125 02:07:45.640 --> 02:07:48.079 I just asked people to take a picture of the food. 2126 02:07:48.640 --> 02:07:52.159 Open the app, one click, take a picture, second click, 2127 02:07:52.560 --> 02:07:54.840 and press, sat, third, click, and when they said the 2128 02:07:54.880 --> 02:07:57.119 picture actually came to our server, did not stay on 2129 02:07:57.159 --> 02:08:01.039 their phone. And we asked one hundred and fifty six 2130 02:08:01.159 --> 02:08:04.399 people who are not shipped workers, just regular worker or 2131 02:08:04.399 --> 02:08:08.439 homemakers to be part of the study. No student was 2132 02:08:08.479 --> 02:08:10.359 allowed to be part of the study because we know 2133 02:08:10.399 --> 02:08:14.680 that there's lifestyle is like shift workers, and we monitor 2134 02:08:14.760 --> 02:08:19.960 for three weeks and so here's some nuanceys and I 2135 02:08:20.039 --> 02:08:24.439 want people to understand. So I suppose say when somebody 2136

02:08:24.520 --> 02:08:30.279 is starting to eat at say seven am, and since 2137 02:08:30.279 --> 02:08:34.680 they're recording everything, we got every single thing, even if 2138 02:08:34.680 --> 02:08:36.880 they ate half a cookie, they had to take a picture, 2139 02:08:36.960 --> 02:08:39.720 and they actually took a picture, because it's not It 2140 02:08:39.800 --> 02:08:42.159 became second natural after three or four days that every 2141 02:08:42.159 --> 02:08:44.800 time they ate something, even if there's a glass of water, 2142 02:08:44.840 --> 02:08:47.000 they actually took a picture. Because we ask them take 2143 02:08:47.000 --> 02:08:49.319 a picture of everything. We'll figure out what it is. 2144 02:08:50.880 --> 02:08:55.640 What is surprising was we found the median So the 2145 02:08:55.680 --> 02:08:59.680 median number of times people eat within a day twenty 2146 02:08:59.680 --> 02:09:04.239 four hour day is actually seven So it's not it's 2147 02:09:04.239 --> 02:09:06.600 not that we're eating three times a day. We actually 2148 02:09:06.920 --> 02:09:09.920 snacked a little bit and seven times seven times, and 2149 02:09:09.920 --> 02:09:13.680 there are ten percent of people. The top decile was 2150 02:09:13.720 --> 02:09:19.600 eating twelve times a day, and it makes sense in 2151 02:09:19.720 --> 02:09:22.600 retrospect sometimes maybe I'll fall into that seven or eight 2152 02:09:22.920 --> 02:09:26.880 before I did this study, because you know, getting off 2153 02:09:27.000 --> 02:09:30.520 having coffee with clem and sugar is one, and then 2154 02:09:30.640 --> 02:09:33.399 I ate my breakfast. That's two. Then I came to 2155 02:09:33.439 --> 02:09:37.119 the love and I found that cookie. That's three. I 2156 02:09:37.199 --> 02:09:39.159 went to a meeting and there was some cookie and 2157 02:09:39.479 --> 02:09:43.640 something else. That's another one. Then lunch, and then afternoon 2158 02:09:43.720 --> 02:09:46.000 somebody asked me to go out and have a meeting. 2159 02:09:46.119 --> 02:09:49.279 And so if you think about it, it's very normal 2160 02:09:49.279 --> 02:09:51.880 that we can go seven to eight times ten times. 2161 02:09:53.399 --> 02:09:56.319 But then if we look at what times, say I 2162 02:09:56.439 --> 02:09:59.680 start breakfast, and as I said, we see that in 2163 02:09:59.720 --> 02:10:02.279 many people they'll start at seven o'clock one day, then 2164 02:10:02.319 --> 02:10:05.600 seven thirty another day, than eight fifteen another day, or 2165 02:10:05.760 --> 02:10:07.560 they go back to six am because they had to 2166 02:10:07.800 --> 02:10:10.479 get up early and go to work. So we took 2167 02:10:10.640 --> 02:10:13.479 all these food data from three weeks and then ask 2168 02:10:14.479 --> 02:10:18.359 what is the time when your body system is expecting 2169 02:10:18.399 --> 02:10:20.399 it to eat, because it's kind of averages so out 2170 02:10:20.439 --> 02:10:23.439 it's kind of thinking, okay, maybe for you, if you're 2171 02:10:24.000 --> 02:10:27.279 eating breakfast at say somewhere between six am seven thirty 2172 02:10:27.279 --> 02:10:31.039 seven forty five eight it maybe you're expecting food around 2173 02:10:31.039 --> 02:10:34.119 seven o'clock. Let's forget about six fifteen. There's an outlier. 2174 02:10:34.399 --> 02:10:37.199 And then similarly, at the end of the day, somebody 2175 02:10:37.239 --> 02:10:40.760 is eating, finishing the last bite or the nightcap, whatever 2176 02:10:40.800 --> 02:10:43.920 you call it, say one day at nine pm, nine 2177 02:10:43.920 --> 02:10:48.439 thirty pm, ten eleven, twelve thirty or one. Let's ignore 2178 02:10:48.439 --> 02:10:51.840 that one and twelve thirty, but still we got somewhere 2179 02:10:51.880 --> 02:10:55.800 between seven to eleven thirty for that person over three 2180 02:10:55.840 --> 02:10:58.880 weeks time. So this is how we kind of figure 2181 02:10:58.920 --> 02:11:01.600 out what is the life clihood that your body will 2182 02:11:01.720 --> 02:11:05.840 encounter food. So when we do that, what we found 2183 02:11:06.000 --> 02:11:08.600 was nearly fifty percent of our dogs in our study 2184 02:11:09.439 --> 02:11:12.600 eight for fourteen hours forty five minutes, that window when 2185 02:11:12.680 --> 02:11:16.720 your body is expecting food. So it's easy to say 2186 02:11:16.760 --> 02:11:21.399 that fifty percent of our dogs eating within fifteen hours 2187 02:11:21.399 --> 02:11:22.319 so longer. 2188 02:11:22.680 --> 02:11:25.600 Wow, and quite frequently throughout. 2189 02:11:25.319 --> 02:11:29.479 Quite frequently too. And then if we ask what fraction 2190 02:11:29.560 --> 02:11:34.199 of our dogs were actually eating the conventional within twelve hours, 2191 02:11:34.199 --> 02:11:36.479 three meals a day or something like that, it was 2192 02:11:36.520 --> 02:11:37.079 ten percent. 2193 02:11:38.000 --> 02:11:41.600 So these snacking has gone up dramatically. However, you wanted 2194 02:11:41.640 --> 02:11:44.439 to find snacking, the frequency of food intake the. 2195 02:11:44.479 --> 02:11:48.119 Day and outside the breakfast, lunch, and dinner, there are 2196 02:11:48.159 --> 02:11:50.720 all these small snacks here and there. And also for 2197 02:11:50.760 --> 02:11:53.680 a lot of people, the dinner is delayed. And we 2198 02:11:53.720 --> 02:11:55.399 went back and looked at okay, so what kind of 2199 02:11:55.439 --> 02:11:58.479 food people are eating late at night and all that stuff. 2200 02:11:59.199 --> 02:12:03.239 And what came interesting, which is very counterintuitive, is people 2201 02:12:03.319 --> 02:12:07.159 who prepare their own dinner, they're more likely to eat 2202 02:12:07.319 --> 02:12:10.479 later at night because they're coming home and then they're 2203 02:12:10.520 --> 02:12:14.600 taking some time to prepare dinner and then they're sitting 2204 02:12:14.640 --> 02:12:17.159 down and eating, or maybe

