התמלול המלא של ep120: When Provincial Healthcare Goes Rogue + Our Pals Pets

00:04:00.180 Wassam is an activist and organizer. Listeners in Calgary may 65 00:04:00.219 --> 00:04:04.099 have encountered him at Palestine Solidarity events or the Calgary 66 00:04:04.139 --> 00:04:07.439 People's Assembly. We've brought Wassam here today to talk shop. 67 00:04:07.879 --> 00:04:10.879 What does it mean to organize in a place like Calgary? 68 00:04:12.780 --> 00:04:14.900 the left as a project does a few different things. 69 00:04:15.159 --> 00:04:18.769 Here at the Baird Advantage, we do research, we produce 70 00:04:18.850 --> 00:04:22.089 audio essays, we like to think about things, but sometimes 71 00:04:22.110 --> 00:04:25.810 it's necessary to do things out in the public eye 72 00:04:26.329 --> 00:04:28.490 and street actions as well. And I want to get 73 00:04:28.529 --> 00:04:32.189 into a bit of the nitty gritty of how that 74 00:04:32.250 --> 00:04:34.439 works out. How do you build coalitions? How do you 75 00:04:35.079 --> 00:04:38.920 do stuff in a place like Calgary? So, Sam, like 76 00:04:39.310 --> 00:04:41.290 I said some people on our eyes may know you 77 00:04:41.350 --> 00:04:45.850 from the Gaza Solidarity events and protests downtown, but can 78 00:04:45.870 --> 00:04:47.670 you tell us a little bit about yourself? Are you 79 00:04:47.709 --> 00:04:50.300 from Calgary, and how did you get involved in organizing? 80 00:04:51.399 --> 00:04:56.839 Yeah, sure. Thanks for having me on. So my name 81 00:04:56.860 --> 00:05:01.959 is Wissam Cooley. I was born and raised in Calgary, Alberta. I, 82 00:05:02.040 --> 00:05:04.569 from a pretty young age, was exposed to politics. My 83 00:05:04.610 --> 00:05:08.079 mom is from Lebanon, and so A lot of my 84 00:05:08.160 --> 00:05:12.870 younger years were shaped by a very sort of, I guess, 85 00:05:13.019 --> 00:05:18.050 intimate knowledge of what's going on in West Asia. My 86 00:05:18.089 --> 00:05:22.370 own family coming to this country as effectively refugees. And 87 00:05:22.430 --> 00:05:26.129 then during the early 2000s was a period where I 88 00:05:26.170 --> 00:05:30.000 was raised Muslim. And so living through 9-11, the quote-unquote 89 00:05:30.240 --> 00:05:37.699 war on terror era, And I lived viscerally what that 90 00:05:37.759 --> 00:05:40.879 meant to be a Muslim in the Western world at 91 00:05:40.920 --> 00:05:44.180 that time. And then also all of the political stuff 92 00:05:44.199 --> 00:05:47.730 that followed. So from a pretty young age, I was 93 00:05:47.790 --> 00:05:53.250 being brought out to demonstrations against the Iraq War, the 94 00:05:53.250 --> 00:05:57.610 2003 Iraq War, demonstrations in solidarity with Palestine. You'll recall 95 00:05:57.629 --> 00:06:00.290 that the Second Intifada also happened in that period, the 96 00:06:00.329 --> 00:06:04.600 early 2000s. the Afghan war. And so, uh, yeah, uh, 97 00:06:04.639 --> 00:06:08.540 the politics and international relations of West Asia were a 98 00:06:08.720 --> 00:06:11.550 part of my, um, I'm part of like, literally you 99 00:06:11.589 --> 00:06:13.850 could say it's baked into my genes and then also 100 00:06:13.910 --> 00:06:17.769 into my, you know, my, uh, you know, my exposure 101 00:06:17.790 --> 00:06:20.329 to activism. Um, very young, my parents would bring me 102 00:06:20.370 --> 00:06:23.269 out to all of these things. So, um, when I 103 00:06:23.750 --> 00:06:26.779 got into university, I studied at the university of Calgary. Um, 104 00:06:27.339 --> 00:06:31.000 I did my undergraduate degree in political science and international relations. 105 00:06:31.870 --> 00:06:35.850 with a minor in Cold War history. And it was 106 00:06:36.730 --> 00:06:39.370 from basically the first year that I got involved there, 107 00:06:39.550 --> 00:06:43.350 I was actively, I joined a student group called Solidarity 108 00:06:44.209 --> 00:06:47.660 with Palestinian Human Rights. So that was pretty important for 109 00:06:47.680 --> 00:06:49.959 me too. I mean, this was also like around that time, 110 00:06:50.540 --> 00:06:54.439 We had just lived through Operation Cast Lead in 2008 111 00:06:54.439 --> 00:06:57.540 when Gaza was... I mean, literally, this is a history 112 00:06:57.579 --> 00:07:00.399 of just all of the barbarism that's been inflicted on 113 00:07:00.420 --> 00:07:03.740 the people of Palestine and West Asia. So 2008, the 114 00:07:03.879 --> 00:07:06.740 year before I graduated high school, Israel carried out Operation 115 00:07:06.779 --> 00:07:12.379 Cast Lead where they killed 1,400 Palestinians, 300 children included. 116 00:07:13.019 --> 00:07:17.529 They were dropping white phosphorus in civilian areas everywhere. It was, 117 00:07:17.790 --> 00:07:20.550 at the time, the most horrendous thing that any of 118 00:07:20.610 --> 00:07:24.629 us could imagine. And I got into university shortly after that. 119 00:07:24.689 --> 00:07:26.509 And those years of my being at the University of 120 00:07:26.529 --> 00:07:31.379 Calgary were essentially defined by a series of Israeli assaults 121 00:07:31.480 --> 00:07:36.079 on Gaza between 2008 and about 2014, where they, you know, 122 00:07:36.620 --> 00:07:39.019 Kassled was the big one. There were some more attacks. 123 00:07:39.040 --> 00:07:42.519 About every year or two, there was a major military 124 00:07:42.600 --> 00:07:47.139 operation in Gaza. And then they culminated in 2014, which was, 125 00:07:47.230 --> 00:07:50.050 I believe that was the one called Pillar of, what 126 00:07:50.069 --> 00:07:51.670 was it? There's a few of them. There was Pillar 127 00:07:51.689 --> 00:07:57.290 of Cloud and Operation, also Protective Edge. I mean, they 128 00:07:57.310 --> 00:08:01.050 all came so rapidly one after the other. The memory 129 00:08:01.089 --> 00:08:03.910 of them kind of blends in for me. But the 130 00:08:03.949 --> 00:08:07.459 last one of those that I recall, there were over 2,000 131 00:08:07.459 --> 00:08:10.420 Palestinians killed

and several hundred children. And each of them 132 00:08:10.480 --> 00:08:15.410 were just as brutal as the last. covered up by 133 00:08:15.769 --> 00:08:19.560 Western governments, fully supported by the Canadian government. That was 134 00:08:19.680 --> 00:08:24.560 basically the defining politics of my university years in Calgary, anyway, 135 00:08:24.579 --> 00:08:27.860 at the University of Calgary. We had some really interesting 136 00:08:27.920 --> 00:08:31.759 events where some of you may recall when George Galloway 137 00:08:31.800 --> 00:08:36.279 was banned from entering Canada, and then he appealed that 138 00:08:36.299 --> 00:08:38.480 to the Supreme Court. That was under the Stephen Harper 139 00:08:38.519 --> 00:08:42.350 government at the time. The Supreme Court overturned his ban, 140 00:08:42.450 --> 00:08:45.190 and he was banned because of his solidarity with Gaza, basically, 141 00:08:45.210 --> 00:08:49.340 and his criticism of Western imperialism. Not just Gaza, actually, 142 00:08:49.360 --> 00:08:52.299 also with Lebanon, because you'll recall the 2006 Lebanon War 143 00:08:52.360 --> 00:08:56.519 also happened during that period. When the Supreme Court overturned it, 144 00:08:57.190 --> 00:09:00.750 he was toured across Canada at several Canadian universities. I 145 00:09:00.789 --> 00:09:02.990 was part of the group in Calgary that hosted him here. 146 00:09:03.409 --> 00:09:06.429 Calgary was one of his more notable stops because he 147 00:09:06.500 --> 00:09:09.940 went and then hand-delivered a letter to Jason Kenney, the 148 00:09:09.980 --> 00:09:13.919 then minister responsible for banning him from the country. He 149 00:09:13.960 --> 00:09:16.840 made a bit of a spectacle out of that. I 150 00:09:17.139 --> 00:09:22.059 was fortunate to have a pretty intense activist experience at 151 00:09:22.080 --> 00:09:25.159 the University of Calgary. After I graduated at the UFC, 152 00:09:25.399 --> 00:09:27.559 I then moved to the United Kingdom where I went 153 00:09:27.600 --> 00:09:31.840 to the School of Oriental and African Studies, SOAS. Yeah, 154 00:09:32.279 --> 00:09:35.000 I was there for a few years, active also in 155 00:09:35.039 --> 00:09:40.159 politics there. I joined an organization called the Revolutionary Communist Group. 156 00:09:40.559 --> 00:09:45.149 They're kind of, I call them post-Trotskyist, Leninist. They had 157 00:09:45.190 --> 00:09:49.159 a newspaper, as you know, as one does. And They 158 00:09:49.200 --> 00:09:51.659 produced it every two months and I basically became their 159 00:09:51.700 --> 00:09:56.190 Palestine columnist. So every issue for about four years, I 160 00:09:56.429 --> 00:10:01.700 was producing an article on like you know, analyzing the situation. 161 00:10:01.720 --> 00:10:03.559 So I watched a lot of those years very closely. 162 00:10:03.580 --> 00:10:05.679 It was a very interesting time to be in London 163 00:10:06.250 --> 00:10:10.750 because I witnessed a lot

