התמלול המלא של Leroy

Speaker 9: I'll be right back. 00:07:34 Speaker 2: Don asked that we not roll audio until after they'd had a chance to meet. 00:07:39 Speaker 6: I think that's him. I think I think he's behind me. This guy's arms crossed. I'm gonna turn turn my back so I'm sweet can meet with Lauren. I'm glad Lauren's meeting with him first. He he looks, he looks tense. 00:07:59 Speaker 1: Hm. 00:08:03 Speaker 10: I like the location he picked. 00:08:10 Speaker 2: I gestured for Melissa to come over, and she had to cross this metal plank to get back from where she was standing on the water to me. And Melissa is shaking so hard that the entire thing is trembling as she's walking because she's so nervous. And she walks up to Don and without saying anything, he opens up his arms and they embrace, and Melissa just starts sobbing. It was one of the most beautiful moments I think I've gotten to witness as a producer. There was such a vulnerability and strength on both side of that hug, and it's as if it ripped open a scab on Melissa's soul. She just sobbed. 00:09:11 Speaker 4: God. It was. 00:09:16 Speaker 8: When he hugged me and just stretched his arms and he hugged me, it felt like the wash of forgiveness purified my heart, Like it just melted away my anxiety, an anxiety that was interwoven in my fibers of my being. Like I didn't realize how tense I've been walking my life until he hugged me. And it was like this relaxation and solace that I've never felt before. And it was something that I thought I could seek in religion and find that solace through a forgiveness of a loving God. And to say, you know, but when Dawn hugged me, it was like, all as well, the past is washed away and I'm free. I'm forgiven and free to walk my life as I need to walk. 00:10:18 Speaker 3: That was a lot. 00:10:19 Speaker 11: Yeah, if you're gonna do it, you gotta do it right or don't do it at all. 00:10:23 Speaker 10: Yeah. 00:10:24 Speaker 12: And it's got to. 00:10:24 Speaker 11: Come out girl, Sorry, And it's gonna be the hardest. 00:10:29 Speaker 12: Yeah, because this whole time. 00:10:31 Speaker 11: I can only imagine what your thoughts are sitting back. 00:10:34 Speaker 12: Like I said, I've put. 00:10:35 Speaker 11: Myself in your shoes and I can't imagine. 00:10:40 Speaker 12: But maybe I am. 00:10:40 Speaker 8: The missing limb, and you know, I can't even put myself in your shoes, like I don't even know. I don't know how you did it. I don't know how you are here like I. 00:10:52 Speaker 2: We settled into the cafe, but for more privacy, we decided to head back outside to a quiet bench overlooking water, so. 00:11:06 Speaker 12: I'm in a better spot. More questions do you have first? I mean, I'm sure you've been pondering what I think. 00:11:15 Speaker 8: What I would like to know first is I briefly met your mom. Okay, yeah, I'd like to whatever you want to tell me about your mom. 00:11:27 Speaker 13: And well, my mom stayed here in campus with her mom and was tossed between her

dad, who lived in California, where I was born and raised. 00:11:43 Speaker 12: She wasn't an educated woman. 00:11:45 Speaker 11: She was a very energetic, positive, adventurous walked her own path, but because of her own education, she had to do certain things to get by life. I mean back in the day, she supposedly had married a truck driver just as big as your father, but he was from Arkansas and they got divorced. So my mom had me, and she wasn't around a lot in my life because she was on her own little journey and was scared of the family who raised you. My dad's mom, my mom's step mom, and my mom's dad. 00:12:30 Speaker 12: Why my dad worked all the time. 00:12:32 Speaker 2: What did he do? 00:12:34 Speaker 11: My dad was a regional manager for an auditing company and. 00:12:41 Speaker 12: They got divorced. Dad got custody. 00:12:44 Speaker 11: Mom wasn't around, and she traveled the United States and liked to do her own thing. Everybody loved her. She wasn't a drunk, She wasn't an alcoholic or drug addict. 00:13:00 Speaker 12: She uah. 00:13:02 Speaker 11: This is the stuff. The media don't know what I'm about to tell you. No one knows this. I haven't told anybody because they ask, but they don't. It's all been about unfortunately, it's been about you and your father. When these people tell me what they're promising me right, I was under the influence that I'm supposed to help people, but the little thirty second segments aren't long enough to help people. 