they're eating next to the computer, 2205 02:12:17.279 --> 02:12:20.560 whatever it is. So that's kind of interesting that came out. 2206 02:12:21.560 --> 02:12:24.279 But coming back to your point, that's why I say 2207 02:12:24.359 --> 02:12:29.319 that nearly ninety percent of adults are eating for more 2208 02:12:29.359 --> 02:12:33.319 than twelve hours. So that means a lot of people 2209 02:12:33.399 --> 02:12:37.600 can there is scope or there is enough headspace to 2210 02:12:37.720 --> 02:12:42.640 reduce and eat within So, as I said, all of 2211 02:12:42.680 --> 02:12:46.840 these are interrelated. So when you think about children, most 2212 02:12:46.920 --> 02:12:51.439 sleep researchers agree that children and teenagers should sleep somewhere 2213 02:12:51.479 --> 02:12:54.800 between nine to ten or eleven hours because young children 2214 02:12:55.239 --> 02:12:57.800 even five to ten years old, they should sleep nine 2215 02:12:57.840 --> 02:12:58.840 to ten hours. 2216 02:12:58.880 --> 02:13:01.000 Just pumping out growth, orm and growing, growing. 2217 02:13:01.640 --> 02:13:05.720 And then the teenagers, actually the recommendation is they should 2218 02:13:05.800 --> 02:13:10.640 be sleeping nine hours because if you take teenagers, take 2219 02:13:10.680 --> 02:13:14.479 out all the stimulatory inputs to them, and then remove homework, 2220 02:13:14.520 --> 02:13:18.239 assignment and everything, and then let them kind of equilibriate 2221 02:13:18.239 --> 02:13:21.680 to their homeostasis, what they're likely how many hours they're 2222 02:13:21.800 --> 02:13:25.159 likely to sleep. That turns out to be somewhere between 2223 02:13:25.199 --> 02:13:27.199 eight and a half to nine and a half hours, 2224 02:13:29.039 --> 02:13:34.039 which also means that going back to sleep, nearly ninety 2225 02:13:34.079 --> 02:13:39.239 percent of high school students in this country are chronically 2226 02:13:39.279 --> 02:13:42.880 sleep deprived because most high school students don't get nine 2227 02:13:42.920 --> 02:13:45.039 hours of sleep on a regular basis, maybe in the. 2228 02:13:44.960 --> 02:13:47.720 Weekend, probably because of devices. 2229 02:13:47.840 --> 02:13:51.439 Yeah, and also, as I said, this new idea that 2230 02:13:51.560 --> 02:13:55.880 midnight is your assignment some mission time. I'll come back 2231 02:13:55.920 --> 02:13:56.760 to that again and again. 2232 02:13:57.000 --> 02:13:59.600 I'm hearing that again against the teachers, take note. It's 2233 02:13:59.600 --> 02:14:02.159 an interesting it's a very interesting idea as a way 2234 02:14:02.239 --> 02:14:05.039 to kind of anchor behavior earlier in the day. Yeah, 2235 02:14:05.119 --> 02:14:09.840 learning to I mean, public health is complicated because people 2236 02:14:10.119 --> 02:14:12.720 are incentivized by fear. But they you know, you get 2237 02:14:12.720 --> 02:14:14.479 more bees with honey, as they say, right, you know, 2238 02:14:14.560 -->

02:14:20.239 there's incentivizing people to wake earlier, not necessarily with the sunrise, 2239 02:14:20.279 --> 02:14:23.600 but wake earlier and go to sleep earlier, and eat 2240 02:14:23.720 --> 02:14:28.960 within an eight to twelve hour window twelve if it's yeah, 2241 02:14:29.000 --> 02:14:31.319 so that's how children. Yeah, it sounds to me like, 2242 02:14:31.640 --> 02:14:33.720 you know, all these health benefits are what I think 2243 02:14:33.760 --> 02:14:36.399 are going to incentivize people more than for instance, this 2244 02:14:36.520 --> 02:14:38.399 idea that well, if you don't do this, you're going 2245 02:14:38.479 --> 02:14:39.880 to get dementia or something like that. 2246 02:14:40.399 --> 02:14:43.279 Right, but like every day people will feel more healthy 2247 02:14:43.319 --> 02:14:46.479 and more productive. And so that's why I said that 2248 02:14:46.520 --> 02:14:48.920 even if children are supposed to sleep for nine hours, 2249 02:14:48.960 --> 02:14:52.439 of course they're not eating during those nine hours. And 2250 02:14:52.520 --> 02:14:55.319 we're not feeding children and putting them down to sleep 2251 02:14:55.359 --> 02:14:57.560 because you know, their core body temperature will be high. 2252 02:14:57.560 --> 02:15:00.439 They cannot fall asleep. So at least there's a have 2253 02:15:00.520 --> 02:15:03.039 the last meal one or two hours before going to bed, 2254 02:15:03.079 --> 02:15:08.319 because typically parents feed them and maybe give them a 2255 02:15:08.359 --> 02:15:11.439 shower or a butt and then they read the bedtime story. 2256 02:15:11.520 --> 02:15:16.239 So it's one to two hours before bedtime they're finishing food. Similarly, 2257 02:15:16.239 --> 02:15:18.720 on the other end, after they wake up, it's not 2258 02:15:18.800 --> 02:15:22.600 that we're waking them up and then feeding them. Hopefully 2259 02:15:22.680 --> 02:15:25.920 we're not doing that, so that's at twelve hours seems 2260 02:15:25.920 --> 02:15:29.840 to be optimum. And it's not only I'm saying that. 2261 02:15:29.920 --> 02:15:34.119 If we put all the health recommendations together from pediatrics 2262 02:15:34.239 --> 02:15:35.800 and then it makes sense. 2263 02:15:37.479 --> 02:15:41.119 Fascinating. I have a question about structuring meal intake or 2264 02:15:41.119 --> 02:15:45.479 food intake during the eating window. I have a good friend, 2265 02:15:45.680 --> 02:15:49.640 actually he's the neurosurgeon at Neuralink now, but he came 2266 02:15:49.720 --> 02:15:54.000 up through Stanford and he has a habit of eating, 2267 02:15:54.239 --> 02:15:57.239 of skipping one meal per day within a feeding window. 2268 02:15:57.399 --> 02:15:59.640 So it might be breakfast, lunch, skip dinner one day, 2269 02:16:00.039 --> 02:16:03.880 then it might be breakfast, dinner the next day, lunch 2270 02:16:03.960 --> 02:16:06.319 and dinner the next one. So it's not in keeping 2271 02:16:06.319 --> 02:16:09.279 with the