of political turbulence there. About 164 00:10:10.789 --> 00:10:12.450 the time that I got there was around the time 165 00:10:12.470 --> 00:10:15.389 that Jeremy Corbyn became leader of the Labour Party. You 166 00:10:15.409 --> 00:10:16.529 let me know how long you want me to go 167 00:10:16.590 --> 00:10:18.370 on here, guys. I could talk about my history for 168 00:10:18.730 --> 00:10:19.190 quite a while. 169 00:10:19.750 --> 00:10:21.629 You hit the next question we were going to talk 170 00:10:21.690 --> 00:10:23.269 about there. Yeah, yeah. 171 00:10:23.480 --> 00:10:29.159 And just thinking about organizing both in Calgary and in 172 00:10:29.179 --> 00:10:33.019 the UK, can you compare those? Are there any key differences, 173 00:10:33.059 --> 00:10:35.419 you think, in working in those two contexts? 174 00:10:36.159 --> 00:10:39.759 London really is... You can't compare a place like Calgary. 175 00:10:39.779 --> 00:10:43.149 It's just... It's not even... You can't even... Can't even 176 00:10:43.169 --> 00:10:46.350 put them in the same category. London is just a 177 00:10:46.389 --> 00:10:49.549 city with... It's like there's multiple cities within a city 178 00:10:49.590 --> 00:10:52.820 in London, really. I mean, literally, politically, the city is 179 00:10:52.889 --> 00:10:56.960 actually split up into several boroughs, which have basically the 180 00:10:57.000 --> 00:11:00.399 equivalent of what would be our municipal government is actually 181 00:11:00.500 --> 00:11:04.440 spread out. There's several different versions, several different little boroughs 182 00:11:04.519 --> 00:11:07.019 carved out across the city. And these each end up 183 00:11:07.059 --> 00:11:11.779 having their own political battles. I remember attending and disrupting several... 184 00:11:12.679 --> 00:11:15.580 city council meetings, for example, when they tried to bring 185 00:11:15.620 --> 00:11:19.460 in the IHRA definition of antisemitism, which was the mechanism 186 00:11:19.519 --> 00:11:22.019 by which a lot of this witch hunting of the 187 00:11:22.059 --> 00:11:24.460 left was being done. And we would go to some 188 00:11:24.480 --> 00:11:28.820 of these and submit petitions. And when we got the 189 00:11:28.879 --> 00:11:30.320 answer we always knew we were going to get, then 190 00:11:30.340 --> 00:11:32.679 you just stand up and disrupt until they throw you out. 191 00:11:33.179 --> 00:11:36.259 Did this at a couple of different places. Just lots 192 00:11:36.279 --> 00:11:40.679 of actions like this. The group that I was with, RCG, 193 00:11:40.750 --> 00:11:45.000 is a Leninist organization. very committed. And I played a very, 194 00:11:45.240 --> 00:11:48.639 like I committed myself pretty heavily to it. I got 195 00:11:48.679 --> 00:11:51.120 involved in a lot of the leadership work that was 196 00:11:51.159 --> 00:11:55.710 being done, helping manage work across London. And even outside, 197 00:11:55.769 --> 00:11:58.409 there were a few

trips my organization sent me on 198 00:11:58.450 --> 00:12:01.120 to various cities. And I moved over to West London 199 00:12:01.129 --> 00:12:06.529 and Yeah, it was a very, very turbulent period. And Palestine, 200 00:12:06.549 --> 00:12:09.139 of course, was also on the agenda again and again, 201 00:12:09.200 --> 00:12:11.159 as it always is. I was there during the Great 202 00:12:11.200 --> 00:12:13.740 March of Return. You all may recall in 2018 when 203 00:12:14.100 --> 00:12:18.870 thousands of Palestinians in Gaza organized effectively a nonviolent protest 204 00:12:19.350 --> 00:12:21.509 in Gaza where they marched up to the wall and 205 00:12:22.110 --> 00:12:25.070 the Israelis just opened fire on them and killed them. 206 00:12:25.509 --> 00:12:28.370 Hundreds of people, they shot medical workers. They were firing 207 00:12:28.929 --> 00:12:33.279 with intent to either kill or permanently injure people. Thousands 208 00:12:33.320 --> 00:12:38.379 of Palestinians were injured in that. In London, in response 209 00:12:38.399 --> 00:12:39.860 to that, it was one of the biggest protests I'd 210 00:12:39.899 --> 00:12:44.799 ever seen. 100,000 people marched in London. We've had some 211 00:12:44.850 --> 00:12:46.809 big numbers here in Calgary, right? We get about 5,000. 212 00:12:46.789 --> 00:12:48.769 Maybe at some of the Gaza rallies, I've maybe seen 213 00:12:48.789 --> 00:12:56.149 over 5,000 people. But a protest of 100,000 people is 214 00:12:56.190 --> 00:13:02.309 something that you can't even, it's indescribable. It's a totally different, 215 00:13:02.950 --> 00:13:05.669 it's like nothing like I've seen here. So I have 216 00:13:05.690 --> 00:13:07.610 a lot of experience there. And then at the end 217 00:13:07.629 --> 00:13:09.769 of the COVID period, I kind of moved back here 218 00:13:09.870 --> 00:13:14.799 and kind of wasn't super involved. I kind of hung 219 00:13:14.840 --> 00:13:19.620 around with various groups, including Justice for Palestinians. I became 220 00:13:19.659 --> 00:13:23.309 a member of the Communist Party, the CPC party. attended 221 00:13:23.330 --> 00:13:26.289 some of their events, but I wasn't super active until 222 00:13:26.340 --> 00:13:28.960 October 7th of 2023 when everything changed. 223 00:13:30.000 --> 00:13:36.519 Thank you. And after the Alexa flood, how did things 224 00:13:37.340 --> 00:13:45.009 happen in Calgary? How did weekly rallies emerge as the 225 00:13:45.049 --> 00:13:47.789 approach to be taken? What were things like in those 226 00:13:47.889 --> 00:13:48.490 early weeks? 227 00:13:50.070 --> 00:13:54.700 Well, The night of, well, here it was nighttime. When 228 00:13:54.759 --> 00:13:58.830 October 7th happened, I saw the news and I was watching. 229 00:14:00.190 --> 00:14:02.809 Watching what happened on that day was just remarkable. I 230 00:14:02.830 --> 00:14:07.529 was in the resistance telegram channels or whatever, seeing the 231 00:14:07.570 --> 00:14:13.269 footage as it was being shared real time. I couldn't 232 00:14:13.309 --> 00:14:16.179 believe what I was seeing. For folks who have been 233 00:14:16.200 --> 00:14:19.620 following Palestine for a long difficult to put into words 234 00:14:19.720 --> 00:14:26.019 how significant October 7th was. The illusion of Israeli superiority 235 00:14:26.120 --> 00:14:29.820 and supremacy was shattered on that day. And I mean, 236 00:14:30.600 --> 00:14:33.179 up until that point, there was a belief that Israel 237 00:14:33.220 --> 00:14:38.409 was untouchable, that its security and military apparatus was uncontested 238 00:14:38.570 --> 00:14:42.850 and no one, let alone the Palestinians under occupation, that 239 00:14:43.090 --> 00:14:45.730 no one in the world essentially could even come close 240 00:14:45.750 --> 00:14:48.720 to challenging it. And then you had these just these 241 00:14:48.860 --> 00:14:52.460 like ragtag resistance fighters who literally, I mean, the way 242 00:14:52.480 --> 00:14:55.980 they crossed over the wall, they hooked up paragliders to 243 00:14:56.379 --> 00:15:00.250 little motorized like things that they then sat on and 244 00:15:00.490 --> 00:15:03.090 just literally flew over the wall and then had, you know, 245 00:15:03.570 --> 00:15:05.850 opened up a way for the parts of the wall 246 00:15:05.870 --> 00:15:09.529 to then be broken down by folks. So I was 247 00:15:09.570 --> 00:15:12.220 watching all of this from here in Calgary. I was 248 00:15:12.360 --> 00:15:14.460 in JFP, but there wasn't really, I mean, the only 249 00:15:14.500 --> 00:15:16.980 thing JFP was really doing at the time was There 250 00:15:17.000 --> 00:15:19.120 was a campaign about the Green Line. Some of you 251 00:15:19.159 --> 00:15:21.820 may remember this, that the city of Calgary building the 252 00:15:21.840 --> 00:15:25.570 Green Line had contracted a company that was on the 253 00:15:25.610 --> 00:15:29.309 BDS list. And so there was a campaign basically around that. 254 00:15:30.149 --> 00:15:32.129 But there wasn't much else going on, right? Which is 255 00:15:32.169 --> 00:15:35.250 kind of what JFP always was before. So I remember 256 00:15:35.289 --> 00:15:37.730 on October, I believe it was the day after October 8th, 257 00:15:37.929 --> 00:15:39.450 I wrote to the group and I said, hey, guys, 258 00:15:39.710 --> 00:15:41.870 I'm sure you've all seen what's happened. We need to 259 00:15:42.070 --> 00:15:44.909 start planning some protests in Calgary. This is going to 260 00:15:44.970 --> 00:15:47.809 change everything. We need to get active. And so we 261 00:15:47.830 --> 00:15:50.230 planned a protest for that week. I believe it was 262 00:15:50.289 --> 00:15:52.950 just a few days after. It was pretty well attended. 263 00:15:53.789 --> 00:15:57.029 And we just decided we're going to continue calling them. 264 00:15:57.679 --> 00:15:59.559 And it just became a weekly thing for us. And, 265 00:15:59.919 --> 00:16:02.120 you