00:13:29 Speaker 2: One of the things Don wanted to clarify that he believes the media got absolutely wrong was his mother, Julie's relationship with Keith. As we know, Keith broke his rules for Julie. It was the first time he'd killed someone he dated and really knew In fact, when Keith introduced Julie to Melissa or talked to Melissa about her, he'd referred to Julie as his fiance. But Don takes issue with this. 00:13:56 Speaker 12: My mom was living in Utah. 00:14:00 Speaker 11: I talked to her on February eleventh, because her birthday was February twelfth, the mine was February twentieth. There was no talk of your father. My mom was not in a relationship. She was living with a girlfriend and a kid. She was telling me that she was on her way down here to Camus to visit with their mom. She had met your father in nineteen ninety two prior, and she knew how to work the truck stops because she drove truck and did her thing, and he offered her a ride. To hear, he must not have had any pickups because they hung out in town for a couple of weeks. Okay, they were not in a relationship. 00:14:46 Speaker 2: You can hear in Don's voice how angry he is about the idea that Keith and his mother were ever together. There is also a pain that comes from the constant reminders of his mother. Everywhere he goes, he visits places she frequented, and he drives past the scene of her murder on a daily basis. 00:15:08 Speaker 12: Every day up my life since then, I tryed. I have to try buy it every day I can. Fishing in the beautiful. 00:15:20 Speaker 1: Corse, I gotta drive right by it. 00:15:26 Speaker 12: I didn't run. I faced it head on. 00:15:31 Speaker 1: I kept crushing my heart. 00:15:40 Speaker 3: The long haul trucker told a Clark County Sheriff's Office detective by phone that he strangled Julianne Winningham, forty one, while raping her in the sleeper car of his rig after gagging her with duct tape. Winningham's nude body was found March eleventh, dumped down a bank of a viewpoint along Highway fourteen in the Columbia River gor four miles east of Wasshugel. 00:16:08 Speaker 2: The scenery wasn't the only reminder of his mother's murder, so was his name. After his mom's death, Don changed his name to Leroy. It's actually part of why he was so difficult for me to track down. I had to go through Leroy to get to Don. We asked him a little bit about why he chose that name. 00:16:29 Speaker 11: I was living in San Diego, working at a car wash, had friends in bands, and just living a fun life. I was looking pot doing drugs. I was up for three days. When I got the phone call at work, I went ballistic. I pulled off kitchen sinks, punched the wood. Then I walked home and I fell in the middle of the main street and cried. So this is where Leroy comes into play. I came up here for the trials. I got a job telemarketing. They asked me if I had a nickname. I said Leroy. They put Leroy up on the board, so I started telling people my name was Leroy, even though they're seeing me every day on the news. I mean, not only did I not know anybody, but I found a job and a place to live to be able to see this to the end. 00:17:29 Speaker 12: My family was not there for me. No one's ever asked me if I was okay. 00:17:33 Speaker 14: I want to know what happily you found out. You came up here. Why did you have to go to the Morgue. 00:17:38 Speaker 11: Well, the reason I had to go to the Morgue was because my mom wasn't around a lot in my life, and I had to physically see her that way to know that she's dead, or otherwise I would still think she's on a traveling around doing her thing because we didn't talk that often. 00:17:56 Speaker 12: She wasn't around a lot. 00:17:58 Speaker 15: I'm going back to how you had to see your mom. 00:18:03 Speaker 12: I can't imagine. 00:18:04 Speaker 14: You you saw her after what? Yeah, I don't even know what she looked like. 00:18:10 Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to know. 00:18:12 Speaker 8: I want to know, sir, because you have to see it. 00:18:15 Speaker 15: I want to know what you saw. 00:18:20 Speaker 12: All right, Well, I show up. It's underneath the jail. It's really like the movies. 00:18:28 Speaker 11: Long long, long, long, long long long. They open up a room, white walls, silver table. My mom has a sheet covered up to her neck. I see from her face a mark from here to here. That's why, as black as day's night, I see shrub marks on her cheeks from where she rolled down through the berry briars. 00:19:00 Speaker 12: I also