same start time always, but the end time 2272 02:16:09.359 --> 02:16:12.439 is either going to be earlier or there's a gait. 2273 02:16:12.560 --> 02:16:16.199 It's never later. Yeah, it's never later. What do you 2274 02:16:16.199 --> 02:16:19.359 think about that as a strategy. You know, in many 2275 02:16:19.359 --> 02:16:22.680 ways it feels like that fits with the way that 2276 02:16:22.720 --> 02:16:25.600 a lot of people's lives run. So sometimes, for instance, 2277 02:16:25.640 --> 02:16:27.079 if I'm in a podcast, I don't tend to eat 2278 02:16:27.159 --> 02:16:28.399 much during the middle of the day because it makes 2279 02:16:28.399 --> 02:16:31.920 me a little bit groggy, the post perennial dip and energy. 2280 02:16:32.000 --> 02:16:34.920 So I'll do breakfast well, but again at eleven and 2281 02:16:34.920 --> 02:16:36.920 that's a first That's when I break my fast eleven 2282 02:16:37.000 --> 02:16:40.000 ish and then dinner, maybe a snack in the middle 2283 02:16:40.000 --> 02:16:42.000 of the day. But other days it's three meals other 2284 02:16:42.159 --> 02:16:47.200 So does it matter overall, as long as one isn't 2285 02:16:47.639 --> 02:16:50.760 allowing the start time and the ending time to drift out, 2286 02:16:50.920 --> 02:16:53.479 is it okay? If you go from twelve hours to 2287 02:16:53.559 --> 02:16:57.239 ten to eight, eight, ten, four twelve, As long as 2288 02:16:57.280 --> 02:17:00.799 you don't exceed that the brackets, are you okay? 2289 02:17:01.639 --> 02:17:03.959 So this is where the Cicadian aspect come in because 2290 02:17:04.079 --> 02:17:08.159 if you're going, if you're moving that breakfast time or 2291 02:17:08.200 --> 02:17:13.520 dinner time three four hours, essentially causing maybe a metabolic 2292 02:17:13.639 --> 02:17:17.360 jet lag. You know, in short term, in weeks, months, 2293 02:17:17.440 --> 02:17:20.680 or maybe even a few years, you may not see 2294 02:17:20.719 --> 02:17:24.399 any change. But at the same time we don't know 2295 02:17:24.440 --> 02:17:26.879 what is the long term consequences. One thing is we 2296 02:17:26.920 --> 02:17:30.440 always think, I'll come back to this point again and again. 2297 02:17:30.479 --> 02:17:32.520 We think that a body where it is the marker 2298 02:17:32.559 --> 02:17:35.760 of health, our body composition is a marker of health. 2299 02:17:35.879 --> 02:17:41.399 It's not always true because as I said, drifts, feeling, 2300 02:17:42.399 --> 02:17:47.600 you know, having some pang of depression or anxiety. 2301 02:17:46.840 --> 02:17:50.840 High people have, or low body fab you are very 2302 02:17:50.920 --> 02:17:51.479 high il deal. 2303 02:17:51.680 --> 02:17:55.159 Yeah, So those are the things that we don't connect 2304 02:17:55.559 --> 02:17:59.239 with our habit and since Cicadian under them and meal 2305 02:17:59.319 --> 02:18:05.520 timing meals structure now is a very new field. I 2306 02:18:05.520 --> 02:18:08.000 think good studies

will come out only in a few years, 2307 02:18:08.000 --> 02:18:10.680 because right now people are just going back and retrospectively 2308 02:18:10.680 --> 02:18:13.440 looking at some diet record, one day of diet record 2309 02:18:13.440 --> 02:18:16.520 and trying to glean too much out of it. But 2310 02:18:16.600 --> 02:18:19.920 I think hopefully things will improve where people will become 2311 02:18:20.120 --> 02:18:22.680 it will become standard to at least look for one 2312 02:18:22.879 --> 02:18:26.959 week of diet record mid time and what they're eating 2313 02:18:27.200 --> 02:18:30.840 all that stuff, because there are now mouse studies also 2314 02:18:30.920 --> 02:18:36.040 showing whether front loading carbohydrate or front loading fat or 2315 02:18:36.280 --> 02:18:40.719 protein has benefit over so I think these studies are starting, 2316 02:18:40.760 --> 02:18:44.520 so I should not comment whether that's good or bad. 2317 02:18:44.959 --> 02:18:46.719 I think it's great to hold off until then we 2318 02:18:46.760 --> 02:18:50.079 have you back on to discuss. I have a question 2319 02:18:50.120 --> 02:18:54.680 about fasting on the longer term, and there is a 2320 02:18:54.719 --> 02:18:57.479 near infinite space we could explore two days of faster 2321 02:18:57.600 --> 02:19:00.440 one day. I know people that everyone's in a while, 2322 02:19:00.479 --> 02:19:04.159 they just decide I'm fasting. They've either been eating too 2323 02:19:04.239 --> 02:19:07.040 much at parties, or they're not feeling well or whatever. 2324 02:19:07.120 --> 02:19:09.959 They just decide I'm fasting for twenty four hours, and 2325 02:19:10.000 --> 02:19:13.440 they'll still consume water and caffeine, but they'll just fast. 2326 02:19:13.479 --> 02:19:17.200 Is there any health benefit or detriment? You mentioned the 2327 02:19:17.200 --> 02:19:20.239 circadian clock shifting effects, But if somebody wakes up on 2328 02:19:20.319 --> 02:19:23.520 Sunday and they you know, they eat too much, or 2329 02:19:23.559 --> 02:19:25.120 they feel they eat too much, or they don't like 2330 02:19:25.120 --> 02:19:26.879 the food they eat on Saturday, they're not really feeling 2331 02:19:26.920 --> 02:19:29.680 it and they're just going to fast into Monday, is 2332 02:19:29.719 --> 02:19:34.600 there any known benefit or health detriment to doing that 2333 02:19:34.680 --> 02:19:35.200 kind of thing. 2334 02:19:35.319 --> 02:19:39.639 Yeah, there's actually a rich literature on this complete fast 2335 02:19:40.760 --> 02:19:45.040 and impact. In many religion, people practiced complete fast as 2336 02:19:45.040 --> 02:19:50.319 you were, to cleanse their body, and people have seen 2337 02:19:50.399 --> 02:19:53.200 that there are benefits to that. So in fact, every 2338 02:19:53.200 --> 02:19:57.799 other day eating in mouse model or even in humans 2339 02:19:57.799 --> 02:20:01.319 that are also initially some stories were done, there are 2340 02:20:01.319