know, we were mirroring what was happening everywhere else. 266 00:16:02.639 --> 00:16:05.379 And from that point, you know, there were some political battles, 267 00:16:05.419 --> 00:16:07.470 which we can get into around, you know, the shape 268 00:16:07.519 --> 00:16:10.250 that that movement would take at the beginning. Because there was, 269 00:16:10.789 --> 00:16:12.730 I understand I stepped into a bit of a different 270 00:16:12.769 --> 00:16:16.389 political context here, which we can maybe get into more 271 00:16:16.409 --> 00:16:19.309 of that. But that's where this started from was just, 272 00:16:19.409 --> 00:16:21.330 you know, October 7th happened. And we were like, this 273 00:16:21.350 --> 00:16:24.100 has to, we have to respond from Calgary. And so 274 00:16:24.129 --> 00:16:26.279 we did what we could. And out of that came 275 00:16:26.299 --> 00:16:26.860 this protest movement. 276 00:16:36.940 --> 00:16:39.860 There's a legacy episode of The Alberta Advantage. Find out 277 00:16:39.879 --> 00:16:42.879 more about the show at albertadvantagepod.com and hear the rest 278 00:16:42.899 --> 00:16:47.970 of the conversation at harbingermedianetwork.com. You're listening to Harbinger Showcase 279 00:16:48.029 --> 00:16:50.970 on your local campus and community radio station. I'm Harbinger 280 00:16:50.990 --> 00:17:03.759 Director Andre Goulet in Montreal. Coming up next. Since launching 281 00:17:03.779 --> 00:17:08.029 in October 2022, Sources has provided in-depth interviews with experts 282 00:17:08.069 --> 00:17:11.309 and newsmakers across the country from the award-winning journalist at 283 00:17:11.410 --> 00:17:14.230 Press Progress. On this excerpt from a recent episode, health 284 00:17:14.269 --> 00:17:17.920 reporter Bhrishti Basu hosts a panel discussing what happens when 285 00:17:17.980 --> 00:17:21.460 provinces go rogue with healthcare policies that defy federal laws 286 00:17:21.700 --> 00:17:25.569 and evidence-based solutions. with Friends of Medicare's Chris Galloway, Doctors 287 00:17:25.609 --> 00:17:28.390 for Safer Drug Policies, Dr. Ryan Harriot, the Canadian Centre 288 00:17:28.410 --> 00:17:31.990 for Policy Alternatives, Andrew Longhurst, and Dr. Yasin Chalaka from 289 00:17:32.009 --> 00:17:34.589 the McGill Department of Global and Public Health and Nunavik 290 00:17:34.670 --> 00:17:37.130 Regional Board of Health and Social Service. Now, here's a 291 00:17:37.150 --> 00:17:38.710 highlight from that conversation. 292 00:17:40.950 --> 00:17:42.130 This is Sources. 293 00:17:43.079 --> 00:17:44.279 I'm your host, Eric Wickham. 294 00:17:45.380 --> 00:17:48.759 Canada's single-payer healthcare system has always been a point of 295 00:17:48.839 --> 00:17:53.660 national pride. But, according to advocates... policy decisions by the 296 00:17:53.700 --> 00:17:57.660 provinces are actively undermining the healthcare system we all rely on. 297 00:17:58.339 --> 00:18:01.980 Alberta's expansion of private pay models, British Columbia's reversal of 298 00:18:02.039 --> 00:18:06.750 harm reduction and decriminalization measures amid an ongoing public health emergency, 299 00:18:07.170 --> 00:18:11.329 Quebec's handling of tuberculosis outbreaks in Inuit communities, and Ontario's 300 00:18:11.349 --> 00:18:14.950 cuts to funding for long-term care are all raising concerns 301 00:18:15.049 --> 00:18:18.769 among healthcare advocates about the direction of health policy across 302 00:18:18.789 --> 00:18:22.309 the country. In a webinar on July 15th, Press Progress 303 00:18:22.349 --> 00:18:25.730 health reporter, Brishti Basu, spoke with four healthcare experts and 304 00:18:25.789 --> 00:18:28.869 advocates about what is going on in the provinces and 305 00:18:28.930 --> 00:18:31.130 what can be done to stop our healthcare system from 306 00:18:31.190 --> 00:18:35.109 getting worse. The following is a conversation with Chris Galloway 307 00:18:35.150 --> 00:18:38.470 from Friends of Medicare, Dr. Ryan Harriot from Doctors for 308 00:18:38.509 --> 00:18:42.970 Safer Drug Policy, Andrew Longhurst from Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives, 309 00:18:43.529 --> 00:18:46.630 and Dr. Yasin Cholokov from the McGill Department of Global 310 00:18:46.650 --> 00:18:49.440 and Public Health and Nunavik Regional Board of Health and 311 00:18:49.460 --> 00:18:50.180 Social Service. 312 00:18:51.140 --> 00:18:55.220 Welcome everyone to the first ever Press Progress Health Panel. 313 00:18:55.920 --> 00:18:59.700 We're joined today by around 50 people and counting, and 314 00:18:59.720 --> 00:19:01.640 we're so glad that you could all make it this afternoon. 315 00:19:02.140 --> 00:19:06.130 My name is Bhrishti Basu. I am Press Progress' health 316 00:19:06.150 --> 00:19:09.769 reporter and editor of Pulse Check, our in-house health newsletter. 317 00:19:10.490 --> 00:19:13.109 Helping me run this shindig behind the scenes is our 318 00:19:13.150 --> 00:19:17.809 brilliant publisher, Romi Garrido, and our Ontario reporter slash resident 319 00:19:17.849 --> 00:19:23.309 tech whiz, Eric Wickham. Today's discussion is all about when 320 00:19:23.410 --> 00:19:27.950 provinces go rogue with their health policies, implementing ideas that 321 00:19:28.009 --> 00:19:32.829 defy federal laws or defy scientific evidence. We'll hear from 322 00:19:33.470 --> 00:19:37.289 our panelists first and answer any questions from the audience 323 00:19:37.369 --> 00:19:40.650 at the end. If you have a question, please use 324 00:19:40.690 --> 00:19:43.289 the Q & A feature on Zoom at any time 325 00:19:43.329 --> 00:19:44.990 throughout this event, and we'll try to get to you 326 00:19:45.029 --> 00:19:49.089 following the discussion. You can also turn on closed captions 327 00:19:49.190 --> 00:19:52.880 using Zoom feature down below. So without further ado, I'm 328 00:19:53.099 --> 00:19:56.019 so pleased to be joined today by our expert panelists. 329 00:19:56.319 -->

00:19:58.460 Thank you all for making the time on this summer 330 00:19:58.500 --> 00:20:03.000 afternoon to share your insights with us all. Introducing, in 331 00:20:03.119 --> 00:20:07.079 no particular order, Chris Galloway, the Executive Director of Friends 332 00:20:07.119 --> 00:20:10.799 of Medicare in Alberta. Chris is an experienced community organizer 333 00:20:10.910 --> 00:20:15.279 and advocate for public health care. He also has experience 334 00:20:15.319 --> 00:20:18.589 working for the Alberta Federation of Labor. He's worked in 335 00:20:18.650 --> 00:20:22.329 three provincial legislative assemblies and for a variety of nonprofit 336 00:20:22.430 --> 00:20:26.630 and community organizations. Next up, we have Dr. Ryan Harriot, 337 00:20:26.950 --> 00:20:30.259 a family doctor and addiction medicine specialist in Victoria, BC, 338 00:20:30.700 --> 00:20:33.740 who also co-founded Doctors for Safer Drug Policy, which is 339 00:20:33.920 --> 00:20:37.259 a group of Canadian physicians who advocate for more compassionate, 340 00:20:37.740 --> 00:20:42.819 evidence-based healthcare policies. Next up, Andrew Longhurst, a senior researcher 341 00:20:42.940 --> 00:20:46.119 and political economist at the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives, 342 00:20:46.589 --> 00:20:49.650 where he leads the Health Policy Desk. Andrew has over 343 00:20:49.650 --> 00:20:53.490 40 publications under his belt on topics like healthcare finance, 344 00:20:53.880 --> 00:20:58.700 primary care, surgical wait times, and privatization. Last but not least, 345 00:20:58.740 --> 00:21:02.730 we've got Dr. Yasin Cholokov, an assistant professor at McGill 346 00:21:02.769 --> 00:21:06.289 University's Department of Global and Public Health. He also works 347 00:21:06.390 --> 00:21:09.049 as a public health physician at the Nunavik Regional Board 348 00:21:09.089 --> 00:21:12.869 of Health and Social Services, where he supports infectious disease surveillance, 349 00:21:13.130 --> 00:21:17.690 outbreak response, and public health policy across 14 remote Inuit 350 00:21:17.710 --> 00:21:21.119 communities in northern Quebec. Thank you all again for being here. 351 00:21:21.640 --> 00:21:25.230 So let's start off with an introductory question. Can you 352 00:21:25.269 --> 00:21:28.390 each describe the main health policy or the main health 353 00:21:28.490 --> 00:21:32.130 issue you're concerned with in your jurisdiction or area of expertise? 354 00:21:33.250 --> 00:21:34.529 Let's start with Ryan. 355 00:21:35.309 --> 00:21:35.609 Sure. 356 00:21:35.670 --> 00:21:38.549 Hi, thank you for having me. And what a pleasure 357 00:21:38.569 --> 00:21:41.200 it is, I'm sure, to be addressing such a keener audience. 358 00:21:42.259 --> 00:21:45.779 I mean, for myself and for my organization, we primarily 359 00:21:45.940 --> 00:21:48.619 work in the area of addiction, so substance use policy. 360 00:21:49.680 --> 00:21:52.460 Most of our patients or many of them struggle with 361 00:21:53.279 --> 00:21:57.059 substance use disorders. So that's our primary focus. Having said that, 362 00:21:57.180 --> 00:22:00.400 I mean, that is kind of a lens into what's 363 00:22:00.420 --> 00:22:03.980 going on more generally with increasing what we would call 364 00:22:04.039 --> 00:22:07.880 political interference in the practice of medicine. So although sometimes 365 00:22:07.920 --> 00:22:13.250 that begins with substance use care, you know, we've seen experiments, 366 00:22:13.309 --> 00:22:15.509 if you will, with provinces trying to clamp down on 367 00:22:15.529 --> 00:22:20.230 gender affirming care made and other policy areas. And so 368 00:22:20.269 --> 00:22:22.589 from our perspective, this is really just the canary in 369 00:22:22.609 --> 00:22:25.130 the coal mine when we talk about how people with 370 00:22:25.190 --> 00:22:28.519 addictions are treated. And we see this spreading to other 371 00:22:28.579 --> 00:22:29.960 areas of healthcare in the near future. 372 00:22:30.470 --> 00:22:31.150 Thank you, Ryan. 373 00:22:31.930 --> 00:22:32.289 Yasin? 374 00:22:32.690 --> 00:22:34.950 I would say that from the setting where I work, 375 00:22:34.990 --> 00:22:38.450 I think the main issue would be ensuring equitable access 376 00:22:38.470 --> 00:22:40.990 to care for all populations. So that's an issue that 377 00:22:41.630 --> 00:22:44.859 in my day to day I see specifically working in 378 00:22:44.900 --> 00:22:48.160 Nunavik where a lot of the care where there are 379 00:22:48.180 --> 00:22:51.519 small communities and patients receive care. Care that is sometimes 380 00:22:51.920 --> 00:22:54.940 subpar of what we would expect for the Canadian health system. 381 00:22:55.440 --> 00:22:59.829 And where sometimes the local epidemiology justifies different packages of 382 00:22:59.880 --> 00:23:02.990 care and different services that are not made available or 383 00:23:03.009 --> 00:23:08.049 made available through incredibly complicated hoops for the population there. 384 00:23:08.089 --> 00:23:10.150 I would like that to be something. 385 00:23:09.869 --> 00:23:10.789 That is addressed. 386 00:23:11.230 --> 00:23:11.650 Thank you. 387 00:23:11.670 --> 00:23:12.829 Let's go to Chris next. 388 00:23:13.410 --> 00:23:16.569 Yeah, for us here in Alberta, it's obviously the existential 389 00:23:16.609 --> 00:23:20.069 threat we're facing to single-payer Medicare in Canada with the 390 00:23:20.109 --> 00:23:22.910 bringing in of two-tier health care. Alberta is set to 391 00:23:22.970 --> 00:23:26.230 start in September, so the clock is ticking. We have 392 00:23:26.250 --> 00:23:29.549 a government that has passed three major pieces of legislation, 393 00:23:29.609 --> 00:23:33.150 Health Statutes Amendment Acts, in the last year. And they 394 00:23:33.289 --> 00:23:37.230 bring forward things like private hospitals, private diagnostics, pay-out-of-pocket health care. 395 00:23:37.730 --> 00:23:41.180