see. 00:19:04 Speaker 11: The top of my mom's head, just sitting on top of her head because they did the aptosy on her brain, so it was just. 00:19:14 Speaker 15: There. 00:19:20 Speaker 11: That's the last time I saw my mom. 00:19:27 Speaker 10: What are you do with those images? 00:19:31 Speaker 12: Mask them? They go away. She was such a beauty lady. 00:19:42 Speaker 16: He stuck his fist down my mother's throat to make sure she was dead. Duck taped her, suffocated her, raped her, carried him around in the cap of his truck, drove up the mountain. She lost her like a fucking piece of garbage, and the next time I see her she's like that. 00:20:09 Speaker 7: I truly can't explain the anger and ate I've had over the years towards this, but I've had. I had to put it past me. I had to because otherwise I'm not going to be happy, and I need to be happy. 00:20:32 Speaker 3: I was wearing just my shoes and a shirt when I headed east. I knew she would wake up soon and then she'd really no terror. I breaked hard at a stop sign and heard her grunt. She tried to get into the front passenger seat, but fell to the floor and cut her forehead on the seat pedestal. 00:20:51 Speaker 1: A little pool of blood formed. 00:20:54 Speaker 3: I reached down and patted her on the back and said, nice of you to join me, Julie, and stay there until I stop up ahead, and then you'll find out what's going to happen to you. 00:21:20 Speaker 2: Melissa and Don had been wrestling with the past for so long, trying to come to terms with its impact on their lives, and they were both eager to share their experiences. 00:21:30 Speaker 12: I don't know what you know, I don't know much, but I don't know what you want to know. 00:21:37 Speaker 11: The Feds everybody, they figured out what trucking company he worked for. And by the way, I see that trucking company every day on the road. So you can imagine my thoughts going through. You know, I see it too, Okay, and it's got to be hard for us. So they found out what trucking company he worked for. He was on a run. He was going to go pick up a load in New Mexico. Okay, okay, So they called Hani. They said he's gonna be in New Mexico. The local police went there with the FEDS because it's out of jurisdiction. 00:22:10 Speaker 12: Did the blood. 00:22:11 Speaker 11: Urine and something else sample for him? They have to bring it back here to test it. Before they get back, he calls and says he tried to kill. 00:22:23 Speaker 12: Himself by eating a bottle of Thailand. All they go back, they arrest him, and the trials start. 00:22:33 Speaker 15: Yeah, the detectives came up to Spokane and they questioned my mom and then they they didn't tell her anything. Then she said, uh to my brother or sister, and I that your dad's in jail. Then my brother's like for what it is, she said, for murder. 00:22:56 Speaker 14: Just remember just feeling like this is this is not real? 00:22:59 Speaker 12: He had. 00:23:01 Speaker 14: I went to my uh my cot, laid down on him. Did I just cried the whole night. He had wondered who it was, what happened, how did it happen? And he had a picture A million different things in my head and I wanted answers. Nobody would just tell me. I just wanted to know. And that's why I started looking at the Orgonian and reading everything. And it was hard to read it, but in a way it was kind of a you know, a blessing in disguise, because I don't know if I could have handled hearing it from your words in real life. I think just reading it there was a there was a state of removal, you know, I was somewhat removed when I could read from a distance what was happening over here and what was happening with your life? 00:23:53 Speaker 15: This bra. 00:24:06 Speaker 9: Four pike A right, this is where it happened. 00:24:23 Speaker 12: What is this? 00:24:24 Speaker 11: This is the spot. It used to be an empty lot until two years ago. 00:24:28 Speaker 10: I thought she was found on a roof. 00:24:30 Speaker 11: Hold on, I'll show you if you stop right here. This was an empty lot, and his eighteen wheeler was parked right here. 00:24:38 Speaker 12: Okay. 00:24:39 Speaker 11: The bar he was at is just not even at the quarter of a mile up the road. My grandmother, my mom's mom, lived three blocks up the road. 00:24:47 Speaker 12: So his truck was parked here. Okay, this is where he. 00:24:52 Speaker 11: Did what he did to my mom right here in this lot. 00:24:56 Speaker 10: With it was a parking. 