--> 02:20:05.799 many health benefits. And right now they are even fasting 2341 02:20:05.799 --> 02:20:10.280 clinics in Germany where people check in and they're under 2342 02:20:10.799 --> 02:20:15.399 strict supervision and then they do complete fast or maybe 2343 02:20:16.079 --> 02:20:18.399 a small bowl of soup which has one hundred two 2344 02:20:18.440 --> 02:20:23.840 hundred colocal and that's all they get to eat. Sometimes two, 2345 02:20:23.840 --> 02:20:25.879 three days, four days, five days, even they have gone 2346 02:20:25.920 --> 02:20:27.840 off to three or four weeks. 2347 02:20:27.799 --> 02:20:28.959 For sake of weight losses. 2348 02:20:28.959 --> 02:20:33.000 That why, for many different things, and they come out 2349 02:20:33.040 --> 02:20:37.120 pretty well healthy. Of course they're under supervision, make sure 2350 02:20:37.159 --> 02:20:43.959 that they're getting macro micronutrients, sorry, the micronutrients, vitamins and electrolytes. 2351 02:20:45.159 --> 02:20:48.680 So those studies are pretty solid. People have observed that. 2352 02:20:48.879 --> 02:20:52.000 And then in fact there are even idea that fasting, 2353 02:20:52.200 --> 02:20:55.399 this kind of fasting can have huge impact on brain 2354 02:20:55.840 --> 02:21:00.239 and people may come out of treatment resistant depression or something. 2355 02:21:00.319 --> 02:21:03.520 But you know, so those studies are very difficult to do. 2356 02:21:03.760 --> 02:21:06.360 The only case of one here and there that we 2357 02:21:06.479 --> 02:21:10.559 hear once in a while. But hopefully in future we'll 2358 02:21:10.600 --> 02:21:16.559 see whether the depression, anxiety, the mental health aspect will 2359 02:21:16.600 --> 02:21:19.680 benefit from fasting, because now as there is more and 2360 02:21:19.760 --> 02:21:24.040 more evidence that there's this gut brain access and whether 2361 02:21:24.079 --> 02:21:27.639 the presents of food or the microbiome changes in the gut, 2362 02:21:28.639 --> 02:21:32.239 if they can affect brand, then maybe long term fasting, 2363 02:21:32.319 --> 02:21:35.639 periodic fasting, a few days of low calorie diet back 2364 02:21:35.680 --> 02:21:39.120 to back will be interesting to see how it impacts 2365 02:21:39.200 --> 02:21:39.840 brand health. 2366 02:21:40.600 --> 02:21:43.959 Very interesting. What are your thoughts on fat fasting where 2367 02:21:44.000 --> 02:21:48.719 people try and limit their blood glucose by only eating 2368 02:21:48.959 --> 02:21:54.520 mainly fats, mainly healthy Typically they'll eat healthier fats, avocados, 2369 02:21:54.559 --> 02:21:58.719 olive oils and not you know, and some animal fats perhaps, 2370 02:21:58.760 --> 02:22:03.600 but as a way to keep blood glucose low and 2371 02:22:03.680 --> 02:22:05.600 also time restrict This goes back to the kind of 2372 02:22:05.600 --> 02:22:08.879 low carbohydrate thing. What are your thoughts on that as 2373 02:22:09.000 --> 02:22:12.040 a general strategy for health. I mean it combines sort 2374 02:22:12.040 --> 02:22:14.280 of two general themes that are out there, I think, 2375 02:22:14.319 --> 02:22:16.639 both of which are you know, data are still incoming 2376 02:22:17.159 --> 02:22:20.120 that restricting the feeding times it can be beneficial as 2377 02:22:20.120 --> 02:22:23.280 well as keeping overall blood glucose lower, it can be beneficial. 2378 02:22:24.239 --> 02:22:26.959 Yeah, I think there is too much emphasis now on 2379 02:22:27.559 --> 02:22:33.399 blood sugar spiking or we don't know this kind of 2380 02:22:33.520 --> 02:22:38.159 eating pattern. For example, mentuea essentially telling pancreas that okay, 2381 02:22:38.239 --> 02:22:43.920 it's are the eyelet cells that produce insulin, that is okay, 2382 02:22:43.959 --> 02:22:47.399 you can take take a break, go on vacation for 2383 02:22:48.280 --> 02:22:53.440 a month or two or three months. My question is 2384 02:22:53.680 --> 02:22:58.159 it will be interesting to see what happens to those islets, because, 2385 02:22:59.360 --> 02:23:03.360 for example, we know that if we disuse or unuse 2386 02:23:03.440 --> 02:23:08.120 our muscles, there is muscle atrophy must also become weaker. 2387 02:23:09.600 --> 02:23:13.840 We don't know whether long term consequences of this very 2388 02:23:13.920 --> 02:23:18.120 low carbider diet where you are not essentially engaging the 2389 02:23:18.159 --> 02:23:23.120 islet cells periodically, what is its impact. So if there 2390 02:23:23.159 --> 02:23:27.559 is no impact, maybe it's okay. Maybe because as you know, 2391 02:23:27.639 --> 02:23:32.559 many people who actually work on ketogenic diet, the researchers themselves, 2392 02:23:33.040 --> 02:23:36.639 they find it very difficult to stay in true ketosenic 2393 02:23:36.680 --> 02:23:40.280 diet because the true ketogenic diet is consuming less than 2394 02:23:40.280 --> 02:23:43.000 ten percent of calories from carbohydrate. 2395 02:23:42.680 --> 02:23:44.440 And not very many from protein. A lot of people 2396 02:23:44.520 --> 02:23:47.520 think ketogenic diet allows them to eat massive amounts of meat, 2397 02:23:47.559 --> 02:23:50.239 and that's not necessarily the case. Just one clarification for 2398 02:23:50.319 --> 02:23:53.920 people such and was referring to islet cells of the pancreas, 2399 02:23:53.920 --> 02:23:57.399 which are the ones that manufacture insulin. So the question 2400 02:23:57.520 --> 02:23:59.959 is whether or not taking in low levels of blood 2401 02:24:00.600 --> 02:24:03.520 glucose by way of a low carbhydrate diet, those islet 2402 02:24:03.559 --> 02:24:05.879 cells are going to shut off their production. Very interesting, 2403 02:24:05.879 --> 02:24:07.840 I mean, the livers are very plastic tissue. I mean 2404 02:24:07.840 --> 02:24:12.399 it tends to react very dramatically to lifestyle changes. 2405 02:24:12.440 --> 02:24:14.000 Yeah, so that's why it will be interesting to

see 2406 02:24:14.040 --> 02:24:17.600 what happens once we know that. Even muscle disuse, for example, 2407 02:24:17.639 --> 02:24:21.440 people who become bet ridden, they lose some muscle musk, 2408 02:24:21.559 --> 02:24:24.200 but when they come back and exercise, they gain it back. 2409 02:24:24.840 --> 02:24:28.040 So it'll be interesting to see what happens in these 2410 02:24:28.040 --> 02:24:31.000 people who are going through long term ketosenic diet. And 2411 02:24:31.079 --> 02:24:34.959 of course, once in a while, because of social pressure 2412 02:24:35.040 --> 02:24:37.079 or something else, if they don't have access to food 2413 02:24:37.159 --> 02:24:41.520 or something happens, they may consume some sugar, some plot 2414 02:24:41.559 --> 02:24:45.559 glucus will spike, but it's not that spike is bad. 2415 02:24:45.840 --> 02:24:49.000 I mean, the reason why we have insulin. 2416 02:24:49.040 --> 02:24:51.280 Is for good reason to buffer that spike. 2417 02:24:51.360 --> 02:24:54.200 To buffer that spike. And also, you know people always 2418 02:24:54.239 --> 02:24:56.760 say that, well, if you have insulin produced or insulin 2419 02:24:56.879 --> 02:24:58.959 like growth factor, those are really bad and you should 2420 02:24:59.600 --> 02:25:02.520 avoid that. And I think that's a little bit extreme. 2421 02:25:02.680 --> 02:25:05.440 And I mean that's the insulin growth factor is evolved 2422 02:25:05.479 --> 02:25:09.799 in muscle, protein synthesis, tissues repair, maybe even cognition. 