And most concerningly, in Bill 11, a full-on two-tier health 396 00:23:41.200 --> 00:23:45.420 care system, which prioritizes insurance companies and the ability to 397 00:23:45.759 --> 00:23:49.160 sell insurance products for medically necessary care instead of our 398 00:23:49.200 --> 00:23:51.029 single-payer Medicare plan. 399 00:23:50.829 --> 00:23:51.890 That we rely on. 400 00:23:51.930 --> 00:23:54.730 So really, it's this kind of existential change to health 401 00:23:54.750 --> 00:23:56.849 care delivery and financing we're seeing in Alberta. 402 00:23:57.069 --> 00:23:57.390 Thank you. 403 00:23:57.470 --> 00:23:58.630 And last but not least, Andrew. 404 00:23:59.069 --> 00:24:02.410 Yeah, I will echo Chris. I think really we are 405 00:24:02.690 --> 00:24:07.470 at the most significant juncture in terms of Canadian Medicare 406 00:24:07.529 --> 00:24:12.170 public health care in this country with the very real plans, 407 00:24:12.609 --> 00:24:16.849 as Chris said, by September, a two-tier system will be 408 00:24:16.890 --> 00:24:20.730 in place in that province. And then I think by extension, 409 00:24:20.769 --> 00:24:23.849 we're seeing a lot of provinces, while they have not 410 00:24:24.009 --> 00:24:29.240 explicitly legislated two-tier health care, many provinces are allow private 411 00:24:29.259 --> 00:24:35.579 for-profit companies to operate by charging user fees in contravention 412 00:24:35.619 --> 00:24:38.910 of the Canada Health Act, and those provinces continue to 413 00:24:38.950 --> 00:24:42.710 do so. And provinces like Ontario and certainly Quebec, where 414 00:24:42.750 --> 00:24:46.390 it's been underway for longer, have a large and growing 415 00:24:46.809 --> 00:24:53.319 private for-profit industry, providing contracted and private pay surgical services, diagnostics, 416 00:24:53.859 --> 00:24:56.640 increasingly virtual and primary care. And so what we are 417 00:24:56.680 --> 00:25:01.640 seeing is the building of this quite significant industry is 418 00:25:01.680 --> 00:25:05.519 really sort of the appetizer to a two-tier system. Governments 419 00:25:05.579 --> 00:25:09.039 contract with these providers, and then like in Alberta, they're 420 00:25:09.079 --> 00:25:12.400 now flipping the switch to explicitly legislate two-tier healthcare. 421 00:25:13.319 --> 00:25:13.720 Thank you. 422 00:25:13.859 --> 00:25:17.180 We'll talk more about privatization in a second, but just 423 00:25:17.400 --> 00:25:20.029 for the next question, if you could each have one 424 00:25:20.130 --> 00:25:23.789 health policy implemented today, in your jurisdiction or federally across 425 00:25:23.809 --> 00:25:26.170 the board right now, what would it be and why? 426 00:25:26.509 --> 00:25:28.109 Let's start with Yasin. 427 00:25:29.349 --> 00:25:32.710 I'll answer both locally and federally. I think at a 428 00:25:32.769 --> 00:25:36.640 local level, ensuring that the health system is financed on 429 00:25:36.720 --> 00:25:40.099 a needs basis. So ensuring that the health needs of 430 00:25:40.119 --> 00:25:42.839 the population are filled and that the resources to do 431 00:25:42.900 --> 00:25:47.720 so are provided by the health systems as what would 432 00:25:47.779 --> 00:25:53.369 be most important, rather than ensuring equality in some of 433 00:25:53.410 --> 00:25:57.710 the systems where equality does not actually lead to the 434 00:25:57.750 --> 00:26:01.230 same outcomes and difference in more complex settings. And at 435 00:26:01.250 --> 00:26:03.170 a federal level, I would say we're at a moment 436 00:26:03.190 --> 00:26:06.470 where there's a good opportunity for improving data sharing and 437 00:26:06.509 --> 00:26:10.630 also improving clinician mobility, things that would integrate the Canadian 438 00:26:10.690 --> 00:26:14.170 health system and help it be more closer to one 439 00:26:14.210 --> 00:26:16.589 health system where patients would have an easier time when 440 00:26:16.609 --> 00:26:19.710 they're moving around for healthcare, but also moving around for 441 00:26:19.779 --> 00:26:23.039 life events. There's currently bills being discussed at the federal 442 00:26:23.059 --> 00:26:26.859 level to improve data sharing, including the Bill S-5, Connected 443 00:26:26.880 --> 00:26:29.220 Care for Canadians Act. Those are things that I would 444 00:26:29.349 --> 00:26:32.430 like to see kind of come through and help us 445 00:26:32.470 --> 00:26:36.549 build a stronger Canadian health system rather than many jurisdictional 446 00:26:36.569 --> 00:26:38.039 health systems, which is the current. 447 00:26:37.839 --> 00:26:38.599 Situation we have. 448 00:26:38.900 --> 00:26:39.380 Thank you. 449 00:26:39.400 --> 00:26:40.920 Let's go to Andrew next. 450 00:26:41.400 --> 00:26:44.390 Well, I would like to see us enforce our existing 451 00:26:44.430 --> 00:26:47.349 legislation as a starting point. Right now, we're not seeing 452 00:26:47.390 --> 00:26:50.809 the Canada Health Act being enforced by the federal government. 453 00:26:51.809 --> 00:26:57.240 And this is leading provinces like Alberta to flagrantly violate 454 00:26:57.539 --> 00:27:03.140 statute with apparently no consequences yet. Or at this time, 455 00:27:03.200 --> 00:27:05.789 we haven't seen any indication from the federal government that 456 00:27:05.809 --> 00:27:09.150 there will be consequences, which is of grave concern. So 457 00:27:09.190 --> 00:27:11.509 I think that would be my initial response. But I 458 00:27:11.549 --> 00:27:14.670 would like to see, you know, since the pandemic, the 459 00:27:14.710 --> 00:27:17.539 early days of the pandemic, we talked a lot about 460 00:27:17.559 --> 00:27:23.880 the necessity and urgency of improving long-term care. And I think, unfortunately, 461 00:27:23.920 --> 00:27:27.059 we've lost momentum in that regard. And so having national 462 00:27:27.119 --> 00:27:30.210 standards for long-term care in this country, which

are not 463 00:27:30.299 --> 00:27:32.380 part of the Canada Health Act and there has been 464 00:27:32.420 --> 00:27:36.799 movement for legislation in parallel to the Canada Health Act 465 00:27:36.839 --> 00:27:40.809 that brings it into the public realm and ensures that 466 00:27:40.849 --> 00:27:43.269 there are consistent standards across the country. 467 00:27:43.289 --> 00:27:45.130 Thank you. 468 00:27:45.170 --> 00:27:45.390 Chris? 469 00:27:46.250 --> 00:27:49.650 And beyond what others have said. Both in Alberta and 470 00:27:49.710 --> 00:27:52.230 across the country, what we desperately need is a workforce 471 00:27:52.269 --> 00:27:56.009 plan for healthcare. We have a booming population here in Alberta. 472 00:27:56.069 --> 00:27:59.539 We do not have the skilled health professionals, doctors, nurses, 473 00:27:59.650 --> 00:28:02.180 allied health that we need to provide the care to 474 00:28:02.220 --> 00:28:05.500 our population. That's why we're seeing such an issue with access. 475 00:28:05.539 --> 00:28:08.619 That's why we're seeing markets pop up for two-tier healthcare 476 00:28:08.660 --> 00:28:11.240 because of long waits. People are willing to find ways 477 00:28:11.279 --> 00:28:13.400 to pay if they can. And what we really need 478 00:28:13.440 --> 00:28:16.220 to solve is our workforce issues rather than the path 479 00:28:16.240 --> 00:28:18.859 we're going down with two-tier healthcare will only make them worse. 480 00:28:19.440 --> 00:28:21.279 But we don't have any sort of workforce plan in Alberta. 481 00:28:21.299 --> 00:28:24.599 We haven't mapped out the workforce versus the population. We 482 00:28:24.640 --> 00:28:26.660 don't have a retention strategy. We don't know who we 483 00:28:26.700 --> 00:28:29.940 have working where, let alone recruitment or connecting that to 484 00:28:29.980 --> 00:28:32.539 training and post-secondary and so on. And then that needs 485 00:28:32.559 --> 00:28:35.109 to happen across the country so that we're not just 486 00:28:35.170 --> 00:28:37.470 poaching from each other with incentives to get people to 487 00:28:37.509 --> 00:28:40.210 move a province or two over to come work, but 488 00:28:40.369 --> 00:28:42.470 actually have a plan for health care and the workforce 489 00:28:42.549 --> 00:28:43.049 in Canada. 490 00:28:43.430 --> 00:28:46.009 Yeah, I don't want to in any way take away 491 00:28:46.069 --> 00:28:49.380 from the dire alarms being raised here. But, you know, 492 00:28:49.460 --> 00:28:52.480 to to your health care, having said that, it's not 493 00:28:52.500 --> 00:28:54.900 a competition. I'm here to bang a different drum today, 494 00:28:54.940 --> 00:28:57.539 of course. So, you know, I'll point out that we 495 00:28:57.640 --> 00:29:00.819 are in the biggest public health crisis in our history, right? 496 00:29:00.859 --> 00:29:03.240 It's taken more lives than AIDS. It's taken more lives 497 00:29:03.269 --> 00:29:03.809 than COVID. 498 00:29:04.390 --> 00:29:05.809 And it continues. It's not over. 499 00:29:05.910 --> 00:29:08.430 And so not to diminish anything, you know, that we 500 00:29:08.470 --> 00:29:11.029 need to do with regards to enforcing the Canada. 501 00:29:10.750 --> 00:29:11.630 Health Act and so on. 502 00:29:11.670 --> 00:29:14.269 But, I mean, the Public Health Agency of Canada, through 503 00:29:14.289 --> 00:29:18.380 public health law, has enormous power. You know, they could 504 00:29:18.450 --> 00:29:22.740 regulate the toxic drug supply tomorrow if they wished. And 505 00:29:22.759 --> 00:29:25.460 they've chosen not to for decades. You know, 10 years 506 00:29:25.480 --> 00:29:28.849 that they count and a few more that they don't. So, 507 00:29:29.309 --> 00:29:32.079 you know, it's really simple. I mean, the federal government, 508 00:29:32.079 --> 00:29:34.750 either in concert with the provinces or on its own, 509 00:29:34.750 --> 00:29:37.910 could could regulate the drug supply and i i highlight 510 00:29:37.930 --> 00:29:42.240 that because of all the terrible outcomes we can contemplate 511 00:29:42.759 --> 00:29:45.799 you know it's hard to get past the brass tacks 512 00:29:45.839 --> 00:29:49.299 of deaths that's the ultimate negative outcome of course and 513 00:29:50.440 --> 00:29:53.700 there's only really one way that you're going to dramatically 514 00:29:53.759 --> 00:29:55.740 reduce the number of deaths we're having in this in 515 00:29:55.779 --> 00:29:57.019 this public health crisis. 516 00:29:58.430 --> 00:30:00.509 That was an excerpt from a recent episode of Press 517 00:30:00.549 --> 00:30:05.000 Progress Sources. Find out more at pressprogress.ca and at harbingermedianetwork.com. 518 00:30:05.519 --> 00:30:07.779 You're listening to Harbinger Showcase on your local campus and 519 00:30:07.799 --> 00:30:13.140 community radio station. Coming up next. Broadcasting since 2022, The 520 00:30:13.160 --> 00:30:16.529 Breach Show is a bi-weekly podcast featuring sharp commentary on 521 00:30:16.569 --> 00:30:19.029 politics and movements in Canada. On this highlight from a 522 00:30:19.069 --> 00:30:23.130 recent episode, investigative journalist Bruce Livesy joins host Desmond Cole 523 00:30:23.170 --> 00:30:26.589 to break down Ontario Premier Doug Ford's ongoing fall from 524 00:30:26.769 --> 00:30:27.470 political grace. 525 00:30:27.960 --> 00:30:29.039 Now, here's Desmond. 526 00:30:31.349 --> 00:30:34.809 Welcome to The Breach Show featuring sharp analysis on politics 527 00:30:34.970 --> 00:30:38.309 and social movements in Canada. I'm your host, Desmond Cole. 528 00:30:38.769 --> 00:30:42.230 Ontario Premier Doug Ford has proven himself a survivor in 529 00:30:42.250 --> 00:30:47.000 the political arena. His tenure has been marked by major scandals, corruption, 530 00:30:47.579 --> 00:30:51.960 cabinet resignations, and apologies. He has also, though, won three 531 00:30:52.039 --> 00:30:57.359 consecutive majority governments, a feat