00:24:57 Speaker 11: Lot though, yeah, parking lot. You know, there was no store here, There was no nothing here. His truck is right here. My mom comes from the bar up the road. They talk about the money issue. 00:25:11 Speaker 10: He what was the money issue? 00:25:12 Speaker 15: What was she to me? 00:25:14 Speaker 10: Explain that to me. 00:25:16 Speaker 11: So basically, after listening to your father and saying how one of the victims asked him for money after he was already done with her, that reminded him of his wife and that's what made him snap. And I remember him saying this in one of his interviews. Well, my mom went to the bartender and he was too busy. My mom needed some money. Came to jessperson, your dad. My mom had gotten into a car accident. Your dad's signature was on the bill of sell, so my mom came to town with him. They were hanging out I'm assuming my mom had a car. 00:25:58 Speaker 12: My mom was working. Something happened. 00:26:03 Speaker 11: She went to your father for money, asking him nicely because she wasn't a gold digger or anything, and he snapped. 00:26:14 Speaker 12: Where we're going next is on Highway fourteen. 00:26:16 Speaker 11: He drove six miles out on Highway fourteen, pulled over and threw her out without no rings or nothing, just stark ass naked, and then came back, got his trailer and drove off to New Mexico. 00:26:37 Speaker 12: But your dad, your last freedom. Was your dad in this town for three weeks? Give her take. 00:26:45 Speaker 2: Did your

grandmother ever say that they were talking about getting married again. 00:26:50 Speaker 12: My mom would have never got remarried. I know it for a fact. 00:26:54 Speaker 11: That came up through your father. Cause my mom, as you can see, she was a very beautiful woman. She was a kind hearted, good soul. And that's why your dad, you. 00:27:03 Speaker 12: Said, he broke every rule that he ever had set. 00:27:06 Speaker 11: For victims, that he was going to do this too, right, My mom broke every rule because of her soul, her heart. 00:27:13 Speaker 12: You know, he felt something different with her. 00:27:32 Speaker 2: The truth when it comes to Keith is always in question. Weeks later, Melissa still had doubts about the nature of Julian Keith's relationship. Our producer Noel also made the trip to Washington State to meet Don. 00:27:49 Speaker 3: This idea of Julie being his fiance kind of keeps coming up, and it's sort of like been called in the question a few different ways by her son. For example, he Don right off the bat said that's not true. But there's a lot of he said, she said stuff in all of these tales. You kind of were skeptical of that too. 00:28:08 Speaker 8: The only thing that makes me not skeptical of them being together is the last time I saw my dad. The last time I saw my dad was at a diner, and he brought up that he was going to buy me a car, a red Pontiac, and that he was going to buy a house on the beach and that Julie and him would live there and that I could move in with him. And so the sense that he was putting this future with Julie makes me think that he saw something different in Julian, that he wanted to settle down and get married. 00:28:42 Speaker 3: But do you remember what we discovered that that wasn't his dream, that was her dream. Don kind of talked about how this is something she always talked about wanting to. 00:28:52 Speaker 11: Have her son back with her, living in the beautiful places out in California because my mom and him travel from Utah to hear and they knew each other prior, so he knew her dream. 00:29:07 Speaker 10: So he was telling me your mom's dream. The last time I saw her. 00:29:10 Speaker 8: Her last words to my dad or what about your kids? When she was pleading for her life. And I know she was trying to appeal to the man and not the monster. The fact that she was saying that makes me, you know, obviously, I know why she was pleading what about your children, you know, to try to ground them back into hey, you're a dad that. 00:29:34 Speaker 2: But she was and this is again this is your father's version. 