2423 02:25:10.079 --> 02:25:13.879 So yeah, yeah, and it also goes back to as 2424 02:25:13.959 --> 02:25:17.799 ay mTOR activism and all that stuff. People get really 2425 02:25:18.319 --> 02:25:22.680 excited about how to reduce stroactivism, repromizing, and all that stuff. 2426 02:25:23.200 --> 02:25:26.479 So this is where, again from Ccadian point of view, 2427 02:25:27.879 --> 02:25:34.799 I asked people to think. So two very popular drug 2428 02:25:35.040 --> 02:25:38.399 like molecules or drugs that people think will increase longevity 2429 02:25:38.479 --> 02:25:43.639 or met forming. It's many people agree, not all will 2430 02:25:43.639 --> 02:25:48.120 come to a consensus that it activates MP kindness or 2431 02:25:48.159 --> 02:25:51.680 the sensor and the cells that sense that your cells 2432 02:25:51.719 --> 02:25:55.879 are fasting. So metformine kind of activates it so that 2433 02:25:55.959 --> 02:25:58.879 it kind of you can say, although it may not 2434 02:25:58.959 --> 02:26:03.680 be scientifically accurate, the you know, fasting an appeal, so it. 2435 02:26:03.719 --> 02:26:06.280 Sort of mimics fasting and the and the thing I'd 2436 02:26:06.319 --> 02:26:08.399 lump in there with met forman is that burberine is 2437 02:26:08.479 --> 02:26:10.639 kind of the poor man's met form and it's a 2438 02:26:10.680 --> 02:26:14.319 tree bark extract that also dramatically lowers blood glucose. 2439 02:26:15.360 --> 02:26:19.559 It mimics kind of that fasting. And then rapam ice 2440 02:26:19.639 --> 02:26:26.440 in also kind of reduces into activiation, and people have 2441 02:26:26.520 --> 02:26:33.520 shown that rapam ice in and metformin can extend mouse 2442 02:26:33.600 --> 02:26:38.840 lifespan and improve health. Okay, so now let's go back 2443 02:26:38.840 --> 02:26:42.920 to the calorie restriction study that I meant in calorie 2444 02:26:42.920 --> 02:26:46.319 restriction people are giving food as a lump sum, and 2445 02:26:46.360 --> 02:26:49.079 they were essentially doing time restriction. The mice were doing 2446 02:26:49.079 --> 02:26:54.520 time restriction if we think about it, during daytime when 2447 02:26:55.200 --> 02:26:58.760 experimenters are coming to the bibarium, the mice should be 2448 02:26:58.840 --> 02:27:04.120 sleeping and fasting, and they should naturally have high level 2449 02:27:04.159 --> 02:27:08.159 of emp kinness if they're truly fasting. And they should 2450 02:27:08.200 --> 02:27:13.440 also have low level of emptor activity because emptor response 2451 02:27:13.479 --> 02:27:17.079 to insulin, and that should go off at night. So 2452 02:27:17.159 --> 02:27:22.239 my suspicion is in many of these experiments where the 2453 02:27:22.399 --> 02:27:26.079 mice we are allowed to eat at libtum even normal 2454 02:27:26.120 --> 02:27:31.520 standard child Now we know that as mice get older, 2455 02:27:31.879 --> 02:27:35.239 they actually consume a little bit more food during daytime. 2456 02:27:35.440 --> 02:27:38.399 Which is the equivalent of human night humans nighttime eating. 2457 02:27:38.440 --> 02:27:40.440 It was like nighttime eating we know is an issue. 2458 02:27:40.479 --> 02:27:41.959 I didn't realize that was more of an issue as 2459 02:27:42.000 --> 02:27:42.600 people age. 2460 02:27:42.680 --> 02:27:45.079 But yeah, so we don't know, but at least in mice, 2461 02:27:45.239 --> 02:27:48.520 because you know, we can put de mice in calorimetry 2462 02:27:48.600 --> 02:27:51.280 look at every single by the eating how much they're eating. 2463 02:27:52.520 --> 02:27:56.200 So I guess it was natural to see that. Researchers 2464 02:27:56.200 --> 02:28:00.079 found that there is some emptor activity during daytime on 2465 02:28:00.200 --> 02:28:02.479 the mice were not supposed to have mtro activity because 2466 02:28:02.479 --> 02:28:05.719 they should be fasting, and since they ate a little bit, uh, 2467 02:28:05.959 --> 02:28:10.159 they were snacking during daytime, ampicinus activity was not at 2468 02:28:10.159 --> 02:28:17.879 its peak. So giving metformine kind of mimic that fasting state, 2469 02:28:18.719 --> 02:28:23.360 and reducing mtroactivity by drug like rapam ice in also 2470 02:28:23.440 --> 02:28:26.959 kind of mimiced some aspect of the fasting state. So 2471 02:28:27.040 --> 02:28:31.920 my suspicion is since these studies were done always in 2472 02:28:32.040 --> 02:28:36.360 mice who

were supposed to be in the fasting state, 2473 02:28:36.440 --> 02:28:39.879 and both am to sorry rap ice in an ampicinus 2474 02:28:39.879 --> 02:28:42.879 activity or metformine kind of are mimicking that fasting state. 2475 02:28:43.360 --> 02:28:46.879 That's why we have seen those benefits. And it'll be 2476 02:28:46.879 --> 02:28:50.920 interesting to see if that experiment will be done in 2477 02:28:51.000 --> 02:28:53.760 humans in long term because many people are very excited 2478 02:28:53.760 --> 02:28:57.920 about you know, there is m long term metformine study 2479 02:28:58.040 --> 02:29:01.479 and then a lot of people are actually consuming good 2480 02:29:01.520 --> 02:29:04.520 amount of rapprimise in off level they can get their own. 2481 02:29:05.520 --> 02:29:09.399 So that's my curiosity. I'm not saying whether it's good 2482 02:29:09.479 --> 02:29:11.520 or bad, or whether there is science or not. That's 2483 02:29:11.520 --> 02:29:13.879 something that will be interesting to control for and see 2484 02:29:14.879 --> 02:29:18.639 Because recently I saw one of my again close friend 2485 02:29:18.680 --> 02:29:23.159 and colleague at scripts, Kacia Lamia suited a very simple, 2486 02:29:23.360 --> 02:29:26.559 elegant study people should have done in medform in field. 2487 02:29:27.200 --> 02:29:30.799 So she took mice and then measured their blood glucus 2488 02:29:30.840 --> 02:29:33.920 at different time of the day. And in fact, just 2489 02:29:34.040 --> 02:29:37.639 like human blood lookers, our blood glucus fluctuates a little bit. 2490 02:29:38.719 --> 02:29:41.399 She saw that to them and then in every two 2491 02:29:41.440 --> 02:29:46.159 hours or three hours on different days of course, so 2492 02:29:46.319 --> 02:29:49.319 we had the same dose of metform into mice, and 2493 02:29:49.440 --> 02:29:51.639 what she found was at different time of the day 2494 02:29:52.520 --> 02:29:57.639 met foromin had very dramatic change in glucous reducing ability. 2495 02:29:59.120 --> 02:30:02.440 So which means that even if you take metformin and 2496 02:30:02.479 --> 02:30:05.120 give at different time of the day for the mouse 2497 02:30:05.239 --> 02:30:08.280 or even for humans in very long term, of course, 2498 02:30:08.280 --> 02:30:10.920 in the mice, this mice one not diabetic or any 2499 02:30:10.920 --> 02:30:13.440 thing or healthy mice to begin with, so in long 2500 02:30:13.520 --> 02:30:19.000 term we might see benefits that are very different. So 2501 02:30:19.239 --> 02:30:22.600 this brings to this idea that well, maybe met foramin, 2502 02:30:23.079 --> 02:30:26.360 say at the end of the day evening met fomin 2503 02:30:26.639 --> 02:30:31.680 may trigger that fasting state much earlier than end of digestion, 2504 02:30:32.639 --> 02:30:35.360 whereas met farmin in the beginning of the day may 2505 02:30:35.360 --> 02:30:39.200 not at least from longevity perspective. I'm not talking about 2506 02:30:39.680 -->