rarely seen in modern Canadian politics. Lately, though, 532 00:30:57.400 --> 00:30:59.700 it seems that a lot of the Teflon coating Ford 533 00:30:59.720 --> 00:31:02.539 has enjoyed is starting to wear off. His popularity is 534 00:31:02.640 --> 00:31:06.119 dwindling and the media is pursuing his government with renewed vigor. 535 00:31:06.440 --> 00:31:09.700 Are we witnessing the end of the provincial Ford dynasty? 536 00:31:10.180 --> 00:31:13.289 And what damage will his administration leave behind him when 537 00:31:13.369 --> 00:31:15.730 his term of office is finally over? Joining me to 538 00:31:15.769 --> 00:31:19.710 discuss all of this is Bruce Livesey, an award-winning journalist, 539 00:31:19.950 --> 00:31:23.910 investigative reporter, and best-selling author with more than 40 years 540 00:31:23.950 --> 00:31:28.980 of experience in print. television, radio, newspapers, magazines. And Bruce 541 00:31:29.200 --> 00:31:31.240 is the author of the recently published piece for The 542 00:31:31.279 --> 00:31:35.839 Breach entitled The Rise and Potential Fall of Doug Ford. 543 00:31:36.000 --> 00:31:40.099 I would also note that Bruce is currently the federal 544 00:31:40.359 --> 00:31:43.859 Green Party candidate for the riding of beaches East York 545 00:31:44.059 --> 00:31:47.200 in the upcoming by-election here in Toronto. Welcome to the show, Bruce. 546 00:31:47.769 --> 00:31:48.390 Thanks, Desmond. 547 00:31:48.529 --> 00:31:49.109 Nice to be here. 548 00:31:49.250 --> 00:31:51.039 And as we get started, just a reminder to our 549 00:31:51.099 --> 00:31:54.380 audience to please like and subscribe if you want more 550 00:31:54.460 --> 00:31:59.660 journalism for transformation. Okay, Bruce, 2025 was a great year 551 00:31:59.700 --> 00:32:02.470 for Doug Ford. He won a third majority government after 552 00:32:02.509 --> 00:32:05.420 calling an early election. And he rebranded himself as a 553 00:32:05.440 --> 00:32:09.700 defender of Ontarians and Canadians against U.S. President Donald Trump. 554 00:32:09.880 --> 00:32:12.099 Last summer, the polls had him ranked as the most 555 00:32:12.180 --> 00:32:15.240 popular conservative in Canada. There were even rumors that he 556 00:32:15.259 --> 00:32:18.759 was positioning himself to run for prime minister. Today, though, 557 00:32:18.819 --> 00:32:22.059 he ranks as the least popular premier in the country. 558 00:32:22.819 --> 00:32:23.400 What happened? 559 00:32:23.579 --> 00:32:25.480 I mean, A, there's been a number of scandals this 560 00:32:25.519 --> 00:32:31.740 year which have been particularly problematic. One was he, earlier 561 00:32:31.789 --> 00:32:35.440 this year, it was discovered that the government had spent 562 00:32:35.519 --> 00:32:38.759 almost $ 30 million buying Ford a private jet. And then 563 00:32:38.920 --> 00:32:42.660 there was the expense scandal. Basically what was discovered was 564 00:32:42.779 --> 00:32:48.839 that at least 20 cabinet ministers

and MPPs had spent 565 00:32:49.059 --> 00:32:55.859 close to $ 120, 000 going to downtown Toronto luxury hotels because 566 00:32:55.920 --> 00:32:59.200 they couldn't be bothered to go home. One of his ministers, 567 00:32:59.220 --> 00:33:02.420 I think it was his tourism minister, who in particular, 568 00:33:02.440 --> 00:33:06.440 he spent $ 16, 000 alone over just two years doing that. 569 00:33:06.920 --> 00:33:09.720 There was the fires. Northern Ontario went up in flames 570 00:33:09.779 --> 00:33:12.869 this summer, and the fires got out of control. And 571 00:33:12.920 --> 00:33:16.710 he wasn't directly connected. If people had looked closer, they 572 00:33:16.730 --> 00:33:19.009 would have seen that there had been big cutbacks in 573 00:33:19.170 --> 00:33:22.309 wildlife fire crews over the years, arguably one of the 574 00:33:22.349 --> 00:33:24.750 reasons the fires got out of control. But I think 575 00:33:24.769 --> 00:33:28.109 the other big thing was the Billy Bishop Airport jet. 576 00:33:29.160 --> 00:33:33.799 And so the Billy Bishop Airport is the island airport 577 00:33:33.839 --> 00:33:37.720 here in downtown Toronto. And the owner of the terminal, 578 00:33:37.809 --> 00:33:41.490 which is owned by a consortium, owned by J.P. Morgan, 579 00:33:41.509 --> 00:33:46.910 wants to expand the airport to allow jets. And Ford 580 00:33:46.990 --> 00:33:51.309 seized the land which the airport sits on and was 581 00:33:51.509 --> 00:33:54.410 pushing for this expansion to go ahead, despite it being 582 00:33:54.430 --> 00:33:58.609 wildly unpopular. And the Carney government had to step in 583 00:33:58.670 --> 00:34:00.910 and say, no, we're not going to approve this. And 584 00:34:00.930 --> 00:34:04.670 then I think in the background, it's just been, he 585 00:34:04.750 --> 00:34:09.179 has passed so many laws, done so many bad things. 586 00:34:09.920 --> 00:34:14.360 He's created a very authoritarian regime and very corrupt regime. 587 00:34:14.460 --> 00:34:17.559 And I think that's finally beginning to seep into the 588 00:34:17.619 --> 00:34:18.840 subconscious of people. 589 00:34:19.139 --> 00:34:22.460 Yeah, it is easy to forget. as you mentioned in 590 00:34:22.500 --> 00:34:25.320 your piece, that Ford actually did struggle to govern right 591 00:34:25.340 --> 00:34:27.699 at the beginning of his first term. And he was 592 00:34:27.760 --> 00:34:31.800 pretty unpopular just a year into that first term of office. 593 00:34:32.239 --> 00:34:37.539 But then the COVID-19 pandemic struck, and Ford made some 594 00:34:37.699 --> 00:34:42.110 changes during that time, which seemed to revive his popularity. 595 00:34:42.130 --> 00:34:45.829 Can you talk about What changed for Ford after COVID-19 hit? 596 00:34:45.989 --> 00:34:49.309 I mean, the most successful provincial Tory governments have been 597 00:34:49.389 --> 00:34:53.030 centrist governments. They were often even lean red Tory. And 598 00:34:53.050 --> 00:34:55.010 you go back to the days of guys like, you know, 599 00:34:55.050 --> 00:34:57.920 Bill Davis as an example. You know, the Tories had 600 00:34:57.960 --> 00:35:00.260 drifted sort of more and more to the right. And 601 00:35:00.320 --> 00:35:03.639 so when Ford came in in 2018, he, you know, 602 00:35:03.679 --> 00:35:06.079 he did the usual Tory thing, which is he tried 603 00:35:06.099 --> 00:35:09.409 to impose a very harsh right-wing agenda on I mean, 604 00:35:09.429 --> 00:35:12.510 a lot of the corruption and sort of favoritism, appointing 605 00:35:12.610 --> 00:35:15.809 friends to very important posts was very blatant. So, yeah, 606 00:35:15.869 --> 00:35:18.389 he was in trouble up until COVID hit. And then, 607 00:35:18.409 --> 00:35:22.670 I mean, it's not certain why he makes this switch, 608 00:35:22.750 --> 00:35:24.449 but I think, I mean, clearly he knew he had 609 00:35:24.469 --> 00:35:26.900 to make a change. And I think he, you know, 610 00:35:26.980 --> 00:35:30.900 listened to certain advisors who said, you have to, you know, 611 00:35:31.219 --> 00:35:34.539 rule more from the center. You can't be this sort 612 00:35:34.559 --> 00:35:38.130 of right-wing crazy populist. And it worked. You know, he, 613 00:35:38.389 --> 00:35:40.769 during COVID, he listened to the doctors. When they said 614 00:35:40.809 --> 00:35:43.889 close down the province, he closed down the province. You know, 615 00:35:43.929 --> 00:35:46.219 when the anti-vax, or sort of, I think it was 616 00:35:46.239 --> 00:35:50.880 the anti-vaxxers, those who were opposed to restrictions, you know, 617 00:35:50.900 --> 00:35:55.340 marched on Ottawa. You know, he didn't, unlike Pierre Polyev, who's, 618 00:35:55.519 --> 00:35:58.739 you know, embraced them, Ford did not. He didn't want 619 00:35:58.760 --> 00:36:01.639 anything to do with them. He'd been sort of lambasting 620 00:36:02.059 --> 00:36:05.219 the Trudeau government, and he stopped doing that. They began 621 00:36:05.280 --> 00:36:08.670 working together. You know, and he began to see he 622 00:36:08.690 --> 00:36:11.570 can get money out of the federal government if they 623 00:36:11.590 --> 00:36:14.719 cooperate in certain projects, you know, certain things like infrastructure 624 00:36:14.739 --> 00:36:17.079 and whatnot. I mean, the suspicion and what I was 625 00:36:17.159 --> 00:36:19.940 told was there was a pollster, a guy called Nick Kuvalis, 626 00:36:19.960 --> 00:36:23.840 who's a very controversial guy on the right wing, that 627 00:36:24.070 --> 00:36:28.849 he was doing effective polling and telling Ford, you can't, 628 00:36:28.889 --> 00:36:31.210 you know, this is going to be unpopular, this will 629 00:36:31.230 --> 00:36:34.159 be popular. And What I was told was that he 630 00:36:34.199 --> 00:36:37.130 began to listen to Kuvalas. So I think a lot 631 00:36:37.170 --> 00:36:39.909 of his decisions, and one of the things I write 632 00:36:39.949 --> 00:36:43.769