00:29:38 Speaker 8: Yeah, we don't know what her lasts really were. 00:29:41 Speaker 2: And in the Jackalsen book, your father claims that she was saying, hey, wait, you know what about your children? I was going to be basically their mother, And one of his final insults to her is do you think I would let you raise my kids? But she wasn't good enough. But again, it's this ongoing theme that you've pointed out that your dad has to degrade all of his victims in some way shape or form that they had it coming. 00:30:13 Speaker 8: Absolutely. So the truth is I don't know. What we do know is that Julie was murdered by my dad. Her title of fiancee or girlfriend or friend is not relevant, really, I. 00:30:25 Speaker 3: Think, I mean, I think it's relevant in that it's the one that he interacted with outside of just a killer victim relationship, at least as far as what we know. 00:30:36 Speaker 8: Well, I know they were friends. I think that's what they were friends for years, and that's what I think haunts me more than the fiancee title, is that this was a multi year relationship, not one of his fleeting girlfriend situations or someone he barely knew. And if he could do that to her, he could do that to anybody. 00:31:06 Speaker 3: From I the creation of a serial killer by Jack Olsen. I said, you don't love me, Julie, you never have. She sniffed and said, what about your children? I was going to look after your kids. 00:31:23 Speaker 1: I laughed. 00:31:24 Speaker 3: I said, you can't even look after yourself. How could I trust you with my kids? I was thinking, how do I keep running into these kind of women? All this time? She's staring at me with tears in her eyes. I removed the tape around her ankles, but I left the tape on her arms so she couldn't go after my eyes with her long fingernails. 00:31:54 Speaker 8: Uh oh, I want to ask what you don't have to answer her phone? 00:31:57 Speaker 10: Okay, what were your mom's last time words? 00:32:01 Speaker 12: Was that said? No? Have you wondered that? 00:32:07 Speaker 11: I've never thought about that for the simple fact of maybe that the fact that she was duct tape and suffocated and didn't have a last word. So I've never thought about what my mom's last thoughts or words were. In my head, she asked him for money and that made him snap, and that's how my mom ended up dead. 00:32:29 Speaker 12: So that is my interpretation. 00:32:33 Speaker 10: My mom said something yesterday when he tries to shame my mom by publishing their intimacy their sex life, and I said to my mom, I'm like, doesn't that make you feel victimized? You know, like that dad's doing this? 00:32:50 Speaker 17: And she said, well, it's not true, and I thought, yeah, we only have his word for what happened because he was the only par there and the person who did that. 00:33:02 Speaker 11: And so but I believe what he did to my mom is true because of the way his actions and his wording. 00:33:08 Speaker 12: And now, after you telling me how your father is. That's why he was supposed to so specific in court. 00:33:15 Speaker 11: Yeah, I mean, can you imagine my rage hearing this man say he stuck his fist down my mom's throat to make sure she was dead. 00:33:24 Speaker 10: No, no. 00:33:27 Speaker 11: Cammage, And then I left her in the back of my truck for eight to twelve hours before I disposed of her body. 00:33:33 Speaker 10:

So the autops had come from that. 00:33:43 Speaker 11: I came up here on an airplane and I went to every bar across this whole city, all the way looking for your father. Didn't know who did it, because they didn't know at this time, because this was less than twenty four hours after finding my mom. I went on a every bar. 00:34:01 Speaker 10: Who are you looking for? 00:34:04 Speaker 12: What did you think you. 00:34:04 Speaker 14: Were looking for? 00:34:07 Speaker 11: Being one hundred percent real with you, I don't know. I like I said, I literally had been up for three days a day prior. 00:34:16 Speaker 10: You're just going in hoping that you would just see somebody and they would you would know. 00:34:21 Speaker 11: I'm assuming I can't answer that question because it's so long ago, you know what I mean. But I remember one night in the beginning, singing karaoke Pat Benatar singing, hit me with your best shot, like to the whole. 