02:30:43.319 diabetes type to diabet this year. So the same thing 2507 02:30:43.319 --> 02:30:47.440 with emptor is emptor going to have much better impact 2508 02:30:47.520 --> 02:30:54.639 if taken during evening morning before meal. So these are 2509 02:30:54.680 --> 02:30:58.440 my thoughts that go along with all this fat story 2510 02:30:58.479 --> 02:30:59.360 that we talked about. 2511 02:31:00.040 --> 02:31:02.200 Do you take met forman or burberine? 2512 02:31:02.760 --> 02:31:06.040 No, I haven't taken, although you know I have close 2513 02:31:06.520 --> 02:31:10.520 friend and colleague, Reubenshaw is now the director of Cancer 2514 02:31:10.559 --> 02:31:15.639 Center at SALKY. Extensively works on ampicainas and its mechanisms, 2515 02:31:15.799 --> 02:31:20.520 and so it's always fun to talk to him. 2516 02:31:20.719 --> 02:31:23.399 He's a he's a fan. Yeah, I've taken berberine before, 2517 02:31:23.440 --> 02:31:26.840 and I've had two different, very distinctive experiences with them. 2518 02:31:26.920 --> 02:31:31.360 First of all, berberine when ingested with carbohydrates, and particular 2519 02:31:31.440 --> 02:31:35.239 carbohydrates that have a lot of simple sugars. Definitely, I 2520 02:31:35.280 --> 02:31:37.040 know this because I measured my blood glucose I did. 2521 02:31:37.040 --> 02:31:41.440 The experiment allows you to flatten out your blood glucose response, 2522 02:31:42.799 --> 02:31:45.200 So you know, in some sense, if you're you know, 2523 02:31:45.239 --> 02:31:46.600 there is this idea if you're going to eat a 2524 02:31:46.639 --> 02:31:48.920 particularly big meal or sugary meal and you don't want 2525 02:31:48.920 --> 02:31:51.280 to get a massive blood glucose rise, you take Burberine 2526 02:31:51.360 --> 02:31:54.079 or met Form met Form and its prescription. That's how 2527 02:31:54.079 --> 02:31:56.120 I went with Burberene because it's as far as I know, 2528 02:31:56.200 --> 02:31:57.760 it works as well. 2529 02:31:58.399 --> 02:31:59.520 At least by healthy people. 2530 02:31:59.600 --> 02:32:04.840 Yeah, for healthy people. That's right. When I took Burberine 2531 02:32:05.559 --> 02:32:08.399 and did not ingest large amounts of simple sugars or 2532 02:32:08.440 --> 02:32:13.639 carbohydrates along with it, I experienced profound hypoglycemia. I felt 2533 02:32:13.639 --> 02:32:16.440 like complete garbage for about eight hours, and I had 2534 02:32:16.479 --> 02:32:19.520 one of the worst headaches of my life. Because, which 2535 02:32:19.559 --> 02:32:21.559 makes sense. You just got a blood sugar crash. So 2536 02:32:21.600 --> 02:32:24.239 if you lower blood your blood sugar when you already 2537 02:32:24.239 --> 02:32:26.719 have fairly low blood sugar and you're not ingesting carbohydrates, 2538 02:32:26.719 --> 02:32:29.600 you can really bottom out your your blood glucose. So 2539 02:32:29.680 --> 02:32:32.079 just say it's I say that as a for two reasons. 2540 02:32:32.079 --> 02:32:33.680 One is kind of a cautionary note and the other 2541 02:32:33.719 --> 02:32:36.360 one that when you think about the biology these compounds, 2542 02:32:36.360 --> 02:32:38.520 it makes perfect sense and I think that and I 2543 02:32:38.559 --> 02:32:40.440 did not pay attention to circadian effects. 2544 02:32:40.520 --> 02:32:42.920 Yeah yeah, yeah, I mean it's a you know when 2545 02:32:42.920 --> 02:32:47.079 I joined Sulk around that we know Ron Evanswa is 2546 02:32:47.120 --> 02:32:51.040 the kind of the big leader in sick in metabolism, 2547 02:32:51.760 --> 02:32:54.760 and he works on nuclear hormone receptors. There's are the 2548 02:32:54.879 --> 02:32:58.120 master regulator of metabolism and normal cells, cancer cells, and 2549 02:32:58.200 --> 02:33:02.040 many other And what is interesting was in the first 2550 02:33:02.040 --> 02:33:06.200 few years Ron did a very simple experiment. He just 2551 02:33:06.239 --> 02:33:08.799 looked at what time of the day these nuclear hormone 2552 02:33:08.799 --> 02:33:13.000 receptors are on at genexpression level and some at protein level, 2553 02:33:13.559 --> 02:33:16.680 and he found that almost all of them have a 2554 02:33:16.680 --> 02:33:22.120 Cicadian pattern at least in some tissue. So he went 2555 02:33:22.719 --> 02:33:28.000 to that length to say even that Cicadian is metabolism, 2556 02:33:28.200 --> 02:33:31.559 and metabolism is Cicadian. The reason why we have a 2557 02:33:31.600 --> 02:33:36.520 Cicadian rhythm is to have daily rhythms in food seeking 2558 02:33:36.600 --> 02:33:41.120 behavior and eating and also go through a period of 2559 02:33:41.120 --> 02:33:44.920 time when we should be fasting. And then on the 2560 02:33:44.959 --> 02:33:49.600 other hand, all the metabolic regulators also have to follow 2561 02:33:49.639 --> 02:33:53.959 that rule. And almost all metabolic regulators everything that we 2562 02:33:53.959 --> 02:34:01.040 can think of connected to metabolizing macronutrient, protein, carb, and fat, 2563 02:34:01.680 --> 02:34:04.440 they should also have a Cicadi under them or diurnal 2564 02:34:04.520 --> 02:34:08.799 cycle to aligne or misaligned. So for example, fat oxidation 2565 02:34:08.840 --> 02:34:13.440 should be in opposite phase with feeding, and you know 2566 02:34:14.239 --> 02:34:17.600 in retrospect at that time it was kind of amazing 2567 02:34:17.600 --> 02:34:20.799 to see Ron could foresee. Of course, he's smart enough 2568 02:34:20.799 --> 02:34:23.280 to foresee and predict that this is going to happen 2569 02:34:23.319 --> 02:34:26.040 to Ccadian field because at that time we're thinking about 2570 02:34:26.040 --> 02:34:30.360 the super chismatic nuclear sleep wake cycle and we're not 2571 02:34:30.399 --> 02:34:34.479 thinking too much about metabolisy. So that's the awesome thing 2572 02:34:34.479 --> 02:34:38.239 about Salt. Being at Salt because we have fifty pis 2573 02:34:38.920 --> 02:34:43.840 really crammed