about was the Greenbelt scandal. His efforts to open it 633 00:36:43.829 --> 00:36:48.130 up to development was wildly unpopular. He backed off. So 634 00:36:48.849 --> 00:36:54.190 he does have a history of when he does damage, 635 00:36:55.150 --> 00:36:59.659 he does stupid things. And then when they appear to 636 00:36:59.699 --> 00:37:03.780 be wildly unpopular, he will back off. But now, ironically, 637 00:37:03.920 --> 00:37:08.500 with the airport, he did not. He still stands by it. 638 00:37:08.539 --> 00:37:10.619 Like there was a poll that the federal government was 639 00:37:10.679 --> 00:37:14.139 forced to do of Toronto residents and their attitudes toward 640 00:37:14.159 --> 00:37:18.070 the airport, and 87% said they didn't want it. And 641 00:37:18.150 --> 00:37:22.489 Ford still said, I don't care. I want this airport expansion. 642 00:37:22.590 --> 00:37:26.329 So he might, I think he's, He might be losing 643 00:37:26.369 --> 00:37:29.050 his touch. I think he's going back to possibly making 644 00:37:29.070 --> 00:37:32.110 the mistakes he did in the first part of his 645 00:37:32.130 --> 00:37:32.710 first term. 646 00:37:32.969 --> 00:37:36.409 Interestingly, though, something has happened in the last couple of 647 00:37:36.489 --> 00:37:40.980 days that kind of makes me think of how skilled 648 00:37:41.019 --> 00:37:45.079 he is at sometimes reviving himself after he's kind of 649 00:37:45.119 --> 00:37:49.920 stepped in it and holding on to popularity. Obviously, this 650 00:37:50.099 --> 00:37:53.139 ongoing trade war with the United States and Donald Trump 651 00:37:53.980 --> 00:37:57.420 has implicated Ford a lot. You know, he recently got 652 00:37:57.460 --> 00:37:58.739 into a big war of words. 653 00:37:58.539 --> 00:37:59.340 With Donald Trump. 654 00:38:00.300 --> 00:38:04.010 Trump insulted him saying that he wasn't as intelligent as 655 00:38:04.050 --> 00:38:06.769 his late brother, that he was a flunky of the 656 00:38:06.789 --> 00:38:10.510 prime minister. And Doug Ford hit back pretty hard as well, 657 00:38:10.550 --> 00:38:15.090 talking about Trump's bankruptcies. He got really personal. And then 658 00:38:15.170 --> 00:38:17.849 the following day he comes out and he says, you know, 659 00:38:17.869 --> 00:38:22.849 I got a It's time to pull back and to 660 00:38:22.909 --> 00:38:25.199 kind of go back to the negotiating table and make 661 00:38:25.239 --> 00:38:28.980 a deal. And sometimes when I see him behaving like this, Bruce, 662 00:38:29.079 --> 00:38:32.579 I think this is really relatable to people. The way 663 00:38:32.599 --> 00:38:34.639 that he communicates, the way that he wears his anger 664 00:38:34.699 --> 00:38:37.050 on his sleeve. How much do you think his communication 665 00:38:37.070 --> 00:38:40.369 style has actually allowed him to surf the waves of 666 00:38:40.570 --> 00:38:42.309 this unpopularity at times? 667 00:38:42.489 --> 00:38:45.650 I think it has. It's definitely

helped him. And this 668 00:38:45.730 --> 00:38:48.730 is a good example. He's good at taking certain issues 669 00:38:48.750 --> 00:38:51.730 that come along and jumping on them. I mean, there's 670 00:38:51.750 --> 00:38:54.809 hypocrisy in this, too, because it was also announced that 671 00:38:55.710 --> 00:38:59.110 something like over 400 workers with the Workers' Compensation Board 672 00:38:59.320 --> 00:39:01.760 are being laid off in northern Ontario and their jobs 673 00:39:01.820 --> 00:39:04.860 contracted out to American companies. So, I mean, this is 674 00:39:04.900 --> 00:39:10.219 classic Ford hypocrisy. He will champion on, you know, nationalism 675 00:39:10.280 --> 00:39:14.219 and Canadian politics. products and tariffs and all of this 676 00:39:14.320 --> 00:39:18.420 like the airport the the billy bishop airport expansion i 677 00:39:18.440 --> 00:39:21.170 mean he's doing the bidding of an american bank this 678 00:39:21.230 --> 00:39:23.230 is always the sort of the annoying thing about guys 679 00:39:23.250 --> 00:39:28.010 like ford they are very skilled and adept at sort 680 00:39:28.050 --> 00:39:31.559 of coming across as populist. I mean, Trump's the same, right? 681 00:39:32.039 --> 00:39:37.300 Saying certain key words, taking certain key positions, and people 682 00:39:37.340 --> 00:39:39.000 get caught up in it. Then they don't look at 683 00:39:39.059 --> 00:39:41.099 the minutia. They don't look at the fine print. They 684 00:39:41.139 --> 00:39:45.400 don't look at his track record. And, you know, Ford's 685 00:39:45.460 --> 00:39:46.480 track record is terrible. 686 00:39:46.780 --> 00:39:48.869 He's a terrible.... 687 00:39:50.070 --> 00:39:50.659 Premier. 688 00:39:50.800 --> 00:39:54.880 He is one of the worst, and he's done incalculable 689 00:39:54.940 --> 00:39:59.380 damage to this province, but he's very good at selling 690 00:39:59.420 --> 00:40:02.639 himself as this common guy, this guy you could go 691 00:40:02.659 --> 00:40:04.840 out and have a beer with and have a smoke with. 692 00:40:05.079 --> 00:40:08.110 Your piece documents the role that corporate lobbying has played 693 00:40:08.179 --> 00:40:13.889 throughout Ford's premiership. Who is it specifically who has been 694 00:40:13.949 --> 00:40:17.630 lobbying this government, and how do we know that their efforts... 695 00:40:18.239 --> 00:40:21.059 successfully influenced Doug Ford and his cabinet. 696 00:40:21.460 --> 00:40:26.320 So basically he has set up a system of corruption. 697 00:40:26.519 --> 00:40:28.739 You can argue maybe it's legal corruption, it's depending on 698 00:40:28.760 --> 00:40:32.059 who you talk to. And the system is very straightforward. 699 00:40:32.139 --> 00:40:37.090 If you as a company want something from the government, 700 00:40:37.110 --> 00:40:39.489 whether it's a contract or a law that's going to 701 00:40:39.530 --> 00:40:42.929 benefit you or your industry, you donate to the Ontario 702 00:40:43.050 --> 00:40:47.090 Progressive Conservative Party, the Tory party, And then you hire 703 00:40:47.289 --> 00:40:50.829 one of the lobbyists who works, who's very close to Ford, 704 00:40:50.869 --> 00:40:53.550 who used to work for Ford, or still works for Ford. 705 00:40:54.230 --> 00:40:57.349 I mean, the crazy thing is that, you know, a 706 00:40:57.429 --> 00:41:02.340 couple of the most powerful lobbyists, one in particular, run 707 00:41:02.420 --> 00:41:05.480 his election campaigns and still give him advice. 708 00:41:05.500 --> 00:41:07.619 That would be Corey Tanik, I think. 709 00:41:07.579 --> 00:41:08.179 You're bringing up. 710 00:41:08.179 --> 00:41:12.099 That's Corey Tanik and a guy called Chris Froggart. They're 711 00:41:12.139 --> 00:41:16.309 giving Ford advice. They're running his campaigns. People hire them, 712 00:41:16.530 --> 00:41:21.530 and then they get contracts for these companies. Now, the 713 00:41:21.610 --> 00:41:25.570 sector of the economy that Ford has bent over backwards 714 00:41:25.610 --> 00:41:31.219 to help is the development industry. Going back many, many decades, 715 00:41:31.340 --> 00:41:34.780 he has been associated with that industry. He's very friendly 716 00:41:34.840 --> 00:41:38.639 to the developers, and he does everything possible to give 717 00:41:38.659 --> 00:41:41.829 them what they want. And they want land. 718 00:41:42.230 --> 00:41:42.650 They want laws that. 719 00:41:45.150 --> 00:41:49.170 Allow them to build without environmental assessments, without having to 720 00:41:49.250 --> 00:41:56.269 pay local municipalities development fees. And that has been the 721 00:41:56.329 --> 00:42:00.090 agenda really from the beginning, is to do everything possible 722 00:42:00.769 --> 00:42:05.030 to help developers build wherever they want without any public 723 00:42:05.130 --> 00:42:06.230 input whatsoever. 724 00:42:06.429 --> 00:42:08.150 And just as a follow-up to that, you mentioned the 725 00:42:08.190 --> 00:42:10.690 Greenbelt earlier. That was kind of the soul of the 726 00:42:10.730 --> 00:42:14.639 Greenbelt scandal was Doug Ford opening up that he promised 727 00:42:14.920 --> 00:42:17.800 in 2018 he would never open up, and doing so 728 00:42:17.889 --> 00:42:21.289 to the advantage of certain developers whose property values stood 729 00:42:21.309 --> 00:42:24.789 to increase in the billions because they were going to 730 00:42:25.110 --> 00:42:28.730 get to develop properties on or adjacent to this now 731 00:42:28.849 --> 00:42:31.050 opened up Greenbelt land. And I thought it was really 732 00:42:31.150 --> 00:42:34.210 interesting in your piece how you documented that despite that being, 733 00:42:34.230 --> 00:42:37.940 I think, arguably the biggest scandal of Doug Ford's time 734 00:42:37.960 --> 00:42:41.739 in office, he's still doing things like that now after 735 00:42:42.219 --> 00:42:48.230 being caught apologizing and still being under RCMP active