00:34:33 Speaker 12: You know, hit me, Come on, bring it on. 00:34:35 Speaker 11: You know what I mean. I'm facing this head on. You know what I mean. You think you got something for me? Bring it on, Bring it on, Bring it on. 00:34:49 Speaker 2: Julie was found absolutely by chance, when a local resident stopped to take a scenic picture by the winding roadside where she'd been tossed, discovering her naked and beaten body. 00:35:02 Speaker 12: Imagine, so here comes a twenty one mile keep going. Oh, I know it all. See that turnout right there? 00:35:12 Speaker 11: Come not this one, the next one, because you got to think about it. 00:35:17 Speaker 12: He has an eighteen wheeler truck, so he has. 00:35:21 Speaker 11: That space to turn around right to go back and get his trailer. Yeah, and if he goes any farther, he's into this Comania County. 00:35:29 Speaker 12: So he pulls over right now. 00:35:33 Speaker 11: You got to understand, the hillside is twenty some years different than it is now. 00:35:37 Speaker 12: So he pulls his truck over. This is where they found my mom's cigarette butts and stuff. 00:35:42 Speaker 11: And so what he basically told me was after he did all that, he opened up the door and threw her down there like a rag doll, right down there. 00:35:54 Speaker 12: And if you look let's. 00:35:56 Speaker 9: Go out there. 00:35:57 Speaker 11: Imagine these trees right here, not over twenty years ago, right, someone stopping to take a picture. He just happens to live up on the hill. He stops to take a picture, looks down this terrain. 00:36:11 Speaker 17: And sees my mom. 00:36:16 Speaker 11: So your dad pulled over right here, disposed of her. 00:36:20 Speaker 10: That he would have had to get over this barrier. 00:36:24 Speaker 11: Well, if you think about this, your dad's truck is an eighteen wheeler. Correct. Your dad is two hundred and fifty pounds at the time. He knows how to drive a truck. He can get this close enough, open the door. Your dad could throw one hundred pounds like it's nothing. 00:36:41 Speaker 12: I'm sure tumbled down. Remember I told you the brush marks. 00:36:50 Speaker 9: On her cheeks is from this. 00:36:52 Speaker 12: It's from this. 00:36:56 Speaker 11: So I came up here, I came kicking push, I came looking for anything. 00:37:01 Speaker 12: I could find just out of sheer. I don't know what. 00:37:06 Speaker 10: And this is really thick. 00:37:08 Speaker 12: Yeah, like I said, twenty years yeah, this is built up. 00:37:11 Speaker 11: It probably wasn't as high, you know what I mean, The toss wouldn't have been as far, and. 00:37:15 Speaker 12: They would have never a founder. How would they have founder? 00:37:19 Speaker 11: By the grace of God, that you were saying earlier doesn't exist. He made that man stop and take a picture, because no one ever stops here, No one, no. 00:37:30 Speaker 6: Because there's not really a scenic view either with the river, because the trees are blocking the view. 00:37:35 Speaker 8: To even take a picture like this wouldn't be where I would stop to take a picture. This isn't scenic at all. 00:37:43 Speaker 11: So what made that person stop to take a picture? Who lives right up here every day? 00:37:47 Speaker 8: That is strange that they would just come down here and take a picture. If they live here and see this view every. 00:37:53 Speaker 11: Day, Why did that happen? That's one of the questions. They had nothing to do with it. They didn't help your dad or any e both. Why did the universe tell that person to stop right here? Because it was time for it to stop. He needed to be stopped. 00:38:11 Speaker 8: And if your mom, if your mom's body wasn't found, he. 00:38:14 Speaker 11: Would still be out there today. 00:38:24 Speaker 1: Hro cre. 00:38:29 Speaker 14: Gay was so vaults in our just secrets combinations. 00:38:44 Speaker 3: Now we can't check out our hearts. 00:38:51 Speaker 1: Talk them tie it in to. 00:38:57 Speaker 2: Time. 00:39:12 Speaker 1: Happy Face is a production of How Stuff Works. 00:39:15 Speaker 3: Executive producers are Melissa Moore, Lauren Bride Pacheco, Mangesha Ticketdour and Will Pearson. Supervising producer is Noel Brown. Music by Claire Campbell, Paige Campbell and Hope for a Golden Summer. Story editor is Matt Riddle. Audio editing by Chandler Mays and Noel Brown. Assistant editor is Taylor Chicoigne. Special thanks to Phil Stanford, the publishers of the Oregonian Newspaper, and the Carlisle Family. 00:39:43 Speaker 16: Airo Criosh 00:39:48 Speaker 17: Guys Votillutious