into two awesome buildings and with open live structures, 2574 02:34:43.879 --> 02:34:46.319 so you bump into each other and talk to so 2575 02:34:46.799 --> 02:34:48.959 and with an ocean view, it's an awesome view. 2576 02:34:49.079 --> 02:34:51.760 Yes, it's an amazing place. I was lucky enough to 2577 02:34:51.760 --> 02:34:53.799 have an adjunct position there when I when my lab 2578 02:34:53.840 --> 02:34:56.680 was at UCSD, and uh, it is an amazing place 2579 02:34:56.760 --> 02:35:02.440 doing incredible groundbreaking work, which of of course includes yours. Listen, 2580 02:35:03.079 --> 02:35:07.079 such and I I'm clear now that we have to 2581 02:35:07.120 --> 02:35:11.440 have you back on for another series of discussions. Seriously speaking, 2582 02:35:11.479 --> 02:35:14.680 if you'd be so kind and willing to do that, 2583 02:35:14.879 --> 02:35:17.200 I want to thank you for several things. First of all, 2584 02:35:17.239 --> 02:35:19.159 for your taking the time today to sit down and 2585 02:35:19.200 --> 02:35:23.479 discuss these incredibly interesting ideas in detail. You know much 2586 02:35:23.479 --> 02:35:27.319 of what we talk about on the podcast is obviously 2587 02:35:27.559 --> 02:35:31.159 grounded in science and often but not always as actionable, 2588 02:35:31.239 --> 02:35:33.959 and so much of what we talked about today is 2589 02:35:34.000 --> 02:35:37.040 actionable in the sense that many people are already doing 2590 02:35:37.360 --> 02:35:40.440 certain dimensions of these things, some are not, some are 2591 02:35:40.719 --> 02:35:44.639 hearing about it and considering it. You've given us dozens 2592 02:35:44.959 --> 02:35:49.440 I've listed some out dozens of tools and considerations based 2593 02:35:49.479 --> 02:35:51.559 on whether or not people are engaging in shift work 2594 02:35:51.639 --> 02:35:52.799 or not. I think a lot of people are going 2595 02:35:52.840 --> 02:35:54.760 to realize that they are shift workers even though they 2596 02:35:54.760 --> 02:35:57.479 didn't think they were, because of the nature of their 2597 02:35:57.520 --> 02:36:01.600 habits now to light and activity and so forth. I 2598 02:36:01.639 --> 02:36:04.799 absolutely love the firefighter study because of its relevance to 2599 02:36:04.840 --> 02:36:08.520 the general population. Also not another nod to fighter fighters 2600 02:36:08.559 --> 02:36:12.840 and shift workers everywhere. Thank you, And I think among 2601 02:36:12.879 --> 02:36:16.200 the colleagues I've known for several decades now, you really 2602 02:36:16.239 --> 02:36:19.760 are one of a very small few who've managed to 2603 02:36:19.799 --> 02:36:23.959 do both animal studies and human studies, but also animal 2604 02:36:23.959 --> 02:36:26.879 studies with a very clear eye and a pointer toward 2605 02:36:27.559 --> 02:36:31.280 human health. And that's such a vital and rare thing, 2606 02:36:31.440 --> 02:36:35.799 especially in this stay of extremely

competitive funding. So I 2607 02:36:35.840 --> 02:36:37.399 want to thank you for your time today, for the 2608 02:36:37.440 --> 02:36:41.440 knowledge you share. The actionable aspects of that knowledge, the 2609 02:36:41.440 --> 02:36:44.159 science that you're doing in your laboratory. We will provide 2610 02:36:44.200 --> 02:36:46.120 links for people to learn more about you and of 2611 02:36:46.159 --> 02:36:50.079 course to go to the app so people can engage 2612 02:36:50.079 --> 02:36:52.600 in some of the signs directly. And of course you 2613 02:36:52.680 --> 02:36:55.440 have several wonderful books now that we will also link to, 2614 02:36:55.520 --> 02:36:57.760 both of which I've read and are wonderful in particularly 2615 02:36:57.760 --> 02:37:00.479 the book the first book, but also a book relate 2616 02:37:00.520 --> 02:37:03.520 to diabetes and so for diabetics and people interested in 2617 02:37:03.559 --> 02:37:08.120 metabolic and blood sugar regulation there. So you know, on 2618 02:37:08.200 --> 02:37:11.239 behalf of myself and my team here at the Hebman 2619 02:37:11.319 --> 02:37:13.200 Lamp podcast and all the listeners, I just want to 2620 02:37:13.239 --> 02:37:16.000 say thank you so much. Your time is valuable and 2621 02:37:16.360 --> 02:37:18.200 the fact that you share it with us and educate 2622 02:37:18.239 --> 02:37:19.719 so many people is really a gift. 2623 02:37:20.120 --> 02:37:23.680 Yeah, thank you. And actually, likewise, there are very few 2624 02:37:23.719 --> 02:37:28.079 scientists who have taken this leadership role that you have 2625 02:37:28.200 --> 02:37:32.079 taken to come and communicate science to the public. It's 2626 02:37:32.120 --> 02:37:37.120 not easy because sometimes you have to distill it down 2627 02:37:37.159 --> 02:37:41.239 to a simple SoundBite to the point where the scientists 2628 02:37:41.360 --> 02:37:44.040 and they'll say, oh, that may not be right. But 2629 02:37:44.120 --> 02:37:46.559 we always have to keep in mind that we are 2630 02:37:46.639 --> 02:37:50.360 always living in the dark age of science. Because the 2631 02:37:50.399 --> 02:37:52.520 reason why I say that this is not my quote. 2632 02:37:52.559 --> 02:37:55.319 Actually this is from one of my scientificate or Paul 2633 02:37:55.399 --> 02:38:00.719 Simil from scripts Iola says, think about it ten years ago. 2634 02:38:00.799 --> 02:38:04.959 What you thought was right and the best has already changed. 2635 02:38:05.760 --> 02:38:10.159 But one thing is the Cicadian rhythm and aligning it 2636 02:38:10.479 --> 02:38:14.479 to our internal clock, to our habit is very important. 2637 02:38:14.639 --> 02:38:19.000 And as you mentioned, we have our my Cycadian Clock app, 2638 02:38:19.000 --> 02:38:22.719 which is research facing, but we have also disted all 2639 02:38:22.719 --> 02:38:26.280 of these down to five or six timing component and 2640 02:38:26.360 --> 02:38:29.000 we have a new app called on Time Health or 2641 02:38:29.040 --> 02:38:30.000 get on Time Health. 2642 02:38:30.600 --> 02:38:33.000 People access to that through the standard app stores. 