investigation. 736 00:42:48.710 --> 00:42:48.929 Yeah. 737 00:42:49.030 --> 00:42:52.550 I mean, it hasn't stopped. I mean, basically because the 738 00:42:52.570 --> 00:42:57.139 Greenbelt was so, it's such a large amount of land. 739 00:42:57.219 --> 00:43:00.039 It had such an impact. And by the way, it 740 00:43:00.139 --> 00:43:07.619 took successive conservative NDP liberal governments to create the framework 741 00:43:07.699 --> 00:43:09.880 and put it into place. So this was not something 742 00:43:09.900 --> 00:43:14.280 that Tories were necessarily opposed to. But I mean, Ford, 743 00:43:14.320 --> 00:43:18.650 going back to 2018, he was caught on camera when 744 00:43:18.670 --> 00:43:21.389 he was campaigning for the Tory leadership. You know, basically 745 00:43:21.429 --> 00:43:25.010 saying he wanted to open up a chunk of the 746 00:43:25.050 --> 00:43:27.679 Greenbelt and that he had spoken to developers that this 747 00:43:27.719 --> 00:43:30.980 was their idea, but he liked it. And then again, 748 00:43:31.199 --> 00:43:34.059 there was backlash. So he backed off and said, oh, 749 00:43:34.079 --> 00:43:37.329 he wouldn't touch the Greenbelt. But then he has He 750 00:43:37.369 --> 00:43:40.269 did everything possible to make that happen. But yeah, since, 751 00:43:40.670 --> 00:43:44.889 despite having to back off that in 2023, there's been 752 00:43:44.969 --> 00:43:50.599 two highways, very unnecessary highways, by the way, that these 753 00:43:50.699 --> 00:43:55.159 development companies want built that cross their land. And again, 754 00:43:55.179 --> 00:43:59.530 it was the same pattern. Tory-connected lobbyists were hired. They 755 00:43:59.590 --> 00:44:03.570 pressed the government for the highways. The highways are being built. 756 00:44:03.789 --> 00:44:05.929 I didn't put this in my story, but the cabinet 757 00:44:05.969 --> 00:44:11.599 minister who had to resign because he'd taken $ 16, 000 of 758 00:44:11.659 --> 00:44:15.619 public money to spend the night, even though he lived very... 759 00:44:15.840 --> 00:44:19.019 quite close to the legislature, and was staying in downtown 760 00:44:19.059 --> 00:44:22.019 Toronto hotels, and then I think he also took tens 761 00:44:22.059 --> 00:44:25.239 of thousands from his riding association to pay for luxuries. 762 00:44:25.780 --> 00:44:29.719 His father owns land that one of these highways was 763 00:44:29.760 --> 00:44:32.840 going to cross, or, you know, and so there was, again, 764 00:44:32.889 --> 00:44:37.989 this conflict of interest, because highways can create enormous financial 765 00:44:38.050 --> 00:44:40.949 benefit to those who own land along them, right? They 766 00:44:40.969 --> 00:44:43.889 can develop, you know, open them up to development, they 767 00:44:43.909 --> 00:44:46.280 can build shopping centres on them, all. 768 00:44:46.159 --> 00:44:46.800 Sorts of stuff. 769 00:44:47.420 --> 00:44:50.070 So he has continued the practice. I mean, he shut 770 00:44:50.110 --> 00:44:55.710 down the Ontario Science Centre on a completely BS reason. 771 00:44:55.989 --> 00:44:57.030 This is a beloved. 772 00:44:58.170 --> 00:45:00.429 There's a highlight from a recent episode of The Breach Show. 773 00:45:00.849 --> 00:45:05.489 Find it at breachmedia.ca and harbingermedianetwork.com or wherever you get 774 00:45:05.570 --> 00:45:08.130 your podcasts. You're listening to Harbinger Showcase on your local 775 00:45:08.190 --> 00:45:11.789 campus and community radio station. I'm Harbinger Director Andre Goulet 776 00:45:12.030 --> 00:45:21.369 in Montreal. And finally, Broadcasting since 2014, Vancouver-based Seriously Wrong 777 00:45:21.510 --> 00:45:25.300 is a bi-weekly utopian leftist comedy podcast featuring co-hosts Aaron 778 00:45:25.320 --> 00:45:28.880 and Sean and guests in conversations exploring topics like rent strikes, 779 00:45:28.940 --> 00:45:32.239 the justice system, airplane food, and more, like on this 780 00:45:32.360 --> 00:45:36.260 excerpt from a recent episode, pontificating on humanity's favorite furry 781 00:45:36.400 --> 00:45:41.889 four-pod companions, pets. Now, here's the show. Seriously Wrong. 782 00:45:43.840 --> 00:45:47.260 Hey, hello, everyone, and welcome back to the Seriously Wrong podcast. 783 00:45:47.280 --> 00:45:50.340 The Seriously Pets podcast is the only pod... It's Canada's 784 00:45:50.380 --> 00:45:54.860 longest-running comedy podcast, independent comedy podcast, and it's also a 785 00:45:54.909 --> 00:45:59.230 show where we always talk about our pets, but this 786 00:45:59.269 --> 00:46:01.550 week we're going to talk about our pets even more. 787 00:46:01.570 --> 00:46:06.550 It's a podcast about the fine furry friends that... I 788 00:46:06.590 --> 00:46:07.610 guess not all pets. 789 00:46:07.449 --> 00:46:10.059 Are furry, but We don't always talk about our pets. 790 00:46:10.099 --> 00:46:11.099 I don't know why I said that. 791 00:46:11.119 --> 00:46:11.659 I don't know. 792 00:46:11.699 --> 00:46:14.139 We do lie a lot at the top of the podcast. 793 00:46:14.199 --> 00:46:16.699 Maybe we should come clean about that. You know, always saying, oh, 794 00:46:17.000 --> 00:46:20.179 this is a podcast about this, even though that's just 795 00:46:20.380 --> 00:46:24.119 one episode or sometimes even not even what the episode's about. 796 00:46:24.679 --> 00:46:25.840 But this one is about pets. 797 00:46:26.449 --> 00:46:26.800 Yeah. 798 00:46:27.139 --> 00:46:28.829 We give ourselves a lot of permission to lie at 799 00:46:28.849 --> 00:46:32.309 the top and then we get into trust building after that. 800 00:46:35.610 --> 00:46:38.760 I don't have any pets. Right now, I have had 801 00:46:38.800 --> 00:46:43.510 pets in my life over the years, including dogs, cats, birds. 802 00:46:44.119 --> 00:46:48.150 I used to have rats. I used to have fish. Really? 803 00:46:49.389 --> 00:46:51.210 I didn't know you've had so many pets. 804 00:46:51.769

--> 00:46:56.989 Yeah, it's been a long and storied pet companion journey 805 00:46:57.050 --> 00:46:59.690 for me. But in the modern day, I don't have any, 806 00:46:59.769 --> 00:47:02.809 nor do I have any intent to. Although I did 807 00:47:02.849 --> 00:47:05.489 talk to my partner about getting a dog for a while. 808 00:47:05.550 --> 00:47:08.369 I'm glad that we didn't. Not just because we have 809 00:47:08.489 --> 00:47:14.619 two kids now, which is a significant undertaking, but I'm 810 00:47:14.659 --> 00:47:15.400 glad that we don't have pets. 811 00:47:15.780 --> 00:47:18.500 Yeah, maybe when the kids are older and they can 812 00:47:19.059 --> 00:47:22.139 help take care of the pets rather than being an 813 00:47:22.199 --> 00:47:25.579 additional pet burden. I don't know, just brainstorming. 814 00:47:25.639 --> 00:47:28.280 Get that farmhand dynamic with the kids. 815 00:47:28.699 --> 00:47:29.389 Yeah, yeah. 816 00:47:29.409 --> 00:47:31.469 Get that kibble out. It's your responsibility. 817 00:47:31.489 --> 00:47:34.250 Someone's got to take the pet for a walk. You're 818 00:47:34.329 --> 00:47:35.210 old enough now. 819 00:47:35.550 --> 00:47:38.340 Nine-year-old baby King Kong. Did I ever share the baby 820 00:47:38.380 --> 00:47:40.300 King Kong story on the podcast? Do you know? 821 00:47:40.320 --> 00:47:41.219 I don't think so. 822 00:47:41.480 --> 00:47:42.079 For a minute. 823 00:47:42.219 --> 00:47:42.780 It's over now. 824 00:47:42.820 --> 00:47:46.619 But when my toddler was two, she insisted on being 825 00:47:46.659 --> 00:47:48.800 called baby King Kong for some period of time. 826 00:47:50.099 --> 00:47:54.260 Well, it's very powerful. I can see why embodying King 827 00:47:54.300 --> 00:47:57.420 Kong would be... Has she ever seen King Kong or 828 00:47:57.440 --> 00:48:01.190 a cartoon with a King Kong in it? 829 00:48:01.469 --> 00:48:01.989 No, yeah. 830 00:48:02.150 --> 00:48:05.699 I'm not sure. I think she saw... She saw part 831 00:48:05.980 --> 00:48:12.170 of the newer King Kong movie on YouTube. I showed 832 00:48:12.210 --> 00:48:14.369 it to her because she was really afraid of Gollum, 833 00:48:14.409 --> 00:48:16.989 which her mother taught her about for some reason when 834 00:48:17.010 --> 00:48:20.340 I wasn't around. She taught her about the existence of Gollum, 835 00:48:20.739 --> 00:48:22.699 and she was really afraid of Gollum. And I was 836 00:48:22.739 --> 00:48:25.639 trying to show her footage of Andy Serkis doing motion 837 00:48:25.760 --> 00:48:30.030 capture and stuff. It was an ill-fated... attempt to make 838 00:48:30.050 --> 00:48:32.210 her not afraid of Gollum and being like, oh, Gollum's 839 00:48:32.250 --> 00:48:34.710 not real. It's actually this actor. He also played the 840 00:48:34.730 --> 00:48:37.130 monkey King Kong. And I think that's where she got 841 00:48:37.170 --> 00:48:41.320 King Kong from. But the real solution to the Gollum 842 00:48:41.340 --> 00:48:45.139 thing was eventually someone sent me an AI video of 843 00:48:46.079 --> 00:48:48.860 the Hey Ya music video where everyone had been replaced 844 00:48:48.900 --> 00:48:52.500 with Gollum and it was singing in Gollum's voice. And 845 00:48:52.699 --> 00:48:55.110 it was Gollum singing Hey Ya. And I showed that 846 00:48:55.170 --> 00:48:58.929 to her And then she was like, oh, Gollum's nice. 847 00:48:59.800 --> 00:49:00.019 Right. 848 00:49:00.059 --> 00:49:01.139 And I was like, yeah, he's nice. 849 00:49:01.800 --> 00:49:03.860 You don't have to make Gollum not real. You just 850 00:49:03.900 --> 00:49:07.840 have to make Gollum nice. He sings songs. He dances. 851 00:49:07.920 --> 00:49:09.119 He claps. 852 00:49:09.699 --> 00:49:09.860 Yeah. 853 00:49:09.880 --> 00:49:11.300 And I don't know what you saw with your mother, 854 00:49:11.340 --> 00:49:13.650 but Gollum was on a journey, right? And by the end, 855 00:49:13.690 --> 00:49:15.190 he was singing Hey Ya for everyone. 856 00:49:15.210 --> 00:49:19.090 This is the very end of Lord of the Rings. 857 00:49:19.130 --> 00:49:19.849 Yeah. 858 00:49:20.139 --> 00:49:21.940 No, she still thinks to this day. 859 00:49:21.960 --> 00:49:23.699 This is like a year ago. And she brought it 860 00:49:23.739 --> 00:49:25.500 up to me this week of being like, can I 861 00:49:25.500 --> 00:49:28.719 see that video? Because I played Hey Ya on the speakers. 862 00:49:28.760 --> 00:49:29.909 And she's like, I want to see that video of 863 00:49:29.949 --> 00:49:32.949 Gollum again, dad. And I was like, sure. Yeah, I 864 00:49:32.989 --> 00:49:36.400 found it. And Yeah, Gollum's nice. He sings hey-ya at 865 00:49:36.440 --> 00:49:39.989 the end. And sure, there's a few scary moments along 866 00:49:40.010 --> 00:49:41.269 the way, but he's a nice guy. 867 00:49:41.510 --> 00:49:45.349 That's great. Yeah, just overwrite the scary memories with better ones. 868 00:49:46.570 --> 00:49:50.329 In terms of pets, I never had pets growing up, 869 00:49:50.969 --> 00:49:53.869 and I haven't had pets for almost any of my life. 870 00:49:54.570 --> 00:49:58.469 But I did have pet bunnies growing. When I lived 871 00:49:58.510 --> 00:50:01.159 with some of my friends in Edmonton, right after I 872 00:50:01.219 --> 00:50:06.329 graduated high school, we moved into a place together and 873 00:50:06.369 --> 00:50:09.730 we had two pet bunnies that I didn't really do 874 00:50:09.789 --> 00:50:12.820 most of the taking care of. But I did get 875 00:50:12.860 --> 00:50:16.880 to pet the bunnies. Occasionally they would sit on your lap. 876 00:50:17.000 --> 00:50:20.800 One of them was more inclined to lap sitting than 877 00:50:20.840 --> 00:50:24.099 the other. And you could feed them grapes. And they 878 00:50:24.119 --> 00:50:28.170 really liked grapes and didn't like carrots. Not living up 879 00:50:28.230 --> 00:50:29.650 to bunny stereotypes. 880 00:50:29.929 --> 00:50:33.210 The idea that rabbits eat carrots comes