2643 02:38:33.200 --> 02:38:36.760 Yeah, so now it's a a little an app store 2644 02:38:37.280 --> 02:38:41.040 Google sorry, Apple, lap store. And we want to see 2645 02:38:41.799 --> 02:38:44.639 how because people always think about fasting, but as we 2646 02:38:44.719 --> 02:38:50.280 discussed today, feeding fasting or eating fasting and activity and 2647 02:38:50.360 --> 02:38:54.360 sleep kind of interlinked and we have to kind of 2648 02:38:54.399 --> 02:38:57.319 balance both of these. So that was the idea behind 2649 02:38:57.319 --> 02:39:01.760 this on Time Health program. And thank you Andy, because 2650 02:39:02.079 --> 02:39:09.040 what you're doing is immensely necessary, particularly these days when 2651 02:39:09.159 --> 02:39:12.079 science is moving at a very past phase. There are 2652 02:39:12.079 --> 02:39:15.120 a lot of results coming out. Sometimes something can be 2653 02:39:15.239 --> 02:39:21.959 very confusing and you spending your time communicat science is acceptable. 2654 02:39:22.319 --> 02:39:26.559 So thank you, and you're most welcome. It's days like 2655 02:39:26.600 --> 02:39:28.760 today where I get to sit down and talk to 2656 02:39:29.040 --> 02:39:31.680 brilliant colleagues like you who are doing the important work 2657 02:39:31.719 --> 02:39:35.159 that really matters so much. And so, as you mentioned 2658 02:39:35.159 --> 02:39:38.239 a moment ago, that there's a lot of darkness and 2659 02:39:38.239 --> 02:39:42.479 confusion out there, but thank you for being one of 2660 02:39:42.479 --> 02:39:46.719 those who's shining light. Thank you, thank you for joining 2661 02:39:46.760 --> 02:39:49.920 me for today's discussion with doctor Sachin Panda, all about 2662 02:39:49.920 --> 02:39:53.879 circadian biology and time restricted feeding. If you're learning from 2663 02:39:53.920 --> 02:39:56.959 and are enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel. 2664 02:39:57.000 --> 02:39:59.799 That's a terrific, zero cost way to support us. In addition, 2665 02:40:00.280 --> 02:40:03.200 please subscribe to the podcast on both Apple and Spotify. 2666 02:40:03.239 --> 02:40:05.440 And on both Apple and Spotify, you can also leave 2667 02:40:05.520 --> 02:40:07.639 us up to a five star review. If you have 2668 02:40:07.719 --> 02:40:10.639 questions for us, or comments about the podcast, or topics 2669 02:40:10.719 --> 02:40:12.559 you'd like me to cover, or guests that you'd like 2670 02:40:12.600 --> 02:40:15.200 me to include on the Huberman Lab podcast, please put 2671 02:40:15.200 --> 02:40:17.680 those in the comment section on YouTube. I do read 2672 02:40:17.799 --> 02:40:20.879 all the comments. In addition, please check out the sponsors 2673 02:40:20.879 --> 02:40:23.639 mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.

That's the 2674 02:40:23.639 --> 02:40:26.479 best way to support this podcast. On various episodes of 2675 02:40:26.520 --> 02:40:29.600 the Hubredman Lab podcast, we discuss supplements. While supplements aren't 2676 02:40:29.639 --> 02:40:32.920 necessary for everybody, many people derive tremendous benefit from them 2677 02:40:32.920 --> 02:40:37.159 for things like improving sleep, supporting hormones, improving focus, and 2678 02:40:37.200 --> 02:40:39.159 so on. The Hubreanman Lab podcast is proud to have 2679 02:40:39.200 --> 02:40:42.000 partnered with Momentous Supplements. We've done that for several reasons. 2680 02:40:42.000 --> 02:40:44.600 First of all, momentous supplements are of the very highest 2681 02:40:44.680 --> 02:40:48.040 quality and are used with various sports teams and various 2682 02:40:48.040 --> 02:40:50.520 studies through the Department of Defense and so on. And 2683 02:40:50.680 --> 02:40:54.959 momentous supplements tend to be in single ingredient formulations. Single 2684 02:40:55.040 --> 02:40:57.719 ingredient formulations are absolutely essential if you are going to 2685 02:40:57.760 --> 02:41:01.319 develop the most cost effective and biologically effective supplement regimen 2686 02:41:01.440 --> 02:41:04.719 for you, because, simply put, they allow you to adjust 2687 02:41:04.719 --> 02:41:07.639 the dosage of individual ingredients to alternate days that you 2688 02:41:07.639 --> 02:41:11.280 take different ingredients to cycle them and so forth. In addition, 2689 02:41:11.559 --> 02:41:15.719 momentous supplements are available internationally, which many other supplements are not. 2690 02:41:16.120 --> 02:41:17.799 If you'd like to see the supplements discussed on the 2691 02:41:17.840 --> 02:41:21.079 Hubreman Lab podcast, you can go to Livemomentus spelled OUs, 2692 02:41:21.280 --> 02:41:24.840 livemomentus dot com, slash hubreman. If you're not already following 2693 02:41:24.840 --> 02:41:29.559 me on social media, it's Huberman Lab on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, 2694 02:41:29.639 --> 02:41:32.239 and LinkedIn. And at all of those places I cover 2695 02:41:32.319 --> 02:41:34.559 science and science based tools, some of which overlap with 2696 02:41:34.559 --> 02:41:36.559 the contents of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of 2697 02:41:36.600 --> 02:41:38.959 which is distinct from the content covered on the Huberman 2698 02:41:39.040 --> 02:41:42.280 Lab podcast. Again, it's Huberman Lab on all social media platforms. 2699 02:41:42.360 --> 02:41:44.600 If you haven't already subscribed to the Huberman Lab podcast, 2700 02:41:44.639 --> 02:41:47.879 Neural Network Newsletter. It's a monthly newsletter that includes free 2701 02:41:47.920 --> 02:41:51.159 toolkits for things like Toolkit for Sleep, how to enhance 2702 02:41:51.360 --> 02:41:54.520 the quality and duration of your sleep, Toolkit for Focus, 2703 02:41:54.559 --> 02:41:58.040 Toolkit for Neuroplasticity, Toolkit for Deliberate cold exposure, heat exposure, 2704 02:41:58.040 --> 02:42:00.840 and summaries of podcast episodes. All of those toolkits can 2705 02:42:00.840 --> 02:42:03.280 be found by going to Hubermanlab dot com. Go to 2706 02:42:03.319 --> 02:42:06.000 the menu, scroll down to newsletter, and simply give us 2707 02:42:06.040 --> 02:42:08.319 your email. We do not share your email with anybody. 2708 02:42:08.319 --> 02:42:10.840 And again, the newsletters and toolkits are completely zero cost, 2709 02:42:10.920 --> 02:42:14.799 and you will also find some PDF examples of previous toolkits. Again, 2710 02:42:14.840 --> 02:42:17.840 that's Hubermanlab dot com. Thank you once again for joining 2711 02:42:17.840 --> 02:42:20.879 me for today's discussion with doctor Sachin Panda. I hope 2712 02:42:20.879 --> 02:42:24.280 you found the conversation to be as informative and actionable 2713 02:42:24.399 --> 02:42:27.840 as I did. And last, but certainly not least, thank 2714 02:42:27.879 --> 02:42:29.200 you for your interest in science

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