from Bugs Bunny 881 00:50:33.349 --> 00:50:36.849 eating a carrot. And Bugs Bunny eating a carrot was 882 00:50:37.530 --> 00:50:42.119 an homage to an old film. he was doing his 883 00:50:42.719 --> 00:50:48.199 such-and-such old-timey actor impression. And then that became a cultural 884 00:50:49.019 --> 00:50:52.199 thing that outlasted the original impression. 885 00:50:52.820 --> 00:50:57.510 And then nearly a century later, some 20-year-olds in Edmonton, 886 00:50:57.570 --> 00:51:01.090 Canada are like, bunnies like carrots, right? Let's put it 887 00:51:01.130 --> 00:51:03.269 in front of their face. And the Bunny would always 888 00:51:03.309 --> 00:51:06.340 kind of just sniff it and maybe take a tiny 889 00:51:06.440 --> 00:51:08.880 nibble and then just be like, nah, I'll have some 890 00:51:08.900 --> 00:51:12.780 of this dry kibble or this hay you got going here. 891 00:51:12.800 --> 00:51:17.360 That looks good. Lettuce? Sure. Love lettuce. Not carrots. Not 892 00:51:17.409 --> 00:51:17.719 a fan. 893 00:51:17.739 --> 00:51:20.170 This also, I think we mentioned on the show before too, 894 00:51:20.269 --> 00:51:24.309 Nimrod got popularized as an insult by Bugs Bunny, but 895 00:51:24.329 --> 00:51:27.460 it was like an ironic... thing. It was like saying, oh, 896 00:51:27.679 --> 00:51:31.719 nice going Einstein or whatever, but everyone forgot who Nimrod 897 00:51:31.780 --> 00:51:34.360 actually was. And then it became a synonym for moron 898 00:51:35.059 --> 00:51:39.369 because the cultural capital of Bugs Bunny overwrote, I think 899 00:51:39.409 --> 00:51:41.170 it's the Bible, right? Nimrod. 900 00:51:42.789 --> 00:51:43.869 Yeah, I think that's what it was. 901 00:51:43.949 --> 00:51:44.469 I forget. 902 00:51:44.489 --> 00:51:48.429 I remember this, but I forget the detail. But yeah. 903 00:51:48.789 --> 00:51:51.789 Nimrod is a biblical figure mentioned in the book of Genesis. 904 00:51:51.929 --> 00:51:54.659 He was a symbol of defiance against God. Just look 905 00:51:54.699 --> 00:51:55.420 that up real quick. 906 00:51:55.719 --> 00:51:57.440 I liked having a bunny. It was really sad when 907 00:51:57.480 --> 00:52:00.760 the bunny died, though. One of them died, like, young 908 00:52:01.000 --> 00:52:03.880 for bunnies. I think after, like, a year and a 909 00:52:03.940 --> 00:52:08.099 half or two years or something. It was rough. Rough 910 00:52:08.119 --> 00:52:10.900 for all of us there in the house. 911 00:52:11.860 --> 00:52:17.969 My sister has bunnies. My younger sister, who's in her 912 00:52:18.510 --> 00:52:20.010 20s now, she actually just had twins. And she had 913 00:52:20.090 --> 00:52:23.670 two bunnies. And I remember they stunk. How do your 914 00:52:23.690 --> 00:52:24.289 bunnies smell? 915 00:52:25.090 --> 00:52:27.409 I don't know if I would say stunk. There was 916 00:52:27.449 --> 00:52:31.619 definitely a bunny smell. I feel like most animals have 917 00:52:31.780 --> 00:52:35.340 their own

kind of smell, and bunnies have their smell. 918 00:52:35.400 --> 00:52:38.659 But I didn't conceptualize of it as a stink, more 919 00:52:38.699 --> 00:52:42.099 just a sort of bunny musk, I guess. 920 00:52:42.980 --> 00:52:46.909 Yeah, I remember, because all my family, they're all like, 921 00:52:47.730 --> 00:52:51.159 you know, animal freaks. And I remember my mom coming 922 00:52:51.199 --> 00:52:53.980 over one time for dinner and just being like complaining 923 00:52:54.199 --> 00:52:57.099 about my sister getting a second bunny. She's like, why 924 00:52:57.119 --> 00:52:59.860 is she getting a second bunny? This is crazy. And 925 00:52:59.900 --> 00:53:02.579 it's like, wow. She learned it. She learned it at home. 926 00:53:03.219 --> 00:53:07.269 You've got four dogs right now and two cats. Anyways. 927 00:53:07.630 --> 00:53:07.829 Oh, yeah. 928 00:53:07.869 --> 00:53:10.829 That's such the opposite of my parents. I asked my 929 00:53:10.889 --> 00:53:13.730 parents once for a dog because my cousin had a 930 00:53:13.769 --> 00:53:16.349 dog and I thought it was cute and they were 931 00:53:16.369 --> 00:53:20.380 not into the idea. uh kind of like you know 932 00:53:20.420 --> 00:53:22.840 nobody wants to clean up after all that i don't 933 00:53:22.860 --> 00:53:25.110 know i probably could have pushed for it but i 934 00:53:25.170 --> 00:53:29.469 never really did but yeah i remember being sad about 935 00:53:29.530 --> 00:53:31.150 it as a kid because i was like oh i 936 00:53:31.190 --> 00:53:34.929 want a little a little puppy to hug and stuff. 937 00:53:35.309 --> 00:53:38.989 Yeah that's the dream right it's a little cute little 938 00:53:39.780 --> 00:53:42.280 forever puppy to hug and you never have to clean 939 00:53:42.360 --> 00:53:45.539 up it's rank shit and yeah you can still leave 940 00:53:45.559 --> 00:53:47.340 the house whenever you want instead of having to come 941 00:53:47.380 --> 00:53:50.320 back every 10 minutes and I just had a memory 942 00:53:50.400 --> 00:53:52.639 come up of when I was a kid, we had 943 00:53:53.440 --> 00:53:58.449 two dogs. There was Bailey, who was a black lab. 944 00:53:58.750 --> 00:54:03.050 And then there was a German shepherd, Hugo, that we 945 00:54:03.130 --> 00:54:07.110 adopted from my grandparents who had too many dogs. And 946 00:54:07.130 --> 00:54:11.550 they were moving back to Belize because they're Mennonites and 947 00:54:11.590 --> 00:54:15.050 their weird caste system there. We could talk about some 948 00:54:15.070 --> 00:54:17.940 other time, but step family, by the way. I don't 949 00:54:17.980 --> 00:54:23.900 actually have Belizean heritage. Hugo, as I remembered Hugo's name, 950 00:54:23.940 --> 00:54:27.179 I just remembered this really vivid memory of sitting by 951 00:54:27.219 --> 00:54:30.969 the back door and Hugo's dog dick is slipping out 952 00:54:31.010 --> 00:54:35.769 of its sheath like a big pink lipstick. And me 953 00:54:35.789 --> 00:54:40.949 being like, oh, Jesus Christ, that little bright pink frankfurter 954 00:54:40.969 --> 00:54:44.230 is freaking me out. But the actual memory that I 955 00:54:44.269 --> 00:54:47.429 was getting to this on was weaponized incompetence. That was 956 00:54:47.469 --> 00:54:50.639 the first time I learned about the pro-life skill of 957 00:54:50.719 --> 00:54:57.059 weaponized incompetence, where people, especially men, are like, oh, I 958 00:54:57.079 --> 00:54:59.119 don't know how to clean the dishes as good as you, 959 00:54:59.800 --> 00:55:00.420 as a way of not doing it. 960 00:55:00.420 --> 00:55:02.659 You don't know how to pick up the dog's poop. Like, 961 00:55:02.780 --> 00:55:05.840 I tried, and it just doesn't, I don't know, you'll 962 00:55:05.860 --> 00:55:07.960 have to do it. I can't get it figured out 963 00:55:08.000 --> 00:55:08.599 for some reason. 964 00:55:09.539 --> 00:55:13.519 Their shit was so rank. These dogs' shit was so rank. 965 00:55:13.579 --> 00:55:16.599 I was like 13 or 14. I was actually literally 966 00:55:16.699 --> 00:55:19.010 vomiting in the backyard trying to pick it up. 967 00:55:19.010 --> 00:55:20.570 Oh yeah, I remember you talking about this once. 968 00:55:20.929 --> 00:55:21.190 Yeah. 969 00:55:21.889 --> 00:55:26.750 But, you know, fun, nice dogs. Hugo, I think, eventually 970 00:55:26.769 --> 00:55:29.989 went back to his home family, but we had him 971 00:55:30.030 --> 00:55:32.380 for a couple years. And Bailey was like the family 972 00:55:32.420 --> 00:55:37.460 dog for forever. And when Bailey eventually, I remember getting 973 00:55:37.800 --> 00:55:40.179 a call from, I was out shopping. I got a 974 00:55:40.179 --> 00:55:42.300 call from my mom and she was just devastated that 975 00:55:42.340 --> 00:55:46.030 Bailey had died. She was like 16 or 17. She 976 00:55:46.050 --> 00:55:48.969 was a big dog and she'd been fading for a while. 977 00:55:49.389 --> 00:55:51.030 And she was crying where I was like, oh man, 978 00:55:51.090 --> 00:55:56.409 I think there's something like seriously, seriously wrong. Everybody drink. 979 00:55:56.449 --> 00:56:00.349 We said something seriously wrong. My sister got hit by 980 00:56:00.369 --> 00:56:02.230 a car or something. And it was, it was actually 981 00:56:02.250 --> 00:56:06.099 just that the old dog that was, this makes me 982 00:56:06.119 --> 00:56:08.920 sound like sociopathic or something, but I was like, oh, 983 00:56:08.940 --> 00:56:11.329 thank God. It's just the old dog that's clearly due 984 00:56:11.369 --> 00:56:14.150 to die has died. And then she was like, do 985 00:56:14.190 --> 00:56:18.969 you want to come and see the body before we 986 00:56:19.030 --> 00:56:23.300 cremate her? And I was like, what the f * 987 00:56:23.230 --> 00:56:23.300 * k? 988 00:56:24.059 --> 00:56:27.420 Different people grieve differently. I do not grieve by looking 989 00:56:27.480 --> 00:56:28.039 at corpses. 990 00:56:28.619 --> 00:56:31.119 And I felt bad, too, because I think I literally said, 991 00:56:31.159 --> 00:56:32.340 what the f * * * er, or something in 992 00:56:32.400 --> 00:56:33.079 that territory. 993 00:56:36.659 --> 00:56:43.199 It was a highlight from a new episode of Seriously Wrong. 994 00:56:43.820 --> 00:56:47.190 Find new episodes of the internationally acclaimed utopian leftist comedy 995 00:56:47.230 --> 00:56:52.789 show at seriouslywrong.com, at harbingermedianetwork.com, or wherever you get your podcasts. 996 00:56:55.219 --> 00:56:57.309 You've been listening to Harbinger Showcase on your local campus 997 00:56:57.349 --> 00:57:00.050 and community radio station. This episode has been brought to 998 00:57:00.070 --> 00:57:03.010 you by the Alberta Advantage. Find more from Calgary's number 999 00:57:03.090 --> 00:57:07.860 one podcast at albertaadvantagepod.com. And by Pop Montreal. See the 1000 00:57:07.889 --> 00:57:10.719 full Pop Symposium scheduled panels and the rest of Pop 1001 00:57:10.739 --> 00:57:14.960 Montreal's 25th anniversary lineup at popmontreal.com. We'll be back with 1002 00:57:15.000 --> 00:57:17.860 a new episode next week. Until then, I'm Harbinger Director 1003 00:57:17.920 --> 00:57:19.059 Andre Goulet in Montreal. 1004 00:57:19.489 --> 00:57:20.139 Now back to your 1005 00:57:20.159 --> 00:57:23.150 Regularly scheduled community radio station programming.